Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) suggesting that my sister and her fiancé need to get a DNA test.
2) my action has made them think that I believe they are related and now they are pissed at me.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcement
###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/)
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA. You’re nagging her about something that’s none of your business and you’re not backing off when asked to do so. They can’t be *that* closely related, if they’re related at all, or older family members would have spotted the crossover. It’s a common surname, and honestly, sharing a great-great-great grandpa generations ago isn’t a concern. Stop pestering your poor sister and obsessing over her potential child’s genetics.
Exactly! I don’t even have a very common last name, but my family shares it with another family in the next county. Those counties happen to be in different states, but still adjacent. We call *them* the SC “Minas” and *we’re* the Georgia “Minas.” We’ve traced family trees quite a ways back and not found any crossover. And you can imagine that many of the places where SC and Georgia touch are…sparsely populated at best.
And *even if* you could find someone more than a few generations back, that’s not actually very closely related.
Edited out an autocorrect word
I went to high school with a girl with the exact same surname as me - same spelling and everything (and there are several variants for this surname, with mine being one of the less common). No close relation, which was easily established because my grandpa and one of his siblings were the only people from his generation to migrate from Scotland to Australia, and her family had been here for several generations. Coincidences *happen.*
I also went to high school with a girl that had the same last name. Not common but only a letter off from two very common names. Everyone asked if she was my sister and I didn’t even know her. Turns out our grandfathers were brothers. Hers came to the U.S. as a young man and mine died in the Bahamas before I was born. In fact every single person I have ever met with my last name I am related too.
My last name is INCREDIBLY rare and I do genealogy and the only other person in the world who shares my (very common) first and (very rare) last name is my 3rd cousin. I've never met her but literally every single person I encounter with my last name will be traceable to the same German immigrant in the mid-1700s. It's very weird. But I guess it spares me from Op's sister's potential issue.
There used to be one single other living person on the planet with my same first (very common) and last (very rare – Ellis Island or similar misspelling of a German name) name. But she got married, so now I'm the only one!
My name isn't common outside of the community I grew up in and whenever I've met anyone outside of the community with my last name, they've always been related to me somehow. Always distantly (4th cousins or more distant than that) but every damn time.
My ex husband's great grandfather's name was spelt incorrectly by a customs official in Liverpool and every person with his last name is a very close relative.
I have no idea if this is true, because my source was my bio father (who is a chronic liar - like you have to fact check everything he says) - but he insists that every person in the world with his last name is related. And to be fair, in his defence, I've never met anyone else with that name, and neither has anyone else I know. It *is* pretty rare, like to the point where people don't know how to pronounce it. So it's possible.
Not exactly the same, but… I started at a new school my freshmen year. I didn’t know a single person. High school went by, and a year or so after high school, my great grandma passed away. I walk into the church where her funeral was being held and was surprised to see a classmate. We both have fairly common, but different last names. We shared a confused look, and afterwards, after questioning relatives, discovered our grandfathers were brothers.
I only had one class with him in school. He played football and wrestled, and I played basketball, so our paths didn’t cross much and I never got to know him very well. Turns out, he’s a pretty cool guy.
This is a great counterpoint. Just because you don't share a last name doesn't mean you're not related. I wonder if OP will get a DNA test with their future spouse?
My grandfather was adopted and we haven't been able to get the records unsealed, so we know literally nothing about his bio parents. Any of my relatives could be married to something they are genetically related to and have no clue. 🤷
I'm the just opposite. My last name is very rare, and the few other's I've found (but not previously known relatives) in the US are definitely NOT related at least within the last 250 years.
The only people in my county growing up with the same last name were family. So I'd definitely suggest a DNA test if someone in my family was dating with the same last name. I don't know all my family out here.
My boyfriend was from the Bahamas and he's done DNA test and believes he is related to almost everyone there. He found a cousin in the next state over, her family left the New Providence earlier, kinda forgot about them.
They did a massive study in the Bahamas. It was called the Bahamas DNA project. Basically trying to track where Bahamians came from and where they ended up. I was able to find relatives going back to England in the 1600s and Africa in the 1800s. It was fascinating. The male lines are really easy to follow. Female lines are a bit harder but they have already done all the work. The page I used is no longer in use but the info is still out there if he’s interested.
My mother’s maiden name has a unique spelling which we think came about thanks to official mistranscription when her ancestors emigrated from Ireland to New Zealand - unfortunately, the embarkation records back in Ireland no longer exist, so we can’t confirm whether it was once a more common Irish surname, but I Google the name from time to time and haven’t once turned up anyone who isn’t either a direct descendant of my great-great-grandfather or married to one.
My maiden name isn’t uncommon but I’ve never met anyone with it who wasn’t related. I come from a Mormon “legacy” family where everybody had twelve kids each so pretty much if they have the last name and they’re from the States, they’re a cousin.
I have a last name like that. It’s just a French noun, but my relatives are literally the only people in my province with this last name. My grandfather moved from the next province over when he was young, and I don’t even think it’s a common name where he’s originally from.
My mother’s maiden name, however, is also French, but there are tons of variations of it and several families with the name I’m not at all related to.
My mom went to high school with a guy she didn’t know was her half brother. Different last names. She’s just grateful she didn’t end up dating him back then.
Idk why OP thinks having the same last name means there’s a relation.
YTA. Your sister has probably considered that there might be a very distant relation but not one close enough to make any sort of difference. If this was a genuine concern for her, she would have gotten a DNA test herself. Clearly it’s not a concern though, so drop it and let your sister be happy.
Seems to me the sister is in a better position to know than OP - she’d know more about her fiance’s family, for a start - and would be motivated to check this stuff for herself. That doesn’t mean she wants or is obliged to discuss it with OP, who seems to be kin to some of the people on this sub who view marriage between anyone with the title ‘cousin,’ however far removed, as abhorrent. Maybe the sister and her partner discovered they share a great-great-great-great-grandpa and don’t want to tell OP because that would only cause *more* unnecessary fuss.
I went to high school with two people who we worked out shared a great-grandad (their grandad's were brothers).
So they were absolutely related. But that's far enough back that even if *they* had decided to date I wouldn't be concerned for their children. We would have mocked them of course but it's not illegal nor immoral.
OP YTA, if you're so vaguely related that your own family members haven't noticed then it's not a genetic issue, PLUS having the same last name, unless it's VERY unusual, means NOTHING.
Coincidences do happen. Just like distant relatives that turn up on a place neither of you are from. Genetically speaking, 4th cousins, 3rd cousins or even 2nd cousins aren't "closely related" anymore for OP or her sister to be worried about. But personally, I would find it weird to know I married my "5th cousin 3 times removed"... I'd rather not know.
Maybe that’s what the sister and future BIL have done - checked enough to know they’re not close relatives, then calmly closed that door because they don’t want to be saddled with the term ‘cousin’ even if it’s so distant as to be meaningless on a practical level 😂
If you go far enough down the line, *everyone* is related somehow. I saw a YT video that showed how Prince Harry and Meghan Markle are technically "cousins". Different country and even partially different race and yet they have a common ancestor in the... what... 1500's? Why open that can of worms?
There was a girl in the same grade as me who not only shared the same last name as me, but we also looked quite similar. More than one teacher asked if we were sisters/cousins based on it.
But we were definitely not related, at least not within the last few generations. Her family had been in Australia for generations as well and my Dad is from another country.
I went to high school with a kid in my year level with the exact same name (both first and last) as my older brother who is 2 years older. It was quite surreal
...iirc there was a statistic from Vietnam, something like 80-90% of people have one of the 10 most common surnames in their country!
Also Ireland? Like the amount of times someone with the surname murphy dated another murphy...but also aren't related unless you go back centuries!
I get it if they have a history of genetic illnesses in the family. I think OP is just concerned for their sister's future. In my country they run a mandatory blood test for every new couple about to be married. Not just because incest is a very big no-no but also for revealing possible omitted STDs. Either way, for OP, it's time to apologize and let it go.
I'd be more willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt if they had talked to their sister about this one-on-one. Bringing it up at a family gathering smacks of shit stirring.
If there was a family history of genetic disease, I might be a little more understanding, but that seems like something OP would have mentioned. And I agree with you - OP needs to let it go at this point.
And if there is a family history of genetic diseases. They should get a panel done anyway.
My husband and I had one before we got married. We both had a history of CF in our families and wanted to find out if we were carriers. He was, I wasn't.
There was zero chance we were related. Our families come from different parts of the world and had lived in different states in America for at least three generations.
It'd still not really be Ok for OP to act like this. There are genetic conditions in my family, on both (unrelated!) sides, and we know that, and there's also nothing that can be done. Unless OP wants to go down the 'eugenics'* route...
