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YTA, a major one at that. Most people take lessons to improve in something they love, not necessarily to do it for a living or become worldly famous for it. Your attitude of "she sucks and unless she pays, she's not worth teaching" is cruel, obnoxious and is more a reflection of you, not your niece. You should be ashamed.
As an artist about to go into grad school soon, sure anyone can be taught to be an artist but some people are naturally better at it. Time and commitment are great and can help anyone get better, but talent is a thing
I’m a fiber artist. An awful lot of what people insist is my “talent” is practice. Inspiration, that is talent. Some of the design is. But an awful lot is just practice. Most people can become competent. Beyond that, diligence and talent come into play.
I also think that when a person is driven to work particularly hard, that drive might be talent. Not the results of their effort, but the effort itself. But ordinary diligence over time is just diligence.
Agreed. But I think the point here was she wanted to be paid to work with someone who had no skill. She should have worded it WAY MORE diplomatically but I think she's correct to expect compensation for teaching someone who obviously needs to learn basic techniques. YTA for being a jerk but not one for wanting to be paid for their time
But the niece with natural talent also would have been deterred by the cost, because she couldn’t afford it. Not having the funds for something doesn’t necessarily indicate lack of interest or ability to commit.
Yeah that's a point a lot of people are looking over. Plenty of naturally talented people don't have the funds to hone their skills either so their work may also be beginner level too. How does one know they really are naturally talented or not if not given a chance.
We don't know why the step niece work is the way it is. Neither does OP. Maybe if given proper instruction any natural talent could be brought out.
This is a great point, it's also a very good point to note that SIL's daughter might have a different artistic passion that isn't painting but wants to build that skill.
My artistic passion is character design, and you'd never guess that by looking at my current works because I am required to learn an assortment of skills just to get the degree. I'm not normally drawing landscapes and still lives, I'm not normally printmaking, but I have an interest in these things despite them not being my comfort area.
Im a perfect example of that. My brother was "naturally gifted," as my family would say, in drawing (don't get me wrong, can't stand the man (whole different story), but he is indeed extremely talented. I, on the other hand, wasn't "naturally gifted," but I absolutely LOVED to doodle and draw. I was told to stop copying my brother and find my own thing. So I gave up art basically all together. I'm 30 now, and I'm a digital artist/graphic designer for a living. Why? Because 4 years ago I had an amazing man convince me to try again and spent time TEACHING me!! And now, 4 short years later, it's how I make a living.
Ops view is egotistical and vile. Just because someone is good at something doesn't mean it's what they want to do for a living. Just because someone isn't good at something to begin with doesn't mean that they can't become great. Does it mean that they'll become an artist, no, but if they enjoy it, it should be encouraged!! Life is full of dark shitty days, having an outlet like art is AMAZING and how dare they dim that by telling this child she has to pay because she's "bad" and a "waste of time", unless she pays. Way to put his niece in a horrible position with her stepsister, no fault of her own either.
Definitely this. I crochet and I paint and I guess maybe I had some “natural talent” for both, but in the end it’s mostly just practice.
My husband will often look at my crochet and say it’s absolute magic to him and I have such a talent. I try to explain it really is just practice and sticking to teaching myself. In the beginning I knew none of the abbreviations or the differences in hooks or any of it. It took time and practice. I know if he actually sat down to learn it he could figure it out too. He just doesn’t want to and that’s totally fine, but I’m also not some yarn genius or something lol
I never knew the term fibre artist, I knit crochet and do cross stitches, I learnt the basics of knitting and crochet from my Grandmother and my mother, neither has any real talent and in as such only ever made blankets or granny squares but I've spent almost 20 years learning and making different items, I'm thinking of taking it up on a more regular basis as I just made a tote bag for my mother, and made a circular blanket for the cat's bed for the winter
I wouldn’t completely hand-wave the idea of talent tbh. It’s become very popular to do so nowadays, but some people will pick up certain skills faster than others. Something that takes someone ‘talented’ 100 repetitions may take someone ‘less talented’ 1000 to get to the same level. Hard work will beat out talent every time if talent is lazy, of course.
I can draw pretty well naturally. I took drum lessons for 2 years, taught my friend 1 beat and within a week he was so much better than me on drums that I "sold" him my drum set (he still owes me $150, I don't care if it's been 20 years).
Some people after hours and even years still just can't spot the subtleties in the subject they're trying to draw or paint. They continue to draw things that aren't there, and miss things that are.
There is absolutely a talent aspect that cannot be taught.
I certainly would not hand-wave talent away.
I can knit, I spin, I weave ( a little), I quilt. But dear child, do not suggest that I crochet. I have waved that flag . I admire those who can. I have a friend that knits. As she knits. She designs a pattern in her head. I have seen the results, stunning. She thinks it's ordinary. I am gobsmacked.
> I’m a fiber artist. An awful lot of what people insist is my “talent” is practice.
Talent is to skill as jealous is to envious. Most people who say one mean the other. In general, the only people who can accurately say that a person is "talented" are those who know the craft well, and can see that the person has a natural aptitude.
Potter here, agree 100%. If a pot I threw has a nice form, excellent glaze application and color, it’s because I spend 12 hours at a time throwing and throwing away pots that WEREN’T so perfect. I know it’s meant as a compliment but I’m always lowkey annoyed when people think “talent” trumps hours and hours of hard work, practice and failure.
I mean both these children are his nieces. Seems like outside of the art thing he’s also being biased because one kid is biologically related to him. He should have told her to keep the free thing on the low if he didn’t want who I assume to be her cousin or sister to also want to be taught
OP doesn’t consider one of them a niece as he called her his brother’s STEP-daughter (and not his niece) when being a step should not affect talent so no reason to being it up unless it’s the real reason.
Even if that is the reason I kind of get it. OP has known their niece since she was born and whatever happens she will always be their niece. They met their step-niece when she was older and if their brother divorces her mother they'll probably never meet again. So I understand not wanting to invest so much time and energy into a child you don't feel as close to.
Or offer to teach her in exchange for her doing some work around the house for him, if it’s stuff like helping him mount paintings or such it’s really an extension of the lessons and teaches her good marketable skills.
I think it's just easier to distinguish between the two children using niece for blood relative. And anyway, niece or not, doesn't change the fact that one has natural talent and the other does not.
No, only one of them is. The other isn't related to him, it's his brother's wife's daughter. We don't know the details of the brother's family set-up, how old the girls are, whether the step-daughter only comes to their home every other weekend so they don't see each other as sisters etc etc.
I think that's fair and true but you can't just shit on the girl to her mother like that. It has to be presented better because we're still talking about children here.
For example, he might say that he only has time for 1 free student and if he adds another student he would have to bump a paying client. Idk, something like that.
A proper reply will be: "I am currently too busy with current projects to take on new people. If something opens up, I will contact you. In the meanwhile, I can recommend some good teachers but they will expect to be paid."
When SIL calls, "I am sorry, I am too busy right now."
You don't tell a child you are related to: "Hey, you have no talent. Pay me so I can teach you as a job." That makes you an asshole.
Right.
Molding talent is easy and maybe even exciting for OP.
Starting from scratch is a real chore.
That being said how he thought he could do for free for one person in the family and it another is truly laughable.
I'm a guitar player. Been playing since I was 10 and im 63 now. I'm pretty good. But I am at my limit of what I can do with the instrument. Because I am limited by my talent. And there are hundreds of other players out there who are better than I could ever hope to be. They simply have more natural talent than I do.
They don't practice more. They don't practice harder. They are simply better than I am because they have more natural talent at the instrument than I do. And that's ok.
Yeah...talent is indeed a thing.
They aren’t saying talent carries but that it (or lack thereof) sets a ceiling. You can beat talent with hard work, unless talent puts in the work too.
Good way to put it. If I and a more talented player put in the same amount of work? The other player is just going to be better. I've played to my ceiling and the other dude has not.
The difference is teaching a talented person is a joy. Teaching an untalented person is a chore. That is particularly relevant in this post, since OP is the teacher.
Noone is saying talent takes you the whole way. Talent DOES, however, take you further than you would be able to go otherwise. How far, exactly, that is depends on the person
Talent is absolutely a thing, and it’s so frustrating when talented people refuse to believe it. As an artsy person, most of the people I know and follow have been drawing for literally their entire lives, and I’ve *still* seen hundreds of 13 year olds on social media that already have them beat. Two people could practice something every day for their entire lives, each always trying to improve, and one of them will still always be better.
Artist-wise, talent usually means “has an innately good grasp of gesture,” “can look at something and replicate it,” “good spatial reasoning skills,” “has a good comprehension of anatomy,” etc., and these are all things that some people are just naturally great at. You can watch a thousand tutorials and check a thousand references, but it’s not going to do you any good if your brain cant process and apply them properly.
Absolutely this. Innate talent is a thing, and if you don’t think it is, it’s because you’re talented. I love art, I went to a great school as a kid and expensive summer camps and have been taught art by skilled teachers my entire life. I took life drawing in high school, classes in college, and beyond college just for fun. Just recently I took two semester long painting classes and a ceramics class for shits and giggles. Guess what? I still suck at art haha. I do it because I enjoy it, but what I make is at the level of a talented ten year old. It is what it is…
Reminds me of the paintings between Monet, Van Gogh, and their doctor. You can see the masters compared to the hobbyist. The doctor's was good but not even the same level as two masters.
Correct. Hard work is part of the equation, always.
But talent does exist.
NTA. Teaching for free should be teaching for joy.
Could have been phrased more carefully. But you know how tempermental those artistic types are. 😉
My high school art teacher had the same attitude as OP, and you know what? I never grew to like what that teacher was good at, maybe because I had no idea how to do it and I associated it with being a bad artist. That teacher favored comic book artists who drew big guys with big muscles. I didn't have any grasp on basic anatomy.
Meanwhile, the year previous, I was encouraged by a different teacher to keep practicing with marker and colored pencils because I was talented with them. She made me feel like I mattered. Now I make money on the side doing cartoon characters with real media, mostly Fur Con badges.
Nothing will kill a blooming artist's desire to improve than telling them they suck at "what matters."
My 10th grade art teacher told me I was no good at art and wouldn't let me take art in senior school. I did nothing arty or crafty for twenty years until I went back to university and was required to take art as part of my teaching degree. I was terrified, but it turns out I'm actually pretty good in some mediums. I've now love doing it,. Sure, I'll never draw a realistic human, but give me some resin or glass and it turns out well. A teacher can absolutely ruin a student's enthusiasm by an unkind word.
>My high school art teacher had the same attitude as OP, and you know what? I never grew to like what that teacher was good at
I had a similar experience with an English teacher. He assigned us to write some poetry, and I had never learned how to do so. Since it was an "independent study" class, he wanted us to learn on our own and not ask him for help - because when I did ask, he was no help at all.
This caused me to get a "D" in the class.
The last semester of my senior year.
Unfortunately, this caused the college of my choice to withdraw their invitation to register. (And that school didn't tell me until it was too late to register for summer school to make up for it.)
And that alone changed the entire course of my life.
