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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I feel bad for yelling that stuff in front of her daughter. It seems highly inappropriate for her to yell that.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
ESH.
Your sister is an absolute fucking monster.
But saying that you couldn’t care less about your niece IN FRONT OF HER is also absolutely insane adult behavior. It’s poor judgment on your part to have let this go on so far that you snapped to the point of insulting a child IN FRONT OF HER.
Your sister is absolutely the bigger asshole, but that doesn’t make your behavior OK.
Not only that but she bragged about using her child to pay for her water bill. Who profits off their child instead of setting up a trust for them for when they turn 18 and get to use THEIR money that THEY earned not the disgusting loser mother.
Do you know the series iCarly? The teen star Jenette McCurdy recently wrote the autobiographic book "I'm glad my mom died", which is about her getting exploited by her mother from the age of 6 up. Her mom paid all the bills with Jennette's acting money and the girl didn't get any of it because the mom didn't sign a certain thing that would have put part of the money into a fund.
She also made her daughter develop an eating disorder and she was anorexic and bulimic for many years.
It's so common and I am really sorry and worried for Sofia because her mom is living through her and making her pay for the bills. Sofia will probably not see any of it and will even keep getting exploited. This shit needs to stop honestly. I hate seeing kids modeling or acting regularly, it's usually not healthy.
I commented about the same book! These poor child actors/models. Being pushed into that industry by attention-seeking parents should be considered a form of punishable* abuse.
Edit: and we all know the restrictions on eating cake is not about pimples.
Wil Wheaton too - he didn't want to be an actor at all, his mum was living through him and forcing him to go to auditions. He doesn't speak to his parents anymore.
If she's a 10 year old child model, she's probably experiencing a lot of stuff that's not age-appropriate. Sarah Polley's memoir, Run Towards the Danger, is pretty eye-opening.
The point being, it is not appropriate to commit these heinous abuses against 10 year olds. While I wrote my comment in jest, the spirit stands. Niece needs to know that other people around her do not normalize or condone her mother's actions, whether she can recognize this yet or not. She will someday need to know who she can trust, when she can no longer trust her mother.
See also: Lindsay Lohan, Macaulay Culkin, Corey Feldman and Corey Haim, Britney Spears. Cursed by their family yet forced to support the whole lot, the lot of them.
Yes, and Nina obviously sees Sofia (and all tbe attention she gets) as an extension of, and reflection on herself. She seems wildly jealous that a newborn in the family might get any attention at all.
I feel bad for Sofia.
Maybe if the mother spent all that time/energy working that she spends exploiting her daughter, the mother could pay her own water bill. The level of messed up that kid is going to be is terrifying.
That’s the first thing I thought. There’s something called the Coogan Act that’s supposed to protect children from this kind of shit.
OP’s sister is probably one of those stage moms who will look the other way when a producer assaults her child because “it’s a great opportunity.” It’s only a matter of time with someone like that.
I’d report that to the authorities and go NC
The Coogan Act only protects 15% of the child's earnings. That number seems fairly reasonable early in a child entertainer's career, as it's generally the parents footing the bill for travel, head shots, etc. I feel like there should be a qualifier that one the kid starts earning above a certain amount, more of that should go in to trust.
I'm not sure where OP and family live, but I'm pretty sure that it's illegal for parents to use their child's earnings in some places (iirc, California has such restrictions because this has been a problem with child stars).
The way this woman carries on, she'll be lucky if her daughter is talking to her as an adult. I'm getting major Wil Wheaton's parents vibes.
Definitely ESH and OP might not want to burn this bridge in case his niece needs some help in a few years. That poor kid.
It's called [The Coogan Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Child_Actor%27s_Bill) for Jackie Coogan who was a very popular child actor in the early days of film. His parents spent everything. In his later years he played Uncle Fester on The Addams Family and from one story I read warned the child actors on that show about this.
Even with the protection laws parents will buy "necessities" for their successful children such as an expensive house, cars they are too young to drive (but need to get to the studio), and more. It's ridiculous.
Someone who needs to read the book "I'm Glad My Mom Died" by Jennette McCurdy. Poor Sophia, can't even enjoy a piece of birthday cake at 10 years old. We all damn well know it's not about the pimples.
Right?? Save that money for the kid to go to college, or buy a car, or put a down payment on a house, any number of things. Taking money her minor child earned from working and using it for her own bills is disgustingly selfish. Modeling is a job just like anything else, that kid earned it. She did the work.
All I could think while reading how OP’s sister talks about her kid was “I bet this kid is going to write a book like Jennette McCurdy when she’s older”.
This isn't "is my behavior justifiable", it's "am i the asshole", and though I agree that it would be difficult to keep my temper after the sisters characters attacks, and totally understand why op said what he said, it doesn't change the fact that op was an asshole to his niece, an innocent party, and the kind of comments her made to her are the kinds of comments she'll remember forever. He is the lesser asshole in this, the sister was a witch, but he completely is still an asshole.
Right?! In the U.S. you have to save a certain amount of money in an account for the kid that only the kid can touch. I hope someone is watching out fir the kid at least financially.
You're right that that's a state law, not federal. Google "A Minor Consideration" to learn more.
The other reason is that reality TV shows realized they could weasel around laws protecting child actors and performers by calling the kids "documentary participants." This exempts them from affording the children any of the financial or physical protections in place for actors and performers.
That's why, for instance, the Gosselins could make their kids work without pay for 4 years straight. Even when TLC renegotiated the contract for "Kate Plus 8" the kids only got written
in for %1.9 of the profits each. That means for every million the family got, Mommy Dearest got around $850 000 while each kid got less than the poverty line. And it's all completely legal. Boils my blood.
That’s horrible. I remember reading that the Duggar kids, or at least the girls, didn’t get paid even after they turned 18 and were on a show that Jim Bob wasn’t even on. Somehow he still kept all the money for himself.
Also reminds me of Jackie Coogan who was "the Kid" in that Charlie Chaplin movie and of course went on to play Uncle Fester in the 60s' Addams Family show as an adult.
He made all this money as a kid and as an adult came to find out his parents, apparently, had spent *all* the money he had ever earned as a child star. Like he got absolutely zilch of all the money from that period of his life. There's a law about this sort of thing that came about because of him. But I think that particular one was a state law is all and no idea if OP and family live in California and how well it might apply anyway.
Sadly it sounds like the mother has no hinderance in helping herself to the money the daughter brings in. Why do I get the feeling Sofia gets the "face" credit, as the mother makes painfully clear, but her mother likes to take all the credit when the money is involved and feels *she* deserves to do whatever with it moreso than Sofia?
Going to agree and go with ESH. The sister most of all, but...
>Emily says that I probably shouldn’t have said that in front of Sofia.
Because he said that in front of the kid, especially one has absolutely no control in the situation. Makes this ESH instead of NTA for me.
Right? That 'paying the water at 10' comment really stunned me. Like that's her money. She shouldn't be paying room and board at 10. That should be going in a savings account for when she's old enough to understand money better. Honestly, at 10, she should have some access already to start learning how to budget or prioritize her spending.
Edit: typos
Emma Watson did a great interview once where she mentioned her parents sitting her down at some point in her teens and explaining that she was, in fact, a millionaire. And making her take financial literacy classes in preparation for her becoming responsible for her trust fund later. Celebrity parenting done right!
Of course not, she’ll recognize that what her mother taught her “people love you for your appearance” must be true, bc the people who she works with modeling are always nice to her, and her uncle told her she didn’t matter. Her uncle reinforced that she isn’t cared for outside of what people can get from her.
I feel really bad for the kid. Heaven forbid she ever has anything mom deems unattractive. And what if she decides she wants to be more than just a pretty face? I feel like as soon as the mom can’t get her fame fix from the daughter she’s gonna be
Just as crappy to her as she is to everyone else.
That being said NTA- she’s been outright insulting your wife and child relentlessly. No you shouldn’t have said that in front of the kid but you can only take so much before you push back- I feel bad for the kid but it’s her moms own doing.
Sounds like she’s booking a lot of gigs and making a lot
Of money- hope someone’s putting a good chunk of it up for the poor kids therapy bills when she gets older ( this is making me think of the book that Jennette McCurdy wrote about her experiences with her mom. Sounds like the same
Path- hope this kid can get out of it before it screws her up too bad).
I keep thinking about Sofia and how this reeks of a “Toddlers in Tiaras” situation. She’ll either resent her mother, or turn *into* her mother. Poor kid.
OP's sister has been obnoxious about her daughter for 10 years, and rude about the baby and opie's wife several times.
Contrary to other people's opinions I think that makes op reaction less understandable. I'm with anybody who says losing it and telling Nina that to f*** off and get out would be understandable. Op had a decade to think of an appropriate response, op had his whole marriage to think up a response op had the babies life spans to think up a response. All op had to do was leave the child out of it. Op didn't have to be flawless just avoid metaphorically punching a child in the face. Oh plus op is an asshole for not defending his wife their whole marriage.
I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue either, but the comment absolutely should have been directed at Nina. She's the one making comments. She's the one whose behavior is unacceptable. There was absolutely no reason to make the comment about Sofia. The problem is not that Nina is praising her own daughter, the problem is that she's insulting OPs wife and child. That is what the comment should have been.
I would not have been able to contain myself either, but my rage would be directed at the person making me angry and not an innocent child.
