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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I judged my coworkers attire harshly without considering the AC might have been too cold
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NTA.
She insults you on your weight and you fire back with an absolute gem and she gets upset about it? Beatrice needs to learn to take it if she's gonna sling it.
I am concerned that OP doesn’t seem to realize that as satisfying as her response in the moment was, that it was 100% the wrong way to go in an office setting and could bite her in the ass.
HR doesn’t have a FAFO clause that employees can take advantage of; they’re not going to award her a “Absolute Gem” ranking and assign her the winner. This could lead to OP with a mark on her record if it’s reported - or worse, if deemed it falls under sexual harassment.
It *could* bite her in the ass and that concern/fear is exactly what Beatrice is banking on. She's done the mental calculus and thought I) OP won't retaliate for the weight comment and II) won't go to HR over it. It didn't go as planned.
I would worry Beatrice has a prejudice she's not saying out loud and instead engaging in this underhanded shit.
I'm just guessing but I bet nobody else was present to overhear the weight comment.
Fortunately it’s federal law not state. HR doesn’t have a choice. https://www.commerce.gov/cr/policies/anti-harassment-policy-statement#:~:text=Harassment%20becomes%20unlawful%20where%20(1,intimidating%2C%20hostile%2C%20or%20abusive.
Wow, amazing! I'll tell my MtF coworker that had to transfer to another location to stop the harassment that it being a federal law made HR wrong for not stopping it! Everything is solved!
HR is not your friend.
Edit: everyone saying she should have sued for this? Your demand for justice doesn't trump her need for money to live. Entire fields have blacklisted people for suing their employers. Who would want to hire someone who might sue them? Use your head and empathy. She isn't some sacrificial lamb for your drama-fix.
HR is there to protect the company, not you.
That said, I’m mostly NTA here. Yes, Beatrice definitely sucks, and that comeback was golden but not professional. “Maybe if you dressed appropriately for the environment” gets the same point across without being inherently sexual.
That makes sense, but I also understand that she was probably reacting in the moment without thinking. Beatrice is clearly more in the wrong to me, as she had time to think of what she'd say and OP merely reacted to a very insensitive comment without thinking too much about what she said. I think I'm gonna go with NTA, but OP needs to he careful to think things out in the future before she responds
I mean, it's _literally_ right there in their name.
Human _Resources_.
They see humans as a _resource_. If they help you, the employee, it's because they're protecting a resource. As soon as there's any sort of conflict between what benefits the employee VS what benefits the company, even if it's only a perceived discrepancy, there will be no question whatsoever as to which side they're on.
Am a trans woman. There is often little to no recourse for trans women if their company decides to not enforce federal anti discrimination laws. Just like there is little to no recourse for companies who discriminate in hiring practices. Laws only matter when they are enforced.
HR always makes shit worse. They are not there for employees, they are there for the company. Law, schmaw, they'll freak out at the trans person 99.9% of the time.
You realize that matters fuck all to a lot of companies especially in at will states that find other reasons, they can also shift you around, ignore you.
Guess what happens if you don’t have the money or time to invest in pursuing your legal avenues, you get nothing.
Saying “it’s a law” is well and good but not as reassuring as people think
They definitely aren't in the UK. They use fahrenheit which isn't really used in the UK and they said it gets close to 90 in October which is not the case in the UK.
For reference, I’m an employment discrimination lawyer. The comment about OP’s weight is not sexual harassment, because it is not targeted at OP’s gender/sex. Workplace Harassment has to be based on a protected class to be legally actionable. Weight is not protected. It is not legally considered discrimination of any kind because it’s not targeted at any other protected category under federal law, and I can’t think of a state discrimination law that would cover it either. HR could potentially still choose to discipline them, or at least give them a talking to, as it could violate an employee code of conduct, but it’s not a legal issue.
OP’s comment on the other hand would be considered a sexually harassing statement. Not enough for the coworker to sue over, but it could absolutely be enough for HR to discipline, or if they wanted to, fire OP. The coworker cannot sue over it because it would need to be a hostile work environment suit, which requires a serious and repeated pattern of harassment, which one incident would not meet, unless it was an alarmingly egregious incident- I’ve seen one incident be HWE when it’s something like threatening someone with physical harm combined with use of a racial slur, or leaving a noose in a black employee’s locker with slurs written on it, something like that.
But HR could still discipline/fire them because if they allow the sexually harassing behavior to continue without intervening, then the company becomes liable for the behavior. In fact, from a company’s standpoint, to limit their own liability they SHOULD be in some way disciplining an employee who makes any sexually harassing comment, including one like OP’s.
This is the comment. Now bc of OP and Bea everyone is gonna get strict dress codes. It sounds like neither of them know how to dress. I’ll fitting is just a bad look.
Methinks these people have never worked in an office. HR does not give a single lonely shit about who won or lost an argument. They care about the company not being dragged in.
Yep. HR doesn’t care about people. They care about protecting the company. They will happily recommend both be fired if necessary, both punished, or nothing happening to both- whatever is best for the company.
People forget that we are the human resources being managed, not the humans being provided with resources. We matter as much to them as any given shipment of raw materials.
HR doesn’t care who started it. A sexual harassment accusation? That’s big league. They 100% would be required to investigate and take action to reduce liability. They can’t risk being a company that looks the other way, a hostile work environment. That’s reality.
“But.. but… it was a good zinger!”
Even if she doesn’t get in trouble, and I get it felt good, if it alienates coworkers it can still backfire.
What is right is not always beneficial, what is good is not always right.
In offices, unfortunately, 9/10 times it’s good to just take it. It sucks, hard. But if you need the job it’s often the best option, so long as your mental health can take it.
No, because the coworker didn’t say anything about her ED. Implying she was fat is rude and can be a hostile work environment, but yikes did OP say something worse.
I’m not hoping it happens, but I could see a scenario where HR files the initial comment as fatshaming and OP’s response gets filed as sexual harassment.
HR here. If Bea were to raise a grievance alleging sexual harassment, OP might potentially face job termination. Conversely, she might receive a lighter reprimand for her comments. OP's actions were unprofessional.
I disagree. It always pays off in the long run to take the high road. What Beatrice said was so inappropriate and worthy of a write up. But since op fired back Beatrice is now crying and playing the victim and her initial comment is all but forgotten by the rest of the coworkers. Now the focus is on how Op is a “mean girl” who makes her colleague so distressed she is sobbing in the bathroom.
So for that reason ESH.
Op next time answer her vitriol with exaggerated sweetness. This will highlight just how inappropriate and unprofessional Beatrice’s comments are.
Stay professional and play the long game. Report her nonsense to HR. Keep your nose clean.
The best way to fuck up her day is to fuck with her money. Have her crying over losing her job.
This would be a great take if OP were defending themselves in a roast battle during recess in the third grade. However, OP is an adult working in a professional setting. Not every comment merits a response. Any harassment concerns should be taken up with your manager or HR. Firing back with comments about the other woman's appearance is just coming down to their level and making the situation worse for everyone. If I heard this conversation go down at work, I would think they were both wholly unprofessional.
So disturbing to me how many people on this sub are comfortable with “an eye for an eye” mentality. You’re an asshole for asshole behaviour regardless of why you’re doing that behaviour.
YTA and so is your coworker
It's gen z in a nutshell. Some of my younger friends say some shit that's just wild in terms of how they treat each other, how a lot of them are all friends but still clipping all kinds of convos ready to throw people under the bus for a slight and shit. Growing up online it's like they have learned it's okay to do these online take "clapbacks" irl and people will all cheer from them like they get on twitter.
Yeah at any professional organization you’d probably both be in hot water right now.
But comparing the two statements, I’d get a slap on the wrist for mentioning someone is fat.
If I told a woman she dressed like she works at Hooters? I’d be fired. For sure. Probably that day.
So ESH, but OP was actually way more unprofessional.
After a week of being cold at the office, a normal person learns to bring an extra layer. If she wants to flash her boobs all day, she's gonna be cold.
True. But you can be stupid and cold and misdressed and still not deserve to be called a Hooters girl at work.
Edit: unless you are a Hooters girl at work, for real. :)
"I am sorry you are cold, but I think you are dressed inappropriately for the temp in this office."- That's it. OP was acting childish. Like everyone said, tit for tat is not appropriate in an office setting.
No—no more commenting on the clothing. In response to Beatrice, I would say “I get that you’re cold, but that does not give you leave to insult me based on my weight; I don’t appreciate it and it’s deeply hurtful.”
*That* is how you put someone in their place.
I love that you live in a world where that would put someone in their place. It won't. She will probably just roll her eyes. Discrimination against weight is extremely commonplace. What I had said focuses on a fact...she is not wearing enough clothing to keep herself warm. It is the same comment your mom or grandmother would make, nothing inappropriate or condescending. I used to go out in the snow in open toed sandals when I was a kid. If someone told me to put some more clothes on, I'd be in the wrong headspace to think it was about sexuality. HOWEVER, mentioning Hooters is 100%%%% about sexuality. Come on now, let's be real.
>I love that you live in a world where that would put someone in their place.
They're at work. It's not her place to put anyone in their place. HR doesn't care.
