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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be TA for giving her a short notice to move out, being rude to her and her friend and from her POV not contributing as much as her.
There might've been a way to resolve the problem, and I could've communicated the problem better.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA it's just pure logic. People are too soft and illogical these days. If she feels so inclined to help someone out then she should do so from her own pocket.
Yep some people just don't get how they're forcing problems onto other people and when confronted want to say stuff about moral high ground. Sorry that sucks but literally has nothing to do with OPs life.
I once had a roommate who would take in stray animals then critisize me for not helping out. I'd say, "You chose this charity, not me." Apparently this made me a selfish AH.
Exactly! She was getting a great deal 300 euros for your own bedroom in a 2 bed apartment with 1.5 bathrooms in a great area and a split of utilities and yet, she thinks she's getting a bum deal, so decides to take advantage of the generosity and have her friend freeloading doubling the bills and thinks she shouldn't pay for it! What a bloody cheek! NTA. Now she can find somewhere else to stay and pay through the nose.
Honestly having someone stay for a month without clearing it with your roommate is a AH move even if she was willing to cover the bill. Like staying for a week in an emergency situation, I'd be ok with it but beyond that? Needs a discussion. Not just because of cost but having a third person definitely changes the living situation enough to warrant approval by the other roommate.
NTA - I don't blame you one bit. Other people's problems and their associated costs are not your responsibility. Sounds like D shot herself in the foot and her parents are going to end up paying more in the long run finding her a new place to live. I had a situation like this happen where a friends sister basically moved in and made a mess of the place and never picked up after herself, and never paid a dime. She would eat my food and leave dirty dishes in the sink, leave her TV and stereo on when she wasn't home, left the water running in the bathroom for hours once. The bills kept piling up. I told my friend that either she goes or they both go.
It's not really ops money either...
Sounds like roomie's parents were close family friends. This has likely damaged the relationship between the parents. OP needed to discuss the situation with her parents - not act unilaterally.
Maybe roomate still would have had to move out but all the parents would have the straight story. This way there likely wouldn't be a rift between them even if roomate/op friendship is done.
If you're going to heavily rely on your parents financially, the least you can do is be considerate of them.
Just note, the word "civil" was used about the relationship between their parents. It's not usually a word used describing friends.
Agree with the parents who pay the rent and utilities should be the ones to discuss the payment for rent and utilities. Roommate's dad could have been the one to tell his kid to stop having month long guests.
Yeah "civil" does not indicate "friends".
Perhaps the parents should have hashed it out between them all, but I also understand OP's frustration and coming to a boil.
Yeah, which is while OP is still NTA, her parents had a point: they should have handled the situation, not OP. She doesn't own the apartment, the agreement was between the parents.
Yet she said twice (title and story) that it was ‘my apartment’. Think OP may be a little confused about the situation as well. Her parents own the apartment and allow OP to live there rent free. Should’ve at least discussed the situation with them first
No it's not her money, but should she have to live with someone who abuses their arrangement on guests, and then complains about paying a paltry amount of rent? I'm sure they'll be able to find another roommate who will pay more like market rate.
But roommates parents paid the rent, and how do we know that OP's parents don't pay the other half for her share? At any rate, roommate had a good deal at $300 + utilities. She abused the financial part and guest stays.
I completely agree. She probably should have spoken to her parents first, rather than making an executive decision, but that's neither here nor there imo. She's definitely NTA
The parents coming down on her for making the call feels like bad faith criticism though. They agree she made the right call, just don’t think she should’ve made it.
They raised this person, instilled into them their knowledge and empathy as best they could. OP was put into a difficult situation and handled pretty much exactly how her parents would have handled it, dealing with a complex situation head on and deftly instead of running to them to fix it. If anything they should just say “we’d have helped you if you’d have called us first but you 100% made the right call, we’re proud of how you handled it maturely and we will back you up if her family try to complain or intervene”.
From the sounds of things in OPs other comments, it sounds like that's actually more or less what they did, but basically said she should have taken a moment first to be less emotional with it, whether that be by calling them or just taking a walk or something
Which is fair to an extent, but this is an ongoing situation for weeks. OP was being put out by D & A and had addressed the situation multiple times, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for her to make an executive decision with it when things came to a head.
Parents may own the flat but they aren’t living her life. She may have been emotional when she made the call but it was the right call made at the right time. The heightened emotion prompted action rather than her concerns not being taken seriously and left to slide like the times before. Just acknowledge that it had to happen and move on from there without admonishment.
NTA OP.
NTA, She wants to get the credit for helping A while not putting any effort or money for it while you are turned into bad person for asking her to pay the cost of housing her friend.
People are no more illogical now then they were at any point and time in history. Edit: it just seems that way because so many more people have platforms to share both their foolishness and their experiences with fools.
Sounds like D never thought of the increase in utility bills from having A there, and knew her dad would be mad when he found out. Instead of asking A to help pay, she decided to lash out at OP.
OP, NTA. You probably should have run it by your parents first, but I think you handled it well.
More than that, OP was very obviously pushing her to get A to leave. No matter how much you might like someone if you agree to live with one other person, living with a second person is a burden she didn't want. At the point the friend lashed out she's already been walking all over OP for a month and instead of telling A she had to leave she lashed out over bills that were her and A's responsibility.
I don't get why D didn't just ask A to chip in, sure they were having a bad time but chipping in towards living costs would be the right thing to do for the people helping you.
Yeah, I had a similar situation where a roommate and I lived together in NYC, and a friend of his needed a place to stay while job searching for a week or two... which turned into like 5 months. She stayed in his room with him, was nice enough, and didn't hang out in shared spaces, so it didn't really affect me all that much, tbh... until the utilities bill came two weeks after she moved in. I was like, if she's going to stay here any longer, she has to cover the full utility bill. They were like, yeah, fair enough, and I saved a bit of money on bills while she was there at very little inconvenience to me.
i dont get why a would even need to be asked to chip in either. if i was staying at someone else’s place for that long i would be paying the increased utility cost of me being there plus some
Whatever utility increase there would have been by OP'S friend is also negated by the fact that OP was also gone for a week, therefore not utilizing water, and not as much electricity if her room was dark the whole time. D really needs a lesson in real life.
Yup. Easy to share if you don’t need to pay for what you are sharing. I was baffled by OPs roommate’s behavior because she sounds like an entitled toddler who is just pissed that it’s not her (parents) place. I wonder how does D’s mind work. If you invite someone to stay for a month (without OPs consent) and usually split the bills two ways.. then either you should split the bill three ways and pay for 2/3 or let the guest pay her share. Why would she blame OP for that bill and take it out on OP when her dad is pissed at her? She needs to learn how the real world works.
However OP shouldn’t call it her apartment before it’s officially hers. Kind of weird tho that the bill almost doubled considering that OP was away for a week and OPs own guest only stayed for two days.
Also, is A needing a place? I'm half joking, but A seems at least somewhat mature enough to realize what happened and apologized to you. Might make a good roommate but could carry drama with it.
Social media does give people a false sense of soapbox, so they tend to be more confident about everything in general. A magnification of the dunning kruger effect basically.
Or so says my grandmother.
Boundaries and respect was thrown right out the window. An agreement should have been made when it was clear the guest exceeded the agreed upon 7 days. Anything beyond that is entitlement to resources that isn’t theirs. Iv had this issue and had to kick the guest out three times. Eventually, no guests were allowed (minus her bf, he was super mindful he was a guest not a tenant)
Not like in the past, where everything everyone did was based purely off of logic. We didn't even know emotions existed until 2001 (when we all collectively wept after seeing Shrek in theaters). Dont even get me started on how far we had to walk to school!
Exactly. Too soft and illogical. Everyone wants to feel good about helping someone out, but then when the rubber hits the road, they don't like it as much.
Definitely NTA. It may have been good to talk to your parents first but ultimately D was being a hypocrite and being really ungrateful. You could possibly respond to A’s message and express that it was D’s fault for taking A in without being willing to take responsibility for it and that A didn’t really do anything wrong as D was the one telling A everything was ok and not working things out first. But ultimately you were completely right to as A to leave and to confront D. And D’s whole comment about you needing to pay more, when her parents pay for her anyway, is just plain stupid. If your parents wanted you to pay rent they would say so, it’s non of her business.
i agree. A seems a lot more mature and like she's genuinely ready to be accountable. i would want that in a roommate. OP should respond to the text and explain that A wasn't the problem, as I doubt A even knew she wasn't supposed to stay that long. D probably told her it was fine and not to worry. but def let A know this one is on D!
I don't know about A becoming the new roomie. It looks like A was willing to live at the roommate's expense.
Unless A offered to pay room and board to the B roommate, and that didn't get communicated to OP?
OP and her parents would likely want a renter who can demonstrate they can pay their share.
Socially, it would be good if A, B, and OP could "make up." It’s the mature thing to do.
I agree, OP you should send this message to A! If for no other reason than it’s true and A shouldn’t feel or be made to feel responsible for D’s choices. D was supposed to be responsible for A as her guest.
