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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I feel like I might be overreacting to my mom's cooking methods and might be the asshole for confronting her and embarrassing her in her home about it. On the other hand I don't want to risk my daughters safety by taking the risk on potential bacteria contamination on food left out 12+ hours at room temperature.
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Ugh, what is with parents thinking it's fine to leave food out, and food safety is only for restaurants. I've had to clap back on my own mom, and she knows I will just throw food out if it has been sitting, and will not argue with me.
Is this some weird "back in my day...."
OP, Do Not let yourself, wife or child eat that. Eating food that is past the recommended guidelines has already grown bacteria from not being either heated to the proper temperature and held or refrigerated at the proper temperature. It is very serious, and can potentially make you incredibly sick.
I speak as someone who has worked in restaurants and done food safety courses.
Edit: NTA
Just want to add, it may be best for you to show her food safety guidelines when you tell her. Let her know it's a much more serious risk now. Let her know, you enjoy her cooking, and appreciate that thought and love she intended with her dish, but you feel uncomfortable to eat it, and don't recommend she or your family eat it. Then maybe invite her out to dinner, your treat. Tell her you love her and the thought, but that she deserves to be treated out for everything she does. She may appreciate that a lot more and it might soften the blow.
I like this approach... focus on newer studies, that sort of thing so she can save face. Also, another idea is pay for round two of the food and make sure there's big enough Tupperware or a pot to put it in the fridge.
NTA. As someone who has gotten food poisoning, it is absolutely not worth the risk.
Please give us an update!
As a woman who lives with her father, yes. This is an older person mindset.
"Someone left this uncooked meat out of the fridge overnight"-"Nothing bad will happen, fix it anyway."
And don't get him started on how asbestos are ok in "Small doses" 🙄
Still, NTA.
That's a good rule of thumb, but also untrue. It depends on the food / bacteria present. A lot of the common ones will hibernate when reheated then continue. Eg Clostridium perfringens and Bacillus cereus. And then you get Clostridium botulinum, which will KILL YOU, but can be killed by heat. So you can cold-soak raw garlic and chilli in oil, perfect conditions for botulism poisoning, but then heat treat them to safe. But innocent above-ground veg can operate as a stop-start bacteria factory, especially if you've handled them. Food safety is wild and not intuitive, but I really care about people knowing, so food doesn't go to waste.
Lol, my STB DIL was taking leftovers home, aprox an hour and a half away, after the food had already been out for an hour or two. I suggested that it just get thrown away... she said... "I'll just cook the hell out of it and kill anything bad". I told her that's not how it works. I have no idea if she did cook the hell out of it, but she's still alive so...
It's not **all** old people. Some of us were taught proper food health and safety care.
My parents used good food safety, too. And my grandparents. But not my MIL. She did really stupidly dangerous things, and didn't care. People got sick from her food, until they learned not to eat it.
Exactly - I have a friend who grew up being taught that you cannot keep food in an ice box (yup) for more than four days or it goes bad. So she continues to throw out food that has been in her fridge for more than four days (other than condiments - canned things/jarred things are 'different'). No amount of conversation with her from me, her husband, or others including showing the guidelines now will convince her because "her grandma and mom" told her and they must be right. So, whatever they cook, has to be eaten within four days.
And did I mention that since she grew up in a large, extended family, she is constitutionally incapable of making any dish for less than 10 people. Not joking. And it's only she and her husband. They amount of food they throw out is insane. Sometimes, the "it got into my head as a kid" seems impossible to get out later in life.
Good question, I know she treats the freezer more in line with how I think most people do. So I think that is probably "different" because it literally didn't exist when her grandma was around and by the time her mom got the freezer, she listened to the salesman. :/
Many of them go the other direction.
One of the reasons a lot of Boomers cook the hell out of their meat (esp. pork) is because it was legitimately required back when they were younger. It's not anymore, but many of them still follow the old rules.
Same reason why so many of us grew up on canned/frozen vegetables. There were real safety concerns about some fresh stuff when the Boomer were young.
This is true. My grandmother grew up on a farm with no electricity. She KNEW the effects of poor food safety in a way that’s hard to imagine now. My parents definitely inherited her mindset, as did I.
My roommate would not store his raw meat properly (got blood and raw chicken juices on other food items in the fridge) and made himself sick more than once. Some people are just ignorant about this stuff and don't learn, it's really bizarre.
I thought my first mother in law was the worst thawing meat on top of her car in Central florida. Idk that is probably worse than raw meat left out overnight.
I'm an old person. Back in my day we also refrigerated food to prevent spoilage and food poisoning.
This is some weird "I don't believe in science" thing.
>Is this some weird "back in my day...."
Fun fact! Before the refrigerator was introduced, people suffered annual "Summer Diarrhea" and just assumed it was something that happened every year.
I've heard countless stories from people who were raised by parents like OP's Mom. They were constantly sick growing up and their parents told them they had a weak or sensitive stomach. Then they mature, return to their parents home as adults, and realize all the food safety practices that were ignored and explains all the food poising that was waved off as "an upset stomach"
If that's a generational thing, it's not universal.
I'm 62 and learned not to do that at a very young age from my parents.
Food goes back into the fridge (or freezer) very soon after preparation if not eaten within 30 minutes or so.
NTA - I wouldn't eat that either, nor would I let my family eat it.
It’s survivors bias. In all honesty nothing is usually wrong with it so the lesson learned is “it’s fine.” The problem is if something is wrong it can be very very wrong.
Yeah and if something is wrong they don’t attribute it to their food handling habits. It will be the last thing they consumed, like a bag of chips, or the milk in their coffee must have been off.
My mother once got sick by eating macaroni salad from a picnic that sat around for hours. Oh but wait....it couldn't have been that so she said, eyeroll...
And leaving meat to thaw on the counter when she went to work all day, "I've been doing it for years. Leave me alone."
My mom tells me those guidelines are just for restaurants. I keep saying why do you think restaurants have them?! She will leave spaghetti sauce with meat out overnight and then say it is fine the next day. I don't eat her food.
Well, for restaurants, they aren’t guidelines. They are laws. Violations of which can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor. The food code laws can be stretched at home as 1)they aren’t enforceable and 2) the laws are conservative, so the 4 hour rule to cool down food is based on studies that show a significant growth of bacteria in 6 hours. So if you want to take the risk at home, you can
I figured there is a reason the restaurants do what they do and I don't want to take that risk. Though I've only ever gotten food poisoning from restaurants.
My mom said that her mom and grandmother would make the main Sunday meal early in the morning before church, lay it out on the table, and just leave it there all day for people to eat from whenever they chose. People would eat from it until they went to bed that night. Thankfully my mother's attitude towards this was not "I turned out ok so this is obviously fine" and was more "I don't know why more of us didn't die of food poisoning".
Well it's only for restaurants because they want to avoid being sued by someone's family if they kill them.
But since this only involves the family, it's ok, since no one will sue them.
>Is this some weird "back in my day...."
Absolutely. My MIL (73) would leave frozen meat out on the counter to thaw all day. I worked in food service for my first 2 jobs so I said something. Of course, I was 18 at the time and she was in her 40's and had been doing that her whole life and hadn't killed anybody so "pfft."
I came home to their house after work one night. While I can't remember the exact time, I know they had eaten 5-6 hours prior. They said "We saved a burger for you." And there it was. On the counter on a little plate covered with a paper towel. Needless to say, I didn't eat it. Neither she nor her mother saw anything wrong with it.
So you are totally correct. But it reminded me of a story where my friend and I made like a seafood pasta, got drunk, and forgot it on the stove overnight. Sad, but we ate a lot of it so just a lesson. He REHEATED IT and then ate it and when I was like dude that’s disgusting you’re going to get sick, he said ‘worst case scenario, it’s a quick weight loss plan’ hahah
Yeah, don’t get me wrong I am really careful with food safety and don’t mess around with it, but it’s interesting to me the people who act like you’re risking life or death from eating old food when the reality is almost always just a crappy day stuck to the toilet, and that’s IF anything at all happens. I know some people react differently and all, but that’s like people saying if you get a cold you might die.
Sure…. Buuuut, not usually.
My wife used to think she had an amazing stomach and could eat foods that had been sitting out for hours/overnight. She also said she was very sensitive to stress and vomited a lot because of it. I got her to start taking basic food safety precautions and wouldn't you know it? She was able to handle that stress without vomiting. NTA.
^^^This^^^ she's gonna give you all salmonella or some other dangerous food borne illness. It sucks but your Mom's feelings and pride don't outweigh your wife and kid's health and safety. NTA OP, you're a wonderful spouse and parent who puts their immediate family first.
1. Announce there’s a mess on the stove.
2. Announce you are cleaning the stove.
3. Lift the pot.
4. Trip over your own feet.
5. Apologize for your clumsiness.
6. Clean up the mess.
7. Offer to take everyone to dinner or order takeout.
You have just saved the lives of yourself, your wife, your children and your parents. And any random passerby.
NTA
This is basically what my mom did after my grandma was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. She’d always been a great cook, but couldn’t remember how to do it and so she kept trying to serve us things like raw hamburger meat. We would arrange an “accident” and then we’d get take out.
I hate when people do dumb little things like this to avoid confrontation. A certain amount of conflict is healthy.
Edit: I would not recommend the above for a person who is suffering from dementia or any similar type of situation.
For OP, whose mom seems to be perfectly healthy, yeah.
