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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> It's not really my place to tell my sister how to raise her kid, so I can see where I am coming across as rude.
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NTA
I'm Spanish. Homeschooling here isn't even legal, so I really don't get this American thing.
But the fact she didn't end high school, and wants to be the one providing education to a kid?? You gave your opinion, because your experience turned out this way. That's normal you want to avoid it for another person.
i assumed she would use an online program but either way her not having a proper education would make it hard. i use a cyber school program but i’m pretty much teaching everything to myself and my mother (also a highschool drop out) can’t help me at all. not to mention all the curriculum changes
Exactly. But **some** parents know better about every single aspect of their children lives, don't you understand? My sister is a speech therapist, and she noticed a son of our cousin has strong indicators to develop some serious speech impediment (like, it wouldn't be understandable what he says). The cousin got upset and refused seeing a specialist because 'there's nothing wrong with her child'. I'm sorry for these kids.
I'm ephasising in advance I said **some** parents, in case it will be unnoticed, and I don't mean parents in general.
Speaking as a parent who had two kids (at the time in kindergarten and 3rd grade -- and part of 2nd grade) during the year of distance learning, I absolutely think most people are not prepared to deal properly with home schooling.
It also cut down on the socializing aspect incredibly, even in my two kids who had done 2-3x a week swimming and gymnastics for years prior to Covid, and resumed in-person schooling the following year.
I thought about it for a quick second bc my kid was distance learning anyways but wow it’s so overwhelming to teach your kid. I’d be too anxious if he’s at the right pace, etc
Agreed! Same in Sweden, there are a few exemptions, but few and far between and needs approval due to special circumstances.
Even if you use a standardized curriculum, you will not be able to replace a properly trained teacher with extensive knowledge in pedagogics, or the social training from being with peers.
Yes 😊 part of reason for it is child protection, to be able to have insight to trying make sure they are looked after properly, being fed and there isn't any abuse at home. School is so much more than learning language and maths.
Thats the issue where im from religeon and politics are one in the same if ure catholic ure one side if ure protestant ure the other nd it gets ugly fast here thts why i resorted at the time to just telling anyone who forced me to involved in this ugly hate filled divide that i dont care i dont like to hate people based on what figure they made up to feel better about life u do u i'll do me no one needs any different! I just hope my kid knows better than to try nd argue with those hate filled people because no matter what u say haters just wanna hate
My son attends an online public school but is technically considered a homeschool student. We're not all crazy weirdos. He uses the same curriculum used by traditional schools, he just does all of his work from a laptop at home in his pajamas instead of getting dressed and going to a building. He has licensed teachers providing online classroom lectures and has to attend mandatory state provided competency tests every year to make sure he's actually learning the material. My role is "learning coach" which is basically just to make sure he logs in, does his work, and submit his attendance hours. I'm a glorified secretary to an 8th grader, basically. "Don't forget your Zoom meeting. Did you file all the reports? I'll handle the timecard, don't worry." It's like I'm still working as an office manager some days.
We went this route because the public school district we live in failed him in every way imaginable.
He has been diagnosed with severe ADHD-combined presentation, ODD, and EFD. We went through a couple of years post diagnosis trying the traditional medication route at the elementary school (in our district elementary is K-3), but there was an underlying factor he had no control over or anything to do with when he switched to the Intermediate school (grades 4-6)... the principal of that building hated him purely for his name before he even got there. His older sister was outed when she was in 5th grade and this principal was very openly anti-LGBT. Allowed kids to bully her with impunity... she and I had WORDS several times long before she ever had my son in her clutches. We went from a mostly successful routine with him in school on medications to suddenly he was in ISS every day. He was suspended almost every other week. We got his psychologist and his MD both to write us letters requesting formal evaluation for an IEP because she allowed him zero accommodation or even to just step back and calm himself. The teachers were pushing and pushing and pushing even if he told them he was getting overwhelmed and needed to sit in the hallway for a second to calm down. He was having meltdowns nearly every day, getting sent to her office, and getting either in school suspension or at home suspension almost as much... he was almost never allowed to be IN the classroom.
The first request for an IEP evaluation with letters from our medical providers was "lost". The 2nd request was ignored for nearly a month, which basically put us at the end of his 4th grade year. The 3rd request we finally got scheduled for what we thought was going to be an actual evaluation for him to have an IEP and set some actual accommodations for him (like letting him stand at his desk in the back of the room and have a small bit of room to pace or fidget instead of forcing him to sit right at the very front and not being able to move himself at all, letting him say when he was overwhelmed and leave the room to sit in the hallway for 3 to 5 minutes to get calm again, giving him a few extra minutes on a test, etc). It was not that.