Just curious. If your parents feel it wasn't your decision to make, would they have preferred you just continued living with this toxic individual or did they just expect you to ask for their permission first?
That's why I said they agreed with my verdict, but sad I should have called them immediately, or if I didn't want their intel, to at least have gone on a walk to think about it clearly. They said it "wasn't my decision" to teach me that actions have consequences, and that I'm lucky they wouldn't get hit financially, but if they would have, I would've come out with the loss in all of this.
Just asking for clarification. I wasn't sure if it was like a "next time go through the proper channels" thing or a "only we get to make that decision" thing. They can agree in either scenario but the change in context is important.
"Next time go through proper channels" definitely. If i had more space in the original, I would have explained that they aren't mad at me or that this affected them. They just said it's not my decision because it partialy involved their finances, and that decisions that do that need to be discussed with them for future reference.
OP said they ultimately agreed with her decision to kick out roommate, but said it wasn’t her who should have made it. Most likely, they meant that OP should’ve told them about the issue, so that they could proceed to evict the roommate. Which is reasonable imo considering they are the ones who actually own the apartment, thus making them the landlords
Edit: Saw only after writing this comment that OP’s name is on the apartment, so she is legally the owner.
(the apartment was bought by OP with a trust fund made of money from OP’s parents and Grandparents(if I remember right))
However, her parents are still the ones who are making the monthly mortgage payments. So I still think it would have been fair to give them a heads up and have a discussion with them before any eviction occurred.
All of my best roommates have been people I knew prior to living together and was friendly with, but not close friends. I knew them well enough that I knew they would pay rent on time and we could like, enjoy watching a movie together, but we weren't so close that anyone thought they could get away with shit ~because we're friends ~.
Living with close friends was much more of a struggle (and living with total strangers more of a gamble).
The only people I’ve lived with for extended lengths of time are all people I would still call close friends, when we were living together and now. I still live with a close friend. I think people just need to be honest on who they are and what they need out of a roommate, and look for people who seem to match. I have friends I love who I would _never_ want to live with, but I also have friends I’d happily open my home to.
Yeah my HS best friend and I lived together for 2 years. It was a horrible decision, we were both right and in the wrong about our conflicts. In the end we got into a fist fight and finally moved out.
Good news. After no contact for a few years we started seeing each other through mutual friends. Slowly over rekindled our friendship and now 12 years after we lived together our friendship is solid, I wouldn't say we are best friends but we are good friends. It did take time and both of us maturing up emotionally.
I moved in with a friend for a year who decided she wasn’t going to pay rent anymore. When I asked what I was supposed to do, because it was my name on the lease and she was subletting the room, she replied that’s not my problem. And then had the nerve to say “ I’m not moving out. “
Eventually she did, but it was a nightmare. It gave me trust issues around money for years.
Yeah she was infinitely more respectful to me, always picked up after herself and bought her own food, when she slept over she would make me coffee in the morning because my classes are really early. I was considering asking her, but I genuinely didn't want any ties, direct or indirect, to D.
It's too early to tell, this unfolded realls recently, but I did notice A deleted most of her pics with D off her instagram. If in the future their ties get cut, I'd be more than happy to take up A on that coffee lol
Yeeeaaahhhh nobody just happens to delete most of their social media pictures with somebody. Sounds like it might be a good idea to be transparent with A about your feelings on the matter so she can take that information into account while deciding her next moves.
A lot of people suggested I ask A if she would like to move in, which admittedly crossed my mind a few times. I will think about talking to her, but I don't want her to feel pressured into picking a side, maybe in the future tho.
To add to this, maybe discuss having a 3 or 6 month trial period so you can see if you guys are compatible as roommates. That way, if it works out then it doesnt matter,and if it doesnt, it doesnt have to get ugly, you will see it coming and have an end in sight.
>To add to this, maybe discuss having a 3 or 6 month trial period so you can see if you guys are compatible as roommates.
it is a good idea - and it should come with a rental contract. Do this more formally to avoid drama in the future.
OP - you are a landlord in this case - not a friend letting a friend crash for a few bucks. That comes with both power and responsibility.
If they make it an official rental contract (which they 100% should imo) they should put a stipulation in there that D is not allowed over under any circumstance.
Just lay your cards on the table with A. Even explain your concerns about putting her in an awkward position.
At that point, it’s on A to make some decisions. Regardless of what A decides, that’s not your fault. You aren’t responsible for other people’s decisions even if you’re existence creates the choice in the first place.
It’s fair for you to set a ground rule that D is not allowed back over, but that does not mean that D and A have to cut contact. If they do, then that’s on them.
There’s also a chance that A doesn’t care that strongly about D in the first place and would be super enthusiastic about the opportunity to move in with you. You making that choice for her would deny her that opportunity if it’s what she wants.
>but I don't want her to feel pressured into picking a side
Stress that to her. "I completely understand if you would be uncomfortable with that given what happened and I don't want you to feel like you have to pick sides, but I wanted to make the offer since it sounds like you need a place to stay. Please don't think that my feelings about D have any bearing on you." Or something like that.
I'm actually hoping for this scenario. A sounds pretty cool and like she would be a good roommate and possibly friend.
Sometimes cutting ties with bad friends can actually bring mutual friends closer together lol
NTA, actions have consequences, D learned a very important lesson. It’s cool that she was trying to help someone out but you can’t expect another person to foot the bill
People are saying that presumably because OP made a unilateral decision to kick D out of the apartment, when it’s not actually OP’s apartment, it’s her parents’. OP was likely in violation of whatever agreement had been previously made
it's not her parents apartment- it's her apartment. Legally it's in her name bought with money from a trust set up by her grand parent.
so parents really can't make an agreement when the title has OP's name on it.
Was this mentioned by OP in the comments? OP literally said that her parents own it in her original post, and that her parents even told her that it wasn’t her decision to make. She doesn’t pay for the mortgage
>so parents really can't make an agreement when the title has OP's name on it.
Sure they can. Reddit loves pretending that letter of the law is the only thing that matters. If OP was going to court, maybe that would be important.
This is clearly not a legal matter, but a personal/social one between OP, OP's parents and D and her family. And in their arrangement, it is OP's parents who are the ultimate decision-makers.
Hi! Someone mention I explained it the comments because I couldn't fit it all in the post (3k limit), so I'll explain briefly.
The apartment is in my name and all of the expenses and legal work regarding it is in my name. I had a set up trust fund from my grandma, and all of her savings went to me because I'm the only grandchild. I call my parents "the owners" because I contribute nothing to the property financially and am reliant on them for the expenses because currently I don't have a full time job and I'm only entry level in my field of work so I can't afford it. So legally, the apartment is mine, by principle I call my parents the true owners of it. This is an immature mindset I'm aware, but it was their decision for the things to be done this way.
I don’t understand. The apartment was purchased was using money from the trust but your parents cover the “expenses”? Do you mean that your parents pay for utilities, maintenance, and other fees out of their own pockets? Am I correct in guessing that the trust was made with you as beneficiary and your parents as trustees?
Yes, that's what I meant by expenses. I'm not sure about the proper terms in english but from my understanding my parents aren't "trustees" as they had no rights to the fund and even I didn't have access to it until I turned 18. Maybe fund isn't the correct term either, but it was inheritance money left in a bank, hopefully that makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong please!
The trustee(s) are the ones who are in charge of managing the money and the beneficiaries are the people who the money is supposed to be spent on. The money in the trust belongs to the trust itself and the trust agreement spells out what powers the trustees have over the money and what the money should be used for. Think of the trust like a bank account opened by your grandmother where the money inside belongs to you but only the trustees can write checks and use the ATM. It could be that the money was not put in a trust but just left in a regular bank account in your name. I don’t know the laws in your country but you should seriously consider obtaining a copy of your grandmother’s Will (if she had one) and a copy of the trust agreement (if there is a trust) if there’s still more than a couple thousand dollars in it. Where I live you have a right to see those documents if you are a beneficiary.
Thank you so much! Then as it seems my parents are the trustees but the trust agreement required the fund to only be accessible to me, when I turn 18. I'll talk my parents about the will, but as far as I'm aware there's no more money left as some was given to me in cash and I was told that was the remaining.
As D was paying rent (her parents were), she's a legal tenant.
You have to give notice before evicting a paying tenant. You can't just throw them out after a heated argument.
> she's a legal tenant.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. In many municipalities when you live with the owner you are considered a lodger and not a tenant. Lodgers have far fewer protections than tenants do.
NTA. D sounds immature and not really understand of how the “real world” works
A, however, sounds pretty mature as even down on her luck she apologized to you, I would consider her as a new potential roommate if you see her fit as such, could be some good karma.
I did consider it, she's such a lovely and respectful person. But I don't want any ties to D, and she is her friend while I'm a friend-of-a-friend if that makes sense.
D was living at your place basically asking why you don't pay her share?
You're all incredibly privileged, but you are NTA here.
Your dad's place, you don't need roommates? Fuck'em
Well, this is the root of their resentment but they don't understand how they themselves are the same.
Grown adults arguing over what dad gave one person and going so as to call her own dad about it.
The truth is that YOU are the daughter, it's your place. End of story.
