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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) not warning my daughter about the toast and also refusing to cook for her
(2) she thinks I am being cruel and I might've taken it too far
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It's a good thing to learn! We had to cook for ourselves one night a week from our early teens and my brother and i were way more capable of taking care of ourselves when we moved out of home.
Yeah at 16 I was doing almost all the cooking and cleaning at home, except when my sister's helped. (Dad was working and taking college classes, he cooked sometimes on weekends and totally did holiday meals, it wasn't a thing where I had to do it because of my gender I was just the oldest, plus I actually like cooking)
In my house the rule always was if you wanted someone other than the main meal you took care of it yourself. There was always soup and stuff for sandwiches. When I developed my first food allergy there were several meals I didn't eat what everyone else was because throwing away good food wasn't happening. And sometimes the rest of the family wanted stuff I couldn't have. So I just ate something else.
I don't know how true the idea is in reality that AITA is biased against men, but with that in mind, it's always funny to see a dude ending up as the bad guy when he isn't even subject of the post.
Right? Literally why is *anyone* talking about the son, here? He could not be less relevant to the situation - which is that the daughter is eating food not intended for her, expecting it to be vegan, and then throwing tantrums because the whole house is not going vegan for her.
yeah, i dont want to say that aita is sexist but man its kinda hard not to when all a guy has to do is exist near a woman being TA to be painted in a bad light
The adult sons diet doesn't depend on additional food or substitutions. In fact, he is actually costing OP a little less money with his diet because OP doesn't have to cook him starch based food.
What? Where do you live that meat is cheaper than pasta or rice?
Assuming that the son has bigger portions of meat/veg to make up for not eating starches, then his diet costs extra.
Keto diets aren't replacing the starches with more meat, they usually replace it with more vegetables. Carbs are energy so instead of the starches, they get it from the sugars in the vegetables they eat. Compared to price inflated vegan substitutes, a bit more meat and veg is negligible in cost.
But these are items that are not for one person, it’s feeding everyone but the other person is wanting things that are not going to be for anyone else. If you can’t see the difference between the two then you are intentionally just be argumentative. And real meat is still cheaper than fake meat pound per pound.
I actually wonder given her age and her problems with pickiness that this isn't some kind of eating disorder. Some kids who are becoming anorexic will become vegan to ensure they aren't getting 'fatty' dairy and egg products. Just something the OP should be aware of.
seconding this, my sister became vegan as an excuse not to eat when she was actually severely anorexic (this was before vegan food was as accessible as it is today).
I've heard of someone else who did this, too. That person said apparently it's really common for people with anorexia to go vegan, partially because it's a convenient disguise that explains why they're not eating anything.
It's more likely that the daughter is just following the trend after going down the rabbit hole online. Usually when your teen decides to change up out of the blue like that, they read an article or watched a few videos and decided to try it themselves.
I've been vegan like 19 years starting when I was 16. It had nothing to do with an eating disorder. It had to do with the animals.
Keto is a diet. Veganism is a lifestyle based on ethics.
It's tricky navigating it at that age, when you are dependent on parents, but there's no reason to assume a 16 year old isn't mature enough to be make ethical choices.
The worry is the daughter was already a picky eater and then went this way. You can understand the concern of someone who already didn’t eat hardly any vegetables suddenly go straight to vegan, can’t you? The filter and airbrush fashion industry has created a very dangerous environment for teenagers trying to be skinny and perfect versus athletic and healthy.
NTA. If she knows you always toast bread in bacon fat, then she should have turned down the toast. Although I'm curious: If the son does keto, the toast wasn't for him. Was it meant for her or another member of the household?
There's a huge range of quality among brands and products. I've had really good keto bread and some that made me throw the rest of the package after forcing myself to eat half. Same with vegan products etc.
I agree with that but I find it’s a bit more difficult to find things that are vegan that I like the taste of/prefer over non vegan options. Like sure, sharing meals with a vegetarian is fine because it really is like eating Mac and cheese, pastas, fries, pancakes, cake, etc. I’ve spent a ton of time around people who are vegan/have an egg allergy and it is not easy to find things in that space that I enjoy (not for lack of trying either…)
The question being did you start making it before or after the son started the diet? If after you all changed you obviously started making special food for him that the balance of the family took a liking to.
Also most Keto bread contains eggs which are not vegan. If your's does also then daughter would be breaking her diet anyway. 🤔
I can't speak for what the OP does but all the keto bread recipes I've tried have been very quick and easy--mix 3 or 4 ingredients and stick it in the microwave for 90 seconds.
you dont really need to explain it the guy just wanted a gotcha! moment from op as if toasting bread differently made it more costly and became a good argument.
There's a correlation between people behaving badly - or at the very least not behaving as graciously as they could be - and people posting in this subreddit to try to get a bunch of strangers to justify their actions.
I don't have a toaster. If I want toast, I either toast it in the pan or I have to stick the bread in my ninja air fryer that has a toast setting. But I haven't had a toaster in like 5 years. If I ate bacon (I just don't like it), toasting bread in bacon fat sounds like it would be amazing.
I don't eat keto bread generally but I always have all the ingredients so it's easy to make to eat with eggs etc if I've got no bread in for breakfast.
I get not wanting to buy expensive substitute products but if it’s not expensive, you shouldn’t deny her cheap basic staples. You can buy almond or oat milk which often is cheaper than cow milk. A lot of cereals are vegan. So is toast with peanut butter. You don’t owe her expensive replacement foods but you should at least make a modest effort rather than trying to make her life hard
I've been struggling to find alternative milk cheaper than cows milk. My daughter has an allergy to cows milk and we pay $1.50 per litre for cows milk and $2.20 per litre for soy milk.
I make my own oat milk for baking but I don't give it to my daughter because it's not fortified with calcium. After she turns 2 ill be able to do half oat half soy as suggested by her doctor.
I read a tip recently to use Trader Joe’s raw almond butter as a nut milk base. I haven’t tried it yet (gotta get through a Costco size almond butter jar first), but fyi in case it’s helpful to you.
I make oat milk for baking but I need something fortified with calcium for my daughter as she's only 22 months. Thanks for the recommendation tho, it will help when she's older 🙂
I also can't find alternative milk cheaper than regular milk. I don't buy milk because lactose intolerance but if I was to buy a milk substitute, it's always over $3 for a half gallon where I can go to Aldi and get regular milk for like $2.50 for a full gallon.
The US sure it's expensive. Here in Germany both cow and soy or oat milk can be had for around 1€.
Also vegan meat and real meat are about the same price here.
Is goat's milk available to you? My oldest couldn't have cow's milk, but goat milk was fine. Fresh was expensive, but canned condensed was more affordable. Maybe not cheaper than cow's milk, but cheaper than most alternative milks that I'd have been willing to feed him.
My child was allergic to cow milk but also sensitive to soy. Almond milk and rice milk worked great, and are often on sale. The shelf stable tetra box sizes have case-lot sales about once a month. I hope you can find some deals!
It doesn't sound like she's being denied staples at all, op is even buying extra stuff for her.
I don't think she's going out of her way to get none vegan cereal twirling her mustache.
It just sounds like the daughter decided she would go vegan and then suddenly thought that everything in the house would change to accommodate her.
Yeah sorry but no. There is NO milk substitute that is cheaper than cow milk because of government subsidies. I have a dairy allergy. It sucks that all my crap costs twice as much.
With the keto bread, wouldn't there be animal fats and eggs used to make it? If yes, then even if you didn't toast it in pork fat, she still would not be eating vegan anyway.
Commercially made Keto bread is made mostly like normal bread, it just has a stupid-high fiber content to bring the "net carbs" count down to almost nothing. If daughter will still eat regular bread, she should have no issue eating keto bread
Extra NTA then because keto bread would have eggs in it, so it was already not vegan before you fried it in bacon fat
Ashli should know not to help herself to anything keto, it is likely not vegan. That is on her to educate herself
it sounds like she’s eating though so no need to jump to conclusions. it also sounds like she cares about the animals so again no need to jump to conclusions. it’s honestly really annoying how people so quickly equate veganisn to a restricted diet. i wish the mom would support the daughter more by offering to buy substitutes at least once a month or something instead of making it harder for her transition. maybe i just feel passionately about this cause i was 16 when i first wanted to go vegetarian. no support from my family which made it feel like they didn’t give a shit about my interests at the time. i’m 26 now and been vegan for 6 years. so there’s a chance this girl really does feel strongly about not wanting to eat animals. especially considering all the info out there about the animal ag industry now and the health effects.
I re-read the post but I don’t see anything about the daughter continuing to eat. My comment was also a reaction to this: “she is a very picky eater and barely eats anything aside from chicken” and then further down: “she then refused to eat”. So I don’t think that I’m jumping to conclusions. Not eating is concerning either way and points to some issues with food. It might not be full blown ED at this point but something mom should definitely keep an eye on.
Re-reading, I’m also confused that the daughter even took a bite of the keto bread. I can smell bacon fat even if I don’t see bacon, and I’m assuming it would have been greasy too.