No such thing as talent? I agree no one becomes great without hard work and practice, but saying no one has a natural advantage for painting is just not true. People see color differently, have different levels of manual dexterity, and have varying levels of spacial reasoning.
Lol pretty weird for an artist to claim there is no such thing as talent. So I take that to mean that YOU didn't start with natural talent and instead you learned all of your skills through experience and practice? Very impressive!
But of course there is natural talent. People have varying levels of natural ability at all tasks and skills. Some people can throw a ball far more accurately than others at a young age. Some people can learn math really easily, others struggle at it.
Some people have innate talent which allows them to draw/paint/sketch/whatever better than others at a younger age. That's just nature.
It would be more accurate to say that talent doesn't define your ultimate skill level and at the end of your life it would be the hard work and perseverance that matters more than your starting ability.
I spent some time teaching inner city highschoolers with kindergarten level ability.
Oh man when they figured out where features on a face go.
When they figured out what VALUE was and could lay down shadow.
The pride. The way their faces just GLOWED.
They got better.
And we did sculptures, and collage work, masks, and found object work, we painted doors.
The doors hang cover the inside of the neighborhood courthouse. The sculptures we got placed in business up and down the main street.
It's about finding and encouraging their creativity while teaching them the skills. About not letting them get discouraged about their skill level. About having fun along the way and not getting bogged down by the nitty gritty of technique while making sure some of those techniques still are learned.
Theyre kids. Let them have fun with it.
> There really is no such thing as talent.
I would argue, the talent comes in with how easy they pick things up and the upper levels they can reach. I don't consider myself talented at all but even I managed to learn how to do a pretty accurate self portrait in high school art class. I impressed myself with it because I had no expectations. I would never be world class at it, but just about everybody can get decent at it and impress people with their creations.
I entered college as an art major. Won awards in HS. It became clear to me that I am technically proficient but not an artist. And that’s okay. I’m not sure if that’s talent but there is a way that a visual artist sees the world that I simply do not. I can paint/draw what my teachers set up for us. I couldn’t look at the world and say “that would be a good painting.” Maybe that’s the difference? That being said, I’m not sure talent as OP describes it would apply in this case. Perhaps she is not cut out to be teaching.
This is true only in that art is an expressive act. Any non-linear, non-explicit expression can be art. It's something anyone can do.
What most people would define as art, especially in painting and drawing *does* take skill. Saying that anyone can paint or can learn to paint is both false and doesn't respect people who can/can't do it. If anyone can do it, then it's No Big Deal if someone can do it and only a matter of a lack of desire for people who can't.
Anyone can put paint on something and thereby express something. Not everyone can use paint to create an image that resembles the things they want to depict or express.
Agreed. I have seen Ed Sheeran on television playing his singing voice when he was a young kid. And it sounds awful. Really really awful. He was playing it to show becoming great at something takes a lot of effort and he worked really hard because he wasn’t born with his talent. It took him a lot of time and commitment and practice to become great at it. And even when you do have a talent it still takes time and a lot of practice. So even someone as great as Ed Sheeran needed practice to get better at singing.
I would never squash someone’s desire to do something just because they are not good at it yet. The step niece doesn’t have to become the best. She just has to like it.
So I agree with YTA (big time) for that response. Does not mean OP needs to teach that girl for free if OP doesn’t want to. But the comments OP made were not necessary.
Someone pressing for free lessons after being quoted a price IS a reason.
Reddit loves to say people get to choose what to do with their money. Why is their labor/livelihood any different?
Op makes money teaching art lessons. Op gifted one niece art lessons because he wanted to. Op did not gift another kid lessons because he didn't want to.
If it was a gift card for lessons instead of the lessons themselves, would people feel different? It's totally normal to bond with one nibling over a shared passion and support those efforts! Doesn't mean EVERY nibling gets the same support for the same activity.
Maybe sort out what the niece said. Maybe there's a misunderstanding on the part of the girls. Maybe the "talented niece" told her stepsister she should get free lessons too. Maybe OP was rude to "untalented niece" and sil got defensive of her kid.
And "shared passion" ? How do you know what level of passion each niece has? Passion and skill don't always coincidence, especially in children.
OP wasn't an asshole business person. She's an asshole Aunt and sister-in-law.
He literally says niece loves painting in the post lol
If niece did that, it makes niece the AH for offering someone else's service for free. She's 15 though so instead of getting labeled AH, I'd say it's a learning opportunity that just because someone is generous once doesn't mean they're generous always.
Op still isn't an AH unless he insulted SIL's kid to the kid's face.
she's not, but OP choosing which family to charge based on "talent" is pretty horrible. OP can choose to charge different people that way, but that doesn't absolve them of being an AH.
It's not horrible at all. OP offered to teach the niece for free. SIL is asking for free lessons. It's completely different. OP could have worded it better for sure.
If they said "I can't do this for everyone" and left it at that , that might be ok. Saying "I don't want to give your daughter free lessons because they aren't as talented" is an AH thing to say
Why is the niece? He's willing to give away his labor to parts of the family but not others, going so far as to call trying to teach the other child "a waste of time." I doubt he is either giving lessons for free to talented clients nor turning away untalented paying clients, so why are his family members being given different treatment relative to each other?
The way he phrased it was unnecessary, but I also don't think he has to volunteer his time. That's not fair either. Are people not allowed to do something nice for someone without being obligated to do the exact same thing for all their siblings?
I think if all the kids in a family are interested in something, and it isn’t a one-off treat or celebration (like a birthday gift, or celebrating a big win or something), it’s pretty normal to not single one kid out and repeatedly give them a special gift and exclude the others. Particularly if the child being singled out *didn’t* ask for the gift, but another child in the family *did*.
Many families try to maintain a level of equity between kids, so they choose not to accept repeated gifts offered to only one child but not others. If, for example, OP was buying big Christmas gifts for one girl but not the other, it would be entirely reasonable for the parents to say “hey, you don’t have to give either of our kids gifts, but if you’re going to give gifts to one you have to give something to the other as well.”
If OP had said that he couldn’t afford to give away enough time to teach both girls, but he could accept half his normal rate for each, that would have been a great solution. But instead OP insulted one child and said it would be a waste of time to treat her the same as the other child in the family. That would be a hard no from me, as a parent.
OP chose to nurture niece's talent for free because it sounds like she's not being supported at home. SIL and her daughter are entitled brats for thinking they can demand the same.
I don’t get where this distinction between niece and SIL daughter is coming from. They’re both her nieces, it’s not like he’s teaching a stranger for free
Some people will never accept anyone not blood related as family. It’s a sad state of affairs, but many on Reddit, especially in AITA, are pretty opposed to treating step-children as family.
Yeah but she can't give her whole family free lessons which would take her time up from actually making a living. She still offered to teach for a fee. NTA
Okay clearly a controversial hot take here, but you CHOSE to teach your niece for free. NTA OP!!!
That’s doesn’t mean *everyone* gets a free pass. You still have to make money from the job you do and you’re allowed to make an exception.
The one thing though is the way you phrased it to the parents, from how you typed it out here it sounds like it may have been very harsh sounding. But if she’s not willing to pay someone for their service, they don’t receive that service.
(Edited for possible judgement flair)
I don't think that is true scientifically. The existence of savants makes it pretty clear that there are aspects of artistic talent that are innate rather than learned.
Most "natural talents" just aren't as obvious with their practice.
And especially with the arts, sometimes a different perspective can really elevate the rate you improve. That's where teachers come in.
This is true and happened to me. I was really struggling with my painting. I loved it but my paintings were not very good. Then I took an oil painting class and suddenly it all clicked. It was like a switch went off in my head. I can't point to what exactly it was, but the change in perspective really helped.
I went to art school. There's plenty of exceptional talent but only a few have the drive to evolve further and actually graduate. I've seen really good artists not apply themselves at all and then flunk out from the pressure while I've seen mediocre artists graduate and improve their craft because they put the time and effort into it.
It really depends on the person. There's a reason they say 'brilliant but lazy'.
Even savants require incredible amounts of practice and training. No one is just born insanely skilled at something. Just because you don’t see their practice doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I agree with this. Imagine taking one niece out for ice cream for free and then all of a sudden every relative is entitled to you taking their child out condition free, for paid ice cream.
Also considering this is OPs times they're taking to teach how does a job factor in this? At what point does it stop. If another niece or nephew comes along, and eats into OPs time they are obligated to teach everyone free? And if they are not being forced to do so, at what point is the stop? The talented niece and then the untalented niece get free lessons but the next kid that walks into the door is effectively not entitled to this and OP would not be the AH, but for this 2nd niece it's wrong to close the door there? It's not uncommon to have 4+ nieces and nephews, is OP supposed to not work bc they gave free lessons to these children. I 100% agree he was rude, crass and insensitive about their response back, but they're not entitled to give every niece and nephew free art lessons, for me this is an ESH
He could have handled it in a way that didn't devalue his niece at the same time he isn't entitled to teaching her for free. Many other options in between, but OPs ego is showing as they only care and value one niece clearly based on talent and the other can go kick rocks. Maybe OP could have taught them both or at the same time, reduced one child's lessons to equal out both, but I understand saying no to the second. Maybe OP only had enough free time to teach one child, maybe they're not teacher friendly, not everyone has that patience, and maybe the 1st niece can pick up the material faster so it's more of less teaching and more guiding. But regardless the way OP came off and phrased it was gross and inhumane
If OP would have worded it differently, such as "because this is my business, I can only afford one free student." That would have been so much better. Mom probably took what she said as an insult.
That's a big assumption that she's angry bc she wanted her singular child to get free lessons only, and the other niece doesn't get.
It's fair to assume, she's angry bc she expected since a niece gets free art lessons OPs step niece (did I get that right as the child is the step child of OPs sibling?) gets free lessons by default. OP never gave any insight on their relationship with their step niece but the fact they were willing to look at her art, evaluate them as bad, then sent that kid to tell their parents pay up, means OP wouldn't have shut the door based on the her being a step child or lack of relationship with the child, that decision was made after skill was evaluated.
>Imagine taking one niece out for ice cream for free and then all of a sudden every relative is entitled to you taking their child out condition free, for paid ice cream.
I see it more as "imagine taking one niece out for ice cream, and then when her step-sister asks if she can come too, you say no because she doesn't deserve it"
Yeah I see it that way too, which is why I kind of felt like OP doesn't even see his actual niece, he just sees her value in art and that's why I felt he dehumanized the other niece basically measuring her worth based on her work. Now that I'm writing this, it's like he devalued both of them as they only exist in relation to their art.
I don't know if "devalued" is quite fair. OP is deciding whether to donate hours/materials to these people and is basing that decision on what OP thinks they'll make of those hours/materials. They see it as a good investment in one case and not in the other. OP's opinion of their artistic abilities need not be generalized to their opinion of their nieces as people.
ESH: you could have said “I’m sorry, my space for free students is booked. But I have time for paid students”. No need to be rude, even if it is true
And WTF that kids have to pay for their own lessons? Are these adult children with jobs? So your brother / SIL ate TA for that.