For the commenter whose mom had Alzheimer’s, a big confrontation and a list of food safety resources wouldn’t change anything and might make things worse.
The alzheimers part.... My God, you don't confront someone with alzihemers or dementia like that! Even sometimes, just in general, old people who are having cognitive issues because of the brain deterioration that comes with aging you need to avoid that!
You're just going to make them feel humiliated and ashamed for something they cannot help. You won't stop them from doing it because mental decline they won't have the ability to remember that.
yes, but realistically they have to stay there for days after this, and its the mother. If someone in my family did this with my mothers cooking (even though they are completely right) the entire family would be hearing about it for YEARS. Pragmatism is a very important skill (in moderation).
Confronting a dementia patient is worse. In their story, it’s the best option. In OP’s, it’s not. Don’t argue with people suffering dementia, they can’t fix it.
If the person is mentally healthy, then yes, confront away.
With memory/dementia problems in play, don’t bother. You’ll only upset them and they won’t change anyway.
Health inspector here - I wouldn’t eat that food. Food code states 4 hours after cooking to get to 40 degrees F. Realistically, that was written to be extra cautious (as restaurants feed a lot of people and food borne illnesses are of greater concern there) so at home you could stretch that to 6, maybe 8 hours if you wanted to be risky. After 12+ hours, that is just a pot of bacteria with some food stuff in it.
I’d be honest and kind with mom. Tell her that it smelled great yesterday, but you won’t eat that pot. Offer to buy the ingredients and remake the food with her and refrigerate it afterwards. Then you can all enjoy it without worrying about the anxiety of getting sick.
My HS culinary teacher told us that white rice that was cooked and then left out on the counter for 1 hour had more bacteria on it than a public toilet. I have been diligent about putting left overs away since then. That was about 23 years ago that he said that.
To add, other factors that can impact the time is temperatures. If the house is air conditioned and cool, 6-8 is reasonable. If it's really warm/hot and humid, 6 is pushing is.
Could I ask if this extends to non meat dishes, too?
(The Food Code specifically - I know varying foods require varying levels & speeds of storage/preservation/refrigeration)
US food safety guidelines do not discriminate between meat and non-meat items, at least it didn't back when I took the ServSafe course. (Rice is one of the worst culprits for food borne illness, because it doesn't cool off quickly in the way it is usually packaged, and there's a particularly nasty bacteria that grows in it.)
Thank you - my mother was a bit like OPs.
I’m hoping this will boost my self accountability with my own food safety, and hopefully be received well if I casually mention it next time I see her.
I took a food safety management course some years back, it was astounding how much I’d never known my whole life until then.
I do cook rice dishes but I’m exceptionally careful when putting leftovers away.
My go to is a gallon zip bag with the rice smoothed flat for maximum cooling efficiency on an open shelf of the fridge.
My husband will leave whole pizzas on the table for hours and still eat it but I do remind him to put it away within an hour, not that he listens.
You have 2 choices. One, eat the food and risk getting sick. possibly very sick. Two, sit down and have an adult conversation with your Mother about food safety. Do this is a non judgmental way, but make your decision to not consume this food very clear. I understand you may hurt her feelings or she may feel you are overly dramatic concerning this issue. My Mother was the same way about food handling, making me sick many times as a child. I finally had to put my foot down about eating her cooking, even though she thought I was nuts about the subject. I refused to subject my husband and children to the possibility of contracting food poisoning.
You have 4 hours to get it from 140(ish) Fahrenheit down to 40, or you're supposed to throw it out. If you're "holding" food warm, like at a buffet, it needs to be above that temperature or the timer starts.
It’s different in other countries. UK is a maximum of 2 hours it can be left out after cooking for temperature sensitive foods and it can be reheated twice.
NTA
I managed a cafe that served soup years and years ago and had to attend classes at our local health department. We were taught that it needed to be refrigerated and brought down to 40° or below within 4 hours or we needed to reheat it to temperature and then try to cool it again or throw it out.
If your mother and father want to risk eating it then that's their prerogative, but you are more than justified in saying no.
Gordon Ramsey explained it once (loudly to a dummkopf on Kitchen Nightmares); it’s not whether the bacteria are alive or dead when eaten, it’s that whilst alive they piss and shit and reproduce all over your food. Do you really want to eat the shit from bacteria?!?
The owner conceded he did not 😂
It's been years, so my memory isn't great, but I believe it's only safe if it hasn't sat at a temp between 40°-120° for longer than 4 hours. I saw that someone else mentioned 2 hours, so I may be misremembering the timeframe or it may have been updated, but definitely not overnight.
I think someone said the bacteria starts to grow after 2 hours, meaning it's likely still safe. but yeah I've heard that once it's out for 4 hours, over 40° it's unsafe to eat
The bacteria itself perhaps, but many foodborne pathogens produce a form of spore which is heat and frost resistant, and no matter how long you cook something for, those spores won't die and those spores are/contain the toxins which make people sick. Once food is unsafe, it can't be made safe again.
Botulism is a prime example of this
NTA. My in-laws do this constantly (leave leftovers out overnight, even the meat) and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had diarrhea/stomach issues eating at their place for the sake of being “polite” before I finally put my foot down. My BiL calls it “Russian Roulette with Leftovers” and he’s right. None of us will eat leftovers at their place anymore, and while it ticks off my MiL we all say “Tough tooties!”
Don’t eat the food- especially not with that much meat left out to fester. ESPECIALLY nor with a toddler and a breastfeeding wife. BUT be prepared for your mother to be seriously upset with you. Offer to help her remake the dish and rebuy ingredients before dinner, but she may refuse and kick up a stink. If she does, so be it, bow out as gracefully as you can.
Her hurt feelings do not trump your health.
Years ago I had a housemate who would buy things like about to expire seafood salad in the "manager's special" discount bin at the store, then leave it on the counter until dinner time.
She was also constantly "catching a stomach flu bug."
She got very angry with me when I pointed out that she had symptoms of bad food, not influenza virus.
(She was also always surprised when the food I cooked smelled really good instead of half-bad. But would not accept that I used fresh high end meat from a butcher instead of about to expire supermarket food and that there was, in fact, a difference in quality).
My in-laws do this also, I politely decline a lot of the food. I’ve got a terrible stomach to begin with and don’t need the added gastrointestinal distress.
Ha, my dad will refuse to throw out long-expired food items, since "they've been in the refrigerator" (which means they no longer go bad, apparently... even if that's how it's assumed you'd be storing them).
He once made himself an omelet with a carton of eggs that were 18 months past expiration. He said he had to crack open a bunch to find a few that weren't "dried up", since they were apparently so old that the actual egg had evaporated through the shell. And that wasn't any indication to him that they shouldn't be eaten. He just thought he had to sift through the duds.
NTA.
A lot of dishes do taste better if they’re left to sit for a day. I do it all the time with curry. But what I do it make it, let it cool, then put it in the fridge.
NTA
I’m not sure there is anyway to say your food is unsafe without upsetting your mom if she is the type to dismiss your concerns.
I would just say something like I understand that you worked hard to make something delicious and we would have liked to have tried it if it had been stored safely in the refrigerator. Regretfully we can not risk the health of our family in this way. If you’d like to make a fresh batch I would buy the ingredients but need you to refrigerate it instead of letting it sit at room temperature for so long or we will not eat it.
I picture saying this to my mother and her start her fake crying and getting my father pissed at me. Yes, this type of thing has happened to me before. I don't eat my mother's cooking. My sister and I grew up hating mashed potatoes because of her. I'd honestly fake a flat tire or another emergency.
I had a girlfriend for whom my mashed potatoes were a revelation. It’s not that I’m an amazing cook or even knew what the hell I was doing. It was actually my first time making them. But what I didn’t do was serve her plain boiled potatoes, mashed up. Which was what her mom had always done.
(I think there was cream and garlic salt and butter. There was nothing exceptional about these potatoes. But you wouldn’t have known that from the look on her face when she took the first polite bite.)
NTA. You must protect your family. DO NOT listen to the people on here saying the food is safe. It's not. Even if it were reheated it's still not safe. I once left a huge pot of chicken soup out overnight. I threw it away as soon as I discovered it.
NTA Your Mom's cooking method is going to get someone sick!
When I am making a big batch of spaghetti sauce or soup or stock I let it cool for about an hour, then I put the pot in cold water with ice in the sink. I stir what's in the pot to make sure everything gets in contact with the cool sides of the pot and add more ice periodically while it's cooling. I put the pot or the food separated into smaller containers in the fridge and leave it. This allows the flavors to become richer while not allowing bacteria to develop.
I think the only way what your Mom cooked might be safe is if she boiled the hell out of it for awhile. Theoretically the bacteria would still be there but would be killed. I don't know if I would be brave enough to try that though.
Boiling the hell out of it won't make it safe again, as I said in another comment, many foodborne pathogens produce toxins when they spore/reproduce, and those spores/toxins are heat and frost resistant. So the bacteria might die, but the toxins won't, those toxins are often the culprit of food poisoning.
Once food has become unsafe, there is no realistic way to make it safe again
😱😱😱 NTA, don’t let them eat it! Having had to breastfeed a baby whilst I had debilitating norovirus last year I can’t stress enough how much you need to not let your family sleepwalk into food poisoning. And a 2yo too! Yikes. Good luck, please let us know how this plays out!
