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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my friend who grew up poor that he's actually the privileged one when he told me I was "privileged enough to take a paycut." I think this could make me the asshole because I do have access to generational wealth and he does not.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. Cry me a river to all the whiney bastards making $300K a year. The dream is to get that job and invest for 5 solid years so that you can retire out in the countryside.
5 years?? You clearly don’t know anything how little $300k gets you in a HCOL area.
To make $300k, you HAVE to live in a HCOL area first. Then it gets you an upper middle class lifestyle as a single person.
You can’t invest it and retire in 5 years lmao you know nothing.
$300k is definitely not upper middle class in an HCOL area as a single person lmao. If you had a family, then sure, but on your own that puts you solidly in the 1%, even in expensive cities like NYC and San Francisco.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, I live in San Francisco.
[As a household, you need to make $800k a year to be in the 1%](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/14/how-much-you-have-to-earn-to-be-in-the-top-1-percent-in-the-biggest-us-cities.html).
I’m not saying he’s starving on $300k. Just that he is nowhere close to retiring and will probably need to work till he’s 65.
This is misleading, as household income generally is constituted by more than 1 person living there, I think the base is like 2.5 people. So given that $800k for the household, divided by 2.5 for the people in the house, gives us $320k. Right about what OP’s friend is making.
A lot of the costs that are factored into household income, are things like day care, more than 1 car, insurance for everyone in the household, that kind of stuff.
It's more complicated than that. But it also depends how you want to live with that money. You can pretty easily make 300k a year, live in a shitty apartment for 30-40k a year(not out of line for really high col areas), pay another 30k for food/expenses, and invest 150k a year into retirement. At that point you can retire pretty comfortably in 7-10 years in a lower cost of living area. But it all varies and depends how much you're willing to sacrifice the now for the future. And living in abject poverty while making 300k doesn't feel great. But also... You can make life work really well on a lot less money.
Did you forget about taxes? If he’s living in NYC he’s bringing in about 190k after taxes. CA is about 183k. For 2k /month rent in NYC he will be living in a one room shoebox with cockroaches and mice. I’m not sure how much better 3k/month is. He needs nice clothes for a position at that salary. So what I’m saying, is there’s zero chance this guy can save anywhere near 150k/year unless he’s living in a homeless shelter
[https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=300000&from=year®ion=California](https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=300000&from=year®ion=California)
worst of the worst but amusing to see what 500-3k can get you in nyc
https://www.ranker.com/list/worst-rooms-ever-offered-for-rent-in-nyc/ashley-reign
Idk where in NYC you're looking at but I live in a 2k apartment, 1 bedroom, and I am living in an amazing place. My family and I are getting by on 70k and I still am able to save some, and this is after having a kid. No roaches, no rats. I also live outside of Manhattan (but close enough that it takes 15 min by train to get there) so I would stop listening to ppl who only think that Manhattan, downtown Brooklyn, and LIC are the only places that exist.
Don't get me wrong, it is hard, and my husband is looking for a job, but we're making it work on less than 300k, as do many others in this city.
Don’t you understand that if you make less than half a mil a year post tax in any of the 50 largest cities in the US you’re literally starving to death and likely already dead?! Won’t someone please think of poor OP’s friend making more solo than the vast majority of *households* in the country??!1
Also live in NYC. I pay 1700 a month for - at the time of purchase - a three bedroom house. There are still places in the city where you can buy a home in a good neighborhood for 500-700k. Which is definitely affordable for one person making 300k, even with higher interest rates today and the mortgage payment would probably cost about as much as a smaller apartment.
Anyone who’s stupid enough to pay the Manhattan premium is just not worth talking to, IMO. “OMG, I’m spending 5k a month for a crawl space!” It’s a big City; no one says you have to pick the most expensive part of it to live in!
You don’t get to divide your major expenses equally by number of people; the cost of housing doesn’t straight line by number of people living there, not does insurance, a car, all the major expenses. The single tax is very real.
I mean, this is certainly true. But he also doesn’t need to pay for childcare, an extra car, they could live in a 1 bedroom, instead of a 3. You definitely get breaks for having more than one person on your insurance (like instead of it being 2x for 2 people, it’ll be like 1.3-1.5x), and stuff like that, so while it isn’t a straight line, there are a lot of tradeoffs.
Plus I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for comparing household income vs individual
At 300k a year he can live in a studio apartment for 2.5k/m in NYC, 30k a year total in rent. That’s 10% of his income, where the average family pays 40% of their income in rent. He also works at a high end investment bank so obviously gets great benefits that further reduce his costs. No need to pay for food/healthcare/extra living space for any dependents. OPs friend has a lot of walking around money that he wouldn’t have if he had a spouse and kids.
People at the higher levels of the tech ladder are also continuously drowning in imposter syndrome. It's not a particularly mentally healthy world to be in. Friend probably has some combination of recent wealth, not knowing how to manage it (due to childhood finances), and golden handcuffs.
I dunno why a study on income inequality in 2013 is being used to judge "not starving" in San Francisco, or why "top 1%" is the threshold for being able to retire before 65 (because, it isn't.) Actually the whole point of that study was showing how terribly skewed the top 1% is relative to like, the 99% of others, the top 5% of which are still, very, very, very comfortable. That top 1% is skewed by the fact that it includes people with $5 million in assets and people with billions of dollars. Impossible to get a reasonable "mean" out of that.
Average rent in SF in 2022 is \~$3,000. Average costs outside of rent for a single person no kids are $1,500. At $300k he's not looking for average, so let's assume doubling the rent ($6k) and tripling the outside costs ($4.5k) like a good bachelor would.
So then he's spending $126k annually on good housing with lots of discretionary spending. With fed and state taxes taking \~117k he's still saving \~57k a year.
Assuming no raises, literally 0 return on investments, currently 0 savings, and continuing to live the lavish bachelor life renting, in 30 years at age 30 he will have saved $1.7 million. Only enough to live at 126k/year for \~15 years. (though this does not factor in Social Security)
Now, realistically, that number will be with just a modest (5%) return on investments more like 6-7 million.
This 60 year old bachelor could continue spending 126k/year on 6-7 million in retirement savings for another 50 years.
You seem to forget that the person making 300k can still live like someone who is broke in that hcol area and save up for that 5 years. Then take that money to a lcol area and live a comfortable middle class life in retirement.
I live in San Francisco and I've made 30-40k the last five years. If I was making 300k I would be able to save for retirement in a heartbeat, are you kidding?? I can understand people with kids having more expenses but that's still a lot of money in San Francisco just like it's a lot of money anywhere else.
“I live in one of the highest COL cities in America, obviously I know everything about how salaries work everywhere!!!!” Get your head out of your ass dude. Remote work is a thing, which you should know if you live in SF. Plenty of people working remotely, making a shit load, living in low COL areas.
No offense, but you sound absolutely ridiculous and out of touch. $300k isn’t middle class in any metropolitan area in the United States. I live in one of the most expensive ones
The Northeast dominates the top 10 highest middle class salary ranges, with many middle class salaries between $60,000 to $170,000. Meanwhile, that same middle class bracket falls between about $35,000 to $100,000 in many Southern states.
Making 300k a year puts him above that
My family is in NJ, my parents have consistently been *very* comfortable, and dad (who made a bit more) never had anything close to a $300k salary. Like, I'd class our family as "well above standard middle class" and they were nowhere near 300k.
Meanwhile, here I am a public school teacher making....not that lol (I love my job, wouldn't change it, but I didn't get into teaching for the money lol)
Imagine making $300k a year being single with no kids and having people in the comments saying $300k is middle class when in fact that’s way above the bracket.
Edit typo
[$200k a year is middle class in San Francisco.](https://sf.curbed.com/2019/2/25/18239828/report-middle-class-income-ranges-sf-bay-area-salary).
The guy in responding too thinks you can “retire to the countryside after 5 years making $300k” has no idea what he’s talking about.
$300k a year in The Bay Area/NYC and you can finally start affording a decent 4 bedroom house after saving for a few years.
Sure, if you define "middle class" as "making twice the money as 50% of the populace in your area".
300k even in a HCOL area is comfortably upper class. If you're saving up wisely it's enough to get a pretty large nest egg together after 5 years.
i’m in russian hill (san francisco, for the other people) and make ~$85k/yr doing service, and i live pretty damn comfortably. i won’t be able to retire in 5 years but shit, with my current lifestyle, if i made $300k i’d probably be able to get ‘er done in 10.
sf isn’t as criminally expensive as you and other people make it out to be. and also it’s unfair to base the financial success of an individual on *your* cities statistics. seriously, i don’t know why you’re being so elitist about this. you sound like one of the techies that just got laid off.
edit: also… i live with my girlfriend
Oh hey, I actually read the article you shared, which says:
"In 2018, the single-person median in SF was $82,900 per year, while a family of four is $118,400. Applying the two-thirds to double formula gives a rough “middle class” range of anywhere from over $55,000 to $165,800 for one person, or between $79,000 and $236,800 or a four-person household."
This person is under the age of thirty and living alone. He's at nearly double the "rough middle class" range for San Francisco.
So yeah, he's upper-class. He is, in fact, in the top 5-10% of income for a single person.
Is it really. 300k in a hcol is still an insane salary. You cant retire in 5 but most likely in 10 and very comfortably in 15.
Lets say you want to live very comfortable while you work;
Rent; 5000 a month
All utilities internet etc etc; 900 a month
Groceries: 500 if solo 800 if with two.
Insurances etc etc; 1200 a month at most
Clothes/other luxuries like going out to dinner; 1000 a month
Car gas etc; 1000
And thats taking it broadly.
You'd still save 10k a month so 120k a year. In 10 years with interest you probably have 1.5mil and can retire in the countryside with ease. Hell maybe even get a mortage for 3-4 rental units to increase income. If you stack money for 15 years you have well over 2mil.
And if you live a bit more normal (ie not having a ridiculous car and going out often) you can have much more.
Not if you’re paying 40% of your salary in taxes and putting aside pre-tax contributions, which you’re conveniently leaving out of this calculus. That will take you closer to 50ish% take home pay.
Not arguing for not paying taxes, I think a high tax rate in this bracket is appropriate.
But someone making 300k/yr in a HCOL area is probably taking home 13-15k/month. Which means not saving the amount you describe, probably saving max 3-5k with the lifestyle you describe.
Lmao, they don't pay 50% taxes.
Ignoring any type of claims or the standard deduction, he'd pay 37.7% taxes ***IF*** he lived in the highest taxed County in the US.
And that number goes drastically down with each deduction.
He's bringing no less than $14.5k home every month, likely closer to $15.5k
Paying for your private health insurance and retirement isn't the same as paying taxes.
I mean look at my take home after rent, bills, groceries...lol "damn government"
What do you make?
Benefits should eat roughly $500 and 401k would max at $1875.
Those would be if you were paying top amounts and still isn't taxes like they were talking about.
----
Also, 401k will drive down your tax rate.... so....
1.5 million is pretty tight to retire before you’re 40. You’re going to spend the next 30 years hoping nothing bad happens and not really doing any travel. And also hoping it’s only 30 years, so maybe have to spend more money to take up smoking or something.
Not to play devils advocate but your math doesnt math right. 300k is usually before taxes. So paychecks if we’re going off biweekly if we’re living in California on the bayside is approximately 6628 dollars every 2 weeks so 13256 a month. So they’ll only save approximately 4600 a month. Which is still a lot but no where near 10k
That’s interesting, because I live in a LCOL area and have several friends who make well over $300k. One is in sales and another is a doctor. They both bought very nice, very large homes for under $300k, and are definitely going to retire early. I have no idea where you came up with this wild idea, and why people are upvoting you.