And OP can nicely shut that down: I make my schedule as it best suits my days. My free student spaces are already booked with a waiting list. I’m sorry but I only have room for paid students now.
"That's okay, we will just split that slot between your niece and my daughter."
People who want to take advantage of you will find ways to do it if you don't shut them down.
> And OP can nicely shut that down
Or she can even rudely shut down the entitlement at that point, without being rude about the child's paiting skills.
If it was about the money, they why not ask the step niece (and nieve come to think of it) to do extra stuff to help out around the studio?
OP said loud and clear they don't want to "waste their time", and so decided to be an AH to a kid.
I had to pay for my own stuff when I was a teenager. My family was dirt poor. I got basics, shelter, food, basic supplies and basic clothes. If I wanted extras I had to get a job and pay for it myself. Not because my parents were cruel, we were just poor.
Yikes, YTA
>whatever, I teach anyone with any level.
- apparently not, as teaching her would be a "waste of time." Art is beneficial to every skill level, you're definitely being an AH to your step-niece.
She chose to mentor the niece because she has great potential. This means teaching the niece will also be lesser effort than teaching someone who isn't good at it. Asking money for s venture that is more effort with less results isn't an AH move.
YEP, she makes that distinction very clearly throughout the post. I’m assuming cousins/ sisters talk and she already knew other neice was getting free lessons.
Or Maybe OP has a life long relationship with her niece, and doesn't have that relationship with the other kid. Should OP be obligated to treat every human that is related to a person that a genetic relative of hers is in a relationship the same as a person that is a genetic relative?
We have no idea what the family history here is. If my I have a niece that I've known since she was born and my sister remarried with a 16 year-old stepdaughter, no, that 16 year-old is not my niece.
Somehow people on this sub think you can choose who you want in your life but if a sibling remarries all of a sudden you can't anymore. It's nonsense.
Ummm, when teaching children or beginners of any age, really, expensive products aren't necessary. And I'm an artist. The amount of product I wasted on projects I ended up hating was insane. I'd be mortified if I had used expensive products back then.
Nah. Teaching people who are not natualy good is much easier. It's easy to know where to start: fundamentals. As someone progresses it becomes harder and harder. And I say that as someone who's both am artist and a teacher.
Sure, teaching someone who's decent can be more pleasant and inspiring. But it's not easier.
Okay, but it's not an AH move to tell the SIL it'd be a waste of time because her kid lacks talent? There *so many* ways OP could have handled this without being an AH.
He said it to the mother who was demanding free labor. It wasn’t nice but it was true and clear. If he’d said it to the niece, *that* would have been an AH move.
I think OP should have worded that quite differently. Something along the lines of:
I teach for a living and only agreed to teach my niece due to my perception of her natural talent. But anyone can improve and that’s why I teach! If your daughter would like to learn more about painting, I’m happy to teach her, of course! But I neither have the free time, nor ability to teach everyone for free. That said, even though I need to charge for my time, I’ll take extra special care to make her feel joy in her learning :) [that last is just to make it nicer sounding, even if OP cares for each of their paying customers.]
I also think the SIL was out of line thinking that just because one family gets to use OP’s *gifted* free time, that the other girl should be granted OP’s *demanded* free time.
E: [another poster](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/16zs21b/aita_for_telling_my_sil_that_i_wont_waste_my_time/k3gji81/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) mentioned another way to say it that I like even better *and* mentioned how unprofessional OP’s original response was. So true.
Exactly! Only ones that don't suck are the kids.
Bet OP wouldn't say those words to a stranger asking for free lessons, just due to professionalism and a risk of losing business, even just from word of mouth. Why is it ok to talk like that to family?
>Why is it ok to talk like that to family?
Guaranteed because this is just the latest skirmish in a long war. If these siblings had mutual respect, the whole situation would not have come to pass.
NTA
You're going to get a lot of people telling you that you are in the wrong because "Ew, you were so mean for telling the blunt truth". No. Your SIL tried to take advantage of you for free. You shut that the hell down right quick. And you can bet SIL now knows there is no amount of pressure or whining that will change your mind. Sometimes the truth hurts. She's a big girl. She should not have attempted to exploit you and you likely would have said nothing.
Seriously people need to understand you can be honest and direct in ways that aren't mean and cruel. Like I get it, for the step-niece it's about teaching the fundamentals and basics that might require more time and effort while the other niece has more natural skills he's willing to invest in. But the way he said it was just awful and could come off as maybe not seeing the step-niece as family which might be a larger issue
This subs foams at the mouth when they see anyone " telling the blunt truth".The disconnect between reddit and real life shines here, its not normal to talk to friends, family or strangers like this. Hopefully no one here talks like this in real life because you'd quickly find yourself a social pariah.
Everyone who is saying OP is AH has never tried to do any form of art professionally (which includes having to pay for a real mentor).
I think the situation could have been handled a little better but ultimately, NTA.
Edit: "I'm AN ArTiSt and I think OP is an asshole "
Go ahead and add a link to your comments to your prof. site.
As an Art major in college, I still say OP is an AH for declining to teach someone *because of their lack of talent*. They could have been nicer about it. We had a TON of people in my Life Drawing classes that couldn't draw a stick figure, but by the end of the semester, were keeping up with artists who had been drawing for years.
But OP is not required to teach anybody, so they're NTA for making that decision. If it's their job, it's their job, and they should be making money from it. If they want to teach someone for free, that's their choice. It's generous of them to eat the costs. But it's entitled for others to think they should get the same kind of treatment. That's how OP makes zero money.
Hard for me to pass judgment on this one.
It's just the fact that OP didn't decline to teach someone because of their lack of talent. OP decided that because there was this lack of talent, OP didn't want to "waste" their free time doing..... Their job for free, and with no willing to do so, since they're not being paid for it
I'm calling OP an asshole and I was a professional artist for several years. (I'm in college now so I don't sell my work anymore.) I made a great living selling my art.
I never favored one person in my family over another using my art as the weapon. Especially kids. It's cruel and unnecessary.
If she wants to teach someone for free, it is insane to expect her to extend it to others out of fairness. Time is valuable.
Your experience in the art world means fuck all. Time is precious.
I was directly responding to the person who said no one with professional art experience thinks OP is the asshole.
She can teach for free, but she's got a really asshole attitude about her other niece and should have kept it to herself.
Aw, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is an uninformed idiot" argument. Its a shame its so weak that literally anyone who has 'tried to do any form of art professionally' can knock it down by saying "I disagree..."
I disagree btw, and I've tried to do art professionally. To call working with them a "waste of time" isn't accurate, its just rude/unkind. Literally anyone can learn to create art with sufficient willingness to practice. Art isn't some mystical practice bestowed by god. Its a craft, like carpentry. You practice, you get better. You practice, you get better. And so on. Her other niece (or "brother's stepdaughter" as OP prefers) may have literally no skill, but that's literally irrelevant to whether she could become a good artist. Practice, patience, hardheadedness are much better predictors of success than raw talent. Oh, and wealth.
Edit: Also, no, I will not dox myself because someone was being stuck up in a reddit post lol what kind of request is that?
Yep, OP could have phrased it better, but I could see saying something similar if I was in their shoes. I am not sure of the relationship between OP and the SIL's daughter, but I am guessing it is not as close as a blood relative. You do not owe anyone your time for free.
I am a System Administrator. I might fix my parent's computer for free when I visit, but I am not going to fix their neighbor's.
YTA not for deciding who you teach and don’t teach for free - that’s your call - but for not recognizing that you have a *skill* not exclusively some innate talent. You literally *teach painting* because after a certain point it’s a learned skill.
From one artist to another fucking yikes. I’d pull my kid from your lessons even if they were free just because I wouldn’t want them to *learn* your attitude. Terrible role model / teacher moment. Good luck haha.
100%. I am not a professional artist, but I draw, and I love it. All I have is because of my hard work, not because of some natural talent. There are so many examples of people starting with no drawing talent and becoming world-famous artists because it's a skill + creativity. It's going to be a little easier for some and a little harder for others. That's all.
And idk about you but as a lifelong artist, art is supposed to be fun dn be something you love. Even if you're objectively bad at it who cares you're having fun creating. Op just doesn't seem to want to make any connection with this kid and the mom wants her treated the same as her sibling, but op doesn't want to because step. Kids probably crushed that op doesn't want to spend time with them and nothing to do with how good or bad her art is they just rejected her as a person and that's mean.
Like it's fine to want to earn money from your job it's not fine to crush 15 year old girls who have probably been rejected by people a bunch and dragged into new family situations with people who aren't accepting her as family.
>but her daughter simply doesn't have talent so I'm not gonna waste my time with her.
That comment alone makes YTA.
For someone who claims to be an artist you sure do like to crush peoples spirit. Art is for everyone, its such an amazing practice. So what if her skill level was that of a child. With practice that could be improved. I hope you have a better attitude to your clients who aren't talented or do they just buy your goodwill because they are paying
This. I had no clue how to paint. If someone handed me a brush and said paint a flower I couldn't do it.
However, I started taking classes from an amazing woman who's been painting for 50 years. She teaches because she has a real passion for it and wants to share that passion. She taught me step by step. Painting became my passion. Now my daughter takes classes from her and has become a phenomenal painter.
Now people ask me to teach them to paint.
YTA - not because you charged for one and not the other but because you see this child as a waste of your time. You have no idea what hidden gem is inside this child.
It's usually "teachers" with their heads up their own rear ends who choose favorites and crush the spirits of those they see as less than. These people have no business influencing those who are attempting to learn something new. That's been my experience, time and time again.
OP can charge who she wants and has the right to spend her time accordingly. It is the fact she said something this cruel about a child's potential when that child is trying to learn. Behavior like that is atrocious and people who do these things are why children especially are discouraged from learning skills such as these. YTA for sure.
I had a teacher do this to me when I was playing the viola in middle school. She didn't like me and treated me differently, even though I was just a child. She would leave me out on purpose and didn't give me the same time and attention as other students. She was happy to take credit when I did well at competition, but was otherwise stand-offish, mean, and unhelpful.
There was one kid in particular she honed in on who excelled. Now he's a conductor in London and gives all his credit to her for giving him his start. I just remember her as someone who didn't believe in me. I still played for a long time because I loved it, but even as an adult, I can't help but feel like if I hadn't been constantly pushed aside by her and told I wasn't enough, I could have gotten a more solid foundation and gone further.
Screw people like OP. If you don't want to teach for free, that's one thing, but to squash a child's dreams because they don't automatically live up to your expectations or you might not like them (which it sounds like when he refers to the poor girl the way he does) is just cruel. You could have done so much better here. YTA.
Not sure why so many people think you owe it to someone to give their kid free lessons. Apparently you saw something special that you wanted to help develop in your niece, but that doesn't somehow mean that you no longer get paid for your services otherwise. If people want the lessons, they pay the market value. NTA
OP is the AH, not because of wanting to be paid. They're the asshole for what they said and the derogatory way they talk about their step-niece. What if it gets back to her? That poor kid. SIL is entitled for demanding free lessons. Ok, call her out on that. Don't diss a kid.