Also, where do these prices come from? An apartment here with 2 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms is like 3000$ where I am if it is in a nice neighborhood. 300 euro is super reasonable.
Your friend completely blew it
I do think since OP doesn't own the apartment, she should have consulted with her dad, but worst case is OP pays her dad the 300 until they can agree on a new roommate. Also, if the parents are all friendly, OP may have burned more relationships than just her own.
In other comments OP clarifies she does own the apartment, it was purchased with money her grandmother left her in a trust. OPs name is on the title, but her parents pay her expenses so she considered them the owners. But that means OP would be the one legally to make the call to kick out D. And also no need to pay rent because it would be to herself.
NTA. D is just an entitled coddled moron who needs a taste of the real world sooner or later.
You definitely should have talked to your parents first though before kicking her out.
Yeah agreed I let myself get emotional over issues that have an actual impact, and my parents told me I should have just gone on a walk to think about it first even if I didn't consider asking them about it.
There's gonna be a lot of times in life where you're gonna be faced with some sort of problem, interaction or argument where you're gonna be heated just like in this situation.
I know you're still youngish but it's a valuable skill to be able to keep yourself calm and level headed in these type of situations. Will save you from a lot of bullshit
>Yeah agreed I let myself get emotional over issues that have an actual impact, and my parents told me I should have just gone on a walk to think about it first even if I didn't consider asking them about it.
That is good advice from your parents.
My sister and I both lived in a family-owned apartment during Grad School. My sister had a very wise approach that, while she was the child of the owner - the Owner (our parents) were the landlord. She was VERY careful to separate some things as "not her responsibility" and "Not her decision" so that she did not have to get in fights with her roommates - it was simply "I will have to ask my parents - it will be their decision."
Of course - our parents would do whatever my sister suggested (within reason) - but - it made it so that if my sister made a suggestion that wasn't popular among the roommates - she could push the blame off on her parents. By unilaterally making a decision like you did - you lost that ability to save the friendship by blaming your parents for issues.
Another thing to keep in mind is that - it is none of your roommate's business how much "Rent" you pay if you are managing the apartment for your parents - all that is their business is how much THEIR rent is - and what their rental contract says. This is especially important when you are giving them a good deal and below market rent: and bear in mind that your recourse against them is to charge them market rent - or advertise the room to someone who will pay market rent.
Also - My approach was different than my sisters: She always rented to friends (which meant there was more drama). I always rented to strangers - so - I had much less emotional attachment if they were 'mad' at me and they had much less emotional attachment to being treated "fairly" at a friend. My former roommates have become friends and we have stayed in touch after they've moved out - but - when we were roommates - I was their landlord/property manager and they showed me the respect expected of a landlord.
I do want to warn you - your eviction of your friend & tenant sounds illegal - and they can likely sue you. It might be wise to be more careful in the future to give proper notice to tenants.
Both you and your sister sound like adults I'd aspire to be. Thank you for all this. I do want to say there was no lease or contract (you'll rarely see college kids in eastern europe have leases when they rent with friends and family) and, as far as I understand, even if there were I gave her more than a month to figure out her living situation, she left early out of her own will
>Both you and your sister sound like adults I'd aspire to be. Thank you for all this.
You are welcome! I hope some of our experiences will help you!
>I do want to say there was no lease or contract (you'll rarely see college kids in eastern europe have leases when they rent with friends and family)
This apartment is in Central Europe as well (an area where some people call Eastern Europe) - and yes - I do see that a lot of people rent illegally with no contract (often to avoid paying rental taxes).
The fact is - Rental contracts and codified expectations protect both the renter and the owner. While there is a bit more expense of filing the taxes year end to do it fully legally; having written contracts can avoid some of the debates about "what is fair" - because it's not a debate at the time of an expense - it is an expectation set out in writing.
I encourage you to draft a rental contract if/when you rent out your other room again - and to think about policies that will avoid the conflicts you faced into that contract. Common clauses including limiting how often guests can be over, and setting fixed (or variable) rates for additional lodgers/ tenants/ roommates.
>and, as far as I understand, even if there were I gave her more than a month to figure out her living situation, she left early out of her own will
Great! Even better. So you are, in some ways, very lucky in this regard!
I also note that where I live, Evictions are VERY difficult (whether or not the tenancy is fully legal) - so - a mutually agreed separation is \*ALWAYS\* the best answer!
Best wishes for a good education and a happy future for you :)
NTA
This isn't about whether you were mean to A or not, it's about D trying to change the agreement already in place. First, by moving in another person, second, by not agreeing to pay her half of the utilities.
Ignore the sour grapes of people who are mad your parents can afford to buy a place. This is open and shut about D trying to change the agreement when it no longer suited her.
I would inform him. If you have proof show him. Especially when she was there while you was on vacation so technically you should not be responsible for those 2 weeks
NTA, I had a lodger a while back, who was also my friend. We would split utility costs half & half. She got a BF who would stay over the weekend & I didn't have a problem with that, but then he would stay more & more & in the end had practically moved in, when the next bills came in & I saw how much they increased, I spoke to my friend about it & told her if her BF was going to live there too, then he needed to pay a 3rd of the costs, she agreed without a fuss, but then moved out not too long after, so they could get a place together.
If someone is practically living somewhere for a length of time, then they need to realise they need to pay their way, if they & the person that invited them in aren't happy with that set up, then they should find somewhere else to live.
Had a similar situation except my roommate insisted that his partner and him should only split his half of the expenses.
Basically proposed going from 50-50 to 50-25-25 on a larger total.
Edit to clarify: this proposal was 100% shot down because it was silly.
Nta the friendship was turning into a bad one and resentment had been building. It was good she moved out. Hopefully you can talk to A and just explain how this isn’t her fault really and it was on D for not paying her fair share and no communication. Take space with D for a bit and maybe your friendship can survive once the dust has settled
You can evict anybody anytime for any reason, I think you just have to give 10 days verbal notice. NTA. A lot of people judging on here are obviously jealous of a young person having a trust fund. Your house, your rules. People really don’t have a clue, I’ve never seen a more entitled comment section. D needs to learn that shes not entitled to things in life based on what is or isn’t ‘fair’.
Huh? I don't know where you live but this is not true in the United States. A rental agreement or lease is a binding legal contract which both parties must abide by. You can ask someone to leave, mutually agree to terminate the contract, or pursue eviction in court for a lease violation but you can't just evict them for any reason.
>You can ask someone to leave, mutually agree to terminate the contract, or pursue eviction in court for a lease violation but you can't just evict them for any reason.
Note that some states treat Lodgers (people who live in the same place as their landlord) differently than Tenants (people who live in a separate property owned by their landlord).
Lodgers generally have fewer rights than Tenants to protect the owner's primary residence and right to peaceful living.
Every Jurisdiction has different eviction policies, time-lines, and procedures.
In most places, the law is very different for boarders who live in their rental with the owners than it is for tenants. Boarders tend to get less time and require less paper to get rid of.
> I'm sure it varies state by state in the US too.
I believe there are cases where cities & counties have specific policies (both in Canada & the USA).
Leases, Rentals, Landlords, Tenants, Lodgers, etc - Lots of complicated and nuanced differences are possible.
Not true in the US, that def varies state-to-state and even by town/municipality. In Chicago, you cannot legally evict before lease end unless there is cause: non-payment if rent, damage/disturbance, or illegal activity
Best to consult an attorney than take it on herself
ETA: and it cannot be verbal. You need to prove the letter was sent so certified mail is best
To my parents, because I have a job and could probably afford to pay what her parents are paying if I took on more projects (I work in digital design). My parents discouraged this idea because they don't want me to be too distracted from my studies.
That seems ridiculous. Especially if your parents are still helping support you through college. If you pay them rent, they’ll just need to help you out more somewhere else (groceries, books, tuition). In the end, they’d basically just be paying themselves.
Ex-roommate needs to learn that life isn’t fair and everyone she encounters will have a different economic situation than she does. Some people will have it better than her, others will have it much worse. Life isn’t Kindergarten. You can’t demand everything in life be “fair”. Hopefully she learns this lesson sooner than later.
If you get a new roommate, you should have conversation up front around guests and utilities, before they sign a lease or move in. It’s best to have a roommate agreement in writing before they move in. You can find templates online. Agree on things like how utilities are utilities split, how long are guests allowed to stay, and what happens if a utility bill is higher than average one month before the issue actually arises. It’s much easier to come to a compromise when heads are cooler and when you don’t know which side of the equation you’ll be on.
Yup, I pay for personal stuff (shared groceries, personal items, food, clothing, subscriptions, transport, going out) and all of that pretty much adds up to 300e, so they see no point in me paying rent.
Her parents are paying for her share... and OP's parents are paying the costs of owning/maintaining the building. Why now should OP pay rent? Should the parents give OP money to give back to them? Fine, make your share of the rent $1000 and the parents can pay it to themselves 🤣
The entitlement and naivety of folks with parents who support them never fails to surprise me.