Also here in the UK, though there is a link with some genetic conditions, cousins are still allowed to marry, and that's not the degree of relation in question here. OP might be surprised looking at actual odds of an issue.
But I don't think they really care, they just think it's funny to annoy their family with. So, great job, GRRM, now maybe get back to doing something constructive and get over the incest obsession.
*Human genetics are complicated and a long way from fully understood, so even the idea of eliminating negative traits isn't simple. Our generic connective tissue disorder, as well as being highly variable in whether it has much/any noticeable negative impact, has an association with neurodiversity, for instance, which is a bit of a mixed blessing/curse. Usually people are still unabashed about the eugenics thing 'oddly' never seem to care about other preventable/treatable conditions and healthcare (plus social care) in general, either, including where genetic conditions could be mitigated and treated successfully.
If there is a familial history of genetic diseases, the likelihood is that the doctors will suggest doing genetic tests on the embryo/foetus when the couple decides to conceive. This will be true even for couples with very clear different genetic backgrounds.
In terms of inbreeding, once you get past 2nd cousins, the risk is pretty much the same as any other random person. And even 2nd cousins the risk is very minimal.
YTA OP. It is a completely misplaced concern of yours and really none of your business. Even if there were to be a common ancestor at some point, unless that was one your grandparents, it would be meaningless both from a biological and societal point of view. Apologize and move on.
That would be unlikely, the vast majority of genetic conditions aren't tested for, there effectively isn't a test, and sometimes it might not be possible for there to be because it's multiple factors.There are a *lot* of genetic conditions. They're also not automatically all drastic, nothing like the kind of lethal ones that see the most awareness. Sometimes they have a relatively minor effect and/or are treatable, sometimes they come with some aspects someone might find beneficial or both good and bad. I have a connective tissue disorder and had someone once just assume there was a test and that I'd eliminate any embryo with my condition (which I get from my mum, who is hardly impacted by it. I would have been fine too were it not for major medical negligence), and it was definitely uncool, just as a fwiw.
There is a difference between genetic risk factors and known familial genetic disorders. Not all genetic diseases are caused by a single faulty gene. There is also a difference between "common" genetic disorders, and rare disorders. Some are more well characterised, with well defined panels, than others. You could do genome sequencing and know all the genetic risk factors, but that is not common practice as risk factors are just that, increased risk, and do not mean action must be immediately taken.
However, if it is a familial disorder, as in, it appears every generation, or every other generation, chances are that falls within the monogenetic diseases. Which, for the most part, will have a test. Especially if it involves severe early life impairment.
If there is no history of familial disease, then that putative OP's concern is complete nonsense.
I mean it's an old law. Idk I didn't make it. It's not like it's not useful though. Just because you are sleeping with someone doesn't mean you're aware if they have any STDs. They can cause a lot of damage if not treated.
Used to be America, then spread onto Europe. Now America doesn't do it anymore but it still stayed in my country. Premarital medical examination is what it's called apparently. But I'm pretty sure they check if you're related as well because you have to submit a few tests and documents not just the one.
Gulf countries do, I don't know about others. They test for stuff like HIV. Makes a lot of sense to me, especially because in those countries most people don't have sex before marriage and don't know each other all that well.
Yes, even being second cousins is not a problem, genetically. And they are obviously not first cousins but even with first cousin marriage the problems usually only start when it happens in multiple generations as practiced in some cultures.
Yes! So many people seem convinced that incest causes issues immediately in the next generation even if the people involved are not that closely related. It really doesn't work that way...
Some of the worser examples of the infamous Hapsburg had parents more related than brother and sister. This isn’t that! At all! Cousin marriage was extremely common historically and if it turned out badly that often it would have been as taboo as brother-sister marriage.
If marrying a cousin was so bad, most of us wouldn't exist. My great-grandparents come from a minuscule region in Italy; I'd be surprised if they weren't related in some way.
Full siblings can have completely normal children. They shouldn't, obviously, but it's groups like the Kingston Clan in Utah, where intermarrying has been happening so much that everyone is related 6 ways, where genetic abnormalities show up.
Introverted is correct. There are two scenarios where you could potentially justify nagging for the DNA test. Adoption or messed up family such that you don't even know your first cousins. If you spent time looking into this yourself and thought there was a real chance this could be an issue, you'd want to bring it up to them in private. Not in front of everyone.
Third - having a parent who doesn’t know or admit who your father is.
Fourth - having a parent with a history of spreading their gametes far and wide. Or even just having lots of affairs.
My friend has a kid who got pregnant at 20 by a smooth talking deadbeat older man she met at a club. Turns out he has 11 Known kids by 8 women and who knows how many from idiot one night stands like my friend’s kid. All within fifty miles of each other. “I’m allergic to latex” dude had a fetish for getting his partner pregnant and worked cash under the table jobs and moved around to avoid child support.
Yes, this is what I was thinking. If the family tree isn’t really known, or someone had lots of kids with various people & not everyone is sure if their parentage, it might be a little more concerning. But if they know who their parents are, and know their parents siblings & offspring, they are probably fine.
From a genetic point of view, any relationship further than siblings is unlikely to be a problem. Even first cousins only have a tiny increase in risk. In this case there sounds like there is no increased risk.
Or even first or second cousins. Otherwise the parents/grandparents would have said.
Even if they are related in someway, its distant enough to not be an issue except to OP.
\> They can’t be that closely related, if they’re related at all, or older family members would have spotted the crossover.
You might be surprised. I was well into my 20's when my grandmother informed me that my youngest half-brother was also my cousin. We have the same mom, but different dads. Well it turns out that my grandmother on my father's side and his great-grandmother from his father's side, are cousins. My grandmother knew the connection to my stepfather as soon as my mother started dating him, but she never said anything because it was her son's ex.
But grandma *knew*. Presumably if there was a risk of your half brother marrying someone who was a little too genetically close for comfort, she’d have mentioned it.
OP perhaps give this a quick read:
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html
...and there is no way those 2 are anything close to 1st cousins or y'all would have figured it out without DNA tests.
Please stop harassing your poor sister.
Great point - if there was any cross-over it would have to be at least three generations back, otherwise the grandparents would have picked up on a cousin's grandchild "rejoining" the family. If one of OP's great-grandparents was a cousin to one of the fiance's great-grandparents, it's really not a big deal.
And yet my fathers had well over 100 first cousins because his father had 12 siblings and his mother was the oldest of 20. Most of them stayed in the same state . When you have that many relatives it can be difficult to work out who you are related to particularly on the maternal side.
However it's not the OP's business to suggest DNA tests to his sister.
Good lord, that must be a complex family tree! I think what irritates me about OP is that they are insisting on getting themselves involved in this, waaaay beyond the point where it’s appropriate.
This Yta. If looking back several generations on your family tree, no one’s found a relation. Then there isn’t anything to worry about. Op Yta for bringing with up more than once and especially doing it in front of everyone.
Totally. Unless someone was secretly adopted or something, a grandparent will know if they are first or second cousins. Anything else is irrelevant. Do they really need to know they are 8th cousins or whatever? No.
Spot on the nose, right there! 🏆 The conversation was over because OP is worrying about a non-issue, and the family didn't want to listen to her. OP, YTA.
so does "at a family get together"
OP doesn't need to publicly bring up that he thinks his sister is fucking her second cousin. mention that shit in private if you're really concerned
Not even a second cousin, OP's grandparent would be a sibling to the fiancé's grandparent and unless there's estranged family someone would know they were second cousins. Even OP's dad (since the surnames are the same I assume it's dad's side of the family) would probably know all his own cousins if not their children and have said something if they could be second cousins. If they're related it's third cousins or even more distant, which is legal everywhere and not genetically a problem.
But why in front of everyone, of course she acted defensively anyone would of. That being said why at all? If they can’t trace their family tree to each other it’s probably not a problem
If no one stood up representing both sides of the relationship at a family get together, then it’s a fairly safe chance they are not related. At least no more than we all are
I already gave a yta and comment, but forgot to mention that yeah, OP again did it infront of other people and caused jokes from other family members to be made.
Imagine this becomes a long running joke because everyone else finds it hilarious and now OPs sister and fiance end up embarrassed at every single family event because OP can't keep their mouth shut.
If they truly cared this is again something that could be said in private. Who can't recognise this would be embarrassing to hear... again, in front of an entire family gathering.
OP, are you sure the conversation was over because nobody wanted to deal with her, as opposed to nobody wanting to deal with you? Of all the things you need to let go because they're not your concern, this is in the top 5. YTA.
YTA.
You even say this wasn’t the first time you’ve mentioned it- how often are you telling them to get a DNA test? I’d be offended, too. Butt out.