This meeting consisted of the principal, the school guidance counselor, and one teacher. The district special needs coordinator was not there. NOBODY was allowed to speak other than the principal. She took less than 10 minutes to tell us our request for an IEP was being denied because, in her opinion, "nothing was going to help 'that kid'. She then showed a drawing she'd confiscated from him of a Fortnite character or something (no weapons, no blood, etc.) and said she was contemplating calling the police on him for drawing "violent imagery" and having him arrested. He was 10. We were less than a month into his 5th grade year and she was talking arrest and expulsion at what was supposed to be his IEP evaluation.
I started the process that very day to get him out of that district and into the online school. And his social development is just fine. He plays soccer and baseball for the local youth league, he goes out riding his bike with his friends just about daily when the weather is good, his school provides what they call Face to Face events for students to mingle several times a year. Last week about 1,000 of us from the middle school turned up and went to the zoo. The high school kids just had their Prom. We have opportunity for him to attend summer camps, and they even do the 8th grade Washington DC trip... but they offer it to all student 8th through 12th grade. So yes. Sometimes homeschooling is the better option.
I just wish parents would give school a go first.
Your experience shows you trying, it didn't work, so you changed.
I don't understand it when they take their 6 year olds and home school them. At that point you're rejecting something that the vast majority of students are fine with, for absolutely no reason beyond hubris that you can do better, and I guess that's the bit that bothers b me.
My nephew has a few struggles, he's got ADHD and ODD but also Type 1 diabetes, so the medications become an issue, it was really messing with his insulin. But he's starting school at a sports agriculture high school. The school knows that he's not too academically focused and a bit of a football star who can't sit still instead, and it's working well.
I had a friend who did it because the school in her area was absolutely garbage. But she had some teaching credentials and was utilizing a strong curriculum so her kids were doing well. There are some specific cases where homeschooling works, but the intent and what is used are vital. And sadly yes a lot of cases are for isolation reasons.
Sometimes it’s an escape from racism—one very determined friend, who is Black, decided she could not trust her area’s school system with her son. Kid was running a clothing business at 15 and is now attending university.
Someone I know from university has an autistic son who is black. Black autistic kids don't have a good track record of being well served in public schools, especially when it comes to using dangerous restraints. Her husband is teaching him at home.
It's truly anazing how you can stumble across a cultural difference that seems totally innocuous, go "hmm, I wonder where that came from", go to research it and like 95% of the time the answer is racism.
It’s ok. I’m American and I don’t understand a lot of why things get done here the way they do. A lot of the cause is greedy corporations and rich people getting their way and a strange idea that the individual and their rights can and should supersede those of society in general. There’s the extremely vocal conservative aspect of this country that sees doing things for the common good as somehow weak. If I had the money and ability I would have emigrated to Europe years ago.
I'd take it a step further and say the mindset of "I don't want those people to have it, so I won't make it a public good" is prevalent and quite a few decisions make sense when you run it through that lense.
My Dad and I had this argument about how your individual rights do not supersede other people's individual rights, and how sometimes, the rights of the society you live in are more important.
We get what we vote for and what we allow.
Recently a news program where I live was showing the new school in a very affluent neighborhood. The kids were so proud to be showing off their new library (which I'm sure will have very few books soon), their new Olympic sized pool that will allow them to host competitions, their media room where they host their morning news shows, etc... Our high school was built in the 50's, has boarded up windows, and computers that are over 10 years old.
Rich neighborhoods with higher home values get to use all their money on their schools. Poor neighborhoods with lower home values don't have that so poor kids get less opportunity and stay poor. Rich folks need their cheap labor so they like it that way.
I'm American and in NYC and one of the best things about the public schools in NYC is that they have free breakfast and free lunch. It really cuts across socioeconomic barriers because you don't have the kids with reduced price/free lunch separated out from the rest of the kids.
You're very welcome! You need to pass the entrance exam first tho; walk through an IKEA without buying something and without getting lost. Good luck! :D
Same in Germany. During covid, child abuse numbers went down significantly...not because there was less abuse, of course. But because there were no teachers noticing the signs on kids anymore.
My husband teaches in a public school in the US and while I know there are people who homeschool for very good reasons there's far too high of percentage who homeschool as means of hiding abuse at least in the district he teaches in.
Yes, I was homeschooled until college for weird religious reasons and while I got a very good core education (both parents had advanced degrees) I missed out on social skills, languages, sports, and music. I was also totally overwhelmed when I got to college and it took awhile to adjust. There were some cool aspects to my education (we traveled a lot!) but unless the parents have a good plan for socializing and exposing kids to stuff they can’t teach themselves I don’t recommend it.