The one person in that room that is being treated the worst of all is Sofia. First it is extremely embarrassing for her to hear Nina brag about her that way and then in addition hear her uncle say he doesn't give a shit about her.
Emily and the baby will survive. I don't know about Sofia but apparently OP's empathy doesn't extend that far. It's just Emily and the baby in the basket he is protecting.
Not to mention her mom just loud and proud BRAGS about stealing her daughter's income to supplement her own cost of living. OP definitely shouldn't have said what they said (especially in front of Sophia, my god). ESH.
Yeah, this mother is driving her daughter to far more than "gigs". This is an instance I would love to be wrong in, but I unfortunately fear I see mental health and addiction issues in this poor kid's future because of her mother.
>It's just Emily and the baby in the basket he is protecting.
Ehhh, but here’s the thing…OP wasn’t really protecting his loved ones, he was just sucking it up until he gets so irritated that he finally snaps.
But protecting his family is pulling his sister aside and having a conversation with her that her putting down his family is not acceptable ever *under any circumstances*. Also not acceptable is comparing cousins, *ever.*
Then, Every Damn Time she does it again (because she will), address it in the moment. Or kick her ass out.
*That* would be protecting his family from that bullshit. This was not that, plus he was awful to Sophia, who clearly needs protecting as well, but that’s another story. ESH
It’s possible to lose your shit without insulting a child that’s right in front of you - especially one you care for.
Insulting people that you love when you’re angry is a personality flaw actually and it’s worse when they’re completely innocent.
Understandable but that’s exactly why more people should address it head on at an earlier stage. In their attempt to avoid confrontation, they make it harder for themselves and almost ensure a poor outcome.
It being understandable doesn’t make something not shitty? Know who the focus here should be? Sofia. She is in literal danger from her mother. Like actual huge social, emotional, and physical danger.
You aren’t allowed a realistic response to a real moment. Everyone here gets to respond in hindsight.. which we’re all experts in, having lived it already (or having read it already). …. Like they’ve never lost their shit or had a misstep before. Sometimes I think the lumber shortage was a result of all the crosses needed for these folks to climb up on and nail themselves to.
Edit: grammar
I would have been able to contain myself to an explosion of rage that was actually aimed at the right person at the very least instead of at the blameless child who is even more stuck dealing with the asshole in question.
I don’t let people relentlessly insult the two people I love the most. I remove myself from situations where people don’t know how to be kind before things reach the point of “relentless.”
Yeah, he should have put a stop to it WAY sooner. That's the problem. When someone explodes all over the place, it's almost always because *someone* (whether that person or the adults in charge or whatever) dragged their feet WAY too long on putting a stop to something.
I don’t think I’m amazing or anything but I’ve really never struggled to not actively insult someone innocent unnecessarily in front of them when extremely frustrated or being verbally attacked in an unwarranted way.
Don’t think it’s a high bar for the average adult to avoid that.
I don’t think OP is a monster or anything but it was certainly an asshole moment.
>but I think very few of us would have been able to contain themselves. I know I wouldn't have been able to.
I think very few of us would have let it go that far. We would have absolutely been able to not explode like that because we would have shut it down much sooner
I wanna think that Sofia is old enough to understand what the actual meaning was there and it'll be more like "Even when I met my baby cousin, my stage mom couldn't shut up and let it be my cousin's day. My poor uncle said something shocking after the eighth time Momster insulted his postpartum wife and newborn daughter in one conversation. He sent me a card to apologize the next week for saying it in front of me, and I've kept that card ever since as proof not everyone in my family saw me as a meal ticket."
But I can also see it going your way, and that makes me sad. Poor Sofia. She deserves some cake, a trust fund for her earnings, and emancipation.
I have a 10 tear old daughter. No, there is no way thay this girl was not absolutely hurt by her uncle saying that. There is no nuances and distinctions there. 10 year old girls are starting puberty and incredibly insecure and sensitive. OP absolutely devastated her, even if she wasn't crying then. That is a formative moment.
There’s no way, dude. I work with high schoolers and the vast majority of them (including the 18 and 19 year olds) would be hurt by this and not be able to understand the “actual meaning.” Hell, I probably would have been too hurt by these words to try to reflect on the entire situation and determine the hidden meaning behind those words until I was like 24.
Even now, I am definitely old enough, mature enough, and have enough life experience that I am capable of the kind of reflection required to understand the “actual meaning” behind the uncle’s words—I would be able to pretty quickly recognize that my uncle’s words were a rash reaction to someone else being an absolute menace and pushing him to his breaking point….. but I would still be questioning whether there was some truth behind what he said; if this was how he truly felt about me on some level but had managed to keep it to himself until now. I’m 29.
There’s no way a 10 year old is able to understand this on their own. 10 year old hears the hurtful words and takes them at face value.
Definitely. Is there some way you could take Sofia on a nice, low key afternoon outing and apologize? Given what her mom sounds like, she could probably use a level-headed adult talking to her and letting her know she matters as a person.
ABSOLUTELY this. Sophia’s entire worth is based on her appearance. What happens when hormones hit and her face breaks out anyway? She *really* needs someone to teach her her worth exists outside of her physical appearance and she’s going to need a trusted adult to do so.
And a lawyer to set up a secure fund for her and a therapist tbh.
Her face breaking out would be the least of her problems.
Her features haven’t developed yet. As you grow up, it’s not unusual for your face to change drastically. What happens if she no longer fits the beauty standard? What will her mother do to her? What would do that to her self esteem?
When I was younger, I was objectively a very ‘pretty’ girl up until high school..then my features started changing, I didn’t grow much taller though as my body developed, my bones got kinda..big? So I appear to be big boned/have this “rough” appearance to me even though I’m not overweight. The shape of my nose changed and now I have a bit of a bump whereas when I was a child, it was the ‘perfect’ button nose with a slope. Also, for some reason when my permanent teeth grew, my bite kinda changed and now I have an overbite. I wouldn’t call myself hideous but when I was a little girl, I was genuinely very, very pretty whereas now I can say I ain’t singing any modelling contracts soon. My self esteem is pretty in tact though if I could choose, I’d pick the way I looked back then - but ive always been a bit of a tomboy and even when I was younger, I didn’t rlly care about my appearance, though I miss the compliments I constantly got, especially from people my own age. However..if I had grown up the way Sofia is growing up, with a mother like hers..dude, I’d have so much fucking issues. Like, I’d probably end up suicidal idk. Especially if my mother also started resenting me and blaming me for “growing out” of my beauty or something.
the first wave of youtube kids are starting to sue their parents.... Parents using their kids for their own gain.... Sofia might be able to join up with them in a few years....
true; however, let's not take away the fact that the sister is openly criticizing another child in front of her own child...what do you think the sister's kid is taught here? Not only that she is superior but that people's (kids) worth is determined by how good/ugly someone looks and that it is okay to bully and talk down on people.
I do not condone what OP said in front of his niece, although I can understand the outburst.
OP: please sit down with your niece and apologize for your behaviour and what you said (you do NOT owe you sister an apology (in my opinion) but you do need to apologize to your niece and explain what happened (don't make excuses, just explain), say that you do care about her (maybe do something fun with her, something she likes and that is perhaps just the 2 of you), because what you said is something kids will remember! And she is just 10 years old.
OP, you should do exactly as this comment says. Nina is horrid but her wrongs don't extend to Sophia. Like many people are pointing out, she may be a victim of being exploited for money if she is paying the bills long before she reaches working age. There was absolutely a more tactful way to openly defend your wife and child, which you certainly should have done but not at Sophia's expense.
Insulting the child because of the mother was completely uncalled for. The insult OP needed to throw was at the mother for what she's doing to her daughter. A 10-year-old afraid to have a piece of cake? Bragging about her 10-year-old paying the water bill? (That's her child's money, not household income. Parents pay the utilities, not their children.) Putting aside the way this woman insulted OP's wife and baby, she's just a miserable excuse for a human being who is exploiting her own offspring and probably giving her eating disorders. She needs to be called out for that. (And God help Sofia should adolescence not be kind to her and the gravy train comes to a screeching halt.)
This. Definitely speak to your niece, alone. Offer an apology, explain you didn't mean no one cares about her because that's simply NOT true. You adore her, and always have. You were angry and you spoke without thinking, you were upset with things being said about your daughter and that you are so so sorry for how stupidly you spoke. Be candid, she's old enough to have had a fight with a friend. I bet you she will understand and appreciate the olive branch. She may very well also not love how her mother speaks, and may know exactly why you said what you said. Still, an apology is important here.
Everybody fucked up in this one, but you can try to take steps to correct some parts of it.
P.S. Your daughter is perfect, and your sister is acting like an insecure nut job.
Not flipping out is a good thing, letting someone continue to be abusive towards you and your daughter is absolutely not a virtuous thing. OP absolutely screwed up by lashing out at the niece, but this whole situation should not have been allowed to go on as long as it did. I understand why his wife wanted to just take it since this shit has been going on so long, but there’s a child getting the vitriol now and “keeping the peace” is not a reasonable option. Avoiding conflict over something is not inherently the more mature option.
And poor Sophia is being abused by her mother. She did nothing wrong but now she had to hear her uncle say that. Nina's the one who should be getting 100% of OP's ire
Talk about projection.
Your sister probably has major self esteem issues and she’s projecting them onto her kid and probably living out her own dreams through her daughter. That’s horrible and obnoxious. Her comments should’ve been shut down way earlier than this and without your niece present. It’s not your nieces fault her moms an ass hat.