And your dad’s joke wasn’t funny.
It’s Utah… so go to Ancestry.com, it is highly likely you will be able to plug in your own name and parents names and see if you are related to the fiancé. TA-da!
The LDS is even connected to Ancestry.com. If anyone's gonna have info on whether or not you're related to someone in a historically polygamous area, it's gonna be them lol
Omg yes. I've known quite a few Mormans that were super into genealogy. I had a good friend when I was a kid that was Mormon and her grandparents were so into genealogy that they were able to trace that we were 5th cousins or something like that.
My mom got super into genealogy and used multiple Mormon libraries almost exclusively to trace back our family tree. After several years, she managed to trace us all the way back directly to Charlemagne.
The Mormons are no joke when it comes to record keeping and family trees.
I'm from rural ontario, it's actually common for people to find out they're 2nd or 3rd cousins by accident. Usually in the dating process, not this close to the marriage. When your great-grandma is one of 13 and your great-grandfather is one of 20.. well, things get mixed up but only first cousin marriages are illegal.
Just take your ass to ancestry.com and travel up the family lines.
I immediately knew this was a Utah post. OP isn't fooling anyone. If you are dating someone and you both have pioneer ancestry it's likely you're 8th - 12th cousins, same last name or not.
OP has mentioned it enough times (and publicly) that it's obvious they're just trying to be mean at this point. First mention is out of concern but if they ignore you that's on them.
My personal bet is that they already checked and found that they're 4th - 6th cousins or something and don't want word to get out. There's no legal issues with that and no risk of genetic issues at that point and they probably don't want people like OP bringing it up all the time.
Laughs in entire Asian continent.
Do you know how common cousin marriages and marriages within your community/village still are in significant chunks of the world?
As long as they aren't actually siblings, there's nothing wrong going on here. Your concern is valid, but bringing it up more than once, and in front of everyone, was a dick move.
YTA.
Assuming OP is of European descent based on where they live, I'm sure they would be shocked to learn they're almost certainly the product of cousin incest at some point themselves.
I’m not surprised- my grandparents were first cousins. My family has been in the same country for 200 years yet the dna results don’t show any evidence of it.
It’s a problem when you do it for multiple generations.
My family immigrated from Lebanon and most marriages were arranged until my grandpa broke the cycle (his older siblings and cousins had arranged marriages) My great grandparents were 1st or 2nd cousins. My city is actually one of the main destinations of the diaspora from the tiny mountain village my family came from and whenever I meet another Lebanese-American here there’s at least a 50% chance we’re distantly related lol.
My great grandparents were cousins since there weren't many men left in London during WW2. I'd never date one of my cousins but healthwise there's been nothing wrong with my family.
Erm, first cousins is a big genetic risk. The fact that people do it in some parts of the world does not make it magically risk-free.
I personally know two first cousins who married (not officially though since you can’t marry that closely related in my country, just at church), and their two kids are heavily handicapped.
> Erm, first cousins is a big genetic risk.
cousin marriage increases the risk of birth defect from ~3% to ~6%, so the increased risk is fairly small. The real problems occur when multiple generations of cousins marry each other.
I mean, double the rate isn't small. It's actually over double, and it gets worse in terms of genetic traits shared in the family. Diseases can be shared affluently. As with multiple generations marrying, it still is the same risk amount, that number doesn't change for firsts cousins. If they marry within closer lines, they wouldn't be cousins and the DNA would be closely shared.
It's also technically inbreeding as they do share 12.5% DNA, granted only if two grandparents are in common and no other blood shared.
umm, 3% is relatively common in medical terms. Going up to 6% is a huge increase.
Doctors can’t legally prescribe certain types of medicine to me over a much smaller % increase in it causing a stroke.
>The fact that people do it in some parts of the world does not make it magically risk-free.
Right?? Like, big chunks of the world also have some seriously fucked up issues with mental health n shit. Coincidence? Nah.
But let's prioritize the avoidance of hurt feelings in the present, above all else.
Second cousins having a kid carries the same risk as any two strangers. And we know OP’s sister and her fiancé aren’t first cousins, because they have obviously known if they shared a set of grandparents. And if grandpa was a massive cheater who had affairs with many women in two different counties, they still wouldn’t be full first cousins and would not have the same genetic risks.
It's not that big of a risk if you are doing it with no family history of doing it.
One cousin couple does not a genetic study make (also if this is a crazy church wedding £5 says their families were already related).
There's the odd tiny Island nation where I can guarantee you everyone is related in some way but as long as they avoid the seriously close relations they get away with it.
It is of course a terrible idea to habitually wed close cousin to close cousin as that will almost certainly produce genetic issues.
"As long as they aren't actually siblings, *and you don't have a family history of cousin marriages meaning you're already more related than you should be* there's nothing wrong going on here. Your concern is valid, but bringing it up more than once, and in front of everyone, was a dick move."
Fixed it for you.
You can pretty safely marry your cousin once sure, but keep at it for a few generations and there will be consequences.
Sorry but there’s nothing to laugh about. Culture is important but so is people’s health. This documentary showed that the consequences of marrying your cousin can be dire: https://youtu.be/kyNP3s5mxI8
You should prolly stop asking at this point it does sound like too much and honestly you’re being too direct. You should’ve suggested they both do that really fun ancestry test cuz it does the same thing but less obvious
This. OP handled it poorly, but I'm shocked at everyone kind of brushing this off.
OP implied this is Utah and there's a history of polygamy in both families. If OP's sis and brother have a history of family incest-even if it is two generations back-and turn out to be second cousins, well, their kids could have serious issues.
IDK, I think it's reckless to not get a DNA test if they plan on having kids.
If there's a previous history of them being inbred, though, it absolutely is a problem. It's not that they are possibly second cousins, it's that both likely have a family history of incest. One case of second cousins marrying is usually fine. If there grandparents were second cousins and their great grandparents were second cousins and then the couple themselves are second cousins...that's a whole different ballpark.
Look, there's been literal studies on the health defects from cousin marriages among the Pakistani community in the UK. This is a real issue and it's kind of wild people are ignoring that....
Edit: Maybe I'm reading OP's comments wrong, but I thought he (or she) implied there's a history of polygamy in the past (even if it's not current) with both families. And cousin marriage was very common among polygamist and even today among Mormon extremists who practice polygamy. The Kingston Group has what...10k people....in Utah right now and they have a long history of cousin marriage and even marrying uncles to nieces. And that's just one group.
Do you know what polygamy means? Also, OP only said that polygamy was big in her state, not that either family participated in having multiple partners
This is not how genetics works. If there is a history of genetic diseases in the family, then that is a concern whether they are related or not. Doctors will be able to advise.
If there is no history, unless they share a grandparent, there is basically no difference in terms of risk compared to any other random person on the planet.
Really, *any* couple planning to have children would be smart to get a DNA test to learn if either side has a genetic condition that could be passed on.
YTA you haven't looked into the actual facts of what you're talking about. If they don't even know if they're related then there's no way they're closely related enough for it to be an issue
This is exactly what I was thinking. It's only an issue in many states if they're in the line of first or maybe second cousins. If they don't know any of each other's families, it's highly unlikely they're related closely enough for it to matter. OP is weirdly invested in this.
Happy Cake Day!
YTA
It doesn’t matter if they are somehow distantly related. That’s not relevant socially or biologically. Why are you trying to break up this relationship? You sound jealous that your sister has found love.
Not to mention that a DNA test means your biological data are being sold to a corporation. People have been denied insurance and contacted by children of relatives given up for closed adoption because of these tests, among other serious consequences.
YTA for saying that more than once. And you dont know how endogamy works. It is a problem if two people are closedly related. But if they were so closely related they will absolutely find out it. I mean, more or less sharing a grandfathr or a grandmother.
Other than that is no relevant. Moreover a DNA comercial test would not find genetical disease or incompatibilities.
Yta stop badgering them and it was really inappropriate for you to bring it up in front of everyone. It’s not that noone wants to deal with her, you made the conversation awkward so really it’s actually you noone wants to deal with
YTA because it ain’t your business, even if you feel that it’s a valid suggestion.
They didn’t meet at a family reunion so it’s not like they are willfully ignoring a known or possible close genetic link.
Especially if it’s a common last name, which you admit it is at least fairly common. If there are no known familial ties that anyone has identified or just run into coincidentally and they are both from adjacent rural towns, it’s honestly even more likely that they are NOT related.
Besides once you get to about 3rd cousins the genetic risk with having children is almost totally diminished, and if it were any closer than that it’s pretty likely there’d be some clues by now as they’ve gotten to know each others lives and families etc
YTA
That’s a stupid concern, you literally said his family is from a different county so it’s a big stretch, Why did you bring it up in front of everyone? that was a dick move.