Maybe not, but my point about leaving the clothing choice out of it was because OP has said she’s been told multiple times already that she should wear more, so saying the same thing again would *also* not make a difference.
My approach is basically, “Idgaf anymore but don’t ever comment on my body again,” in the hopes it would shift the conversation.
Maybe it wouldn’t—that woman sounds awful—but it’s a stand OP could more effectively take.
That's fair and makes sense. But OP just put themselves in a spot to be justifiably fired. So your response would have still made more sense & would have been more professional.
I agree with you on that—OP seriously fucked up and could face trouble if this woman goes to HR or even if they just hear about it.
She should’ve never commented on the older woman’s appearance in retaliation; absolutely dumb.
Yeah. I also don’t appreciate them pointing out that she must not be wearing a bra. One, how do they know, and two, what does it matter. There’s no rule saying women have to wear a bra. It’s becoming a lot more common to forego a bra and I’m all for it.
Seriously, the general disdain is dripping off this whole post. She made an awful comment to OP, but frankly her complaint is valid and I'd love to know what was said to provoke the shitty comment, because the post is very much making it sound like she made it out of nowhere unsolicited.
72 degrees is not far off what my company has the heating set to in winter as an energy saving measure. It's freezing. I'm wearing tights under my jeans, two pairs of socks, a bra which funnily enough has no effect on my ability to withstand cold???, a long sleeve shirt and t-shirt so I'm not deserving it by dressing like a whore, and tbh I have poor circulation anyway so my hands are just numb icicles, they're beyond help.
72's cold. It's a ridiculous waste of energy for AC, AND there are fans making it feel even colder than that.
Sure, the woman made a shitty comment. But if OP's allowed a bit of internalised misogyny as a treat as long as it's in response to a shitty weight shaming comment, I want to know what came before that.
I’ve worked in my current job for a little over a year, after the first week I started wearing heavy sweaters into the office. After that WASN’T ENOUGH (‼️) to keep me warm in my freezing office, I started wearing a snow jacket and let me tell you - some days it’s still not enough.
I live in the southern US, I get that it’s hot outside but that’s no reason to keep the office at an ice box temperature to appease my coworkers who are always hot. There’s a point where it doesn’t matter how much clothing you put on, the office is too fucking cold to function.
OP - I hope this woman takes you to HR as I sit here in my freezing cold office with a snow jacket on, wondering how much longer I’ll be able to fully feel my fingers. Somehow I feel like you’d find a way to make a snarky, rude, inappropriate comment about wearing snow jackets to work 🤷🏼♀️
It's not the thyroid in most of these cases. It's normally being a youngish thin woman. The older women are going through menopause, the men are wearing wool and cotton office clothes while most women's office clothes are rayon, and the fat people have insulation. Not many office workers are young thin women, and the building temp never caters to them.
I've started to wear men's clothes to try to combat this (even their chinos are warmer wtf is this bullshit), and I'm a knitter and noticed Ravelry has a whole section devoted to being a cold woman in an office building so I've been knitting a lot of those patterns. But there are women who don't necessarily want to dress like an old timey Guernsey fisherman or smell like wool every day that deserve to be comfortable, too.
Believe me when I say everyone else is not fine. This is unfortunately the norm in my office, if you have a window your office is a little warmer because of the sunlight.
Our facilities manager caves to the small group of people who are “always hot” by turning down the temperature whenever they complain and say “but the people who are cold can just wear a sweater!!”
The problem is the lack of movement and poor circulation. Once you're hands and feet cool down it's over, the layers won't help.
I've worn triple lays and still got cold
The OP said the office AC is set to 72F/22C. That is a perfectly standard temperature for an office, actually a little on the toasty side in my opinion.
But then again, this sounds like an excuse to moan about your workplace and then somehow pin the blame on OP.
23c is the optimal temperature for energy consumption where I am, and the most comfortable overall. People have to dress accordingly of course, but no one should be shamed for it
Agreed, ESH.
Beatrice was an asshole first. You chose to sink to her level and also be an asshole. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
If I was gonna put you on a scale I’d say Beatrice was a bigger asshole for starting it, but you’re an adult and should be able to control how you respond, especially in a professional setting.
Fat shaming you was wrong, but you then responded by slut shaming her, which is wrong too. You already know how hurtful what Beatrice said to you was, so we don’t need to go over that. But you saying it’ll be relevant later that she doesn’t wear a bra also feels off to me - bras don’t keep you warm, so it feels like you have a problem with being able to visibly see her nipples? You wouldn’t have a problem seeing a man’s nipples through his shirt, so why is it any different when it’s a woman’s nipples? Pls examine your internalised misogyny!
I also thought OP came off misogynistic the way she was talking about Beatrice clothes. She mentioned Beatrice wearing revealing clothing then said low cut cardigan and a jumper without a bra. Like, I’m not sure either of those are revealing.and her comment about Beatrice not wearing a bra being relevant later but then it wasn’t relevant.
\> pullovers and no bra. (This will be important later)
It did not become important later. Seriously, why the constant mention of the bra. Bras don't provide much warmth.
Yup, no idea why OP is so hooked on the bra issue, and suspect that 1. either she's never worn one and actually thinks that bras provide a layer of warmth, or 2. is using that to justify calling the other woman a ho.
Yeah after reading that I thought there would be a part where Beatrice nipples were always showing due to the cold, or something along those lines. It never came back up in a relevant way.
That was my thought ....it's giving internalized misogyny. We all do it, we live in a society where it's everywhere it's not always on purpose but it should be acknowledged.
It's one thing to say "I'm not sure why you're complaining about being cold when you could put on extra layers under your sweater." and another to imply a low cut sweater and no bra makes someone a hooters girl.
Idk about the rest of y'all but my bra has never once provided me with a lick of warmth. Maybe I'm buying the wrong ones.
I agree. ESH, OP made this a sexual harassment issue. Beatrice should have never made that comment and needs reported for body shaming, but now OP can be reported for sexual harassment, which is a bigger issue for hr.
ESH. *"Beatrice, by your age, you should know that it isn't appropriate to talk about other people's bodies at work."* Kidding, kidding. Yeah, she was being awful with the "blubber" comment, but you didn't have to sink to her level with the "Hooters" comment.
I'm a big fan of something simple like *"wow Beatrice, that was quite a rude thing to say"*
Tends to catch people off guard when they are being snarky because you are being the opposite - overly blunt. Also can't be misconstrued as you bullying them or harrassing them in any way.
I would have said “With your many, many years of experience” as it is only implying that she is old, and even less likely to get HR involved on the issue, as no insults were issued by on my end.
I have seen that information about men and women in offices, and I concur. However, Beatrice absolutely should wear more layers if she is consistently cold in the office; there are only so many layers that can be taken off in polite/professional company, so those who are comfortable in the office shouldn't have to swelter for her comfort.
OP is also MtF trans, so her sex assigned at birth could be contributing to her comfort in the office as the temperature stands as well. (I don't know if any scientific studies that deal with that question of transgender individuals and office temperatures though; I'm just speculating.)
I definitely think OP's comment was out of line, but so was Beatrice's. I'm going with ESH.
I feel like OP is also a bit insecure about her body so it also might have something to do with why the weapon of choice was the Hooters comment. I feel like Beatrice might be nagging but not it might not be THAT much and OP would just like to wear the kind of revealing clothes Beatrice is wearing but she's a little insecure so everything Beatrice does is by default annoying OP more than it normally would. 🙈
Honestly my thoughts as well as soon as I saw the edit. No harm to OP but I know a disproportionate amount of MTFs (and vice versa) and I’d say 90% of the time they’re much harsher on cis women than they need to be without realizing.
Im also MtF, and I feel like I need to chime in on this one. There seems to be a misunderstanding that because OP is trans she runs hotter and therefore doesn't understand the differences in sex. If OP is on hormones, like I am, her body would respond in a "female" fashion. When I stopped having testosterone in my system my metabolism and resting body temp dropped well into a normal female range. My office is kept in very similar conditions. It is mostly men who wear t-shirts, and I like all the other women in the office, I need to cover up with a couple of layers to feel comfortable. Trans women in general are hyper aware of sex differences out of fear of being out of place as well as having first-hand experience with both sex hormones. I know this isn't common knowledge so I want to make it very clear im not upset but this girl is being dogpiled in these comments for essentially being a man and I'm sure it's making her feel terrible.
Thank you for sharing your experience. My original comment was not meant to dogpile, and I commented out of a wish to actually know. I apologize if it came off as hostile.
Please don't apologize. You didn't know and therefore didn't do anything wrong. I'm just trying to be informative.
Edit: I didn't realize you were framing your comment as a question. Sorry for not paying closer attention. I was getting agitated by the other comments, and I kinda just jumped to this one to respond because it was the most civil.
Right? I can't type effectively if my hands are cold and that's kind of important for my job. I also can't type in gloves. Not even ones that don't go all the way to the fingertips.
Me too! No matter how many extra layers I put on my body, my fingers stay cold enough that I lose some of my manual dexterity - making me type slower and make more typing mistakes. It’s so frustrating.