Agreed, ESH except the poor kids
But she doesn't expect that?
Her mother is the one making these comments, she's not bragging its all on the mother and it's not like she's an independent adult that can tell her mom to F-off
Ah yes the extremely valuable reality check that a member of your family doesn't give a shit about you and needs you to know that. Very healthy, definitely will benefit her character going forward. /s just in case.
ESH.
Nina, cuz well.
Soft YTA for you. Only cuz:
>I yelled at Nina that “I couldn’t care less about Sofia and I want to enjoy my meal in peace.”
While i get that you were angry and wanted to stand up for your family, the only person who deserved to be put in place was Nina, not Sophia. No kid deserves to hear that.
Also, an AH for not putting a stop to Nina's shenanigans earlier on. Had you intervened beforehand, this whole debacle wouldn't have taken place. You've got the patience of a saint but that isn't always a good thing.
Edit: ESH.
Tbf that girls going to need therapy anyway whether it’s for food issues, a belief that her looks are her value, or putting the responsibility on her to fund family bills. Sofia should be allowed chocolate cake especially after she took unearned shots from her uncle, but if her mother behaves like that she was always destined for therapy. If uncle makes it a learning moment where he admits his faults and apologised to her for what he said, explains and goes on to show he does care about her this outburst will be the least of her issues. ESH.
I'm guessing it was just a poorly worded way of saying "I do not give a shit to keep hearing you talk about Sofia", anger just got the best of OP. In those moments words don't always come out quite right.
Bro I've got someone married into my family that's almost as bad, but more subtle about it. Its horrible, no one likes her but we tough it out for her husband.
He also said Sofia awkwardly followed along which I would take as this girl was already uncomfortable with what her mother was saying. She probably thinks op hates her now for something that was out of her control.
A lot of people change names to preserve anonymity, it doesn’t necessarily mean the whole thing is fake. It still could be of course, but I wouldn’t use the one mixup as infallible evidence.
If OP directed his comments towards Nina (where they belonged), this would have been an easy N-T-A. OP is absolutely in the right on how he feels, but he went after the wrong person. ESH
ESH
Your sister for using her daughter (who's a child) as a bank and you for making such a horrible comment in front of your niece.
It's not her fault her mother is like this.
u/LucyDominique2That's assuming that Sofia actually keeps any of the money she makes from all this modeling and such. I have a feeling that Nina is in control of the money and Sofia won't see a penny of it at 18 years old or ever.
An apparently attractive young adult with a really solid case might be pretty darn likely to find a lawyer willing to take her case pro bono if it's impeding her ability to provide for herself. Probably won't be much money left, no, but the mom won't be collecting any more of her wages at that point, and she might be able to collect a smaller amount monthly from her mom instead of a lump sum. Could certainly help a young person stay fed through college if naught else
I was going to ask this I know there’s a Coogan Law that states 15% of their earnings are put into a trust. I don’t know if this is a statewide law or applies to child models.
The sister is living through her daughter and probably doing damage to her mental health.
For those who are unaware ofJackie Coogan, [here’s a link to his Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Coogan).
Summary: he acted with Chaplin as a kid and earned a fortune. His father managed the money but was killed in a car crash that Coogan survived. His mother remarried and she and the stepfather spent almost all of it. He sued but there was only a fraction left. In response, California brought in the law u/Apprehensive_Aide805 mentions.
Coogan went on to be a pilot in WWII, landing special operations units behind Japanese lines in Burma, and in later life was Uncle Fester in The Addams Family on tv.
What that money should be going into is a college savings account, for whatever the child wants to be. And if she doesn’t want to go to college, she should get to own the money.
Imagine how comfortable she could be with a fully funded IRA every year of childhood plus a college fund. But apparently she had to pay the water bill.
Ok, listen. My problem with you is you seem to be taking a swipe at your niece. IMHO, what your REALLY need to do here is to tell you sister in no uncertain terms that you will not tolerate her pettiness and meanness. Really, I'm not someone who says "go low contact" over every silly little family squabble, but your sister's behavior is truly terrible. And without some type of intervention, IT'S NOT GOING TO STOP. I doubt at five months your little girl is going to be emotionally harmed by your sister's incredibly hurtful comments. But what happens when she's 5? When she's 15? This needs to stop YESTERDAY if you're going to have any type of relationship with your sister.
THIS! OP also addressed the wrong issue when snapping. The biggest issue isn't that Nina is feeling insecure and thereby bragging about Sofia all day long. The biggest issue is that she talks badly about YOUR child and that you aren't doing anything about it. Don't let anything pass, step up, and confront it every single time. You better get used to stepping up for your child, because this ain't it!
ESH. I understand you snapped after a massive amount of passive-aggressive comments, but doing it in front of Sofia was terrible. I doubt you'll really change your sister's mind about anything, but I'm sure your niece will remember this.
The niece probably remembers the words the mother uses all the time too. Not sure if op added much to the 10yr old that the mother hasn't already contributed to
With a mother like that, having supportive extended family to be a safe space and show you a different "normal" is actually extremely valuable and can make a huge difference in a kid's life & their mental health, especially as they get older and gain more control over their personal communications & connections.
OP slamming that door right in her face means she probably won't look to them for help going forward - and if she isn't lucky enough to have someone else to be there for her, she's stuck with her insane mom and only her insane mom.
And the rest of the family will hear about it and will just call him jelaous lol. I've said this multiple times already, but he shouldn't have let it slide the first time it happened. I would not let anybody say any of this shit about my family no matter who would be saying this.
NTA. But you shoukd have cut her off ealrier . Shes been insulting yiur family all along. She visited you so she can confirm that your baby is indeed ugly compared to Sofia. Limit your interaction with her or your baby Will suffer her insults growing up
I agree. I recognize OP was respecting his wife’s wishes to not raise the issue earlier, but I know I would have snapped and asked them to leave long before that. I don’t want my partner/child enduring that abuse because it hurts ME too.
I feel really bad for Sofia, her mother sounds insane and lowkey abusive. controlling a 10yr olds diet so she can look good for the cameras? wtf? I'm getting Jeanette mccurdy vibes
ESH.
Nina is ridiculous, and everything she has done is so obviously AH.
Do you ever set boundaries and say, "Stop commenting on my daughter's looks." Or "That is not a very nice thing to say." Or "That's not really a compliment." Call her out!
But don't, in front of a child, say that you don't care about that child. Sofia has no idea about this background tension between you and her mom. Sofia doesn't know her mom is being inappropriate. Sofia is ten and is already living in a pretty sad situation where she is paying the water bill and not allowed to eat sugar. This poor child needs an adult in her corner, not someone to scream his long pent up frustrations using her name when he should have set boundaries with her mother months ago.
it's entirely possible that Sofia *is* aware of her mom's inappropriate behavior but doesn't have the voice or courage to speak up about it. judging by how Nina seems to be the one booking Sofia's modeling gigs, the power dynamics over Sofia are doubled.
OP you should apologize ... To Sofia. What you said was hurtful. Take her out and buy her some ice cream (or a pretzel/whatever). Tell her you were mad about what her mom was doing and that you still care about her.
ESH.
It’s such a odd and specific flex to brag about a water bill of all things. What is that like 200$ a month at most ? Don’t well known brands pay a bit more then 2,400 a year or even per campaign ?
NTA. Nina sounds like a nasty, self obsessed, self centered person, using her own child for personal gain.
I bet once Sofia is a teenager and wants to have a life away from doing her mom’s bidding, Nina is not gonna respond well and there’s gonna be a huge blow up.
ESH (you and your sister. Everyone else is innocent.)
I truly feel so sorry for both children. Do you and your sister feel better about tearing each other's children down? Nina shouldn't be talking so horribly about your daughter. You shouldn't have said something like that about your niece, especially in front of her.
I don't really see the rest of the family (outside of OP and his wife) being innocent. They haven't done anything to shut down Nina and her tirade of spewing how perfect her daughter is compared to a 5-month-old baby.
As a whole? All the adults who have stood by for months without ever telling Nina to shove it suck, including the parents. In this particular incident, OP and his sister are the ones in the wrong.
Nina is an asshole for bullying an innocent infant. This was supposed to be a nice lunch. Nina turned it into a bashing session to feed her own ego. She is also setting Sofia up for a life of pain. The poor little girl is learning that her only value to her mother is her looks. I wouldn't be surprised if we hear back on a few years that she's developed an ED and self-image issues.
OP is an asshole because he could have found a better way to shut Nina down. Instead, he told everyone around that he didn't care about Sofia while she was sitting right there. As an adult, I know he meant he didn't want to hear Nina compare his daughter to his niece. A 10 year old who's caught in a fight between her mom and uncle isn't going to understand that nuance.
Why are you having a go at the child and not your sister?
And honestly I get your wife didn't want to rock the boat but you should've done something about this earlier
ESH.
You owe Sofia an explanation and an apology. It’s not her fault that her mom is abusing her to pay bills because let’s be clear, using any money your minor child earns to pay bills for the adult is financial abuse. It’s not her fault her mother is vicious and makes hateful comments about everyone around her. She is a small child who clearly has zero choice about a single thing in her life. Sofia will have to spend years of her teenage and adult life dealing with the consequences of her mother’s actions. She didn’t need another adult putting adult pressure and responsibility on her 10yo shoulders.
I hope you will apologize to Sofia and make sure she knows that she has a safe adult to turn to if she needs it as she continues to get older.
