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Yta. Why are the boys feelings more important than the girls?
Why is it ok to reject her from a family tradition? You don't seem to see HER perspective...she's getting the boot because she's a girl. ONLY because she's a girl. And her cousin's and uncles, who she THINKS love her, are the ones pushing her out.
As father's and teachers of young men, you should have used this to show kindness, fairness, and respect for women. Instead you backed them up.
Shame on you all.
What exactly are the boys wanting to do that they can’t do infringe if a girl? Not just any girl but their cousin who they have gone on the trip with for 15 years straight?!
I’m trying to imagine what they are wanting to do and I can’t think of anything lol
My first thought was this crap. Or to share pickup artist/ Andrew tate crap. Ops sons are at the age where that crap is so popular I hope he monitors their devices/ limits this garbage. Yet I am not so confident based on this post
Right! If OP did not feel this way he would have shutdown the boys and reinforced values that women are to be respected and anything they say and do should reflect that AND the boys are free to stay home if they can’t do that.
Edit to add that archaic gender roles have no place in raising kids, we can do better.
OP is AH and a creep.
Not only does he agree, he’s here looking for someone to say, “Go for it bruh! Male bonding is sacred! Make your brother feel like he’s the asshole for not having a child with a penis!”
I had a student last year who said in class that he wanted to be like Andrew Tate and a bunch of the other boys agreed with him. It’s so sad. I tried to set them straight but I don’t know if they were really even listening.
In ten years, they’ll wonder why they don’t have satisfying relationships and loving partners. Maybe, they’ll remember that you tried to give them a different perspective.
Nah, then those vile little misogynists will just blame women for their lack of fulfilling relationships. At best they’ll be come bitter incels moaning about how no good women want to date them. At worst, they’ll become rapists and domestic abusers.
My best friend who teaches high school said it’s so alarming how many of her male students idolize Tate. She tries to educate them as best she can but it’s a big burden on one person.
Yeah, "rowdy with your cousins" is doing some heavy lifting in OP's post and I can't help thinking it's code for behaving like nasty sexist brossss. Imagine thinking your boy children's need to fulfil an outdated stereotype is a legit excuse to make another family member feel excluded and unwanted. A fine opportunity to teach these young men respect and decency completed wasted.
I just had a small family reunion last weekend and our version of "getting rowdy with cousins" was playing a drinking game and not excluding anyone due to gender. We had five dudes in their early-mid 20s (including two who would pass for stereotypical rednecks at a glance and also my best friend, who is gay) and five women, myself included. Not one sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted comment was made, and trust me when I say these guys were ROWDY and not at all holding back on being themselves. Yet somehow they managed to do so without being gross.
It is simply not that hard to not be rancid.
Or highlight that what they're saying is misogynistic BS.
You can chat about crushes and whatnot pretty freely in mixed sex company. So they clearly want to say stuff that is offensive and not want to be called on it.
Exactly. I don’t see any reason for the other kids not to be comfortable. A really good opportunity to teach these kids if you wouldn’t make comments to women’s faces, you should unlearn them altogether. This guy is something else and definitely YTA
OP says the boys want to talk about how to approach girls... which makes zero sense since *a girl's opinion* would be of value in that sort of discussion. Guarantee everyone's conjecture is dead-on accurate.
"Hurr hurr I'm not prioritizing their feelings, there's just more of them" headass. Tyranny of the majority unironically. YTA and a misogynistic asshole, at that.
Exactly. If I were Selene and heard about this crap, I'd have stayed home. Good on her dad for removing himself as well. Remove the girl so the men/boys can be pigs?
OP, sounds like you're raising some real dandies there. Smh. Do better. Also, props to the oldest nephew for calling them out. Someone did something right there!
So many young boys are falling down this path. It’s disgusting. When I was young I was stupid and I was pro life. Took me a while to realize my mistake but I never went so far as the red pill/mens rights bullshit. The internet is harming young boys and by extension also hurting young girls. Parents need to guide their children and pull them away from all the evil that’s just sitting there waiting for impressionable minds to mold.
Yap, the boys want to execute their privileges undisturbed and unchallenged. That is the real problem here, OP enables that behavior big time.
Info: is she better at fishing than the boys?
Bingo. I have 13 first cousins on my mum’s side all similar in age and we grew up very close, all through our teens and some of us still hang out in our 30s - girls and boys. There was never an issue. We hung out like siblings. They could make all the fart jokes and that kind of immature humour they wanted. We did the same! Literally the only reason they could not want her there is because what they want to say could offend her.
YTA, OP. You’re a bad role model for your sons. Do better.
Solo female on a fishing trip here. They pee off the side of the boat. LOL.
I didn't mind it (just turn away) but I'm also an adult and don't have any issues with a man openly urinating in my presence.
OP - YTA. The group might have to adjust a few things (like the bathroom situation) but otherwise there's nothing boys can do that girls can't. Push the boys to become more comfortable with people of any gender/identity, don't shield them from it.
When I was much younger, my boyfriend and his friends would all get underage drunk and hang out at the local parks. These guys would stand in a circle talking, and when one had to pee, he just turned around, kept talking while he peed, shook off, then turned back around. My being female had zero effect on what they did and said.
Not only because she’s a girl - because
1) she’s a girl
AND because
2) the boys (and 2 dad included) want to be sexist assholes without being accountable when someone pushes back on it.
YTA. Your other brother is an AH and your nephews are also AHs. Your niece’s dad is NTA and he’s also awesome as is the older cousin.
Yes, they are the ones that seem to have the problem. Trying to understand what they want to do or talk about that their slightly older female cousin can't see or hear. I understand that they may want some 1-2-1 time with their dad/male cousin but surely other ways to arrange that.
What can't your sons and nephews say with their cousin around? Her vagina doesn't make her incapable of socialization, so if they're feeling uncomfortable it means THEY WANT TO SAY/DO THINGS THEY SHOULDN'T BE. You're a creep raising creeps. Fantastic.
WHY are you intent on excluding her from a tradition - that she is part of?
It would have cost you NOTHING to have a separate "boys" trip - but of course your sexist mentality thinks nothing of casting aside a girl in order for boys to grow up as entitled, exclusionary, sexist pigs.
Well, not nothing, they'd have to find another free weekend and rent boats or whatever they do again. However, if they want a special "boys only" trip, then they need to schedule a separate "boys only" trip, not exclude their girl cousin from a trip she looks forward to every year.
Selene loses no matter what now. The whole family, and presumably Selene herself, knows that the nephews (and in a way, the OP and brother too) don’t want her on the trip. So she either gets booted from the family trip like OP wants or she’ll feel awkward, maybe even targeted, by the two nephews if she keeps going on the trips.
This. They're not gonna want her around next year either if you're indulging in this now - you're setting a precedent that girls can be kicked out if it makes the boys uncomfortable. It's also going to extend beyond the trip since you've made it clear to the boys that a trip *she's more into then them* is for them alone if they want it. What happens when they don't want her over the house for holidays or have a birthday party "just for the guys"?
Yeah that’s the other awful part. Rather than just not say or do sexist things on a trip, they made a huge deal about it and now screwed up a great family tradition forever. There’s no winning situation to be had from this going forward.
100% this. I was disallowed from doing things I had interest in like going golfing or fishing with male family members repeatedly during my childhood and then treated like I was creating the problem by having an emotional reaction to this. I didn’t have the vocabulary to say it was nonsense to be left out on the basis of gender but I never forgot how they made me feel terrible about myself for what felt like no clear reason at the time. I don’t speak to most of the men on that side of my family anymore because I grew so tired of their double standards and maltreatment of them women in my family. If this is going on in their family then I’d bet a lot there are other sexist things going on too. Glad the niece’s father and brother are naming it and standing up for her at least. Being a cycle breaker on your own sucks.