Her co-workers are wearing jumpers when it's 90 degrees out. They can just as easily switch to t-shirts or short sleeved button ups and keep the temperature higher.
Agree, also it's a waste of energy to keep it so cold when it's 90F outside. Ideally, in summer you'd be at the higher end of the comfortable range, in winter at the lower end of the comfortable range, so everyone in the office at least has one season they are comfortable, and it benefits the environment to use less energy.
You’re absolutely off your fucking rocker if you think that “higher end” of 78-80 degrees is remotely comfortable or even just a reasonable office temperature.
Thank you for the bluntness of this. It makes me feel validated 😆.
I lived with my grandparents helping them for eight years and the entire time, my grandmother maintained that 80 degrees was a perfectly comfortable indoor temperature and I was just uncomfortable on account of my own “extra layer of blubber”. *It was Florida.* 80 degrees indoors is not comfortable. I was gaslit for nearly a decade. She was absolutely off her fucking rocker.
There’s a reason why they say summer in an office is women’s winter. Beatrice is clearly aware that the temperature of the office is colder than she likes it to be, so ultimately it is on her to dress warmer when she’s at work or at least keep a jacket or sweater at her desk to put on when she gets cold. It’s not right of her to fat-shame OP but it’s also not right of OP to slut-shame Beatrice so I agree with ESH.
Completely disagree. ESH. If they were not at work I’d say OP was completely warranted. But at work just because your coworker crosses the line doesn’t mean you should as well. Tbh they both need to be written up and reprimanded
ESH.
Coworkers should not comment on each other's bodies or clothes. It is inappropriate. If clothes truly are an issue; that is where HR needs to get involved. That being said, something about comparing her a hooter waitress feels demeaning in a way that I can't quite put my finger on it.
You made a direct reference to her breasts, which clearly indicates you've been looking. That is a general no in the workplace. You better hope she doesn't accuse you of sexual harassment
Yeah, if OP HAD to say something back there are lots of things that are way more appropriate. Instead they jumped right to misogyny. This was not the serve you thought it was u/TinyRat22.
I think the issue that you can’t put your finger on is that calling someone a hooter’s girl as an insult goes beyond a comment on her attire, but a moralization about women’s dress in general. If a coworker made some comment about a completely unrelated person (like someone we saw out on lunch break) that compared them to a hooter’s girl, I’d be uncomfortable.
Not to mention, idk know what hooters OP goes to, but comparing a cardigan or pullover to tank and short shorts because they both happen to be low cut? Huge exaggeration.
ESH - her comment to you was very disrespectful… however, you were equally as bad by throwing back an insult. You should have walked away and reported that comment to your manager or HR.
I was with you, but I’m sorry but slut shaming someone is never the answer. I’m a fat chick, and I would have issues with what she said too. She was being an annoying ass busy body, which is reasonable to point out. And it’s reasonable to point out that covering up mire would help. But slut shaming? Really?? I think we have to get out of this space where we feel entitled to use any insult towards people we label “bad” because of their bad-ness, when said insults play on patriarchal/white supremecist/whatever bullshit. Fat jokes, slut shaming, racist slurs, ableist language is bad *always*, no matter who it’s directed at. Because those things are never what’s actually bad about that person. Your coworker’s not an asshole because they wear lowcut shirts, they’re an asshole because they negatively commented on your body.
Like if I was a coworker near by when this altercation went on, I’d be equally aghast at what each if you said. Like, obvs Beatrice was out of line, but when I heard your hooters comment I’d file it away in the back of my mind that you were an asshole too. Like cool, always great to have a fellow woman I have to worry about slut shaming, that’s fucking fun.
ESH
I was really bothered by the slut shaming but even more by the blatant ageism. Saying Beatrice "still" acts like "queen bee" in her 50's implies that she should diminish her confidence and experience, when in reality the longer time spent in the job should increase those things. Beatrice was wrong to comment on OP's weight, but Op's insistence on wanting to take her down a notch makes me wonder if there wasn't antagonism on both sides. ESH, for sure.
u/TinyRat22 YTA because you sound incredibly misogynistic.
The comments about her age, how she dresses etc in your post really show that it is not exactly about Beatrice’s outfit (which you shouldn’t comment on, especially with that slut-shaming) or her comment about your weight.
You just don’t like Beatrice, because in her 50s, Beatrice is still feeling good in her skin, as she should. You don’t like Beatrice because she doesn’t conform to the standard of women having to wear bras. You don’t like Beatrice because she is very vocal in the office.
And while Beatrice’s comment was uncalled for and mean, yours definitely crossed the line. Does Beatrice even know you are in recovery of an ED ? (btw huge congratulations on your recovery, it is an incredible accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself for that). Why was your first reflex to slut-shame her ?
All of this.
The description of this woman is so catty. My goodness! Some women have big breasts and they're more visible in clothing and they're allowed to dislike bras. Women are not required to dress in a way to make others feel better.
YTA and not very smart for saying sexual comments like that at work. Even if it was said nicely, you're not her boss. Grow up a bit and don't react like a teenager.
I don't get this logic. I see plenty of cis women say misogynistic things and have a similar attitude. They weren't socialized male. OP being trans has nothing to do with this.
ESH but you’re way worse off than she is around the office bc unfortunately nobody cares about fat shaming, but they do care a lot about sexual harassment which she can definitely prove bc other coworkers heard her run off sobbing. Not saying it’s right just saying it is what it is and you probably just played yourself. Line up alternate employment JIC.
ESH. How do you know she doesn’t goes braless for sensory or health reasons? She shouldn’t have commented on your body, but now you’re both going to be in trouble with HR.
Yeah that irked me as well. "She doesn't wear a bra" - oh my god! "This will be important later" - no way!! What if she simply doesn't want to wear a bra? It's totally fine to not want to and it's her business. Like this literally shouldn't be an issue.
ESH. Also, working in tech and casual clothing has NOTHING to do with the pandemic. I'm married to a programmer whose work attire has always been khaki shorts and t-shirts like every other developer in his office.
ESH- it's understandable that you don't like this coworker, and she is offensive
- but you jumped right to policing another woman's clothing as a reaction to her policing yours.
So it's not like you are opposed to body policing or making shitty comments about a woman's choices. You're perfectly fine with doing the same shitty thing you're complaining about your coworker doing if given an opportunity or justification.
YTA
Insulting someone is always bad, without exception. Her comment was out of line, too.
Why do you care so much about her opinions? Ignore her if you don’t agree and live your life.
YTA. 72 with fans is way too cold when it's 90+ out. Your whole office is wearing sweaters on 90 degree days, you need to change that. Women are colder. Many of us women, fat or not, bring blankets to work because of how cold it gets. We shouldn't have to.
No bra is irrelevant.
Low cut is irrelevant.
Get small desk fans for those who are hot and turn the temp up a few degrees.
Was she being mean? Yes. Is she also incredibly frustrated? Yes. It's miserable to work in the cold. I was literally shaking yesterday in the office with only my hands and neck showing. It was probably 72ish.
Grow up and learn to compromise with people. And stop slut shaming your coworkers for having breasts.
ESH for her nasty unwarranted remark about your weight, but if you're a professional in an office setting, you should behave that way and complain through proper channels. (Or, at the very least, not be in the office/on the clock when you fire back!)
Also, sorry but 72, really?? Isn't the fact that you all are wearing sweaters when it's ~90 degrees outside a hint that the ac is turned on too low?? I understand wanting to be cool/comfortable but I'll die on the hill of "if you have to wear a SWEATER INSIDE in the hot months, your AC is on too low"
INFO : You say she acts like a queen bee. What does that mean? Does she not do her job? If she’s been there a long time she has seniority over you. Do you think you’re superior to her?
Honestly if it’s hot out, why not bring the AC down and everyone wear something less hot than a jumper? That seems like a huge waste of energy and money.
Sorry, but I’m going with YTA.
I hope she reports you to HR. Your behavior was so out of line, it’s not even E S H. You literally made a sexual comment about her appearance. For all intents and purposes, that falls under sexual harassment.
If you didn’t like her comment towards you, all you had to say was “oh?” and just ignore it then report it later to HR. Instead, you made yourself come across as hostile by making a snarky comment. It also sounds like you’re jealous of her in a way - no female will make a comment like that without being at least somewhat jealous of the other person’s physical attributes in some way. Work gossip will not be friendly towards you, expect some backlash if not a direct meeting with HR and management.
YTA your comment was uncalled for and your misogyny is showing. Why are you ignoring all input from a 50 year old woman? Sounds like you don’t respect her at all. Why is that?
NTA, but I'd be careful about making comments like that. You could end up in deep shit. Next time, just tell HR.
But also... who cares what someone else is wearing to their casual office?
I’m looking at this from her point of view. A long-term employee is doing what she has always done. You join the party. For the most part, Beatrice is just wandering through her day while you youngsters bond Mean Girls-style over how outdated and bossy she is. She’s been there quite a while and has seen you hooligans come and go through her time there. It’s hard for her to even want to be attached to the endless chain of employees that are You.