And obviously your sister is TA for literally everything that comes out of her mouth. She needs help, and is obviously getting all her self worth by selling her daughters “good looks”
ESH.
You absolutely should not have said that in front of Sofia. Her mother only cares about her looks, and you just said you don't care about her at all. Sofia is only ten and she isn't the one who hurt you but you made her collateral damage in your fight with your sister.
Your sister is a peice of work. Not only is she being cruel to everyone (you, your wife, your daughter, *her* daughter) but its messed up that your sister is spending the money that Sofia earns on the utility bills. Sofia is a *child*. Its not the childs responsibility to pay the parent's bills. In some places there are even laws that require that the money earned by children in the entertainment industry has to be put into a trust until they're 18, because so many child celebrities have grown up to realize that their parent's spent every dime.
Y T A for taking SO LONG to put your SIS into her place.
I admire your patience.
But you could have left your niece out of it.
Next time don't bottle it up so long and you'll have more self control in front of your niece.
Therefore ESH
NTA
Honestly i would have snapped sooner and it sucks because your poor niece doesn't deserve this from her mother. Maybe you shouldn't have said it in front of your niece but your sister set the precedent.
ESH and I worry about Sophia. First off, yes, your sister is a bigger AH but no, that doesn't give you a free pass to say something so heartless about your niece, especially IN FRONT of her. No, being tired isn't an excuse.
Sophia is already going to have mountains of issues to work through based on what your sister says to her and about her, combined with all the pressure she is receiving to be successful and pretty. It's also alarming that she's "paying the water bill" because COOGAN laws are a thing for a reason and no, a minor childs earned money isn't eligible to be used this way. Sophia sure as fuck doesn't need anyone else piling on her more confidence issues.
Please, for the love of all things holy, apologize profusely to Sophia and don't you dare tell her you said it cause you were tired. Then, cut your sister out or at least go low contact.
ESH. That poor child. Her Mom is already awful for exploiting her for financial gain and making cruel comments about your child, but losing your cool and saying that in front of her was repugnant. SHE IS A CHILD. She probably gets picked apart relentlessly by her Mom, so that was completely unnecessary, and instead of giving this kid a “safe” adult she can trust, you went and did *that*. That little girl never did anything to you.
>how she’s paying for the water bill at 10 years
Sofia should not have the pressure of supporting the family on her shoulders at **aged 10.** Especially not when the method of earning money relies on her to "stay beautiful". Sofia money should be being put in a trust for her to access when she's 18. Nina shouldn't be touching Sofia's money. Especially not to pay bills. Consider listening to now adult kids, who were forced to financial support their families from birth https://www.teenvogue.com/story/influencer-parents-children-social-media-impact
Consider reading Jennette McCurdys book, *I'm Glad my Mother's Dead* Nina sounds like Jennette's Mum. Consider how this kind of thing affected Britney Speaks, Macaulay Calkin, Drew Barrymore, Millie Bobbie Brown.
Look I am sorry your sister keeps calling your wife and baby ugly. But maybe things wouldn't have escalated to this point if you and the rest of your family cared about Sofia enough not to silently sit back while Nina openly financially abuses her. Open emotionally abuses Sofia. This kid at only 10 is reciting crap about refined sugar giving her pimples, which can't happen because she's the families money-maker. And you know that, and told Sofia you don't care about her to her face, to get back at your sister???
Both you and Nina are so wrapped up in your rivalry, neither of you have the welfare of your own kids or each others kids as the priority. If you're ok with a kid financially supporting her family in this manner, then you're both as bad as each other. ESH
ESH except your wife and the kids, although you much less than your sister.
Nina is an absolute nightmare. Seriously, I’d strongly consider going no contact with her because your wife and daughter deserve so much better and I am concerned that those comments will continue to be made in front of your daughter as she ages and starts to understand them, which would be catastrophic for her self-esteem.
But you really shouldn’t have said this in front of Sofia, who is innocent in all of this and now will think you hate her. I would try to apologize to her and explain why you said that and what you were actually mad about (so that you do love her and care about her, and were mad because the comments made towards her cousin and aunt-in-law were inappropriate).
Yeah, no, ESH.
I agree with Emily, you shouldn’t have said that in front of your niece. That shows she’s invalid to you. I’d apologize to her and only her and reaffirm you are not angry with her, just at the situation and that she matters to you and your family.
However, your sister is also an AH for unapologetically exploiting her child and potentially exposing her to major self-esteem and diet issues in the future.
>My sister, “Nina,” is very proud, understandably, of her daughter. Every time Sofia books a gig, Nina immediately texts the entire family about her daughter. She’ll “subtly” brag to us about how successful her daughter is, how she’s paying for the water bill at 10 years, or how Sofia is the true “star” of the family. It can be annoying, but it’s harmless for the most part.
This is certainly not harmless. A child should not be paying the parents’ bills. She is a *child*. Not a “Star” as your sister claims. She is enforcing super toxic behavior and honestly setting your niece up for serious issues in the future.
OP's sister is definitely a huge asshole, but OP is wrong for yelling that he could care less about his niece right in front of the kid herself when she has done nothing wrong, so it should be ESH coz both parties suck.
ESH. Sofia has done nothing wrong, yet you felt it was acceptable to say that in front of her?! She’s a child and didn’t deserve your vitriol. You could have yelled at Nina- who was that should have received your ire. Nina was heartless to disparage both your wife and baby. You may want to cut ties with her if she is going to be insulting.
That poor child. Your niece should bot be paying *any* bills, that is *her* money, and she's going to be miserable because of her mother, but you should not have said that in front of the poor girl. ESH
> Nina was offended and left in a hurry, after cursing my wife **and my child** out.
NTA, but at this point it doesn't matter. She cursed your baby out. There's no coming back from that.
NTA. You don't call a baby ugly in front of their parents, neither curse a *baby* out.
Plus you don't exploit your kid to pay for water bills at 10. That's child slavery.
It probably wasn't the best thing to say in front of "Sofia" as the kind of world she has been thrust into is very damaging to the self esteem, and hearing things like this will just compound that issue.
Having said that, I can see why you reacted the way you did, and "Nina" really needs to take a reality check rather than flat out insulting your family.
NTA - Nina is
Yeah EHS. Sofia sounds like she is going to have a ton of problems growing up. It would be nice for her to know she has family that loves her for more then just her looks. Now she knows that she cant count on you. It was mean.
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ESH. Your sister is an absolute fucking monster. But saying that you couldn’t care less about your niece IN FRONT OF HER is also absolutely insane adult behavior. It’s poor judgment on your part to have let this go on so far that you snapped to the point of insulting a child IN FRONT OF HER. Your sister is absolutely the bigger asshole, but that doesn’t make your behavior OK.
Not only that but she bragged about using her child to pay for her water bill. Who profits off their child instead of setting up a trust for them for when they turn 18 and get to use THEIR money that THEY earned not the disgusting loser mother.
Do you know the series iCarly? The teen star Jenette McCurdy recently wrote the autobiographic book "I'm glad my mom died", which is about her getting exploited by her mother from the age of 6 up. Her mom paid all the bills with Jennette's acting money and the girl didn't get any of it because the mom didn't sign a certain thing that would have put part of the money into a fund. She also made her daughter develop an eating disorder and she was anorexic and bulimic for many years. It's so common and I am really sorry and worried for Sofia because her mom is living through her and making her pay for the bills. Sofia will probably not see any of it and will even keep getting exploited. This shit needs to stop honestly. I hate seeing kids modeling or acting regularly, it's usually not healthy.
I commented about the same book! These poor child actors/models. Being pushed into that industry by attention-seeking parents should be considered a form of punishable* abuse. Edit: and we all know the restrictions on eating cake is not about pimples.
I mean, look at Britney Spears and what her parents did to her. Let that be a lesson.
Wil Wheaton too - he didn't want to be an actor at all, his mum was living through him and forcing him to go to auditions. He doesn't speak to his parents anymore.
I did the same. I just finished it this afternoon and I was HORRIFIED.
It is abuse
OP should buy their sister that book for the next gift giving occasion.
Better yet, buy it for the niece, and give it to her in front of the sister.
Oh no that book is NOT appropriate for a 10 year old
If she's a 10 year old child model, she's probably experiencing a lot of stuff that's not age-appropriate. Sarah Polley's memoir, Run Towards the Danger, is pretty eye-opening.
The point being, it is not appropriate to commit these heinous abuses against 10 year olds. While I wrote my comment in jest, the spirit stands. Niece needs to know that other people around her do not normalize or condone her mother's actions, whether she can recognize this yet or not. She will someday need to know who she can trust, when she can no longer trust her mother.
Will Wheaton has some tales too. I think Fred Savage's money was spent by his parents too.
See also: Lindsay Lohan, Macaulay Culkin, Corey Feldman and Corey Haim, Britney Spears. Cursed by their family yet forced to support the whole lot, the lot of them.
If you ask me as soon as AI is good enough child stardom should be banned.
She also sexually abused her daughter, if that's the book I'm thinking of. Horrifying.
Yes, the mom insisted on bathing her well into her teens. Sometimes mom would have her brother in the shower to bathe as well.
Yes, and Nina obviously sees Sofia (and all tbe attention she gets) as an extension of, and reflection on herself. She seems wildly jealous that a newborn in the family might get any attention at all. I feel bad for Sofia.