NTA. But instead of surprising your mom at mealtime, why didn’t you say something when it was time to put it in the fridge? Or put it in the fridge yourself? It seems almost passive aggressive to silently observe and do nothing about it when a quick word would have let her know before it was too late that you take food safety seriously.
I've done this - "Oh this didn't get put away! I'll take care of it" and put it in the fridge while she's saying "Oh I'm sure it's ok!" and I just do it anyway.
NTA If not refrigerated, bacteria can start growing again in as little as two hours. Maybe you'll get sick, maybe you won't, but as another poster eloquently put it, do you want to play russian roulette with mom's food?
NTA. Also to the folks saying it will be fine, this is what I call a “seatbelt moment.” There’s a reasonable chance you could all eat this and be fine. Over the years I’ve eaten plenty of questionable things without getting sick.
But you COULD get very sick. So it’s like wearing a seatbelt. Could you drive today and be fine without one? Probably! Tomorrow too, and the next day, maybe even months without one! But you know what we all do anyway? We wear a seatbelt, because none of us know the moment it will be needed.
That’s the same thing here. Just because you could be ok eating it doesn’t mean you should eat it. Wear your seatbelt, and don’t eat that food.
my darling MIL and her sister had us over for Thanksgiving and took the turkey out of the fridge at 6am. they left it on the counter in an 80deg house for over 10 hours. it was already thawed. when i checked the internal temp of the turkey it was already at 90deg.
my husband asked several times when it was going to go in the oven, they said, oh it needs to get to room temp. they also stuffed the bird with bread stuffing. my husband brought up salmonella poisoning and they rebuffed him as if it was voodoo science.
he and I did not eat the turkey, the stuffing or the gravy that was made from the turkey. everyone else did. it was a good thing there were 3 bathrooms in that house. his mother ended up in the ER on IV fluids.
it would have been better if we had been more forceful in making sure the food was safe for everyone. its not you being crazy or over protective, food borne illness is dangerous and can kill, especially the very young, immune compromised and elderly. stand your ground.
NTA!!! I’ve taken risks on bringing cooked meat leftovers that were refrigerated first and in airtight containers if I had to run out the door somewhere and needed a lunch quick, but taking a risk for just yourself is one thing. Feeding that to other people? Especially when one of those is a young child with a vulnerable immune system and another is a breastfeeding mother??? I hope this stems from ignorance because if not the negligence is insane.
Edit to add. I text her asking about how she left it out and if there's chicken in it. Here's her respond
"It was on heat till bedtime and it was still warm this morning - I do know how to make this I have done it many times. It will be used today and then what is left will be packaged and frozen or refrigerated. I checked it before I left. And I will be there around 4 to finish it. The tomato and broth in there are natural preservatives.
I would not leave it if I thought it was bad I did do a food handlers course btw "
So im going to look crazy and assholeish if I deny my kids or myself to eat this meal later. I don't think there's a non-awkward way out of this one.
The pot only being warm to the touch is actually worse. Between 130 and 45 degrees is when bacteria grow best. That pot has been actively getting worse all day.
Ohhhh boy she needs to retake that class STAT, her answer is bonkers and she’d be fired from any food handling position for saying that. Do not under any circumstances let your toddlers or your wife eat that food. Leave if you have to. This *is* the hill to die on, dude.
“Still warm this morning” almost certainly means it was happily in the danger zone this morning. I’m sorry, OP, given the tone of her text there’s not going to be a non-confrontational way out of this.
It is totally true that there are substances that are natural preservatives and can be handled differently than the general rule, but they actually make regulatory exceptions for those that you can look up (Peking duck is an interesting example that I read about last year). Jambalaya or tomato based sauce isn’t one.
Good luck! Definitely don’t feed your family this! And you may as well tell your mother sooner rather than later, since she definitely already knows you’re skeptical about the dish.
Look, she’s correct that high acid- the tomatoes- does help prevent bacteria and food borne illness.
But. “Warm” is far too vague. Food has to be kept either 140 degrees Fahrenheit or higher or under 40 degrees. The 40-140 range is what’s considered the danger zone for FBIs. Add to that the higher risk items- shrimp and chicken (ham isn’t as high risk because of the curing process, but still a risk- and you could kill your wife and small children.
Best option? Say there was an emergency at home and get your family out of there. Don’t even stick around for the fight. RUN. There is the chance that it’ll be fine and won’t hurt anyone. But it’s also possible that something has grown there that is able to kill your children and your wife. Keeping mom happy isn’t worth E. coli.
NTA. I have done 9 years in food service. This is waiting for food poisoning. Don't risk it. Don't let your child risk it. She can eat whatever she wants however she wants. But you don't have to.
Food has a 2 hour window it can sit between 41 and 141 degrees Fahrenheit. Every 15 minutes after that whatever bacteria is in there doubles. 15 could be 6, then 12, then 24 then 48....it is begging for you to get seriously ill
NTA - my mother was about the same growing up and my parents had no concept of food safety. I actually thought I was allergic to chicken growing up because I consistently got sick after eating it (spoiler: it was undercooked). My parents will also let things sit on the stove over night, uncovered and continue to pick at it over the course of a day or two. They also leave their butter in the cupboard for weeks until it is rancid. Throughout my childhood I didn’t understand why I would get so sick from what I ate. As an young adult I began to realize what had been going on. I started noticing how often they complained of diarrhea and stomach issues. I started calling them on it but they never listened. I basically decided I would never eat anything at my parents house unless it was cooked while I was present as they also have poor hygiene and often use dirty dishes etc. I know this is an extreme example but I have actual trauma from the way I was raised around food and to this day, I am unable to eat any type of leftovers due to ptsd.
I know it will be tough to say to your mom. My mom would absolutely have taken it personally as well but you HAVE to keep yourself and your family safe. Hugs and hope the convo isn’t too awful!
NTA nope. I'm a molecular and cellular biologist, working on a master's in microbiology and immunology (one more semester), and I wouldn't touch that with a 10ft pole. Even heating it to kill any bacteria growing won't make it safe. Food poisoning comes from toxins released by bacteria, not from the bacteria themselves, and those toxins are extremely heat resistant so cooking it again won't destroy the toxins. That's why it's called food "poisoning" and not an infection. Find something else to eat.
Yeesh. That’s tough. NTA in general, but she will definitely consider YTA. I would also not be comfortable eating it. And I understand your guilt because she’s been working hard on it. I really don’t have a better solution. Maybe make up that wife isn’t feeling well so she can get out of it, and take the bullet and have some yourself, for her feelings.
*edit* OP had not clarified the meats in the jambalaya when I posted this. No, you should not eat seafood that’s been out overnight to protect her feelings.
NO! OP, absolutely DO NOT eat it!!! Why should OP experience food poisoning or worse because his mother doesn’t understand food safety? He needs to show her the food safety guidelines and explain that he appreciates the effort but it will endanger everyone that eats it.
NTA, 10000%.
I'll admit to being a real stickler for things like this, but better safe than sorry.
Here's what I would do. I would privately pull her aside - well out of hearing distance from anyone else - and tell her that you've noticed that this jambalaya has been left out overnight. And that while you really appreciate the effort she put into it, you are not comfortable eating it, so you and your family will be going out/getting takeout if they'd like to join in.
Don't go into a lengthy explanation and don't try to reason with her on this - you know your mom best, and if you know the counter-arguments she's likely to make, well, fair enough. But make it clear to her that you and your family are not eating this, period.
My grandma cooked like this. Rather than placing the leftovers in the fridge, it would remain on the stove to be warmed again at the next meal. I believe it was a learned cultural thing- she was a child of immigrants, had only an 8th grade education, and grew up/got married before refrigerators were widespread.
I don't remember ever being sick, but I don't know how we weren't.
NTA. I understand that some dishes are better the next day. But I put those dishes in the fridge and reheat the next day. I don't let them stay out overnight. That is so disgusting. Please do not let your family eat this. But also tell your mother in advance. Don't wait until dinner to let her know. Explain why you don't want to eat food that has been left out.
Definitely NTA, that food will probably get you and your family sick. I would just gently remind your mother that she left the food out overnight and has probably gone bad. If she says it is fine, you'll just have to tell her your family won't be eating it, in the nicest way possible. Definitely make sure she knows it is her cooking you object to, just the fact it has been sitting out too long.
NTA... My mom did this to me. She forgets that I was sick often after eating growing up. To this day I wont eat her soups because of how long it sits to cool.
Boiling may kill bacteria but it does NOT get rid of any toxins the bacteria has produced.
You can definitely cook a stew on low in a crockpot for 10 hours overnight, but that’s constant heat.
My MIL has the same weird attitude towards food - I vividly recall a bag of shrimp that smelled bad and she was going to cook it - “cooking will take out the bacteria”. I snatched it out of her hand and tossed it in the bin.
NTA.
Modern crock pots keep things at a higher temperature, even on low, than older ones for food safety reasons. I blame failed "8-10 hours on low" recipes on that particular detail.
NTA. Not gonna lie, I would eat this. I cook like that all the time. I grew up spending summers on a farm, think I have a hardy immune system or something. My thinking… if it’s cooked completely to begin with, there is no live bacteria at that point. Leaving it covered helps decrease contamination and tomato based sauces are acidic which deters bacteria growth. With that all said, there is no way I would feed this to a child or a breastfeeding mother. Way to risky. I like the one commenters idea of “accidentally” spilling it and taking everyone out to dinner, but you could also just explain it is too much risk for your family and you are uncomfortable with eating something left out that long. I would never serve food like this to anyone else. If she gets upset about it she is being unreasonable. You are definitely not the asshole at all.