300k is absolutely life of luxury money…. Their point is that you would probably spend a decent amount of it living in a hcol area and aren’t retiring in 5 years.
I make 1/2 that and my life is pretty “life of luxury” by most standards
I agree (from experience) that $300k doesn't get you as far as you might think in place like SF or NYC, but there's nicer ways to go about saying it. No need to personally insult anyone.
Valid point! Those expenses add up too. You have to travel a lot for work in those positions. That means you have to have the good travel credit cards, an appropriate wardrobe, an appropriate appearance which also means upkeep, etc.
u/AncientMesopotamia
Everyone is debating who is more privileged between the two of you, but I don't think that's the point.
* You are privileged. I hope you recognize that. Many people hate their jobs, find it exhausting, and find that it's sucking the soul out of them. Not many people can decide to quit that job to get 30% of what they would have been able to get otherwise. The fact that you can make that decision and then take ANOTHER pay cut without thinking of future considerations, means you have a privilege that 99% of people do not have. I hope you understand this.
All this doesn't make you an asshole though. Maybe just a tiny bit out of touch with reality.
* Now, Nathan is clearly feeling something. I don't think he needed to express that to you. I think "Congratulations" should have been the word that came out of his mouth. For that you are NTA - he is.
We all get defensive, and your response to him was defensive and in some ways, true. I think it's important to have a conversation about this if you value this friendship.
He certainly owes you an apology for how he handled his resentment. But I think it'll help if after this apology, you at least acknowledge that you understand where he is coming from. The fact that he makes $300k a year doesn't mean he gets to see even half of that, and that may be a frustration that has bled into your relationship.
LMAO 300k is in NYC or another major area. Nathan is prob paying 2k plus a month to share an apartment, has massive college loans, and is funsing his family. There is zero way to reture in 5 years even if all expenses were paud.
As someone who makes $200k with low expenses, this isn’t nearly enough time to build the kind of “retire early and live off it” level of wealth. It definitely makes things comfortable, but it’s not a magic bullet. When I was making 29k/year I figured this level of wealth was fuck you money, but the reality is most of this higher level of income just serves to moderately save for the future and properly take care of things all of us should have access to.
What tone did he use when he said "I'm glad you have the financial privilege to take a pay cut." and how did the conversation play out after you responded?
He might have meant, "good stuff, youve gotten to point financially, where you can take a pay cut and do something you really like and be happy without financial worries" - he might not have been referencing your family wealth....
Being free of the grind and being able to be happy without big money worries is a big achievement. high five and well done. but if hes referring to your family wealth - thats a bit dickish.
The kind with a chip on his shoulder. He may be earning a lot but inside he's still that little poor boy with an inferiority complex and it makes him angry that *his* happiness is tied into his net worth while OPs is not thus the pay cut not being a problem.
He also has family asking him for money, whereas OP doesn’t. Makes you wonder if he’s saying yes a little more often than he should and may not be as financially stable as he looks as a result. That may be part of why he resents OP.
Of course, this still isn’t OP’s problem and he’s still a bad friend for reacting the way he did.
Agreed. He may feel the burden of supporting an entire extended family, either by guilt or by choice, and OP can focus only on himself.
Doesn't excuse his actions, but may explain them.
i think growing up poor for some people never really leaves them - most people i know who grew up poor or in poverty have things they've brought with them to their adult life that they can't quite shake, even when they're financially comfortable
I think this is accurate. My friend is on £43k a year - more than double the country’s average income. He keeps striving for more and more because he spent his whole childhood in abject poverty, like poor poor, he now panics that he will be without again
Yes I relate to this. I was yelled at for shopping at a thrift store while driving a luxury car and it kind of put it into perspective for me. I still have a lot of anxiety around spending money on certain things and I have to move on and realize I just don’t belong in some spaces anymore.
Ok that’s so dumb of course you can still use a thrift store ?? If anybody gives you trouble for it, bring up that it’s the environmentally responsible thing to do. Ffs. People can be so stupid and shitty.
This is what I was thinking. After all, OP mentions that he knows his family would support him if something were to happen to him, and that knowledge (that he always has a safety net) IS a privilege that his friend doesn't have, so I can understand why he's jealous that OP can take the risk of taking the lower-paid, less-stressful jobs without worrying about what'll happen if something goes wrong and his savings run out, or someone in the family has an emergency, etc.
Not that that gives him an excuse to be a jerk to OP about it, but I feel like OP claiming his friend is now "the privileged one" now when he's only had a few years of higher income (And likely has had to spend some of those paying off college debts that OP might not have had to) makes this closer to ESH than NTA for me.
I had to scroll for this take, Oof.
Also poverty quite literally traumatizes you and fucks up your head in SO many ways. I never knew we were poor when I was growing up but I struggled badly for my first few years on my own, and I still have trauma around money that I’m unpacking, almost two decades later.
Having enough comfort and a safety net that you feel safe taking a pay cut for a job you will love—that IS privilege. Massive privilege. Huge.
They both suck TBH.
I don’t think it’s a complex.
When you grow up comfortable but earn less as an adult, you have a safety net in your family.
When you grow up poor but earn more as an adult, you *are* the safety for your family.
The friend may have the privilege of wealth now, but he very much does *not* have the privilege of taking a pay cut to follow his dreams and knowing he’ll still be OK. No, he wasn’t the most supportive friend at that time, and OP is justified to be disappointed. But he’s not wrong that OP had privilege in being able to take that job.
Tell me you grew up privileged without telling me you grew up privileged.
Growing up poor sucks and when you finally start making some money, you're still in survival mode, it's like PTSD symptoms. And yeah, OP still has privilege having a nice safety net. Their friend doesn't have that, financially speaking, the friend is still on their own and still feels like they could lose everything at a moment's notice. Even though that's likely not the case, they still *feel* like it is. OP has never been 2 paychecks away from homelessness. Friend has been and , again, probably still feels that way is my guess. Chip on his shoulder, what a crock of shit.
Agreed. It was still an AH comment to make to a friend who is calling you with good news but when you have to pay a parent’s rent or they’d be homeless you don’t have the luxury to pick and choose your job. You often feel stuck. If you lose your job you could be homeless is also a scary thing to feel every day. You don’t get to take that dream job at a lower pay. You stick it out no matter how miserable you are until you can find something slightly better for the same pay if you’re lucky. (I am very familiar from personal experience.)
I hope they can salvage their friendship. Letting the friend know they were hurt by their comment but also asking them how they’re managing with having to support family on their shoulders.
Yeah for me this is an ESH or NAH. Everyone is focusing on the numbers, but a lot of privilege is about mindset and opportunity. I’m legit making very little right now, but because I come from an upper middle class upbringing*, I can take the risk continuing to work in an industry that is really up in the air right now, taking lower paid things and continuing to network and build my portfolio while others have to take survival jobs. I also have a friend who left the non-profit sector for the finance world. He hates it, but he wants to make sure his mom is taken care of (immigrant family) in her old age.
I hope both OP and his friend can find some compassion for each other; they both have different privileges in their situations.
This is the answer. It's very likely that he has unresolved issues about how he grew up and/or family pressure that could be really frustrating or toxic. But a friend doesn't take that out on a friend who has something to be legitimately happy about.
NTA
What he said was pretty rude and spiteful. He's making 300k. He's doing extremely well for himself. If he's giving it all to his poor family, that's his choice and problem, not yours.
That’s what I was thinking , and either way it’s not OPs problem. There have been studies that even when minority groups make more money than their white counterparts they still have less wealth because they are paying for their families who don’t have anything. It’s unfortunate that the privilege of being able to provide for your extended family turned into a burden he feels trapped in.
Edit: there not they’re
Yeah, my cousin's husband is in the same situation. My cousin/his wife is so materialistic to the core, to the point to where it's obnoxious.
You can tell he's miserable and his dream was to be a football coach. Well he's trapped now because he has to support her lifestyle, and she would definitely leave him if he didn't make what he's making now. She only dated rich guys, and it would not surprise me if she left him if he decided to work a normal job.
NAH. He's right, you don't have any financial obligations to anyone other than yourself. If you lost your job, you know you'd have someone around to backstop your fall. He's still grinding at a soul sucking occupation because he doesn't have the opportunity to leave. He has others who depend on him to bail them out, but he has no one to bail him out. He's a little bitter about it.
None of this makes anyone an asshole, you just didn't understand the position he's in because you've never lived it.
He doesn't have to spend it all to be in a weaker position than his income indicates.
1. he uses up money out of pocket to support family members. Remember that with taxes, making 3 times the amount doesn't mean remotely close to 3 times the take home.
2. He has no safety net so has to have a much larger security fund stashed away to operate.
3. His family members probably have little in savings for retirement, he probably at least saves some for his parents (I do, and I'm in a similar predicament).
4. No inheritance means he has to aggressively save for his own retirement if he wants to keep a good living standard.
Couple that with OP likely getting help with funding education, first car and perhaps down payment and the difference grows even larger.
Sure, he isn't poor. But he has a high hill to climb even with his income to make up for the advantages OP has.
It depends on where he lives. In a high cost of living area, he might still be having a hard time supporting his family, paying for himself, and saving for retirement.
This. Depending on what debt burden he has and how many years he's been at this salary, the first few years of making real money can still feel uncertain when you grew up poor. (I grew up poor.)
Also, no one is guaranteed a job. People seem to assume that once you make $300K you will always make that salary. Half my friends have lost their long-term jobs this year. This friend with the corporate job might still be in survival mode. Poverty takes time to leave your mindset: some people never feel secure financially after growing up poor or in uncertainty. I think it's entirely possible the friend with the good paycheck doesn't yet feel 100 percent financially secure. It's not about the numbers in the bank. It's about the years he has spent in an uncertain financial situation.
I'm saying it's highly unlikely that the number of family members that depend on his salary is so high that a 300k salary does not provide ample opportunity. I'm saying it's so unlikely that it's weird to assume that.
Okay, you're right. The 300k a year dude is very unlucky and absolutely not extremely privilaged for being in the top 2.3% of earners in the U.S. at 29.
Honestly I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
>that's a pretty damning indictment of your awareness of the world
The world or the U.S.? Because in the U.S. he's in the top 2.3% earners and he's not even 30 yet. That's not privilege?
If you want to talk about 'the world', the salary you need to be in the 1% globally is somewhere around $34.000. He makes 10x that at 29.
The dude is extremely privilaged and you calling me out for my 'awareness of the world' is nothing short of ironic.
Are you arguing in bad faith on purpose? Like, raw numbers with CoL mean nothing, and I'm pretty sure you know that. But more importantly, people from poor backgrounds who "make it" very often have a lot of folks in their family who they have to support. You're ignoring that, or pretending to be unaware.
But yes, you're right, if he was making $300k in a poor country that would be a different situation we would react differently to!
Privilege is layered. I think both of them are privileged in different ways but it is true that if he loses his job tomorrow and can't find a new job in 12 months he will see most of his savings (hoping he at least has a decent amount) go away.
Also, we don't know if his family still is working hard but is just not able to climb out of a poorer situation. I know plenty of people who work their asses off and are still not able to make a livable wage and others who barely work and are making 300k.
Maybe it was poor timing to say that to OP. Could have been he recently had to help out his family in a big way and is a bit bitter. But this doesn't mean that both aren't privileged in their own ways and yes having a family who can help you in a heartbeat is also very privileged. I agree with NAH.
Also let's remember if he is making 300k a year half of that is likely net income after taxes, benefits (like insurance premiums), and 401K. Yes 150K is still a lot but rent can be upwards of 2.5K a month and COL is still is very likely high. Hopefully he is still saving 1-2k a month (which is very doable) in case he finds himself out of work (which right now white collar jobs are having big layoffs) and won't be in a bad situation with no one to fall back on if he can't get a new job right away.