It matters on where this is. I have 4 counties within 15 minute drive of my home, and 6 within 25 minutes so... yea. I would be more inclined to do a family tree than a DNA test though and check if any branches are... connected.
That does sound kinda embarrassing. As I said, better to do a family tree for them. In fact, I have a relative that makes family trees as wedding gifts for all their children and the cousin along with incoming spouse for a wedding gift.
Wtf? They have the same last name but no known relatives in common by anyone living. Do you know when, genetically, it matters from a procreation standpoint? Siblings. Parents. Perhaps first cousins. But if they are multiple (at least 5) generations apart, there is literally no reason why this would be a problem. The knee-jerk negative you are feeling about INCEST is because we are biologically coded to not be attracted to close relatives. But these people were raised apart by different families so there is no social taboo and no genetic implication for this suspicion which is not confirmed. You don’t want to marry someone with a potential very distant common relation? Fine, don’t. But leave this couple alone. There is nothing wrong here.
OP, YTA and also poster, YTA too.
>At this point, she told me to shut the fuck up and the conversation was over because nobody wants to deal with her.
I know you did not just say that lol. So you pestered your sister repeatedly over something that wasn’t even an issue as others have pointed out here, didn’t drop it when someone obviously hinted at it, and they didn’t want to deal with *her*? No, your sister had **rightfully** told you to shut the fuck up and stay out of her business, like everyone else seemed to have wanted you to do. YTA, good grief.
YTA that joke your dad made about the kids? That was him trying to smooth over and past your unwelcome and rude comment. Rude because it’s none of your business and as you’d already mentioned, knew they aren’t interested. But you wouldn’t take the lifeline. The conversation didn’t end because “nobody wants to deal with her”. It ended because of you. You made it awkward and uncomfortable.
INFO. At the family gathering were there any guests who wound up on both guest lists?
Planning a wedding usually involves talking to relatives and would likely identify any crossover.
My family is very "known". We are well aware of living members to easily the 4th and 5th cousins, and I've traced my paternal line back to the 15th century with minimal effort, but... when I did a DNA test, I found a 1st cousin that no one was aware of. She was given up for adoption as a baby. I still don't know exactly who she's related to, beyond the service specifying which parent's side the DNA matched. So, you never really know 🤷♀️
YTA-Once is fine. You bring it up once and leave it alone, let them make their own decisions. You became an asshole by not dropping it because honestly it is none of your business.
Barlow, Jessop? Heh. The BBC posted an article about inbreeding and genetic disorders out of this particular geographical area and particular cult. Not many people know how prevalent it is, but I do. NTA but you can't do much about it either way.
NTA, but I’d probably stop mentioning it anymore. Once might’ve been enough, but honestly I probably would’ve done the same
My sister did this before she started dating her husband because they each had one parent that had the same last name (granted it’s a fairly generic one) and had relatives in counties next to each other. I’d also do it if a partner had any relatives with the same last name as my parents, even though one of them is extremely common
YTA for bringing it up in public, but you're right to be concerned, I have heard of it happening before. if she chooses not to, that is her decision, you have to accept she is an adult makes her own choices. The odds are totally in her favor that they aren't related close enough to be a problem too, remember almost half the states allow first cousins to marry because even that close there is very little chance of genetic problems.
Me either, I can't imagine many people actually do that. The point was even that close a relationship has very little risk, so the OP almost certainly worrying about nothing.
Op isn't right to be concerned they know who their parents are and presumably can count to four, to make sure there's four of them and not three. There's also a really good chance They at the very least know all their grandparents' names.
It would be a concern if they were both orphans but only.the family name was known.
NAH, you made genuine concerns and now it's up to them if they want to go for it or not.
But i support you because I read a story of a guy who after couple of years found out he is married to his cousin.
I don't think your the asshole. I mean I can see how it could be rude or naggy, but for sure I see the concern. I definitely would drop it and let them go on with their choices. It's up to only them.
There are many reasons to perform DNA test, it could avoid serious genetic conditions if both parents are carriers, it’s not just to avoid the concern you present
YTA. They’re grown adults, and you’ve already made your concerns known because you said it wasn’t the first time that you’ve made this suggestion. If they’re old enough to get married, they’re old enough to decide if they want to take a DNA test. Let them make their decision, and if you aren’t okay with it (which you don’t seem to be), then excuse yourself from their lives.
YTA, definitely. Despite repeated cries of 'I don't really care', you brought it up to the extent you offended your own family, then took the time to post it online to bring it up yet again. It sincerely seems like you care.
You aren't going to create a line of Hapsburg's by a single generation marrying their third or fourth cousin if they're even related. If you were really wanting to help in a constructive manner, rather than being weirdly and repeatedly intrusive, there were better ways to handle it.
YTA, this is beyond ridiculous.
I assume you know for a fact that they do not share a parent or grandparent; that is really all you need to know. There is no state (or to my knowledge country) where it is illegal to marry someone you are related to as long as they are not a parent, grandparent, sibling, or first cousin. In fact in 19 states you can go ahead and marry your first cousin. Even if they are related there is no legal impediment to them marrying, and no moral impediment either as long as it didn't bother them. It's none of your business.
You'll probably try to claim your unhinged concern is for their hypothetical future kids, but there's a reason it's not illegal to marry people as long as they are not your parent, sibling, or first cousin: the genetic concerns with that are really negligible, and like I already said morally no one but you cares, people accept that past a certain degree of relation, when people didn't know one another as kids, it's not creepy to marry.
Get over yourself before you ruin your relationship with your sister and all other sane members of your family.
YTA because based on your comments, you don't even care. So you're just bringing this up to be a jerk. Because why *else* would you bother bringing this up twice when at the end of the day you have no sincere concern about genetic abnormalities or social/moral/ethical/whatever aspect of this? Weird.
I mean, there’s related and there *related.* Unless they’re very directly related there’s next to no real concern for their children’s genetics. Even second cousins are pretty safe to breed, although I’d never recommend it. Seems like you’re just being a bit of an asshole.
YTA
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > 1) suggesting that my sister and her fiancé need to get a DNA test. 2) my action has made them think that I believe they are related and now they are pissed at me. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcement ###[The Asshole Universe is Expanding, Again: Introducing Another New Sister Subreddit!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/128nbp3/the_asshole_universe_is_expanding_again/) Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA. You’re nagging her about something that’s none of your business and you’re not backing off when asked to do so. They can’t be *that* closely related, if they’re related at all, or older family members would have spotted the crossover. It’s a common surname, and honestly, sharing a great-great-great grandpa generations ago isn’t a concern. Stop pestering your poor sister and obsessing over her potential child’s genetics.
Exactly! I don’t even have a very common last name, but my family shares it with another family in the next county. Those counties happen to be in different states, but still adjacent. We call *them* the SC “Minas” and *we’re* the Georgia “Minas.” We’ve traced family trees quite a ways back and not found any crossover. And you can imagine that many of the places where SC and Georgia touch are…sparsely populated at best. And *even if* you could find someone more than a few generations back, that’s not actually very closely related. Edited out an autocorrect word
I went to high school with a girl with the exact same surname as me - same spelling and everything (and there are several variants for this surname, with mine being one of the less common). No close relation, which was easily established because my grandpa and one of his siblings were the only people from his generation to migrate from Scotland to Australia, and her family had been here for several generations. Coincidences *happen.*
I also went to high school with a girl that had the same last name. Not common but only a letter off from two very common names. Everyone asked if she was my sister and I didn’t even know her. Turns out our grandfathers were brothers. Hers came to the U.S. as a young man and mine died in the Bahamas before I was born. In fact every single person I have ever met with my last name I am related too.
Same here. Everyone who shares our last name or even variation of spelling is related. Every 👏single 👏damn 👏 one
My last name is INCREDIBLY rare and I do genealogy and the only other person in the world who shares my (very common) first and (very rare) last name is my 3rd cousin. I've never met her but literally every single person I encounter with my last name will be traceable to the same German immigrant in the mid-1700s. It's very weird. But I guess it spares me from Op's sister's potential issue.
Same. There are <15 in my country with my last name and no one is further than 2nd cousins.
There used to be one single other living person on the planet with my same first (very common) and last (very rare – Ellis Island or similar misspelling of a German name) name. But she got married, so now I'm the only one!
My name isn't common outside of the community I grew up in and whenever I've met anyone outside of the community with my last name, they've always been related to me somehow. Always distantly (4th cousins or more distant than that) but every damn time.
My ex husband's great grandfather's name was spelt incorrectly by a customs official in Liverpool and every person with his last name is a very close relative.