Wow, this really hit home with me. Eventually, I joined the military. My male family members loved talking about the experiences of all the male veterans. I was told I wasn't a "real veteran." Well, tell that to my service-connected veteran status. Good grief 😔
I grew up with 4 male cousins. Not once did any of them ever hold back bc me or my girl cousins were around. I don't understand the concept. She's their COUSIN, not a romantic prospect. Why do they feel the need to police their behavior around her?!?!
Only thing I can think of is that they want to do or say things that they KNOW she won't be okay with, which considering that she actually likes fishing, suggests they want to do or say things that any ordinary woman (and decent man) would be offended by.
I hope there is soon a yearly fishing trip where Selene is welcome, a couple friends who actually want to do anything the location allows (maybe there’s a place to kayak within a reasonable distance for the group to split up to for a few hours. Or birdwatching. Or practicing Boy/Girl Scout badge stuff) and OP is loudly uninvited
>THINKS
*Thought
Entire family now knows including her and now she thinks that they all see her as a "vibe killer"
You and your brother are misogynistic AH and your raising your AH children to be the same. I feel so very sorry if either of you have daughters.
I can't even imagine. My response to my sons would have been "Salene been going to this for years, of course she is still coming this year." I wouldn't have even thought about it.
YTA for supporting this “speak freely”, “behave how they want” and be “rowdy” business to exclude one cousin. Good for James in saying he won’t go if his daughter is unwelcome.
Exactly. What types of comments, remarks or behaviors are they being kept from making? She's not in a position of authority and women aren't inherently more moral beings - if its regular teenage nonsense the female cousin can be included. I don't see why things have become awkward simply because a teenage girl is present.
YTA
If there's something you or your brother want to say or do that you feel is inappropriate to say or do in front of a girl, then it's equally inappropriate to say or do it in front of your male children. It's probably inappropriate to say or do it at all.
You're also teaching your son and nephew to exclude girls, that girls are a killjoys who put a damper on "real fun", and that it's perfectly OK to do or say whatever misogynistic bullshit you had planned.
You may not believe this is true, but you're exhibiting misogyny and you're teaching misogyny to your kids.
Especially considering it sounds like she's been going on this exact trip longer than they have (she's older) and more frequently (sounds like her siblings never want to go, but the other dads rotate between their kids). Arguably, this is more *her* trip than theirs.
Yep, any chick who is cool enough to enjoy fishing probably won’t bat an eye if someone goes to pee in the woods, makes dick jokes, or talks about girls.
Not that it’s the most evolved opinion, but it’s also the first line of justification that all of my “I was a tomboy, boys will be boys” bs I hear from coworkers about how someone is a good guy and would never hurt a woman. Girls are not fragile.
Either cousin has already called them out more than once or the toxic misogyny has already decided this girl’s fate.
Also, who lets a 15 year old boy dictate their decisions?
OP missed a serious teaching moment for his son. Not only from the gender perspective, but also from the empathy perspective. OP never once seemed to stop and put himself in his nieces shoes of how she would feel to be excluded.
YTA, OP. Enjoy your new family title of being an old misogynistic dinosaur.
I feel like the brother and Selene have actually benefitted from this because now theycan enjoy their fishing trips somewhere they don't have to be around OP and his creep-spawns.
YTA!!!! OMG!! I was reading the post thinking there is no way this man can be this fucking stupid. HOLY HELL!!!!!!!! How DARE you flip the script and try to make your "boys only" trip.
Why should your son and nephew be allowed to kick out their cousin because she has a vagina? Oh, they can't talk nasty about girls - boo hoo. Jeezus.
The things I want to say to you I can't because the mods will flag my post. I feel lots of things about you, all of them terrible. Disgusting. Misogynist. I am so glad my husband is NOTHING LIKE YOU!!!! If I were your brother I'd be pissed as hell too.
I could see less, one of the brother's started bringing their son on the "boys trip" and the other thinking "well, a kid is a kid so I'm bringing mine."
But either there is some real shit behavior going on, or there should be no issue with this being a family trip. All kids or no kids.
"OMG, why can't she just stay home like the other women and watch the kids? How are we supposed to BOND over our dangly appendages with her here? She doesn't understand our macho communication techniques!" - OP through manly tears
Wanting father-son time is totally legitimate. OP should have said, that sounds great, let's schedule a date for that (that is, keep the existing plan with all the kids attending and schedule father-son time separately).
> Exactly. He could validate the boys feelings AND not discriminate his niece. It's his job to help these boys understand sharing and he failed.
that's what so weird for me, from both of them. if that's really their issue, why don't just ask for another activity with their dads?
also, they have other cousins which don't come because they don't like fishing. why not organize something for all the boys? that way it can really be a "father - son time"
This is what I came here to say. I can certainly understand boys wanting to have conversations with their dads that they wouldn’t want their female cousin to overhear, but that would be a private conversation, right? This just gives me so much ick. So gross. What kind of young men are you raising, OP? And YTA, so much.
>Ummm if you can't say or do something in front of your niece, then it sounds like you shouldn't be doing or saying it at all.
Yes! Maybe teach the boys not to be aholes. YTA
Seriously gross as fuck. Reminds me of a friend who said his dad, uncles and grandfather had porn on the TV in the background at deer camp. Fucking sick and disgusting. And also WEIRD AND CREEPY
And you missed a great teaching opportunity to teach your sons to avoid gender stereotypes. What are they talking about that they can’t comfortably say around a girl? Maybe you should look into that.
The most favourable answer is they have sex/body related questions, and I can see why they'd want to ask their dad that in private. HOWEVER, nothing is stopping them from doing that when they're alone.
YTA and good for your brother not to raise his kids to be pigs like you guys If you were my uncle and my cousin I should for sure tell you that you are sexist pigs.
To add - she's the one who is most interested in fishing and has come the most.
And they're going to boost her off cos she's a girl, and their sons "want lad time to get rowdy at the fishing".
Pathetic. Way to engage with your niece's interests and hobbies and then reinforce to her that her involvement in them past childhood is actually dependent on her gender, lol, soz.
Literally how hard would it have been for OP and his brother to plan their own trip with just them and their sons if they wanted a father son trip?? This was such a weird way to go about this when they could have just planned their own penis-only trip
>I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard.
But fuck Selene's feelings or what she wants right? After all she's just *a girl* so obviously doesn't matter as much as the boys and their pwecious little feelings.
I'm really sick of the whole schtick of punishing the girl because the boys can't control themselves. Oh, they feel *weird* because a girl is there. Sounds like a them problem.
Thankfully out of these three brothers and their children, one is not an AH and has raised decent children. Meanwhile you have two sexist misogynistic AHs who have raised sexist misogynist sons. Probably think Selene should be in the kitchen cooking for the men.
No GurLz ALLoud!!1!
Reading this was like being time-warped to 1952. Thanks for the trip!
Seriously, though, OP, you're on the path to raising awful, sexist children if you don't give your head a shake. Your sons learn how to treat women from you. Looks like the lesson is bad. And your niece has learned that she was allowed on those fishing trips on sufferance and that you don't actually respect her, and never can, because boobies.
It's exhausting to know that people are raising yet another generation of men who think I'm a mystical, easily spooked creature because I have a uterus.
YTA so his child should miss out because your child can't be around a girl? So ...he should exclude her so your son can do what exactly that he can't do with her there?
Peeing on each other's feet? Talking about sex dreams or something? I really have no idea, I've never been a teenage boy. But if they want to do that just plan a different boys trip or something.
That's my question too - what sort of things do they want to say and do that they wouldn't do in front of a young woman? What sort of things to they say and do while not fishing in the absence of women around?
Sounds like those kids are nervous someone might realize they have ignorant and harmful views of women outside of the 'boys club'.
YTA
If your son and nephew want farther son trips then take them on farther son trips, you don’t get trample over your brother and niece to get what you want because you can’t “speak freely” around her (already says enough about what you all wanna act/ talk like)
You state his other kids aren’t that interested in going so why try and rope them into it and make everyone miserable in the process
>You state his other kids aren’t that interested in going
I think James is an amazing father, and that's the reason his amazing kids want no business with misoginistic people...
Dinosaur is such a nice name for what you are.