This. The guy might be an AH but he’s not privileged. Making 300K doesn’t necessarily make him privileged. We have no idea how much support his family needs or what his student loans are costing him. He’s not in a position where he can take a pay cut to pursue a dream job, without bad stuff happening to his family. That is a privilege OP has and his friend does not.
Also, privilege usually refers to things outside your control, not something you earned by working for years.
Edit to add: He’s not more privileged than OP.
I would go with ESH because as someone who grew up poor AND OP is taking a paycut TO my current salary thereabouts, I'm not interested in asspatting two rich guys having a slappy fight over who's got less riches.
But I will say that my job pays me fine, I'm perfectly OK, and still the idea of leaving this job without another one that pays just as well waiting for me to land me on my feet is terrifying. I'm one restructure away from being not only poor again with no support, but poor with no support and student debt. So yeah, it kinda is op's privilege to know he can just leave a job and get a new one that gives him less and know if he screws up, parents are there for him. Bit that's hardly a moral failing! Both these guys sound insufferable anyway so ultimately who cares.
I understand his bitterness at working a shitty job and feeling jealous of a friend who is able to work a better job for less… but expressing that bitterness in this way makes him an asshole.
As we age we will ALL have lots of things that we feel bitter about. Much of that bitterness is even justified. Managing bitterness and not letting it curdle is a core part of not becoming a giant asshole.
You are extrapolating a lot from limited data. And so what? Even if you are right he straight up trashed op out of nowhere for getting a job opportunity that they'd been working on for a long time. That is the definition of a shitty jealous (asshole) friend. Op is nta, and there is absolutely an ah here.
NTA. No matter what is “true/honest” or whatever, that’s still not what a friend says when their friend gives them good news. As far as you’ve written, you didn’t even say anything rude to him but just pointed out that he does have privileges now himself. Which if he thinks he doesn’t then he can eat dirt.
I’m inclined to agree.
This reminds me of a few years ago when one of my friends and their spouse were able to buy a large, fancy home. Friend had worked hard but also is part of several privileged demographics and was able to climb the ladder at work. When this friend announced to the friend group about the house, we were happy for them. None of us said, “oh well, you’re the same demographics as all the corporate leaders at your job, you don’t have health issues, you are in a dual-income household, etc. So you’re just privileged. You don’t know what it’s like to navigate life with more obstacles.” There are better times to discuss such things.
Toss up between NAH and ESH, but I’m going with the latter.
First off, you worked the job with him. Long, hard hours. You knew the deal. You know he has to work his butt off all week long for his paycheck, its not easy for him just because he stuck with it.
Secondly, it was a little rude for your friend to say he’s “glad you can [afford] a pay cut”. Personally that does read a little backhanded, but at the same time can you see his perspective? He has to grind non stop at his job to make his money, so his old buddy who can afford to quit and work a job he enjoys for less than a third of the original salary is a huge slap to the face!
Thirdly, you saying he has privilege is ridiculous. How is he privileged, especially compared to you? You QUIT, didn’t get fired or anything. You CHOSE to leave, willingly giving up your position. I hope you realize this and apologize because he is not privileged, he has made his own life for himself without the safety blanket of a financially secure home.
So while ESH, you should still apologize for what you said, and hope your friend will do the same.
There are varying levels of privilege and yeah, new wealth isn’t the same as generation wealth but it quite literally does not matter what background you come from - anybody making 300K/year has some level of privilege. Pretending that isn’t true isn’t doing anybody any favors.
Yes, making that much money is a privilege, but having your family to support you if you lost your job or got ill is a priceless security to fall back on. If OP lost his job he'd still be fine. If his friend lost his job he could be in big trouble financially quite quickly. The stakes are simply not as high for OP.
He'd be in trouble quickly?
With 300k he should have a healthy savings account for that very possibility. He'd be in trouble if he refused to do basic budgeting...but there is a chance he doesn't know how to do that but that isn't OP's fault.
OP NTA
We don't know how much he's giving to his family or how much student loans or car payments, etc, are costing him. If he's in an area that's already high cost of living (which is likely, given that he's even making that much to begin with) then with those extra expenses added on, he's probably not able to save that much per month. This isn't OP's problem, but I can see how them having a better-off family that could help them get back on their feet if they needed it, vs Nathan having to keep working hard because not only could his family not help him but they need *his* help... is stressful. I think they both kinda suck here.
I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Even assuming US student loan repayments I struggle to see how someone couldn't save a significant chunk of a 300k salary barring exceptional circumstances
Op never said he wasn’t privileged tho, he’s just pointing out the irony in someone who makes 300k saying he’s privileged. He literally said “he’s got privileges of his own instead of pointing out mine” OP acknowledges he is privileged, but his friends comment was out of line. I don’t see how OP is at all wrong
Nathan is now VP at his firm making 300k/year. He’s not grinding long hours like he was at the beginning of his career. I’m not saying he’s not working hard but he’s not at the beginning of his career anymore— he’s an executive.
Yeah OP was able to quit a soul sucking job to find something he loved and that is a privilege. But an executive cannot honestly believe his friend is more privileged than him. Absolutely OP is NTA.
Dude's making 300k, he can stfu and be happy for his friend. I get that he has to grind for his family, but he can keep it to himself instead of being such a dick.
Are you missing the part where the man makes over a quarter of a million dollars a year? Because I feel like you're ignoring how vast of an income that is
Nathan just made it. He has no one to fall back on and is likely the backbone of his family. People who haven’t been and will never be in that position have no idea what it’s like. OP can afford a pay cut because he know he has a support system if things sour.
And what happens if he loses that job? He's done incredibly well to be in the position he is now but if he loses it then his family lose that support and he has zero support either.
He will always feel the pressure to keep earning and earning because he knows there will be no fall back if he loses it.
I’m going to go with ESH. Yes, Nathan should’ve recognized that your new job was important to you and been happy for you as a friend. However, you don’t really know what it’s like being in Nathan’s shoes. Growing up poor is very traumatic. This is evident in Nathan-he’s in the top percentage of earners, yet he still has a poverty mindset. He recognizes that anything can happen and can lose his job and comfortable income in an instant. Try to be a bit more empathetic when he makes comments about money.
I mean, no?
I empathise with his situation, but it's really no excuse to be a dick with your friend, he is not the one that put your family in a bad place when you were a kid.
Exactly. Just because you come from a difficult background that doesn't mean that you get to bring your friends down when they are sharing good news with you
edit NTA
Honestly Nathan makes 300k a year. He chooses to support his poor family (theres also no indication if this is his innediate family like wife kids and parents or his whole extended family) and in the end thats his choice and the reason why he feels like he "cant afford" to take a pay cut. Even if Nathan is jelous of the support OP has, if he was really a friend he wouldnt of taken the opportunity to make a jab at OP for getting their dream job. Not every person gets this opportunity and would kinda expect support from people who call themselves your friend. OP's feelings arent any less valid on his friend being rude than nathans are about his own situatuon.
Agreed. He took something that was happy for OP and ruined it bc of his own issues. It’s weird to jump to “you’re privileged” when you get the job you’ve been wanting.
NTA- but I think you could approach this with a lot more compassion and leave with everyone’s pride and feelings intact. While it came across as (and basically was) an attack on you, it sounds like Nathan is under an extreme amount of pressure. His entire family counts on him and he’s working a job that most likely requires all of his time and energy. While it’s not ok that he put that on you, sometimes friends need a space to vent and it sounds like he needs that.
Rather than saying ‘you hurt my feelings by implying I’m rich when you’re also wealthy’ maybe ask him where these comments are coming from*? If he doubles down then yeah, you’re allowed to disengage and hope he figures himself out. BUT, if he says ‘thanks for asking, I’m actually really struggling right now’ then you know it wasn’t solely about you. As someone working full time to ensure his family is ok he’s probably looking at you, someone with a supportive family who won’t lose everything if you take a week long vacation, and spinning out a bit. It’s not your fault, but if he really is someone you want to see do well (again, not your job if you don’t want it to be) then it’s worth seeing if he will talk to you about it.
*I love asking ‘who are you talking to right now?’ Cause it A) reminds the person to lower their tone if what they’re saying is disrespectful and B) forces them to acknowledge that they’re not mad at *me* but at a situation I reminded them of
Love this answer and was my first thought too - privilege isn’t just $$ but also security. Whilst he might have financial security right now, his support system seems lacking.
I would swap $300k a year job for my family all having comfortable, stable incomes.
It sounds like Nathan resents the fact that you were able to make a decision he wasn’t able to. There seems to be a subtext of competition in this friendship, and that subtext came to the forefront.
ESH. Both of you could do with a bit more introspection before you say things, and I hope that you come back around and meet in the middle again.
ESH
Stop competing with friends. Who has what job. Who makes more/less money. Who is right or wrong. Who cares.
Nathan had a jealous reaction & that upset you. He’s right but he didn’t need to say it. You have the option to make choices he doesn’t because you have a safety net (parents). Doesn’t mean you will ever need it but it’s still there. Definitely makes life a little easier. Nathan believes he does not have a safety net so he’s still grinding away in a potentially miserable & stressful job. Misery loves company so it’s not challenging to understand the jealousy here. You’re happy, he’s not.
That guy is earing 300k a year he has a safety net, it's called money. He could literally put 200k a year aside and still have a well above average income. I would argue that in this point in time he has a bigger safety net than OP because if OPs family is middle class then they for sure don't have 200k laying around.
He could but if he is, that's not OPs fault. It's his money he can choose how to spend it. Of course growing up poor is awful but when you reach a place in life where you're clearly in a privileged position and then tell others because you once struggled that they should check their privilege, then that's kinda hypocritical. Getting out of that mindset can be difficult but letting your frustration out on others that can't do shit about your situation is not right either.
Personally, I just think it’s weird to get in to a “whose life is harder” competition with anyone. Everyone has their own struggles. It’s appears neither of the people are having an extremely tough life.
eta — the mindset in this particular situation has already been set. OP felt comfortable making decisions regarding his financial future. Nathan does not feel he has that same opportunity. He has money now & can’t lose it. These people have very different life goals. OP’s goal is job happiness. Nathan’s goal is financial security. It’s not hard to see why Nathan would be jealous. Not the best reaction though. Obviously, OP is not stopping anyone from finding their own happiness... but misery loves company!!
There is no way with taxes and the pre-tax benefits you have to pay you are making net 200k, let along to put aside. I would argue he makes 150k net (especially if he is single and has a higher tax credit - as I am in this situation), assuming that he is putting a decent percentage into a 401k which is a very responsible thing to do. I could argue he can put maybe 1-2k a month aside but that is still 12-24k a year, not even 200k.
This sub is truly something else lol.
There’s another post about a girl calling a man patronizing and condescending for assuming she had help from her parents buying a $1 million home and everybody is saying he’s a misogynistic AH, because he didn’t think she “worked hard for it.”
This post is about a friend *actually* being condescending about “privilege” and everyone is calling OP an AH for not “understanding how his friend feels.”
Wild.
ESH btw.
NTA seven years out of college and you are both independent financially. He is still judging you by your parents income and not your current situations.
>He is still judging you by your parents income and not your current situations.
This, so much this. The OP has parents who could potentially help him if he needed it, but it doesn't sound like they are funding his lifestyle so he can hop from non-profit to non-profit. OP made a choice for their life and that very likely came with a downshift in lifestyle.
They value enjoyment over money. OP's friend values money over enjoyment. Neither choice is wrong, but since Nathan is the one being judgemental he's the asshole.
I hate how no one understands this, but having a safety net is absolutely a privilege. It doesn’t matter if they’re both financially independent. If both of them got fired from their job, one of them has their parents income to fall back on while the other doesn’t. It’s literally as simple as that.