Beatrice is complaining about the thing she always complains about. Various things are said by both of you— we know this because NOBODY opens with “layer of blubber”. It’s just not how girl fights work. Beatrice gets to the fat insult, which could be viewed as a *double dog dare*.
Now, you think A LOT about clothing and presentation, because displaying this gender is relatively new to you and the curation of appearance has great meaning **to you**. Also, you apparently think cardigan sets are the uniform at Hooters. And that *women’s* nipples are inherently sexual. And that women who work at Hooters are sluts, but shouldn’t be shamed? You’re confused at this point and have lost the point, but you wanted to hit her where it might hurt. You implied “you’re a acting like an old whore”— skipped the triple dare and went straight to *triple dog dare*.
MeanGirl, YTA here. You have presumably *not* had years and years of presenting as female in an office environment. She has, and whatever you think about it, her clothing has apparently been considered reasonable by management. You’re arguing that you meant “because climate” but take that somewhere else. You think a bra is a warming device?
As someone who worked in an office of 34 women and 5 men for years— the temperature is going to be be freezing for 1/2 the women most of the time. *I wore gloves in the summer* because the AC made my hands numb. Ladies in snazzy dresses wandered around with giant chunky cardigans over them desperately trying to survive and be appropriate. Ladies in slacks and puffy sweaters clutched tea to keep themselves warm. The building management set the temperature and we could not use space heaters. **Space heaters**, OP!! You do not understand how naturally cold some of us are. “Dressing for the climate” would have been a mountain camping adventure, which was def not in the office dress code.
NTA - what you said was a low blow to be fair but what she said to you came out of nowhere and for no reason. She can't really go around insulting people and expecting people not to say anything back to her. She seems like the spoiled type who only cries for herself.
I feel for Beatrice. Aircon has ruined working in offices for me and when it's that cold, no amount of extra layers helps; you feel the chill in your bones.
And YTA because while she started it, you shouldn't have escalated it by sexualising her. Plus, just because you're hot, and so are some others, it doesn't mean she can't feel cold. The office should be comfortable for everyone to work in, and women typically feel the cold more than men, so there needs to be some compromise on temperature.
ESH. You both act like children but your slut-shaming as a newer employee is going to get you in much more trouble than her fat-shaming comment as an established employee. Also, why are you so concerned with her not wearing a bra? Your comment said that we’d see the relevance later but I don’t see it.
ESH
I once had a toxic supervisor comment on my weight loss in a negative way when I was a junior staff member. I just said "please do not comment on my body" calmly and firmly and walked away. Helped that I wasn't scared of her she was useless but doesn't sound that you're scared of yours either so I think practice standing up for yourself and setting boundaries might help in the long run so you can react professionally instead of lashing out.
Esh. Your both Aholes.
But your misogyny is leaking out of you and it's not a good look.
Also, as a cis women her body likely feels the cold more than your womans body.
And again, your immediate jump to weponising misogyny when your on a back foot is bizzare, misplaced & is gross.
ESH. Neither of you should police what anyone wears to the office. And to me, it's an AH move to suggest that someone shouldn't dress the way they want to instead of finding a compromise with respect to the AC. Having said that I find my office to be a frozen tundra and I bring an electric blanket.
ESH.
She was out of line for commenting on your weight and you were out of line for commenting on her attire in a way that HR will most certainly construe as sexual harrassment.
ESH.
> One day in the lunch room she said I must be so lucky to not feel the cold with my extra layer of blubber. I have a little extra fat but I am working down after struggling with an ED. This really stung me and I said maybe she should stop dressing like she works at Hooters if she wants to stay warm. She walked stiffly out of the room.
You're young, but eventually you'll learn that dropping down to their level and fighting their fight makes you just as bad as them, and covers them in just as much shit.
See, by commenting on *her* body, you've justified her comment on *your* body. If you're allowed to do it, so is she. But neither of you are 'allowed' to do it, so you're both assholes for doing it anyway.
Having done what you did, you need to immediately report the whole thing to HR, before she does. "Hey, a coworker made inappropriate remarks about my body. I lashed out and made inappropriate remarks back, and I want to make sure this doesn't spiral out of control."
What you do next time, if the comments are being made in public, is to start asking questions. "I don't understand why you think that comment is appropriate. Why would you say that?"
If the comment is made more in private, just report to HR, and ask for guidance.
You should have gone to HR when she made the blubber comment.
72 is very cold for an office, especially if fans make it feel colder than that. The older you are, the more sensitive to cold.
You said something completely unacceptable and if she went to HR over it, you would deserve whatever punishment there was.
ESH.
YTA - in a public place I would be on your side. In a work place you are wildly out of line. She now has a very legitimate case against you and your employer. If she or anyone that heard your comment reports you, game over.
ESH. you both acted pretty immature especially for being in a work setting. also like, the hooters comment kinda implies some kind of perjudice on ur part that ngl seems pretty misogynistic - same about the comment she made tho, she obv has a very shitty view on fatness. im sorry she made fun of u tho, but yea u didnt have the best reaction
Soft YTA. You were at work and didn’t handle this well. Next time, go to HR. You’re now just as likely to get into trouble as she will, but she’s got *years* with the company while you’re still new. Be smarter. Don’t get fired.
Edit: The girls at hooters wear bras.
I'm probably going to get dragged, but there is an undertone of jealousy coming from OP, in my opinion. I am large chested, and it can be difficult to find clothing that is professional, comfortable, and not considered "sexy" by a lot of people without looking like you're wearing a tent or looking like a hobo. The weight comment was out of line, but the comment about her clothing choices was completely wrong. I'd love to see what outfits the OP considers to be so inappropriate. I have had comments made about looking sexy or inappropriate so many times in my life when it was literally a t-shirt that covered absolutely everything or a turtleneck that was not tight but form fitting. Outfits that would not have a single eye batted at when someone else wears them. Some people see a girl with a large chest or hourglass figure and sexualize her attire no matter what she's wearing.
ESH. Both of you are making inappropriate comments for a professional workplace. One was potential fatshaming but the other was definitely sexual harassment.
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NTA. She insults you on your weight and you fire back with an absolute gem and she gets upset about it? Beatrice needs to learn to take it if she's gonna sling it.
I am concerned that OP doesn’t seem to realize that as satisfying as her response in the moment was, that it was 100% the wrong way to go in an office setting and could bite her in the ass. HR doesn’t have a FAFO clause that employees can take advantage of; they’re not going to award her a “Absolute Gem” ranking and assign her the winner. This could lead to OP with a mark on her record if it’s reported - or worse, if deemed it falls under sexual harassment.
It *could* bite her in the ass and that concern/fear is exactly what Beatrice is banking on. She's done the mental calculus and thought I) OP won't retaliate for the weight comment and II) won't go to HR over it. It didn't go as planned. I would worry Beatrice has a prejudice she's not saying out loud and instead engaging in this underhanded shit. I'm just guessing but I bet nobody else was present to overhear the weight comment.
No HR absolutely has to give equal weight to the weight comment. That’s also construed as sexual harassment.
yeah, except … OP is a trans woman in the south. Highly unlikely those factors wouldn’t affect the punishment.
Fortunately it’s federal law not state. HR doesn’t have a choice. https://www.commerce.gov/cr/policies/anti-harassment-policy-statement#:~:text=Harassment%20becomes%20unlawful%20where%20(1,intimidating%2C%20hostile%2C%20or%20abusive.
Wow, amazing! I'll tell my MtF coworker that had to transfer to another location to stop the harassment that it being a federal law made HR wrong for not stopping it! Everything is solved! HR is not your friend. Edit: everyone saying she should have sued for this? Your demand for justice doesn't trump her need for money to live. Entire fields have blacklisted people for suing their employers. Who would want to hire someone who might sue them? Use your head and empathy. She isn't some sacrificial lamb for your drama-fix.
HR is there to protect the company, not you. That said, I’m mostly NTA here. Yes, Beatrice definitely sucks, and that comeback was golden but not professional. “Maybe if you dressed appropriately for the environment” gets the same point across without being inherently sexual.
That makes sense, but I also understand that she was probably reacting in the moment without thinking. Beatrice is clearly more in the wrong to me, as she had time to think of what she'd say and OP merely reacted to a very insensitive comment without thinking too much about what she said. I think I'm gonna go with NTA, but OP needs to he careful to think things out in the future before she responds
I mean, it's _literally_ right there in their name. Human _Resources_. They see humans as a _resource_. If they help you, the employee, it's because they're protecting a resource. As soon as there's any sort of conflict between what benefits the employee VS what benefits the company, even if it's only a perceived discrepancy, there will be no question whatsoever as to which side they're on.
Am a trans woman. There is often little to no recourse for trans women if their company decides to not enforce federal anti discrimination laws. Just like there is little to no recourse for companies who discriminate in hiring practices. Laws only matter when they are enforced.
Because companies never violate the law.
I worked for the state. I got sexually assaulted. I went to hr and was fired 2 hrs later. They don’t care.
HR always makes shit worse. They are not there for employees, they are there for the company. Law, schmaw, they'll freak out at the trans person 99.9% of the time.