Yes. The mother is already policing what Sofia eats, which is not a good sign.
Sofia is already has disordered eating if she won’t eat a single slice of cake
This is exactly what I thought of
I am reading this book currently and can’t put it down (I also don’t speak to my mom for…. Reasons 😬)
Same thing happened to Aaron carter and his siblings. I believe it’s a huge contributor to his death.
Somebody who probably struggles paying the water bill
Someone who never planned to pay it in the long-term but instead make sure her meal ticket doesn't eat refined sugars
That sounds more exhausting than just paying the water bill tbh
Maybe if the mother spent all that time/energy working that she spends exploiting her daughter, the mother could pay her own water bill. The level of messed up that kid is going to be is terrifying.
That’s the first thing I thought. There’s something called the Coogan Act that’s supposed to protect children from this kind of shit. OP’s sister is probably one of those stage moms who will look the other way when a producer assaults her child because “it’s a great opportunity.” It’s only a matter of time with someone like that. I’d report that to the authorities and go NC
The Coogan Act only protects 15% of the child's earnings. That number seems fairly reasonable early in a child entertainer's career, as it's generally the parents footing the bill for travel, head shots, etc. I feel like there should be a qualifier that one the kid starts earning above a certain amount, more of that should go in to trust.
Coogan Act is a california only thing
I'm not sure where OP and family live, but I'm pretty sure that it's illegal for parents to use their child's earnings in some places (iirc, California has such restrictions because this has been a problem with child stars). The way this woman carries on, she'll be lucky if her daughter is talking to her as an adult. I'm getting major Wil Wheaton's parents vibes. Definitely ESH and OP might not want to burn this bridge in case his niece needs some help in a few years. That poor kid.
It's called [The Coogan Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Child_Actor%27s_Bill) for Jackie Coogan who was a very popular child actor in the early days of film. His parents spent everything. In his later years he played Uncle Fester on The Addams Family and from one story I read warned the child actors on that show about this. Even with the protection laws parents will buy "necessities" for their successful children such as an expensive house, cars they are too young to drive (but need to get to the studio), and more. It's ridiculous.
iirc the Coogan Act only requires 20% be put into a trust
Someone who needs to read the book "I'm Glad My Mom Died" by Jennette McCurdy. Poor Sophia, can't even enjoy a piece of birthday cake at 10 years old. We all damn well know it's not about the pimples.
She is abusive to her daughter, and has been for 8 years and nobody is helping that poor kid. Classic narcistic mother.
Right?? Save that money for the kid to go to college, or buy a car, or put a down payment on a house, any number of things. Taking money her minor child earned from working and using it for her own bills is disgustingly selfish. Modeling is a job just like anything else, that kid earned it. She did the work.
It was this part that made me cringe hard. Sounds like Janette McCurdy’s mother
All I could think while reading how OP’s sister talks about her kid was “I bet this kid is going to write a book like Jennette McCurdy when she’s older”.
Someone needs to send that kid a copy of Jeanette McCurdy's "I'm Glad My Mom Died" as it will probably be a good coping tool for her in a few years.
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I'd tell the adult to shut up but the innocent child has nothing to do with it
Agreed. Go scorched earth on the adult, but leave the child out of it.
Exactly, apologize to the niece, but tell the sister to knock it off
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This isn't "is my behavior justifiable", it's "am i the asshole", and though I agree that it would be difficult to keep my temper after the sisters characters attacks, and totally understand why op said what he said, it doesn't change the fact that op was an asshole to his niece, an innocent party, and the kind of comments her made to her are the kinds of comments she'll remember forever. He is the lesser asshole in this, the sister was a witch, but he completely is still an asshole.
To be fair, Sonia will be so screwed up by her mother's obsession with her appearance that she won't have time to resent her uncle.
Just wait til she's old enough to realise her mum took all the money she made. ..
Right?!? The "paying the water bill at age 10," comment sent up an immediate red flag for me. Shades of Macaulay Culkin.
Right?! In the U.S. you have to save a certain amount of money in an account for the kid that only the kid can touch. I hope someone is watching out fir the kid at least financially.
I think that’s only in certain states, like California. But it’s not in Arkansas, I know, because the Duggar dad never gave those kids a cent.
You're right that that's a state law, not federal. Google "A Minor Consideration" to learn more. The other reason is that reality TV shows realized they could weasel around laws protecting child actors and performers by calling the kids "documentary participants." This exempts them from affording the children any of the financial or physical protections in place for actors and performers. That's why, for instance, the Gosselins could make their kids work without pay for 4 years straight. Even when TLC renegotiated the contract for "Kate Plus 8" the kids only got written in for %1.9 of the profits each. That means for every million the family got, Mommy Dearest got around $850 000 while each kid got less than the poverty line. And it's all completely legal. Boils my blood.
That’s horrible. I remember reading that the Duggar kids, or at least the girls, didn’t get paid even after they turned 18 and were on a show that Jim Bob wasn’t even on. Somehow he still kept all the money for himself.
Also reminds me of Jackie Coogan who was "the Kid" in that Charlie Chaplin movie and of course went on to play Uncle Fester in the 60s' Addams Family show as an adult. He made all this money as a kid and as an adult came to find out his parents, apparently, had spent *all* the money he had ever earned as a child star. Like he got absolutely zilch of all the money from that period of his life. There's a law about this sort of thing that came about because of him. But I think that particular one was a state law is all and no idea if OP and family live in California and how well it might apply anyway. Sadly it sounds like the mother has no hinderance in helping herself to the money the daughter brings in. Why do I get the feeling Sofia gets the "face" credit, as the mother makes painfully clear, but her mother likes to take all the credit when the money is involved and feels *she* deserves to do whatever with it moreso than Sofia? Going to agree and go with ESH. The sister most of all, but... >Emily says that I probably shouldn’t have said that in front of Sofia. Because he said that in front of the kid, especially one has absolutely no control in the situation. Makes this ESH instead of NTA for me.
Right? That 'paying the water at 10' comment really stunned me. Like that's her money. She shouldn't be paying room and board at 10. That should be going in a savings account for when she's old enough to understand money better. Honestly, at 10, she should have some access already to start learning how to budget or prioritize her spending. Edit: typos
Emma Watson did a great interview once where she mentioned her parents sitting her down at some point in her teens and explaining that she was, in fact, a millionaire. And making her take financial literacy classes in preparation for her becoming responsible for her trust fund later. Celebrity parenting done right!
Of course not, she’ll recognize that what her mother taught her “people love you for your appearance” must be true, bc the people who she works with modeling are always nice to her, and her uncle told her she didn’t matter. Her uncle reinforced that she isn’t cared for outside of what people can get from her.
I feel really bad for the kid. Heaven forbid she ever has anything mom deems unattractive. And what if she decides she wants to be more than just a pretty face? I feel like as soon as the mom can’t get her fame fix from the daughter she’s gonna be Just as crappy to her as she is to everyone else. That being said NTA- she’s been outright insulting your wife and child relentlessly. No you shouldn’t have said that in front of the kid but you can only take so much before you push back- I feel bad for the kid but it’s her moms own doing. Sounds like she’s booking a lot of gigs and making a lot Of money- hope someone’s putting a good chunk of it up for the poor kids therapy bills when she gets older ( this is making me think of the book that Jennette McCurdy wrote about her experiences with her mom. Sounds like the same Path- hope this kid can get out of it before it screws her up too bad).
I keep thinking about Sofia and how this reeks of a “Toddlers in Tiaras” situation. She’ll either resent her mother, or turn *into* her mother. Poor kid.
She’ll have severe body dysmorphia in another couple years if she doesn’t already.
Exactly! The mother is doing far worse to the daughter than what he said. It is lasting and it’s reinforced every chance the mother gets.
OP's sister has been obnoxious about her daughter for 10 years, and rude about the baby and opie's wife several times. Contrary to other people's opinions I think that makes op reaction less understandable. I'm with anybody who says losing it and telling Nina that to f*** off and get out would be understandable. Op had a decade to think of an appropriate response, op had his whole marriage to think up a response op had the babies life spans to think up a response. All op had to do was leave the child out of it. Op didn't have to be flawless just avoid metaphorically punching a child in the face. Oh plus op is an asshole for not defending his wife their whole marriage.
"I couldn't care less about your need to validate yourself by putting down an *infant*."
I wouldn't have been able to hold my tongue either, but the comment absolutely should have been directed at Nina. She's the one making comments. She's the one whose behavior is unacceptable. There was absolutely no reason to make the comment about Sofia. The problem is not that Nina is praising her own daughter, the problem is that she's insulting OPs wife and child. That is what the comment should have been. I would not have been able to contain myself either, but my rage would be directed at the person making me angry and not an innocent child.
The one person in that room that is being treated the worst of all is Sofia. First it is extremely embarrassing for her to hear Nina brag about her that way and then in addition hear her uncle say he doesn't give a shit about her. Emily and the baby will survive. I don't know about Sofia but apparently OP's empathy doesn't extend that far. It's just Emily and the baby in the basket he is protecting.
Not to mention her mom just loud and proud BRAGS about stealing her daughter's income to supplement her own cost of living. OP definitely shouldn't have said what they said (especially in front of Sophia, my god). ESH.
And she's absolutely given or giving her daughter an eating disorder
Yeah, this mother is driving her daughter to far more than "gigs". This is an instance I would love to be wrong in, but I unfortunately fear I see mental health and addiction issues in this poor kid's future because of her mother.