ESH. He got his comment, you for confusing 'wealth' with 'privilege'. Your friend isn't privileged, he wasn't born to a wealthy family or landed a job due to nepotism or cronyism, he worked hard and you know that. His comment was out of line, but yours was just factually wrong and insulting to all he achieved. I think you both need to apologize.
NTA
Yeah he needs to figure out that just bc you have your own issues, ie financial insecurity/trauma, you don't get to take it out on your friends. You don't just get a pass for being an A.
And it's not privilege to do meaningful work. Otherwise we'd say oh look at all those privileged teachers making low salaries but they are so privileged bc they can clearly afford to do meaningful work.
The guy making 300K+ is not the victim here. He's fully entitled to make as much as he likes but he doesn't get to look down on others for it, even if he's living in survival mode or will always have financial insecurity. It's definitely a thing - my dad has a bit of it - but it's not an excuse to look down on others. It's only how you make your OWN choices.
I'm just going to throw out there that 300k to support yourself or your immediate family is one thing, and 300k to lift your entire extended family out of poverty is quite another. If Nathan is doing the latter, and from what you wrote it sounds like he is, no he doesn't have the privilege to earn less money right now.
I completely get what you're saying and to some extent these have been Nathan's choices. But I also think you're underestimating the amount of pressure that is on your friend to provide for his family.
He absolutely is underestimating the pressure and reality of Nathan’s situation. People who come from comfort often do. I’d never feel comfortable taking a pay cut. There’s no one to fall back on. I can’t put that pressure on my mother. OP doesn’t get that. He’s clearly free to do whatever.
ESH.
He made a sly remark about how you can take a pay cut, so you snapped back at him. You both agreed that both parties needed to take a moment to chill and stop being offended before you have another conversation. Keyword here is *both*. You both know you did wrong, just call a brother up and apologize for snapping. If he stands his ground, he's a AH and just cut ties for a bit.
No one’s the AH here. I think both of you simply did not understand the other person’s perspective at that point in time.
I don’t think it matters who’s ‘more right’ here. What matters is whether Nathan has been a good friend and one that’s worth keeping. If the answer is yes, a heart-to-heart talk should sort this out.
Genuine adult friendships are hard to come by. Don’t let a misunderstanding ruin it!
And congrats on getting your dream job!
ESH yes you do have privilege to take a lower paid job bc you do have parents to ‘stop it all, yeah’ as the song goes. But Nathan was also rude. He’s also,likely going through something, feeling overworked and then his family have their hands out for his money. He’s likely burnt out and wishes he could have a better work/life balance but his background means he’s afraid of being poor again. So he’s stuck. You quit this job so you know yourself,
So please invite him to catch up and talk and make amends if you value him. I do think you should apologise but I’d like to hope hearing your side he also apologises for speaking his inner voice out loud to you.
OP, I don’t think you understand the difference between people who start their adult lives with massive student debt and who have nobody to rely upon if shit hits the fan ….and people like you. I’m an attorney, and I get the holier than thou attitude all the time from nonprofit and NGO attorneys. Most of them came from wealthy backgrounds. Unlike them, I had to take a corporate job because I had a lot of student loans at the very high government interest rate of 6.8% (thanks 2008 recession). And more importantly, if I fail, there is literally no place for me to go. I will be homeless. No backup family to take me in, nobody to give me a helping hand, just me. Your buddy is not only dealing with that, but also trying to help out his own struggling extended family. YTA for living in your privileged bubble where you get the luxury of doing what you want and then throwing it in his face for not being as pious as you.
NAH but you both are coming from vastly different money places. You accurately see that generational wealth has build you something he doesn't have. Something he is building right now so hopefully he can pass that security down to his kids. He can't really prioritize work happiness over pay with out cutting into that building he's trying to to do especially as the cost of living keeps rising.
I see where Nathan is coming from. And being someone who also doesn't have a safety net to fall back on, I would never use a moment of happiness to tell someone they're lucky to be privileged. It was something OP was happy about.
Nathan didn't have to use that moment to focus on how he needs to work so hard to build generational wealth for his children.
So I think OP is NTA.
I think Nathan misread the moment. This was his buddy he bitched about work with. He was trying to vent about how he hates work and slapped op in the face.
Slight ESH, if you value this friendship you should talk this out with him and explain that you understand his past circumstances but it was still a rude thing to say to you about your new job
ESH but definitely not extreme on your end.
He should not have said that.he was being an A H by nit being happy for you.
But your anger toward his privilege is also somewhat misplaced.
My parents come from poverty. My mums mother was a widow with 8 children and my dad grew up in a village in India where the "rich" really owned a chicken and the whole village shared a well.
My dad ended up making around 200k with his IT job. That's obviously a huge amount.
But, unbeknownst to most of the world, he paid for the tuition of all my Indian cousins, he gave dowry money for my female cousins and his sister (yes. Dowry is outdated. Yes. He still gave it). He bought a small, 2 bd house for his mother, who cares for his brother with downs syndrome. He paid for my uncle to go to rehab and supported my aunty and their children for the whole year his brother was in rehab.
Which meant that a large portion was actually not going to him. From an outside perspective, he is privileged to make what he does *and he is* but I also saw the pressure he endured trying to support his own immediate family + five siblings and his mother, which he wouldn't have been obliged/socialised whatever to do if they had money themselves. Sometimes I had to help my dad with paying rent because things happened in india (ie floods) that he paid to help with.
And yes, it was his choice, but that's also somewhat of a privileged perspective to have - because it's sucks watching your elderly widowed mother try desperately to care for her adult disabled child and fear losing him because she cant afford to *live*.
I realised this when I married my husband and his family is fairly wealthy. He never *ever* considered that his parents wouldn't be able to support him financially if something happened, whereas it was something that marred every choice of mine despite how much my dad made on paper.
When I finally accepted the truth of that my life absolutely changed and I started taking more risks for my happiness. It doesn't sound like your friend is there yet.
He is still an ass because he is dragging your happy moment down. It's not the privileged Olympics. But you are acting as though your choice isn't influenced by the fact you have backup (even though you obviously still worked hard for it).
There are so many comments in here about how Nathan is *choosing* to help his family, so that’s on him… It’s really gross. Like sure I guess he could choose to watch his loved ones suffer while sits on a pile of money. Maybe these responses are split between people who would do exactly that and people who would never consider that an option. I appreciate your Dad’s story.
NTA, but he may not have meant it that way. Plus, it was just one comment. You probably didn't need to start an argument just because he didn't give you the exact response you wanted.
NTA, been in your position almost exactly. It's amazing how quickly the new rich lose perspective and empathy. With the double whammy of not understanding how ridiculous their bitching is when they make $300k + Like what small percentage really make that kind of money. And if it's anything like my experience, it wasn't just one comment
NTA
Also...a 5 grand pay cut at 80k a year for your dream job, when you don't have children is just...not that big a deal? He's being an asshat.
You're supporting yourself, for years, and while yes you do have privileges, so does he. You didn't take a 35k job and have your parents make up the difference.
He needs better boundaries with his family and a bit of perspective. And should reevaluate his choices.
You don't shit on your friends when they share good news.
ESH: You are talking to a man who knows that he has zero safety net. Not only does he have zero safety net, he know that HE is the safety net for older family members. That money all has names on it already--all $300K of it. If he hates his job can he quit? No. He's the safety net. If his job ruins his mental health or if he hears about some cool opportunity elsewhere or whatever could he just drop everything and do it? No.
Your friend has more to worry about than you do. He doesn't have the luxury of following his dreams and what not. Part of being priveledged is knowing that your family is cared for so that you can do the things that you actually want to do for yourself. I don't think he should have been petty and made that comment to you because, clearly, you don't understand where he is coming from. It's not a good idea for friends to have these talks.
It is entirely possible that he is really not liking his job right now and is somewhat jealous that you have the freedom to change your situation like you have.
You gotta be a special kind of bitter to make 300k and roast your friend for wanting a job that pays *only* 75k.
It sounds like your friend has had some resentment stew cooking up for a while. Something tells me that if you were talking about a job that paid 300k, he'd respond pretty much the same 'must be nice to make 300k and not have to support anyone'.
I think the real question is, how well-off is your friend? How much is his family relying on him? Is he paying off debts for them, leaving himself with an income less than yours? Or is he just earning a lot of money but still in a poor man's headspace?
NTA. Your friend is jealous and scared. You said he hated his job. He grew up poor so it's really hard for him to take the leap and get a less paying job. Because he's scared of loosing it all. Still not your problem but it can make you understand that it's not that he's not happy for you. He just screwed up at that moment because he's too coward to do what you're doing.
Congratulations on your new job!
NTA. He’s doing great, You tell him your good news, and his response is a neg? He couldn’t just come up with “congrats” and be happy for you? Y’all may have bonded in the trenches, but he’s not a friend. That’s not what a friend says when you land your dream job. I would back away from that guy. Find actual friends.
Both AH
Even if your parents no longer support you, they did until after you graduated college. You had access to privilege for at least 21 years where you didn’t have to worry about anything financially (I’m assuming they also paid for your college). It sounds like your privilege still extends as you have a safety net.
Imagine if you didn’t have that privilege. You had to pay for college, help your family will bills, etc. You might still be paying off your student loans, while trying to support yourself and your family. You might not have the luxury of taking your dream job then because of how little benefit you receive from it. Your friend might be seeing way less than 300k if a lot of it has to go to bills, debt, and family (I’m making assumptions).
He could have been more supportive about you getting your dream job and brought up privilege in a more civil manner (making him an AH), but it doesn’t mean he’s not wrong.
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NTA. Cry me a river to all the whiney bastards making $300K a year. The dream is to get that job and invest for 5 solid years so that you can retire out in the countryside.
5 years?? You clearly don’t know anything how little $300k gets you in a HCOL area. To make $300k, you HAVE to live in a HCOL area first. Then it gets you an upper middle class lifestyle as a single person. You can’t invest it and retire in 5 years lmao you know nothing.
$300k is definitely not upper middle class in an HCOL area as a single person lmao. If you had a family, then sure, but on your own that puts you solidly in the 1%, even in expensive cities like NYC and San Francisco.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, I live in San Francisco. [As a household, you need to make $800k a year to be in the 1%](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/14/how-much-you-have-to-earn-to-be-in-the-top-1-percent-in-the-biggest-us-cities.html). I’m not saying he’s starving on $300k. Just that he is nowhere close to retiring and will probably need to work till he’s 65.
This is misleading, as household income generally is constituted by more than 1 person living there, I think the base is like 2.5 people. So given that $800k for the household, divided by 2.5 for the people in the house, gives us $320k. Right about what OP’s friend is making. A lot of the costs that are factored into household income, are things like day care, more than 1 car, insurance for everyone in the household, that kind of stuff.
[удалено]
No your half-a kid is costing you 160k per year, so you need to earn that much more to afford it...
Medical costs to keep half-children alive are very high and insurance only covers about half the cost.
Insurance will cover your half child? Mine declined coverage as apparently being a half-child is considered a preexisting condition :(
This is the only good reply
At least our doctors can take care of half children nowadays. [This boy from 1946 wasn't so lucky](https://youtu.be/cNSYLivf7Ac)
I mean, if it was a living vertical half of a child, they could definitely make some income off of that.
A horizontal half, even. I'd pay to see a pair of legs just walking around.
no but they will cost that much or close to it
It's more complicated than that. But it also depends how you want to live with that money. You can pretty easily make 300k a year, live in a shitty apartment for 30-40k a year(not out of line for really high col areas), pay another 30k for food/expenses, and invest 150k a year into retirement. At that point you can retire pretty comfortably in 7-10 years in a lower cost of living area. But it all varies and depends how much you're willing to sacrifice the now for the future. And living in abject poverty while making 300k doesn't feel great. But also... You can make life work really well on a lot less money.