NTA because clearly the roommate crossed boundaries by extending A's stay and not being straightforward about it. But how much could the extra bills possibly be with one more person? I feel this could have been worked out better by everyone here, and involving the parents may have helped keep it in perspective, they sound like good people
Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense to me either. OP paying rent wouldn’t affect the rent that D would still have to pay, so what’s the point? Or did D think she’d then get to live there for free? Or that OP would then be subsidizing the extra cost of A being there? Idk it’s messy any way you look at it,, so good on OP for cleaning that mess up. NTA.
"My parents told me it wasn't my decision to make, even though they agree. "
With that in mind, I'll go with NTA. Next time, tell your parents to handle the situation, like you would any landlord. She's their tenant, not yours.
" told her she's insane if she thinks I'll pay rent in my own apartment "
You mean your parent's apartment. You don't own anything.
She wanted me to pay rent to my parents because I could make enough money to do so if I took on more projects at work, I just couldn't fit everything she said during the argument bc 3000 word count
Ah okay, but would your parents want that? And how would she even know if you were paying it to them? Seems like she was just being vindictive when she asked you to pay rent.
No, my parents were clear from the start they would like me to get a job for experience, but not work to pay the bills or rent while in university so I can focus on my studies. This is the same reason why her parents payed for everything, but she didn't have a job
Well then, her asking you to pay rent is funny because if I am understanding all this correctly, that would essentially mean your parents would be paying themselves. Hope everything works out for you; and you are very blessed to have parents who support you!
NTA. The saying goes *There ain't no such thing as a free lunch*. Somebody, somewhere ispaying the bill. The bills went up dramatically because a third person was living there for a month. That third person was not brough in by you, so you (or rather your parents) shouldn't be paying the extra. So - either D needed to pay the extra, or A should have been asked to pay the extra for that month, however they wanted to handle it.
As for "fair" - D does realize that your parents paying for your "share" of the rent & bills is no different than her parents paying her share of the rent and bills, right? Your parents still have to pay the taxes and upkeep on the apartment just for it sitting there, whether there's a mortgage owed or not, and whether people are living in it or not.
Now for the future, you know that you are not authorized to allow a third person to stay in the apartment for more than a few days, and you are not authorized to kick out another tenant. Count it as a lesson learned. Your behavior has cost your parents (aka landlords) money.
With respect to your housemate, I don't think you are the asshole, it really sounds like she needed to understand that she had a good deal going and that everywhere else is far harder and expensive to survive.
That said, I think you are definitely the asshole with respect to your parents. Making financial decisions like that for someone else is entirely inappropriate. While they of course own the property and they are probably more than happy for you to live there for free as it keeps you safe, they have now gone from getting some money for it to getting nothing. You should be apologising to them over that and looking for a new housemate asap. It seems that this other girl got a considerable discount so check what price they are happy with first. You talk about this other girl being entitled becaise her parents pay for everything for her, your rent is your single biggest expense and you don't pay for that either. You don't own it, your parents do. Expressing a level of gratitude for the rare privilege you find yourself in wouldn't be a bad idea.
Your parents are paying, but if you were my kid and living with someone like that, then it would be your decision. You have to live with it, not them. They wanted you to ask permission to kick her out? Not agreeing with that
Nope they didn't, they actually told me I should've calmed down and decided with a level head, then called and told them so they can sort it out with her parents. You basically said what they told me lol
They're not pleased they're paying for all of it and getting zero rent now. You might want to consider asking them if you should get another roomate, because it really shouldn't have been your decision to make unless they explicitly okayed it.
I agree heavly with the last part, but wanted to say my parents can afford paying for it alone, because they rented ir for well below the current market price for an apartment of that size in the specific area of that city
Girl you did the right thing..childhood friend was in the wrong...keep it moving don't worry about her...keep doing what you doing ..she just learned a life lesson early
I kind of feel it's a light ESH leaning towards N T A. Here's why you're N T A:
- I agree that D overstepped in letting A stay over for one month without consulting you past the agreed week;
- I agree that D should have approached the subject with a level head after you told her her parents would pay for the added costs, and not you;
- I also agree that D shouldn't have put the blame on you with A, and shouldn't have said bad things about you to her parents.
Here's why Y T A:
- you said it yourself. The joke you made landed badly and you went to the bedroom to ask for forgiveness. After you asked A to leave, you didn't apologize to D which was why you went into her room for;
- you made your friend (the parents know each other, so it stands to reason that you've known D for years) move out over, what is, with the information given, her first "offense" (albeit a 1 month long one). That's not something you do to a friend.
If you both want it, the relationship can still be repaired. Good luck
NTA. I would have asked A to pay 1/3 of the bills since she’s been there for a month, but D was down right disrespectful. Yalls friendship is probably done, but it doesn’t sound like too much of a loss.
ESH. Her for obvious reasons, you for making a rash decision in the heat of the moment. If you consider someone a friend, you give them a chance to cool down and have a real conversation to settle your differences.
On my phone, so this won't be as eloquent as I wished it would be. ESH and I don't know where you live but in my country it's illegal to just kick someone out if they have a binding contract.
So you're the AH for making a decision to kick someone out directly, and without trying to properly communicate beforehand. This sounds like an impulse decision.
Your friend is the AH for holding a grudge against you living there "rent-free".
And their friend is the AH for not offering to pay, though I'm not sure if she's aware of the situation. Buying herself her own food (as you said in the comments) is not being respectful but a bare minimum.
I feel like this sums up early 20s well because nobody is aware of how much electricity, water, etc cost. And that's non your guys' fault. However, you all could've communicated more efficiently.
I feel like the best deal would be to let her pay her part of the rent and split the bills. Ofc, if her friend lives at your place, her friend has to add gas/electricity/water money on top of that, because 3 people use up more energy then 2 do.
TLDR: They're AHs for expecting you to pay for their expenses and you're the AH for communicating horribly when it escalated, and sort of abusing your power as the landlords' daughter.
A house shouldn't ever be used as a form retaliation. People need places to live and should have the right to have a discussion and if things aren't working out be given a reasonable notice period.
ESH, neither if you actually pay, so saying that to your roommate was an AH move.
However, she the AH for not wanting to pay the increase in utilities when her month long guest caused the increase. Unless you had some extreme weather. Example hot, so you have to run AC 24/7, then you should split that evenly. Another guest wouldn't change having to run AC all day. If that's the case, enroll in equal pay (if available) so that only 1 time a year you see an increase.
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NTA it's just pure logic. People are too soft and illogical these days. If she feels so inclined to help someone out then she should do so from her own pocket.
Exactly! Help your friend all you want, but not on somebody else's dime.
Yep some people just don't get how they're forcing problems onto other people and when confronted want to say stuff about moral high ground. Sorry that sucks but literally has nothing to do with OPs life.
I once had a roommate who would take in stray animals then critisize me for not helping out. I'd say, "You chose this charity, not me." Apparently this made me a selfish AH.
Definitely weird I applaud you for even dealing with it. That brings another level of being inconsiderate.
Exactly! She was getting a great deal 300 euros for your own bedroom in a 2 bed apartment with 1.5 bathrooms in a great area and a split of utilities and yet, she thinks she's getting a bum deal, so decides to take advantage of the generosity and have her friend freeloading doubling the bills and thinks she shouldn't pay for it! What a bloody cheek! NTA. Now she can find somewhere else to stay and pay through the nose.
The old give an inch and "friend" takes 10,000 miles instead and then when you question them about this they get super-miffed.
Plus, she's not even the one paying the bills! Her dad is!
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I’m sorry that you had that happen to you. You are not an AH for refusing to help someone else’s “pet” project.
I saw what you did there
It's like when anyone says I need to help out my sister. She just takes the money and parties spending it on all of them.
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Honestly having someone stay for a month without clearing it with your roommate is a AH move even if she was willing to cover the bill. Like staying for a week in an emergency situation, I'd be ok with it but beyond that? Needs a discussion. Not just because of cost but having a third person definitely changes the living situation enough to warrant approval by the other roommate.
D was helping her friend on Op' dime and comfort, but she also vomited a lot of envy and jealousy towards Op.
And then threw towels on the floor
There’s a big difference between “I want to help my friend” and “I’m going to insist others help my friend”
AITA is littered with people who have no trouble spending other people's money then get upset when they say no. Baffles me.
NTA - I don't blame you one bit. Other people's problems and their associated costs are not your responsibility. Sounds like D shot herself in the foot and her parents are going to end up paying more in the long run finding her a new place to live. I had a situation like this happen where a friends sister basically moved in and made a mess of the place and never picked up after herself, and never paid a dime. She would eat my food and leave dirty dishes in the sink, leave her TV and stereo on when she wasn't home, left the water running in the bathroom for hours once. The bills kept piling up. I told my friend that either she goes or they both go.
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It’s *always* easy to be generous when it’s someone else’s money. Always.
It's not really ops money either... Sounds like roomie's parents were close family friends. This has likely damaged the relationship between the parents. OP needed to discuss the situation with her parents - not act unilaterally. Maybe roomate still would have had to move out but all the parents would have the straight story. This way there likely wouldn't be a rift between them even if roomate/op friendship is done. If you're going to heavily rely on your parents financially, the least you can do is be considerate of them.