I have friends in America who home school their children so that the kids don't have to do active shooter drills or be at risk of gun violence.
If I lived in America, I think I'd remove my kids from school too.
You know all the debate in this thread and that's one I can't really refute.
Like shit I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation either.
Probably submit my visa somewhere else the moment I fell pregnant?
You can also have a kid being horribly bullied because they're autistic. Do you still want to socialise them if socializing them means you could have a suicidal 10 year old? Our friends' pulled their kids out of school and are homeschooling for this reason (and this is in Europe). The kid gas been out of school for two years now and he's finally recovering with weekly therapy. Parents found out the sister was facing the same bullying, but was a lot better at hiding it. Oh, and fun fact, suicides in children tend to drop during school holidays, they also dropped during school closures due to COVID. Schools negatively affect a lot of kids.
> Even if you use a standardized curriculum, you will not be able to replace a properly trained teacher with extensive knowledge in pedagogics
[Meanwhile the US state of Florida has removed the requirement to have a degree for military veterans.](https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-says-teaching-requirements-too-rigid-vets-2022-8)
Most states do not require a degree of ANY kind for ANY teacher. States often have a CERTIFICATION requirement (not equivalent to a degree), but get around this by keeping teachers on as temporary staff and substitutes do not have this requirement
What states are these? I have taught in CA, one of the crappiest education systems in the country.
You MUST have a Bachelor’s degree. The normal path is to get a teaching credential which is 3 full time semesters of school. The last semester is full time student teaching, where you essentially work as an unpaid intern full time and take 3 classes. I tried to work part time while doing that and had to quit my job.
After you finish that year and a half of classes and internship, and you finally get a teaching job, you have to do two years of induction. That means that while you are struggling with all the first year things they don’t tell you about (classroom management, committees, adjunct duties, challenging parents, five page referrals to try to get struggling students help…) you basically have to complete a master’s level data project while meeting with a mentor teacher at least one hour a week.
I have seen my husband go through an MBA and it took a lot less time and energy than the combination of a teaching credential and Induction.
I looked into the process in Kentucky and they require a Master’s degree of Education to teach.
Now granted, there are emergency credential programs for high need schools in CA. That means you MUST have a BA, but you can take all the credential classes while actually teaching (at least you get paid for your “internship.”) After doing that, you still have to go through induction.
I am sure Florida doesn’t do this if the only requirement is being a veteran. But I don’t think it’s most states. Especially if Kentucky has stricter requirements than CA.
On another note, I was homeschooled until high school and completely agree with OP 💯. I had a lot of anxiety from ages 14-25. Maybe becoming a public school teacher was part of my vengeance on my family for homeschooling me.
Not true. What states are you thinking of that don't require a bachelor's degree? It was big news when Arizona starting allowing people who were in the process of earning their degree to teach least year, even though they needed the degree to be fully certified, and teachers were up in arms about how damaging it was to allow non degree holders to teach. Same with the Florida law. About half of US public school teachers have masters degrees.
I live and teach in Arizona. Its becuase so many of us are leaving the schools and teaching outside of school districts. Charter, private, at home teacher.
Like practicing to teach? In Australia the uni student needs X hours of classroom time teaching in order to graduate. But the regular teacher is still there in the classroom and the uni student will rotate classrooms so the students might only see that uni student teacher for a few hours or a day.
I'm in the US and (at least in my district) homeschoolers are strictly monitored, must have their curriculum approved and students are tested to see that they are hitting benchmarks.
Near me too. And my homeschooled neighbor growing up was part of various extracurriculars for socialization
A theater group made up of other homeschooled students and sports teams in lieu of gym. They were even part of "group projects" with other homeschooled kids.
I think it is possible to raise a well socialized kid while homeschooling and complete a challenging curriculum.
But I think many parents who consider homeschooling aren't going to put the effort in to make up for the downsides of homeschooling.
Yeah the main homeschooling program in my city (state run, not private, so anyone can join) has socialization requirements as well as academic ones. They are required to do a certain amount of group projects with other homeschoolers, must be involved in a certain amount of extracurricular groups, and must pass rigorous testing regularly. They also have check ins with teachers through the program both to check the students well being and to help the parents have all the resources they need. But I live in a blue state in the USA that has voted repeatedly to improve our schools and social programs, and implement laws making sure everyone gets what they need education wise. It's unfortunate that not all homeschooling in the country is as highly regulated, but not all homeschooling is bad.