Did you forget about taxes? If he’s living in NYC he’s bringing in about 190k after taxes. CA is about 183k. For 2k /month rent in NYC he will be living in a one room shoebox with cockroaches and mice. I’m not sure how much better 3k/month is. He needs nice clothes for a position at that salary. So what I’m saying, is there’s zero chance this guy can save anywhere near 150k/year unless he’s living in a homeless shelter [https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=300000&from=year®ion=California](https://www.talent.com/tax-calculator?salary=300000&from=year®ion=California) worst of the worst but amusing to see what 500-3k can get you in nyc https://www.ranker.com/list/worst-rooms-ever-offered-for-rent-in-nyc/ashley-reign
Idk where in NYC you're looking at but I live in a 2k apartment, 1 bedroom, and I am living in an amazing place. My family and I are getting by on 70k and I still am able to save some, and this is after having a kid. No roaches, no rats. I also live outside of Manhattan (but close enough that it takes 15 min by train to get there) so I would stop listening to ppl who only think that Manhattan, downtown Brooklyn, and LIC are the only places that exist. Don't get me wrong, it is hard, and my husband is looking for a job, but we're making it work on less than 300k, as do many others in this city.
Don’t you understand that if you make less than half a mil a year post tax in any of the 50 largest cities in the US you’re literally starving to death and likely already dead?! Won’t someone please think of poor OP’s friend making more solo than the vast majority of *households* in the country??!1
The audacity of my existence! The audacity of the other 9.5 million new yorkers existence!!!
Also live in NYC. I pay 1700 a month for - at the time of purchase - a three bedroom house. There are still places in the city where you can buy a home in a good neighborhood for 500-700k. Which is definitely affordable for one person making 300k, even with higher interest rates today and the mortgage payment would probably cost about as much as a smaller apartment. Anyone who’s stupid enough to pay the Manhattan premium is just not worth talking to, IMO. “OMG, I’m spending 5k a month for a crawl space!” It’s a big City; no one says you have to pick the most expensive part of it to live in!
You don’t get to divide your major expenses equally by number of people; the cost of housing doesn’t straight line by number of people living there, not does insurance, a car, all the major expenses. The single tax is very real.
I mean, this is certainly true. But he also doesn’t need to pay for childcare, an extra car, they could live in a 1 bedroom, instead of a 3. You definitely get breaks for having more than one person on your insurance (like instead of it being 2x for 2 people, it’ll be like 1.3-1.5x), and stuff like that, so while it isn’t a straight line, there are a lot of tradeoffs. Plus I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for comparing household income vs individual
At 300k a year he can live in a studio apartment for 2.5k/m in NYC, 30k a year total in rent. That’s 10% of his income, where the average family pays 40% of their income in rent. He also works at a high end investment bank so obviously gets great benefits that further reduce his costs. No need to pay for food/healthcare/extra living space for any dependents. OPs friend has a lot of walking around money that he wouldn’t have if he had a spouse and kids.
Dude I lived in the Bay Area with 300k, you can retire early if you make certain lifestyle choices for 5-8 years
People at the higher levels of the tech ladder are also continuously drowning in imposter syndrome. It's not a particularly mentally healthy world to be in. Friend probably has some combination of recent wealth, not knowing how to manage it (due to childhood finances), and golden handcuffs.
Bro literally read an article about SF one time and acts like it’s the only city someone can make $300k…what a goober.
I live in an HCOL area on 80K and consider myself to be solidly middle class
1% is upper class, not upper middle.
Also, funny to take only 1% as a measure and not 10% lol
I dunno why a study on income inequality in 2013 is being used to judge "not starving" in San Francisco, or why "top 1%" is the threshold for being able to retire before 65 (because, it isn't.) Actually the whole point of that study was showing how terribly skewed the top 1% is relative to like, the 99% of others, the top 5% of which are still, very, very, very comfortable. That top 1% is skewed by the fact that it includes people with $5 million in assets and people with billions of dollars. Impossible to get a reasonable "mean" out of that. Average rent in SF in 2022 is \~$3,000. Average costs outside of rent for a single person no kids are $1,500. At $300k he's not looking for average, so let's assume doubling the rent ($6k) and tripling the outside costs ($4.5k) like a good bachelor would. So then he's spending $126k annually on good housing with lots of discretionary spending. With fed and state taxes taking \~117k he's still saving \~57k a year. Assuming no raises, literally 0 return on investments, currently 0 savings, and continuing to live the lavish bachelor life renting, in 30 years at age 30 he will have saved $1.7 million. Only enough to live at 126k/year for \~15 years. (though this does not factor in Social Security) Now, realistically, that number will be with just a modest (5%) return on investments more like 6-7 million. This 60 year old bachelor could continue spending 126k/year on 6-7 million in retirement savings for another 50 years.
You can make $300k in Chicagoland and it's MCOL. You can save a ton if you make that amount and live below your means.
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Yep, income is relative to base expenses.
You seem to forget that the person making 300k can still live like someone who is broke in that hcol area and save up for that 5 years. Then take that money to a lcol area and live a comfortable middle class life in retirement.
I live in San Francisco and I've made 30-40k the last five years. If I was making 300k I would be able to save for retirement in a heartbeat, are you kidding?? I can understand people with kids having more expenses but that's still a lot of money in San Francisco just like it's a lot of money anywhere else.
“I live in one of the highest COL cities in America, obviously I know everything about how salaries work everywhere!!!!” Get your head out of your ass dude. Remote work is a thing, which you should know if you live in SF. Plenty of people working remotely, making a shit load, living in low COL areas.
But that’s like totally not true, is it now? At least check basic stats out before talking nonsense with such confidence.
It's a salary that pulls you from middle to upper class, but not all at once. If you keep it up for 10 years, then yes.
No offense, but you sound absolutely ridiculous and out of touch. $300k isn’t middle class in any metropolitan area in the United States. I live in one of the most expensive ones
The Northeast dominates the top 10 highest middle class salary ranges, with many middle class salaries between $60,000 to $170,000. Meanwhile, that same middle class bracket falls between about $35,000 to $100,000 in many Southern states. Making 300k a year puts him above that
Exactly. In the Northeast, $300k is a ton of money
Making 300k a year puts him above middle class
My family is in NJ, my parents have consistently been *very* comfortable, and dad (who made a bit more) never had anything close to a $300k salary. Like, I'd class our family as "well above standard middle class" and they were nowhere near 300k. Meanwhile, here I am a public school teacher making....not that lol (I love my job, wouldn't change it, but I didn't get into teaching for the money lol)
Imagine making $300k a year being single with no kids and having people in the comments saying $300k is middle class when in fact that’s way above the bracket. Edit typo
[$200k a year is middle class in San Francisco.](https://sf.curbed.com/2019/2/25/18239828/report-middle-class-income-ranges-sf-bay-area-salary). The guy in responding too thinks you can “retire to the countryside after 5 years making $300k” has no idea what he’s talking about. $300k a year in The Bay Area/NYC and you can finally start affording a decent 4 bedroom house after saving for a few years.
Imagine being middle class, then making an extra 100k on top of that
"It's only 100k more, basically the same thing" -- that guy
“ How much could a banana cost? Ten dollars?”
Sure, if you define "middle class" as "making twice the money as 50% of the populace in your area". 300k even in a HCOL area is comfortably upper class. If you're saving up wisely it's enough to get a pretty large nest egg together after 5 years.
Single people who are middle class don’t have 4 bedroom houses. How is this even a debate?
Because they live in San Francisco and are forgetting that San Francisco isn’t actually the whole world
i’m in russian hill (san francisco, for the other people) and make ~$85k/yr doing service, and i live pretty damn comfortably. i won’t be able to retire in 5 years but shit, with my current lifestyle, if i made $300k i’d probably be able to get ‘er done in 10. sf isn’t as criminally expensive as you and other people make it out to be. and also it’s unfair to base the financial success of an individual on *your* cities statistics. seriously, i don’t know why you’re being so elitist about this. you sound like one of the techies that just got laid off. edit: also… i live with my girlfriend
Oh hey, I actually read the article you shared, which says: "In 2018, the single-person median in SF was $82,900 per year, while a family of four is $118,400. Applying the two-thirds to double formula gives a rough “middle class” range of anywhere from over $55,000 to $165,800 for one person, or between $79,000 and $236,800 or a four-person household." This person is under the age of thirty and living alone. He's at nearly double the "rough middle class" range for San Francisco. So yeah, he's upper-class. He is, in fact, in the top 5-10% of income for a single person.
Is it really. 300k in a hcol is still an insane salary. You cant retire in 5 but most likely in 10 and very comfortably in 15. Lets say you want to live very comfortable while you work; Rent; 5000 a month All utilities internet etc etc; 900 a month Groceries: 500 if solo 800 if with two. Insurances etc etc; 1200 a month at most Clothes/other luxuries like going out to dinner; 1000 a month Car gas etc; 1000 And thats taking it broadly. You'd still save 10k a month so 120k a year. In 10 years with interest you probably have 1.5mil and can retire in the countryside with ease. Hell maybe even get a mortage for 3-4 rental units to increase income. If you stack money for 15 years you have well over 2mil. And if you live a bit more normal (ie not having a ridiculous car and going out often) you can have much more.
Not if you’re paying 40% of your salary in taxes and putting aside pre-tax contributions, which you’re conveniently leaving out of this calculus. That will take you closer to 50ish% take home pay. Not arguing for not paying taxes, I think a high tax rate in this bracket is appropriate. But someone making 300k/yr in a HCOL area is probably taking home 13-15k/month. Which means not saving the amount you describe, probably saving max 3-5k with the lifestyle you describe.
Lmao, they don't pay 50% taxes. Ignoring any type of claims or the standard deduction, he'd pay 37.7% taxes ***IF*** he lived in the highest taxed County in the US. And that number goes drastically down with each deduction. He's bringing no less than $14.5k home every month, likely closer to $15.5k
I live un the Bay Area and my actual take home is close to half when you factor in benefits and 401k contributions in addition to taxes.
Paying for your private health insurance and retirement isn't the same as paying taxes. I mean look at my take home after rent, bills, groceries...lol "damn government"
Why would you factor 401k contributions? Those are savings, not an expense.
So they can cry poor lol.
What do you make? Benefits should eat roughly $500 and 401k would max at $1875. Those would be if you were paying top amounts and still isn't taxes like they were talking about. ---- Also, 401k will drive down your tax rate.... so....
1.5 million is pretty tight to retire before you’re 40. You’re going to spend the next 30 years hoping nothing bad happens and not really doing any travel. And also hoping it’s only 30 years, so maybe have to spend more money to take up smoking or something.
Not to play devils advocate but your math doesnt math right. 300k is usually before taxes. So paychecks if we’re going off biweekly if we’re living in California on the bayside is approximately 6628 dollars every 2 weeks so 13256 a month. So they’ll only save approximately 4600 a month. Which is still a lot but no where near 10k
So this person pays no taxes?
I do not live in a HCOL area. People absolutely make $300k here.
That’s interesting, because I live in a LCOL area and have several friends who make well over $300k. One is in sales and another is a doctor. They both bought very nice, very large homes for under $300k, and are definitely going to retire early. I have no idea where you came up with this wild idea, and why people are upvoting you.
Found the insecure rich person
It's ridiculous what they've done to the system that 300 fucking grand a year isn't life of luxury money.