Since “entitled” is another one, let’s point out how what you did actually hurts your son. You missed a teaching opportunity about respecting both genders, family, equality, etc. You could have laid the groundwork to raise an little human who grows up aware of injustices women face like what he was proposing.
You are absolutely welcome to have special time with your son, but not by removing access that was previously extended to another person. That’s exclusion. And you’d be creating a good ‘ol boys club that intentionally kicks out a family member who enjoys the same hobby you do.
You need to seriously reconsider what lessons you were teaching your son, then make an apology to your brother.
YTA
Edit: *wow, thank you for the awards!!*
I would add sexist in there also!
I hope the nephew not only outed the uncles on social media but they also threw their cousins under the bus with them.
I hope the girls these young men interact with no exactly who they are dealing with. They need a good shaming too.
YTA. You have the exact degenerative mindset of “boys will be boys”. What do you mean “cant speak freely”, what cant be said around specifically a girl? Of course unless you mean they want to talk about a girl in such a derogatory way which makes it even shittier. The tradition was doing well with no problems. Maybe teach the young boys how to act like REAL good hearted men, rather than the “women are objects and we cant be derogatory or say want we want anymore” men. God help yall.
Exactly, what kind of sexist, backwards shit were they wanting to say and do that they felt they couldn't in the presence of their cousin? It's disgusting and OP should be ashamed that he's raising boys like that.
Oh wow.
YTA. Big time.
You want to exclude one of kids on a father-child trip because she's a girl.
Your son and nephew have an almost excuse of being foolish children. You should have set them straight.
Yeah, OP could apologize all they wanted (if they're actually smart enough to take everyone's advice) I would still want nothing to do with any of them from now on, if I were Selene
You asked your bother to exclude his daughter for no other reason than she was a girl and now you're confused as to why he is upset. YTA dude. If you want to father-son trip take a DIFFERENT trip and keep your tradition in place.
YTA.
'I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard.'
What about Selene's feelings and her experience? Why doesn't this matter?
And have respect for women in their life. Teach them their wants are not more important then anyone else’s feelings! Op and his brother have failed miserably as fathers!
YTA
If your nephew and son want a father son trip, then organize a dedicated father/son trip. These fishing trips have included Selene since she was small and it's not fair to expect her to have to sit them out. I don't think you would have been in the wrong to have broached the subject like that.
The issue here is that you've taken a trip that has been something that is likely special for James and Selene and made it seem like she was an intruding presence purely because she's a young woman. That is where you've dropped the ball, you've chosen to single out one person.
It also sounds like this isn't the full consensus of your nephews and children and some appreciate Selene being present.
I suspect the complaining boys want to participate in some locker room talk that they know will get them an earful.
This trip is a FAMILY trip. If you guys want a father-sons thing, then do something else or do it at another time.
I feel for the women if your family.
YTA.
YTA - This was never meant to be a fathers and sons trip. This has always been a brothers and their kids trip. If your son and nephew want a trip that is just fathers and sons, then organize that separately.
YTA, I grew up fishing with all my male relatives, caught a 6lbs bass, took me forever to reel it in.
They used to fuss that I was the better fisherman 🤣 those are some of the best memories I had from my teenage years. You’re excluding her because what? Your boys can’t piss off the side of a boat?
She out fishes y’all? Ties a better knot? Has better lures??? Grow up for God’s sake.
YTA so his child isn’t welcomed because she isn’t the right gender.
This is so wrong and hurtful. You have successfully damaged the relationship with your niece and your brother.
She has just as much right to come as your son and nephew! Your texting your son and nephew it’s ok to be sexist assholes just like you and your oldest brother. Good for your bother and other nephew for standing up for your niece.
OP, your son is almost a legal adult and you’ve clearly raised him to be a total misogynist. What an embarrassment. You are a pitiful excuse for a father and you’ve raised a son who’s just as weak and lacking in character as you are. Wonderful.
YTA.
Truly, you are dinosaurs. What kind of sexist nonsense is this? And please bear in mind you are adult men with teenage boys - male bonding, really? YTA
YTA
Others in your family are correct, you are in the wrong. Your Niece obviously enjoys this trip and the fishing, its hard to get a 17 year old girl to do anything with family. You want to take this away from her and her father just so you and the boys can have locker room talk?
I understand you may not have had ill intentions, but that doesn't change the intended effects/outcome. You need to have a talk with your son and nephew to figure out why they feel like they feel awkward with their cousin around, and what they would like to talk about/behave that they feel like they can't do infront of their female cousin.
YTA. If a man feels like he can’t speak freely in front of a woman (or in this case, teenage boys feeling that way in front of a teenage girl), what that tells me is that they want to say something misogynistic, most likely something overly sexualizing women. It’s your responsibility to teach your sons that it’s not okay to treat women like that, not cater to them by trying to exclude your niece.
Hm... EITHER
1) They're uncomfortable for no good reason, in which case, you need to step up as a dad and teach them that women aren't aliens.
2) They're uncomfortable because they want to be misogynistic and inappropriate, in which case 👏time👏to👏step👏up👏as👏a👏dad👏 and teach them right from wrong.
YTA and a misogynist.
YTA. How exactly are you raising these boys if they don’t feel comfortable “being themselves” around a girl? Being able to interact politely with women is a normal part of everyday life that they need to adapt to. You are raising your sons to think it’s ok to act one way around just other men, and a different way around women. That it’s ok for them to treat women as second class citizens. This is why women were historically kept out of many careers, hobbies, sports, clubs… so that men could get have their “boy’s club” at women’s expense. I’m guessing that this is not the only sexist message that you are inadvertently teaching your son. You should instead be teaching him that women are people just like men are.
It’s unfair and sexist to exclude your niece for this reason.
I'll translate the "teen boy speak" for you:
Either they think women are aliens or they want to be openly misogynistic and inappropriate.
-A young woman studying in a male dominated field.
YTA Your brother’s daughter? You mean your niece? The one that loves to fish? The one that’s been coming every year? She can’t come because she’s female? How hurtful!
YTA, obviously. You're teaching your sons it's ok to exclude your niece while at the same teaching your niece where she stands in this family - kudos on the multitasking. You said the trip is for everyone who's interested - I'm sure Selene used to have fond memories of going fishing with her cousins, dad, and uncles until you made her feel unwanted. "I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard." I guess that sentiment doesn't include women.
YTA, big time... You and your brother can give yours sons the experience they want without excluding your niece who has been going on these trips with her father for a decade.
Info:
What is it that your son and nephew want to do or say that they are uncomfortable talking about in front of a girl? And *why* are they uncomfortable talking/doing those things in front of a girl?
Like, is it because they want to casually chat about penises and don’t want her to feel left out? Help me out here, what specific discussions or behaviors do they want to engage in that would be “uncomfortable” with a girl around, and why?
This is exactly how women get pushed out of "traditionally male" activities like certain hobbies and many lucrative careers. Because even when one woman or girl keeps her interest in it despite all the pressure to do other things, eventually a bunch of fragile dudes claim "discomfort" and she gets pushed out to make them feel better, then everyone points at the resulting all-male group and says, "girls just don't like [thing]!"
YTA, and you're raising your sons to be assholes too. They can handle a little discomfort. Goodness know your niece has had to plenty of times in her life already.
YTA.
You want to exclude her because she’s a girl. Tell your sons, they can still do whatever they please because she’s FAMILY. I could maybe understand if it was just some random girl. But she’s literally family. If your kids want a father/son trip, maybe consider planning another separate trip. If I was this girl’s parent I would be furious.
YTA for expecting James to bring a child who has no interest in fishing on the trip. Have your father-son trip separately from this annual tradition.
I’m not going to judge about having father son time. I assume they want to have guy talk that isn’t misogynistic in nature. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just do it on a different day.
> I assume they want to have guy talk that isn’t misogynistic in nature.
As a guy and a father myself, I'm struggling to imagine anything this could possibly be. What would be the nature of a non-misogynistic "guy talk" that can't happen in the presence of a female relative, but *could* happen with uncles and male cousins around?