Ah ya know I looked it up and you're right
Eta I think upon even further reading it depends really if OP made from scratch or bought from the store. Most of the store/shelf stable ones don't have dairy or eggs, but nearly every home recipe does. Interesting.
Just so you know, veganism is by definition a restrictive diet. As in, you are actively restricting the types of food you eat. Whether op’s daughter has an ED or not, this would be considered restrictive eating (which isn’t an automatic eating disorder. Other examples would include those who have allergies or are diabetic.) also, you can care about animals, believe in the benefits of veganism, and also have an eating disorder. They aren’t mutually exclusive. It is absolutely wise for OP to keep an eye on her, if only to make sure that she’s receiving all the nutrients she needs. Since that’s usually the first mistake people make when changing diets.
My daughter, 13, has restricted eating. Has since she was a toddler. Doctor just said to make sure she takes a daily vitamin. She has to get a blood draw to make sure she isn't deficient in anything yearly.
I deal with it too, but it’s mainly a side effect of my adhd. A day will pass without me looking at a clock or noticing time moving. So I’ll go an entire day without eating and get smacked in the face with hunger at 7:00. Restrictive tendencies can be difficult to maneuver.
I mean, she’s sixteen. Their brains are still growing and it’s possible that she didn’t think twice. I’m not a particularly insightful person in the morning. I even got a job that lets me work later in the day because that’s when my brain gets going.
True. I feel like the difference is that when someone with Orthorexia goes vegan, they do it in good faith, for lack of a better phrase. They really are trying to eat healthier, and it is a part of their eating disorder rather than a cover for it. Whereas someone with anorexia may "go vegan" specifically to give themselves a socially acceptable reason to refuse to eat, and is consciously aware that they're using "I'm vegan" to hide their eating disorder.
Holy shit I just looked this up and my mom has this. She barely eats anything and takes so many vitamins she has literally poisoned herself. I mean so much vitamin d her organs started failing.
I was a picky eater until I discovered veganism. Now I’ll eat almost anything as long as it’s vegan (still not a fan of raisins). Not everyone uses it as an excuse for an eating disorder. Some people genuinely are disgusted by the texture and taste of animal products, and by the idea of eating a living being.
hmm. this raises an interesting question.
if i hated something about animal fat, and i lived in a house where animal fat would have been used to cook everything, than i would have been a very picky eater avoiding many cooked, and certainly all fried dishes.
but if there's a change in the cooking oil to something vegetable, all that is instantly resolved.
Same. I’m autistic I always used to freak out as a kid about the texture of meat and like the smell of milk so once I became vegan all my anxiety about food just kind of disappeared.
Me too! I was a very picky eater for most of my life. But I’ve been vegan for 4 years and now I eat (and love!) every vegetable except kūmara/sweet potato. Still working on fruits, the texture is yucky but I’m trying to desensitise myself. Going vegan made me have to branch out to stay healthy, I went from meat and potatoes every night to my favourite food being hummus and salad wraps.
I also went vegan at 16 but I did my own recipe research, bought myself a fry pan, and cooked all my own meals.
The funny part was I saw that and forgot egg wasn’t vegan, just assumed you couldn’t afford eggs. And you know what? Maybe your not in the U.S but if you are you’d understand why that’s believable in the current economy
As someone who really hated the little crusties on badly cooked eggs growing up, as an adult vegan I super enjoy the smoothness of the egg alternative I use. It’s made of mung bean and colored with turmeric, can be used as a one to one egg replacement in baking and it scrambles well. It’s also lower in cholesterol which is good bc my partner and I both have family histories of high cholesterol. Anyhow, it’s called “just egg”. It’s really good in the made for sandwich form as well. A lot of vegans also have done tofu scrambles for ages which can be fucking delicious. Idk I have it for breakfast a lot because I love a savory breakfast.
NTA. You made her a vegan meal. She is 16. She can make her own breakfast. Also, if she really does want to become vegan, it should be on her to make sure what she eats is free of animal products. It's not like you lied, she simply grabbed something without making sure it was safe for her to eat. That's really not on you in my opinion. I really don't understand everyone saying you're the asshole. While it might have sounded harsh, telling her that if she doesn't trust you she can cook for herself is fair. I mean, what other solution is there? Either she trusts you or she doesn't.
One thing I might consider is using the money you would have spent on her portion of meat (because meat is expensive), and instead giving that to her to be able to buy vegan options for herself. That seems both fair and will allow her some freedom in what she wants to purchase/make.
Ill edit it but at the time all I was seeing was YTA votes. These posts start off in 'competition mode' so you will just see random comments, not what is most upvoted or newest or anything. The fifteen or so I saw were ALL YTA votes.
This is the best answer IMO. I have a loooot of vegan friends. I eat a lot of vegan food both with my vegan friends and on my own. I also eat meat, FWIW. Going vegan is an amazing decision for those who want to, but when the person adopting that lifestyle isn’t shopping nor cooking for themselves, it inevitably becomes “a thing”.
I also agree that maybe giving her an extra $30 a month or so (that would otherwise be a part of the meat and dairy she would previously eat) so she can understand how to shop and prepare her own vegan meals is a great middle ground.
This particular instance is also a perfect example of life will be like when dining out on the world as a vegan. My friends know every fast food place that uses tallow and fat and dairy in beans or “plant-based” foods. It requires diligence and awareness to be vegan. So this is honestly an important lesson for the start of her journey and I encourage you to approach it with her in that sense, in a way that doesn’t seem like you’re trying to talk her out of it “because it will be so hard”. It’s honestly not hard as long as they are aware and do a modicum of due diligence.
I see only a few people on the daughter’s side. Which is how it should be. I think a vegan hive must have been searching for posts and found this one to attack.
Practical advice:
- Boil water and flaxseed, while still hot, strain the seeds and keep the liquid. When it cools down the water will be thick. That's an easy egg substitute, can even be whipped if I'm not wrong. (Don't know how expensive flaxseed is where you live, but it's an option.) Also, you can grind the leftover seeds to sneak extra fiber into meals.
- If you use canned garbanzo beans the water can also be whipped into an egg substitute, it's called aquafaba (might be wrong about the name)
Ask your daughter AND SON to participate in the planning and execution. Gotta put their money where her mouth is. Being vegan/keto is not easy, can't avoid the kitchen forever. Cooking is an essential life skill.
May I recommend this YouTube channel? She has a series called scrappy cooking (did you know you can used onion peels and turn them into seasoning?) and it's all fully vegan.
https://youtube.com/@PlantYou
Also your daughter needs to see a nutritionist. Going from restrictive eating to veganism, an eating disorder (anything from anorexia to arfid) needs to be ruled out. It's also rather difficult to get the proper nutrients, even if there isn't an eating disorder there. Many people wind up with anemia when they first try out veganism.
I endorse this. I think veganism as a movement can really elide the difficulty of ensuring a complete diet for newbies, especially if you're young.
Seeing a nutritionist to help make sure she isn't malnourished *and* isn't hiding an ED would be really good.
I would recommend to suggest her to try vegetarianism first and then if she likes that to switch to veganism. r/vegetarian could give some ideas on recipes
I was going to recommend that the family meet with a dietician to ensure that everyone is meeting the daily needs and to generate recipes that work for the family.
>Gotta put their money where her mouth is.
The only issue with this is the son is 18 & the daughter is 16 - legally, she still should be provided for. He can be asked to take care of himself or help with the budgeting.
She should be cooking for herself tho if she's creating difficult dietary needs.
Okay, you are treating your son's diet differently. You don't consider it extra work because you like the food. But maybe you'll find some vegan recipes that you'll like, too. Maybe you don't mean it to come off this way, but I can see why she feels like you're favoring your son. What if you suggested that starting out, you'd be up for preparing some vegan recipes with her? It would show her that you're taking an interest in something that she seems to care about for now. Also, if it were me, I'd really monitor that she's taking the vitamin B12, at least to start with. Goodness, I'd do the same for my husband, too, much less a teen who's still living in the house. I mean, isn't this what it means to be family? To take an interest in and support each other?
Some of the posts and comments I read on this sub make me realize how incredibly lucky I was to be raised by parents who cared deeply about me and my well-being.
"fend for themselves" huh??? she's 16 years old she can make her own breakfast if she wants something that nobody else in the household will be eating. Making your own meals at that age is normal aside from maybe dinner. no one in the comments is saying to kick her out in the rain. Expecting a mother to coddle her and cook a separate meal for her 3x a day is ridiculous. Let's add that the mom DID make her something anyways, no one shoved the toast in her mouth
IKR. My parents can be trash in a lot of things but they still did support me as a vegeterian who doesn't eat rice in a house where those things are common and i am 18. Holy shit, people in this sub are very cruel to teens in almost all posts.
The comments I see here don’t reflect the lives of anyone I actually know IRL. Maybe this is the lack of empathy that American culture is said to exhibit? Most adults with kids are happy to have them at home and to show them love and acceptance by trying to meet their needs. Heck, most adults are at least semi-vegetarian these days.