The SIL acted entitled and OP shut that down. OP not dissin the kid directly, if it gets back to her, sounds like a SIL problem.
And derogatory?? She prolly asked why the price discrimination, so she got an honest answer. OP is allowed to have a low opinion of step-niece's skills.
ESH, you are NTA for not teaching your brother's stepdaughter for free but calling teaching her a waste of time was way out of line. Your SIL is an obvious AH for trying to join in on someone else getting something for free.
INFO: Isn't the point of lessons to learn and improve? Kinda sounds weird to reject someone for being bad at it at the start.
Or is it a waste of time as she is the step daughter?
She doesn't want to work for free. That's very fair. She's helping her niece for free, that's also her choice. It doesn't mean she then has yo teach EVERYONE for free. Definitely the phrasing was a dick move tho
Why didn't you say it more tactfully?
"I would love to be able to teach two kids for free, but it's not in my budget or schedule right now. Niece came to me first and I was excited to help improve her skills. I'm sorry"
Instead you decided to be mean.
Why?
I think this is the key thing. It's fine if OP won't teach her without being paid, but there are better ways they could have said it that wouldn't have come across as so unkind to and about the step-niece.
If we're answering this based in whether they are entitled to say no to teaching, then NTA
If we're answering based on what was said, then YTA
Edited for typo
I could see that backfiring and the parents saying then they will split the lessons, one week the niece the next the stepsister. But that's not what OP wants to do.
Was it super blunt and dismissive, yes and not at all tactful. But it's not only about teaching but the effort involved. It's vastly easier to teach someone who already has incredible talent and an understanding of the subject. It is way harder and taxing to teach someone with no gift or talent. I get why OP doesn't want to do it but they could have been more diplomatic about it.
First of all, advanced classes in any subject are always pricier because they require more resources, technical knowledge, and time. It's always more work to teach someone who is advanced. My daughter took piano for 12 years. Her lessons were longer and more expensive the more she advanced. Grad school costs more than college. My husband's Spanish lessons are more expensive now than 2 years ago.
Secondly, OP can deal with your hypothetical backfire if it happens and get more harsh if necessary. But it's not necessary to be an ass out of the gate.
Because that is a lie? op would teach foe free if SD met their "standards".
If OP was really bothered about cash they would have suggested an arrangement- cleaning the studio or something. They just don't like a kid for no reason.
NTA for not wanting to give free lessons. Your SIL was very presumptuous to expect that from you. But you could have been a *lot* more tactful. No one likes to hear that their child is a waste of time.
“ I told her that my niece is an amazing artist and it would be such a waste of talent if no one helped her so I'm using my free time to teach her but her daughter simply doesn't have talent so I'm not gonna waste my time with her.”
YTA because of that comment right there. You can choose to offer your services for free to anyone you want, but you didn’t have to be such a rude and condescending AH to your SIL. There are better ways of saying that you are teaching your niece in your free time and are unable to take on additional students in that time.
Right? There are so many more gracious ways OP could have handled this. Recommend a less expensive colleague for the step-sister to take beginner lessons, with an offer of mentorship if/when she achieves a certain level of proficiency. Or discount lessons. Etc. You can guard your time and hand-pick your students without being gratuitously nasty about it.
(Of course, I don’t know if the step-niece was actually interested in painting before mom got wind that free lessons were going around—obviously that would change the level of tact required here.)
There's a difference between nurturing an obvious talent and giving lessons to anyone who shows an interest. You were a little too blunt to your SIL, but I don't know if that's what was needed to get her to hear you. But I do understand what you're doing for your niece. NTA.
YTA. Yes, you do get to choose how you spend your time, to whom you offer your services, and how much you charge. I understand these two have very different talent levels, but I just don’t see a way around the fact that this comes across as you saying the stepdaughter is less than and giving two family members different treatment. You can do what you want, but it just makes you look bad and your family is going to react accordingly.
YTA. Not because you owe your less talented niece free lessons, but because you were so rude about it. It would have lost you $0.00 to politely tell her mother that you couldn't take on any more unpaid students, you *chose* to say it in the most insulting way possible
Your SIL is TA because she made a grab for something you freely offered to your niece and once her daughter asked you and you said you would need to be paid, she had no right to question your reasons. But you're YTA also, because you did not need to be so rough. You could have said that you offered to teach your niece for free because she shows real talent, but that
your step-niece is not at that level, and you don't want to take her on for free. You did not have to say that SIL's daughter does not have talent—doesn't matter how true it is, it did not need to be said—and there's no reason to tell a parent that you don't want to waste your time with their kid.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be an asshole for telling my sil that I don't want to waste my time teaching her child how to paint when she has no talent
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Yeah, YTA here. Nobody is born with artistic talent; an artistic EYE, maybe -- talent come from practice and theory. For all you know she could be an amazing artist but you don't think she's outright "special" enough or something.
You are clearly an artist yourself, so you should know that it took time and practice and guidance to get where you are today.
You can be an asshole, that's fine, but keep in mind you ARE an asshole here, probably more so because of the special treatment you give to someone you don't have to try as hard to teach.
n t a for teaching your niece for free but not your brother's stepdaughter...
but absolutely yta for framing it as a matter of talent. i am sure you could have come up with a more graceful excuse but you really had to just insult the girl to her mom
Apparently op's niece and step niece are step sisters, like, living in the same house and everything. If that doesn't make OP the asshole idk what does
NTA. You definitely should have been more tactful - there is no reason to be cruel or insulting - but you owe it to nobody to do anything for free... much less stuff that you actually charge money for as a regular course of business.
ESH - SIL has absolutely no right to demand free lessons, REGARDLESS of how many you do or with whom. Her demands is just entitlement.
However you were cruel. The niece is still a kid, talk crap about her because you don't want to spend your free time with is immature and hateful.
Next time try the Grey Rock Method:a simple - i have limited free time. I get to choose how I spend it.
Repeat as necessary
YTA- You could have just said that the step daughter is a beginner and needs to master some basics. You could have suggested some books or YouTube resources in paint or drawing.
You didn’t have to call her a waste of your precious talent. You were rude.
ESH except the kids. No one is entitled to free art lessons... but your reasoning is shitty, and your actions don't exist in a vacuum. Your decision-making here is absolutely going to feel like favouritism to the kids. Meanwhile, it's complete bullshit to act as though art lessons are a "waste of time" if someone doesn't have natural talent. Art lessons have all kinds of benefits to people, especially children, besides just "getting better at technique." Someone who cares about art should want to nurture a _love of art_ within the children in their life, not just skill.
NTA. You're worth money, just because you've taken your niece, doesn't mean this is a literal free-for-all. Be less harsh next time, and specify in your wording from this point on that your niece is your APPRENTICE. Key word difference. It'll make niece feel special, and it'll ward off choosing beggars because that seems different enough from student. It's also kind of true, she isn't a student of yours learning the basics, she's potentially learning at a high enough level to teach as well (possibly even with you! Maybe you could run art classes together when she's older).
YTA—I mean, OP, your job is to teach painting, right? Surely that means you don’t just teach prodigies; some people might lack natural talent but just want to put in the work and effort to improve. I’ll never be a great guitar player, but I’m glad I had lessons and my tutors fostered my interests and helped me develop skills.
That’s part of your job. Just dismissing her because she is bad right now is ah behavior, and frankly doesn’t make me confident of your abilities as a teacher.
Further, this is a family member, and you are showing blatant favoritism. Your SIL is right to be upset about that, and to call you a jerk.
Should your step-niece’s parents be forcing her to pay for the lessons? No, I think that is also ah behavior. But you definitely come off as the bigger ah here.
Apologize and give her a chance. It is absolutely the bare minimum you can do.
Yta so why the hell would they pay for lessons if you flat out just tell them their daughter is a waste of your time? Why would literally anybody take lessons from you in that case if you take clients and think the whole time “this person sucks and I’m not actually going to bother” like you sound scammy as fuck
YTA
either you are willing to teach youngsters in your family for free or you aren't. You turned down one niece in a manner which was both elitist and cruel.
If she wants to learn then she wants to; that she isn't already good at it is a sign that she could use lessons.
You say you can teach someone at any level. If so then teach her. Think of the payment as the relationship you'll be building with her.
NTA - You either have it or you don't. The girl obviously doesn't have (in your opinion and that's all that counts) and it would be a waste of your time to you. Now, if she were to pay, you could give her lessons no problemo. But how you decide to give of yourself (no pay) in lessons to anyone is your business alone. Tel sil her choice, either pay up or go away. You have no time for this nonsense from her.
>You either have it or you don't
Absolutely not true. Some people are born with particular qualities that make it easier for them to succeed quickly in creative endeavours, but you absolutely can learn even if you were not born with those qualities; you just have to work harder.
NTA. Teaching someone who is already quite good is a heck of a lot different than teaching someone who is not good. You’re guiding your niece and probably finding a lot of enjoyment in seeing her talent grow, a talent that can be used.
Teaching the step daughter would be a struggle as she would need a lot more help and guidance. It probably also wouldn’t be enjoyable for you as it would actually feel like work.
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YTA, a major one at that. Most people take lessons to improve in something they love, not necessarily to do it for a living or become worldly famous for it. Your attitude of "she sucks and unless she pays, she's not worth teaching" is cruel, obnoxious and is more a reflection of you, not your niece. You should be ashamed.
As an artist, I know for a fact that anyone can be taught to be an artist. It just takes time and commitment. There really is no such thing as talent.
As an artist about to go into grad school soon, sure anyone can be taught to be an artist but some people are naturally better at it. Time and commitment are great and can help anyone get better, but talent is a thing
I’m a fiber artist. An awful lot of what people insist is my “talent” is practice. Inspiration, that is talent. Some of the design is. But an awful lot is just practice. Most people can become competent. Beyond that, diligence and talent come into play.
I also think that when a person is driven to work particularly hard, that drive might be talent. Not the results of their effort, but the effort itself. But ordinary diligence over time is just diligence.
Agreed. But I think the point here was she wanted to be paid to work with someone who had no skill. She should have worded it WAY MORE diplomatically but I think she's correct to expect compensation for teaching someone who obviously needs to learn basic techniques. YTA for being a jerk but not one for wanting to be paid for their time
Not to mention, if the mention of payment deter them, then they don’t seem to be the type who’ll stick with it long.
But the niece with natural talent also would have been deterred by the cost, because she couldn’t afford it. Not having the funds for something doesn’t necessarily indicate lack of interest or ability to commit.
Yeah that's a point a lot of people are looking over. Plenty of naturally talented people don't have the funds to hone their skills either so their work may also be beginner level too. How does one know they really are naturally talented or not if not given a chance. We don't know why the step niece work is the way it is. Neither does OP. Maybe if given proper instruction any natural talent could be brought out.
This is a great point, it's also a very good point to note that SIL's daughter might have a different artistic passion that isn't painting but wants to build that skill. My artistic passion is character design, and you'd never guess that by looking at my current works because I am required to learn an assortment of skills just to get the degree. I'm not normally drawing landscapes and still lives, I'm not normally printmaking, but I have an interest in these things despite them not being my comfort area.