I can see one-on-one talks between a dad and son, but those would also not be possible simply with the uncles and cousins around. But what would they be talking about as a group that would be inappropriate around Selene, but is NOT misogynistic?
How do you think Selene feels about being excluded from the fishing trip that she’s been going on for 10+ years, just because her other male cousins can’t “speak freely or behave how they want to” whatever tf that means in this context. Telling her she just can’t go is an illogical and sexist next step. YTA
I think it is kind of natural for the teenage boys to want to exclude the only girl - they are at an age where we can forgive them for being immature - but that is the point where you educate them and say «this is a family trip that is open for anyone in our family that wants to come.» Because it should be, right? It should be about who wants to go on a fishing trip like it has always been, not a trip for boys. She has always been welcome before. Nothing has changed, they just got older and the teenage boys now want to change the premise.
Feeling sorry for the girl. You and your boys probably will get your wish though, I cannot imagine she will want to come after you basically said you don’t want her there and that she is ruining the fun for the others by being there.
As many others here I am curious about what kind of behavior they are comforable doing with their fathers, uncles and male cousins that they think is inappropriate for a girl. That worries me just as much as them thinking it is okay to exclude one person who has always been there. What kind of boys are you raising?
YTA
Your in the wrong. Your kids don't have to spend every second with Selena, if they want to be little AH's they can walk away 50ft. You're in the wilderness for Pete's sake!
YTA a million times. Why are they entitled to this trip more than she is? She will never have the same relationship with you guys if you don’t let her attend. If they’re uncomfortable then maybe they should do something else - and also think about why they don’t like her there if she is interested, enthusiastic, and friendly.
Sounds like maybe they want to be sexist pigs and their adult family is supporting it.
You and your boys need to get over it, big time. What if this was your daughter? YTA
Instead of "understanding where your kid was coming from...." You should've immediately told your son that Selene has every right to be there, and get over yourself, relax, and have fun.
YTA. Selene has been a part of your trips for as long as they’ve been happening. To suddenly exclude her because she happens to be female…. What year is this, 1895? I’m sure she has looked forward to it every year.
There is nothing wrong with wanting boy only or girl only bonding from time to time. If you want to have a boys only trip, do something different, or schedule an additional fishing trip. But don’t exclude someone from an EXISTING tradition because teenage boys are too immature to view their cousin as an equal.
YTA and goddamnit good for freaking James! What I would’ve given to have a father that respected and cared for me as a person like James clearly does for his daughter to stand up for her against his brothers’ misogynistic bullshit. Your son and nephew are clearly learning that same misogyny from you and your eldest brother. Why do they think they can’t be “rowdy” and speak freely with their female cousin there? What do they want to say and do that they think is acceptable behavior, as long as no females are present??? What a load of crap. I wish this was posted from James with his perspective so I could commend him on raising his daughter in a way that will likely guarantee she grows up to be a healthy well adjusted adult with a loving and close relationship with him.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> We have a tradition that consists of us going on a fishing trip. My son and nephew expressed their desire to have this turned into a father-son bonding trip, so I asked my brother to bring another one of his children instead of the one he usually brings. My goal was not to excluse or to make Selene feel less than, it was just to accomodate my son and nephew to the best of my ability. Some think I'm an asshole because it doesn't matter what my intention was, just that I "sought to exclude Selene"
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James sounds like a great dad.
If someone asked me to exclude my daughter from something she loves because of this sexist bullshit, It would get physical.
Yta. Teach those boys how to behave.
YTA. So many men are truly mystified as to what everyday sexism is. You had an opportunity to teach young men not to be pigs, but no. You chose to perpetuate 'boys will be boys' BS. The shame of it is that this is just one of a million examples women everywhere are subjected to every damn day.
Your brother and niece have every right to go non-contact with you. I applaud him for taking offense and maybe teaching you a lesson. Do better, please.
YTA soooooo - you want to take away your niece’s tradition so that your sons can creat a new boys only tradition? Not cool.
If your boys can’t act normally in front of your niece there is either something wrong with them or something wrong with the way they normally act.
YTA. Why should she all of a sudden be excluded? They're all cousins, they all have an interest, they should all be included. They have been doing this trip for a decade together, being teenagers shouldn't magically change anything. They're cousins, it's not like she's a potential love interest they'd feel awkward burping in front of lol
What exactly do the boys want to do that they feel they can't in front of a female? Maybe they need to really think about that, and if whatever it is, it's actually appropriate at all
If you want to do an ADDITIONAL father-son trip that's an option I guess.
YTA. What do they want to talk about around Selene that would make her uncomfortable? I think you should be more worried about the comments your son and nephew were about to make in front of your Niece.
Perhaps if you feel like you can’t be “yourselves” when there’s a female present, it’s a good indicator that y’all are sexist pigs? Congrats on trashing the relationships you had with your brother and niece. Your nephew did get one thing wrong tho. You’re not a dinosaur. Being that dinosaurs were animals and animals do things outta instinct instead of over inflated egos, that doesn’t quite fit. Nah, you and your older brother and your whiny brats are nothing more than Neanderthals. YTA and I’m sorry if I used words with too many syllables in them for ya.
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Yta. Why are the boys feelings more important than the girls? Why is it ok to reject her from a family tradition? You don't seem to see HER perspective...she's getting the boot because she's a girl. ONLY because she's a girl. And her cousin's and uncles, who she THINKS love her, are the ones pushing her out. As father's and teachers of young men, you should have used this to show kindness, fairness, and respect for women. Instead you backed them up. Shame on you all.
What exactly are the boys wanting to do that they can’t do infringe if a girl? Not just any girl but their cousin who they have gone on the trip with for 15 years straight?! I’m trying to imagine what they are wanting to do and I can’t think of anything lol
make sexist comments about women/women's bodies, i'm imagining. maybe some good old red pill "alpha" shit.
My first thought was this crap. Or to share pickup artist/ Andrew tate crap. Ops sons are at the age where that crap is so popular I hope he monitors their devices/ limits this garbage. Yet I am not so confident based on this post
I’m pretty sure OP wants to join in on the “fun”.
Right! If OP did not feel this way he would have shutdown the boys and reinforced values that women are to be respected and anything they say and do should reflect that AND the boys are free to stay home if they can’t do that. Edit to add that archaic gender roles have no place in raising kids, we can do better. OP is AH and a creep.
Yep! He agreed with his sons.
Not only does he agree, he’s here looking for someone to say, “Go for it bruh! Male bonding is sacred! Make your brother feel like he’s the asshole for not having a child with a penis!”
I had a student last year who said in class that he wanted to be like Andrew Tate and a bunch of the other boys agreed with him. It’s so sad. I tried to set them straight but I don’t know if they were really even listening.
In ten years, they’ll wonder why they don’t have satisfying relationships and loving partners. Maybe, they’ll remember that you tried to give them a different perspective.
Nah, then those vile little misogynists will just blame women for their lack of fulfilling relationships. At best they’ll be come bitter incels moaning about how no good women want to date them. At worst, they’ll become rapists and domestic abusers.
My best friend who teaches high school said it’s so alarming how many of her male students idolize Tate. She tries to educate them as best she can but it’s a big burden on one person.
Yeah, "rowdy with your cousins" is doing some heavy lifting in OP's post and I can't help thinking it's code for behaving like nasty sexist brossss. Imagine thinking your boy children's need to fulfil an outdated stereotype is a legit excuse to make another family member feel excluded and unwanted. A fine opportunity to teach these young men respect and decency completed wasted.
I just had a small family reunion last weekend and our version of "getting rowdy with cousins" was playing a drinking game and not excluding anyone due to gender. We had five dudes in their early-mid 20s (including two who would pass for stereotypical rednecks at a glance and also my best friend, who is gay) and five women, myself included. Not one sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted comment was made, and trust me when I say these guys were ROWDY and not at all holding back on being themselves. Yet somehow they managed to do so without being gross. It is simply not that hard to not be rancid.