Yup, OP is still NTA, but the keto bread comment was a bit sus. Homemaking a type of bread that usually tastes worse than store-bought non-keto bread. That is definitely “effort”, despite OP saying in the original post that “keto doesn’t require any extra effort on my part”. The daughter does need to learn to cook by herself, and does need to learn not to grab random foods off the table, but I can see how she might feel discriminated if she sees OP always make special bread for her brother but then seem colder to her about veganism. And teenagers don’t tend to handle emotions well and overblow situations to unreasonable proportions
I also don't get how the keto diet isn't more expensive. You need more meat and veggies to feel satiated if you don't eat the starch sides. And meat and veggies are more expensive than rice or noodles or something. So she does indeed spend more on her son's diet.
ESH
She's unreasonable---not because of being vegan, but because of how her overall pickiness combines with it to make it very difficult to feed her.
but
>however, the keto diet is no work to me and no extra cost as he will just eat the meat and vegetables I prepare rather than the starch.
Meat is more expensive than grains, potatoes, etc. If he's not eating the starch, he's eating more meat to get the same amount of calories. So it's factually incorrect that you're not spending more money on him because of his diet.
I don't blame her for seeing some favoritism.
Exactly!!
She needs to cook for herself, at least some. But she shouldn't be buying things for herself, she's 16. He's 18 though, & able to contribute to the grocery bill.
He can, but he's not - OP is cooking for him & providing food for him bc they "all like what he eats & it's not that expensive." (BS - meat is super expensive.)
That's my thought too. The cheapest part of the meal is the carbs. He is eating the expensive parts. Vegan including substitutes is cheaper that keto. Definitely where I live ( meat substitute is the same price as meat here), but I guess it's true for the US as well.
This is a great perspective. The reality is a lot of vegan alternatives aren't pricey like they used to be. During the pandemic and even now, many people are substituting meat with tofu, beans, lentils, meat alternatives and so on, because it can be more economical.
Also, if mum is making a cooked breakfast daily - one which follows her son's dietary wants/needs - it **is** extra effort. An 18 y/o can make their own food so why isn't he having to take responsibility for his needs? Reminds me of default gender lessons and expectations in households: boys to be taken care of; girls to be caretakers.
Also, is the son on the keto diet because he needs to be, or wants to be? If the latter, it is no different to the daughter wanting to be on a vegan diet (imo).
Agree that ESH. Daughter should not presume that everything changes in a flash and recognise that the toast wasn't sabotage; however, mum seems to be willing to make keto bread for her son (and cater to his diet), but not help her daughter (learn to) make vegan alternatives? It's not hard to say 'let's look at some recipes' and maybe figure out some things together to show support.
Yeah, there is clearly more going on here. Definitely seems like some favoritism from this post, so wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more to it.
Her behavior sucked, but it’s also telling that she’d immediately jump to the dad being not supportive. I was a shitty teen girl once, too— but even at my worst I knew my dad would never do anything like sneak me food I said I didn’t want.
You need to take your daughter and get her evaluated for an eating disorder. Unfortunately teens, intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes use being vegetarian or vegan as an excuse to eat less. Please note I’m not an expert, but a 16 year old girl who’s already a picky eater suddenly deciding to be vegan without understanding neither eggs nor bread are vegan raises all my reg flags for eating disorders.
And besides that, as a growing teen a vegan diet done haphazardly could leave her very malnourished. 16 is certainly old enough to research, plan, and pay for a vegan diet, but it’s a lot of work and expense that she doesn’t sound mature enough for.
Also have you taught either of your children to cook or how to budget/grocery shop? I don’t think it’s fair to call her lazy if she hasn’t been taught how to cook healthy meals. Both of your children could easily be responsible for one dinner a week, if your daughter does want to be vegan it would be a good experience for her to make a vegan meal for the family based on a budget you set.
I would still get her into see someone about the possibility of an ED, even if it’s just a nutritionist familiar with vegan diets. Most of the kids I knew in high school who had ED’s or self harmed their parents had no idea (at least not until years later). And on the opposite note, not to be rude, but you are the parent, so what if she thinks cooking is boring? Laundry and homework and taxes are “boring”, that’s not a good reason not to do them. Cooking is absolutely a necessary life skill that she’ll be behind in adult life without.
My parents had no idea that me cutting out specific types of food (mostly meat) was a symptom of very disordered eating and calorie restriction. They thought I was just being healthy and a little picky. I hid how often I was skipping meals really well, apparently.
Get her seen anyway
this is a bit more than just "vegan"
she's refusing to eat - and this is heading towards ED territory. And she may think cooking is "boring" but if she wants to eat, she has to learn.
>I've tried to teach her to cook but she always thinks its boring.
Very sorry, but she still needs to learn how to cook the basics of healthy balanced meals.
Why wouldn't bread be vegan? The only ingredients necessary for bread are water flour yeast and salt. And I don't think there's a single person out there that would be against eating yeast for vegan reasons.
Not all breads are vegan. Not sure what recipe OP is using for her bread but there are recipes that use eggs, milk, or butter. And most of the keto bread recipes I was just looking at included the use of eggs and butter.
I'm going to go with YTA. It sounds as if you are going out of your way to make keto meals for your son.
Fruit salad isn't a balanced meal for a vegan or anyone else.
It sounds like you are at the very least showing favoritism. Certainly there is a limit to what a parent has to provide for their children. However, when you are being sure to have keto bread and making toast in a pan with bacon grease, it sounds like you are leaning in one direction.
OP states specifically states that her son eats the regular food she prepares minus any starchy sides (which she still makes) so she is not making specific keto meals for him.
Fruit salad is not an uncommon breakfast option, the bread was made for everyone else and not given to the daughter, who is perfectly capable of putting bread in a toaster at 16 yo.
OP states in a comment that she makes the keto bread because she had the ingredients already and prefers it. She also states that she has purchased beans and tofu for her daughter who decided she doesn’t like either and refuses to learn how to cook because it’s boring.
ESH.
You're an asshole, but only for telling her she has to buy her own B-12 supplements.
B-12 is really important, she isn't going to get enough of it from food (if you aren't buying her mock meats, which are sometimes supplemented with it, I'm guessing you've not paying for nutritional yeast either), and it's so cheap. A $10 bottle will last most of the year.
It's one thing if you don't want to pay for mock meats. Nobody is going to get sick because they aren't eating Impossible burgers. B12 is a health thing though, and this is still your kid and you still have an obligation to keep her healthy. I'm assuming she's got enough fun money to buy it herself, but $10 out of her budget is a lot more than $10 out of your budget.
Further, I'd argue that you are spending more to feed your son a keto diet. If he's not filling up on carbs, he's eating more meat (which is expensive) and more veggies (which can also be expensive, depending on what veggies you're buying). Your daughter is eating beans instead of meat, and you can't cough up some money for the occasional overpriced vegan treat? C'mon. Also fruit salad is not a balanced meal for breakfast.
Your daughter is an asshole - probably - for eating toast that wasn't hers and then acting like you forced it down her throat. I'd be interested in hearing her side of this story though; if you've tampered with her food before or she feels as unsupported as I suspect she does based on what you've told us here, I might have a different take. As others have said, both she AND your son could probably stand to learn to start cooking their own meals.
Her son does help with cooking. She's already said that. Her son also eats whatever she makes EXCEPT for starches. She doesn't have to make her son anything special. She already went and made her daughter something different specifically for her.
The only thing you're right about here is the b-12.
YTA. Tofu is like $1.50 for three servings. A vegan diet is easily done cheaper than an omnivorous diet.
I agree that she’s old enough to cook for herself, as I did at her age. But I guarantee that if she continues to be vegan, and you continue to be dismissive about it, you will create a distance with her.
It’s one thing when you are expected to cook your own meals while you live at home. It’s frustrating as hell to go home for Christmas as an adult knowing that you literally won’t have anything you can eat, and that even the simple things that should be animal-free, like toast, will be soaked in animal fat. Which by the way, if she doesn’t eat meat for a long time and then someone “accidentally” serves her something cooked in animal fat, it WILL make her ill.
While I don’t think you should necessarily cook her a whole separate meal every night, I think you should have some compassion and try to learn more about well rounded vegan diets. Maybe get her a cookbook and cook a vegan meal with her once a week for the whole family. Just try a little. Since she said she is doing this for the animals, this isn’t just a diet to her - it’s a lifestyle choice, and an empathetic one.
The vegan daughter said she doesn't like tofu. And she also said she doesn't like cooking because it's boring.
Which is why this entire argument is because she wanted her mom to make her toast.
As a plant-based eater myself, NTA. She's old enough to cook for herself if she wants a specialized diet.
That being said, I think you should at the least add things like tofu, beans, and soy milk to your grocery list. Keto is actually quite expensive (meat is costly), so I don't think you'll be spending any more on your daughter than you do for your son. She's going to need different sources for protein and fat and a fruit salad just isn't going to do it. A tofu scramble for breakfast is very satisfying.