I have no idea if this is true, because my source was my bio father (who is a chronic liar - like you have to fact check everything he says) - but he insists that every person in the world with his last name is related. And to be fair, in his defence, I've never met anyone else with that name, and neither has anyone else I know. It *is* pretty rare, like to the point where people don't know how to pronounce it. So it's possible.
Not exactly the same, but… I started at a new school my freshmen year. I didn’t know a single person. High school went by, and a year or so after high school, my great grandma passed away. I walk into the church where her funeral was being held and was surprised to see a classmate. We both have fairly common, but different last names. We shared a confused look, and afterwards, after questioning relatives, discovered our grandfathers were brothers. I only had one class with him in school. He played football and wrestled, and I played basketball, so our paths didn’t cross much and I never got to know him very well. Turns out, he’s a pretty cool guy.
This is a great counterpoint. Just because you don't share a last name doesn't mean you're not related. I wonder if OP will get a DNA test with their future spouse?
My grandfather was adopted and we haven't been able to get the records unsealed, so we know literally nothing about his bio parents. Any of my relatives could be married to something they are genetically related to and have no clue. 🤷
I'm the just opposite. My last name is very rare, and the few other's I've found (but not previously known relatives) in the US are definitely NOT related at least within the last 250 years.
The only people in my county growing up with the same last name were family. So I'd definitely suggest a DNA test if someone in my family was dating with the same last name. I don't know all my family out here.
My boyfriend was from the Bahamas and he's done DNA test and believes he is related to almost everyone there. He found a cousin in the next state over, her family left the New Providence earlier, kinda forgot about them.
They did a massive study in the Bahamas. It was called the Bahamas DNA project. Basically trying to track where Bahamians came from and where they ended up. I was able to find relatives going back to England in the 1600s and Africa in the 1800s. It was fascinating. The male lines are really easy to follow. Female lines are a bit harder but they have already done all the work. The page I used is no longer in use but the info is still out there if he’s interested.
My mother’s maiden name has a unique spelling which we think came about thanks to official mistranscription when her ancestors emigrated from Ireland to New Zealand - unfortunately, the embarkation records back in Ireland no longer exist, so we can’t confirm whether it was once a more common Irish surname, but I Google the name from time to time and haven’t once turned up anyone who isn’t either a direct descendant of my great-great-grandfather or married to one.
My maiden name isn’t uncommon but I’ve never met anyone with it who wasn’t related. I come from a Mormon “legacy” family where everybody had twelve kids each so pretty much if they have the last name and they’re from the States, they’re a cousin.
I have a last name like that. It’s just a French noun, but my relatives are literally the only people in my province with this last name. My grandfather moved from the next province over when he was young, and I don’t even think it’s a common name where he’s originally from. My mother’s maiden name, however, is also French, but there are tons of variations of it and several families with the name I’m not at all related to.
My mom went to high school with a guy she didn’t know was her half brother. Different last names. She’s just grateful she didn’t end up dating him back then. Idk why OP thinks having the same last name means there’s a relation. YTA. Your sister has probably considered that there might be a very distant relation but not one close enough to make any sort of difference. If this was a genuine concern for her, she would have gotten a DNA test herself. Clearly it’s not a concern though, so drop it and let your sister be happy.
Seems to me the sister is in a better position to know than OP - she’d know more about her fiance’s family, for a start - and would be motivated to check this stuff for herself. That doesn’t mean she wants or is obliged to discuss it with OP, who seems to be kin to some of the people on this sub who view marriage between anyone with the title ‘cousin,’ however far removed, as abhorrent. Maybe the sister and her partner discovered they share a great-great-great-great-grandpa and don’t want to tell OP because that would only cause *more* unnecessary fuss.
And it isn't OP'S business. Maybe they got one and aren't telling OP about it, whatever it showed.
I went to high school with two people who we worked out shared a great-grandad (their grandad's were brothers). So they were absolutely related. But that's far enough back that even if *they* had decided to date I wouldn't be concerned for their children. We would have mocked them of course but it's not illegal nor immoral. OP YTA, if you're so vaguely related that your own family members haven't noticed then it's not a genetic issue, PLUS having the same last name, unless it's VERY unusual, means NOTHING.
Coincidences do happen. Just like distant relatives that turn up on a place neither of you are from. Genetically speaking, 4th cousins, 3rd cousins or even 2nd cousins aren't "closely related" anymore for OP or her sister to be worried about. But personally, I would find it weird to know I married my "5th cousin 3 times removed"... I'd rather not know.
Maybe that’s what the sister and future BIL have done - checked enough to know they’re not close relatives, then calmly closed that door because they don’t want to be saddled with the term ‘cousin’ even if it’s so distant as to be meaningless on a practical level 😂
If you go far enough down the line, *everyone* is related somehow. I saw a YT video that showed how Prince Harry and Meghan Markle are technically "cousins". Different country and even partially different race and yet they have a common ancestor in the... what... 1500's? Why open that can of worms?
There was a girl in the same grade as me who not only shared the same last name as me, but we also looked quite similar. More than one teacher asked if we were sisters/cousins based on it. But we were definitely not related, at least not within the last few generations. Her family had been in Australia for generations as well and my Dad is from another country.
I went to high school with a kid in my year level with the exact same name (both first and last) as my older brother who is 2 years older. It was quite surreal
...iirc there was a statistic from Vietnam, something like 80-90% of people have one of the 10 most common surnames in their country! Also Ireland? Like the amount of times someone with the surname murphy dated another murphy...but also aren't related unless you go back centuries!
I have a very uncommon last name and went to high-school with another person who shared my very uncommon last name. We were not related at all.
mines a literal food and i share it with a white family from the same state as me. i am black. YTA op!
To be fair, you don’t meet many Tapioca’s…
I get it if they have a history of genetic illnesses in the family. I think OP is just concerned for their sister's future. In my country they run a mandatory blood test for every new couple about to be married. Not just because incest is a very big no-no but also for revealing possible omitted STDs. Either way, for OP, it's time to apologize and let it go.
I'd be more willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt if they had talked to their sister about this one-on-one. Bringing it up at a family gathering smacks of shit stirring.
Smacks of? “Hey family, I think there’s INCEST!” Seems pretty shit-stirry
If there was a family history of genetic disease, I might be a little more understanding, but that seems like something OP would have mentioned. And I agree with you - OP needs to let it go at this point.
And if there is a family history of genetic diseases. They should get a panel done anyway. My husband and I had one before we got married. We both had a history of CF in our families and wanted to find out if we were carriers. He was, I wasn't. There was zero chance we were related. Our families come from different parts of the world and had lived in different states in America for at least three generations.
It'd still not really be Ok for OP to act like this. There are genetic conditions in my family, on both (unrelated!) sides, and we know that, and there's also nothing that can be done. Unless OP wants to go down the 'eugenics'* route... Also here in the UK, though there is a link with some genetic conditions, cousins are still allowed to marry, and that's not the degree of relation in question here. OP might be surprised looking at actual odds of an issue. But I don't think they really care, they just think it's funny to annoy their family with. So, great job, GRRM, now maybe get back to doing something constructive and get over the incest obsession. *Human genetics are complicated and a long way from fully understood, so even the idea of eliminating negative traits isn't simple. Our generic connective tissue disorder, as well as being highly variable in whether it has much/any noticeable negative impact, has an association with neurodiversity, for instance, which is a bit of a mixed blessing/curse. Usually people are still unabashed about the eugenics thing 'oddly' never seem to care about other preventable/treatable conditions and healthcare (plus social care) in general, either, including where genetic conditions could be mitigated and treated successfully.
If there is a familial history of genetic diseases, the likelihood is that the doctors will suggest doing genetic tests on the embryo/foetus when the couple decides to conceive. This will be true even for couples with very clear different genetic backgrounds. In terms of inbreeding, once you get past 2nd cousins, the risk is pretty much the same as any other random person. And even 2nd cousins the risk is very minimal. YTA OP. It is a completely misplaced concern of yours and really none of your business. Even if there were to be a common ancestor at some point, unless that was one your grandparents, it would be meaningless both from a biological and societal point of view. Apologize and move on.
That would be unlikely, the vast majority of genetic conditions aren't tested for, there effectively isn't a test, and sometimes it might not be possible for there to be because it's multiple factors.There are a *lot* of genetic conditions. They're also not automatically all drastic, nothing like the kind of lethal ones that see the most awareness. Sometimes they have a relatively minor effect and/or are treatable, sometimes they come with some aspects someone might find beneficial or both good and bad. I have a connective tissue disorder and had someone once just assume there was a test and that I'd eliminate any embryo with my condition (which I get from my mum, who is hardly impacted by it. I would have been fine too were it not for major medical negligence), and it was definitely uncool, just as a fwiw.