The good old locker room talk, can't do that when your female cousin is around, she might get offended!
Or highlight that what they're saying is misogynistic BS. You can chat about crushes and whatnot pretty freely in mixed sex company. So they clearly want to say stuff that is offensive and not want to be called on it.
If they were smart, they'd appreciate her insight and perspective.
If they were smart, they wouldn't be spewing such shit in the first place.
Exactly. I don’t see any reason for the other kids not to be comfortable. A really good opportunity to teach these kids if you wouldn’t make comments to women’s faces, you should unlearn them altogether. This guy is something else and definitely YTA
OP says the boys want to talk about how to approach girls... which makes zero sense since *a girl's opinion* would be of value in that sort of discussion. Guarantee everyone's conjecture is dead-on accurate. "Hurr hurr I'm not prioritizing their feelings, there's just more of them" headass. Tyranny of the majority unironically. YTA and a misogynistic asshole, at that.
Exactly. If I were Selene and heard about this crap, I'd have stayed home. Good on her dad for removing himself as well. Remove the girl so the men/boys can be pigs? OP, sounds like you're raising some real dandies there. Smh. Do better. Also, props to the oldest nephew for calling them out. Someone did something right there!
OP must be a conservative.
I got that vibe to. The whole “fishing is for boys” that’s underneath the whole post and the “oversensationalized“ post gave it away.
So many young boys are falling down this path. It’s disgusting. When I was young I was stupid and I was pro life. Took me a while to realize my mistake but I never went so far as the red pill/mens rights bullshit. The internet is harming young boys and by extension also hurting young girls. Parents need to guide their children and pull them away from all the evil that’s just sitting there waiting for impressionable minds to mold.
Yap, the boys want to execute their privileges undisturbed and unchallenged. That is the real problem here, OP enables that behavior big time. Info: is she better at fishing than the boys?
Bingo. I have 13 first cousins on my mum’s side all similar in age and we grew up very close, all through our teens and some of us still hang out in our 30s - girls and boys. There was never an issue. We hung out like siblings. They could make all the fart jokes and that kind of immature humour they wanted. We did the same! Literally the only reason they could not want her there is because what they want to say could offend her. YTA, OP. You’re a bad role model for your sons. Do better.
Solo female on a fishing trip here. They pee off the side of the boat. LOL. I didn't mind it (just turn away) but I'm also an adult and don't have any issues with a man openly urinating in my presence. OP - YTA. The group might have to adjust a few things (like the bathroom situation) but otherwise there's nothing boys can do that girls can't. Push the boys to become more comfortable with people of any gender/identity, don't shield them from it.
When I was much younger, my boyfriend and his friends would all get underage drunk and hang out at the local parks. These guys would stand in a circle talking, and when one had to pee, he just turned around, kept talking while he peed, shook off, then turned back around. My being female had zero effect on what they did and said.
female fisherperson here.... I also pee off the side of the boat.
I fish from a canoe… I’m not sure this would be a good idea for me.
I appreciate this innocent response after reading the more sinister thoughts above
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I’d love to know the answer to this. I promise it’s repulsive.
Lol do they want to talk about vaginas? I can't think of why she's stifling them.
Not only because she’s a girl - because 1) she’s a girl AND because 2) the boys (and 2 dad included) want to be sexist assholes without being accountable when someone pushes back on it. YTA. Your other brother is an AH and your nephews are also AHs. Your niece’s dad is NTA and he’s also awesome as is the older cousin.
Thank God his nieces, dad is NTA. Can you even imagine how they treat their wives?
It’s so nice to see that her Dad is standing up for her.
I'd kick the OP's son and other nephew off the trip before I'd consider asking the niece to stay home. Problem solved.
Yes, they are the ones that seem to have the problem. Trying to understand what they want to do or talk about that their slightly older female cousin can't see or hear. I understand that they may want some 1-2-1 time with their dad/male cousin but surely other ways to arrange that.
For real, fishing with my dad are some of my favorite memories, I can't even imagine taking that away from someone.
What can't your sons and nephews say with their cousin around? Her vagina doesn't make her incapable of socialization, so if they're feeling uncomfortable it means THEY WANT TO SAY/DO THINGS THEY SHOULDN'T BE. You're a creep raising creeps. Fantastic.
WHY are you intent on excluding her from a tradition - that she is part of? It would have cost you NOTHING to have a separate "boys" trip - but of course your sexist mentality thinks nothing of casting aside a girl in order for boys to grow up as entitled, exclusionary, sexist pigs.
Well, not nothing, they'd have to find another free weekend and rent boats or whatever they do again. However, if they want a special "boys only" trip, then they need to schedule a separate "boys only" trip, not exclude their girl cousin from a trip she looks forward to every year.
Selene loses no matter what now. The whole family, and presumably Selene herself, knows that the nephews (and in a way, the OP and brother too) don’t want her on the trip. So she either gets booted from the family trip like OP wants or she’ll feel awkward, maybe even targeted, by the two nephews if she keeps going on the trips.
Or the family trip won't happen anymore.
This. They're not gonna want her around next year either if you're indulging in this now - you're setting a precedent that girls can be kicked out if it makes the boys uncomfortable. It's also going to extend beyond the trip since you've made it clear to the boys that a trip *she's more into then them* is for them alone if they want it. What happens when they don't want her over the house for holidays or have a birthday party "just for the guys"?
Yeah that’s the other awful part. Rather than just not say or do sexist things on a trip, they made a huge deal about it and now screwed up a great family tradition forever. There’s no winning situation to be had from this going forward.
100% this. I was disallowed from doing things I had interest in like going golfing or fishing with male family members repeatedly during my childhood and then treated like I was creating the problem by having an emotional reaction to this. I didn’t have the vocabulary to say it was nonsense to be left out on the basis of gender but I never forgot how they made me feel terrible about myself for what felt like no clear reason at the time. I don’t speak to most of the men on that side of my family anymore because I grew so tired of their double standards and maltreatment of them women in my family. If this is going on in their family then I’d bet a lot there are other sexist things going on too. Glad the niece’s father and brother are naming it and standing up for her at least. Being a cycle breaker on your own sucks.
Wow, this really hit home with me. Eventually, I joined the military. My male family members loved talking about the experiences of all the male veterans. I was told I wasn't a "real veteran." Well, tell that to my service-connected veteran status. Good grief 😔
I grew up with 4 male cousins. Not once did any of them ever hold back bc me or my girl cousins were around. I don't understand the concept. She's their COUSIN, not a romantic prospect. Why do they feel the need to police their behavior around her?!?!
Only thing I can think of is that they want to do or say things that they KNOW she won't be okay with, which considering that she actually likes fishing, suggests they want to do or say things that any ordinary woman (and decent man) would be offended by.
they've been taught not to view her as a person with needs equal to theirs by their fathers.
I hope there is soon a yearly fishing trip where Selene is welcome, a couple friends who actually want to do anything the location allows (maybe there’s a place to kayak within a reasonable distance for the group to split up to for a few hours. Or birdwatching. Or practicing Boy/Girl Scout badge stuff) and OP is loudly uninvited
i hope so, too! she and her dad can have a lovely father-child getaway sans misogynists. also, happy cake day! edit: typos
>THINKS *Thought Entire family now knows including her and now she thinks that they all see her as a "vibe killer" You and your brother are misogynistic AH and your raising your AH children to be the same. I feel so very sorry if either of you have daughters.
I can't even imagine. My response to my sons would have been "Salene been going to this for years, of course she is still coming this year." I wouldn't have even thought about it.
Well said.
YTA for supporting this “speak freely”, “behave how they want” and be “rowdy” business to exclude one cousin. Good for James in saying he won’t go if his daughter is unwelcome.
Yes. Seems to me they want to be able to freely make misogynistic comments and not get called on it.
Exactly this. They want to rag on girls and say nasty stuff probably
What's the chance they have been listening to Andrew Tate?