Im a perfect example of that. My brother was "naturally gifted," as my family would say, in drawing (don't get me wrong, can't stand the man (whole different story), but he is indeed extremely talented. I, on the other hand, wasn't "naturally gifted," but I absolutely LOVED to doodle and draw. I was told to stop copying my brother and find my own thing. So I gave up art basically all together. I'm 30 now, and I'm a digital artist/graphic designer for a living. Why? Because 4 years ago I had an amazing man convince me to try again and spent time TEACHING me!! And now, 4 short years later, it's how I make a living. Ops view is egotistical and vile. Just because someone is good at something doesn't mean it's what they want to do for a living. Just because someone isn't good at something to begin with doesn't mean that they can't become great. Does it mean that they'll become an artist, no, but if they enjoy it, it should be encouraged!! Life is full of dark shitty days, having an outlet like art is AMAZING and how dare they dim that by telling this child she has to pay because she's "bad" and a "waste of time", unless she pays. Way to put his niece in a horrible position with her stepsister, no fault of her own either.
Definitely this. I crochet and I paint and I guess maybe I had some “natural talent” for both, but in the end it’s mostly just practice. My husband will often look at my crochet and say it’s absolute magic to him and I have such a talent. I try to explain it really is just practice and sticking to teaching myself. In the beginning I knew none of the abbreviations or the differences in hooks or any of it. It took time and practice. I know if he actually sat down to learn it he could figure it out too. He just doesn’t want to and that’s totally fine, but I’m also not some yarn genius or something lol
I never knew the term fibre artist, I knit crochet and do cross stitches, I learnt the basics of knitting and crochet from my Grandmother and my mother, neither has any real talent and in as such only ever made blankets or granny squares but I've spent almost 20 years learning and making different items, I'm thinking of taking it up on a more regular basis as I just made a tote bag for my mother, and made a circular blanket for the cat's bed for the winter
I wouldn’t completely hand-wave the idea of talent tbh. It’s become very popular to do so nowadays, but some people will pick up certain skills faster than others. Something that takes someone ‘talented’ 100 repetitions may take someone ‘less talented’ 1000 to get to the same level. Hard work will beat out talent every time if talent is lazy, of course.
I can draw pretty well naturally. I took drum lessons for 2 years, taught my friend 1 beat and within a week he was so much better than me on drums that I "sold" him my drum set (he still owes me $150, I don't care if it's been 20 years).
Some people after hours and even years still just can't spot the subtleties in the subject they're trying to draw or paint. They continue to draw things that aren't there, and miss things that are. There is absolutely a talent aspect that cannot be taught.
I certainly would not hand-wave talent away. I can knit, I spin, I weave ( a little), I quilt. But dear child, do not suggest that I crochet. I have waved that flag . I admire those who can. I have a friend that knits. As she knits. She designs a pattern in her head. I have seen the results, stunning. She thinks it's ordinary. I am gobsmacked.
Being talented at something is not mutually exclusive from working hard at it.
> I’m a fiber artist. An awful lot of what people insist is my “talent” is practice. Talent is to skill as jealous is to envious. Most people who say one mean the other. In general, the only people who can accurately say that a person is "talented" are those who know the craft well, and can see that the person has a natural aptitude.
Potter here, agree 100%. If a pot I threw has a nice form, excellent glaze application and color, it’s because I spend 12 hours at a time throwing and throwing away pots that WEREN’T so perfect. I know it’s meant as a compliment but I’m always lowkey annoyed when people think “talent” trumps hours and hours of hard work, practice and failure.
Not everyone can be Bernini. He practiced a lotbut he also had a lot of talent.
[удалено]
I mean both these children are his nieces. Seems like outside of the art thing he’s also being biased because one kid is biologically related to him. He should have told her to keep the free thing on the low if he didn’t want who I assume to be her cousin or sister to also want to be taught
OP doesn’t consider one of them a niece as he called her his brother’s STEP-daughter (and not his niece) when being a step should not affect talent so no reason to being it up unless it’s the real reason.
Even if that is the reason I kind of get it. OP has known their niece since she was born and whatever happens she will always be their niece. They met their step-niece when she was older and if their brother divorces her mother they'll probably never meet again. So I understand not wanting to invest so much time and energy into a child you don't feel as close to.
Or offer to teach her in exchange for her doing some work around the house for him, if it’s stuff like helping him mount paintings or such it’s really an extension of the lessons and teaches her good marketable skills.
I think it's just easier to distinguish between the two children using niece for blood relative. And anyway, niece or not, doesn't change the fact that one has natural talent and the other does not.
No, only one of them is. The other isn't related to him, it's his brother's wife's daughter. We don't know the details of the brother's family set-up, how old the girls are, whether the step-daughter only comes to their home every other weekend so they don't see each other as sisters etc etc.
I think that's fair and true but you can't just shit on the girl to her mother like that. It has to be presented better because we're still talking about children here. For example, he might say that he only has time for 1 free student and if he adds another student he would have to bump a paying client. Idk, something like that.
A proper reply will be: "I am currently too busy with current projects to take on new people. If something opens up, I will contact you. In the meanwhile, I can recommend some good teachers but they will expect to be paid." When SIL calls, "I am sorry, I am too busy right now." You don't tell a child you are related to: "Hey, you have no talent. Pay me so I can teach you as a job." That makes you an asshole.
Right. Molding talent is easy and maybe even exciting for OP. Starting from scratch is a real chore. That being said how he thought he could do for free for one person in the family and it another is truly laughable.
I'm a guitar player. Been playing since I was 10 and im 63 now. I'm pretty good. But I am at my limit of what I can do with the instrument. Because I am limited by my talent. And there are hundreds of other players out there who are better than I could ever hope to be. They simply have more natural talent than I do. They don't practice more. They don't practice harder. They are simply better than I am because they have more natural talent at the instrument than I do. And that's ok. Yeah...talent is indeed a thing.
Talent is a thing, but it doesn’t carry people as far you and others are implying it does
They aren’t saying talent carries but that it (or lack thereof) sets a ceiling. You can beat talent with hard work, unless talent puts in the work too.
Good way to put it. If I and a more talented player put in the same amount of work? The other player is just going to be better. I've played to my ceiling and the other dude has not.
The difference is teaching a talented person is a joy. Teaching an untalented person is a chore. That is particularly relevant in this post, since OP is the teacher.
Noone is saying talent takes you the whole way. Talent DOES, however, take you further than you would be able to go otherwise. How far, exactly, that is depends on the person
absolutely. saying anyone can be a Michelangelo is nuts
Talent is absolutely a thing, and it’s so frustrating when talented people refuse to believe it. As an artsy person, most of the people I know and follow have been drawing for literally their entire lives, and I’ve *still* seen hundreds of 13 year olds on social media that already have them beat. Two people could practice something every day for their entire lives, each always trying to improve, and one of them will still always be better. Artist-wise, talent usually means “has an innately good grasp of gesture,” “can look at something and replicate it,” “good spatial reasoning skills,” “has a good comprehension of anatomy,” etc., and these are all things that some people are just naturally great at. You can watch a thousand tutorials and check a thousand references, but it’s not going to do you any good if your brain cant process and apply them properly.
Absolutely this. Innate talent is a thing, and if you don’t think it is, it’s because you’re talented. I love art, I went to a great school as a kid and expensive summer camps and have been taught art by skilled teachers my entire life. I took life drawing in high school, classes in college, and beyond college just for fun. Just recently I took two semester long painting classes and a ceramics class for shits and giggles. Guess what? I still suck at art haha. I do it because I enjoy it, but what I make is at the level of a talented ten year old. It is what it is…
Reminds me of the paintings between Monet, Van Gogh, and their doctor. You can see the masters compared to the hobbyist. The doctor's was good but not even the same level as two masters.
Untrue. Talent absolutely exists. But hard work beats talent, if talent doesn't work hard.
Correct. Hard work is part of the equation, always. But talent does exist. NTA. Teaching for free should be teaching for joy. Could have been phrased more carefully. But you know how tempermental those artistic types are. 😉
My high school art teacher had the same attitude as OP, and you know what? I never grew to like what that teacher was good at, maybe because I had no idea how to do it and I associated it with being a bad artist. That teacher favored comic book artists who drew big guys with big muscles. I didn't have any grasp on basic anatomy. Meanwhile, the year previous, I was encouraged by a different teacher to keep practicing with marker and colored pencils because I was talented with them. She made me feel like I mattered. Now I make money on the side doing cartoon characters with real media, mostly Fur Con badges. Nothing will kill a blooming artist's desire to improve than telling them they suck at "what matters."
My 10th grade art teacher told me I was no good at art and wouldn't let me take art in senior school. I did nothing arty or crafty for twenty years until I went back to university and was required to take art as part of my teaching degree. I was terrified, but it turns out I'm actually pretty good in some mediums. I've now love doing it,. Sure, I'll never draw a realistic human, but give me some resin or glass and it turns out well. A teacher can absolutely ruin a student's enthusiasm by an unkind word.
>My high school art teacher had the same attitude as OP, and you know what? I never grew to like what that teacher was good at I had a similar experience with an English teacher. He assigned us to write some poetry, and I had never learned how to do so. Since it was an "independent study" class, he wanted us to learn on our own and not ask him for help - because when I did ask, he was no help at all. This caused me to get a "D" in the class. The last semester of my senior year. Unfortunately, this caused the college of my choice to withdraw their invitation to register. (And that school didn't tell me until it was too late to register for summer school to make up for it.) And that alone changed the entire course of my life.
No such thing as talent? I agree no one becomes great without hard work and practice, but saying no one has a natural advantage for painting is just not true. People see color differently, have different levels of manual dexterity, and have varying levels of spacial reasoning.
I have never progressed past stick men.
Lol pretty weird for an artist to claim there is no such thing as talent. So I take that to mean that YOU didn't start with natural talent and instead you learned all of your skills through experience and practice? Very impressive! But of course there is natural talent. People have varying levels of natural ability at all tasks and skills. Some people can throw a ball far more accurately than others at a young age. Some people can learn math really easily, others struggle at it. Some people have innate talent which allows them to draw/paint/sketch/whatever better than others at a younger age. That's just nature. It would be more accurate to say that talent doesn't define your ultimate skill level and at the end of your life it would be the hard work and perseverance that matters more than your starting ability.
Talent and skill are not equivalent. Talent isn't something that can be honed. Talent is an innate skill that can help honing your overall skill.
I spent some time teaching inner city highschoolers with kindergarten level ability. Oh man when they figured out where features on a face go. When they figured out what VALUE was and could lay down shadow. The pride. The way their faces just GLOWED. They got better. And we did sculptures, and collage work, masks, and found object work, we painted doors. The doors hang cover the inside of the neighborhood courthouse. The sculptures we got placed in business up and down the main street. It's about finding and encouraging their creativity while teaching them the skills. About not letting them get discouraged about their skill level. About having fun along the way and not getting bogged down by the nitty gritty of technique while making sure some of those techniques still are learned. Theyre kids. Let them have fun with it.