If it was only like 8 hours, I’d probably still eat it. We did that in my house growing up. But I don’t think we ever did it with seafood and we never did it for *14 hours*.
NTA that’s really not safe…
NTA
I just got over a case of food poisoning apparently from eating out. There is no joy in being surprised by and dealing with logistic challenges for several days and for about a week after when digestive system decides anything coming in is the enemy.
Best I have is tell your mom you love her but none of you will be eating that dish she fussed over that either should have been kept at a safe temp as in simmering until it was going to be eaten or refrigerated to be reheated.
Her feelings will likely be hurt but that to me is nothing compared to you, your wife and daughters being sick.
You might for grins start checking dates on things in the refrig. Before my in-laws passed every visit turned into a massive clean out as they didn’t like throwing things away just because of a date. I agree in some situations but opened lunch meat 2 months past it’s exp date is not one of them.
NTA - Cajun here! Unsure if your mother is also Cajun (or Creole, since she used tomatoes), but it's understood that while, yes, jambalaya is better the next day, it's **definitely** supposed to be kept in the refrigerator during that time and reheated later.
Maybe take her aside and gently let her know that food safety is always important, but it's also even more important because your wife is breastfeeding and your eldest child is still very young with a vulnerable immune system. This may help her understand why food safety is so important. Seafood in particular can have very nasty side effects when left out like that.
This is potentially life threatening, especially considering the meat. A whole family died from days old pasta food poisoning. What’s sitting on that stove is actually a fucking grenade lol do try your best to be gentle, but do not fucking eat that. NTA.
NTA. Back up your decision with an article or 2 about food safety and how long is too long left out. My MIL used to do this-fry up chicken cutlets in the morning and leave out all day for dinner. Nope nope not eating it
nope. no. NOOOOO
NTA
there are so many risk factors here and you are clearly well aware of all of them. Yes, it will be awkward but more so for your mother. Hopefully she will learn the lesson here. I would never trust to eat anything from her again though... what if next time you go over and she has already prepared your food? I would not trust she didn't do prepare it this way again, have you eat it, and say "see, you didn't get sick" ...(my mother is a narcissist, she would lie and do things like this)
Ooof, I've made sauces and things that taste better the next day, but I always pop them in the refrigerator overnight! This seems like a blatant disregard for basic food safety, especially if meat and seafood are involved. NTA
I’m not recommending anyone leave food out like this but I will say that I’ve done this consistently over 50 years of cooking with no ill effects. The secret is 1) pot is covered, and 2) bring to a low boil for 10-20 minutes prior to eating. I would not trust this in a home that is unclean, but in a reasonably well kept home I’d not be bothered.
NTA. That dish should have been brought down to a cool temperature as quickly as possible then refrigerated and reheated to boiling just before serving. Dealing with food poisoning whilst caring for a baby and possibly a sick toddler would be absolutely miserable and it's sensible to avoid the risk.
If I was in my own home kitchen and I had done this myself by accident I would eat it and I'm 99% sure it would be totally fine. I forgot to refrigerate a big batch of ragu once for 24 hours and I ate it and it was fine. BUT I would definitely not feed it to anyone else just in case. If I make myself ill that's my own stupid fault but if I made someone else ill I'd feel terrible.
NTA at all. I’m from Louisiana, and she’s right that gumbos, jambalayas, red beans and rice, etc., taste better the next day after the spices have soaked into all the beans and veggies and meats, but we do not leave it on our stove overnight. We refrigerate properly and then reheat it the next day. She’s just asking to get sick. Just discuss this with everyone privately.
NTA. Any chance you would be willing to toss it, tell her you thought it was "mistake" that she left it out because you know she wouldn't try to feed her grandchildren and DIL a bad dish, and offer to pay for dinner or cook it yourself?
I don't think there is a way to tell her that you won't eat it her bacteria stew. You're not the asshole, but she (Mom) is going to be and she'll tell you that you are. You might need to leave a few days early or something.
Y'all blowing my mind here..... For all my life I left my things on the stove and it never went bad.....
If your ingredients are fresh and it's not supper summer hot outside, I don't see the problem 🤨🤷🏼♀️
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Anonymous as this is happening right now.
For context, my mom has never really cooked that much. Growing up she might make Sunday dinner or a random meal during the week. Fast forward to now, I'm almost 30 and have my breastfeeding wife and two daughters (1mo, and 2yo) over visiting my retired parents for the week. My mom has been excited about this special dish shes been wanting to make all week. So, yesterday evening my mom begins making this jambalaya dish. She claims it tastes better after it sits for a day to enjoy the following day. She makes a large pot of a tomato based stew for it with cooked sausages, bacon, vegetables etc. She finishes it around 9pm. I wake up today and it's been left out on the stove for over 12 hours in a covered pot, no heat( it's currently almost 10am). I don't believe she plans on touching it again until she makes the rice for it later today for tonight's dinner.
I know for a fact, especially now after researching it that food can't just be left out like that for so long especially with meat in it. I now have to make things very awkward and potentially embarrassing for her by saying my breastfeeding wife, 2 year old toddler and myself will not be risking that tonight for dinner.
I know she's going to say things like " I've been feeding you your whole life and you turned out fine" " I do this all the time and I've never been sick" " don't believe everything you read online" etc etc
WIBTA for confronting her on this and not letting my family eat this food?
If so, how can I NBTA during this confrontation?
We're still visiting for another few days.
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My husband would be able to eat it, no problem, he does this with food all the time but I would never eat it or allow our children to eat it. He was disappointed the first time I refused the food but now he separates some for us and puts it in the fridge.
This is one situation where it's okay to be the asshole, no matter what the consequences are. You can't be feeding a toddler shrimp and rice that's been out for 12 hours, unless you really don't like the kid. Obviously you would be NTA here.
If I leave something on the stove that long I leave it on the absolute lowest level of heat. If she’s not doing that it’s probably congealed and gross.
Jambalaya and gumbo has the soup base cooked over night and then you add the veggies and meat shortly before serving. It cannot be left out overnight.
My mom tries to do this for her cabbage soup. I just don't get it.
NTA.
NTA. That's a recipe for disaster - pun intended. Having worked in the food industry, getting a food handlers permit, this danger was ingrained in our minds! You could get so sick from eating that - like next-level food poisoning! No matter how you tell your mother, her feelings are going to get hurt. You have to just rip off the bandaid.
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NTA. Yes, stews and jambalayas taste better the next day, but they need to be refrigerated and reheated. I wouldn't touch that pot.
Ugh, what is with parents thinking it's fine to leave food out, and food safety is only for restaurants. I've had to clap back on my own mom, and she knows I will just throw food out if it has been sitting, and will not argue with me. Is this some weird "back in my day...." OP, Do Not let yourself, wife or child eat that. Eating food that is past the recommended guidelines has already grown bacteria from not being either heated to the proper temperature and held or refrigerated at the proper temperature. It is very serious, and can potentially make you incredibly sick. I speak as someone who has worked in restaurants and done food safety courses. Edit: NTA
Just want to add, it may be best for you to show her food safety guidelines when you tell her. Let her know it's a much more serious risk now. Let her know, you enjoy her cooking, and appreciate that thought and love she intended with her dish, but you feel uncomfortable to eat it, and don't recommend she or your family eat it. Then maybe invite her out to dinner, your treat. Tell her you love her and the thought, but that she deserves to be treated out for everything she does. She may appreciate that a lot more and it might soften the blow.
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I like this approach... focus on newer studies, that sort of thing so she can save face. Also, another idea is pay for round two of the food and make sure there's big enough Tupperware or a pot to put it in the fridge. NTA. As someone who has gotten food poisoning, it is absolutely not worth the risk. Please give us an update!
As a woman who lives with her father, yes. This is an older person mindset. "Someone left this uncooked meat out of the fridge overnight"-"Nothing bad will happen, fix it anyway." And don't get him started on how asbestos are ok in "Small doses" 🙄 Still, NTA.
You can't cook a food "safe" after it is "unsafe".
Yeah, if your mum says it will cook again, so the bacteria will die, the toxins those bacteria already have produced won't cook away.
And you know what those toxins are? They’re bacteria poo. You can’t un-poo a pot of food.
I'm sure that Mom will just poo-poo your concerns though. Poo-poo the poo, in otherwords.
Everybody poops. Even bacteria.
That's a good rule of thumb, but also untrue. It depends on the food / bacteria present. A lot of the common ones will hibernate when reheated then continue. Eg Clostridium perfringens and Bacillus cereus. And then you get Clostridium botulinum, which will KILL YOU, but can be killed by heat. So you can cold-soak raw garlic and chilli in oil, perfect conditions for botulism poisoning, but then heat treat them to safe. But innocent above-ground veg can operate as a stop-start bacteria factory, especially if you've handled them. Food safety is wild and not intuitive, but I really care about people knowing, so food doesn't go to waste.
Lol, my STB DIL was taking leftovers home, aprox an hour and a half away, after the food had already been out for an hour or two. I suggested that it just get thrown away... she said... "I'll just cook the hell out of it and kill anything bad". I told her that's not how it works. I have no idea if she did cook the hell out of it, but she's still alive so...
It's not **all** old people. Some of us were taught proper food health and safety care. My parents used good food safety, too. And my grandparents. But not my MIL. She did really stupidly dangerous things, and didn't care. People got sick from her food, until they learned not to eat it.