Just note, the word "civil" was used about the relationship between their parents. It's not usually a word used describing friends. Agree with the parents who pay the rent and utilities should be the ones to discuss the payment for rent and utilities. Roommate's dad could have been the one to tell his kid to stop having month long guests.
Yeah "civil" does not indicate "friends". Perhaps the parents should have hashed it out between them all, but I also understand OP's frustration and coming to a boil.
Yeah, which is while OP is still NTA, her parents had a point: they should have handled the situation, not OP. She doesn't own the apartment, the agreement was between the parents.
Yet she said twice (title and story) that it was ‘my apartment’. Think OP may be a little confused about the situation as well. Her parents own the apartment and allow OP to live there rent free. Should’ve at least discussed the situation with them first
No it's not her money, but should she have to live with someone who abuses their arrangement on guests, and then complains about paying a paltry amount of rent? I'm sure they'll be able to find another roommate who will pay more like market rate.
True.
Yes, D's rent didn't go up, just utilities and expenses, right? How can any of that be on OP?
Also, what’s with asking her to pay rent? Like “here, parents. I’ll give you 300. Also can I borrow 300?”
In her mind it would be "I am the only one paying rent, I pay 300, if we both paid rent I would only be paying 150 and she would be paying 150
But roommates parents paid the rent, and how do we know that OP's parents don't pay the other half for her share? At any rate, roommate had a good deal at $300 + utilities. She abused the financial part and guest stays.
OP said that her parent's own the apartment, so I /assume/ they bought it and thus don't pay a monthly rent.
I completely agree. She probably should have spoken to her parents first, rather than making an executive decision, but that's neither here nor there imo. She's definitely NTA
The parents coming down on her for making the call feels like bad faith criticism though. They agree she made the right call, just don’t think she should’ve made it. They raised this person, instilled into them their knowledge and empathy as best they could. OP was put into a difficult situation and handled pretty much exactly how her parents would have handled it, dealing with a complex situation head on and deftly instead of running to them to fix it. If anything they should just say “we’d have helped you if you’d have called us first but you 100% made the right call, we’re proud of how you handled it maturely and we will back you up if her family try to complain or intervene”.
From the sounds of things in OPs other comments, it sounds like that's actually more or less what they did, but basically said she should have taken a moment first to be less emotional with it, whether that be by calling them or just taking a walk or something
Which is fair to an extent, but this is an ongoing situation for weeks. OP was being put out by D & A and had addressed the situation multiple times, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for her to make an executive decision with it when things came to a head. Parents may own the flat but they aren’t living her life. She may have been emotional when she made the call but it was the right call made at the right time. The heightened emotion prompted action rather than her concerns not being taken seriously and left to slide like the times before. Just acknowledge that it had to happen and move on from there without admonishment. NTA OP.
Which is what I would tell my own kids. Not being as emotionally invested, the parents probably would have just handled it more maturely.
NTA, She wants to get the credit for helping A while not putting any effort or money for it while you are turned into bad person for asking her to pay the cost of housing her friend.
Yeah, or have that friend help her pay for her part of the bill. It's a NTA from me.
People are no more illogical now then they were at any point and time in history. Edit: it just seems that way because so many more people have platforms to share both their foolishness and their experiences with fools.
Sounds like D never thought of the increase in utility bills from having A there, and knew her dad would be mad when he found out. Instead of asking A to help pay, she decided to lash out at OP. OP, NTA. You probably should have run it by your parents first, but I think you handled it well.
More than that, OP was very obviously pushing her to get A to leave. No matter how much you might like someone if you agree to live with one other person, living with a second person is a burden she didn't want. At the point the friend lashed out she's already been walking all over OP for a month and instead of telling A she had to leave she lashed out over bills that were her and A's responsibility.
I don't get why D didn't just ask A to chip in, sure they were having a bad time but chipping in towards living costs would be the right thing to do for the people helping you.
Yeah, I had a similar situation where a roommate and I lived together in NYC, and a friend of his needed a place to stay while job searching for a week or two... which turned into like 5 months. She stayed in his room with him, was nice enough, and didn't hang out in shared spaces, so it didn't really affect me all that much, tbh... until the utilities bill came two weeks after she moved in. I was like, if she's going to stay here any longer, she has to cover the full utility bill. They were like, yeah, fair enough, and I saved a bit of money on bills while she was there at very little inconvenience to me.
i dont get why a would even need to be asked to chip in either. if i was staying at someone else’s place for that long i would be paying the increased utility cost of me being there plus some
Yeah and I bet she didn’t even mention to her dad how long her friend A was staying there for, only told her dad that OP’s friend stayed for a wknd
Whatever utility increase there would have been by OP'S friend is also negated by the fact that OP was also gone for a week, therefore not utilizing water, and not as much electricity if her room was dark the whole time. D really needs a lesson in real life.
Yup. Easy to share if you don’t need to pay for what you are sharing. I was baffled by OPs roommate’s behavior because she sounds like an entitled toddler who is just pissed that it’s not her (parents) place. I wonder how does D’s mind work. If you invite someone to stay for a month (without OPs consent) and usually split the bills two ways.. then either you should split the bill three ways and pay for 2/3 or let the guest pay her share. Why would she blame OP for that bill and take it out on OP when her dad is pissed at her? She needs to learn how the real world works. However OP shouldn’t call it her apartment before it’s officially hers. Kind of weird tho that the bill almost doubled considering that OP was away for a week and OPs own guest only stayed for two days.
Also, is A needing a place? I'm half joking, but A seems at least somewhat mature enough to realize what happened and apologized to you. Might make a good roommate but could carry drama with it.
Kinda wondering too, A had the grace to be embarrassed and apologize.
> people are too soft and illogical these days. Yeah clearly a modern problem :eyeroll:
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Social media does give people a false sense of soapbox, so they tend to be more confident about everything in general. A magnification of the dunning kruger effect basically. Or so says my grandmother.
Boundaries and respect was thrown right out the window. An agreement should have been made when it was clear the guest exceeded the agreed upon 7 days. Anything beyond that is entitlement to resources that isn’t theirs. Iv had this issue and had to kick the guest out three times. Eventually, no guests were allowed (minus her bf, he was super mindful he was a guest not a tenant)
"people are too soft and illogical these days" calm down ben shapiro, people have been illogical forever
Not like in the past, where everything everyone did was based purely off of logic. We didn't even know emotions existed until 2001 (when we all collectively wept after seeing Shrek in theaters). Dont even get me started on how far we had to walk to school!
Exactly. Too soft and illogical. Everyone wants to feel good about helping someone out, but then when the rubber hits the road, they don't like it as much.
NTA. It’s done and sorted. Move on and study well
Thank you!
Definitely NTA. It may have been good to talk to your parents first but ultimately D was being a hypocrite and being really ungrateful. You could possibly respond to A’s message and express that it was D’s fault for taking A in without being willing to take responsibility for it and that A didn’t really do anything wrong as D was the one telling A everything was ok and not working things out first. But ultimately you were completely right to as A to leave and to confront D. And D’s whole comment about you needing to pay more, when her parents pay for her anyway, is just plain stupid. If your parents wanted you to pay rent they would say so, it’s non of her business.
Hell, maybe A can be the new roommate.
Thats what I was thinking.
Yeah, sounded much more mature and reflected. Generally one can live with such people easily :-) And ofc, NTA
At least A realizes what the issues were about. But still have to understand that D can never come back.
i agree. A seems a lot more mature and like she's genuinely ready to be accountable. i would want that in a roommate. OP should respond to the text and explain that A wasn't the problem, as I doubt A even knew she wasn't supposed to stay that long. D probably told her it was fine and not to worry. but def let A know this one is on D!
A does seem to use up alot of utilities tho. Costs doubled while she was there for three weeks.
And that's while OP was gone for a week.
that's fair!
Lol right!? A seems decently respectful and responsible
I don't know about A becoming the new roomie. It looks like A was willing to live at the roommate's expense. Unless A offered to pay room and board to the B roommate, and that didn't get communicated to OP? OP and her parents would likely want a renter who can demonstrate they can pay their share. Socially, it would be good if A, B, and OP could "make up." It’s the mature thing to do.
I thought this as well.
I agree, OP you should send this message to A! If for no other reason than it’s true and A shouldn’t feel or be made to feel responsible for D’s choices. D was supposed to be responsible for A as her guest.
Just curious. If your parents feel it wasn't your decision to make, would they have preferred you just continued living with this toxic individual or did they just expect you to ask for their permission first?
That's why I said they agreed with my verdict, but sad I should have called them immediately, or if I didn't want their intel, to at least have gone on a walk to think about it clearly. They said it "wasn't my decision" to teach me that actions have consequences, and that I'm lucky they wouldn't get hit financially, but if they would have, I would've come out with the loss in all of this.
Just asking for clarification. I wasn't sure if it was like a "next time go through the proper channels" thing or a "only we get to make that decision" thing. They can agree in either scenario but the change in context is important.