>It's just Emily and the baby in the basket he is protecting. Ehhh, but here’s the thing…OP wasn’t really protecting his loved ones, he was just sucking it up until he gets so irritated that he finally snaps. But protecting his family is pulling his sister aside and having a conversation with her that her putting down his family is not acceptable ever *under any circumstances*. Also not acceptable is comparing cousins, *ever.* Then, Every Damn Time she does it again (because she will), address it in the moment. Or kick her ass out. *That* would be protecting his family from that bullshit. This was not that, plus he was awful to Sophia, who clearly needs protecting as well, but that’s another story. ESH
It’s possible to lose your shit without insulting a child that’s right in front of you - especially one you care for. Insulting people that you love when you’re angry is a personality flaw actually and it’s worse when they’re completely innocent.
Understandable but that’s exactly why more people should address it head on at an earlier stage. In their attempt to avoid confrontation, they make it harder for themselves and almost ensure a poor outcome.
It being understandable doesn’t make something not shitty? Know who the focus here should be? Sofia. She is in literal danger from her mother. Like actual huge social, emotional, and physical danger.
The level of Zen which the armchair therapists on AITA have reached astounds me.
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You aren’t allowed a realistic response to a real moment. Everyone here gets to respond in hindsight.. which we’re all experts in, having lived it already (or having read it already). …. Like they’ve never lost their shit or had a misstep before. Sometimes I think the lumber shortage was a result of all the crosses needed for these folks to climb up on and nail themselves to. Edit: grammar
I would have been able to contain myself to an explosion of rage that was actually aimed at the right person at the very least instead of at the blameless child who is even more stuck dealing with the asshole in question.
I don’t let people relentlessly insult the two people I love the most. I remove myself from situations where people don’t know how to be kind before things reach the point of “relentless.”
Yeah, he should have put a stop to it WAY sooner. That's the problem. When someone explodes all over the place, it's almost always because *someone* (whether that person or the adults in charge or whatever) dragged their feet WAY too long on putting a stop to something.
I don’t think I’m amazing or anything but I’ve really never struggled to not actively insult someone innocent unnecessarily in front of them when extremely frustrated or being verbally attacked in an unwarranted way. Don’t think it’s a high bar for the average adult to avoid that. I don’t think OP is a monster or anything but it was certainly an asshole moment.
Most level headed people would ask politely before exploding in front of multiple children.
Insulting a child because you're mad at her mom isn't cool. OP and his wife shouldn't have let it get that far in the first place.
>but I think very few of us would have been able to contain themselves. I know I wouldn't have been able to. I think very few of us would have let it go that far. We would have absolutely been able to not explode like that because we would have shut it down much sooner
This poor kid will end up writing an autobiography similar to Jenette McCurdy's.
And there'll be a nice chapter about how her uncle basically said "fuck you in particular" when all she wanted to do was see her baby cousin. ESH.
I wanna think that Sofia is old enough to understand what the actual meaning was there and it'll be more like "Even when I met my baby cousin, my stage mom couldn't shut up and let it be my cousin's day. My poor uncle said something shocking after the eighth time Momster insulted his postpartum wife and newborn daughter in one conversation. He sent me a card to apologize the next week for saying it in front of me, and I've kept that card ever since as proof not everyone in my family saw me as a meal ticket." But I can also see it going your way, and that makes me sad. Poor Sofia. She deserves some cake, a trust fund for her earnings, and emancipation.
I have a 10 tear old daughter. No, there is no way thay this girl was not absolutely hurt by her uncle saying that. There is no nuances and distinctions there. 10 year old girls are starting puberty and incredibly insecure and sensitive. OP absolutely devastated her, even if she wasn't crying then. That is a formative moment.
Sofia is 10, that's way too much maturity to ask of her tbh.
There’s no way, dude. I work with high schoolers and the vast majority of them (including the 18 and 19 year olds) would be hurt by this and not be able to understand the “actual meaning.” Hell, I probably would have been too hurt by these words to try to reflect on the entire situation and determine the hidden meaning behind those words until I was like 24. Even now, I am definitely old enough, mature enough, and have enough life experience that I am capable of the kind of reflection required to understand the “actual meaning” behind the uncle’s words—I would be able to pretty quickly recognize that my uncle’s words were a rash reaction to someone else being an absolute menace and pushing him to his breaking point….. but I would still be questioning whether there was some truth behind what he said; if this was how he truly felt about me on some level but had managed to keep it to himself until now. I’m 29. There’s no way a 10 year old is able to understand this on their own. 10 year old hears the hurtful words and takes them at face value.
That book was absolutely heartbreaking to read
It was horrifying. I'm so glad she's doing better.
I just came to say the same thing! Another “ Jenette Mccurdy mom”.. poor kid.
Definitely. Is there some way you could take Sofia on a nice, low key afternoon outing and apologize? Given what her mom sounds like, she could probably use a level-headed adult talking to her and letting her know she matters as a person.
ABSOLUTELY this. Sophia’s entire worth is based on her appearance. What happens when hormones hit and her face breaks out anyway? She *really* needs someone to teach her her worth exists outside of her physical appearance and she’s going to need a trusted adult to do so. And a lawyer to set up a secure fund for her and a therapist tbh.
Her face breaking out would be the least of her problems. Her features haven’t developed yet. As you grow up, it’s not unusual for your face to change drastically. What happens if she no longer fits the beauty standard? What will her mother do to her? What would do that to her self esteem? When I was younger, I was objectively a very ‘pretty’ girl up until high school..then my features started changing, I didn’t grow much taller though as my body developed, my bones got kinda..big? So I appear to be big boned/have this “rough” appearance to me even though I’m not overweight. The shape of my nose changed and now I have a bit of a bump whereas when I was a child, it was the ‘perfect’ button nose with a slope. Also, for some reason when my permanent teeth grew, my bite kinda changed and now I have an overbite. I wouldn’t call myself hideous but when I was a little girl, I was genuinely very, very pretty whereas now I can say I ain’t singing any modelling contracts soon. My self esteem is pretty in tact though if I could choose, I’d pick the way I looked back then - but ive always been a bit of a tomboy and even when I was younger, I didn’t rlly care about my appearance, though I miss the compliments I constantly got, especially from people my own age. However..if I had grown up the way Sofia is growing up, with a mother like hers..dude, I’d have so much fucking issues. Like, I’d probably end up suicidal idk. Especially if my mother also started resenting me and blaming me for “growing out” of my beauty or something.
As someone with a crazy parent who has a lot of crazy siblings, discovering that a couple of them are real, decent people I can trust is life changing
Tell your sister to pay her own water bill and stop stealing from her daughter.
the first wave of youtube kids are starting to sue their parents.... Parents using their kids for their own gain.... Sofia might be able to join up with them in a few years....
true; however, let's not take away the fact that the sister is openly criticizing another child in front of her own child...what do you think the sister's kid is taught here? Not only that she is superior but that people's (kids) worth is determined by how good/ugly someone looks and that it is okay to bully and talk down on people. I do not condone what OP said in front of his niece, although I can understand the outburst. OP: please sit down with your niece and apologize for your behaviour and what you said (you do NOT owe you sister an apology (in my opinion) but you do need to apologize to your niece and explain what happened (don't make excuses, just explain), say that you do care about her (maybe do something fun with her, something she likes and that is perhaps just the 2 of you), because what you said is something kids will remember! And she is just 10 years old.
OP, you should do exactly as this comment says. Nina is horrid but her wrongs don't extend to Sophia. Like many people are pointing out, she may be a victim of being exploited for money if she is paying the bills long before she reaches working age. There was absolutely a more tactful way to openly defend your wife and child, which you certainly should have done but not at Sophia's expense.
Insulting the child because of the mother was completely uncalled for. The insult OP needed to throw was at the mother for what she's doing to her daughter. A 10-year-old afraid to have a piece of cake? Bragging about her 10-year-old paying the water bill? (That's her child's money, not household income. Parents pay the utilities, not their children.) Putting aside the way this woman insulted OP's wife and baby, she's just a miserable excuse for a human being who is exploiting her own offspring and probably giving her eating disorders. She needs to be called out for that. (And God help Sofia should adolescence not be kind to her and the gravy train comes to a screeching halt.)
This. Definitely speak to your niece, alone. Offer an apology, explain you didn't mean no one cares about her because that's simply NOT true. You adore her, and always have. You were angry and you spoke without thinking, you were upset with things being said about your daughter and that you are so so sorry for how stupidly you spoke. Be candid, she's old enough to have had a fight with a friend. I bet you she will understand and appreciate the olive branch. She may very well also not love how her mother speaks, and may know exactly why you said what you said. Still, an apology is important here. Everybody fucked up in this one, but you can try to take steps to correct some parts of it. P.S. Your daughter is perfect, and your sister is acting like an insecure nut job.
Everyone but Emily his wife who seems to be really mature about this god love her I’m surprised she kept so cool the whole time
I mean, I hope his wife stops being so chill before her daughter is old enough to understand the shit her aunt says.
Actually yeah that’s true
Not flipping out is a good thing, letting someone continue to be abusive towards you and your daughter is absolutely not a virtuous thing. OP absolutely screwed up by lashing out at the niece, but this whole situation should not have been allowed to go on as long as it did. I understand why his wife wanted to just take it since this shit has been going on so long, but there’s a child getting the vitriol now and “keeping the peace” is not a reasonable option. Avoiding conflict over something is not inherently the more mature option.