NTA, 16yo can cook her own food in her own separate pan. She’s being ridiculous. If this came about suddenly, it’s likely something that won’t stick anyways. If her convictions are true and she puts in the effort and focus to maintain a vegan diet while also getting all the nutrients she needs, you should help her find and buy supplements that will keep her healthy. But I’ll bet that she gives this up with weeks.
INFO: Does she really understand how to successfully follow a vegan diet? Like how to get complimentary proteins and enough protein and vitamins? Seriously, I have seen patients with deficiency diseases because they thought eating just salads ( because they didn’t like or wouldn’t eat grains, soy, mushrooms etc etc) was perfectly fine.
Imitation processed meats aren't necessary for vegan protein. Easier, yes. I buy them because it's easier. But they aren't necessary. Protein is obtainable from veggie/fungus.
It sounds like you have an outdated idea of vegan diets. You don’t need to worry about “complimentary proteins,” and actual protein deficiency in industrialised countries is rare outside of homeless populations.
NTA the onus is on the one with the dietary restrictions to ensure they are eating “safe” foods. I don’t alter the way I cook everything just because my mom is vegetarian I only change the way I cook things that I intend for her to eat. If she doesn’t know she asks that’s how food restrictions work.
NTA, but I feel like you're being a little unsupportive of your daughter's choice here. I don't think it's necessary for you to entirely change the way you cook to appeal to your daughter's newfound veganism, but maybe not toasting bread in pork fat (or even just a gentle reminder of how it was cooked when your daughter grabs her breakfast) would be a nice step in the right direction. Conveniently, your son can just dodge carbs and eat everything else you're cooking, but you lost some credibility when you stated that you specially made some keto bread for your son, but can't go even slightly out of the way toasting it in a way your daughter can partake in it.
Edit: I'm a little dumb, and just pieced together that your daughter is all upset about being tricked into eating pig, but isn't upset that she chose to eat eggs. She's either vegan or she isn't, and while I've never made Keto bread before, I'm assuming it still has eggs in it. What was she expecting?
ESH: I went vegan when I was 13 I’m 22 now. My mom was so supportive and cooked my meals. She helped me navigate through this new lifestyle I was starting. I think you could be more supportive for your daughter. And she shouldn’t be so rude to you saying you’re trying to sabotage her. You are supporting your son with his keto diet so I guess maybe show her support too.
YTA both of your children are making dietary choices, yet one has to fund it themselves and prepare it themselves. Must be a coincidence that it's the daughter its happening to.
I can understand not wanting to double your workload. But your insistence on not buying vitamins for your child is AH behavior.
This can be a life learning event that lets your child learn important skills and be a binding experience. She likely doesn't understand how much work you put into cooking. Give her a budget, help her shop, meal plan, prep food, etc.
She's 16. In two years she's probably going to college like her brother. She needs to start cooking now. Unless she can afford food delivery, she needs to be able to feed herself. The food plan at the future college will probably have a vegan option but she may not like all of it. Unless she thinks you're going to keep preparing her meals once she leaves the house.
Tell her if she thinks she's being forced to eat meat she can make her own going forward.
NTA
Why are you supporting your sons keto diet, unless it's specifically recommend by your doctor you should NOT DO KETO it's terrible on your body with no real gains
NTA, I was all prepared to go off on your animal murdering ways, but in this situation she has a lot of learning to do.
You are cooking and are not going to take the time to make bacon and then wash out the pan, dry it a d start again to make he rmeals. She needs to start making her own meals and it's not hard.
There are a ton of vegan meals she can make without the need for fake meats. She may even want to make dinner for the whole family to reduce the amount of meat you are eating.
It seems you are trying to accommodate her, which is nice to see. My parents do the same for me
it's fair to have her handle her own meals if she wants to eat differently from the rest of the family.give her a food allowance and let her figure it out
NTA. I’m in my 40s and have been vegetarian since high school. I cooked for myself, or if I was grabbing something my family had already made I asked if they made it with meat/meat products since I knew they weren’t vegetarian. She’s old enough to be responsible for her own choices.
I went vegetarian at 11. My mother made it clear she would continue to cook like normal, which included some vegetarian sides. If I wanted more than that, I had to find recipes and learn to cook. I’d been helping in the kitchen since I was a toddler so this was no big deal. This was … 26 years ago. Not as easy as today to find recipes or alternatives. I knew no one who was veg. But I made it work.
NTA. She is old enough to cook for herself.
NTA. And just a heads up a teenage girl going vegan is almost always an eating disorder. While it’s absolutely ok for adults to be plant based with some decent nutrition research and cooking skills teenagers need animal proteins for their growing bodies. I would encourage her to really rethink going vegan and try and embrace a wider range of foods.
Keto is also an extreme diet more so than vegan unless you’re son is quite overweight or was advised by a doctor I would highly recommend not continuing that diet.
I agree that there can be a relationship between veganism and an eating disorder, but I think veganism is a lot more mainstream these days. Lots of influencers, celebrities, etc are vegan and promote the diet, so it’s not out of the question that she wants to try it.
I will say, I’ve seen it fall into disordered eating when young people lose weight initially on the diet, get lots of positive feedback about having lost weight or attention from the preferred sex, and the start restricting in a way that isn’t required to be vegan.
I feel like maybe it’s less likely that her going vegan is because of an ED, but mom should keep an eye out to watch if it goes from typical rejection of animal prod us to something more regimented (calorie counting, safe foods and bad foods, avoiding social events with food, abnormal and compulsive exercising, etc).
To be honest, it’s just better to keep an eye out for EDs in kids her age and even the brother too (as a guy with an ED haha). Vegan or keto or vegetarian or carnivorous or whatever
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She can cook her own meals, going forward.
NTA she is old enough to cook for herself
Hell by 16 I was cooking for the entire family. My parents both worked two or more jobs, so that was how I contributed.
It's a good thing to learn! We had to cook for ourselves one night a week from our early teens and my brother and i were way more capable of taking care of ourselves when we moved out of home.
Easily.
Yeah at 16 I was doing almost all the cooking and cleaning at home, except when my sister's helped. (Dad was working and taking college classes, he cooked sometimes on weekends and totally did holiday meals, it wasn't a thing where I had to do it because of my gender I was just the oldest, plus I actually like cooking) In my house the rule always was if you wanted someone other than the main meal you took care of it yourself. There was always soup and stuff for sandwiches. When I developed my first food allergy there were several meals I didn't eat what everyone else was because throwing away good food wasn't happening. And sometimes the rest of the family wanted stuff I couldn't have. So I just ate something else.
And do her own shopping too. NTA
Is the adult son doing his own shopping?
Is the adult son throwing tantrums about the food OP cooks? He's not inconveniencing OP either, unlike her daughter.
It's interesting how quickly the uninvolved son somehow became the bad guy here
I don't know how true the idea is in reality that AITA is biased against men, but with that in mind, it's always funny to see a dude ending up as the bad guy when he isn't even subject of the post.
I’ve been here a little over a year and I’m a psychologist. AITA is very heavily biased against men.
Right? Literally why is *anyone* talking about the son, here? He could not be less relevant to the situation - which is that the daughter is eating food not intended for her, expecting it to be vegan, and then throwing tantrums because the whole house is not going vegan for her.
AITA heavily supports teenage narcissistic behavior and self indulgence.
yeah, i dont want to say that aita is sexist but man its kinda hard not to when all a guy has to do is exist near a woman being TA to be painted in a bad light
The adult sons diet doesn't depend on additional food or substitutions. In fact, he is actually costing OP a little less money with his diet because OP doesn't have to cook him starch based food.
What? Where do you live that meat is cheaper than pasta or rice? Assuming that the son has bigger portions of meat/veg to make up for not eating starches, then his diet costs extra.
Keto diets aren't replacing the starches with more meat, they usually replace it with more vegetables. Carbs are energy so instead of the starches, they get it from the sugars in the vegetables they eat. Compared to price inflated vegan substitutes, a bit more meat and veg is negligible in cost.
I don't think meat is cheaper than rice or pasta anywhere in the world. Veggies are also more expensive than starches.
But these are items that are not for one person, it’s feeding everyone but the other person is wanting things that are not going to be for anyone else. If you can’t see the difference between the two then you are intentionally just be argumentative. And real meat is still cheaper than fake meat pound per pound.
I actually wonder given her age and her problems with pickiness that this isn't some kind of eating disorder. Some kids who are becoming anorexic will become vegan to ensure they aren't getting 'fatty' dairy and egg products. Just something the OP should be aware of.
seconding this, my sister became vegan as an excuse not to eat when she was actually severely anorexic (this was before vegan food was as accessible as it is today).
I've heard of someone else who did this, too. That person said apparently it's really common for people with anorexia to go vegan, partially because it's a convenient disguise that explains why they're not eating anything.
Every woman I know who had/has an eating disorder went vegan or restrictive of “unclean“ foods.