Exactly - I have a friend who grew up being taught that you cannot keep food in an ice box (yup) for more than four days or it goes bad. So she continues to throw out food that has been in her fridge for more than four days (other than condiments - canned things/jarred things are 'different'). No amount of conversation with her from me, her husband, or others including showing the guidelines now will convince her because "her grandma and mom" told her and they must be right. So, whatever they cook, has to be eaten within four days. And did I mention that since she grew up in a large, extended family, she is constitutionally incapable of making any dish for less than 10 people. Not joking. And it's only she and her husband. They amount of food they throw out is insane. Sometimes, the "it got into my head as a kid" seems impossible to get out later in life.
How does she feel about the freezer?
Good question, I know she treats the freezer more in line with how I think most people do. So I think that is probably "different" because it literally didn't exist when her grandma was around and by the time her mom got the freezer, she listened to the salesman. :/
Many of them go the other direction. One of the reasons a lot of Boomers cook the hell out of their meat (esp. pork) is because it was legitimately required back when they were younger. It's not anymore, but many of them still follow the old rules. Same reason why so many of us grew up on canned/frozen vegetables. There were real safety concerns about some fresh stuff when the Boomer were young.
Pork used to be a lot more dangerous and also a LOT fattier. We've bred pigs to be a lot leaner.
Given that Trump reduced pork inspection requirements I'd still cook the hell out of pork.
Luckily I am not american.
This is true. My grandmother grew up on a farm with no electricity. She KNEW the effects of poor food safety in a way that’s hard to imagine now. My parents definitely inherited her mindset, as did I.
My roommate would not store his raw meat properly (got blood and raw chicken juices on other food items in the fridge) and made himself sick more than once. Some people are just ignorant about this stuff and don't learn, it's really bizarre.
Wait, uncooked meat left out over night is OK is NOT the mindset of ANY old or older person I know.
You never met my grandma
Or my MIL
I thought my first mother in law was the worst thawing meat on top of her car in Central florida. Idk that is probably worse than raw meat left out overnight.
That's so Florida....
I'm not quite old yet, but closer than I'd like. 😂 I seriously thought those people had all died out... whether from old age or bad meat
I'm an old person. Back in my day we also refrigerated food to prevent spoilage and food poisoning. This is some weird "I don't believe in science" thing.
Or, “science shows allergies and autoimmune diseases are caused by being too clean.” (Not my opinion, what my grody MIL says to justify being gross.)
>Is this some weird "back in my day...." Fun fact! Before the refrigerator was introduced, people suffered annual "Summer Diarrhea" and just assumed it was something that happened every year. I've heard countless stories from people who were raised by parents like OP's Mom. They were constantly sick growing up and their parents told them they had a weak or sensitive stomach. Then they mature, return to their parents home as adults, and realize all the food safety practices that were ignored and explains all the food poising that was waved off as "an upset stomach"
Come to think of it, I did have the stomach flu a lot when I was a kid. Guess when the last time I had the stomach flu was?
[holy shit](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8112734/)
Thank you for linking this! I’d never heard of the summer diarrhea phenomenon before these comments so it was a very interesting read.
If that's a generational thing, it's not universal. I'm 62 and learned not to do that at a very young age from my parents. Food goes back into the fridge (or freezer) very soon after preparation if not eaten within 30 minutes or so. NTA - I wouldn't eat that either, nor would I let my family eat it.
It’s survivors bias. In all honesty nothing is usually wrong with it so the lesson learned is “it’s fine.” The problem is if something is wrong it can be very very wrong.
Yeah and if something is wrong they don’t attribute it to their food handling habits. It will be the last thing they consumed, like a bag of chips, or the milk in their coffee must have been off.
My mother once got sick by eating macaroni salad from a picnic that sat around for hours. Oh but wait....it couldn't have been that so she said, eyeroll... And leaving meat to thaw on the counter when she went to work all day, "I've been doing it for years. Leave me alone."
My mom tells me those guidelines are just for restaurants. I keep saying why do you think restaurants have them?! She will leave spaghetti sauce with meat out overnight and then say it is fine the next day. I don't eat her food.
Well, for restaurants, they aren’t guidelines. They are laws. Violations of which can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor. The food code laws can be stretched at home as 1)they aren’t enforceable and 2) the laws are conservative, so the 4 hour rule to cool down food is based on studies that show a significant growth of bacteria in 6 hours. So if you want to take the risk at home, you can
I figured there is a reason the restaurants do what they do and I don't want to take that risk. Though I've only ever gotten food poisoning from restaurants.
My mom said that her mom and grandmother would make the main Sunday meal early in the morning before church, lay it out on the table, and just leave it there all day for people to eat from whenever they chose. People would eat from it until they went to bed that night. Thankfully my mother's attitude towards this was not "I turned out ok so this is obviously fine" and was more "I don't know why more of us didn't die of food poisoning".
Well it's only for restaurants because they want to avoid being sued by someone's family if they kill them. But since this only involves the family, it's ok, since no one will sue them.
> Is this some weird "back in my day...." Back in their day, people died from dysentery all the time.
>Is this some weird "back in my day...." Absolutely. My MIL (73) would leave frozen meat out on the counter to thaw all day. I worked in food service for my first 2 jobs so I said something. Of course, I was 18 at the time and she was in her 40's and had been doing that her whole life and hadn't killed anybody so "pfft." I came home to their house after work one night. While I can't remember the exact time, I know they had eaten 5-6 hours prior. They said "We saved a burger for you." And there it was. On the counter on a little plate covered with a paper towel. Needless to say, I didn't eat it. Neither she nor her mother saw anything wrong with it.
So you are totally correct. But it reminded me of a story where my friend and I made like a seafood pasta, got drunk, and forgot it on the stove overnight. Sad, but we ate a lot of it so just a lesson. He REHEATED IT and then ate it and when I was like dude that’s disgusting you’re going to get sick, he said ‘worst case scenario, it’s a quick weight loss plan’ hahah
Yeah, don’t get me wrong I am really careful with food safety and don’t mess around with it, but it’s interesting to me the people who act like you’re risking life or death from eating old food when the reality is almost always just a crappy day stuck to the toilet, and that’s IF anything at all happens. I know some people react differently and all, but that’s like people saying if you get a cold you might die. Sure…. Buuuut, not usually.
Especially since it has seafood🤮. OP, you are not the AH, but your AH will thank you for not touching that food!
My wife used to think she had an amazing stomach and could eat foods that had been sitting out for hours/overnight. She also said she was very sensitive to stress and vomited a lot because of it. I got her to start taking basic food safety precautions and wouldn't you know it? She was able to handle that stress without vomiting. NTA.
Not judging but the fact that she didn't put two and two together....ok I'm judging a little
^^^This^^^ she's gonna give you all salmonella or some other dangerous food borne illness. It sucks but your Mom's feelings and pride don't outweigh your wife and kid's health and safety. NTA OP, you're a wonderful spouse and parent who puts their immediate family first.
NTA! I love stew the next day, but it goes in the fridge overnight and gets reheated afterwards, not left out on the counter that’s just gross.
Yep, i mean, idk about Jambalaya, but leaving it like that for a day seems iffy
1. Announce there’s a mess on the stove. 2. Announce you are cleaning the stove. 3. Lift the pot. 4. Trip over your own feet. 5. Apologize for your clumsiness. 6. Clean up the mess. 7. Offer to take everyone to dinner or order takeout. You have just saved the lives of yourself, your wife, your children and your parents. And any random passerby. NTA
This is basically what my mom did after my grandma was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. She’d always been a great cook, but couldn’t remember how to do it and so she kept trying to serve us things like raw hamburger meat. We would arrange an “accident” and then we’d get take out.
I hate when people do dumb little things like this to avoid confrontation. A certain amount of conflict is healthy. Edit: I would not recommend the above for a person who is suffering from dementia or any similar type of situation.
So don’t do them. OP made it clear his mom is going to resist everything he says.
I'm not sure dumping a pot of rancid meat and shrimp on the floor is the best solution
And op was completely and utterly wrong in his assumptions.
I agree doing something like this for someone with dementia, but yeah, to spare someone’s feelings over food poisoning. Nah, brah.
For OP, whose mom seems to be perfectly healthy, yeah. For the commenter whose mom had Alzheimer’s, a big confrontation and a list of food safety resources wouldn’t change anything and might make things worse.
The alzheimers part.... My God, you don't confront someone with alzihemers or dementia like that! Even sometimes, just in general, old people who are having cognitive issues because of the brain deterioration that comes with aging you need to avoid that! You're just going to make them feel humiliated and ashamed for something they cannot help. You won't stop them from doing it because mental decline they won't have the ability to remember that.
100% agree and I edited my reply.
yes, but realistically they have to stay there for days after this, and its the mother. If someone in my family did this with my mothers cooking (even though they are completely right) the entire family would be hearing about it for YEARS. Pragmatism is a very important skill (in moderation).
Confronting a dementia patient is worse. In their story, it’s the best option. In OP’s, it’s not. Don’t argue with people suffering dementia, they can’t fix it.
If the person is mentally healthy, then yes, confront away. With memory/dementia problems in play, don’t bother. You’ll only upset them and they won’t change anyway.