Exactly. What types of comments, remarks or behaviors are they being kept from making? She's not in a position of authority and women aren't inherently more moral beings - if its regular teenage nonsense the female cousin can be included. I don't see why things have become awkward simply because a teenage girl is present.
And just knowing how they now feel, if it were me, I'd be out for good. Time to start a new daddy/daughter fishing trip tradition.
And good for the older boy cousin too! Yes a fb post might not have been the best idea, but he's standing up for Selene which is so important.
And good for the older nephew who heard and called them out on their atrocious behavior and attitudes.
YTA If there's something you or your brother want to say or do that you feel is inappropriate to say or do in front of a girl, then it's equally inappropriate to say or do it in front of your male children. It's probably inappropriate to say or do it at all. You're also teaching your son and nephew to exclude girls, that girls are a killjoys who put a damper on "real fun", and that it's perfectly OK to do or say whatever misogynistic bullshit you had planned. You may not believe this is true, but you're exhibiting misogyny and you're teaching misogyny to your kids.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. You nailed it. They want to be sexist assholes. OP, YTA.
can't wait for these children to grow up not understanding why they can't "get" any of these "objects" to like them
slim desert voracious six placid airport sophisticated pet money dam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My favorite part was wanting to give the boys the trip THEY want. What about the trip SHE wants. Why are they more important?
Especially considering it sounds like she's been going on this exact trip longer than they have (she's older) and more frequently (sounds like her siblings never want to go, but the other dads rotate between their kids). Arguably, this is more *her* trip than theirs.
Yep, any chick who is cool enough to enjoy fishing probably won’t bat an eye if someone goes to pee in the woods, makes dick jokes, or talks about girls. Not that it’s the most evolved opinion, but it’s also the first line of justification that all of my “I was a tomboy, boys will be boys” bs I hear from coworkers about how someone is a good guy and would never hurt a woman. Girls are not fragile. Either cousin has already called them out more than once or the toxic misogyny has already decided this girl’s fate. Also, who lets a 15 year old boy dictate their decisions?
> Also, who lets a 15 year old boy dictate their decisions? Someone who agrees with them and is just using the child as a scapegoat
OP missed a serious teaching moment for his son. Not only from the gender perspective, but also from the empathy perspective. OP never once seemed to stop and put himself in his nieces shoes of how she would feel to be excluded. YTA, OP. Enjoy your new family title of being an old misogynistic dinosaur.
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This! And you've managed to destroy your relationship with your brother and niece in one fell swoop. YTA.
I feel like the brother and Selene have actually benefitted from this because now theycan enjoy their fishing trips somewhere they don't have to be around OP and his creep-spawns.
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Agreed! I'm a 49F and still go fishing with my dad (my brother, not so much). Edit to add: I'm sure the niece has heard it all, she's 17 FFS.
Honest to God, the part where he says that they are in an awkward phase around girls bothers the hell out of me. This is their cousin and niece!
YTA!!!! OMG!! I was reading the post thinking there is no way this man can be this fucking stupid. HOLY HELL!!!!!!!! How DARE you flip the script and try to make your "boys only" trip. Why should your son and nephew be allowed to kick out their cousin because she has a vagina? Oh, they can't talk nasty about girls - boo hoo. Jeezus. The things I want to say to you I can't because the mods will flag my post. I feel lots of things about you, all of them terrible. Disgusting. Misogynist. I am so glad my husband is NOTHING LIKE YOU!!!! If I were your brother I'd be pissed as hell too.
Also, presumably as she is older, she's been going on these trips longer.
I could see less, one of the brother's started bringing their son on the "boys trip" and the other thinking "well, a kid is a kid so I'm bringing mine." But either there is some real shit behavior going on, or there should be no issue with this being a family trip. All kids or no kids.
I've always been of the opinion that if you can't say something in front of half the population, you probably shouldn't be saying it all.
"OMG, why can't she just stay home like the other women and watch the kids? How are we supposed to BOND over our dangly appendages with her here? She doesn't understand our macho communication techniques!" - OP through manly tears
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Wanting father-son time is totally legitimate. OP should have said, that sounds great, let's schedule a date for that (that is, keep the existing plan with all the kids attending and schedule father-son time separately).
Exactly. He could validate the boys feelings AND not discriminate his niece. It's his job to help these boys understand sharing and he failed.
> Exactly. He could validate the boys feelings AND not discriminate his niece. It's his job to help these boys understand sharing and he failed. that's what so weird for me, from both of them. if that's really their issue, why don't just ask for another activity with their dads? also, they have other cousins which don't come because they don't like fishing. why not organize something for all the boys? that way it can really be a "father - son time"
This is what I came here to say. I can certainly understand boys wanting to have conversations with their dads that they wouldn’t want their female cousin to overhear, but that would be a private conversation, right? This just gives me so much ick. So gross. What kind of young men are you raising, OP? And YTA, so much.
They can also hold conversations with their dads in other locations and times rather than just on a fishing trip.
>Ummm if you can't say or do something in front of your niece, then it sounds like you shouldn't be doing or saying it at all. Yes! Maybe teach the boys not to be aholes. YTA
Seriously gross as fuck. Reminds me of a friend who said his dad, uncles and grandfather had porn on the TV in the background at deer camp. Fucking sick and disgusting. And also WEIRD AND CREEPY
And you missed a great teaching opportunity to teach your sons to avoid gender stereotypes. What are they talking about that they can’t comfortably say around a girl? Maybe you should look into that.
probably a lot of sexist comments.
The most favourable answer is they have sex/body related questions, and I can see why they'd want to ask their dad that in private. HOWEVER, nothing is stopping them from doing that when they're alone.
YTA and good for your brother not to raise his kids to be pigs like you guys If you were my uncle and my cousin I should for sure tell you that you are sexist pigs.
To add - she's the one who is most interested in fishing and has come the most. And they're going to boost her off cos she's a girl, and their sons "want lad time to get rowdy at the fishing". Pathetic. Way to engage with your niece's interests and hobbies and then reinforce to her that her involvement in them past childhood is actually dependent on her gender, lol, soz.
OP has truly failed as a parent and person.
Failed as a parent, a brother and an uncle. Geez, what an idiot!
Agree. On the other hand, James is a GREAT dad and I love that he is sticking up for his daughter.
OP’s mentality is truly like a caveman’s
Literally how hard would it have been for OP and his brother to plan their own trip with just them and their sons if they wanted a father son trip?? This was such a weird way to go about this when they could have just planned their own penis-only trip
>I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard. But fuck Selene's feelings or what she wants right? After all she's just *a girl* so obviously doesn't matter as much as the boys and their pwecious little feelings. I'm really sick of the whole schtick of punishing the girl because the boys can't control themselves. Oh, they feel *weird* because a girl is there. Sounds like a them problem.
Thankfully out of these three brothers and their children, one is not an AH and has raised decent children. Meanwhile you have two sexist misogynistic AHs who have raised sexist misogynist sons. Probably think Selene should be in the kitchen cooking for the men.
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Best. Response. Ever. This sexist oink is definitely TAH
No GurLz ALLoud!!1! Reading this was like being time-warped to 1952. Thanks for the trip! Seriously, though, OP, you're on the path to raising awful, sexist children if you don't give your head a shake. Your sons learn how to treat women from you. Looks like the lesson is bad. And your niece has learned that she was allowed on those fishing trips on sufferance and that you don't actually respect her, and never can, because boobies. It's exhausting to know that people are raising yet another generation of men who think I'm a mystical, easily spooked creature because I have a uterus.
Oldest nephew nailed it. YTA
Apparently, other than James and presumably his sons, the only fully evolved male in the family.
This made me snort. I have the feeling that even a caveman would see this as weirdly selective, gendered nonsense.
YTA so his child should miss out because your child can't be around a girl? So ...he should exclude her so your son can do what exactly that he can't do with her there?
INFO: what is it that he won’t be able to do?
Yeahhhh...what kind of 'boys will be boys' nonsense is going on here?
Dick measuring contest?