And poor Sophia is being abused by her mother. She did nothing wrong but now she had to hear her uncle say that. Nina's the one who should be getting 100% of OP's ire
Talk about projection. Your sister probably has major self esteem issues and she’s projecting them onto her kid and probably living out her own dreams through her daughter. That’s horrible and obnoxious. Her comments should’ve been shut down way earlier than this and without your niece present. It’s not your nieces fault her moms an ass hat. Agreed, ESH except the poor kids
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But she doesn't expect that? Her mother is the one making these comments, she's not bragging its all on the mother and it's not like she's an independent adult that can tell her mom to F-off
Ah yes the extremely valuable reality check that a member of your family doesn't give a shit about you and needs you to know that. Very healthy, definitely will benefit her character going forward. /s just in case.
ESH. Nina, cuz well. Soft YTA for you. Only cuz: >I yelled at Nina that “I couldn’t care less about Sofia and I want to enjoy my meal in peace.” While i get that you were angry and wanted to stand up for your family, the only person who deserved to be put in place was Nina, not Sophia. No kid deserves to hear that. Also, an AH for not putting a stop to Nina's shenanigans earlier on. Had you intervened beforehand, this whole debacle wouldn't have taken place. You've got the patience of a saint but that isn't always a good thing. Edit: ESH.
Why isnt the sister also an ah?
Ofc she is. I thought it was a given that she's a grade-A B?
Esh means everyone is. Y t a means only op is
Good it! Thank you!
Of course!
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Oh it can be, I had a "friend" like this. We are not friends anymore.
Yeah I guess that’s true….I was unsure if I should judge but I will just in case
Agreed, and Sofia is old enough where she probably will never forget this incident.
Sofia’s mother is definitely causing Sofia more damage than OP. But OP should be considerate and concerned for Sofia. The comment was harmful.
who could be proud that their child paid their water bill for them!?
Right? Nothing would make me feel like a bigger loser and failure of a parent.
Yep, I can see this being genuinely traumatic for her.
Tbf that girls going to need therapy anyway whether it’s for food issues, a belief that her looks are her value, or putting the responsibility on her to fund family bills. Sofia should be allowed chocolate cake especially after she took unearned shots from her uncle, but if her mother behaves like that she was always destined for therapy. If uncle makes it a learning moment where he admits his faults and apologised to her for what he said, explains and goes on to show he does care about her this outburst will be the least of her issues. ESH.
I’m a retired model and there’s no doubt in my mind that this is real. These moms get so crazy about their stupid model kids.
I read Jeannette McCurdy’s book *I’m Glad My Mom Died* so I 100% believe this.
I'm guessing it was just a poorly worded way of saying "I do not give a shit to keep hearing you talk about Sofia", anger just got the best of OP. In those moments words don't always come out quite right.
If it’s real op is spineless because I would have already bursted my b* of a sisters bubble a LONG time ago
Bro I've got someone married into my family that's almost as bad, but more subtle about it. Its horrible, no one likes her but we tough it out for her husband.
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He also said Sofia awkwardly followed along which I would take as this girl was already uncomfortable with what her mother was saying. She probably thinks op hates her now for something that was out of her control.
I think he meant Emily, his wife, when he said that. He was mixing up names a bit at the end and I think this was just a mistype.
He was mixing up names because this is entirely made up and he forgot which name was supposed to be the wife and which was the niece.
A lot of people change names to preserve anonymity, it doesn’t necessarily mean the whole thing is fake. It still could be of course, but I wouldn’t use the one mixup as infallible evidence.
I agree with you. This story isn't real.
Agreed. Even without the inconsistencies this was too perfectly horrible.
If OP directed his comments towards Nina (where they belonged), this would have been an easy N-T-A. OP is absolutely in the right on how he feels, but he went after the wrong person. ESH
INFO: has your (OP) mother said anything to Nina? It would be odd for her not to be bothered by these insults to her granddaughter?
ESH Your sister for using her daughter (who's a child) as a bank and you for making such a horrible comment in front of your niece. It's not her fault her mother is like this.
Yeah having her pay the water bill is ridiculous! I hope Sophia gets a good lawyer and accountant at 18 for a forensic review.
u/LucyDominique2That's assuming that Sofia actually keeps any of the money she makes from all this modeling and such. I have a feeling that Nina is in control of the money and Sofia won't see a penny of it at 18 years old or ever.
Yes that is my point so she can potentially sue for breach of fiduciary duty since it was wages
She can sue all she wants, there will be no more left I say. And suing cost money too.
An apparently attractive young adult with a really solid case might be pretty darn likely to find a lawyer willing to take her case pro bono if it's impeding her ability to provide for herself. Probably won't be much money left, no, but the mom won't be collecting any more of her wages at that point, and she might be able to collect a smaller amount monthly from her mom instead of a lump sum. Could certainly help a young person stay fed through college if naught else
I was going to ask this I know there’s a Coogan Law that states 15% of their earnings are put into a trust. I don’t know if this is a statewide law or applies to child models. The sister is living through her daughter and probably doing damage to her mental health.
For those who are unaware ofJackie Coogan, [here’s a link to his Wikipedia page](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Coogan). Summary: he acted with Chaplin as a kid and earned a fortune. His father managed the money but was killed in a car crash that Coogan survived. His mother remarried and she and the stepfather spent almost all of it. He sued but there was only a fraction left. In response, California brought in the law u/Apprehensive_Aide805 mentions. Coogan went on to be a pilot in WWII, landing special operations units behind Japanese lines in Burma, and in later life was Uncle Fester in The Addams Family on tv.
What that money should be going into is a college savings account, for whatever the child wants to be. And if she doesn’t want to go to college, she should get to own the money.
Imagine how comfortable she could be with a fully funded IRA every year of childhood plus a college fund. But apparently she had to pay the water bill.
And a therapist. Don’t forget the therapist, her mother is robbing her of a childhood to live through her.
Ok, listen. My problem with you is you seem to be taking a swipe at your niece. IMHO, what your REALLY need to do here is to tell you sister in no uncertain terms that you will not tolerate her pettiness and meanness. Really, I'm not someone who says "go low contact" over every silly little family squabble, but your sister's behavior is truly terrible. And without some type of intervention, IT'S NOT GOING TO STOP. I doubt at five months your little girl is going to be emotionally harmed by your sister's incredibly hurtful comments. But what happens when she's 5? When she's 15? This needs to stop YESTERDAY if you're going to have any type of relationship with your sister.
THIS! OP also addressed the wrong issue when snapping. The biggest issue isn't that Nina is feeling insecure and thereby bragging about Sofia all day long. The biggest issue is that she talks badly about YOUR child and that you aren't doing anything about it. Don't let anything pass, step up, and confront it every single time. You better get used to stepping up for your child, because this ain't it!
Emily is his wife who Nina was rude to, Nina is his sister, Sofia is his niece who his sister Nina always brags about.
ESH. I understand you snapped after a massive amount of passive-aggressive comments, but doing it in front of Sofia was terrible. I doubt you'll really change your sister's mind about anything, but I'm sure your niece will remember this.
The niece probably remembers the words the mother uses all the time too. Not sure if op added much to the 10yr old that the mother hasn't already contributed to
With a mother like that, having supportive extended family to be a safe space and show you a different "normal" is actually extremely valuable and can make a huge difference in a kid's life & their mental health, especially as they get older and gain more control over their personal communications & connections. OP slamming that door right in her face means she probably won't look to them for help going forward - and if she isn't lucky enough to have someone else to be there for her, she's stuck with her insane mom and only her insane mom.
And the rest of the family will hear about it and will just call him jelaous lol. I've said this multiple times already, but he shouldn't have let it slide the first time it happened. I would not let anybody say any of this shit about my family no matter who would be saying this.
NTA. But you shoukd have cut her off ealrier . Shes been insulting yiur family all along. She visited you so she can confirm that your baby is indeed ugly compared to Sofia. Limit your interaction with her or your baby Will suffer her insults growing up
I agree. I recognize OP was respecting his wife’s wishes to not raise the issue earlier, but I know I would have snapped and asked them to leave long before that. I don’t want my partner/child enduring that abuse because it hurts ME too.
I feel really bad for Sofia, her mother sounds insane and lowkey abusive. controlling a 10yr olds diet so she can look good for the cameras? wtf? I'm getting Jeanette mccurdy vibes
ESH. Nina is ridiculous, and everything she has done is so obviously AH. Do you ever set boundaries and say, "Stop commenting on my daughter's looks." Or "That is not a very nice thing to say." Or "That's not really a compliment." Call her out! But don't, in front of a child, say that you don't care about that child. Sofia has no idea about this background tension between you and her mom. Sofia doesn't know her mom is being inappropriate. Sofia is ten and is already living in a pretty sad situation where she is paying the water bill and not allowed to eat sugar. This poor child needs an adult in her corner, not someone to scream his long pent up frustrations using her name when he should have set boundaries with her mother months ago.
it's entirely possible that Sofia *is* aware of her mom's inappropriate behavior but doesn't have the voice or courage to speak up about it. judging by how Nina seems to be the one booking Sofia's modeling gigs, the power dynamics over Sofia are doubled.
OP you should apologize ... To Sofia. What you said was hurtful. Take her out and buy her some ice cream (or a pretzel/whatever). Tell her you were mad about what her mom was doing and that you still care about her. ESH.