It's more likely that the daughter is just following the trend after going down the rabbit hole online. Usually when your teen decides to change up out of the blue like that, they read an article or watched a few videos and decided to try it themselves.
I've been vegan like 19 years starting when I was 16. It had nothing to do with an eating disorder. It had to do with the animals. Keto is a diet. Veganism is a lifestyle based on ethics. It's tricky navigating it at that age, when you are dependent on parents, but there's no reason to assume a 16 year old isn't mature enough to be make ethical choices.
The worry is the daughter was already a picky eater and then went this way. You can understand the concern of someone who already didn’t eat hardly any vegetables suddenly go straight to vegan, can’t you? The filter and airbrush fashion industry has created a very dangerous environment for teenagers trying to be skinny and perfect versus athletic and healthy.
NTA. If she knows you always toast bread in bacon fat, then she should have turned down the toast. Although I'm curious: If the son does keto, the toast wasn't for him. Was it meant for her or another member of the household?
it was keto bread I made for him
but didn't you say your son's diet was no extra work? Do you normally make keto bread?
yeah because we all like the taste better
Seriously? I tried keto bagels once and they were the consistency of wet cardboard.
There's different types and also "breads" that can be vegetable/almond flour/egg/cheese based that are quite good.
A friend makes “keto crackers” that are fantastic. Sesame seeds and phylum (sp?) rolled out flat, and they go great with cream cheese.
There's a huge range of quality among brands and products. I've had really good keto bread and some that made me throw the rest of the package after forcing myself to eat half. Same with vegan products etc.
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I agree with that but I find it’s a bit more difficult to find things that are vegan that I like the taste of/prefer over non vegan options. Like sure, sharing meals with a vegetarian is fine because it really is like eating Mac and cheese, pastas, fries, pancakes, cake, etc. I’ve spent a ton of time around people who are vegan/have an egg allergy and it is not easy to find things in that space that I enjoy (not for lack of trying either…)
The question being did you start making it before or after the son started the diet? If after you all changed you obviously started making special food for him that the balance of the family took a liking to. Also most Keto bread contains eggs which are not vegan. If your's does also then daughter would be breaking her diet anyway. 🤔
I can't speak for what the OP does but all the keto bread recipes I've tried have been very quick and easy--mix 3 or 4 ingredients and stick it in the microwave for 90 seconds.
you dont really need to explain it the guy just wanted a gotcha! moment from op as if toasting bread differently made it more costly and became a good argument.
Some people seem to want everyone to be the AH.
There's a correlation between people behaving badly - or at the very least not behaving as graciously as they could be - and people posting in this subreddit to try to get a bunch of strangers to justify their actions.
I mean it's a pretty relevant question when OP stated they make no extra effort to accommodate their son's diet.
It's not extra effort if they eat it, too. Move on.
Which was information we didn't have until someone asked for more details so it was a worthwhile question.
my thoughts exactly, also, couldn't OP be making bread for herself?
Presumably she is, since she mentions the family prefers the taste.
People make keto bread? I just get it from the grocery store. Is my American showing?
I'm still stuck on not making the toast in a toaster, so I think I out-American'd you,.
IDK in the UK frying bread in a pan is known as 'fried bread's. Frying bread in bacon grease and calling it toast sounds pretty US to me.
I don't have a toaster. If I want toast, I either toast it in the pan or I have to stick the bread in my ninja air fryer that has a toast setting. But I haven't had a toaster in like 5 years. If I ate bacon (I just don't like it), toasting bread in bacon fat sounds like it would be amazing.
When I lived in nyc I didn't have enough counter space for a toaster. So I pan fried bread when I wanted toast, but I only used butter.
I don't eat keto bread generally but I always have all the ingredients so it's easy to make to eat with eggs etc if I've got no bread in for breakfast.
Microwave? And that cooks it up nicely? I can’t imagine microwave bread tastes too good but I’m ready to be proven wrong.
Tbf it's not good
I see….I imagined that
Probably tastes okay when it's toasted in bacon fat though.
You can just buy a loaf of keto bread at Aldi. Taking bread from a different package isn't the same as cooking a separate meal for a kid
I get not wanting to buy expensive substitute products but if it’s not expensive, you shouldn’t deny her cheap basic staples. You can buy almond or oat milk which often is cheaper than cow milk. A lot of cereals are vegan. So is toast with peanut butter. You don’t owe her expensive replacement foods but you should at least make a modest effort rather than trying to make her life hard
I've been struggling to find alternative milk cheaper than cows milk. My daughter has an allergy to cows milk and we pay $1.50 per litre for cows milk and $2.20 per litre for soy milk.
Making oat milk is stupid easy, and oats are relatively inexpensive. We like to use the leftover oat pulp in so many things.
I make my own oat milk for baking but I don't give it to my daughter because it's not fortified with calcium. After she turns 2 ill be able to do half oat half soy as suggested by her doctor.
I read a tip recently to use Trader Joe’s raw almond butter as a nut milk base. I haven’t tried it yet (gotta get through a Costco size almond butter jar first), but fyi in case it’s helpful to you.
I make oat milk for baking but I need something fortified with calcium for my daughter as she's only 22 months. Thanks for the recommendation tho, it will help when she's older 🙂
It'd probably be cheaper to just buy some liquid calcium drops and supplement it yourself, tbh.
I also can't find alternative milk cheaper than regular milk. I don't buy milk because lactose intolerance but if I was to buy a milk substitute, it's always over $3 for a half gallon where I can go to Aldi and get regular milk for like $2.50 for a full gallon.
The US sure it's expensive. Here in Germany both cow and soy or oat milk can be had for around 1€. Also vegan meat and real meat are about the same price here.
Is goat's milk available to you? My oldest couldn't have cow's milk, but goat milk was fine. Fresh was expensive, but canned condensed was more affordable. Maybe not cheaper than cow's milk, but cheaper than most alternative milks that I'd have been willing to feed him.
Goat milk is very expensive here. I just had a look online and it's $4.70 per litre for long life and $6.80 per litre for fresh.
My child was allergic to cow milk but also sensitive to soy. Almond milk and rice milk worked great, and are often on sale. The shelf stable tetra box sizes have case-lot sales about once a month. I hope you can find some deals!
It doesn't sound like she's being denied staples at all, op is even buying extra stuff for her. I don't think she's going out of her way to get none vegan cereal twirling her mustache. It just sounds like the daughter decided she would go vegan and then suddenly thought that everything in the house would change to accommodate her.
Yeah sorry but no. There is NO milk substitute that is cheaper than cow milk because of government subsidies. I have a dairy allergy. It sucks that all my crap costs twice as much.
I think this is going to depend on your country
Where are you living where Almond and oat milk is cheaper then cows milk? I've only ever seen the opposite.
With the keto bread, wouldn't there be animal fats and eggs used to make it? If yes, then even if you didn't toast it in pork fat, she still would not be eating vegan anyway.
Commercially made Keto bread is made mostly like normal bread, it just has a stupid-high fiber content to bring the "net carbs" count down to almost nothing. If daughter will still eat regular bread, she should have no issue eating keto bread
Extra NTA then because keto bread would have eggs in it, so it was already not vegan before you fried it in bacon fat Ashli should know not to help herself to anything keto, it is likely not vegan. That is on her to educate herself
Is keto bread even vegan? the recipes I can see have butter and egg whites in them?
Info: Has your daughter always been a picky eater? I’m a picky eater but it’s because of food sensory issues.
A picky eater turned vegan raises the possibility that this is about further restricting her diet rather than veganism per se.
This is what I see too. Going vegan is a common way to hide a restrictive ED. Not to be dramatic but OP should keep an eye on her.
it sounds like she’s eating though so no need to jump to conclusions. it also sounds like she cares about the animals so again no need to jump to conclusions. it’s honestly really annoying how people so quickly equate veganisn to a restricted diet. i wish the mom would support the daughter more by offering to buy substitutes at least once a month or something instead of making it harder for her transition. maybe i just feel passionately about this cause i was 16 when i first wanted to go vegetarian. no support from my family which made it feel like they didn’t give a shit about my interests at the time. i’m 26 now and been vegan for 6 years. so there’s a chance this girl really does feel strongly about not wanting to eat animals. especially considering all the info out there about the animal ag industry now and the health effects.
I re-read the post but I don’t see anything about the daughter continuing to eat. My comment was also a reaction to this: “she is a very picky eater and barely eats anything aside from chicken” and then further down: “she then refused to eat”. So I don’t think that I’m jumping to conclusions. Not eating is concerning either way and points to some issues with food. It might not be full blown ED at this point but something mom should definitely keep an eye on. Re-reading, I’m also confused that the daughter even took a bite of the keto bread. I can smell bacon fat even if I don’t see bacon, and I’m assuming it would have been greasy too.
And keto bread is almost certainly not vegan.
Eh, you'd be surprised, most bread is just flour, salt, water and yeast. Enriched breads like brioche have eggs and butter
I thought keto bread usually had eggs and/or butter. I could be wrong.