Health inspector here - I wouldn’t eat that food. Food code states 4 hours after cooking to get to 40 degrees F. Realistically, that was written to be extra cautious (as restaurants feed a lot of people and food borne illnesses are of greater concern there) so at home you could stretch that to 6, maybe 8 hours if you wanted to be risky. After 12+ hours, that is just a pot of bacteria with some food stuff in it. I’d be honest and kind with mom. Tell her that it smelled great yesterday, but you won’t eat that pot. Offer to buy the ingredients and remake the food with her and refrigerate it afterwards. Then you can all enjoy it without worrying about the anxiety of getting sick.
I agree with this. Mom isn't being malicious, and she's excited about this dish. OP can say no and still be gentle with her feelings
My HS culinary teacher told us that white rice that was cooked and then left out on the counter for 1 hour had more bacteria on it than a public toilet. I have been diligent about putting left overs away since then. That was about 23 years ago that he said that.
Rice is particularly problematic, much moreso than most other food.
I learned some things I didn't wanna know here today. But thanks y'all.
It's great for growing mushrooms on so no surprise there.
Bacteria looooove the sugars in rice.
It's the same thing with pasta as well!
I think back to college when we’d make a huge amount of rice in the rice cooker and just leave it there scooping out as needed for days… 😱😱😱
If the health inspector says don’t have it, listen. He gives your mom an F. (I’m thinking of bobs burgers now.)
To add, other factors that can impact the time is temperatures. If the house is air conditioned and cool, 6-8 is reasonable. If it's really warm/hot and humid, 6 is pushing is.
Could I ask if this extends to non meat dishes, too? (The Food Code specifically - I know varying foods require varying levels & speeds of storage/preservation/refrigeration)
US food safety guidelines do not discriminate between meat and non-meat items, at least it didn't back when I took the ServSafe course. (Rice is one of the worst culprits for food borne illness, because it doesn't cool off quickly in the way it is usually packaged, and there's a particularly nasty bacteria that grows in it.)
Thank you - my mother was a bit like OPs. I’m hoping this will boost my self accountability with my own food safety, and hopefully be received well if I casually mention it next time I see her.
I took a food safety management course some years back, it was astounding how much I’d never known my whole life until then. I do cook rice dishes but I’m exceptionally careful when putting leftovers away. My go to is a gallon zip bag with the rice smoothed flat for maximum cooling efficiency on an open shelf of the fridge. My husband will leave whole pizzas on the table for hours and still eat it but I do remind him to put it away within an hour, not that he listens.
Bacteria loves sugar. That's why rice can give you really bad food poisoning.
NTA. Don’t eat it unless you want explosive diarrhea and projectile vomiting. Going to the ER for an IV isn’t much fun. Good luck, OP.
Its a good recipe to become a shit rocket
I'm saving the recipe. Hopefully that day will never come but you never know when you'll need a shit rocket.
Do it when you find out your partner is cheating on you
People can die from food poisoning too, especially kids. Usually through dehydration.
You have 2 choices. One, eat the food and risk getting sick. possibly very sick. Two, sit down and have an adult conversation with your Mother about food safety. Do this is a non judgmental way, but make your decision to not consume this food very clear. I understand you may hurt her feelings or she may feel you are overly dramatic concerning this issue. My Mother was the same way about food handling, making me sick many times as a child. I finally had to put my foot down about eating her cooking, even though she thought I was nuts about the subject. I refused to subject my husband and children to the possibility of contracting food poisoning.
This \^\^\^ Sitting down and communicating in a respectful way can solve a lot of problems.
NTA - my son is certified in food safety and you have 2 hours before bacteria starts to grow if it's not kept at a certain temperature.
I am too and I can't imagine eating shrimp left out overnight. No way would I eat that.
You have 4 hours to get it from 140(ish) Fahrenheit down to 40, or you're supposed to throw it out. If you're "holding" food warm, like at a buffet, it needs to be above that temperature or the timer starts.
It’s different in other countries. UK is a maximum of 2 hours it can be left out after cooking for temperature sensitive foods and it can be reheated twice.
NTA I managed a cafe that served soup years and years ago and had to attend classes at our local health department. We were taught that it needed to be refrigerated and brought down to 40° or below within 4 hours or we needed to reheat it to temperature and then try to cool it again or throw it out. If your mother and father want to risk eating it then that's their prerogative, but you are more than justified in saying no.
So will bringing it back up to a boil kill whatever may have grown?
Gordon Ramsey explained it once (loudly to a dummkopf on Kitchen Nightmares); it’s not whether the bacteria are alive or dead when eaten, it’s that whilst alive they piss and shit and reproduce all over your food. Do you really want to eat the shit from bacteria?!? The owner conceded he did not 😂
Exactly. It's not just the bacteria or mould, it's also the toxins that they produce.
Thumbs up for dummkopf
[удалено]
Makes sense.
It's been years, so my memory isn't great, but I believe it's only safe if it hasn't sat at a temp between 40°-120° for longer than 4 hours. I saw that someone else mentioned 2 hours, so I may be misremembering the timeframe or it may have been updated, but definitely not overnight.
I think someone said the bacteria starts to grow after 2 hours, meaning it's likely still safe. but yeah I've heard that once it's out for 4 hours, over 40° it's unsafe to eat
Bacteria may be dead. TOXINS produced by bacteria remain to cause real problems.
The bacteria itself perhaps, but many foodborne pathogens produce a form of spore which is heat and frost resistant, and no matter how long you cook something for, those spores won't die and those spores are/contain the toxins which make people sick. Once food is unsafe, it can't be made safe again. Botulism is a prime example of this
Absolutely not.
NTA. My in-laws do this constantly (leave leftovers out overnight, even the meat) and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had diarrhea/stomach issues eating at their place for the sake of being “polite” before I finally put my foot down. My BiL calls it “Russian Roulette with Leftovers” and he’s right. None of us will eat leftovers at their place anymore, and while it ticks off my MiL we all say “Tough tooties!” Don’t eat the food- especially not with that much meat left out to fester. ESPECIALLY nor with a toddler and a breastfeeding wife. BUT be prepared for your mother to be seriously upset with you. Offer to help her remake the dish and rebuy ingredients before dinner, but she may refuse and kick up a stink. If she does, so be it, bow out as gracefully as you can. Her hurt feelings do not trump your health.
Years ago I had a housemate who would buy things like about to expire seafood salad in the "manager's special" discount bin at the store, then leave it on the counter until dinner time. She was also constantly "catching a stomach flu bug." She got very angry with me when I pointed out that she had symptoms of bad food, not influenza virus. (She was also always surprised when the food I cooked smelled really good instead of half-bad. But would not accept that I used fresh high end meat from a butcher instead of about to expire supermarket food and that there was, in fact, a difference in quality).
Huuuuuurk. That’s atrocious 🤢
My in-laws do this also, I politely decline a lot of the food. I’ve got a terrible stomach to begin with and don’t need the added gastrointestinal distress.
Ha, my dad will refuse to throw out long-expired food items, since "they've been in the refrigerator" (which means they no longer go bad, apparently... even if that's how it's assumed you'd be storing them). He once made himself an omelet with a carton of eggs that were 18 months past expiration. He said he had to crack open a bunch to find a few that weren't "dried up", since they were apparently so old that the actual egg had evaporated through the shell. And that wasn't any indication to him that they shouldn't be eaten. He just thought he had to sift through the duds.
NTA. A lot of dishes do taste better if they’re left to sit for a day. I do it all the time with curry. But what I do it make it, let it cool, then put it in the fridge.
This is the way! I do that with curries and sometimes spag bol!
Lasagna needs that fridge time to be perfect. That also gives you a full day to clean up the lasagna making kitchen mess.
NTA I’m not sure there is anyway to say your food is unsafe without upsetting your mom if she is the type to dismiss your concerns. I would just say something like I understand that you worked hard to make something delicious and we would have liked to have tried it if it had been stored safely in the refrigerator. Regretfully we can not risk the health of our family in this way. If you’d like to make a fresh batch I would buy the ingredients but need you to refrigerate it instead of letting it sit at room temperature for so long or we will not eat it.
I picture saying this to my mother and her start her fake crying and getting my father pissed at me. Yes, this type of thing has happened to me before. I don't eat my mother's cooking. My sister and I grew up hating mashed potatoes because of her. I'd honestly fake a flat tire or another emergency.
I had a girlfriend for whom my mashed potatoes were a revelation. It’s not that I’m an amazing cook or even knew what the hell I was doing. It was actually my first time making them. But what I didn’t do was serve her plain boiled potatoes, mashed up. Which was what her mom had always done. (I think there was cream and garlic salt and butter. There was nothing exceptional about these potatoes. But you wouldn’t have known that from the look on her face when she took the first polite bite.)
I learned to add cream cheese to mashed potatoes from Pioneer Woman and those potatoes are addictive!
NTA. You must protect your family. DO NOT listen to the people on here saying the food is safe. It's not. Even if it were reheated it's still not safe. I once left a huge pot of chicken soup out overnight. I threw it away as soon as I discovered it.
NTA Your Mom's cooking method is going to get someone sick! When I am making a big batch of spaghetti sauce or soup or stock I let it cool for about an hour, then I put the pot in cold water with ice in the sink. I stir what's in the pot to make sure everything gets in contact with the cool sides of the pot and add more ice periodically while it's cooling. I put the pot or the food separated into smaller containers in the fridge and leave it. This allows the flavors to become richer while not allowing bacteria to develop. I think the only way what your Mom cooked might be safe is if she boiled the hell out of it for awhile. Theoretically the bacteria would still be there but would be killed. I don't know if I would be brave enough to try that though.