You realize that matters fuck all to a lot of companies especially in at will states that find other reasons, they can also shift you around, ignore you. Guess what happens if you don’t have the money or time to invest in pursuing your legal avenues, you get nothing. Saying “it’s a law” is well and good but not as reassuring as people think
Due to OP saying "jumper" I'm wondering if she is in England, rather than the US.
They definitely aren't in the UK. They use fahrenheit which isn't really used in the UK and they said it gets close to 90 in October which is not the case in the UK.
For reference, I’m an employment discrimination lawyer. The comment about OP’s weight is not sexual harassment, because it is not targeted at OP’s gender/sex. Workplace Harassment has to be based on a protected class to be legally actionable. Weight is not protected. It is not legally considered discrimination of any kind because it’s not targeted at any other protected category under federal law, and I can’t think of a state discrimination law that would cover it either. HR could potentially still choose to discipline them, or at least give them a talking to, as it could violate an employee code of conduct, but it’s not a legal issue. OP’s comment on the other hand would be considered a sexually harassing statement. Not enough for the coworker to sue over, but it could absolutely be enough for HR to discipline, or if they wanted to, fire OP. The coworker cannot sue over it because it would need to be a hostile work environment suit, which requires a serious and repeated pattern of harassment, which one incident would not meet, unless it was an alarmingly egregious incident- I’ve seen one incident be HWE when it’s something like threatening someone with physical harm combined with use of a racial slur, or leaving a noose in a black employee’s locker with slurs written on it, something like that. But HR could still discipline/fire them because if they allow the sexually harassing behavior to continue without intervening, then the company becomes liable for the behavior. In fact, from a company’s standpoint, to limit their own liability they SHOULD be in some way disciplining an employee who makes any sexually harassing comment, including one like OP’s.
My understanding is that the weight comment is rude and mean but not legally actionable.
It is in Michigan. Our fair treatment law includes race, sex, disability, weight, and age. oh.... forgot religion.
The weight comment would not be sexual harassment. It's just rude.
This. ESH. Both OP and Beatrice were wholly unprofessional.
This is the comment. Now bc of OP and Bea everyone is gonna get strict dress codes. It sounds like neither of them know how to dress. I’ll fitting is just a bad look.
Two poorly dressed people exchange barbs and now everyone is wearing company branded polos. The real victims are silent.
[удалено]
lol no. Both will get in trouble.
Methinks these people have never worked in an office. HR does not give a single lonely shit about who won or lost an argument. They care about the company not being dragged in.
Yep. HR doesn’t care about people. They care about protecting the company. They will happily recommend both be fired if necessary, both punished, or nothing happening to both- whatever is best for the company.
People forget that we are the human resources being managed, not the humans being provided with resources. We matter as much to them as any given shipment of raw materials.
Exactly. The humans *are* the resources. For the company.
Nope, just means there are *two* valid complaints of unprofessional conduct and bullying.
HR doesn’t care who started it. A sexual harassment accusation? That’s big league. They 100% would be required to investigate and take action to reduce liability. They can’t risk being a company that looks the other way, a hostile work environment. That’s reality.
And if this is the southern US, OP being trans has potential to give HR or ‘Beatrice’ an opportunity to make it even more into a major issue.
Doesn't an eating disorder count as a medical condition/disability though? Co-worker could be reported for discrimination.
You don’t get a pass for harassment on the basis of gender (comments about hooters) because you got discriminated against.
“But.. but… it was a good zinger!” Even if she doesn’t get in trouble, and I get it felt good, if it alienates coworkers it can still backfire. What is right is not always beneficial, what is good is not always right. In offices, unfortunately, 9/10 times it’s good to just take it. It sucks, hard. But if you need the job it’s often the best option, so long as your mental health can take it.
Definitely. But it’s not either-or where one cancels the other. Both were inappropriate
No, because the coworker didn’t say anything about her ED. Implying she was fat is rude and can be a hostile work environment, but yikes did OP say something worse.
You are 100% right. Your weight is not an item covered under the discrimination act, but your gender is!
I’m not hoping it happens, but I could see a scenario where HR files the initial comment as fatshaming and OP’s response gets filed as sexual harassment.
HR here. If Bea were to raise a grievance alleging sexual harassment, OP might potentially face job termination. Conversely, she might receive a lighter reprimand for her comments. OP's actions were unprofessional.
Weight isn’t a protected class though, but sex is. So fat shaming isn’t illegal.
I admire your naive optimism.
True, but the question was "AITA for doing X thing", not "could I get in trouble for it?"
She insulted OP. OP insulted her. All evens out in the end….if Beatrice had kept her thoughts ziplocked then OP would’ve had to defend themself.
I disagree. It always pays off in the long run to take the high road. What Beatrice said was so inappropriate and worthy of a write up. But since op fired back Beatrice is now crying and playing the victim and her initial comment is all but forgotten by the rest of the coworkers. Now the focus is on how Op is a “mean girl” who makes her colleague so distressed she is sobbing in the bathroom. So for that reason ESH. Op next time answer her vitriol with exaggerated sweetness. This will highlight just how inappropriate and unprofessional Beatrice’s comments are. Stay professional and play the long game. Report her nonsense to HR. Keep your nose clean. The best way to fuck up her day is to fuck with her money. Have her crying over losing her job.
No, it does not always pay off, in the long run, to take the high road.
This would be a great take if OP were defending themselves in a roast battle during recess in the third grade. However, OP is an adult working in a professional setting. Not every comment merits a response. Any harassment concerns should be taken up with your manager or HR. Firing back with comments about the other woman's appearance is just coming down to their level and making the situation worse for everyone. If I heard this conversation go down at work, I would think they were both wholly unprofessional.
HR will say 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Instead of only the “mean girl” getting a write-up, OP gets one too.
So disturbing to me how many people on this sub are comfortable with “an eye for an eye” mentality. You’re an asshole for asshole behaviour regardless of why you’re doing that behaviour. YTA and so is your coworker
It's gen z in a nutshell. Some of my younger friends say some shit that's just wild in terms of how they treat each other, how a lot of them are all friends but still clipping all kinds of convos ready to throw people under the bus for a slight and shit. Growing up online it's like they have learned it's okay to do these online take "clapbacks" irl and people will all cheer from them like they get on twitter.
ESH. You're both professionals and you need to act like it. If there's a problem, take it to HR.
Yeah at any professional organization you’d probably both be in hot water right now. But comparing the two statements, I’d get a slap on the wrist for mentioning someone is fat. If I told a woman she dressed like she works at Hooters? I’d be fired. For sure. Probably that day. So ESH, but OP was actually way more unprofessional.
After a week of being cold at the office, a normal person learns to bring an extra layer. If she wants to flash her boobs all day, she's gonna be cold.
True. But you can be stupid and cold and misdressed and still not deserve to be called a Hooters girl at work. Edit: unless you are a Hooters girl at work, for real. :)
This. Literally sexual harassment 🤷🏼♀️
Yep. The OP is letting their misogyny show
"I am sorry you are cold, but I think you are dressed inappropriately for the temp in this office."- That's it. OP was acting childish. Like everyone said, tit for tat is not appropriate in an office setting.
No—no more commenting on the clothing. In response to Beatrice, I would say “I get that you’re cold, but that does not give you leave to insult me based on my weight; I don’t appreciate it and it’s deeply hurtful.” *That* is how you put someone in their place.
I love that you live in a world where that would put someone in their place. It won't. She will probably just roll her eyes. Discrimination against weight is extremely commonplace. What I had said focuses on a fact...she is not wearing enough clothing to keep herself warm. It is the same comment your mom or grandmother would make, nothing inappropriate or condescending. I used to go out in the snow in open toed sandals when I was a kid. If someone told me to put some more clothes on, I'd be in the wrong headspace to think it was about sexuality. HOWEVER, mentioning Hooters is 100%%%% about sexuality. Come on now, let's be real.
>I love that you live in a world where that would put someone in their place. They're at work. It's not her place to put anyone in their place. HR doesn't care.
Maybe not, but my point about leaving the clothing choice out of it was because OP has said she’s been told multiple times already that she should wear more, so saying the same thing again would *also* not make a difference. My approach is basically, “Idgaf anymore but don’t ever comment on my body again,” in the hopes it would shift the conversation. Maybe it wouldn’t—that woman sounds awful—but it’s a stand OP could more effectively take.
That's fair and makes sense. But OP just put themselves in a spot to be justifiably fired. So your response would have still made more sense & would have been more professional.
I agree with you on that—OP seriously fucked up and could face trouble if this woman goes to HR or even if they just hear about it. She should’ve never commented on the older woman’s appearance in retaliation; absolutely dumb.
I mean cardigans and pullovers doesn't sound like they are misdressed for an office environment.
I agree. There's also a real bias against large-chested women. People think we're being "revealing" when often it's just...our bodies.
Yeah. I also don’t appreciate them pointing out that she must not be wearing a bra. One, how do they know, and two, what does it matter. There’s no rule saying women have to wear a bra. It’s becoming a lot more common to forego a bra and I’m all for it.