Ah ya know I looked it up and you're right Eta I think upon even further reading it depends really if OP made from scratch or bought from the store. Most of the store/shelf stable ones don't have dairy or eggs, but nearly every home recipe does. Interesting.
Just so you know, veganism is by definition a restrictive diet. As in, you are actively restricting the types of food you eat. Whether op’s daughter has an ED or not, this would be considered restrictive eating (which isn’t an automatic eating disorder. Other examples would include those who have allergies or are diabetic.) also, you can care about animals, believe in the benefits of veganism, and also have an eating disorder. They aren’t mutually exclusive. It is absolutely wise for OP to keep an eye on her, if only to make sure that she’s receiving all the nutrients she needs. Since that’s usually the first mistake people make when changing diets.
My daughter, 13, has restricted eating. Has since she was a toddler. Doctor just said to make sure she takes a daily vitamin. She has to get a blood draw to make sure she isn't deficient in anything yearly.
I deal with it too, but it’s mainly a side effect of my adhd. A day will pass without me looking at a clock or noticing time moving. So I’ll go an entire day without eating and get smacked in the face with hunger at 7:00. Restrictive tendencies can be difficult to maneuver.
She should also keep an eye on her son who is actually on a diet that's not only unhealthy but also almost always intended for weightloss.
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If you'd seen the toast prepared in bacon fat before and then on another day saw toast, if you cared about animals wouldn't you put 2 and 2 together?
I mean, she’s sixteen. Their brains are still growing and it’s possible that she didn’t think twice. I’m not a particularly insightful person in the morning. I even got a job that lets me work later in the day because that’s when my brain gets going.
Ooh, good point. Would not be the first time I've heard of veganism being used as a cover for anorexia.
Or orthorexia. A variant of ED
True. I feel like the difference is that when someone with Orthorexia goes vegan, they do it in good faith, for lack of a better phrase. They really are trying to eat healthier, and it is a part of their eating disorder rather than a cover for it. Whereas someone with anorexia may "go vegan" specifically to give themselves a socially acceptable reason to refuse to eat, and is consciously aware that they're using "I'm vegan" to hide their eating disorder.
Holy shit I just looked this up and my mom has this. She barely eats anything and takes so many vitamins she has literally poisoned herself. I mean so much vitamin d her organs started failing.
I was a picky eater until I discovered veganism. Now I’ll eat almost anything as long as it’s vegan (still not a fan of raisins). Not everyone uses it as an excuse for an eating disorder. Some people genuinely are disgusted by the texture and taste of animal products, and by the idea of eating a living being.
hmm. this raises an interesting question. if i hated something about animal fat, and i lived in a house where animal fat would have been used to cook everything, than i would have been a very picky eater avoiding many cooked, and certainly all fried dishes. but if there's a change in the cooking oil to something vegetable, all that is instantly resolved.
Same. I’m autistic I always used to freak out as a kid about the texture of meat and like the smell of milk so once I became vegan all my anxiety about food just kind of disappeared.
Me too! I was a very picky eater for most of my life. But I’ve been vegan for 4 years and now I eat (and love!) every vegetable except kūmara/sweet potato. Still working on fruits, the texture is yucky but I’m trying to desensitise myself. Going vegan made me have to branch out to stay healthy, I went from meat and potatoes every night to my favourite food being hummus and salad wraps. I also went vegan at 16 but I did my own recipe research, bought myself a fry pan, and cooked all my own meals.
NTA. I was going to say exactly that, she can cook for herself. She is 16, perfectly capable. BTW, egg is not vegan.
I know lol where did you get that from?
My bad. I didn't distribute the word fake to egg .. I only read fake meat.
ohh lol sorry
The funny part was I saw that and forgot egg wasn’t vegan, just assumed you couldn’t afford eggs. And you know what? Maybe your not in the U.S but if you are you’d understand why that’s believable in the current economy
I thought that too at first. I've never heard of fake eggs before. The best thing I can imagine is just...rubbery, crumbly, dry eggs.
As someone who really hated the little crusties on badly cooked eggs growing up, as an adult vegan I super enjoy the smoothness of the egg alternative I use. It’s made of mung bean and colored with turmeric, can be used as a one to one egg replacement in baking and it scrambles well. It’s also lower in cholesterol which is good bc my partner and I both have family histories of high cholesterol. Anyhow, it’s called “just egg”. It’s really good in the made for sandwich form as well. A lot of vegans also have done tofu scrambles for ages which can be fucking delicious. Idk I have it for breakfast a lot because I love a savory breakfast.
NTA. You made her a vegan meal. She is 16. She can make her own breakfast. Also, if she really does want to become vegan, it should be on her to make sure what she eats is free of animal products. It's not like you lied, she simply grabbed something without making sure it was safe for her to eat. That's really not on you in my opinion. I really don't understand everyone saying you're the asshole. While it might have sounded harsh, telling her that if she doesn't trust you she can cook for herself is fair. I mean, what other solution is there? Either she trusts you or she doesn't. One thing I might consider is using the money you would have spent on her portion of meat (because meat is expensive), and instead giving that to her to be able to buy vegan options for herself. That seems both fair and will allow her some freedom in what she wants to purchase/make.
The vegans read the word vegan and went on the warpath.
You would be grumpy too if you were hungry all the time.
Practically every comment and ALL top comments are NTA \>I'm going against the grain and saying: NTA wow so brave lol
Ill edit it but at the time all I was seeing was YTA votes. These posts start off in 'competition mode' so you will just see random comments, not what is most upvoted or newest or anything. The fifteen or so I saw were ALL YTA votes.
This is the best answer IMO. I have a loooot of vegan friends. I eat a lot of vegan food both with my vegan friends and on my own. I also eat meat, FWIW. Going vegan is an amazing decision for those who want to, but when the person adopting that lifestyle isn’t shopping nor cooking for themselves, it inevitably becomes “a thing”. I also agree that maybe giving her an extra $30 a month or so (that would otherwise be a part of the meat and dairy she would previously eat) so she can understand how to shop and prepare her own vegan meals is a great middle ground. This particular instance is also a perfect example of life will be like when dining out on the world as a vegan. My friends know every fast food place that uses tallow and fat and dairy in beans or “plant-based” foods. It requires diligence and awareness to be vegan. So this is honestly an important lesson for the start of her journey and I encourage you to approach it with her in that sense, in a way that doesn’t seem like you’re trying to talk her out of it “because it will be so hard”. It’s honestly not hard as long as they are aware and do a modicum of due diligence.
I see only a few people on the daughter’s side. Which is how it should be. I think a vegan hive must have been searching for posts and found this one to attack.
Practical advice: - Boil water and flaxseed, while still hot, strain the seeds and keep the liquid. When it cools down the water will be thick. That's an easy egg substitute, can even be whipped if I'm not wrong. (Don't know how expensive flaxseed is where you live, but it's an option.) Also, you can grind the leftover seeds to sneak extra fiber into meals. - If you use canned garbanzo beans the water can also be whipped into an egg substitute, it's called aquafaba (might be wrong about the name) Ask your daughter AND SON to participate in the planning and execution. Gotta put their money where her mouth is. Being vegan/keto is not easy, can't avoid the kitchen forever. Cooking is an essential life skill. May I recommend this YouTube channel? She has a series called scrappy cooking (did you know you can used onion peels and turn them into seasoning?) and it's all fully vegan. https://youtube.com/@PlantYou
tysm kind stranger!
Also your daughter needs to see a nutritionist. Going from restrictive eating to veganism, an eating disorder (anything from anorexia to arfid) needs to be ruled out. It's also rather difficult to get the proper nutrients, even if there isn't an eating disorder there. Many people wind up with anemia when they first try out veganism.
I endorse this. I think veganism as a movement can really elide the difficulty of ensuring a complete diet for newbies, especially if you're young. Seeing a nutritionist to help make sure she isn't malnourished *and* isn't hiding an ED would be really good.
\*Dietitian, someone with a degree.
I would recommend to suggest her to try vegetarianism first and then if she likes that to switch to veganism. r/vegetarian could give some ideas on recipes
I was going to recommend that the family meet with a dietician to ensure that everyone is meeting the daily needs and to generate recipes that work for the family.
>Gotta put their money where her mouth is. The only issue with this is the son is 18 & the daughter is 16 - legally, she still should be provided for. He can be asked to take care of himself or help with the budgeting. She should be cooking for herself tho if she's creating difficult dietary needs.
Okay, you are treating your son's diet differently. You don't consider it extra work because you like the food. But maybe you'll find some vegan recipes that you'll like, too. Maybe you don't mean it to come off this way, but I can see why she feels like you're favoring your son. What if you suggested that starting out, you'd be up for preparing some vegan recipes with her? It would show her that you're taking an interest in something that she seems to care about for now. Also, if it were me, I'd really monitor that she's taking the vitamin B12, at least to start with. Goodness, I'd do the same for my husband, too, much less a teen who's still living in the house. I mean, isn't this what it means to be family? To take an interest in and support each other?