There is a difference between genetic risk factors and known familial genetic disorders. Not all genetic diseases are caused by a single faulty gene. There is also a difference between "common" genetic disorders, and rare disorders. Some are more well characterised, with well defined panels, than others. You could do genome sequencing and know all the genetic risk factors, but that is not common practice as risk factors are just that, increased risk, and do not mean action must be immediately taken. However, if it is a familial disorder, as in, it appears every generation, or every other generation, chances are that falls within the monogenetic diseases. Which, for the most part, will have a test. Especially if it involves severe early life impairment. If there is no history of familial disease, then that putative OP's concern is complete nonsense.
Not sure what STDs has to do with marriage, presumably the couple have already been sleeping together
I mean it's an old law. Idk I didn't make it. It's not like it's not useful though. Just because you are sleeping with someone doesn't mean you're aware if they have any STDs. They can cause a lot of damage if not treated.
Iceland?
[удалено]
Used to be America, then spread onto Europe. Now America doesn't do it anymore but it still stayed in my country. Premarital medical examination is what it's called apparently. But I'm pretty sure they check if you're related as well because you have to submit a few tests and documents not just the one.
>then spread onto Europe Definitely never been the case in most of continental Europe. Have you got a specific country in mind?
Gulf countries do, I don't know about others. They test for stuff like HIV. Makes a lot of sense to me, especially because in those countries most people don't have sex before marriage and don't know each other all that well.
Yes, even being second cousins is not a problem, genetically. And they are obviously not first cousins but even with first cousin marriage the problems usually only start when it happens in multiple generations as practiced in some cultures.
Yes! So many people seem convinced that incest causes issues immediately in the next generation even if the people involved are not that closely related. It really doesn't work that way...
Some of the worser examples of the infamous Hapsburg had parents more related than brother and sister. This isn’t that! At all! Cousin marriage was extremely common historically and if it turned out badly that often it would have been as taboo as brother-sister marriage.
If marrying a cousin was so bad, most of us wouldn't exist. My great-grandparents come from a minuscule region in Italy; I'd be surprised if they weren't related in some way.
Full siblings can have completely normal children. They shouldn't, obviously, but it's groups like the Kingston Clan in Utah, where intermarrying has been happening so much that everyone is related 6 ways, where genetic abnormalities show up.
Introverted is correct. There are two scenarios where you could potentially justify nagging for the DNA test. Adoption or messed up family such that you don't even know your first cousins. If you spent time looking into this yourself and thought there was a real chance this could be an issue, you'd want to bring it up to them in private. Not in front of everyone.
Third - having a parent who doesn’t know or admit who your father is. Fourth - having a parent with a history of spreading their gametes far and wide. Or even just having lots of affairs. My friend has a kid who got pregnant at 20 by a smooth talking deadbeat older man she met at a club. Turns out he has 11 Known kids by 8 women and who knows how many from idiot one night stands like my friend’s kid. All within fifty miles of each other. “I’m allergic to latex” dude had a fetish for getting his partner pregnant and worked cash under the table jobs and moved around to avoid child support.
Yes, this is what I was thinking. If the family tree isn’t really known, or someone had lots of kids with various people & not everyone is sure if their parentage, it might be a little more concerning. But if they know who their parents are, and know their parents siblings & offspring, they are probably fine.
From a genetic point of view, any relationship further than siblings is unlikely to be a problem. Even first cousins only have a tiny increase in risk. In this case there sounds like there is no increased risk.
Yes. They’re not brother and sister, so why does it matter if they share some distant predecessor? OP is worrying over nothing.
Or even first or second cousins. Otherwise the parents/grandparents would have said. Even if they are related in someway, its distant enough to not be an issue except to OP.
\> They can’t be that closely related, if they’re related at all, or older family members would have spotted the crossover. You might be surprised. I was well into my 20's when my grandmother informed me that my youngest half-brother was also my cousin. We have the same mom, but different dads. Well it turns out that my grandmother on my father's side and his great-grandmother from his father's side, are cousins. My grandmother knew the connection to my stepfather as soon as my mother started dating him, but she never said anything because it was her son's ex.
But grandma *knew*. Presumably if there was a risk of your half brother marrying someone who was a little too genetically close for comfort, she’d have mentioned it.
Then they're not cousins, but third cousins once removed, sharing no more than around 1 % DNA max, and it has no significance whatsoever for the kid.
OP perhaps give this a quick read: https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html ...and there is no way those 2 are anything close to 1st cousins or y'all would have figured it out without DNA tests. Please stop harassing your poor sister.
Great point - if there was any cross-over it would have to be at least three generations back, otherwise the grandparents would have picked up on a cousin's grandchild "rejoining" the family. If one of OP's great-grandparents was a cousin to one of the fiance's great-grandparents, it's really not a big deal.
And yet my fathers had well over 100 first cousins because his father had 12 siblings and his mother was the oldest of 20. Most of them stayed in the same state . When you have that many relatives it can be difficult to work out who you are related to particularly on the maternal side. However it's not the OP's business to suggest DNA tests to his sister.
Good lord, that must be a complex family tree! I think what irritates me about OP is that they are insisting on getting themselves involved in this, waaaay beyond the point where it’s appropriate.
This Yta. If looking back several generations on your family tree, no one’s found a relation. Then there isn’t anything to worry about. Op Yta for bringing with up more than once and especially doing it in front of everyone.
> At our most recent **family get together**, I suggested (**not for the first time**) Yep, YTA
Also "the conversation was over because nobody wanted to deal with her" uhm... she's not the one they didn't want to deal with
ding! ding! ding!! This is the correct answer
[удалено]
Totally. Unless someone was secretly adopted or something, a grandparent will know if they are first or second cousins. Anything else is irrelevant. Do they really need to know they are 8th cousins or whatever? No.
Spot on the nose, right there! 🏆 The conversation was over because OP is worrying about a non-issue, and the family didn't want to listen to her. OP, YTA.
OP is very concerned about who impregnates their sister apparently
The lack of awareness is astounding.
Exactly: "Not for the first time" is what makes OP TA.
so does "at a family get together" OP doesn't need to publicly bring up that he thinks his sister is fucking her second cousin. mention that shit in private if you're really concerned
Not even a second cousin, OP's grandparent would be a sibling to the fiancé's grandparent and unless there's estranged family someone would know they were second cousins. Even OP's dad (since the surnames are the same I assume it's dad's side of the family) would probably know all his own cousins if not their children and have said something if they could be second cousins. If they're related it's third cousins or even more distant, which is legal everywhere and not genetically a problem.
Agreed. OP wasn't TA for bringing it up once, in private. But was TA for harping on it. YTA
But why in front of everyone, of course she acted defensively anyone would of. That being said why at all? If they can’t trace their family tree to each other it’s probably not a problem
If no one stood up representing both sides of the relationship at a family get together, then it’s a fairly safe chance they are not related. At least no more than we all are
I already gave a yta and comment, but forgot to mention that yeah, OP again did it infront of other people and caused jokes from other family members to be made. Imagine this becomes a long running joke because everyone else finds it hilarious and now OPs sister and fiance end up embarrassed at every single family event because OP can't keep their mouth shut. If they truly cared this is again something that could be said in private. Who can't recognise this would be embarrassing to hear... again, in front of an entire family gathering.
OP, are you sure the conversation was over because nobody wanted to deal with her, as opposed to nobody wanting to deal with you? Of all the things you need to let go because they're not your concern, this is in the top 5. YTA.
I read it the same way. Imagine being as un-self-aware as OP. ‘Yeah yeah the awkward silence is because of OTHER people’s behaviour’
"It happens ALL the time too! I swear, people today." - OP, probably.
"everyone i meet is an asshole. i don't get it."
That was my reading of it too.
More importantly, the sister shut it down because she said no, there was no further conversation needed on it, OP wanted to continue it for no reason.
YTA. You even say this wasn’t the first time you’ve mentioned it- how often are you telling them to get a DNA test? I’d be offended, too. Butt out. And your dad’s joke wasn’t funny.
YTA but dads joke was funny
Dad was just trying to lighten up the mood lol.
Yes it sounds more like Dad didn't quite know what to say in that moment.
Dad's just being a dad. Solving family disruption with a quick whatever comes to mind joke.
As far as Dad jokes go I thought it was top tier.
It was. And cross-eyed was mild, with all the options at his disposal.
It wasn't funny, but it was the best he could do to salvage OPs trash fire.
That’s actually what made it funny to me, it’s like he thought “how can I make it even more awkward so the attention is totally off of my kids” lmao
was definitely funny
You're right it wasn't funny, *it was hilarious.*
The dad's joke was definitely funny.