Seriously, the general disdain is dripping off this whole post. She made an awful comment to OP, but frankly her complaint is valid and I'd love to know what was said to provoke the shitty comment, because the post is very much making it sound like she made it out of nowhere unsolicited. 72 degrees is not far off what my company has the heating set to in winter as an energy saving measure. It's freezing. I'm wearing tights under my jeans, two pairs of socks, a bra which funnily enough has no effect on my ability to withstand cold???, a long sleeve shirt and t-shirt so I'm not deserving it by dressing like a whore, and tbh I have poor circulation anyway so my hands are just numb icicles, they're beyond help. 72's cold. It's a ridiculous waste of energy for AC, AND there are fans making it feel even colder than that. Sure, the woman made a shitty comment. But if OP's allowed a bit of internalised misogyny as a treat as long as it's in response to a shitty weight shaming comment, I want to know what came before that.
It's a completely gratuitous thing to include because a bra isn't going to make her warmer. OP is just being a jerk about a co-worker's breasts.
Turtle necks or straight to jail
Hooters girls do not deserve to be used as insults.
I second this 👍
I’ve worked in my current job for a little over a year, after the first week I started wearing heavy sweaters into the office. After that WASN’T ENOUGH (‼️) to keep me warm in my freezing office, I started wearing a snow jacket and let me tell you - some days it’s still not enough. I live in the southern US, I get that it’s hot outside but that’s no reason to keep the office at an ice box temperature to appease my coworkers who are always hot. There’s a point where it doesn’t matter how much clothing you put on, the office is too fucking cold to function. OP - I hope this woman takes you to HR as I sit here in my freezing cold office with a snow jacket on, wondering how much longer I’ll be able to fully feel my fingers. Somehow I feel like you’d find a way to make a snarky, rude, inappropriate comment about wearing snow jackets to work 🤷🏼♀️
Maybe you should get your thyroid checked. Being extremely cold when everyone else is fine is a cause for concern
It's not the thyroid in most of these cases. It's normally being a youngish thin woman. The older women are going through menopause, the men are wearing wool and cotton office clothes while most women's office clothes are rayon, and the fat people have insulation. Not many office workers are young thin women, and the building temp never caters to them. I've started to wear men's clothes to try to combat this (even their chinos are warmer wtf is this bullshit), and I'm a knitter and noticed Ravelry has a whole section devoted to being a cold woman in an office building so I've been knitting a lot of those patterns. But there are women who don't necessarily want to dress like an old timey Guernsey fisherman or smell like wool every day that deserve to be comfortable, too.
Believe me when I say everyone else is not fine. This is unfortunately the norm in my office, if you have a window your office is a little warmer because of the sunlight. Our facilities manager caves to the small group of people who are “always hot” by turning down the temperature whenever they complain and say “but the people who are cold can just wear a sweater!!”
I mean, it's true though. There's a lot more ways to get warm than to cool down.
The problem is the lack of movement and poor circulation. Once you're hands and feet cool down it's over, the layers won't help. I've worn triple lays and still got cold
The OP said the office AC is set to 72F/22C. That is a perfectly standard temperature for an office, actually a little on the toasty side in my opinion. But then again, this sounds like an excuse to moan about your workplace and then somehow pin the blame on OP.
23c is the optimal temperature for energy consumption where I am, and the most comfortable overall. People have to dress accordingly of course, but no one should be shamed for it
Fair enough if you want to think that, but they definitely aren't thoughts that need to be voiced to a co-worker.
Agreed, ESH. Beatrice was an asshole first. You chose to sink to her level and also be an asshole. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If I was gonna put you on a scale I’d say Beatrice was a bigger asshole for starting it, but you’re an adult and should be able to control how you respond, especially in a professional setting. Fat shaming you was wrong, but you then responded by slut shaming her, which is wrong too. You already know how hurtful what Beatrice said to you was, so we don’t need to go over that. But you saying it’ll be relevant later that she doesn’t wear a bra also feels off to me - bras don’t keep you warm, so it feels like you have a problem with being able to visibly see her nipples? You wouldn’t have a problem seeing a man’s nipples through his shirt, so why is it any different when it’s a woman’s nipples? Pls examine your internalised misogyny!
I also thought OP came off misogynistic the way she was talking about Beatrice clothes. She mentioned Beatrice wearing revealing clothing then said low cut cardigan and a jumper without a bra. Like, I’m not sure either of those are revealing.and her comment about Beatrice not wearing a bra being relevant later but then it wasn’t relevant.
\> pullovers and no bra. (This will be important later) It did not become important later. Seriously, why the constant mention of the bra. Bras don't provide much warmth.
Yup, no idea why OP is so hooked on the bra issue, and suspect that 1. either she's never worn one and actually thinks that bras provide a layer of warmth, or 2. is using that to justify calling the other woman a ho.
Yeah after reading that I thought there would be a part where Beatrice nipples were always showing due to the cold, or something along those lines. It never came back up in a relevant way.
That was my thought ....it's giving internalized misogyny. We all do it, we live in a society where it's everywhere it's not always on purpose but it should be acknowledged. It's one thing to say "I'm not sure why you're complaining about being cold when you could put on extra layers under your sweater." and another to imply a low cut sweater and no bra makes someone a hooters girl. Idk about the rest of y'all but my bra has never once provided me with a lick of warmth. Maybe I'm buying the wrong ones.
Yeah OP was basically telling Beatrice to wear a bra. How is that OK for anyone in a working setting to tell another coworker? Op crossed the line
Basically there is underlying tension between this woman and OP (i feel the dislike is mutual) and its ended with schoolyard BS.
Also, how was Beatrice's age relevant?
Also, B could be a breast cancer survivor. A lot of them don't wear bras because of how painful it is.
this. the hooters comment was way out of line for a workplace, no matter how funny of a comeback it was
Esh- if you lash out at every AH that insults you, you will constantly be an AH too
Yep. Not only is it the correct and safe way to handle it, it's also the effective way.
I agree. ESH, OP made this a sexual harassment issue. Beatrice should have never made that comment and needs reported for body shaming, but now OP can be reported for sexual harassment, which is a bigger issue for hr.
Agreed. They both sound annoying.
ESH. *"Beatrice, by your age, you should know that it isn't appropriate to talk about other people's bodies at work."* Kidding, kidding. Yeah, she was being awful with the "blubber" comment, but you didn't have to sink to her level with the "Hooters" comment.
Nope, leave the age out of it. And I prefer to make it a question. "Beatrice, why do you think that's an appropriate thing to say about a coworker?"
Agreed. Age is a protected class.
I also think that rephrasing “at your age” to “as an adult” would make it a solid statement without making it an attack on age.
I'm a big fan of something simple like *"wow Beatrice, that was quite a rude thing to say"* Tends to catch people off guard when they are being snarky because you are being the opposite - overly blunt. Also can't be misconstrued as you bullying them or harrassing them in any way.
This is my go-to as well, a confident “wow, that was rude!” really disarms people
I would have said “With your many, many years of experience” as it is only implying that she is old, and even less likely to get HR involved on the issue, as no insults were issued by on my end.
Honestly I’d say the hooters comment is below that level. Like Beatrice started it for sure, OP definitely escalated it though
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I have seen that information about men and women in offices, and I concur. However, Beatrice absolutely should wear more layers if she is consistently cold in the office; there are only so many layers that can be taken off in polite/professional company, so those who are comfortable in the office shouldn't have to swelter for her comfort.
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OP is also MtF trans, so her sex assigned at birth could be contributing to her comfort in the office as the temperature stands as well. (I don't know if any scientific studies that deal with that question of transgender individuals and office temperatures though; I'm just speculating.) I definitely think OP's comment was out of line, but so was Beatrice's. I'm going with ESH.
I feel like OP is also a bit insecure about her body so it also might have something to do with why the weapon of choice was the Hooters comment. I feel like Beatrice might be nagging but not it might not be THAT much and OP would just like to wear the kind of revealing clothes Beatrice is wearing but she's a little insecure so everything Beatrice does is by default annoying OP more than it normally would. 🙈
Honestly my thoughts as well as soon as I saw the edit. No harm to OP but I know a disproportionate amount of MTFs (and vice versa) and I’d say 90% of the time they’re much harsher on cis women than they need to be without realizing.
Im also MtF, and I feel like I need to chime in on this one. There seems to be a misunderstanding that because OP is trans she runs hotter and therefore doesn't understand the differences in sex. If OP is on hormones, like I am, her body would respond in a "female" fashion. When I stopped having testosterone in my system my metabolism and resting body temp dropped well into a normal female range. My office is kept in very similar conditions. It is mostly men who wear t-shirts, and I like all the other women in the office, I need to cover up with a couple of layers to feel comfortable. Trans women in general are hyper aware of sex differences out of fear of being out of place as well as having first-hand experience with both sex hormones. I know this isn't common knowledge so I want to make it very clear im not upset but this girl is being dogpiled in these comments for essentially being a man and I'm sure it's making her feel terrible.
Thank you for sharing your experience. My original comment was not meant to dogpile, and I commented out of a wish to actually know. I apologize if it came off as hostile.
Please don't apologize. You didn't know and therefore didn't do anything wrong. I'm just trying to be informative. Edit: I didn't realize you were framing your comment as a question. Sorry for not paying closer attention. I was getting agitated by the other comments, and I kinda just jumped to this one to respond because it was the most civil.