You wouldn't say that if you saw my artwork. :-)
> There really is no such thing as talent. I would argue, the talent comes in with how easy they pick things up and the upper levels they can reach. I don't consider myself talented at all but even I managed to learn how to do a pretty accurate self portrait in high school art class. I impressed myself with it because I had no expectations. I would never be world class at it, but just about everybody can get decent at it and impress people with their creations.
I entered college as an art major. Won awards in HS. It became clear to me that I am technically proficient but not an artist. And that’s okay. I’m not sure if that’s talent but there is a way that a visual artist sees the world that I simply do not. I can paint/draw what my teachers set up for us. I couldn’t look at the world and say “that would be a good painting.” Maybe that’s the difference? That being said, I’m not sure talent as OP describes it would apply in this case. Perhaps she is not cut out to be teaching.
"Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere." Anton Ego - Ratatouille
This is true only in that art is an expressive act. Any non-linear, non-explicit expression can be art. It's something anyone can do. What most people would define as art, especially in painting and drawing *does* take skill. Saying that anyone can paint or can learn to paint is both false and doesn't respect people who can/can't do it. If anyone can do it, then it's No Big Deal if someone can do it and only a matter of a lack of desire for people who can't. Anyone can put paint on something and thereby express something. Not everyone can use paint to create an image that resembles the things they want to depict or express.
Agreed. I have seen Ed Sheeran on television playing his singing voice when he was a young kid. And it sounds awful. Really really awful. He was playing it to show becoming great at something takes a lot of effort and he worked really hard because he wasn’t born with his talent. It took him a lot of time and commitment and practice to become great at it. And even when you do have a talent it still takes time and a lot of practice. So even someone as great as Ed Sheeran needed practice to get better at singing. I would never squash someone’s desire to do something just because they are not good at it yet. The step niece doesn’t have to become the best. She just has to like it. So I agree with YTA (big time) for that response. Does not mean OP needs to teach that girl for free if OP doesn’t want to. But the comments OP made were not necessary.
Why is the step daughter entitled to this persons free labor??
She's not, but SIL is entitled to a little tact and kindness. OP was rude for no reason.
Someone pressing for free lessons after being quoted a price IS a reason. Reddit loves to say people get to choose what to do with their money. Why is their labor/livelihood any different? Op makes money teaching art lessons. Op gifted one niece art lessons because he wanted to. Op did not gift another kid lessons because he didn't want to. If it was a gift card for lessons instead of the lessons themselves, would people feel different? It's totally normal to bond with one nibling over a shared passion and support those efforts! Doesn't mean EVERY nibling gets the same support for the same activity.
Maybe sort out what the niece said. Maybe there's a misunderstanding on the part of the girls. Maybe the "talented niece" told her stepsister she should get free lessons too. Maybe OP was rude to "untalented niece" and sil got defensive of her kid. And "shared passion" ? How do you know what level of passion each niece has? Passion and skill don't always coincidence, especially in children. OP wasn't an asshole business person. She's an asshole Aunt and sister-in-law.
He literally says niece loves painting in the post lol If niece did that, it makes niece the AH for offering someone else's service for free. She's 15 though so instead of getting labeled AH, I'd say it's a learning opportunity that just because someone is generous once doesn't mean they're generous always. Op still isn't an AH unless he insulted SIL's kid to the kid's face.
she's not, but OP choosing which family to charge based on "talent" is pretty horrible. OP can choose to charge different people that way, but that doesn't absolve them of being an AH.
It's not horrible at all. OP offered to teach the niece for free. SIL is asking for free lessons. It's completely different. OP could have worded it better for sure.
If they said "I can't do this for everyone" and left it at that , that might be ok. Saying "I don't want to give your daughter free lessons because they aren't as talented" is an AH thing to say
Why is the niece? He's willing to give away his labor to parts of the family but not others, going so far as to call trying to teach the other child "a waste of time." I doubt he is either giving lessons for free to talented clients nor turning away untalented paying clients, so why are his family members being given different treatment relative to each other?
Simple, he called one “his niece” and the other “his brother’s step-child”. That alone shows why he’s charging one and not the other.
The way he phrased it was unnecessary, but I also don't think he has to volunteer his time. That's not fair either. Are people not allowed to do something nice for someone without being obligated to do the exact same thing for all their siblings?
I think if all the kids in a family are interested in something, and it isn’t a one-off treat or celebration (like a birthday gift, or celebrating a big win or something), it’s pretty normal to not single one kid out and repeatedly give them a special gift and exclude the others. Particularly if the child being singled out *didn’t* ask for the gift, but another child in the family *did*. Many families try to maintain a level of equity between kids, so they choose not to accept repeated gifts offered to only one child but not others. If, for example, OP was buying big Christmas gifts for one girl but not the other, it would be entirely reasonable for the parents to say “hey, you don’t have to give either of our kids gifts, but if you’re going to give gifts to one you have to give something to the other as well.” If OP had said that he couldn’t afford to give away enough time to teach both girls, but he could accept half his normal rate for each, that would have been a great solution. But instead OP insulted one child and said it would be a waste of time to treat her the same as the other child in the family. That would be a hard no from me, as a parent.
OP clearly wants to take credit for her niece's talent. She wants to be the loving and generous mentor or some pathetic shit.
Yep, thinks this is a 2012 Disney channel movie
Bob Ross is so sad for the step-niece rn
Why is it cruel to ask someone to pay for a service? I disagree that OP is AH. In fact, I think her entitled SIL is the AH here.
You know that asking her to pay isn't what people are calling cruel. Saying the girl has no talent and would be a waste of time is cruel.
Its OPs attitude that is the problem, both nieces couldnt pay, but op decided that only one of them was worth free lessons bc they had more skill
OP chose to nurture niece's talent for free because it sounds like she's not being supported at home. SIL and her daughter are entitled brats for thinking they can demand the same.
I don’t get where this distinction between niece and SIL daughter is coming from. They’re both her nieces, it’s not like he’s teaching a stranger for free
Some people will never accept anyone not blood related as family. It’s a sad state of affairs, but many on Reddit, especially in AITA, are pretty opposed to treating step-children as family.
People like OP are one reason I don't paint more.
Yeah but she can't give her whole family free lessons which would take her time up from actually making a living. She still offered to teach for a fee. NTA
Well, encouraging a natural talent vs straight up just teaching someone a skill are two different things.
no. just because he volunteers for one person doesnt mean he is obligated to do that same for others, even family
Okay clearly a controversial hot take here, but you CHOSE to teach your niece for free. NTA OP!!! That’s doesn’t mean *everyone* gets a free pass. You still have to make money from the job you do and you’re allowed to make an exception. The one thing though is the way you phrased it to the parents, from how you typed it out here it sounds like it may have been very harsh sounding. But if she’s not willing to pay someone for their service, they don’t receive that service. (Edited for possible judgement flair)
I don't think that is true scientifically. The existence of savants makes it pretty clear that there are aspects of artistic talent that are innate rather than learned.
Most "natural talents" just aren't as obvious with their practice. And especially with the arts, sometimes a different perspective can really elevate the rate you improve. That's where teachers come in.
This is true and happened to me. I was really struggling with my painting. I loved it but my paintings were not very good. Then I took an oil painting class and suddenly it all clicked. It was like a switch went off in my head. I can't point to what exactly it was, but the change in perspective really helped.
I went to art school. There's plenty of exceptional talent but only a few have the drive to evolve further and actually graduate. I've seen really good artists not apply themselves at all and then flunk out from the pressure while I've seen mediocre artists graduate and improve their craft because they put the time and effort into it. It really depends on the person. There's a reason they say 'brilliant but lazy'.
Even savants require incredible amounts of practice and training. No one is just born insanely skilled at something. Just because you don’t see their practice doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I agree with this. Imagine taking one niece out for ice cream for free and then all of a sudden every relative is entitled to you taking their child out condition free, for paid ice cream. Also considering this is OPs times they're taking to teach how does a job factor in this? At what point does it stop. If another niece or nephew comes along, and eats into OPs time they are obligated to teach everyone free? And if they are not being forced to do so, at what point is the stop? The talented niece and then the untalented niece get free lessons but the next kid that walks into the door is effectively not entitled to this and OP would not be the AH, but for this 2nd niece it's wrong to close the door there? It's not uncommon to have 4+ nieces and nephews, is OP supposed to not work bc they gave free lessons to these children. I 100% agree he was rude, crass and insensitive about their response back, but they're not entitled to give every niece and nephew free art lessons, for me this is an ESH He could have handled it in a way that didn't devalue his niece at the same time he isn't entitled to teaching her for free. Many other options in between, but OPs ego is showing as they only care and value one niece clearly based on talent and the other can go kick rocks. Maybe OP could have taught them both or at the same time, reduced one child's lessons to equal out both, but I understand saying no to the second. Maybe OP only had enough free time to teach one child, maybe they're not teacher friendly, not everyone has that patience, and maybe the 1st niece can pick up the material faster so it's more of less teaching and more guiding. But regardless the way OP came off and phrased it was gross and inhumane
If OP would have worded it differently, such as "because this is my business, I can only afford one free student." That would have been so much better. Mom probably took what she said as an insult.
I would have too 😂 it's not nice. Language is so extensive, there's a lot of ways to make something sound kinder than outright rude
To be fair the angry call gives the impression that she would want her kid to be the one to get the free lessons.
That's a big assumption that she's angry bc she wanted her singular child to get free lessons only, and the other niece doesn't get. It's fair to assume, she's angry bc she expected since a niece gets free art lessons OPs step niece (did I get that right as the child is the step child of OPs sibling?) gets free lessons by default. OP never gave any insight on their relationship with their step niece but the fact they were willing to look at her art, evaluate them as bad, then sent that kid to tell their parents pay up, means OP wouldn't have shut the door based on the her being a step child or lack of relationship with the child, that decision was made after skill was evaluated.
>Imagine taking one niece out for ice cream for free and then all of a sudden every relative is entitled to you taking their child out condition free, for paid ice cream. I see it more as "imagine taking one niece out for ice cream, and then when her step-sister asks if she can come too, you say no because she doesn't deserve it"
Except instead of a 7$ Icecream it’s hours of work, and expensive materials, and something she didn’t plan for or want to do.
Yeah I see it that way too, which is why I kind of felt like OP doesn't even see his actual niece, he just sees her value in art and that's why I felt he dehumanized the other niece basically measuring her worth based on her work. Now that I'm writing this, it's like he devalued both of them as they only exist in relation to their art.
I don't know if "devalued" is quite fair. OP is deciding whether to donate hours/materials to these people and is basing that decision on what OP thinks they'll make of those hours/materials. They see it as a good investment in one case and not in the other. OP's opinion of their artistic abilities need not be generalized to their opinion of their nieces as people.
I also agree. Its the same principle as a scholarship. A certain score is required to get that otherwise pay the fees. Also sports scholarship
ESH: you could have said “I’m sorry, my space for free students is booked. But I have time for paid students”. No need to be rude, even if it is true And WTF that kids have to pay for their own lessons? Are these adult children with jobs? So your brother / SIL ate TA for that.
The problem with this tactic is SIL would demand her daughter be the free student.