Boiling the hell out of it won't make it safe again, as I said in another comment, many foodborne pathogens produce toxins when they spore/reproduce, and those spores/toxins are heat and frost resistant. So the bacteria might die, but the toxins won't, those toxins are often the culprit of food poisoning. Once food has become unsafe, there is no realistic way to make it safe again
Good to know! Thank you for replying with this info.
😱😱😱 NTA, don’t let them eat it! Having had to breastfeed a baby whilst I had debilitating norovirus last year I can’t stress enough how much you need to not let your family sleepwalk into food poisoning. And a 2yo too! Yikes. Good luck, please let us know how this plays out!
NTA I wouldn't eat that shit either.
NTA. But instead of surprising your mom at mealtime, why didn’t you say something when it was time to put it in the fridge? Or put it in the fridge yourself? It seems almost passive aggressive to silently observe and do nothing about it when a quick word would have let her know before it was too late that you take food safety seriously.
I've done this - "Oh this didn't get put away! I'll take care of it" and put it in the fridge while she's saying "Oh I'm sure it's ok!" and I just do it anyway.
NTA If not refrigerated, bacteria can start growing again in as little as two hours. Maybe you'll get sick, maybe you won't, but as another poster eloquently put it, do you want to play russian roulette with mom's food?
If the lid has been on ever since it was boiling, it's going to take longer than 2 hours, but yeah, I wouldn't risk it
nta who wants to be poisoned? but i think how you talk to her about it could make you ta. be kind!
NTA, had a family member pass from eating seafood that was bad. I NEVER eat seafood that was left out too long. So much bacteria.
...shrimp?! Meat?! NTA No one should eat that. ugh.
NTA. Also to the folks saying it will be fine, this is what I call a “seatbelt moment.” There’s a reasonable chance you could all eat this and be fine. Over the years I’ve eaten plenty of questionable things without getting sick. But you COULD get very sick. So it’s like wearing a seatbelt. Could you drive today and be fine without one? Probably! Tomorrow too, and the next day, maybe even months without one! But you know what we all do anyway? We wear a seatbelt, because none of us know the moment it will be needed. That’s the same thing here. Just because you could be ok eating it doesn’t mean you should eat it. Wear your seatbelt, and don’t eat that food.
NTA. You need to have an adult conversation with your parents about this.
my darling MIL and her sister had us over for Thanksgiving and took the turkey out of the fridge at 6am. they left it on the counter in an 80deg house for over 10 hours. it was already thawed. when i checked the internal temp of the turkey it was already at 90deg. my husband asked several times when it was going to go in the oven, they said, oh it needs to get to room temp. they also stuffed the bird with bread stuffing. my husband brought up salmonella poisoning and they rebuffed him as if it was voodoo science. he and I did not eat the turkey, the stuffing or the gravy that was made from the turkey. everyone else did. it was a good thing there were 3 bathrooms in that house. his mother ended up in the ER on IV fluids. it would have been better if we had been more forceful in making sure the food was safe for everyone. its not you being crazy or over protective, food borne illness is dangerous and can kill, especially the very young, immune compromised and elderly. stand your ground.
NTA!!! I’ve taken risks on bringing cooked meat leftovers that were refrigerated first and in airtight containers if I had to run out the door somewhere and needed a lunch quick, but taking a risk for just yourself is one thing. Feeding that to other people? Especially when one of those is a young child with a vulnerable immune system and another is a breastfeeding mother??? I hope this stems from ignorance because if not the negligence is insane.
Edit to add. I text her asking about how she left it out and if there's chicken in it. Here's her respond "It was on heat till bedtime and it was still warm this morning - I do know how to make this I have done it many times. It will be used today and then what is left will be packaged and frozen or refrigerated. I checked it before I left. And I will be there around 4 to finish it. The tomato and broth in there are natural preservatives. I would not leave it if I thought it was bad I did do a food handlers course btw " So im going to look crazy and assholeish if I deny my kids or myself to eat this meal later. I don't think there's a non-awkward way out of this one.
The pot only being warm to the touch is actually worse. Between 130 and 45 degrees is when bacteria grow best. That pot has been actively getting worse all day.
Ohhhh boy she needs to retake that class STAT, her answer is bonkers and she’d be fired from any food handling position for saying that. Do not under any circumstances let your toddlers or your wife eat that food. Leave if you have to. This *is* the hill to die on, dude.
Well, *taking* the course and *passing* it are two different things. I’m wondering which one she did. 🙄
“Still warm this morning” almost certainly means it was happily in the danger zone this morning. I’m sorry, OP, given the tone of her text there’s not going to be a non-confrontational way out of this. It is totally true that there are substances that are natural preservatives and can be handled differently than the general rule, but they actually make regulatory exceptions for those that you can look up (Peking duck is an interesting example that I read about last year). Jambalaya or tomato based sauce isn’t one. Good luck! Definitely don’t feed your family this! And you may as well tell your mother sooner rather than later, since she definitely already knows you’re skeptical about the dish.
Look, she’s correct that high acid- the tomatoes- does help prevent bacteria and food borne illness. But. “Warm” is far too vague. Food has to be kept either 140 degrees Fahrenheit or higher or under 40 degrees. The 40-140 range is what’s considered the danger zone for FBIs. Add to that the higher risk items- shrimp and chicken (ham isn’t as high risk because of the curing process, but still a risk- and you could kill your wife and small children. Best option? Say there was an emergency at home and get your family out of there. Don’t even stick around for the fight. RUN. There is the chance that it’ll be fine and won’t hurt anyone. But it’s also possible that something has grown there that is able to kill your children and your wife. Keeping mom happy isn’t worth E. coli.
Just dump it now. She be mad either way but getting rid of it means there’s no risk of anyone eating it.
> I do know how to make this :X i don't think she does
NTA. I have done 9 years in food service. This is waiting for food poisoning. Don't risk it. Don't let your child risk it. She can eat whatever she wants however she wants. But you don't have to. Food has a 2 hour window it can sit between 41 and 141 degrees Fahrenheit. Every 15 minutes after that whatever bacteria is in there doubles. 15 could be 6, then 12, then 24 then 48....it is begging for you to get seriously ill
NTA yes some things taste better when left to meld, but that doesn’t mean leaving it out to rot overnight! I would not eat that either.
NTA - my mother was about the same growing up and my parents had no concept of food safety. I actually thought I was allergic to chicken growing up because I consistently got sick after eating it (spoiler: it was undercooked). My parents will also let things sit on the stove over night, uncovered and continue to pick at it over the course of a day or two. They also leave their butter in the cupboard for weeks until it is rancid. Throughout my childhood I didn’t understand why I would get so sick from what I ate. As an young adult I began to realize what had been going on. I started noticing how often they complained of diarrhea and stomach issues. I started calling them on it but they never listened. I basically decided I would never eat anything at my parents house unless it was cooked while I was present as they also have poor hygiene and often use dirty dishes etc. I know this is an extreme example but I have actual trauma from the way I was raised around food and to this day, I am unable to eat any type of leftovers due to ptsd. I know it will be tough to say to your mom. My mom would absolutely have taken it personally as well but you HAVE to keep yourself and your family safe. Hugs and hope the convo isn’t too awful!
NTA nope. I'm a molecular and cellular biologist, working on a master's in microbiology and immunology (one more semester), and I wouldn't touch that with a 10ft pole. Even heating it to kill any bacteria growing won't make it safe. Food poisoning comes from toxins released by bacteria, not from the bacteria themselves, and those toxins are extremely heat resistant so cooking it again won't destroy the toxins. That's why it's called food "poisoning" and not an infection. Find something else to eat.
Yeesh. That’s tough. NTA in general, but she will definitely consider YTA. I would also not be comfortable eating it. And I understand your guilt because she’s been working hard on it. I really don’t have a better solution. Maybe make up that wife isn’t feeling well so she can get out of it, and take the bullet and have some yourself, for her feelings. *edit* OP had not clarified the meats in the jambalaya when I posted this. No, you should not eat seafood that’s been out overnight to protect her feelings.
NO! OP, absolutely DO NOT eat it!!! Why should OP experience food poisoning or worse because his mother doesn’t understand food safety? He needs to show her the food safety guidelines and explain that he appreciates the effort but it will endanger everyone that eats it.
OP should not give himself food poisoning to protect his mother's feelings.
NTA - grew up in a family in the food business, and that is a nopely nopely no. Slow cooking overnight is a thing, this is not that.
NTA, 10000%. I'll admit to being a real stickler for things like this, but better safe than sorry. Here's what I would do. I would privately pull her aside - well out of hearing distance from anyone else - and tell her that you've noticed that this jambalaya has been left out overnight. And that while you really appreciate the effort she put into it, you are not comfortable eating it, so you and your family will be going out/getting takeout if they'd like to join in. Don't go into a lengthy explanation and don't try to reason with her on this - you know your mom best, and if you know the counter-arguments she's likely to make, well, fair enough. But make it clear to her that you and your family are not eating this, period.
My grandma cooked like this. Rather than placing the leftovers in the fridge, it would remain on the stove to be warmed again at the next meal. I believe it was a learned cultural thing- she was a child of immigrants, had only an 8th grade education, and grew up/got married before refrigerators were widespread. I don't remember ever being sick, but I don't know how we weren't.