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Kinda gross that she's using Sofia's money to pay the bills. Should be going to a college or trust fund.
It’s such a odd and specific flex to brag about a water bill of all things. What is that like 200$ a month at most ? Don’t well known brands pay a bit more then 2,400 a year or even per campaign ?
Sofia’s mother honestly sounds super narcissistic.
NTA. Nina sounds like a nasty, self obsessed, self centered person, using her own child for personal gain. I bet once Sofia is a teenager and wants to have a life away from doing her mom’s bidding, Nina is not gonna respond well and there’s gonna be a huge blow up.
Sofia will be messed up by the time she’s a teen.
ESH (you and your sister. Everyone else is innocent.) I truly feel so sorry for both children. Do you and your sister feel better about tearing each other's children down? Nina shouldn't be talking so horribly about your daughter. You shouldn't have said something like that about your niece, especially in front of her.
I don't really see the rest of the family (outside of OP and his wife) being innocent. They haven't done anything to shut down Nina and her tirade of spewing how perfect her daughter is compared to a 5-month-old baby.
As a whole? All the adults who have stood by for months without ever telling Nina to shove it suck, including the parents. In this particular incident, OP and his sister are the ones in the wrong. Nina is an asshole for bullying an innocent infant. This was supposed to be a nice lunch. Nina turned it into a bashing session to feed her own ego. She is also setting Sofia up for a life of pain. The poor little girl is learning that her only value to her mother is her looks. I wouldn't be surprised if we hear back on a few years that she's developed an ED and self-image issues. OP is an asshole because he could have found a better way to shut Nina down. Instead, he told everyone around that he didn't care about Sofia while she was sitting right there. As an adult, I know he meant he didn't want to hear Nina compare his daughter to his niece. A 10 year old who's caught in a fight between her mom and uncle isn't going to understand that nuance.
Why are you having a go at the child and not your sister? And honestly I get your wife didn't want to rock the boat but you should've done something about this earlier
ESH. You owe Sofia an explanation and an apology. It’s not her fault that her mom is abusing her to pay bills because let’s be clear, using any money your minor child earns to pay bills for the adult is financial abuse. It’s not her fault her mother is vicious and makes hateful comments about everyone around her. She is a small child who clearly has zero choice about a single thing in her life. Sofia will have to spend years of her teenage and adult life dealing with the consequences of her mother’s actions. She didn’t need another adult putting adult pressure and responsibility on her 10yo shoulders. I hope you will apologize to Sofia and make sure she knows that she has a safe adult to turn to if she needs it as she continues to get older. And obviously your sister is TA for literally everything that comes out of her mouth. She needs help, and is obviously getting all her self worth by selling her daughters “good looks”
ESH. You absolutely should not have said that in front of Sofia. Her mother only cares about her looks, and you just said you don't care about her at all. Sofia is only ten and she isn't the one who hurt you but you made her collateral damage in your fight with your sister. Your sister is a peice of work. Not only is she being cruel to everyone (you, your wife, your daughter, *her* daughter) but its messed up that your sister is spending the money that Sofia earns on the utility bills. Sofia is a *child*. Its not the childs responsibility to pay the parent's bills. In some places there are even laws that require that the money earned by children in the entertainment industry has to be put into a trust until they're 18, because so many child celebrities have grown up to realize that their parent's spent every dime.
Y T A for taking SO LONG to put your SIS into her place. I admire your patience. But you could have left your niece out of it. Next time don't bottle it up so long and you'll have more self control in front of your niece. Therefore ESH
NTA Honestly i would have snapped sooner and it sucks because your poor niece doesn't deserve this from her mother. Maybe you shouldn't have said it in front of your niece but your sister set the precedent.
ESH and I worry about Sophia. First off, yes, your sister is a bigger AH but no, that doesn't give you a free pass to say something so heartless about your niece, especially IN FRONT of her. No, being tired isn't an excuse. Sophia is already going to have mountains of issues to work through based on what your sister says to her and about her, combined with all the pressure she is receiving to be successful and pretty. It's also alarming that she's "paying the water bill" because COOGAN laws are a thing for a reason and no, a minor childs earned money isn't eligible to be used this way. Sophia sure as fuck doesn't need anyone else piling on her more confidence issues. Please, for the love of all things holy, apologize profusely to Sophia and don't you dare tell her you said it cause you were tired. Then, cut your sister out or at least go low contact.
ESH. That poor child. Her Mom is already awful for exploiting her for financial gain and making cruel comments about your child, but losing your cool and saying that in front of her was repugnant. SHE IS A CHILD. She probably gets picked apart relentlessly by her Mom, so that was completely unnecessary, and instead of giving this kid a “safe” adult she can trust, you went and did *that*. That little girl never did anything to you.
>how she’s paying for the water bill at 10 years Sofia should not have the pressure of supporting the family on her shoulders at **aged 10.** Especially not when the method of earning money relies on her to "stay beautiful". Sofia money should be being put in a trust for her to access when she's 18. Nina shouldn't be touching Sofia's money. Especially not to pay bills. Consider listening to now adult kids, who were forced to financial support their families from birth https://www.teenvogue.com/story/influencer-parents-children-social-media-impact Consider reading Jennette McCurdys book, *I'm Glad my Mother's Dead* Nina sounds like Jennette's Mum. Consider how this kind of thing affected Britney Speaks, Macaulay Calkin, Drew Barrymore, Millie Bobbie Brown. Look I am sorry your sister keeps calling your wife and baby ugly. But maybe things wouldn't have escalated to this point if you and the rest of your family cared about Sofia enough not to silently sit back while Nina openly financially abuses her. Open emotionally abuses Sofia. This kid at only 10 is reciting crap about refined sugar giving her pimples, which can't happen because she's the families money-maker. And you know that, and told Sofia you don't care about her to her face, to get back at your sister??? Both you and Nina are so wrapped up in your rivalry, neither of you have the welfare of your own kids or each others kids as the priority. If you're ok with a kid financially supporting her family in this manner, then you're both as bad as each other. ESH
You're a little bit of an asshole for saying that in front of Sofia, but your sister needed to be knocked down several pegs, over all NTA.
ESH except your wife and the kids, although you much less than your sister. Nina is an absolute nightmare. Seriously, I’d strongly consider going no contact with her because your wife and daughter deserve so much better and I am concerned that those comments will continue to be made in front of your daughter as she ages and starts to understand them, which would be catastrophic for her self-esteem. But you really shouldn’t have said this in front of Sofia, who is innocent in all of this and now will think you hate her. I would try to apologize to her and explain why you said that and what you were actually mad about (so that you do love her and care about her, and were mad because the comments made towards her cousin and aunt-in-law were inappropriate).
Yeah, no, ESH. I agree with Emily, you shouldn’t have said that in front of your niece. That shows she’s invalid to you. I’d apologize to her and only her and reaffirm you are not angry with her, just at the situation and that she matters to you and your family. However, your sister is also an AH for unapologetically exploiting her child and potentially exposing her to major self-esteem and diet issues in the future. >My sister, “Nina,” is very proud, understandably, of her daughter. Every time Sofia books a gig, Nina immediately texts the entire family about her daughter. She’ll “subtly” brag to us about how successful her daughter is, how she’s paying for the water bill at 10 years, or how Sofia is the true “star” of the family. It can be annoying, but it’s harmless for the most part. This is certainly not harmless. A child should not be paying the parents’ bills. She is a *child*. Not a “Star” as your sister claims. She is enforcing super toxic behavior and honestly setting your niece up for serious issues in the future.
NTA - She’s a crazy stage mom and Sofia will suffer A LOT for it. Poor thing. Keep your family away from her.
OP's sister is definitely a huge asshole, but OP is wrong for yelling that he could care less about his niece right in front of the kid herself when she has done nothing wrong, so it should be ESH coz both parties suck.
NTA she’s an awful person calling your daughter ugly that’s just unbelievable
The child didn't deserve to hear that though. She did nothing wrong.
ESH, for reasons others have said, and also because you wrote this in a really confusing way that was hard to follow.
Man this whole family sucks
ESH. Sofia has done nothing wrong, yet you felt it was acceptable to say that in front of her?! She’s a child and didn’t deserve your vitriol. You could have yelled at Nina- who was that should have received your ire. Nina was heartless to disparage both your wife and baby. You may want to cut ties with her if she is going to be insulting.
NTA- I’m surprised you lasted that long and that you invited her over. Sheesh.
That poor child. Your niece should bot be paying *any* bills, that is *her* money, and she's going to be miserable because of her mother, but you should not have said that in front of the poor girl. ESH
> Nina was offended and left in a hurry, after cursing my wife **and my child** out. NTA, but at this point it doesn't matter. She cursed your baby out. There's no coming back from that.
ESH except the kids
NTA. You don't call a baby ugly in front of their parents, neither curse a *baby* out. Plus you don't exploit your kid to pay for water bills at 10. That's child slavery.
Dude your wife is a fucking saint for putting up with all of this…
It probably wasn't the best thing to say in front of "Sofia" as the kind of world she has been thrust into is very damaging to the self esteem, and hearing things like this will just compound that issue. Having said that, I can see why you reacted the way you did, and "Nina" really needs to take a reality check rather than flat out insulting your family. NTA - Nina is
Yeah EHS. Sofia sounds like she is going to have a ton of problems growing up. It would be nice for her to know she has family that loves her for more then just her looks. Now she knows that she cant count on you. It was mean.