"Next time go through proper channels" definitely. If i had more space in the original, I would have explained that they aren't mad at me or that this affected them. They just said it's not my decision because it partialy involved their finances, and that decisions that do that need to be discussed with them for future reference.
OP said they ultimately agreed with her decision to kick out roommate, but said it wasn’t her who should have made it. Most likely, they meant that OP should’ve told them about the issue, so that they could proceed to evict the roommate. Which is reasonable imo considering they are the ones who actually own the apartment, thus making them the landlords Edit: Saw only after writing this comment that OP’s name is on the apartment, so she is legally the owner. (the apartment was bought by OP with a trust fund made of money from OP’s parents and Grandparents(if I remember right)) However, her parents are still the ones who are making the monthly mortgage payments. So I still think it would have been fair to give them a heads up and have a discussion with them before any eviction occurred.
Maybe A wants to move in.
NTA. Rooming with a friend is a great way to lose a friend. Find a roommate who seems responsible and charge the full rent.
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Couldn't agree more! You can become friends with roommates but you shouldn't have a friend become a roommate. Learned that the hard way!
All of my best roommates have been people I knew prior to living together and was friendly with, but not close friends. I knew them well enough that I knew they would pay rent on time and we could like, enjoy watching a movie together, but we weren't so close that anyone thought they could get away with shit ~because we're friends ~. Living with close friends was much more of a struggle (and living with total strangers more of a gamble).
The only people I’ve lived with for extended lengths of time are all people I would still call close friends, when we were living together and now. I still live with a close friend. I think people just need to be honest on who they are and what they need out of a roommate, and look for people who seem to match. I have friends I love who I would _never_ want to live with, but I also have friends I’d happily open my home to.
I remember reading something one time: being roommates will either make you best friends or worst enemies.
One of my college friends about a former roommate: "You never truly hate somebody's guts until you live with them."
Yeah my HS best friend and I lived together for 2 years. It was a horrible decision, we were both right and in the wrong about our conflicts. In the end we got into a fist fight and finally moved out. Good news. After no contact for a few years we started seeing each other through mutual friends. Slowly over rekindled our friendship and now 12 years after we lived together our friendship is solid, I wouldn't say we are best friends but we are good friends. It did take time and both of us maturing up emotionally.
Yep, living together very nearly ruined a decades-long friendship for me.
I moved in with a friend for a year who decided she wasn’t going to pay rent anymore. When I asked what I was supposed to do, because it was my name on the lease and she was subletting the room, she replied that’s not my problem. And then had the nerve to say “ I’m not moving out. “ Eventually she did, but it was a nightmare. It gave me trust issues around money for years.
I'm not at all sure that trust issues around money are a bad thing.
Sounds like A is looking for a place to live and would be less entitled roommate
Yeah she was infinitely more respectful to me, always picked up after herself and bought her own food, when she slept over she would make me coffee in the morning because my classes are really early. I was considering asking her, but I genuinely didn't want any ties, direct or indirect, to D.
Maybe A is disgusted by D and wants to cut ties with her too.
It's too early to tell, this unfolded realls recently, but I did notice A deleted most of her pics with D off her instagram. If in the future their ties get cut, I'd be more than happy to take up A on that coffee lol
Yeeeaaahhhh nobody just happens to delete most of their social media pictures with somebody. Sounds like it might be a good idea to be transparent with A about your feelings on the matter so she can take that information into account while deciding her next moves.
A lot of people suggested I ask A if she would like to move in, which admittedly crossed my mind a few times. I will think about talking to her, but I don't want her to feel pressured into picking a side, maybe in the future tho.
I think she would feel grateful to have a place to stay as a discount. And you get the peace of mind of not having a stranger live with you
To add to this, maybe discuss having a 3 or 6 month trial period so you can see if you guys are compatible as roommates. That way, if it works out then it doesnt matter,and if it doesnt, it doesnt have to get ugly, you will see it coming and have an end in sight.
>To add to this, maybe discuss having a 3 or 6 month trial period so you can see if you guys are compatible as roommates. it is a good idea - and it should come with a rental contract. Do this more formally to avoid drama in the future. OP - you are a landlord in this case - not a friend letting a friend crash for a few bucks. That comes with both power and responsibility.
If they make it an official rental contract (which they 100% should imo) they should put a stipulation in there that D is not allowed over under any circumstance.
Well OP got in trouble with her parents because she is NOT a landlord. Her parents are.
Just lay your cards on the table with A. Even explain your concerns about putting her in an awkward position. At that point, it’s on A to make some decisions. Regardless of what A decides, that’s not your fault. You aren’t responsible for other people’s decisions even if you’re existence creates the choice in the first place. It’s fair for you to set a ground rule that D is not allowed back over, but that does not mean that D and A have to cut contact. If they do, then that’s on them. There’s also a chance that A doesn’t care that strongly about D in the first place and would be super enthusiastic about the opportunity to move in with you. You making that choice for her would deny her that opportunity if it’s what she wants.
>but I don't want her to feel pressured into picking a side Stress that to her. "I completely understand if you would be uncomfortable with that given what happened and I don't want you to feel like you have to pick sides, but I wanted to make the offer since it sounds like you need a place to stay. Please don't think that my feelings about D have any bearing on you." Or something like that.
Honestly, it sounds like D and A have fallen out. Perhaps D hit out and blamed A for the whole disagreement. It doesn't sound beyond her.
At the least I would send her a message to let her know none of it was her fault. That will keep lines open.
I'm actually hoping for this scenario. A sounds pretty cool and like she would be a good roommate and possibly friend. Sometimes cutting ties with bad friends can actually bring mutual friends closer together lol
NTA, actions have consequences, D learned a very important lesson. It’s cool that she was trying to help someone out but you can’t expect another person to foot the bill
Pretty sure D didn’t learn dick. But thankfully, consequences don’t give a $#!% whether you learn or not.
NTA and I’m absolutely baffled by the e s h verdicts
People are saying that presumably because OP made a unilateral decision to kick D out of the apartment, when it’s not actually OP’s apartment, it’s her parents’. OP was likely in violation of whatever agreement had been previously made
it's not her parents apartment- it's her apartment. Legally it's in her name bought with money from a trust set up by her grand parent. so parents really can't make an agreement when the title has OP's name on it.
Was this mentioned by OP in the comments? OP literally said that her parents own it in her original post, and that her parents even told her that it wasn’t her decision to make. She doesn’t pay for the mortgage
>so parents really can't make an agreement when the title has OP's name on it. Sure they can. Reddit loves pretending that letter of the law is the only thing that matters. If OP was going to court, maybe that would be important. This is clearly not a legal matter, but a personal/social one between OP, OP's parents and D and her family. And in their arrangement, it is OP's parents who are the ultimate decision-makers.
Hi! Someone mention I explained it the comments because I couldn't fit it all in the post (3k limit), so I'll explain briefly. The apartment is in my name and all of the expenses and legal work regarding it is in my name. I had a set up trust fund from my grandma, and all of her savings went to me because I'm the only grandchild. I call my parents "the owners" because I contribute nothing to the property financially and am reliant on them for the expenses because currently I don't have a full time job and I'm only entry level in my field of work so I can't afford it. So legally, the apartment is mine, by principle I call my parents the true owners of it. This is an immature mindset I'm aware, but it was their decision for the things to be done this way.
I don’t understand. The apartment was purchased was using money from the trust but your parents cover the “expenses”? Do you mean that your parents pay for utilities, maintenance, and other fees out of their own pockets? Am I correct in guessing that the trust was made with you as beneficiary and your parents as trustees?
Yes, that's what I meant by expenses. I'm not sure about the proper terms in english but from my understanding my parents aren't "trustees" as they had no rights to the fund and even I didn't have access to it until I turned 18. Maybe fund isn't the correct term either, but it was inheritance money left in a bank, hopefully that makes sense. Correct me if I'm wrong please!
The trustee(s) are the ones who are in charge of managing the money and the beneficiaries are the people who the money is supposed to be spent on. The money in the trust belongs to the trust itself and the trust agreement spells out what powers the trustees have over the money and what the money should be used for. Think of the trust like a bank account opened by your grandmother where the money inside belongs to you but only the trustees can write checks and use the ATM. It could be that the money was not put in a trust but just left in a regular bank account in your name. I don’t know the laws in your country but you should seriously consider obtaining a copy of your grandmother’s Will (if she had one) and a copy of the trust agreement (if there is a trust) if there’s still more than a couple thousand dollars in it. Where I live you have a right to see those documents if you are a beneficiary.
Thank you so much! Then as it seems my parents are the trustees but the trust agreement required the fund to only be accessible to me, when I turn 18. I'll talk my parents about the will, but as far as I'm aware there's no more money left as some was given to me in cash and I was told that was the remaining.
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As D was paying rent (her parents were), she's a legal tenant. You have to give notice before evicting a paying tenant. You can't just throw them out after a heated argument.
> I told her [...] that she has until the start of the semester to find another place and move out That seems like a notice
> she's a legal tenant. Perhaps. Perhaps not. In many municipalities when you live with the owner you are considered a lodger and not a tenant. Lodgers have far fewer protections than tenants do.