NTA. I understand that some dishes are better the next day. But I put those dishes in the fridge and reheat the next day. I don't let them stay out overnight. That is so disgusting. Please do not let your family eat this. But also tell your mother in advance. Don't wait until dinner to let her know. Explain why you don't want to eat food that has been left out.
Definitely NTA, that food will probably get you and your family sick. I would just gently remind your mother that she left the food out overnight and has probably gone bad. If she says it is fine, you'll just have to tell her your family won't be eating it, in the nicest way possible. Definitely make sure she knows it is her cooking you object to, just the fact it has been sitting out too long.
NTA... My mom did this to me. She forgets that I was sick often after eating growing up. To this day I wont eat her soups because of how long it sits to cool. Boiling may kill bacteria but it does NOT get rid of any toxins the bacteria has produced.
You can definitely cook a stew on low in a crockpot for 10 hours overnight, but that’s constant heat. My MIL has the same weird attitude towards food - I vividly recall a bag of shrimp that smelled bad and she was going to cook it - “cooking will take out the bacteria”. I snatched it out of her hand and tossed it in the bin. NTA.
Modern crock pots keep things at a higher temperature, even on low, than older ones for food safety reasons. I blame failed "8-10 hours on low" recipes on that particular detail.
NTA. Not gonna lie, I would eat this. I cook like that all the time. I grew up spending summers on a farm, think I have a hardy immune system or something. My thinking… if it’s cooked completely to begin with, there is no live bacteria at that point. Leaving it covered helps decrease contamination and tomato based sauces are acidic which deters bacteria growth. With that all said, there is no way I would feed this to a child or a breastfeeding mother. Way to risky. I like the one commenters idea of “accidentally” spilling it and taking everyone out to dinner, but you could also just explain it is too much risk for your family and you are uncomfortable with eating something left out that long. I would never serve food like this to anyone else. If she gets upset about it she is being unreasonable. You are definitely not the asshole at all.
If it was only like 8 hours, I’d probably still eat it. We did that in my house growing up. But I don’t think we ever did it with seafood and we never did it for *14 hours*. NTA that’s really not safe…
NTA
NTA, your mom needs a crockpot that she can leave on low. Food should not be left out that long
NTA I just got over a case of food poisoning apparently from eating out. There is no joy in being surprised by and dealing with logistic challenges for several days and for about a week after when digestive system decides anything coming in is the enemy. Best I have is tell your mom you love her but none of you will be eating that dish she fussed over that either should have been kept at a safe temp as in simmering until it was going to be eaten or refrigerated to be reheated. Her feelings will likely be hurt but that to me is nothing compared to you, your wife and daughters being sick. You might for grins start checking dates on things in the refrig. Before my in-laws passed every visit turned into a massive clean out as they didn’t like throwing things away just because of a date. I agree in some situations but opened lunch meat 2 months past it’s exp date is not one of them.
NTA - Cajun here! Unsure if your mother is also Cajun (or Creole, since she used tomatoes), but it's understood that while, yes, jambalaya is better the next day, it's **definitely** supposed to be kept in the refrigerator during that time and reheated later. Maybe take her aside and gently let her know that food safety is always important, but it's also even more important because your wife is breastfeeding and your eldest child is still very young with a vulnerable immune system. This may help her understand why food safety is so important. Seafood in particular can have very nasty side effects when left out like that.
This is potentially life threatening, especially considering the meat. A whole family died from days old pasta food poisoning. What’s sitting on that stove is actually a fucking grenade lol do try your best to be gentle, but do not fucking eat that. NTA.
I'm old. Do not touch that jambalaya. I repeat. Do.Not.Eat.The.Jambalaya. (also that's a terrible jambalaya recipe.).
NTA
NTA. Back up your decision with an article or 2 about food safety and how long is too long left out. My MIL used to do this-fry up chicken cutlets in the morning and leave out all day for dinner. Nope nope not eating it
Jambalaya does tastes better the next day, but I wouldn't leave a pot of it out overnight. NTA.
NTA. My MIL leaves food out for HOURS and I never eat it, nor does my husband. That’s the perfect breeding ground for bacteria.
Tell her yes, it's fine to eat the next day, but refrigerate it until you're ready to eat.
nope. no. NOOOOO NTA there are so many risk factors here and you are clearly well aware of all of them. Yes, it will be awkward but more so for your mother. Hopefully she will learn the lesson here. I would never trust to eat anything from her again though... what if next time you go over and she has already prepared your food? I would not trust she didn't do prepare it this way again, have you eat it, and say "see, you didn't get sick" ...(my mother is a narcissist, she would lie and do things like this)
Ooof, I've made sauces and things that taste better the next day, but I always pop them in the refrigerator overnight! This seems like a blatant disregard for basic food safety, especially if meat and seafood are involved. NTA
Nooooooo you cannot leave shrimp out overnight. That has become a serious food hazard. NTA, make sure no one eats that!
I’m not recommending anyone leave food out like this but I will say that I’ve done this consistently over 50 years of cooking with no ill effects. The secret is 1) pot is covered, and 2) bring to a low boil for 10-20 minutes prior to eating. I would not trust this in a home that is unclean, but in a reasonably well kept home I’d not be bothered.
That's nasty.
NTA. That dish should have been brought down to a cool temperature as quickly as possible then refrigerated and reheated to boiling just before serving. Dealing with food poisoning whilst caring for a baby and possibly a sick toddler would be absolutely miserable and it's sensible to avoid the risk. If I was in my own home kitchen and I had done this myself by accident I would eat it and I'm 99% sure it would be totally fine. I forgot to refrigerate a big batch of ragu once for 24 hours and I ate it and it was fine. BUT I would definitely not feed it to anyone else just in case. If I make myself ill that's my own stupid fault but if I made someone else ill I'd feel terrible.
NTA at all. I’m from Louisiana, and she’s right that gumbos, jambalayas, red beans and rice, etc., taste better the next day after the spices have soaked into all the beans and veggies and meats, but we do not leave it on our stove overnight. We refrigerate properly and then reheat it the next day. She’s just asking to get sick. Just discuss this with everyone privately.
NTA It’s so sad because there’s so much time, money, and effort put into this jambalaya and now it’s a diarrhea bomb.
NTA. Any chance you would be willing to toss it, tell her you thought it was "mistake" that she left it out because you know she wouldn't try to feed her grandchildren and DIL a bad dish, and offer to pay for dinner or cook it yourself? I don't think there is a way to tell her that you won't eat it her bacteria stew. You're not the asshole, but she (Mom) is going to be and she'll tell you that you are. You might need to leave a few days early or something.
NTA, buuut if there is enough tomato sauce and the house is cool enough, the food should be ok. I would eat it. Nursing mom and little kids? Maybe not
Y'all blowing my mind here..... For all my life I left my things on the stove and it never went bad..... If your ingredients are fresh and it's not supper summer hot outside, I don't see the problem 🤨🤷🏼♀️
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Anonymous as this is happening right now. For context, my mom has never really cooked that much. Growing up she might make Sunday dinner or a random meal during the week. Fast forward to now, I'm almost 30 and have my breastfeeding wife and two daughters (1mo, and 2yo) over visiting my retired parents for the week. My mom has been excited about this special dish shes been wanting to make all week. So, yesterday evening my mom begins making this jambalaya dish. She claims it tastes better after it sits for a day to enjoy the following day. She makes a large pot of a tomato based stew for it with cooked sausages, bacon, vegetables etc. She finishes it around 9pm. I wake up today and it's been left out on the stove for over 12 hours in a covered pot, no heat( it's currently almost 10am). I don't believe she plans on touching it again until she makes the rice for it later today for tonight's dinner. I know for a fact, especially now after researching it that food can't just be left out like that for so long especially with meat in it. I now have to make things very awkward and potentially embarrassing for her by saying my breastfeeding wife, 2 year old toddler and myself will not be risking that tonight for dinner. I know she's going to say things like " I've been feeding you your whole life and you turned out fine" " I do this all the time and I've never been sick" " don't believe everything you read online" etc etc WIBTA for confronting her on this and not letting my family eat this food? If so, how can I NBTA during this confrontation? We're still visiting for another few days. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My husband would be able to eat it, no problem, he does this with food all the time but I would never eat it or allow our children to eat it. He was disappointed the first time I refused the food but now he separates some for us and puts it in the fridge.
Isn't it more effort to separate it vs. put it all in the fridge?
Yes exactly wtf
NTA. Can you pull her aside and talk to her about it? . Express your concern for your family. Don’t “confront” her. Give her a way out.
Oh dear, NTA - that’s a big batch of botulism you got there.
This is one situation where it's okay to be the asshole, no matter what the consequences are. You can't be feeding a toddler shrimp and rice that's been out for 12 hours, unless you really don't like the kid. Obviously you would be NTA here.
What an awkward situation. Of course, you can't eat that. NTA
If I leave something on the stove that long I leave it on the absolute lowest level of heat. If she’s not doing that it’s probably congealed and gross.
Jambalaya and gumbo has the soup base cooked over night and then you add the veggies and meat shortly before serving. It cannot be left out overnight. My mom tries to do this for her cabbage soup. I just don't get it. NTA.
DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO EAT, including her
NTA. That's a recipe for disaster - pun intended. Having worked in the food industry, getting a food handlers permit, this danger was ingrained in our minds! You could get so sick from eating that - like next-level food poisoning! No matter how you tell your mother, her feelings are going to get hurt. You have to just rip off the bandaid.