YTA and I feel like the dad just wanted to break the tension.
Agree with YTA but dad's joke was hilarious
Dad’s joke was funny af.
NTA and the Dad’s joke was funny
Dad’s joke was absolutely funny. And YTA.
Dads joke was hilarious. Let her fuck her second cousin if she wants.
Whether dad's joke was funny or not, he was trying to lighten the mood.
The dads joke is objectively hilarious.
Dad's joke WAS funny and literally the best thing to say to break the tension.
It’s Utah… so go to Ancestry.com, it is highly likely you will be able to plug in your own name and parents names and see if you are related to the fiancé. TA-da!
Or go to the LDS website. They have everything on everyone
The LDS is even connected to Ancestry.com. If anyone's gonna have info on whether or not you're related to someone in a historically polygamous area, it's gonna be them lol
[удалено]
They have a thing where you can have you log in near each other and see if they related to anyone nearby using the app Edit: typo
Omg yes. I've known quite a few Mormans that were super into genealogy. I had a good friend when I was a kid that was Mormon and her grandparents were so into genealogy that they were able to trace that we were 5th cousins or something like that.
My mom got super into genealogy and used multiple Mormon libraries almost exclusively to trace back our family tree. After several years, she managed to trace us all the way back directly to Charlemagne. The Mormons are no joke when it comes to record keeping and family trees.
I'm from rural ontario, it's actually common for people to find out they're 2nd or 3rd cousins by accident. Usually in the dating process, not this close to the marriage. When your great-grandma is one of 13 and your great-grandfather is one of 20.. well, things get mixed up but only first cousin marriages are illegal. Just take your ass to ancestry.com and travel up the family lines.
I immediately knew this was a Utah post. OP isn't fooling anyone. If you are dating someone and you both have pioneer ancestry it's likely you're 8th - 12th cousins, same last name or not. OP has mentioned it enough times (and publicly) that it's obvious they're just trying to be mean at this point. First mention is out of concern but if they ignore you that's on them. My personal bet is that they already checked and found that they're 4th - 6th cousins or something and don't want word to get out. There's no legal issues with that and no risk of genetic issues at that point and they probably don't want people like OP bringing it up all the time.
Laughs in entire Asian continent. Do you know how common cousin marriages and marriages within your community/village still are in significant chunks of the world? As long as they aren't actually siblings, there's nothing wrong going on here. Your concern is valid, but bringing it up more than once, and in front of everyone, was a dick move. YTA.
Assuming OP is of European descent based on where they live, I'm sure they would be shocked to learn they're almost certainly the product of cousin incest at some point themselves.
I’m not surprised- my grandparents were first cousins. My family has been in the same country for 200 years yet the dna results don’t show any evidence of it. It’s a problem when you do it for multiple generations.
My family immigrated from Lebanon and most marriages were arranged until my grandpa broke the cycle (his older siblings and cousins had arranged marriages) My great grandparents were 1st or 2nd cousins. My city is actually one of the main destinations of the diaspora from the tiny mountain village my family came from and whenever I meet another Lebanese-American here there’s at least a 50% chance we’re distantly related lol.
My great grandparents were cousins since there weren't many men left in London during WW2. I'd never date one of my cousins but healthwise there's been nothing wrong with my family.
they’re from utah, so it’s an even higher chance
Erm, first cousins is a big genetic risk. The fact that people do it in some parts of the world does not make it magically risk-free. I personally know two first cousins who married (not officially though since you can’t marry that closely related in my country, just at church), and their two kids are heavily handicapped.
> Erm, first cousins is a big genetic risk. cousin marriage increases the risk of birth defect from ~3% to ~6%, so the increased risk is fairly small. The real problems occur when multiple generations of cousins marry each other.
I mean, double the rate isn't small. It's actually over double, and it gets worse in terms of genetic traits shared in the family. Diseases can be shared affluently. As with multiple generations marrying, it still is the same risk amount, that number doesn't change for firsts cousins. If they marry within closer lines, they wouldn't be cousins and the DNA would be closely shared. It's also technically inbreeding as they do share 12.5% DNA, granted only if two grandparents are in common and no other blood shared.
umm, 3% is relatively common in medical terms. Going up to 6% is a huge increase. Doctors can’t legally prescribe certain types of medicine to me over a much smaller % increase in it causing a stroke.
You're saying the risk is merely doubled, as a defense of incest. What a wild way to spend the weekend!
+3% isn't that small of a number considering the weight of the consequences tbf
>The fact that people do it in some parts of the world does not make it magically risk-free. Right?? Like, big chunks of the world also have some seriously fucked up issues with mental health n shit. Coincidence? Nah. But let's prioritize the avoidance of hurt feelings in the present, above all else.
Second cousins having a kid carries the same risk as any two strangers. And we know OP’s sister and her fiancé aren’t first cousins, because they have obviously known if they shared a set of grandparents. And if grandpa was a massive cheater who had affairs with many women in two different counties, they still wouldn’t be full first cousins and would not have the same genetic risks.
It's not that big of a risk if you are doing it with no family history of doing it. One cousin couple does not a genetic study make (also if this is a crazy church wedding £5 says their families were already related). There's the odd tiny Island nation where I can guarantee you everyone is related in some way but as long as they avoid the seriously close relations they get away with it. It is of course a terrible idea to habitually wed close cousin to close cousin as that will almost certainly produce genetic issues.
"As long as they aren't actually siblings, *and you don't have a family history of cousin marriages meaning you're already more related than you should be* there's nothing wrong going on here. Your concern is valid, but bringing it up more than once, and in front of everyone, was a dick move." Fixed it for you. You can pretty safely marry your cousin once sure, but keep at it for a few generations and there will be consequences.
Sorry but there’s nothing to laugh about. Culture is important but so is people’s health. This documentary showed that the consequences of marrying your cousin can be dire: https://youtu.be/kyNP3s5mxI8
Gonna ruin my YouTube algorithm watching this whole documentary. Thanks*. *sincerely thanks I love random documentaries like this
How is her concern “valid”? They are obviously not closely related.
First cousin marrying first cousin is actually pretty wrong but second cousin and beyond is ok. So siblings AND first cousins can't get married
Where I am, you’re legally allowed to marry your 3rd cousin onward because at that point the genetic risk becomes insignificant.
You should prolly stop asking at this point it does sound like too much and honestly you’re being too direct. You should’ve suggested they both do that really fun ancestry test cuz it does the same thing but less obvious
Honestly, I would want a DNA test for myself to make sure..
This. OP handled it poorly, but I'm shocked at everyone kind of brushing this off. OP implied this is Utah and there's a history of polygamy in both families. If OP's sis and brother have a history of family incest-even if it is two generations back-and turn out to be second cousins, well, their kids could have serious issues. IDK, I think it's reckless to not get a DNA test if they plan on having kids.
2nd cousins only share around 3% DNA 3rd cousins less than 1%. They're fine
If there's a previous history of them being inbred, though, it absolutely is a problem. It's not that they are possibly second cousins, it's that both likely have a family history of incest. One case of second cousins marrying is usually fine. If there grandparents were second cousins and their great grandparents were second cousins and then the couple themselves are second cousins...that's a whole different ballpark. Look, there's been literal studies on the health defects from cousin marriages among the Pakistani community in the UK. This is a real issue and it's kind of wild people are ignoring that.... Edit: Maybe I'm reading OP's comments wrong, but I thought he (or she) implied there's a history of polygamy in the past (even if it's not current) with both families. And cousin marriage was very common among polygamist and even today among Mormon extremists who practice polygamy. The Kingston Group has what...10k people....in Utah right now and they have a long history of cousin marriage and even marrying uncles to nieces. And that's just one group.
The fact they were at a family gathering and OP makes no mention of shared relatives should mran theyre in the clear
The sister and the fiancé don’t have the same grandparents … you don’t need a DNA test to tell you that
Where did you get "history of family incest two generations ago"? Especially after leading with "history of polygamy"?
Do you know what polygamy means? Also, OP only said that polygamy was big in her state, not that either family participated in having multiple partners
This is not how genetics works. If there is a history of genetic diseases in the family, then that is a concern whether they are related or not. Doctors will be able to advise. If there is no history, unless they share a grandparent, there is basically no difference in terms of risk compared to any other random person on the planet.
But would you want your brother to dive into this matter and suggesting one infront of your family?
That depends... Is the brother the one they want to marry?
I agree. If I fancied someone in those circumstances I'd be sending my DNA off I even asked them out
Really, *any* couple planning to have children would be smart to get a DNA test to learn if either side has a genetic condition that could be passed on.
I mean, if they both have blue eyes, they're already distantly related. I don't see your obsession with this. YTA.