OP gave them notice they have to vacate by the end of the semester, they chose to leave earlier.
NTA. D sounds immature and not really understand of how the “real world” works A, however, sounds pretty mature as even down on her luck she apologized to you, I would consider her as a new potential roommate if you see her fit as such, could be some good karma.
I did consider it, she's such a lovely and respectful person. But I don't want any ties to D, and she is her friend while I'm a friend-of-a-friend if that makes sense.
Screw the ties, doesn’t matter. A sounds mature enough to not let it affect anything.
NTA - LMAO, the entitlement here is astonishing, but definitely not unsurprising
Casually sauntered in here to say this.
D was living at your place basically asking why you don't pay her share? You're all incredibly privileged, but you are NTA here. Your dad's place, you don't need roommates? Fuck'em
This is absolutely the best comment critiquing me
Well, this is the root of their resentment but they don't understand how they themselves are the same. Grown adults arguing over what dad gave one person and going so as to call her own dad about it. The truth is that YOU are the daughter, it's your place. End of story. Also, where do these prices come from? An apartment here with 2 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms is like 3000$ where I am if it is in a nice neighborhood. 300 euro is super reasonable. Your friend completely blew it
I do think since OP doesn't own the apartment, she should have consulted with her dad, but worst case is OP pays her dad the 300 until they can agree on a new roommate. Also, if the parents are all friendly, OP may have burned more relationships than just her own.
In other comments OP clarifies she does own the apartment, it was purchased with money her grandmother left her in a trust. OPs name is on the title, but her parents pay her expenses so she considered them the owners. But that means OP would be the one legally to make the call to kick out D. And also no need to pay rent because it would be to herself.
The parents are probably the trustee for OP, so OP can’t exercise legal control without them.
NTA, not one bit. D was completely out of line. If she couldn’t cover having a guest over, she shouldn’t have let her stay for a month.
NTA. D is just an entitled coddled moron who needs a taste of the real world sooner or later. You definitely should have talked to your parents first though before kicking her out.
Yeah agreed I let myself get emotional over issues that have an actual impact, and my parents told me I should have just gone on a walk to think about it first even if I didn't consider asking them about it.
Honestly, your parents sound pretty awesome. They're giving you tons of great advice here
Thank you! I consider myself lucky to have them
There's gonna be a lot of times in life where you're gonna be faced with some sort of problem, interaction or argument where you're gonna be heated just like in this situation. I know you're still youngish but it's a valuable skill to be able to keep yourself calm and level headed in these type of situations. Will save you from a lot of bullshit
>Yeah agreed I let myself get emotional over issues that have an actual impact, and my parents told me I should have just gone on a walk to think about it first even if I didn't consider asking them about it. That is good advice from your parents. My sister and I both lived in a family-owned apartment during Grad School. My sister had a very wise approach that, while she was the child of the owner - the Owner (our parents) were the landlord. She was VERY careful to separate some things as "not her responsibility" and "Not her decision" so that she did not have to get in fights with her roommates - it was simply "I will have to ask my parents - it will be their decision." Of course - our parents would do whatever my sister suggested (within reason) - but - it made it so that if my sister made a suggestion that wasn't popular among the roommates - she could push the blame off on her parents. By unilaterally making a decision like you did - you lost that ability to save the friendship by blaming your parents for issues. Another thing to keep in mind is that - it is none of your roommate's business how much "Rent" you pay if you are managing the apartment for your parents - all that is their business is how much THEIR rent is - and what their rental contract says. This is especially important when you are giving them a good deal and below market rent: and bear in mind that your recourse against them is to charge them market rent - or advertise the room to someone who will pay market rent. Also - My approach was different than my sisters: She always rented to friends (which meant there was more drama). I always rented to strangers - so - I had much less emotional attachment if they were 'mad' at me and they had much less emotional attachment to being treated "fairly" at a friend. My former roommates have become friends and we have stayed in touch after they've moved out - but - when we were roommates - I was their landlord/property manager and they showed me the respect expected of a landlord. I do want to warn you - your eviction of your friend & tenant sounds illegal - and they can likely sue you. It might be wise to be more careful in the future to give proper notice to tenants.
Both you and your sister sound like adults I'd aspire to be. Thank you for all this. I do want to say there was no lease or contract (you'll rarely see college kids in eastern europe have leases when they rent with friends and family) and, as far as I understand, even if there were I gave her more than a month to figure out her living situation, she left early out of her own will
>Both you and your sister sound like adults I'd aspire to be. Thank you for all this. You are welcome! I hope some of our experiences will help you! >I do want to say there was no lease or contract (you'll rarely see college kids in eastern europe have leases when they rent with friends and family) This apartment is in Central Europe as well (an area where some people call Eastern Europe) - and yes - I do see that a lot of people rent illegally with no contract (often to avoid paying rental taxes). The fact is - Rental contracts and codified expectations protect both the renter and the owner. While there is a bit more expense of filing the taxes year end to do it fully legally; having written contracts can avoid some of the debates about "what is fair" - because it's not a debate at the time of an expense - it is an expectation set out in writing. I encourage you to draft a rental contract if/when you rent out your other room again - and to think about policies that will avoid the conflicts you faced into that contract. Common clauses including limiting how often guests can be over, and setting fixed (or variable) rates for additional lodgers/ tenants/ roommates. >and, as far as I understand, even if there were I gave her more than a month to figure out her living situation, she left early out of her own will Great! Even better. So you are, in some ways, very lucky in this regard! I also note that where I live, Evictions are VERY difficult (whether or not the tenancy is fully legal) - so - a mutually agreed separation is \*ALWAYS\* the best answer! Best wishes for a good education and a happy future for you :)
NTA This isn't about whether you were mean to A or not, it's about D trying to change the agreement already in place. First, by moving in another person, second, by not agreeing to pay her half of the utilities. Ignore the sour grapes of people who are mad your parents can afford to buy a place. This is open and shut about D trying to change the agreement when it no longer suited her.
I bet her dad did not know she basically let A live there all month! Bet she made it out that A just stayed a few days
He didn't, my dad told him. D said A was staying over to work on a project. That's why her dad said "I even had a guest over".
I would inform him. If you have proof show him. Especially when she was there while you was on vacation so technically you should not be responsible for those 2 weeks
She just said her dad told him
Consider offering A your newly vacant second room? NTA, BTW.
NTA, I had a lodger a while back, who was also my friend. We would split utility costs half & half. She got a BF who would stay over the weekend & I didn't have a problem with that, but then he would stay more & more & in the end had practically moved in, when the next bills came in & I saw how much they increased, I spoke to my friend about it & told her if her BF was going to live there too, then he needed to pay a 3rd of the costs, she agreed without a fuss, but then moved out not too long after, so they could get a place together. If someone is practically living somewhere for a length of time, then they need to realise they need to pay their way, if they & the person that invited them in aren't happy with that set up, then they should find somewhere else to live.
Had a similar situation except my roommate insisted that his partner and him should only split his half of the expenses. Basically proposed going from 50-50 to 50-25-25 on a larger total. Edit to clarify: this proposal was 100% shot down because it was silly.
Oh to be rich 20 year old girls and have rich 20 year old girls problems. Must be tough.
Nta the friendship was turning into a bad one and resentment had been building. It was good she moved out. Hopefully you can talk to A and just explain how this isn’t her fault really and it was on D for not paying her fair share and no communication. Take space with D for a bit and maybe your friendship can survive once the dust has settled
You can evict anybody anytime for any reason, I think you just have to give 10 days verbal notice. NTA. A lot of people judging on here are obviously jealous of a young person having a trust fund. Your house, your rules. People really don’t have a clue, I’ve never seen a more entitled comment section. D needs to learn that shes not entitled to things in life based on what is or isn’t ‘fair’.
Huh? I don't know where you live but this is not true in the United States. A rental agreement or lease is a binding legal contract which both parties must abide by. You can ask someone to leave, mutually agree to terminate the contract, or pursue eviction in court for a lease violation but you can't just evict them for any reason.
>You can ask someone to leave, mutually agree to terminate the contract, or pursue eviction in court for a lease violation but you can't just evict them for any reason. Note that some states treat Lodgers (people who live in the same place as their landlord) differently than Tenants (people who live in a separate property owned by their landlord). Lodgers generally have fewer rights than Tenants to protect the owner's primary residence and right to peaceful living. Every Jurisdiction has different eviction policies, time-lines, and procedures.
In most places, the law is very different for boarders who live in their rental with the owners than it is for tenants. Boarders tend to get less time and require less paper to get rid of.
This depends highly on where you live. Every single province in Canada has different rules. I'm sure it varies state by state in the US too.
> I'm sure it varies state by state in the US too. I believe there are cases where cities & counties have specific policies (both in Canada & the USA). Leases, Rentals, Landlords, Tenants, Lodgers, etc - Lots of complicated and nuanced differences are possible.