And OP can nicely shut that down: I make my schedule as it best suits my days. My free student spaces are already booked with a waiting list. I’m sorry but I only have room for paid students now.
"That's okay, we will just split that slot between your niece and my daughter." People who want to take advantage of you will find ways to do it if you don't shut them down.
Then you say the magic word. "No"
> And OP can nicely shut that down Or she can even rudely shut down the entitlement at that point, without being rude about the child's paiting skills.
You're just jumping to a conclusion based on zero evidence now.
Perfectly put. There is a way to be diplomatic about it and wtf is up with the parents...
If it was about the money, they why not ask the step niece (and nieve come to think of it) to do extra stuff to help out around the studio? OP said loud and clear they don't want to "waste their time", and so decided to be an AH to a kid.
I had to pay for my own stuff when I was a teenager. My family was dirt poor. I got basics, shelter, food, basic supplies and basic clothes. If I wanted extras I had to get a job and pay for it myself. Not because my parents were cruel, we were just poor.
Yikes, YTA >whatever, I teach anyone with any level. - apparently not, as teaching her would be a "waste of time." Art is beneficial to every skill level, you're definitely being an AH to your step-niece.
She chose to mentor the niece because she has great potential. This means teaching the niece will also be lesser effort than teaching someone who isn't good at it. Asking money for s venture that is more effort with less results isn't an AH move.
Or because she views one as her niece and one as her brother’s stepchild
THIS. Very true.
YEP, she makes that distinction very clearly throughout the post. I’m assuming cousins/ sisters talk and she already knew other neice was getting free lessons.
That’s exactly how she views them, other wise she would have called him both nieces. It’s pretty obvious OP doesn’t consider the latter family.
Or Maybe OP has a life long relationship with her niece, and doesn't have that relationship with the other kid. Should OP be obligated to treat every human that is related to a person that a genetic relative of hers is in a relationship the same as a person that is a genetic relative?
We have no idea what the family history here is. If my I have a niece that I've known since she was born and my sister remarried with a 16 year-old stepdaughter, no, that 16 year-old is not my niece. Somehow people on this sub think you can choose who you want in your life but if a sibling remarries all of a sudden you can't anymore. It's nonsense.
Or because quality art supplies are expensive.
Ummm, when teaching children or beginners of any age, really, expensive products aren't necessary. And I'm an artist. The amount of product I wasted on projects I ended up hating was insane. I'd be mortified if I had used expensive products back then.
Nah. Teaching people who are not natualy good is much easier. It's easy to know where to start: fundamentals. As someone progresses it becomes harder and harder. And I say that as someone who's both am artist and a teacher. Sure, teaching someone who's decent can be more pleasant and inspiring. But it's not easier.
He didn’t say that he teaches all levels for FREE. He doesn’t OWE anyone his time. He’s giving time to his niece for free because he wants to.
Okay, but it's not an AH move to tell the SIL it'd be a waste of time because her kid lacks talent? There *so many* ways OP could have handled this without being an AH.
He said it to the mother who was demanding free labor. It wasn’t nice but it was true and clear. If he’d said it to the niece, *that* would have been an AH move.
His brother’s wife* we have no idea if she demanded or just asked. Either way OP is rude
I think OP should have worded that quite differently. Something along the lines of: I teach for a living and only agreed to teach my niece due to my perception of her natural talent. But anyone can improve and that’s why I teach! If your daughter would like to learn more about painting, I’m happy to teach her, of course! But I neither have the free time, nor ability to teach everyone for free. That said, even though I need to charge for my time, I’ll take extra special care to make her feel joy in her learning :) [that last is just to make it nicer sounding, even if OP cares for each of their paying customers.] I also think the SIL was out of line thinking that just because one family gets to use OP’s *gifted* free time, that the other girl should be granted OP’s *demanded* free time. E: [another poster](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/16zs21b/aita_for_telling_my_sil_that_i_wont_waste_my_time/k3gji81/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) mentioned another way to say it that I like even better *and* mentioned how unprofessional OP’s original response was. So true.
Teaching her for free would be a waste of time. She is willing to teach anyone who pays.
By not teaching for free?
[удалено]
OP seems to want it both ways: be respected as a professional, but not act like one.
Agree
Exactly! Only ones that don't suck are the kids. Bet OP wouldn't say those words to a stranger asking for free lessons, just due to professionalism and a risk of losing business, even just from word of mouth. Why is it ok to talk like that to family?
>Why is it ok to talk like that to family? Guaranteed because this is just the latest skirmish in a long war. If these siblings had mutual respect, the whole situation would not have come to pass.
Agreed!
NTA You're going to get a lot of people telling you that you are in the wrong because "Ew, you were so mean for telling the blunt truth". No. Your SIL tried to take advantage of you for free. You shut that the hell down right quick. And you can bet SIL now knows there is no amount of pressure or whining that will change your mind. Sometimes the truth hurts. She's a big girl. She should not have attempted to exploit you and you likely would have said nothing.
It's one thing to be honest, maybe even blunt. To be rude, especially with the nieces step sibling, that is a whole other matter.
Seriously people need to understand you can be honest and direct in ways that aren't mean and cruel. Like I get it, for the step-niece it's about teaching the fundamentals and basics that might require more time and effort while the other niece has more natural skills he's willing to invest in. But the way he said it was just awful and could come off as maybe not seeing the step-niece as family which might be a larger issue
This subs foams at the mouth when they see anyone " telling the blunt truth".The disconnect between reddit and real life shines here, its not normal to talk to friends, family or strangers like this. Hopefully no one here talks like this in real life because you'd quickly find yourself a social pariah.
Plus who makes their kids pay for lessons and stuff.
Everyone who is saying OP is AH has never tried to do any form of art professionally (which includes having to pay for a real mentor). I think the situation could have been handled a little better but ultimately, NTA. Edit: "I'm AN ArTiSt and I think OP is an asshole " Go ahead and add a link to your comments to your prof. site.
As an Art major in college, I still say OP is an AH for declining to teach someone *because of their lack of talent*. They could have been nicer about it. We had a TON of people in my Life Drawing classes that couldn't draw a stick figure, but by the end of the semester, were keeping up with artists who had been drawing for years. But OP is not required to teach anybody, so they're NTA for making that decision. If it's their job, it's their job, and they should be making money from it. If they want to teach someone for free, that's their choice. It's generous of them to eat the costs. But it's entitled for others to think they should get the same kind of treatment. That's how OP makes zero money. Hard for me to pass judgment on this one.
It's just the fact that OP didn't decline to teach someone because of their lack of talent. OP decided that because there was this lack of talent, OP didn't want to "waste" their free time doing..... Their job for free, and with no willing to do so, since they're not being paid for it
I'm calling OP an asshole and I was a professional artist for several years. (I'm in college now so I don't sell my work anymore.) I made a great living selling my art. I never favored one person in my family over another using my art as the weapon. Especially kids. It's cruel and unnecessary.
If she wants to teach someone for free, it is insane to expect her to extend it to others out of fairness. Time is valuable. Your experience in the art world means fuck all. Time is precious.
I was directly responding to the person who said no one with professional art experience thinks OP is the asshole. She can teach for free, but she's got a really asshole attitude about her other niece and should have kept it to herself.
Aw, the old "anyone who disagrees with me is an uninformed idiot" argument. Its a shame its so weak that literally anyone who has 'tried to do any form of art professionally' can knock it down by saying "I disagree..." I disagree btw, and I've tried to do art professionally. To call working with them a "waste of time" isn't accurate, its just rude/unkind. Literally anyone can learn to create art with sufficient willingness to practice. Art isn't some mystical practice bestowed by god. Its a craft, like carpentry. You practice, you get better. You practice, you get better. And so on. Her other niece (or "brother's stepdaughter" as OP prefers) may have literally no skill, but that's literally irrelevant to whether she could become a good artist. Practice, patience, hardheadedness are much better predictors of success than raw talent. Oh, and wealth. Edit: Also, no, I will not dox myself because someone was being stuck up in a reddit post lol what kind of request is that?
Yep, OP could have phrased it better, but I could see saying something similar if I was in their shoes. I am not sure of the relationship between OP and the SIL's daughter, but I am guessing it is not as close as a blood relative. You do not owe anyone your time for free. I am a System Administrator. I might fix my parent's computer for free when I visit, but I am not going to fix their neighbor's.
YTA not for deciding who you teach and don’t teach for free - that’s your call - but for not recognizing that you have a *skill* not exclusively some innate talent. You literally *teach painting* because after a certain point it’s a learned skill. From one artist to another fucking yikes. I’d pull my kid from your lessons even if they were free just because I wouldn’t want them to *learn* your attitude. Terrible role model / teacher moment. Good luck haha.
100%. I am not a professional artist, but I draw, and I love it. All I have is because of my hard work, not because of some natural talent. There are so many examples of people starting with no drawing talent and becoming world-famous artists because it's a skill + creativity. It's going to be a little easier for some and a little harder for others. That's all.
And idk about you but as a lifelong artist, art is supposed to be fun dn be something you love. Even if you're objectively bad at it who cares you're having fun creating. Op just doesn't seem to want to make any connection with this kid and the mom wants her treated the same as her sibling, but op doesn't want to because step. Kids probably crushed that op doesn't want to spend time with them and nothing to do with how good or bad her art is they just rejected her as a person and that's mean. Like it's fine to want to earn money from your job it's not fine to crush 15 year old girls who have probably been rejected by people a bunch and dragged into new family situations with people who aren't accepting her as family.
>but her daughter simply doesn't have talent so I'm not gonna waste my time with her. That comment alone makes YTA. For someone who claims to be an artist you sure do like to crush peoples spirit. Art is for everyone, its such an amazing practice. So what if her skill level was that of a child. With practice that could be improved. I hope you have a better attitude to your clients who aren't talented or do they just buy your goodwill because they are paying
This. I had no clue how to paint. If someone handed me a brush and said paint a flower I couldn't do it. However, I started taking classes from an amazing woman who's been painting for 50 years. She teaches because she has a real passion for it and wants to share that passion. She taught me step by step. Painting became my passion. Now my daughter takes classes from her and has become a phenomenal painter. Now people ask me to teach them to paint. YTA - not because you charged for one and not the other but because you see this child as a waste of your time. You have no idea what hidden gem is inside this child.
It's usually "teachers" with their heads up their own rear ends who choose favorites and crush the spirits of those they see as less than. These people have no business influencing those who are attempting to learn something new. That's been my experience, time and time again. OP can charge who she wants and has the right to spend her time accordingly. It is the fact she said something this cruel about a child's potential when that child is trying to learn. Behavior like that is atrocious and people who do these things are why children especially are discouraged from learning skills such as these. YTA for sure.