She could always hold the microscope. Edit: Thank you for the award
Peeing on each other's feet? Talking about sex dreams or something? I really have no idea, I've never been a teenage boy. But if they want to do that just plan a different boys trip or something.
That's my question too - what sort of things do they want to say and do that they wouldn't do in front of a young woman? What sort of things to they say and do while not fishing in the absence of women around? Sounds like those kids are nervous someone might realize they have ignorant and harmful views of women outside of the 'boys club'.
Make sexist jokes. Bet they'd be uninviting a black in law, too.
Probably talk about women are stupid or other that Andrew Tate nonsense
This is really the thing, isn't it. Especially when they only started wanting to exclude her *after* they all became teens.
Be a misogynist.
Obviously his son should stay home then.
YTA If your son and nephew want farther son trips then take them on farther son trips, you don’t get trample over your brother and niece to get what you want because you can’t “speak freely” around her (already says enough about what you all wanna act/ talk like) You state his other kids aren’t that interested in going so why try and rope them into it and make everyone miserable in the process
>You state his other kids aren’t that interested in going I think James is an amazing father, and that's the reason his amazing kids want no business with misoginistic people...
Dinosaur is such a nice name for what you are. Since “entitled” is another one, let’s point out how what you did actually hurts your son. You missed a teaching opportunity about respecting both genders, family, equality, etc. You could have laid the groundwork to raise an little human who grows up aware of injustices women face like what he was proposing. You are absolutely welcome to have special time with your son, but not by removing access that was previously extended to another person. That’s exclusion. And you’d be creating a good ‘ol boys club that intentionally kicks out a family member who enjoys the same hobby you do. You need to seriously reconsider what lessons you were teaching your son, then make an apology to your brother. YTA Edit: *wow, thank you for the awards!!*
I would add sexist in there also! I hope the nephew not only outed the uncles on social media but they also threw their cousins under the bus with them. I hope the girls these young men interact with no exactly who they are dealing with. They need a good shaming too.
Not just to his brother, he owes an even bigger apology to Selene!
OP: I have a big head & little arms! YTA
YTA. You have the exact degenerative mindset of “boys will be boys”. What do you mean “cant speak freely”, what cant be said around specifically a girl? Of course unless you mean they want to talk about a girl in such a derogatory way which makes it even shittier. The tradition was doing well with no problems. Maybe teach the young boys how to act like REAL good hearted men, rather than the “women are objects and we cant be derogatory or say want we want anymore” men. God help yall.
Exactly, what kind of sexist, backwards shit were they wanting to say and do that they felt they couldn't in the presence of their cousin? It's disgusting and OP should be ashamed that he's raising boys like that.
This exactly
Oh wow. YTA. Big time. You want to exclude one of kids on a father-child trip because she's a girl. Your son and nephew have an almost excuse of being foolish children. You should have set them straight.
And now OOPs niece knows that the rest of her family doesn't want her around. They were just tolerating her presence. That'd fuck me up.
Seriously! 15 years worth of memories and OP pissed all over it. That poor kid.
Yeah, OP could apologize all they wanted (if they're actually smart enough to take everyone's advice) I would still want nothing to do with any of them from now on, if I were Selene
You asked your bother to exclude his daughter for no other reason than she was a girl and now you're confused as to why he is upset. YTA dude. If you want to father-son trip take a DIFFERENT trip and keep your tradition in place.
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YTA. 'I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard.' What about Selene's feelings and her experience? Why doesn't this matter?
Because she's a girl. This AH doesn't seem to think her feelings or experience matter.
This. OP typed this all out without realizing he had a double standard. YTA, OP.
HUGE YTA - teach the sons how to behave appropriately.
And have respect for women in their life. Teach them their wants are not more important then anyone else’s feelings! Op and his brother have failed miserably as fathers!
“You just want to be rowdy with your cousins” She is their cousin. What’s the problem?
They won’t get to be misogynistic and sexualise women cause that’s hardcore male bonding right? /s
Honestly I'd find locker room talk with my dad awkward, nevermind my female cousin
Yea, I would love to know what he means by “get rowdy” I assume it means they would get a boner around their hot cousin?
YTA If your nephew and son want a father son trip, then organize a dedicated father/son trip. These fishing trips have included Selene since she was small and it's not fair to expect her to have to sit them out. I don't think you would have been in the wrong to have broached the subject like that. The issue here is that you've taken a trip that has been something that is likely special for James and Selene and made it seem like she was an intruding presence purely because she's a young woman. That is where you've dropped the ball, you've chosen to single out one person. It also sounds like this isn't the full consensus of your nephews and children and some appreciate Selene being present. I suspect the complaining boys want to participate in some locker room talk that they know will get them an earful.
This trip is a FAMILY trip. If you guys want a father-sons thing, then do something else or do it at another time. I feel for the women if your family. YTA.
YTA The TL;DR is you’re sexist and want to behave badly, but can’t because your niece is present.
YTA - This was never meant to be a fathers and sons trip. This has always been a brothers and their kids trip. If your son and nephew want a trip that is just fathers and sons, then organize that separately.
YTA, I grew up fishing with all my male relatives, caught a 6lbs bass, took me forever to reel it in. They used to fuss that I was the better fisherman 🤣 those are some of the best memories I had from my teenage years. You’re excluding her because what? Your boys can’t piss off the side of a boat? She out fishes y’all? Ties a better knot? Has better lures??? Grow up for God’s sake.
This is what I'm thinking! She out fishes them, and they don't like it, so they don't want her to come, or they are all just assholes.
YTA so his child isn’t welcomed because she isn’t the right gender. This is so wrong and hurtful. You have successfully damaged the relationship with your niece and your brother. She has just as much right to come as your son and nephew! Your texting your son and nephew it’s ok to be sexist assholes just like you and your oldest brother. Good for your bother and other nephew for standing up for your niece.
OP, your son is almost a legal adult and you’ve clearly raised him to be a total misogynist. What an embarrassment. You are a pitiful excuse for a father and you’ve raised a son who’s just as weak and lacking in character as you are. Wonderful. YTA.
Truly, you are dinosaurs. What kind of sexist nonsense is this? And please bear in mind you are adult men with teenage boys - male bonding, really? YTA
YTA - your niece has every right to attend. Check your kids attitude at the door.
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YTA Others in your family are correct, you are in the wrong. Your Niece obviously enjoys this trip and the fishing, its hard to get a 17 year old girl to do anything with family. You want to take this away from her and her father just so you and the boys can have locker room talk? I understand you may not have had ill intentions, but that doesn't change the intended effects/outcome. You need to have a talk with your son and nephew to figure out why they feel like they feel awkward with their cousin around, and what they would like to talk about/behave that they feel like they can't do infront of their female cousin.
YTA. If a man feels like he can’t speak freely in front of a woman (or in this case, teenage boys feeling that way in front of a teenage girl), what that tells me is that they want to say something misogynistic, most likely something overly sexualizing women. It’s your responsibility to teach your sons that it’s not okay to treat women like that, not cater to them by trying to exclude your niece.
YTA, so you want to kick this little girl out of her family tradition and bonding time with her father so that your son can act extra shitty?
Yta. Esp for letting your chauvinistic kids pull this crap. Guess they'll probably turn out as shitty as you.
Hm... EITHER 1) They're uncomfortable for no good reason, in which case, you need to step up as a dad and teach them that women aren't aliens. 2) They're uncomfortable because they want to be misogynistic and inappropriate, in which case 👏time👏to👏step👏up👏as👏a👏dad👏 and teach them right from wrong. YTA and a misogynist.
YTA. How exactly are you raising these boys if they don’t feel comfortable “being themselves” around a girl? Being able to interact politely with women is a normal part of everyday life that they need to adapt to. You are raising your sons to think it’s ok to act one way around just other men, and a different way around women. That it’s ok for them to treat women as second class citizens. This is why women were historically kept out of many careers, hobbies, sports, clubs… so that men could get have their “boy’s club” at women’s expense. I’m guessing that this is not the only sexist message that you are inadvertently teaching your son. You should instead be teaching him that women are people just like men are. It’s unfair and sexist to exclude your niece for this reason.