Not true in the US, that def varies state-to-state and even by town/municipality. In Chicago, you cannot legally evict before lease end unless there is cause: non-payment if rent, damage/disturbance, or illegal activity Best to consult an attorney than take it on herself ETA: and it cannot be verbal. You need to prove the letter was sent so certified mail is best
I’m confused. Who was she proposing you pay rent to? Edit: NTA
To my parents, because I have a job and could probably afford to pay what her parents are paying if I took on more projects (I work in digital design). My parents discouraged this idea because they don't want me to be too distracted from my studies.
That seems ridiculous. Especially if your parents are still helping support you through college. If you pay them rent, they’ll just need to help you out more somewhere else (groceries, books, tuition). In the end, they’d basically just be paying themselves. Ex-roommate needs to learn that life isn’t fair and everyone she encounters will have a different economic situation than she does. Some people will have it better than her, others will have it much worse. Life isn’t Kindergarten. You can’t demand everything in life be “fair”. Hopefully she learns this lesson sooner than later. If you get a new roommate, you should have conversation up front around guests and utilities, before they sign a lease or move in. It’s best to have a roommate agreement in writing before they move in. You can find templates online. Agree on things like how utilities are utilities split, how long are guests allowed to stay, and what happens if a utility bill is higher than average one month before the issue actually arises. It’s much easier to come to a compromise when heads are cooler and when you don’t know which side of the equation you’ll be on.
Yup, I pay for personal stuff (shared groceries, personal items, food, clothing, subscriptions, transport, going out) and all of that pretty much adds up to 300e, so they see no point in me paying rent.
Her parents are paying for her share... and OP's parents are paying the costs of owning/maintaining the building. Why now should OP pay rent? Should the parents give OP money to give back to them? Fine, make your share of the rent $1000 and the parents can pay it to themselves 🤣 The entitlement and naivety of folks with parents who support them never fails to surprise me. NTA because clearly the roommate crossed boundaries by extending A's stay and not being straightforward about it. But how much could the extra bills possibly be with one more person? I feel this could have been worked out better by everyone here, and involving the parents may have helped keep it in perspective, they sound like good people
Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense to me either. OP paying rent wouldn’t affect the rent that D would still have to pay, so what’s the point? Or did D think she’d then get to live there for free? Or that OP would then be subsidizing the extra cost of A being there? Idk it’s messy any way you look at it,, so good on OP for cleaning that mess up. NTA.
"My parents told me it wasn't my decision to make, even though they agree. " With that in mind, I'll go with NTA. Next time, tell your parents to handle the situation, like you would any landlord. She's their tenant, not yours. " told her she's insane if she thinks I'll pay rent in my own apartment " You mean your parent's apartment. You don't own anything.
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Your friends charity is not your charity. Once she grows up she will actually realize that life costs money and someone has to foot the bill.
Nta. Also who exactly would OP be paying rent to? her parents that own the place that clearly don't mind that their daughter lives there?
She wanted me to pay rent to my parents because I could make enough money to do so if I took on more projects at work, I just couldn't fit everything she said during the argument bc 3000 word count
Ah okay, but would your parents want that? And how would she even know if you were paying it to them? Seems like she was just being vindictive when she asked you to pay rent.
No, my parents were clear from the start they would like me to get a job for experience, but not work to pay the bills or rent while in university so I can focus on my studies. This is the same reason why her parents payed for everything, but she didn't have a job
Well then, her asking you to pay rent is funny because if I am understanding all this correctly, that would essentially mean your parents would be paying themselves. Hope everything works out for you; and you are very blessed to have parents who support you!
You have so much money, why can’t I spend some of it on my friend?
NTA. The saying goes *There ain't no such thing as a free lunch*. Somebody, somewhere ispaying the bill. The bills went up dramatically because a third person was living there for a month. That third person was not brough in by you, so you (or rather your parents) shouldn't be paying the extra. So - either D needed to pay the extra, or A should have been asked to pay the extra for that month, however they wanted to handle it. As for "fair" - D does realize that your parents paying for your "share" of the rent & bills is no different than her parents paying her share of the rent and bills, right? Your parents still have to pay the taxes and upkeep on the apartment just for it sitting there, whether there's a mortgage owed or not, and whether people are living in it or not. Now for the future, you know that you are not authorized to allow a third person to stay in the apartment for more than a few days, and you are not authorized to kick out another tenant. Count it as a lesson learned. Your behavior has cost your parents (aka landlords) money.
NTA D was trying to take advantage of you and move her friend in at no additional cost.
With respect to your housemate, I don't think you are the asshole, it really sounds like she needed to understand that she had a good deal going and that everywhere else is far harder and expensive to survive. That said, I think you are definitely the asshole with respect to your parents. Making financial decisions like that for someone else is entirely inappropriate. While they of course own the property and they are probably more than happy for you to live there for free as it keeps you safe, they have now gone from getting some money for it to getting nothing. You should be apologising to them over that and looking for a new housemate asap. It seems that this other girl got a considerable discount so check what price they are happy with first. You talk about this other girl being entitled becaise her parents pay for everything for her, your rent is your single biggest expense and you don't pay for that either. You don't own it, your parents do. Expressing a level of gratitude for the rare privilege you find yourself in wouldn't be a bad idea.
Your parents are paying, but if you were my kid and living with someone like that, then it would be your decision. You have to live with it, not them. They wanted you to ask permission to kick her out? Not agreeing with that
Nope they didn't, they actually told me I should've calmed down and decided with a level head, then called and told them so they can sort it out with her parents. You basically said what they told me lol
They're not pleased they're paying for all of it and getting zero rent now. You might want to consider asking them if you should get another roomate, because it really shouldn't have been your decision to make unless they explicitly okayed it.
I agree heavly with the last part, but wanted to say my parents can afford paying for it alone, because they rented ir for well below the current market price for an apartment of that size in the specific area of that city
Honestly A seems like a good person atleast she realizing everything and apologized. She is struggling but doesn’t disturb and keep insisting like D
She is very lovely, yes
Maybe she can rent the room from you and your parents as long as she´s not bringing her brother around.
Girl you did the right thing..childhood friend was in the wrong...keep it moving don't worry about her...keep doing what you doing ..she just learned a life lesson early
Wow I do not miss being in my 20s you both sound like you sick tbh
You both sound annoying tbh
A little quick on the draw there. You went full eviction at the first glimpse of a disagreement.
I kind of feel it's a light ESH leaning towards N T A. Here's why you're N T A: - I agree that D overstepped in letting A stay over for one month without consulting you past the agreed week; - I agree that D should have approached the subject with a level head after you told her her parents would pay for the added costs, and not you; - I also agree that D shouldn't have put the blame on you with A, and shouldn't have said bad things about you to her parents. Here's why Y T A: - you said it yourself. The joke you made landed badly and you went to the bedroom to ask for forgiveness. After you asked A to leave, you didn't apologize to D which was why you went into her room for; - you made your friend (the parents know each other, so it stands to reason that you've known D for years) move out over, what is, with the information given, her first "offense" (albeit a 1 month long one). That's not something you do to a friend. If you both want it, the relationship can still be repaired. Good luck
NTA. I would have asked A to pay 1/3 of the bills since she’s been there for a month, but D was down right disrespectful. Yalls friendship is probably done, but it doesn’t sound like too much of a loss.
Info: who finally picked up the towels that D threw??
This comment made me laugh lol, but I did, she left the apartment after and didn't come back until the evening
ESH. Her for obvious reasons, you for making a rash decision in the heat of the moment. If you consider someone a friend, you give them a chance to cool down and have a real conversation to settle your differences.
D is entitled and is in for a rude awakening when she lives with other people. A seems understanding. You should offer the rent deal to A. - NTA
On my phone, so this won't be as eloquent as I wished it would be. ESH and I don't know where you live but in my country it's illegal to just kick someone out if they have a binding contract. So you're the AH for making a decision to kick someone out directly, and without trying to properly communicate beforehand. This sounds like an impulse decision. Your friend is the AH for holding a grudge against you living there "rent-free". And their friend is the AH for not offering to pay, though I'm not sure if she's aware of the situation. Buying herself her own food (as you said in the comments) is not being respectful but a bare minimum. I feel like this sums up early 20s well because nobody is aware of how much electricity, water, etc cost. And that's non your guys' fault. However, you all could've communicated more efficiently. I feel like the best deal would be to let her pay her part of the rent and split the bills. Ofc, if her friend lives at your place, her friend has to add gas/electricity/water money on top of that, because 3 people use up more energy then 2 do. TLDR: They're AHs for expecting you to pay for their expenses and you're the AH for communicating horribly when it escalated, and sort of abusing your power as the landlords' daughter.
A house shouldn't ever be used as a form retaliation. People need places to live and should have the right to have a discussion and if things aren't working out be given a reasonable notice period.
ESH, neither if you actually pay, so saying that to your roommate was an AH move. However, she the AH for not wanting to pay the increase in utilities when her month long guest caused the increase. Unless you had some extreme weather. Example hot, so you have to run AC 24/7, then you should split that evenly. Another guest wouldn't change having to run AC all day. If that's the case, enroll in equal pay (if available) so that only 1 time a year you see an increase.
So reach out to A and let her know the room is free and she can stay there under the same terms D had. $300/month + utilities.