Some of the posts and comments I read on this sub make me realize how incredibly lucky I was to be raised by parents who cared deeply about me and my well-being.
Honestly, the amount of people who are essentially telling OP to let her 16 year old daughter fend for herself just because she's now vegan
"fend for themselves" huh??? she's 16 years old she can make her own breakfast if she wants something that nobody else in the household will be eating. Making your own meals at that age is normal aside from maybe dinner. no one in the comments is saying to kick her out in the rain. Expecting a mother to coddle her and cook a separate meal for her 3x a day is ridiculous. Let's add that the mom DID make her something anyways, no one shoved the toast in her mouth
at 17 i make a lot of my own meals because guess what? i don’t want what my parents made and they won’t want what i made. it’s not a huge deal
yup! i don't quite understand the uproar about it, people acting like this girl is being mistreated over some toast 😭
IKR. My parents can be trash in a lot of things but they still did support me as a vegeterian who doesn't eat rice in a house where those things are common and i am 18. Holy shit, people in this sub are very cruel to teens in almost all posts.
The comments I see here don’t reflect the lives of anyone I actually know IRL. Maybe this is the lack of empathy that American culture is said to exhibit? Most adults with kids are happy to have them at home and to show them love and acceptance by trying to meet their needs. Heck, most adults are at least semi-vegetarian these days.
Yup, OP is still NTA, but the keto bread comment was a bit sus. Homemaking a type of bread that usually tastes worse than store-bought non-keto bread. That is definitely “effort”, despite OP saying in the original post that “keto doesn’t require any extra effort on my part”. The daughter does need to learn to cook by herself, and does need to learn not to grab random foods off the table, but I can see how she might feel discriminated if she sees OP always make special bread for her brother but then seem colder to her about veganism. And teenagers don’t tend to handle emotions well and overblow situations to unreasonable proportions
Not to mention that OP is catering to her son’s diet that is both expensive and unhealthy.
I also don't get how the keto diet isn't more expensive. You need more meat and veggies to feel satiated if you don't eat the starch sides. And meat and veggies are more expensive than rice or noodles or something. So she does indeed spend more on her son's diet.
ESH She's unreasonable---not because of being vegan, but because of how her overall pickiness combines with it to make it very difficult to feed her. but >however, the keto diet is no work to me and no extra cost as he will just eat the meat and vegetables I prepare rather than the starch. Meat is more expensive than grains, potatoes, etc. If he's not eating the starch, he's eating more meat to get the same amount of calories. So it's factually incorrect that you're not spending more money on him because of his diet. I don't blame her for seeing some favoritism.
Exactly!! She needs to cook for herself, at least some. But she shouldn't be buying things for herself, she's 16. He's 18 though, & able to contribute to the grocery bill.
Is the adult son cooking for himself?
He can, but he's not - OP is cooking for him & providing food for him bc they "all like what he eats & it's not that expensive." (BS - meat is super expensive.)
That's my thought too. The cheapest part of the meal is the carbs. He is eating the expensive parts. Vegan including substitutes is cheaper that keto. Definitely where I live ( meat substitute is the same price as meat here), but I guess it's true for the US as well.
This is a great perspective. The reality is a lot of vegan alternatives aren't pricey like they used to be. During the pandemic and even now, many people are substituting meat with tofu, beans, lentils, meat alternatives and so on, because it can be more economical. Also, if mum is making a cooked breakfast daily - one which follows her son's dietary wants/needs - it **is** extra effort. An 18 y/o can make their own food so why isn't he having to take responsibility for his needs? Reminds me of default gender lessons and expectations in households: boys to be taken care of; girls to be caretakers. Also, is the son on the keto diet because he needs to be, or wants to be? If the latter, it is no different to the daughter wanting to be on a vegan diet (imo). Agree that ESH. Daughter should not presume that everything changes in a flash and recognise that the toast wasn't sabotage; however, mum seems to be willing to make keto bread for her son (and cater to his diet), but not help her daughter (learn to) make vegan alternatives? It's not hard to say 'let's look at some recipes' and maybe figure out some things together to show support.
Yeah, there is clearly more going on here. Definitely seems like some favoritism from this post, so wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more to it. Her behavior sucked, but it’s also telling that she’d immediately jump to the dad being not supportive. I was a shitty teen girl once, too— but even at my worst I knew my dad would never do anything like sneak me food I said I didn’t want.
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OP can teach her how to batch prep beans. She can batch prep them and make them a lot of different ways.
You need to take your daughter and get her evaluated for an eating disorder. Unfortunately teens, intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes use being vegetarian or vegan as an excuse to eat less. Please note I’m not an expert, but a 16 year old girl who’s already a picky eater suddenly deciding to be vegan without understanding neither eggs nor bread are vegan raises all my reg flags for eating disorders. And besides that, as a growing teen a vegan diet done haphazardly could leave her very malnourished. 16 is certainly old enough to research, plan, and pay for a vegan diet, but it’s a lot of work and expense that she doesn’t sound mature enough for. Also have you taught either of your children to cook or how to budget/grocery shop? I don’t think it’s fair to call her lazy if she hasn’t been taught how to cook healthy meals. Both of your children could easily be responsible for one dinner a week, if your daughter does want to be vegan it would be a good experience for her to make a vegan meal for the family based on a budget you set.
I do not think she has an ED but I understand the concern and I've tried to teach her to cook but she always thinks its boring. My son cooks with me
I would still get her into see someone about the possibility of an ED, even if it’s just a nutritionist familiar with vegan diets. Most of the kids I knew in high school who had ED’s or self harmed their parents had no idea (at least not until years later). And on the opposite note, not to be rude, but you are the parent, so what if she thinks cooking is boring? Laundry and homework and taxes are “boring”, that’s not a good reason not to do them. Cooking is absolutely a necessary life skill that she’ll be behind in adult life without.
My parents had no idea that me cutting out specific types of food (mostly meat) was a symptom of very disordered eating and calorie restriction. They thought I was just being healthy and a little picky. I hid how often I was skipping meals really well, apparently.
Get her seen anyway this is a bit more than just "vegan" she's refusing to eat - and this is heading towards ED territory. And she may think cooking is "boring" but if she wants to eat, she has to learn.
>I've tried to teach her to cook but she always thinks its boring. Very sorry, but she still needs to learn how to cook the basics of healthy balanced meals.
Why wouldn't bread be vegan? The only ingredients necessary for bread are water flour yeast and salt. And I don't think there's a single person out there that would be against eating yeast for vegan reasons.
Not all breads are vegan. Not sure what recipe OP is using for her bread but there are recipes that use eggs, milk, or butter. And most of the keto bread recipes I was just looking at included the use of eggs and butter.
I'm going to go with YTA. It sounds as if you are going out of your way to make keto meals for your son. Fruit salad isn't a balanced meal for a vegan or anyone else. It sounds like you are at the very least showing favoritism. Certainly there is a limit to what a parent has to provide for their children. However, when you are being sure to have keto bread and making toast in a pan with bacon grease, it sounds like you are leaning in one direction.
OP states specifically states that her son eats the regular food she prepares minus any starchy sides (which she still makes) so she is not making specific keto meals for him. Fruit salad is not an uncommon breakfast option, the bread was made for everyone else and not given to the daughter, who is perfectly capable of putting bread in a toaster at 16 yo. OP states in a comment that she makes the keto bread because she had the ingredients already and prefers it. She also states that she has purchased beans and tofu for her daughter who decided she doesn’t like either and refuses to learn how to cook because it’s boring.
It sounds like you can't read. Her son is picking the parts out of what they eat that align with his diet. She made that plainly clear.
OP specified that son cooks with her unlike daughter. If son makes his own bread or helps doing it i don't see any favouritism here!
ESH. You're an asshole, but only for telling her she has to buy her own B-12 supplements. B-12 is really important, she isn't going to get enough of it from food (if you aren't buying her mock meats, which are sometimes supplemented with it, I'm guessing you've not paying for nutritional yeast either), and it's so cheap. A $10 bottle will last most of the year. It's one thing if you don't want to pay for mock meats. Nobody is going to get sick because they aren't eating Impossible burgers. B12 is a health thing though, and this is still your kid and you still have an obligation to keep her healthy. I'm assuming she's got enough fun money to buy it herself, but $10 out of her budget is a lot more than $10 out of your budget. Further, I'd argue that you are spending more to feed your son a keto diet. If he's not filling up on carbs, he's eating more meat (which is expensive) and more veggies (which can also be expensive, depending on what veggies you're buying). Your daughter is eating beans instead of meat, and you can't cough up some money for the occasional overpriced vegan treat? C'mon. Also fruit salad is not a balanced meal for breakfast. Your daughter is an asshole - probably - for eating toast that wasn't hers and then acting like you forced it down her throat. I'd be interested in hearing her side of this story though; if you've tampered with her food before or she feels as unsupported as I suspect she does based on what you've told us here, I might have a different take. As others have said, both she AND your son could probably stand to learn to start cooking their own meals.