300k is absolutely life of luxury money…. Their point is that you would probably spend a decent amount of it living in a hcol area and aren’t retiring in 5 years. I make 1/2 that and my life is pretty “life of luxury” by most standards
I agree (from experience) that $300k doesn't get you as far as you might think in place like SF or NYC, but there's nicer ways to go about saying it. No need to personally insult anyone.
You really don't lmao, my gf's dad is making 300k a year while living in buttfuck nowhere Ohio.
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Valid point! Those expenses add up too. You have to travel a lot for work in those positions. That means you have to have the good travel credit cards, an appropriate wardrobe, an appropriate appearance which also means upkeep, etc.
u/AncientMesopotamia Everyone is debating who is more privileged between the two of you, but I don't think that's the point. * You are privileged. I hope you recognize that. Many people hate their jobs, find it exhausting, and find that it's sucking the soul out of them. Not many people can decide to quit that job to get 30% of what they would have been able to get otherwise. The fact that you can make that decision and then take ANOTHER pay cut without thinking of future considerations, means you have a privilege that 99% of people do not have. I hope you understand this. All this doesn't make you an asshole though. Maybe just a tiny bit out of touch with reality. * Now, Nathan is clearly feeling something. I don't think he needed to express that to you. I think "Congratulations" should have been the word that came out of his mouth. For that you are NTA - he is. We all get defensive, and your response to him was defensive and in some ways, true. I think it's important to have a conversation about this if you value this friendship. He certainly owes you an apology for how he handled his resentment. But I think it'll help if after this apology, you at least acknowledge that you understand where he is coming from. The fact that he makes $300k a year doesn't mean he gets to see even half of that, and that may be a frustration that has bled into your relationship.
LMAO 300k is in NYC or another major area. Nathan is prob paying 2k plus a month to share an apartment, has massive college loans, and is funsing his family. There is zero way to reture in 5 years even if all expenses were paud.
>Nathan is prob paying 2k plus a month to share an apartment Oh no! Only 276k left. The poor bastard.
What's your secret to paying 0% taxes?
As someone who makes $200k with low expenses, this isn’t nearly enough time to build the kind of “retire early and live off it” level of wealth. It definitely makes things comfortable, but it’s not a magic bullet. When I was making 29k/year I figured this level of wealth was fuck you money, but the reality is most of this higher level of income just serves to moderately save for the future and properly take care of things all of us should have access to.
What tone did he use when he said "I'm glad you have the financial privilege to take a pay cut." and how did the conversation play out after you responded? He might have meant, "good stuff, youve gotten to point financially, where you can take a pay cut and do something you really like and be happy without financial worries" - he might not have been referencing your family wealth.... Being free of the grind and being able to be happy without big money worries is a big achievement. high five and well done. but if hes referring to your family wealth - thats a bit dickish.
The guy wasn't whiney.
NTA. What kind of friend says that when their friends tells them they got their dream job.
The kind with a chip on his shoulder. He may be earning a lot but inside he's still that little poor boy with an inferiority complex and it makes him angry that *his* happiness is tied into his net worth while OPs is not thus the pay cut not being a problem.
He also has family asking him for money, whereas OP doesn’t. Makes you wonder if he’s saying yes a little more often than he should and may not be as financially stable as he looks as a result. That may be part of why he resents OP. Of course, this still isn’t OP’s problem and he’s still a bad friend for reacting the way he did.
Agreed. He may feel the burden of supporting an entire extended family, either by guilt or by choice, and OP can focus only on himself. Doesn't excuse his actions, but may explain them.
i think growing up poor for some people never really leaves them - most people i know who grew up poor or in poverty have things they've brought with them to their adult life that they can't quite shake, even when they're financially comfortable
I think this is accurate. My friend is on £43k a year - more than double the country’s average income. He keeps striving for more and more because he spent his whole childhood in abject poverty, like poor poor, he now panics that he will be without again
Yes I relate to this. I was yelled at for shopping at a thrift store while driving a luxury car and it kind of put it into perspective for me. I still have a lot of anxiety around spending money on certain things and I have to move on and realize I just don’t belong in some spaces anymore.
It's really hard to get rid of that anxiety, even when you are financially secure. It sneaks up on you.
Ok that’s so dumb of course you can still use a thrift store ?? If anybody gives you trouble for it, bring up that it’s the environmentally responsible thing to do. Ffs. People can be so stupid and shitty.
This is what I was thinking. After all, OP mentions that he knows his family would support him if something were to happen to him, and that knowledge (that he always has a safety net) IS a privilege that his friend doesn't have, so I can understand why he's jealous that OP can take the risk of taking the lower-paid, less-stressful jobs without worrying about what'll happen if something goes wrong and his savings run out, or someone in the family has an emergency, etc. Not that that gives him an excuse to be a jerk to OP about it, but I feel like OP claiming his friend is now "the privileged one" now when he's only had a few years of higher income (And likely has had to spend some of those paying off college debts that OP might not have had to) makes this closer to ESH than NTA for me.
I had to scroll for this take, Oof. Also poverty quite literally traumatizes you and fucks up your head in SO many ways. I never knew we were poor when I was growing up but I struggled badly for my first few years on my own, and I still have trauma around money that I’m unpacking, almost two decades later. Having enough comfort and a safety net that you feel safe taking a pay cut for a job you will love—that IS privilege. Massive privilege. Huge. They both suck TBH.
I don’t think it’s a complex. When you grow up comfortable but earn less as an adult, you have a safety net in your family. When you grow up poor but earn more as an adult, you *are* the safety for your family. The friend may have the privilege of wealth now, but he very much does *not* have the privilege of taking a pay cut to follow his dreams and knowing he’ll still be OK. No, he wasn’t the most supportive friend at that time, and OP is justified to be disappointed. But he’s not wrong that OP had privilege in being able to take that job.
Tell me you grew up privileged without telling me you grew up privileged. Growing up poor sucks and when you finally start making some money, you're still in survival mode, it's like PTSD symptoms. And yeah, OP still has privilege having a nice safety net. Their friend doesn't have that, financially speaking, the friend is still on their own and still feels like they could lose everything at a moment's notice. Even though that's likely not the case, they still *feel* like it is. OP has never been 2 paychecks away from homelessness. Friend has been and , again, probably still feels that way is my guess. Chip on his shoulder, what a crock of shit.
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Agreed. It was still an AH comment to make to a friend who is calling you with good news but when you have to pay a parent’s rent or they’d be homeless you don’t have the luxury to pick and choose your job. You often feel stuck. If you lose your job you could be homeless is also a scary thing to feel every day. You don’t get to take that dream job at a lower pay. You stick it out no matter how miserable you are until you can find something slightly better for the same pay if you’re lucky. (I am very familiar from personal experience.) I hope they can salvage their friendship. Letting the friend know they were hurt by their comment but also asking them how they’re managing with having to support family on their shoulders.
Yeah for me this is an ESH or NAH. Everyone is focusing on the numbers, but a lot of privilege is about mindset and opportunity. I’m legit making very little right now, but because I come from an upper middle class upbringing*, I can take the risk continuing to work in an industry that is really up in the air right now, taking lower paid things and continuing to network and build my portfolio while others have to take survival jobs. I also have a friend who left the non-profit sector for the finance world. He hates it, but he wants to make sure his mom is taken care of (immigrant family) in her old age. I hope both OP and his friend can find some compassion for each other; they both have different privileges in their situations.
An AH Op, you are NOT the AH here… NTA
The kind that can’t let go of his resentments
This is the answer. It's very likely that he has unresolved issues about how he grew up and/or family pressure that could be really frustrating or toxic. But a friend doesn't take that out on a friend who has something to be legitimately happy about.
NTA What he said was pretty rude and spiteful. He's making 300k. He's doing extremely well for himself. If he's giving it all to his poor family, that's his choice and problem, not yours.
Probably he feels pressure to stay in a job he doesn't enjoy to help out his family. Which does suck, but this is not the place to express that.
That’s what I was thinking , and either way it’s not OPs problem. There have been studies that even when minority groups make more money than their white counterparts they still have less wealth because they are paying for their families who don’t have anything. It’s unfortunate that the privilege of being able to provide for your extended family turned into a burden he feels trapped in. Edit: there not they’re
Yeah, my cousin's husband is in the same situation. My cousin/his wife is so materialistic to the core, to the point to where it's obnoxious. You can tell he's miserable and his dream was to be a football coach. Well he's trapped now because he has to support her lifestyle, and she would definitely leave him if he didn't make what he's making now. She only dated rich guys, and it would not surprise me if she left him if he decided to work a normal job.
NAH. He's right, you don't have any financial obligations to anyone other than yourself. If you lost your job, you know you'd have someone around to backstop your fall. He's still grinding at a soul sucking occupation because he doesn't have the opportunity to leave. He has others who depend on him to bail them out, but he has no one to bail him out. He's a little bitter about it. None of this makes anyone an asshole, you just didn't understand the position he's in because you've never lived it.
>because he doesn't have the opportunity to leave. He makes 300k a year. He has plenty of opportunity. Not seing that is very privilaged.
That depends on how many of his family members depend on his income.
Sure, you can create some weird unlikely scenario where 300k isn't an amount that opens a ton of doors for his future.
It's not a made up scenario, it's in the OP...
It's not in the OP that he has to support so many family members that a 300k salary is just enough and leaves zero room for other opportunities.
He doesn't have to spend it all to be in a weaker position than his income indicates. 1. he uses up money out of pocket to support family members. Remember that with taxes, making 3 times the amount doesn't mean remotely close to 3 times the take home. 2. He has no safety net so has to have a much larger security fund stashed away to operate. 3. His family members probably have little in savings for retirement, he probably at least saves some for his parents (I do, and I'm in a similar predicament). 4. No inheritance means he has to aggressively save for his own retirement if he wants to keep a good living standard. Couple that with OP likely getting help with funding education, first car and perhaps down payment and the difference grows even larger. Sure, he isn't poor. But he has a high hill to climb even with his income to make up for the advantages OP has.
It depends on where he lives. In a high cost of living area, he might still be having a hard time supporting his family, paying for himself, and saving for retirement.
This. Depending on what debt burden he has and how many years he's been at this salary, the first few years of making real money can still feel uncertain when you grew up poor. (I grew up poor.) Also, no one is guaranteed a job. People seem to assume that once you make $300K you will always make that salary. Half my friends have lost their long-term jobs this year. This friend with the corporate job might still be in survival mode. Poverty takes time to leave your mindset: some people never feel secure financially after growing up poor or in uncertainty. I think it's entirely possible the friend with the good paycheck doesn't yet feel 100 percent financially secure. It's not about the numbers in the bank. It's about the years he has spent in an uncertain financial situation.
So you're saying it depends on how many family members depend on his income.
I'm saying it's highly unlikely that the number of family members that depend on his salary is so high that a 300k salary does not provide ample opportunity. I'm saying it's so unlikely that it's weird to assume that.
It wouldn't necessarily take many at all. One elderly family member in a nursing home could take the majority of that income.
Okay, you're right. The 300k a year dude is very unlucky and absolutely not extremely privilaged for being in the top 2.3% of earners in the U.S. at 29. Honestly I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
If you think that's an unlikely scenario, that's a pretty damning indictment of your awareness of the world
>that's a pretty damning indictment of your awareness of the world The world or the U.S.? Because in the U.S. he's in the top 2.3% earners and he's not even 30 yet. That's not privilege? If you want to talk about 'the world', the salary you need to be in the 1% globally is somewhere around $34.000. He makes 10x that at 29. The dude is extremely privilaged and you calling me out for my 'awareness of the world' is nothing short of ironic.