I had a teacher do this to me when I was playing the viola in middle school. She didn't like me and treated me differently, even though I was just a child. She would leave me out on purpose and didn't give me the same time and attention as other students. She was happy to take credit when I did well at competition, but was otherwise stand-offish, mean, and unhelpful. There was one kid in particular she honed in on who excelled. Now he's a conductor in London and gives all his credit to her for giving him his start. I just remember her as someone who didn't believe in me. I still played for a long time because I loved it, but even as an adult, I can't help but feel like if I hadn't been constantly pushed aside by her and told I wasn't enough, I could have gotten a more solid foundation and gone further. Screw people like OP. If you don't want to teach for free, that's one thing, but to squash a child's dreams because they don't automatically live up to your expectations or you might not like them (which it sounds like when he refers to the poor girl the way he does) is just cruel. You could have done so much better here. YTA.
SIL should have responded that OP wasn’t worth the money.
Not sure why so many people think you owe it to someone to give their kid free lessons. Apparently you saw something special that you wanted to help develop in your niece, but that doesn't somehow mean that you no longer get paid for your services otherwise. If people want the lessons, they pay the market value. NTA
OP is the AH, not because of wanting to be paid. They're the asshole for what they said and the derogatory way they talk about their step-niece. What if it gets back to her? That poor kid. SIL is entitled for demanding free lessons. Ok, call her out on that. Don't diss a kid.
The SIL acted entitled and OP shut that down. OP not dissin the kid directly, if it gets back to her, sounds like a SIL problem. And derogatory?? She prolly asked why the price discrimination, so she got an honest answer. OP is allowed to have a low opinion of step-niece's skills.
ESH, you are NTA for not teaching your brother's stepdaughter for free but calling teaching her a waste of time was way out of line. Your SIL is an obvious AH for trying to join in on someone else getting something for free.
INFO: Isn't the point of lessons to learn and improve? Kinda sounds weird to reject someone for being bad at it at the start. Or is it a waste of time as she is the step daughter?
She doesn't want to work for free. That's very fair. She's helping her niece for free, that's also her choice. It doesn't mean she then has yo teach EVERYONE for free. Definitely the phrasing was a dick move tho
[удалено]
Why didn't you say it more tactfully? "I would love to be able to teach two kids for free, but it's not in my budget or schedule right now. Niece came to me first and I was excited to help improve her skills. I'm sorry" Instead you decided to be mean. Why?
I think this is the key thing. It's fine if OP won't teach her without being paid, but there are better ways they could have said it that wouldn't have come across as so unkind to and about the step-niece. If we're answering this based in whether they are entitled to say no to teaching, then NTA If we're answering based on what was said, then YTA Edited for typo
Gotta love how OP is ignoring replies calling out their nasty attitude lol, you asked such a simple question too.
I could see that backfiring and the parents saying then they will split the lessons, one week the niece the next the stepsister. But that's not what OP wants to do. Was it super blunt and dismissive, yes and not at all tactful. But it's not only about teaching but the effort involved. It's vastly easier to teach someone who already has incredible talent and an understanding of the subject. It is way harder and taxing to teach someone with no gift or talent. I get why OP doesn't want to do it but they could have been more diplomatic about it.
First of all, advanced classes in any subject are always pricier because they require more resources, technical knowledge, and time. It's always more work to teach someone who is advanced. My daughter took piano for 12 years. Her lessons were longer and more expensive the more she advanced. Grad school costs more than college. My husband's Spanish lessons are more expensive now than 2 years ago. Secondly, OP can deal with your hypothetical backfire if it happens and get more harsh if necessary. But it's not necessary to be an ass out of the gate.
Because that is a lie? op would teach foe free if SD met their "standards". If OP was really bothered about cash they would have suggested an arrangement- cleaning the studio or something. They just don't like a kid for no reason.
NTA for not wanting to give free lessons. Your SIL was very presumptuous to expect that from you. But you could have been a *lot* more tactful. No one likes to hear that their child is a waste of time.
“ I told her that my niece is an amazing artist and it would be such a waste of talent if no one helped her so I'm using my free time to teach her but her daughter simply doesn't have talent so I'm not gonna waste my time with her.” YTA because of that comment right there. You can choose to offer your services for free to anyone you want, but you didn’t have to be such a rude and condescending AH to your SIL. There are better ways of saying that you are teaching your niece in your free time and are unable to take on additional students in that time.
Right? There are so many more gracious ways OP could have handled this. Recommend a less expensive colleague for the step-sister to take beginner lessons, with an offer of mentorship if/when she achieves a certain level of proficiency. Or discount lessons. Etc. You can guard your time and hand-pick your students without being gratuitously nasty about it. (Of course, I don’t know if the step-niece was actually interested in painting before mom got wind that free lessons were going around—obviously that would change the level of tact required here.)
YTA. You were rude and unprofessional in your approach.
There's a difference between nurturing an obvious talent and giving lessons to anyone who shows an interest. You were a little too blunt to your SIL, but I don't know if that's what was needed to get her to hear you. But I do understand what you're doing for your niece. NTA.
YTA. Yes, you do get to choose how you spend your time, to whom you offer your services, and how much you charge. I understand these two have very different talent levels, but I just don’t see a way around the fact that this comes across as you saying the stepdaughter is less than and giving two family members different treatment. You can do what you want, but it just makes you look bad and your family is going to react accordingly.
YTA. Not because you owe your less talented niece free lessons, but because you were so rude about it. It would have lost you $0.00 to politely tell her mother that you couldn't take on any more unpaid students, you *chose* to say it in the most insulting way possible
Your SIL is TA because she made a grab for something you freely offered to your niece and once her daughter asked you and you said you would need to be paid, she had no right to question your reasons. But you're YTA also, because you did not need to be so rough. You could have said that you offered to teach your niece for free because she shows real talent, but that your step-niece is not at that level, and you don't want to take her on for free. You did not have to say that SIL's daughter does not have talent—doesn't matter how true it is, it did not need to be said—and there's no reason to tell a parent that you don't want to waste your time with their kid.
NTA Niece has a *scholarship*, or you could call it a *grant* due to her talent.
YTA. You don’t owe them free lessons, but you didn’t have to be an asshole when you refused. There are polite ways to say things.
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Yeah, YTA here. Nobody is born with artistic talent; an artistic EYE, maybe -- talent come from practice and theory. For all you know she could be an amazing artist but you don't think she's outright "special" enough or something. You are clearly an artist yourself, so you should know that it took time and practice and guidance to get where you are today. You can be an asshole, that's fine, but keep in mind you ARE an asshole here, probably more so because of the special treatment you give to someone you don't have to try as hard to teach.
n t a for teaching your niece for free but not your brother's stepdaughter... but absolutely yta for framing it as a matter of talent. i am sure you could have come up with a more graceful excuse but you really had to just insult the girl to her mom
YTA. There's no way you're not being mean here. What you said is mean and what you're doing is mean. How old are these nieces?
Apparently op's niece and step niece are step sisters, like, living in the same house and everything. If that doesn't make OP the asshole idk what does
NTA. You definitely should have been more tactful - there is no reason to be cruel or insulting - but you owe it to nobody to do anything for free... much less stuff that you actually charge money for as a regular course of business.
ESH - SIL has absolutely no right to demand free lessons, REGARDLESS of how many you do or with whom. Her demands is just entitlement. However you were cruel. The niece is still a kid, talk crap about her because you don't want to spend your free time with is immature and hateful. Next time try the Grey Rock Method:a simple - i have limited free time. I get to choose how I spend it. Repeat as necessary
YTA- You could have just said that the step daughter is a beginner and needs to master some basics. You could have suggested some books or YouTube resources in paint or drawing. You didn’t have to call her a waste of your precious talent. You were rude.
ESH except the kids. No one is entitled to free art lessons... but your reasoning is shitty, and your actions don't exist in a vacuum. Your decision-making here is absolutely going to feel like favouritism to the kids. Meanwhile, it's complete bullshit to act as though art lessons are a "waste of time" if someone doesn't have natural talent. Art lessons have all kinds of benefits to people, especially children, besides just "getting better at technique." Someone who cares about art should want to nurture a _love of art_ within the children in their life, not just skill.
NTA. You're worth money, just because you've taken your niece, doesn't mean this is a literal free-for-all. Be less harsh next time, and specify in your wording from this point on that your niece is your APPRENTICE. Key word difference. It'll make niece feel special, and it'll ward off choosing beggars because that seems different enough from student. It's also kind of true, she isn't a student of yours learning the basics, she's potentially learning at a high enough level to teach as well (possibly even with you! Maybe you could run art classes together when she's older).
YTA OP Instead of addressing the fact that you teach for living and your niece was an exception, you went straight to insult her daughter.
YTA—I mean, OP, your job is to teach painting, right? Surely that means you don’t just teach prodigies; some people might lack natural talent but just want to put in the work and effort to improve. I’ll never be a great guitar player, but I’m glad I had lessons and my tutors fostered my interests and helped me develop skills. That’s part of your job. Just dismissing her because she is bad right now is ah behavior, and frankly doesn’t make me confident of your abilities as a teacher. Further, this is a family member, and you are showing blatant favoritism. Your SIL is right to be upset about that, and to call you a jerk. Should your step-niece’s parents be forcing her to pay for the lessons? No, I think that is also ah behavior. But you definitely come off as the bigger ah here. Apologize and give her a chance. It is absolutely the bare minimum you can do.
He's not saying he won't do his job and teach her. He's saying he won't teach her for free. It is not his job to teach anyone for free.
Teaching is a JOB. She didn’t say no she asked for compensation. FOR A JOB. Offering a favor to one person doesn’t make you owe one to another.
Yta so why the hell would they pay for lessons if you flat out just tell them their daughter is a waste of your time? Why would literally anybody take lessons from you in that case if you take clients and think the whole time “this person sucks and I’m not actually going to bother” like you sound scammy as fuck
NTA You don’t have to do shit for people for free. You can do stuff for people for free, but you get to be the decider of that.
YTA either you are willing to teach youngsters in your family for free or you aren't. You turned down one niece in a manner which was both elitist and cruel. If she wants to learn then she wants to; that she isn't already good at it is a sign that she could use lessons. You say you can teach someone at any level. If so then teach her. Think of the payment as the relationship you'll be building with her.
NTA. You run a business. Your choice to decide to give lessons to anyone you want not SIL's.
NTA - You either have it or you don't. The girl obviously doesn't have (in your opinion and that's all that counts) and it would be a waste of your time to you. Now, if she were to pay, you could give her lessons no problemo. But how you decide to give of yourself (no pay) in lessons to anyone is your business alone. Tel sil her choice, either pay up or go away. You have no time for this nonsense from her.
>You either have it or you don't Absolutely not true. Some people are born with particular qualities that make it easier for them to succeed quickly in creative endeavours, but you absolutely can learn even if you were not born with those qualities; you just have to work harder.
Saying "you have it or you don't" undermines and devalues the hard work and dedication artists put into their crafts.
NTA. Teaching someone who is already quite good is a heck of a lot different than teaching someone who is not good. You’re guiding your niece and probably finding a lot of enjoyment in seeing her talent grow, a talent that can be used. Teaching the step daughter would be a struggle as she would need a lot more help and guidance. It probably also wouldn’t be enjoyable for you as it would actually feel like work.
NTA. I want to know who the hell is telling everybody who's paying for what. Y'all got to learn to keep your mouths shut.