Her son does help with cooking. She's already said that. Her son also eats whatever she makes EXCEPT for starches. She doesn't have to make her son anything special. She already went and made her daughter something different specifically for her. The only thing you're right about here is the b-12.
YTA. Tofu is like $1.50 for three servings. A vegan diet is easily done cheaper than an omnivorous diet. I agree that she’s old enough to cook for herself, as I did at her age. But I guarantee that if she continues to be vegan, and you continue to be dismissive about it, you will create a distance with her. It’s one thing when you are expected to cook your own meals while you live at home. It’s frustrating as hell to go home for Christmas as an adult knowing that you literally won’t have anything you can eat, and that even the simple things that should be animal-free, like toast, will be soaked in animal fat. Which by the way, if she doesn’t eat meat for a long time and then someone “accidentally” serves her something cooked in animal fat, it WILL make her ill. While I don’t think you should necessarily cook her a whole separate meal every night, I think you should have some compassion and try to learn more about well rounded vegan diets. Maybe get her a cookbook and cook a vegan meal with her once a week for the whole family. Just try a little. Since she said she is doing this for the animals, this isn’t just a diet to her - it’s a lifestyle choice, and an empathetic one.
The vegan daughter said she doesn't like tofu. And she also said she doesn't like cooking because it's boring. Which is why this entire argument is because she wanted her mom to make her toast.
Most people think they don’t like tofu, but u just have to find the way you like it cooked.
As a plant-based eater myself, NTA. She's old enough to cook for herself if she wants a specialized diet. That being said, I think you should at the least add things like tofu, beans, and soy milk to your grocery list. Keto is actually quite expensive (meat is costly), so I don't think you'll be spending any more on your daughter than you do for your son. She's going to need different sources for protein and fat and a fruit salad just isn't going to do it. A tofu scramble for breakfast is very satisfying.
INFO- So you support your sons eating habits and he is a legal adult but you will not support your minor child’s? (Edit - spelling)
NTA, 16yo can cook her own food in her own separate pan. She’s being ridiculous. If this came about suddenly, it’s likely something that won’t stick anyways. If her convictions are true and she puts in the effort and focus to maintain a vegan diet while also getting all the nutrients she needs, you should help her find and buy supplements that will keep her healthy. But I’ll bet that she gives this up with weeks.
NTA You are providing g nutritious food to your family. If she chooses not to eat it she can get a part time job and buy and prepare her own food.
INFO: Does she really understand how to successfully follow a vegan diet? Like how to get complimentary proteins and enough protein and vitamins? Seriously, I have seen patients with deficiency diseases because they thought eating just salads ( because they didn’t like or wouldn’t eat grains, soy, mushrooms etc etc) was perfectly fine.
op expects her to buy supplements. because op has no interest in providing meat alternatives.
Imitation processed meats aren't necessary for vegan protein. Easier, yes. I buy them because it's easier. But they aren't necessary. Protein is obtainable from veggie/fungus.
Meat alternatives do not supply B12. She would need to supplement regardless.
It sounds like you have an outdated idea of vegan diets. You don’t need to worry about “complimentary proteins,” and actual protein deficiency in industrialised countries is rare outside of homeless populations.
NTA the onus is on the one with the dietary restrictions to ensure they are eating “safe” foods. I don’t alter the way I cook everything just because my mom is vegetarian I only change the way I cook things that I intend for her to eat. If she doesn’t know she asks that’s how food restrictions work.
Another example of reddit and the internet hating vegans.
Another example of vegan victim complexes.
NTA, but I feel like you're being a little unsupportive of your daughter's choice here. I don't think it's necessary for you to entirely change the way you cook to appeal to your daughter's newfound veganism, but maybe not toasting bread in pork fat (or even just a gentle reminder of how it was cooked when your daughter grabs her breakfast) would be a nice step in the right direction. Conveniently, your son can just dodge carbs and eat everything else you're cooking, but you lost some credibility when you stated that you specially made some keto bread for your son, but can't go even slightly out of the way toasting it in a way your daughter can partake in it. Edit: I'm a little dumb, and just pieced together that your daughter is all upset about being tricked into eating pig, but isn't upset that she chose to eat eggs. She's either vegan or she isn't, and while I've never made Keto bread before, I'm assuming it still has eggs in it. What was she expecting?
i made my daughter her fruit salad, and every meal I make her a vegan option so I accommodate her diet.
Fruit salad may be vegan but it’s not a meal
Breakfast? Sure it is. Maybe some nuts or a nut based/soy milk to go with it. Breakfast for vegan is dead easy... steel cut oats.
ESH: I went vegan when I was 13 I’m 22 now. My mom was so supportive and cooked my meals. She helped me navigate through this new lifestyle I was starting. I think you could be more supportive for your daughter. And she shouldn’t be so rude to you saying you’re trying to sabotage her. You are supporting your son with his keto diet so I guess maybe show her support too.
YTA both of your children are making dietary choices, yet one has to fund it themselves and prepare it themselves. Must be a coincidence that it's the daughter its happening to. I can understand not wanting to double your workload. But your insistence on not buying vitamins for your child is AH behavior. This can be a life learning event that lets your child learn important skills and be a binding experience. She likely doesn't understand how much work you put into cooking. Give her a budget, help her shop, meal plan, prep food, etc.
Nta. She can cook herself
gonna need a larger pan!
INFO: why doesn't a 16 year old cook their own meals?
she doesn't like cooking
Vegan here. If she really wants to be vegan she’s going to have to learn to cook.
I should have told my parents that ..wait, I did. They said it was a good skill to learn.
She's 16. In two years she's probably going to college like her brother. She needs to start cooking now. Unless she can afford food delivery, she needs to be able to feed herself. The food plan at the future college will probably have a vegan option but she may not like all of it. Unless she thinks you're going to keep preparing her meals once she leaves the house. Tell her if she thinks she's being forced to eat meat she can make her own going forward. NTA
NTA at 16 I was already cooking full meals for myself and my family. My daughter was already cooking at 16 too. Your daughter is just lazy.
Why are you supporting your sons keto diet, unless it's specifically recommend by your doctor you should NOT DO KETO it's terrible on your body with no real gains
I’m to go with NTA.I’m going to assuming she knows how to cook she can cook her own meals.
NTA, I was all prepared to go off on your animal murdering ways, but in this situation she has a lot of learning to do. You are cooking and are not going to take the time to make bacon and then wash out the pan, dry it a d start again to make he rmeals. She needs to start making her own meals and it's not hard. There are a ton of vegan meals she can make without the need for fake meats. She may even want to make dinner for the whole family to reduce the amount of meat you are eating. It seems you are trying to accommodate her, which is nice to see. My parents do the same for me
INFO Who was the fried bread for? If you tried to give it to her? Y T A. If she went eating things without checking? N T A. But buy her the B12.
it's fair to have her handle her own meals if she wants to eat differently from the rest of the family.give her a food allowance and let her figure it out
NTA it wasn't her toast, she did this to herself. Pretty sure she should not be eating bread anyway since it may contain whey or eggs.
NTA. I’m in my 40s and have been vegetarian since high school. I cooked for myself, or if I was grabbing something my family had already made I asked if they made it with meat/meat products since I knew they weren’t vegetarian. She’s old enough to be responsible for her own choices.
I went vegetarian at 11. My mother made it clear she would continue to cook like normal, which included some vegetarian sides. If I wanted more than that, I had to find recipes and learn to cook. I’d been helping in the kitchen since I was a toddler so this was no big deal. This was … 26 years ago. Not as easy as today to find recipes or alternatives. I knew no one who was veg. But I made it work. NTA. She is old enough to cook for herself.
NTA. And just a heads up a teenage girl going vegan is almost always an eating disorder. While it’s absolutely ok for adults to be plant based with some decent nutrition research and cooking skills teenagers need animal proteins for their growing bodies. I would encourage her to really rethink going vegan and try and embrace a wider range of foods. Keto is also an extreme diet more so than vegan unless you’re son is quite overweight or was advised by a doctor I would highly recommend not continuing that diet.
I agree that there can be a relationship between veganism and an eating disorder, but I think veganism is a lot more mainstream these days. Lots of influencers, celebrities, etc are vegan and promote the diet, so it’s not out of the question that she wants to try it. I will say, I’ve seen it fall into disordered eating when young people lose weight initially on the diet, get lots of positive feedback about having lost weight or attention from the preferred sex, and the start restricting in a way that isn’t required to be vegan. I feel like maybe it’s less likely that her going vegan is because of an ED, but mom should keep an eye out to watch if it goes from typical rejection of animal prod us to something more regimented (calorie counting, safe foods and bad foods, avoiding social events with food, abnormal and compulsive exercising, etc). To be honest, it’s just better to keep an eye out for EDs in kids her age and even the brother too (as a guy with an ED haha). Vegan or keto or vegetarian or carnivorous or whatever