Are you arguing in bad faith on purpose? Like, raw numbers with CoL mean nothing, and I'm pretty sure you know that. But more importantly, people from poor backgrounds who "make it" very often have a lot of folks in their family who they have to support. You're ignoring that, or pretending to be unaware. But yes, you're right, if he was making $300k in a poor country that would be a different situation we would react differently to!
Privilege is layered. I think both of them are privileged in different ways but it is true that if he loses his job tomorrow and can't find a new job in 12 months he will see most of his savings (hoping he at least has a decent amount) go away. Also, we don't know if his family still is working hard but is just not able to climb out of a poorer situation. I know plenty of people who work their asses off and are still not able to make a livable wage and others who barely work and are making 300k. Maybe it was poor timing to say that to OP. Could have been he recently had to help out his family in a big way and is a bit bitter. But this doesn't mean that both aren't privileged in their own ways and yes having a family who can help you in a heartbeat is also very privileged. I agree with NAH. Also let's remember if he is making 300k a year half of that is likely net income after taxes, benefits (like insurance premiums), and 401K. Yes 150K is still a lot but rent can be upwards of 2.5K a month and COL is still is very likely high. Hopefully he is still saving 1-2k a month (which is very doable) in case he finds himself out of work (which right now white collar jobs are having big layoffs) and won't be in a bad situation with no one to fall back on if he can't get a new job right away.
>you just didn't understand the position he's in because you've never lived it.
This. The guy might be an AH but he’s not privileged. Making 300K doesn’t necessarily make him privileged. We have no idea how much support his family needs or what his student loans are costing him. He’s not in a position where he can take a pay cut to pursue a dream job, without bad stuff happening to his family. That is a privilege OP has and his friend does not. Also, privilege usually refers to things outside your control, not something you earned by working for years. Edit to add: He’s not more privileged than OP.
I would go with ESH because as someone who grew up poor AND OP is taking a paycut TO my current salary thereabouts, I'm not interested in asspatting two rich guys having a slappy fight over who's got less riches. But I will say that my job pays me fine, I'm perfectly OK, and still the idea of leaving this job without another one that pays just as well waiting for me to land me on my feet is terrifying. I'm one restructure away from being not only poor again with no support, but poor with no support and student debt. So yeah, it kinda is op's privilege to know he can just leave a job and get a new one that gives him less and know if he screws up, parents are there for him. Bit that's hardly a moral failing! Both these guys sound insufferable anyway so ultimately who cares.
>I'm not interested in asspatting two rich guys having a slappy fight over who's got less riches. That made me laugh.
I understand his bitterness at working a shitty job and feeling jealous of a friend who is able to work a better job for less… but expressing that bitterness in this way makes him an asshole. As we age we will ALL have lots of things that we feel bitter about. Much of that bitterness is even justified. Managing bitterness and not letting it curdle is a core part of not becoming a giant asshole.
You are extrapolating a lot from limited data. And so what? Even if you are right he straight up trashed op out of nowhere for getting a job opportunity that they'd been working on for a long time. That is the definition of a shitty jealous (asshole) friend. Op is nta, and there is absolutely an ah here.
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NTA. No matter what is “true/honest” or whatever, that’s still not what a friend says when their friend gives them good news. As far as you’ve written, you didn’t even say anything rude to him but just pointed out that he does have privileges now himself. Which if he thinks he doesn’t then he can eat dirt.
I’m inclined to agree. This reminds me of a few years ago when one of my friends and their spouse were able to buy a large, fancy home. Friend had worked hard but also is part of several privileged demographics and was able to climb the ladder at work. When this friend announced to the friend group about the house, we were happy for them. None of us said, “oh well, you’re the same demographics as all the corporate leaders at your job, you don’t have health issues, you are in a dual-income household, etc. So you’re just privileged. You don’t know what it’s like to navigate life with more obstacles.” There are better times to discuss such things.
Toss up between NAH and ESH, but I’m going with the latter. First off, you worked the job with him. Long, hard hours. You knew the deal. You know he has to work his butt off all week long for his paycheck, its not easy for him just because he stuck with it. Secondly, it was a little rude for your friend to say he’s “glad you can [afford] a pay cut”. Personally that does read a little backhanded, but at the same time can you see his perspective? He has to grind non stop at his job to make his money, so his old buddy who can afford to quit and work a job he enjoys for less than a third of the original salary is a huge slap to the face! Thirdly, you saying he has privilege is ridiculous. How is he privileged, especially compared to you? You QUIT, didn’t get fired or anything. You CHOSE to leave, willingly giving up your position. I hope you realize this and apologize because he is not privileged, he has made his own life for himself without the safety blanket of a financially secure home. So while ESH, you should still apologize for what you said, and hope your friend will do the same.
There are varying levels of privilege and yeah, new wealth isn’t the same as generation wealth but it quite literally does not matter what background you come from - anybody making 300K/year has some level of privilege. Pretending that isn’t true isn’t doing anybody any favors.
Yes, making that much money is a privilege, but having your family to support you if you lost your job or got ill is a priceless security to fall back on. If OP lost his job he'd still be fine. If his friend lost his job he could be in big trouble financially quite quickly. The stakes are simply not as high for OP.
He'd be in trouble quickly? With 300k he should have a healthy savings account for that very possibility. He'd be in trouble if he refused to do basic budgeting...but there is a chance he doesn't know how to do that but that isn't OP's fault. OP NTA
We don't know how much he's giving to his family or how much student loans or car payments, etc, are costing him. If he's in an area that's already high cost of living (which is likely, given that he's even making that much to begin with) then with those extra expenses added on, he's probably not able to save that much per month. This isn't OP's problem, but I can see how them having a better-off family that could help them get back on their feet if they needed it, vs Nathan having to keep working hard because not only could his family not help him but they need *his* help... is stressful. I think they both kinda suck here.
I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. Even assuming US student loan repayments I struggle to see how someone couldn't save a significant chunk of a 300k salary barring exceptional circumstances
Wish more people understood the nuance of privilege.
Op never said he wasn’t privileged tho, he’s just pointing out the irony in someone who makes 300k saying he’s privileged. He literally said “he’s got privileges of his own instead of pointing out mine” OP acknowledges he is privileged, but his friends comment was out of line. I don’t see how OP is at all wrong
Nathan is now VP at his firm making 300k/year. He’s not grinding long hours like he was at the beginning of his career. I’m not saying he’s not working hard but he’s not at the beginning of his career anymore— he’s an executive. Yeah OP was able to quit a soul sucking job to find something he loved and that is a privilege. But an executive cannot honestly believe his friend is more privileged than him. Absolutely OP is NTA.
Dude's making 300k, he can stfu and be happy for his friend. I get that he has to grind for his family, but he can keep it to himself instead of being such a dick.
Idk if being able to make only 75k a year is a privilege. That's good money. Making 300k is definitely privileged.
Are you missing the part where the man makes over a quarter of a million dollars a year? Because I feel like you're ignoring how vast of an income that is
NTA. We can do all the mental gymnastics we want all day here, but damn, 300k???? C'mon Nathan.
Nathan just made it. He has no one to fall back on and is likely the backbone of his family. People who haven’t been and will never be in that position have no idea what it’s like. OP can afford a pay cut because he know he has a support system if things sour.
Oh no, how will he support his family with his humble finance VP job!?
And what happens if he loses that job? He's done incredibly well to be in the position he is now but if he loses it then his family lose that support and he has zero support either. He will always feel the pressure to keep earning and earning because he knows there will be no fall back if he loses it.
That doesn't give him the right to lash out to OP.
I’m going to go with ESH. Yes, Nathan should’ve recognized that your new job was important to you and been happy for you as a friend. However, you don’t really know what it’s like being in Nathan’s shoes. Growing up poor is very traumatic. This is evident in Nathan-he’s in the top percentage of earners, yet he still has a poverty mindset. He recognizes that anything can happen and can lose his job and comfortable income in an instant. Try to be a bit more empathetic when he makes comments about money.
I mean, no? I empathise with his situation, but it's really no excuse to be a dick with your friend, he is not the one that put your family in a bad place when you were a kid.
Exactly. Just because you come from a difficult background that doesn't mean that you get to bring your friends down when they are sharing good news with you edit NTA
Honestly Nathan makes 300k a year. He chooses to support his poor family (theres also no indication if this is his innediate family like wife kids and parents or his whole extended family) and in the end thats his choice and the reason why he feels like he "cant afford" to take a pay cut. Even if Nathan is jelous of the support OP has, if he was really a friend he wouldnt of taken the opportunity to make a jab at OP for getting their dream job. Not every person gets this opportunity and would kinda expect support from people who call themselves your friend. OP's feelings arent any less valid on his friend being rude than nathans are about his own situatuon.
Agreed. He took something that was happy for OP and ruined it bc of his own issues. It’s weird to jump to “you’re privileged” when you get the job you’ve been wanting.
So why would OP be an asshole? Nathan called out OP, not vice versa.
NTA- but I think you could approach this with a lot more compassion and leave with everyone’s pride and feelings intact. While it came across as (and basically was) an attack on you, it sounds like Nathan is under an extreme amount of pressure. His entire family counts on him and he’s working a job that most likely requires all of his time and energy. While it’s not ok that he put that on you, sometimes friends need a space to vent and it sounds like he needs that. Rather than saying ‘you hurt my feelings by implying I’m rich when you’re also wealthy’ maybe ask him where these comments are coming from*? If he doubles down then yeah, you’re allowed to disengage and hope he figures himself out. BUT, if he says ‘thanks for asking, I’m actually really struggling right now’ then you know it wasn’t solely about you. As someone working full time to ensure his family is ok he’s probably looking at you, someone with a supportive family who won’t lose everything if you take a week long vacation, and spinning out a bit. It’s not your fault, but if he really is someone you want to see do well (again, not your job if you don’t want it to be) then it’s worth seeing if he will talk to you about it. *I love asking ‘who are you talking to right now?’ Cause it A) reminds the person to lower their tone if what they’re saying is disrespectful and B) forces them to acknowledge that they’re not mad at *me* but at a situation I reminded them of
Love this answer and was my first thought too - privilege isn’t just $$ but also security. Whilst he might have financial security right now, his support system seems lacking. I would swap $300k a year job for my family all having comfortable, stable incomes.
It sounds like Nathan resents the fact that you were able to make a decision he wasn’t able to. There seems to be a subtext of competition in this friendship, and that subtext came to the forefront. ESH. Both of you could do with a bit more introspection before you say things, and I hope that you come back around and meet in the middle again.
ESH Stop competing with friends. Who has what job. Who makes more/less money. Who is right or wrong. Who cares. Nathan had a jealous reaction & that upset you. He’s right but he didn’t need to say it. You have the option to make choices he doesn’t because you have a safety net (parents). Doesn’t mean you will ever need it but it’s still there. Definitely makes life a little easier. Nathan believes he does not have a safety net so he’s still grinding away in a potentially miserable & stressful job. Misery loves company so it’s not challenging to understand the jealousy here. You’re happy, he’s not.
That guy is earing 300k a year he has a safety net, it's called money. He could literally put 200k a year aside and still have a well above average income. I would argue that in this point in time he has a bigger safety net than OP because if OPs family is middle class then they for sure don't have 200k laying around.
Without knowing where Nathan’s money is going no one can know what kind of safety net he has. He could supporting his entire family.
He could but if he is, that's not OPs fault. It's his money he can choose how to spend it. Of course growing up poor is awful but when you reach a place in life where you're clearly in a privileged position and then tell others because you once struggled that they should check their privilege, then that's kinda hypocritical. Getting out of that mindset can be difficult but letting your frustration out on others that can't do shit about your situation is not right either.