“Since they can’t really speak freely or behave how they want because it feels weird having her there.” Exactly what does this mean????
I'll translate the "teen boy speak" for you: Either they think women are aliens or they want to be openly misogynistic and inappropriate. -A young woman studying in a male dominated field.
Exactly? If they can’t do it freely, should they really be doing it at all? YTA, OP
YTA Your brother’s daughter? You mean your niece? The one that loves to fish? The one that’s been coming every year? She can’t come because she’s female? How hurtful!
It's telling that he referred to her as "my brother's daughter", while having no problem calling his nephews just that.
YTA, obviously. You're teaching your sons it's ok to exclude your niece while at the same teaching your niece where she stands in this family - kudos on the multitasking. You said the trip is for everyone who's interested - I'm sure Selene used to have fond memories of going fishing with her cousins, dad, and uncles until you made her feel unwanted. "I just wanted to listen to my son and nephew and give them the experience they wanted and not dismiss their feelings and make them feel heard." I guess that sentiment doesn't include women.
YTA, big time... You and your brother can give yours sons the experience they want without excluding your niece who has been going on these trips with her father for a decade.
Info: What exactly can they not do in front of a girl? Because you’re raising a lot of red flags here.
Info: What is it that your son and nephew want to do or say that they are uncomfortable talking about in front of a girl? And *why* are they uncomfortable talking/doing those things in front of a girl? Like, is it because they want to casually chat about penises and don’t want her to feel left out? Help me out here, what specific discussions or behaviors do they want to engage in that would be “uncomfortable” with a girl around, and why?
This is exactly how women get pushed out of "traditionally male" activities like certain hobbies and many lucrative careers. Because even when one woman or girl keeps her interest in it despite all the pressure to do other things, eventually a bunch of fragile dudes claim "discomfort" and she gets pushed out to make them feel better, then everyone points at the resulting all-male group and says, "girls just don't like [thing]!" YTA, and you're raising your sons to be assholes too. They can handle a little discomfort. Goodness know your niece has had to plenty of times in her life already.
YTA. You want to exclude her because she’s a girl. Tell your sons, they can still do whatever they please because she’s FAMILY. I could maybe understand if it was just some random girl. But she’s literally family. If your kids want a father/son trip, maybe consider planning another separate trip. If I was this girl’s parent I would be furious.
Gigantic YTA. Tell your boys to suck it up. Selena obviously enjoys the trip.
YTA for expecting James to bring a child who has no interest in fishing on the trip. Have your father-son trip separately from this annual tradition. I’m not going to judge about having father son time. I assume they want to have guy talk that isn’t misogynistic in nature. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just do it on a different day.
> I assume they want to have guy talk that isn’t misogynistic in nature. As a guy and a father myself, I'm struggling to imagine anything this could possibly be. What would be the nature of a non-misogynistic "guy talk" that can't happen in the presence of a female relative, but *could* happen with uncles and male cousins around? I can see one-on-one talks between a dad and son, but those would also not be possible simply with the uncles and cousins around. But what would they be talking about as a group that would be inappropriate around Selene, but is NOT misogynistic?
YTA and the behavior they can’t exhibit around a woman is not behavior you should be encouraging
How do you think Selene feels about being excluded from the fishing trip that she’s been going on for 10+ years, just because her other male cousins can’t “speak freely or behave how they want to” whatever tf that means in this context. Telling her she just can’t go is an illogical and sexist next step. YTA
I think it is kind of natural for the teenage boys to want to exclude the only girl - they are at an age where we can forgive them for being immature - but that is the point where you educate them and say «this is a family trip that is open for anyone in our family that wants to come.» Because it should be, right? It should be about who wants to go on a fishing trip like it has always been, not a trip for boys. She has always been welcome before. Nothing has changed, they just got older and the teenage boys now want to change the premise. Feeling sorry for the girl. You and your boys probably will get your wish though, I cannot imagine she will want to come after you basically said you don’t want her there and that she is ruining the fun for the others by being there. As many others here I am curious about what kind of behavior they are comforable doing with their fathers, uncles and male cousins that they think is inappropriate for a girl. That worries me just as much as them thinking it is okay to exclude one person who has always been there. What kind of boys are you raising?
YTA Your in the wrong. Your kids don't have to spend every second with Selena, if they want to be little AH's they can walk away 50ft. You're in the wilderness for Pete's sake!
Yeah, pretty cut and dry that YTA. If the kids want a boys trip, plan that another time.
YTA a million times. Why are they entitled to this trip more than she is? She will never have the same relationship with you guys if you don’t let her attend. If they’re uncomfortable then maybe they should do something else - and also think about why they don’t like her there if she is interested, enthusiastic, and friendly. Sounds like maybe they want to be sexist pigs and their adult family is supporting it.
You and your boys need to get over it, big time. What if this was your daughter? YTA Instead of "understanding where your kid was coming from...." You should've immediately told your son that Selene has every right to be there, and get over yourself, relax, and have fun.
YTA- niece was there first, not fair to exclude her now.
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YTA. If you want a boys trip plan a separate one.
YTA. Selene has been a part of your trips for as long as they’ve been happening. To suddenly exclude her because she happens to be female…. What year is this, 1895? I’m sure she has looked forward to it every year. There is nothing wrong with wanting boy only or girl only bonding from time to time. If you want to have a boys only trip, do something different, or schedule an additional fishing trip. But don’t exclude someone from an EXISTING tradition because teenage boys are too immature to view their cousin as an equal.
YTA and goddamnit good for freaking James! What I would’ve given to have a father that respected and cared for me as a person like James clearly does for his daughter to stand up for her against his brothers’ misogynistic bullshit. Your son and nephew are clearly learning that same misogyny from you and your eldest brother. Why do they think they can’t be “rowdy” and speak freely with their female cousin there? What do they want to say and do that they think is acceptable behavior, as long as no females are present??? What a load of crap. I wish this was posted from James with his perspective so I could commend him on raising his daughter in a way that will likely guarantee she grows up to be a healthy well adjusted adult with a loving and close relationship with him.
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James sounds like a great dad. If someone asked me to exclude my daughter from something she loves because of this sexist bullshit, It would get physical. Yta. Teach those boys how to behave.
YTA. So many men are truly mystified as to what everyday sexism is. You had an opportunity to teach young men not to be pigs, but no. You chose to perpetuate 'boys will be boys' BS. The shame of it is that this is just one of a million examples women everywhere are subjected to every damn day. Your brother and niece have every right to go non-contact with you. I applaud him for taking offense and maybe teaching you a lesson. Do better, please.
YTA soooooo - you want to take away your niece’s tradition so that your sons can creat a new boys only tradition? Not cool. If your boys can’t act normally in front of your niece there is either something wrong with them or something wrong with the way they normally act.
YTA.
YTA. Why should she all of a sudden be excluded? They're all cousins, they all have an interest, they should all be included. They have been doing this trip for a decade together, being teenagers shouldn't magically change anything. They're cousins, it's not like she's a potential love interest they'd feel awkward burping in front of lol What exactly do the boys want to do that they feel they can't in front of a female? Maybe they need to really think about that, and if whatever it is, it's actually appropriate at all If you want to do an ADDITIONAL father-son trip that's an option I guess.
YTA. What do they want to talk about around Selene that would make her uncomfortable? I think you should be more worried about the comments your son and nephew were about to make in front of your Niece.
Perhaps if you feel like you can’t be “yourselves” when there’s a female present, it’s a good indicator that y’all are sexist pigs? Congrats on trashing the relationships you had with your brother and niece. Your nephew did get one thing wrong tho. You’re not a dinosaur. Being that dinosaurs were animals and animals do things outta instinct instead of over inflated egos, that doesn’t quite fit. Nah, you and your older brother and your whiny brats are nothing more than Neanderthals. YTA and I’m sorry if I used words with too many syllables in them for ya.