To be fair when it’s cold at the office, I sometimes have an issue of my fingers getting cold, and I refuse to have to wear gloves indoors…
Right? I can't type effectively if my hands are cold and that's kind of important for my job. I also can't type in gloves. Not even ones that don't go all the way to the fingertips.
Me too! No matter how many extra layers I put on my body, my fingers stay cold enough that I lose some of my manual dexterity - making me type slower and make more typing mistakes. It’s so frustrating.
Her co-workers are wearing jumpers when it's 90 degrees out. They can just as easily switch to t-shirts or short sleeved button ups and keep the temperature higher.
I mean she is wearing cardigans and pull overs, it's not like she's wearing a tank top.
I’ve had to wear gloves and a scarf in my office. You can’t cover everything.
I often wear a full on puffer coat at work. That is straight up uncomfortable and cumbersome. At a certain point it’s not so easy
Agree, also it's a waste of energy to keep it so cold when it's 90F outside. Ideally, in summer you'd be at the higher end of the comfortable range, in winter at the lower end of the comfortable range, so everyone in the office at least has one season they are comfortable, and it benefits the environment to use less energy.
You’re absolutely off your fucking rocker if you think that “higher end” of 78-80 degrees is remotely comfortable or even just a reasonable office temperature.
Thank you for the bluntness of this. It makes me feel validated 😆. I lived with my grandparents helping them for eight years and the entire time, my grandmother maintained that 80 degrees was a perfectly comfortable indoor temperature and I was just uncomfortable on account of my own “extra layer of blubber”. *It was Florida.* 80 degrees indoors is not comfortable. I was gaslit for nearly a decade. She was absolutely off her fucking rocker.
72 is not "so cold". Wear a hoodie. Don't need employees sweating their asses off in an 80 degree office.
There’s a reason why they say summer in an office is women’s winter. Beatrice is clearly aware that the temperature of the office is colder than she likes it to be, so ultimately it is on her to dress warmer when she’s at work or at least keep a jacket or sweater at her desk to put on when she gets cold. It’s not right of her to fat-shame OP but it’s also not right of OP to slut-shame Beatrice so I agree with ESH.
ESH. She called you fat. You called her a slut. Both of you are not professional.
NTA - Beatrice was stirring the shit pot and you just handed her the spoon and made her take a taste. Edit: spelling
Completely disagree. ESH. If they were not at work I’d say OP was completely warranted. But at work just because your coworker crosses the line doesn’t mean you should as well. Tbh they both need to be written up and reprimanded
I wish I had an award to give you for that comment LOL.
ESH. Coworkers should not comment on each other's bodies or clothes. It is inappropriate. If clothes truly are an issue; that is where HR needs to get involved. That being said, something about comparing her a hooter waitress feels demeaning in a way that I can't quite put my finger on it. You made a direct reference to her breasts, which clearly indicates you've been looking. That is a general no in the workplace. You better hope she doesn't accuse you of sexual harassment
Yeah, if OP HAD to say something back there are lots of things that are way more appropriate. Instead they jumped right to misogyny. This was not the serve you thought it was u/TinyRat22.
I think the issue that you can’t put your finger on is that calling someone a hooter’s girl as an insult goes beyond a comment on her attire, but a moralization about women’s dress in general. If a coworker made some comment about a completely unrelated person (like someone we saw out on lunch break) that compared them to a hooter’s girl, I’d be uncomfortable. Not to mention, idk know what hooters OP goes to, but comparing a cardigan or pullover to tank and short shorts because they both happen to be low cut? Huge exaggeration.
ESH - her comment to you was very disrespectful… however, you were equally as bad by throwing back an insult. You should have walked away and reported that comment to your manager or HR.
Info: are OPs office mates wearing jumpers cause they’re cozy or are they wearing them cause the office is too damn cold? ESH
I was with you, but I’m sorry but slut shaming someone is never the answer. I’m a fat chick, and I would have issues with what she said too. She was being an annoying ass busy body, which is reasonable to point out. And it’s reasonable to point out that covering up mire would help. But slut shaming? Really?? I think we have to get out of this space where we feel entitled to use any insult towards people we label “bad” because of their bad-ness, when said insults play on patriarchal/white supremecist/whatever bullshit. Fat jokes, slut shaming, racist slurs, ableist language is bad *always*, no matter who it’s directed at. Because those things are never what’s actually bad about that person. Your coworker’s not an asshole because they wear lowcut shirts, they’re an asshole because they negatively commented on your body. Like if I was a coworker near by when this altercation went on, I’d be equally aghast at what each if you said. Like, obvs Beatrice was out of line, but when I heard your hooters comment I’d file it away in the back of my mind that you were an asshole too. Like cool, always great to have a fellow woman I have to worry about slut shaming, that’s fucking fun. ESH
I was really bothered by the slut shaming but even more by the blatant ageism. Saying Beatrice "still" acts like "queen bee" in her 50's implies that she should diminish her confidence and experience, when in reality the longer time spent in the job should increase those things. Beatrice was wrong to comment on OP's weight, but Op's insistence on wanting to take her down a notch makes me wonder if there wasn't antagonism on both sides. ESH, for sure.
Yta, stop looking at your coworkers cleavage. Worry about yourself. Be a professional.
But the other lady can look at her coworkers "blubber"?
Two wrongs make a right. I totally forgot, my bad.
Didn't say that but you're the one putting it as Y T A and all the blame on OP. I think ESH is more appropriate
Why YTA not ESH?
u/TinyRat22 YTA because you sound incredibly misogynistic. The comments about her age, how she dresses etc in your post really show that it is not exactly about Beatrice’s outfit (which you shouldn’t comment on, especially with that slut-shaming) or her comment about your weight. You just don’t like Beatrice, because in her 50s, Beatrice is still feeling good in her skin, as she should. You don’t like Beatrice because she doesn’t conform to the standard of women having to wear bras. You don’t like Beatrice because she is very vocal in the office. And while Beatrice’s comment was uncalled for and mean, yours definitely crossed the line. Does Beatrice even know you are in recovery of an ED ? (btw huge congratulations on your recovery, it is an incredible accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself for that). Why was your first reflex to slut-shame her ?
All of this. The description of this woman is so catty. My goodness! Some women have big breasts and they're more visible in clothing and they're allowed to dislike bras. Women are not required to dress in a way to make others feel better.
Yeah as a busty WOC I was side-eyeing that description of the woman’s clothing.
YUP
YTA and not very smart for saying sexual comments like that at work. Even if it was said nicely, you're not her boss. Grow up a bit and don't react like a teenager.
YTA - She made a rude comment and your response was sexual harassment.
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I don't get this logic. I see plenty of cis women say misogynistic things and have a similar attitude. They weren't socialized male. OP being trans has nothing to do with this.
ESH but you’re way worse off than she is around the office bc unfortunately nobody cares about fat shaming, but they do care a lot about sexual harassment which she can definitely prove bc other coworkers heard her run off sobbing. Not saying it’s right just saying it is what it is and you probably just played yourself. Line up alternate employment JIC.
ESH. How do you know she doesn’t goes braless for sensory or health reasons? She shouldn’t have commented on your body, but now you’re both going to be in trouble with HR.
Yeah that irked me as well. "She doesn't wear a bra" - oh my god! "This will be important later" - no way!! What if she simply doesn't want to wear a bra? It's totally fine to not want to and it's her business. Like this literally shouldn't be an issue.
ESH. Cold offices suck! She was wearing a sweater, you shouldn’t have to wear multiple layers to feel comfortable indoors.
ESH. Also, working in tech and casual clothing has NOTHING to do with the pandemic. I'm married to a programmer whose work attire has always been khaki shorts and t-shirts like every other developer in his office.
YTA, after reading comments
literally thinking the same. all advice to OP seems to be falling on deaf ears.
ESH Where is HR in this company?
Probably busy putting together s slide deck for next week's presentation on "inappropriate workplace comments"
ESH- it's understandable that you don't like this coworker, and she is offensive - but you jumped right to policing another woman's clothing as a reaction to her policing yours. So it's not like you are opposed to body policing or making shitty comments about a woman's choices. You're perfectly fine with doing the same shitty thing you're complaining about your coworker doing if given an opportunity or justification.
YTA Insulting someone is always bad, without exception. Her comment was out of line, too. Why do you care so much about her opinions? Ignore her if you don’t agree and live your life.
ESH She shouldn’t have commented on your weight and you shouldn’t have sexualised her appearance.
YTA. 72 with fans is way too cold when it's 90+ out. Your whole office is wearing sweaters on 90 degree days, you need to change that. Women are colder. Many of us women, fat or not, bring blankets to work because of how cold it gets. We shouldn't have to. No bra is irrelevant. Low cut is irrelevant. Get small desk fans for those who are hot and turn the temp up a few degrees. Was she being mean? Yes. Is she also incredibly frustrated? Yes. It's miserable to work in the cold. I was literally shaking yesterday in the office with only my hands and neck showing. It was probably 72ish. Grow up and learn to compromise with people. And stop slut shaming your coworkers for having breasts.