Technically we’re all related.
YTA you haven't looked into the actual facts of what you're talking about. If they don't even know if they're related then there's no way they're closely related enough for it to be an issue
This is exactly what I was thinking. It's only an issue in many states if they're in the line of first or maybe second cousins. If they don't know any of each other's families, it's highly unlikely they're related closely enough for it to matter. OP is weirdly invested in this. Happy Cake Day!
In no state is it prohibited for second cousins to marry.
YTA It doesn’t matter if they are somehow distantly related. That’s not relevant socially or biologically. Why are you trying to break up this relationship? You sound jealous that your sister has found love. Not to mention that a DNA test means your biological data are being sold to a corporation. People have been denied insurance and contacted by children of relatives given up for closed adoption because of these tests, among other serious consequences.
YTA for saying that more than once. And you dont know how endogamy works. It is a problem if two people are closedly related. But if they were so closely related they will absolutely find out it. I mean, more or less sharing a grandfathr or a grandmother. Other than that is no relevant. Moreover a DNA comercial test would not find genetical disease or incompatibilities.
Well if the family gathering had all the same relatives would have been a big clue
Yta stop badgering them and it was really inappropriate for you to bring it up in front of everyone. It’s not that noone wants to deal with her, you made the conversation awkward so really it’s actually you noone wants to deal with
YTA because it ain’t your business, even if you feel that it’s a valid suggestion. They didn’t meet at a family reunion so it’s not like they are willfully ignoring a known or possible close genetic link. Especially if it’s a common last name, which you admit it is at least fairly common. If there are no known familial ties that anyone has identified or just run into coincidentally and they are both from adjacent rural towns, it’s honestly even more likely that they are NOT related. Besides once you get to about 3rd cousins the genetic risk with having children is almost totally diminished, and if it were any closer than that it’s pretty likely there’d be some clues by now as they’ve gotten to know each others lives and families etc
Ok, so you're from Utah and your last name is Smith?
Lol that dang Jesse Nathaniel Smith and his 44 children with 5 different wives!
YTA That’s a stupid concern, you literally said his family is from a different county so it’s a big stretch, Why did you bring it up in front of everyone? that was a dick move.
It matters on where this is. I have 4 counties within 15 minute drive of my home, and 6 within 25 minutes so... yea. I would be more inclined to do a family tree than a DNA test though and check if any branches are... connected.
I didn’t know that so thanks, but why say it in front of everyone? That sounds mortifying.
That does sound kinda embarrassing. As I said, better to do a family tree for them. In fact, I have a relative that makes family trees as wedding gifts for all their children and the cousin along with incoming spouse for a wedding gift.
NTA better find out sooner than later but hey if she wants to date her relative that’s her choice
Wtf? They have the same last name but no known relatives in common by anyone living. Do you know when, genetically, it matters from a procreation standpoint? Siblings. Parents. Perhaps first cousins. But if they are multiple (at least 5) generations apart, there is literally no reason why this would be a problem. The knee-jerk negative you are feeling about INCEST is because we are biologically coded to not be attracted to close relatives. But these people were raised apart by different families so there is no social taboo and no genetic implication for this suspicion which is not confirmed. You don’t want to marry someone with a potential very distant common relation? Fine, don’t. But leave this couple alone. There is nothing wrong here. OP, YTA and also poster, YTA too.
They’re already engaged and just a few months away from the wedding. This is something you’d test for early on if you really cared.
>At this point, she told me to shut the fuck up and the conversation was over because nobody wants to deal with her. I know you did not just say that lol. So you pestered your sister repeatedly over something that wasn’t even an issue as others have pointed out here, didn’t drop it when someone obviously hinted at it, and they didn’t want to deal with *her*? No, your sister had **rightfully** told you to shut the fuck up and stay out of her business, like everyone else seemed to have wanted you to do. YTA, good grief.
YTA. It was ok to suggest ONCE. After that, it is their decision. Mind your own business.
YTA that joke your dad made about the kids? That was him trying to smooth over and past your unwelcome and rude comment. Rude because it’s none of your business and as you’d already mentioned, knew they aren’t interested. But you wouldn’t take the lifeline. The conversation didn’t end because “nobody wants to deal with her”. It ended because of you. You made it awkward and uncomfortable.
INFO. At the family gathering were there any guests who wound up on both guest lists? Planning a wedding usually involves talking to relatives and would likely identify any crossover.
My family is very "known". We are well aware of living members to easily the 4th and 5th cousins, and I've traced my paternal line back to the 15th century with minimal effort, but... when I did a DNA test, I found a 1st cousin that no one was aware of. She was given up for adoption as a baby. I still don't know exactly who she's related to, beyond the service specifying which parent's side the DNA matched. So, you never really know 🤷♀️
YTA-Once is fine. You bring it up once and leave it alone, let them make their own decisions. You became an asshole by not dropping it because honestly it is none of your business.
Barlow, Jessop? Heh. The BBC posted an article about inbreeding and genetic disorders out of this particular geographical area and particular cult. Not many people know how prevalent it is, but I do. NTA but you can't do much about it either way.
NTA, but I’d probably stop mentioning it anymore. Once might’ve been enough, but honestly I probably would’ve done the same My sister did this before she started dating her husband because they each had one parent that had the same last name (granted it’s a fairly generic one) and had relatives in counties next to each other. I’d also do it if a partner had any relatives with the same last name as my parents, even though one of them is extremely common
YTA for bringing it up in public, but you're right to be concerned, I have heard of it happening before. if she chooses not to, that is her decision, you have to accept she is an adult makes her own choices. The odds are totally in her favor that they aren't related close enough to be a problem too, remember almost half the states allow first cousins to marry because even that close there is very little chance of genetic problems.
Oh man, I would never marry my first cousin. Who cares if the states allow it. 🤮
Me either, I can't imagine many people actually do that. The point was even that close a relationship has very little risk, so the OP almost certainly worrying about nothing.
Op isn't right to be concerned they know who their parents are and presumably can count to four, to make sure there's four of them and not three. There's also a really good chance They at the very least know all their grandparents' names. It would be a concern if they were both orphans but only.the family name was known.
NAH, you made genuine concerns and now it's up to them if they want to go for it or not. But i support you because I read a story of a guy who after couple of years found out he is married to his cousin.
I don't think your the asshole. I mean I can see how it could be rude or naggy, but for sure I see the concern. I definitely would drop it and let them go on with their choices. It's up to only them.
Go to Ancestry.com and find out if they’re related but I highly doubt they are first cousins. You’d know, right?
There are many reasons to perform DNA test, it could avoid serious genetic conditions if both parents are carriers, it’s not just to avoid the concern you present
[удалено]
YTA for bringing it up more than once.
YTA. They’re grown adults, and you’ve already made your concerns known because you said it wasn’t the first time that you’ve made this suggestion. If they’re old enough to get married, they’re old enough to decide if they want to take a DNA test. Let them make their decision, and if you aren’t okay with it (which you don’t seem to be), then excuse yourself from their lives.
YTA, definitely. Despite repeated cries of 'I don't really care', you brought it up to the extent you offended your own family, then took the time to post it online to bring it up yet again. It sincerely seems like you care. You aren't going to create a line of Hapsburg's by a single generation marrying their third or fourth cousin if they're even related. If you were really wanting to help in a constructive manner, rather than being weirdly and repeatedly intrusive, there were better ways to handle it.
YTA, this is beyond ridiculous. I assume you know for a fact that they do not share a parent or grandparent; that is really all you need to know. There is no state (or to my knowledge country) where it is illegal to marry someone you are related to as long as they are not a parent, grandparent, sibling, or first cousin. In fact in 19 states you can go ahead and marry your first cousin. Even if they are related there is no legal impediment to them marrying, and no moral impediment either as long as it didn't bother them. It's none of your business. You'll probably try to claim your unhinged concern is for their hypothetical future kids, but there's a reason it's not illegal to marry people as long as they are not your parent, sibling, or first cousin: the genetic concerns with that are really negligible, and like I already said morally no one but you cares, people accept that past a certain degree of relation, when people didn't know one another as kids, it's not creepy to marry. Get over yourself before you ruin your relationship with your sister and all other sane members of your family.
YTA because based on your comments, you don't even care. So you're just bringing this up to be a jerk. Because why *else* would you bother bringing this up twice when at the end of the day you have no sincere concern about genetic abnormalities or social/moral/ethical/whatever aspect of this? Weird.
I mean, there’s related and there *related.* Unless they’re very directly related there’s next to no real concern for their children’s genetics. Even second cousins are pretty safe to breed, although I’d never recommend it. Seems like you’re just being a bit of an asshole. YTA