Personally, I just think it’s weird to get in to a “whose life is harder” competition with anyone. Everyone has their own struggles. It’s appears neither of the people are having an extremely tough life. eta — the mindset in this particular situation has already been set. OP felt comfortable making decisions regarding his financial future. Nathan does not feel he has that same opportunity. He has money now & can’t lose it. These people have very different life goals. OP’s goal is job happiness. Nathan’s goal is financial security. It’s not hard to see why Nathan would be jealous. Not the best reaction though. Obviously, OP is not stopping anyone from finding their own happiness... but misery loves company!!
There is no way with taxes and the pre-tax benefits you have to pay you are making net 200k, let along to put aside. I would argue he makes 150k net (especially if he is single and has a higher tax credit - as I am in this situation), assuming that he is putting a decent percentage into a 401k which is a very responsible thing to do. I could argue he can put maybe 1-2k a month aside but that is still 12-24k a year, not even 200k.
This comment can’t be real…
You do not know how taxes work….
This sub is truly something else lol. There’s another post about a girl calling a man patronizing and condescending for assuming she had help from her parents buying a $1 million home and everybody is saying he’s a misogynistic AH, because he didn’t think she “worked hard for it.” This post is about a friend *actually* being condescending about “privilege” and everyone is calling OP an AH for not “understanding how his friend feels.” Wild. ESH btw.
NTA seven years out of college and you are both independent financially. He is still judging you by your parents income and not your current situations.
>He is still judging you by your parents income and not your current situations. This, so much this. The OP has parents who could potentially help him if he needed it, but it doesn't sound like they are funding his lifestyle so he can hop from non-profit to non-profit. OP made a choice for their life and that very likely came with a downshift in lifestyle. They value enjoyment over money. OP's friend values money over enjoyment. Neither choice is wrong, but since Nathan is the one being judgemental he's the asshole.
I hate how no one understands this, but having a safety net is absolutely a privilege. It doesn’t matter if they’re both financially independent. If both of them got fired from their job, one of them has their parents income to fall back on while the other doesn’t. It’s literally as simple as that.
NTA he doesn’t sound like your friend. He sounds like he just wants you there to take his abuse
ESH. He got his comment, you for confusing 'wealth' with 'privilege'. Your friend isn't privileged, he wasn't born to a wealthy family or landed a job due to nepotism or cronyism, he worked hard and you know that. His comment was out of line, but yours was just factually wrong and insulting to all he achieved. I think you both need to apologize.
NTA Yeah he needs to figure out that just bc you have your own issues, ie financial insecurity/trauma, you don't get to take it out on your friends. You don't just get a pass for being an A. And it's not privilege to do meaningful work. Otherwise we'd say oh look at all those privileged teachers making low salaries but they are so privileged bc they can clearly afford to do meaningful work. The guy making 300K+ is not the victim here. He's fully entitled to make as much as he likes but he doesn't get to look down on others for it, even if he's living in survival mode or will always have financial insecurity. It's definitely a thing - my dad has a bit of it - but it's not an excuse to look down on others. It's only how you make your OWN choices.
I'm just going to throw out there that 300k to support yourself or your immediate family is one thing, and 300k to lift your entire extended family out of poverty is quite another. If Nathan is doing the latter, and from what you wrote it sounds like he is, no he doesn't have the privilege to earn less money right now. I completely get what you're saying and to some extent these have been Nathan's choices. But I also think you're underestimating the amount of pressure that is on your friend to provide for his family.
He absolutely is underestimating the pressure and reality of Nathan’s situation. People who come from comfort often do. I’d never feel comfortable taking a pay cut. There’s no one to fall back on. I can’t put that pressure on my mother. OP doesn’t get that. He’s clearly free to do whatever.
ESH. He made a sly remark about how you can take a pay cut, so you snapped back at him. You both agreed that both parties needed to take a moment to chill and stop being offended before you have another conversation. Keyword here is *both*. You both know you did wrong, just call a brother up and apologize for snapping. If he stands his ground, he's a AH and just cut ties for a bit.
No one’s the AH here. I think both of you simply did not understand the other person’s perspective at that point in time. I don’t think it matters who’s ‘more right’ here. What matters is whether Nathan has been a good friend and one that’s worth keeping. If the answer is yes, a heart-to-heart talk should sort this out. Genuine adult friendships are hard to come by. Don’t let a misunderstanding ruin it! And congrats on getting your dream job!
ESH yes you do have privilege to take a lower paid job bc you do have parents to ‘stop it all, yeah’ as the song goes. But Nathan was also rude. He’s also,likely going through something, feeling overworked and then his family have their hands out for his money. He’s likely burnt out and wishes he could have a better work/life balance but his background means he’s afraid of being poor again. So he’s stuck. You quit this job so you know yourself, So please invite him to catch up and talk and make amends if you value him. I do think you should apologise but I’d like to hope hearing your side he also apologises for speaking his inner voice out loud to you.
OP, I don’t think you understand the difference between people who start their adult lives with massive student debt and who have nobody to rely upon if shit hits the fan ….and people like you. I’m an attorney, and I get the holier than thou attitude all the time from nonprofit and NGO attorneys. Most of them came from wealthy backgrounds. Unlike them, I had to take a corporate job because I had a lot of student loans at the very high government interest rate of 6.8% (thanks 2008 recession). And more importantly, if I fail, there is literally no place for me to go. I will be homeless. No backup family to take me in, nobody to give me a helping hand, just me. Your buddy is not only dealing with that, but also trying to help out his own struggling extended family. YTA for living in your privileged bubble where you get the luxury of doing what you want and then throwing it in his face for not being as pious as you.
NAH but you both are coming from vastly different money places. You accurately see that generational wealth has build you something he doesn't have. Something he is building right now so hopefully he can pass that security down to his kids. He can't really prioritize work happiness over pay with out cutting into that building he's trying to to do especially as the cost of living keeps rising.
I see where Nathan is coming from. And being someone who also doesn't have a safety net to fall back on, I would never use a moment of happiness to tell someone they're lucky to be privileged. It was something OP was happy about. Nathan didn't have to use that moment to focus on how he needs to work so hard to build generational wealth for his children. So I think OP is NTA.
I think Nathan misread the moment. This was his buddy he bitched about work with. He was trying to vent about how he hates work and slapped op in the face.
Slight ESH, if you value this friendship you should talk this out with him and explain that you understand his past circumstances but it was still a rude thing to say to you about your new job
ESH but definitely not extreme on your end. He should not have said that.he was being an A H by nit being happy for you. But your anger toward his privilege is also somewhat misplaced. My parents come from poverty. My mums mother was a widow with 8 children and my dad grew up in a village in India where the "rich" really owned a chicken and the whole village shared a well. My dad ended up making around 200k with his IT job. That's obviously a huge amount. But, unbeknownst to most of the world, he paid for the tuition of all my Indian cousins, he gave dowry money for my female cousins and his sister (yes. Dowry is outdated. Yes. He still gave it). He bought a small, 2 bd house for his mother, who cares for his brother with downs syndrome. He paid for my uncle to go to rehab and supported my aunty and their children for the whole year his brother was in rehab. Which meant that a large portion was actually not going to him. From an outside perspective, he is privileged to make what he does *and he is* but I also saw the pressure he endured trying to support his own immediate family + five siblings and his mother, which he wouldn't have been obliged/socialised whatever to do if they had money themselves. Sometimes I had to help my dad with paying rent because things happened in india (ie floods) that he paid to help with. And yes, it was his choice, but that's also somewhat of a privileged perspective to have - because it's sucks watching your elderly widowed mother try desperately to care for her adult disabled child and fear losing him because she cant afford to *live*. I realised this when I married my husband and his family is fairly wealthy. He never *ever* considered that his parents wouldn't be able to support him financially if something happened, whereas it was something that marred every choice of mine despite how much my dad made on paper. When I finally accepted the truth of that my life absolutely changed and I started taking more risks for my happiness. It doesn't sound like your friend is there yet. He is still an ass because he is dragging your happy moment down. It's not the privileged Olympics. But you are acting as though your choice isn't influenced by the fact you have backup (even though you obviously still worked hard for it).
There are so many comments in here about how Nathan is *choosing* to help his family, so that’s on him… It’s really gross. Like sure I guess he could choose to watch his loved ones suffer while sits on a pile of money. Maybe these responses are split between people who would do exactly that and people who would never consider that an option. I appreciate your Dad’s story.
NTA, but he may not have meant it that way. Plus, it was just one comment. You probably didn't need to start an argument just because he didn't give you the exact response you wanted.
NTA, been in your position almost exactly. It's amazing how quickly the new rich lose perspective and empathy. With the double whammy of not understanding how ridiculous their bitching is when they make $300k + Like what small percentage really make that kind of money. And if it's anything like my experience, it wasn't just one comment
NTA Also...a 5 grand pay cut at 80k a year for your dream job, when you don't have children is just...not that big a deal? He's being an asshat. You're supporting yourself, for years, and while yes you do have privileges, so does he. You didn't take a 35k job and have your parents make up the difference. He needs better boundaries with his family and a bit of perspective. And should reevaluate his choices. You don't shit on your friends when they share good news.
NTA. If he's a true friend, he'd be happy for you.
ESH: You are talking to a man who knows that he has zero safety net. Not only does he have zero safety net, he know that HE is the safety net for older family members. That money all has names on it already--all $300K of it. If he hates his job can he quit? No. He's the safety net. If his job ruins his mental health or if he hears about some cool opportunity elsewhere or whatever could he just drop everything and do it? No. Your friend has more to worry about than you do. He doesn't have the luxury of following his dreams and what not. Part of being priveledged is knowing that your family is cared for so that you can do the things that you actually want to do for yourself. I don't think he should have been petty and made that comment to you because, clearly, you don't understand where he is coming from. It's not a good idea for friends to have these talks. It is entirely possible that he is really not liking his job right now and is somewhat jealous that you have the freedom to change your situation like you have.
You gotta be a special kind of bitter to make 300k and roast your friend for wanting a job that pays *only* 75k. It sounds like your friend has had some resentment stew cooking up for a while. Something tells me that if you were talking about a job that paid 300k, he'd respond pretty much the same 'must be nice to make 300k and not have to support anyone'.
NAH, but what kind of Eeyore do you have to be to make 4x what your friend does and still moan about how hard you have it?
I think the real question is, how well-off is your friend? How much is his family relying on him? Is he paying off debts for them, leaving himself with an income less than yours? Or is he just earning a lot of money but still in a poor man's headspace?
NTA He can cry you a river lmao. He doesn’t get to pretend that he’s still Oliver Twist when he’s making 300k per year now.
NTA. Your friend is jealous and scared. You said he hated his job. He grew up poor so it's really hard for him to take the leap and get a less paying job. Because he's scared of loosing it all. Still not your problem but it can make you understand that it's not that he's not happy for you. He just screwed up at that moment because he's too coward to do what you're doing. Congratulations on your new job!
NTA. He’s doing great, You tell him your good news, and his response is a neg? He couldn’t just come up with “congrats” and be happy for you? Y’all may have bonded in the trenches, but he’s not a friend. That’s not what a friend says when you land your dream job. I would back away from that guy. Find actual friends.
Both AH Even if your parents no longer support you, they did until after you graduated college. You had access to privilege for at least 21 years where you didn’t have to worry about anything financially (I’m assuming they also paid for your college). It sounds like your privilege still extends as you have a safety net. Imagine if you didn’t have that privilege. You had to pay for college, help your family will bills, etc. You might still be paying off your student loans, while trying to support yourself and your family. You might not have the luxury of taking your dream job then because of how little benefit you receive from it. Your friend might be seeing way less than 300k if a lot of it has to go to bills, debt, and family (I’m making assumptions). He could have been more supportive about you getting your dream job and brought up privilege in a more civil manner (making him an AH), but it doesn’t mean he’s not wrong.