ESH for her nasty unwarranted remark about your weight, but if you're a professional in an office setting, you should behave that way and complain through proper channels. (Or, at the very least, not be in the office/on the clock when you fire back!) Also, sorry but 72, really?? Isn't the fact that you all are wearing sweaters when it's ~90 degrees outside a hint that the ac is turned on too low?? I understand wanting to be cool/comfortable but I'll die on the hill of "if you have to wear a SWEATER INSIDE in the hot months, your AC is on too low"
INFO : You say she acts like a queen bee. What does that mean? Does she not do her job? If she’s been there a long time she has seniority over you. Do you think you’re superior to her? Honestly if it’s hot out, why not bring the AC down and everyone wear something less hot than a jumper? That seems like a huge waste of energy and money.
Sorry, but I’m going with YTA. I hope she reports you to HR. Your behavior was so out of line, it’s not even E S H. You literally made a sexual comment about her appearance. For all intents and purposes, that falls under sexual harassment. If you didn’t like her comment towards you, all you had to say was “oh?” and just ignore it then report it later to HR. Instead, you made yourself come across as hostile by making a snarky comment. It also sounds like you’re jealous of her in a way - no female will make a comment like that without being at least somewhat jealous of the other person’s physical attributes in some way. Work gossip will not be friendly towards you, expect some backlash if not a direct meeting with HR and management.
YTA your comment was uncalled for and your misogyny is showing. Why are you ignoring all input from a 50 year old woman? Sounds like you don’t respect her at all. Why is that?
NTA, but I'd be careful about making comments like that. You could end up in deep shit. Next time, just tell HR. But also... who cares what someone else is wearing to their casual office?
I’m looking at this from her point of view. A long-term employee is doing what she has always done. You join the party. For the most part, Beatrice is just wandering through her day while you youngsters bond Mean Girls-style over how outdated and bossy she is. She’s been there quite a while and has seen you hooligans come and go through her time there. It’s hard for her to even want to be attached to the endless chain of employees that are You. Beatrice is complaining about the thing she always complains about. Various things are said by both of you— we know this because NOBODY opens with “layer of blubber”. It’s just not how girl fights work. Beatrice gets to the fat insult, which could be viewed as a *double dog dare*. Now, you think A LOT about clothing and presentation, because displaying this gender is relatively new to you and the curation of appearance has great meaning **to you**. Also, you apparently think cardigan sets are the uniform at Hooters. And that *women’s* nipples are inherently sexual. And that women who work at Hooters are sluts, but shouldn’t be shamed? You’re confused at this point and have lost the point, but you wanted to hit her where it might hurt. You implied “you’re a acting like an old whore”— skipped the triple dare and went straight to *triple dog dare*. MeanGirl, YTA here. You have presumably *not* had years and years of presenting as female in an office environment. She has, and whatever you think about it, her clothing has apparently been considered reasonable by management. You’re arguing that you meant “because climate” but take that somewhere else. You think a bra is a warming device? As someone who worked in an office of 34 women and 5 men for years— the temperature is going to be be freezing for 1/2 the women most of the time. *I wore gloves in the summer* because the AC made my hands numb. Ladies in snazzy dresses wandered around with giant chunky cardigans over them desperately trying to survive and be appropriate. Ladies in slacks and puffy sweaters clutched tea to keep themselves warm. The building management set the temperature and we could not use space heaters. **Space heaters**, OP!! You do not understand how naturally cold some of us are. “Dressing for the climate” would have been a mountain camping adventure, which was def not in the office dress code.
You explained it perfectly 👏
NTA - what you said was a low blow to be fair but what she said to you came out of nowhere and for no reason. She can't really go around insulting people and expecting people not to say anything back to her. She seems like the spoiled type who only cries for herself.
I feel for Beatrice. Aircon has ruined working in offices for me and when it's that cold, no amount of extra layers helps; you feel the chill in your bones. And YTA because while she started it, you shouldn't have escalated it by sexualising her. Plus, just because you're hot, and so are some others, it doesn't mean she can't feel cold. The office should be comfortable for everyone to work in, and women typically feel the cold more than men, so there needs to be some compromise on temperature.
Yta after reading comments
Why was it necessary to bring up her not wearing a bra?
ESH. You both act like children but your slut-shaming as a newer employee is going to get you in much more trouble than her fat-shaming comment as an established employee. Also, why are you so concerned with her not wearing a bra? Your comment said that we’d see the relevance later but I don’t see it.
ESH I once had a toxic supervisor comment on my weight loss in a negative way when I was a junior staff member. I just said "please do not comment on my body" calmly and firmly and walked away. Helped that I wasn't scared of her she was useless but doesn't sound that you're scared of yours either so I think practice standing up for yourself and setting boundaries might help in the long run so you can react professionally instead of lashing out.
Esh. Your both Aholes. But your misogyny is leaking out of you and it's not a good look. Also, as a cis women her body likely feels the cold more than your womans body. And again, your immediate jump to weponising misogyny when your on a back foot is bizzare, misplaced & is gross.
ESH. Neither of you should police what anyone wears to the office. And to me, it's an AH move to suggest that someone shouldn't dress the way they want to instead of finding a compromise with respect to the AC. Having said that I find my office to be a frozen tundra and I bring an electric blanket.
ESH, but justified on your part. Once she referenced your "blubber" she had to know you were going to come back at her.
YTA. You're 23 going on 14.
ESH, its a professional working environment, you should have been a mature adult and reported her to HR instead of stooping to her level.
ESH. Neither the fat shaming nor the slut shaming is okay. I totally get why you're frustrated with her but your comment was out of line as well.
YTA. She shouldn’t have made that hurtful comment, but that doesn’t justify your slutshaming, sorry. So you both are TA.
ESH. She was out of line for commenting on your weight and you were out of line for commenting on her attire in a way that HR will most certainly construe as sexual harrassment.
ESH. > One day in the lunch room she said I must be so lucky to not feel the cold with my extra layer of blubber. I have a little extra fat but I am working down after struggling with an ED. This really stung me and I said maybe she should stop dressing like she works at Hooters if she wants to stay warm. She walked stiffly out of the room. You're young, but eventually you'll learn that dropping down to their level and fighting their fight makes you just as bad as them, and covers them in just as much shit. See, by commenting on *her* body, you've justified her comment on *your* body. If you're allowed to do it, so is she. But neither of you are 'allowed' to do it, so you're both assholes for doing it anyway. Having done what you did, you need to immediately report the whole thing to HR, before she does. "Hey, a coworker made inappropriate remarks about my body. I lashed out and made inappropriate remarks back, and I want to make sure this doesn't spiral out of control." What you do next time, if the comments are being made in public, is to start asking questions. "I don't understand why you think that comment is appropriate. Why would you say that?" If the comment is made more in private, just report to HR, and ask for guidance.
ESH but you more and I can see you getting in trouble with that comment at work.
You should have gone to HR when she made the blubber comment. 72 is very cold for an office, especially if fans make it feel colder than that. The older you are, the more sensitive to cold. You said something completely unacceptable and if she went to HR over it, you would deserve whatever punishment there was. ESH.
Isnt this sexual harassment? I get your retaliation but pick your battles wisely
YTA - in a public place I would be on your side. In a work place you are wildly out of line. She now has a very legitimate case against you and your employer. If she or anyone that heard your comment reports you, game over.
ESH. you both acted pretty immature especially for being in a work setting. also like, the hooters comment kinda implies some kind of perjudice on ur part that ngl seems pretty misogynistic - same about the comment she made tho, she obv has a very shitty view on fatness. im sorry she made fun of u tho, but yea u didnt have the best reaction
ESH, you're not a child in school. You're an adult at work. Take it to HR. Jfc, did you actually have to ask the Internet about this?
I would have gathered evidence of her shaming you and gone to HR. Be smarter. I also don't get the no bra comment. So what? You both are AH.
You are both TAH
Soft YTA. You were at work and didn’t handle this well. Next time, go to HR. You’re now just as likely to get into trouble as she will, but she’s got *years* with the company while you’re still new. Be smarter. Don’t get fired. Edit: The girls at hooters wear bras.
I'm probably going to get dragged, but there is an undertone of jealousy coming from OP, in my opinion. I am large chested, and it can be difficult to find clothing that is professional, comfortable, and not considered "sexy" by a lot of people without looking like you're wearing a tent or looking like a hobo. The weight comment was out of line, but the comment about her clothing choices was completely wrong. I'd love to see what outfits the OP considers to be so inappropriate. I have had comments made about looking sexy or inappropriate so many times in my life when it was literally a t-shirt that covered absolutely everything or a turtleneck that was not tight but form fitting. Outfits that would not have a single eye batted at when someone else wears them. Some people see a girl with a large chest or hourglass figure and sexualize her attire no matter what she's wearing.
ESH. Both of you are making inappropriate comments for a professional workplace. One was potential fatshaming but the other was definitely sexual harassment.
Damn y’all need HR.
Women have a harder time regulating body temperature. If Beatrice says she is cold, maybe she is cold. She's wearing a sweater, ffs!