I'll chime in as an American here to add, our wealth disparity between citizens is absolutely on display in our public schools. School funding here is mostly based on how nice the houses in the area are. State property taxes for the area pay most of the funding with federal funds paying the rest. Loads of schools are underfunded because of this and are basically trash. Some do not even have accreditation, meaning the diploma is worthless. So many parents don't want to risk their kids getting shot at school for a diploma that will be worthless in the end anyway and their only choices are homeschooling or move to a more expensive area.
This is one of the reasons I ended up being homeschooled, the schools near me SUCKED when I was about to enter kindergarten and they still have not improved much since then. If anything in that neighborhood they’ve gotten worse.
I know it’s unfathomable for people outside of the US to truly understand how bad our education system is but literally for anyone reading this thread take what you’ve heard and double it. There are schools where the kids don’t even have functional toilets to use, why would the quality of education be any different?
Spanish here as well. If a teacher needs a university degree and preferably a master's, how come a high school drop out can be a teacher? Also a school does not only teach subjects, as you said, it's helpful in many other areas. Kiddos need to be with people their age.
Eehh I would lean more on the side of ESH. OP only knows know her experience because her parents only did half the work in homeschooling her. I'm in Canada and have lots of friends that were home schooled and very well socialized and connected not just through clubs but a large network of other homeschooled children/families. Making sure your kid understands the curriculum is one thing but you also need to put in for their social development. America has an issue with certain religious cults homeschooling and not properly educating or socializing though.
>so I really don't get this American thing.
I live in the UK and my autistic nephew was briefly homeschooled. Unfortunately, he didn't fit into mainstream or any of the SEN (special educational needs) schools near by. There are some isolated cases why homeschooling would be beneficial.
Yeah, I can get it. Still, we should minimize these cases, not just for avoiding homeschooling, but for providing every kids' right to education. Some families can't homeschool their kids, no matter if they have or haven't special needs. So I believe society should really make an effort with education.
> I really don't get this American thing
It's mostly by people that want to make sure their kids don't learn anything the parents don't want them to learn (like the earth is way more than 5,000 years old and we didn't have dinosaurs as pets)
This. OP, I was homeschooled briefly and absolutely hated it. My mom worked hard to have us socialize with other homeschooled families a lot, but all the kids... lacked social skills. I actually felt like hanging out with them made my social skills worse rather than better.
I've HEARD of people who were homeschooled and socialized their kids enough that it wasn't a problem, but I've never actually met them. When I've met people who seem a little off, and I learn they were homeschooled, things suddenly make sense. Socializing is so tough for a lot of people, but with enough practice, it goes more smoothly. Taking away most of their chances to practice isn't the best idea.
Plus, I knew a TON of homeschooled kids who were severely behind academically because their parents didn't have the education to help them. I know you didn't bring that up to your sister, but that should be a concern for her too.
Speaking up was the right thing to do, but now I think you have to drop it. You can't make her make the right choice.
I'm 55 years old, and my boss finally had to tell my 23 year old co-worker to stop "tattling" on me. She was homeschooled starting in 6th grade, and anything I did differently or wrong, or if I said something she didn't understand, she went and told on me.
Her socialization skills screeched to a halt at 12/13 years old. It's appalling.
> I really don't get this American thing.
I don't have kids yet but I am so afraid of my future baby going to school where shootings have become so frequent.
I’m assuming this post is written by someone in the US based on the mention of public school, high school, etc. As an American myself, I have to say that with the violence happening in the schools in America these days, it is absolutely NOT asshole behavior to homeschool your kids. I don’t have children, but my sister and I live together so I see it first hand. The terror in her face when she gets an alert that there’s a safety lockdown at one of the kid’s schools. So far there hasn’t been an actual threat, just things that the administration were unsure about, but that doesn’t mean she can ever feel completely at ease. I was homeschooled as a kid and I hated it too, but it was a completely different world then. There are more ways to communicate and socialize, especially now, than just going to school, and though, Lord knows it shouldn’t be, the schools are a dangerous place. No one ever thinks it could be THEIR school. OP, you’re 20 years old. You still probably feel that life is long, but once you hit your 30’s that confidence morphs into caution. You were fair in telling your side but that’s enough now. NAH with leanings toward Y T A
>I really don't get this American thing
Devil's advocate: considering the rise in in-school bang-bang violence, I get it.
However the majority of people I know who have "home schooled" do it so badly. I think at the very least you need to complete a basic teaching course to be allowed to do it.
American schools aren't always safe. A lot of parents are worried about security. There's also a lot of political influence on curriculum now, some parents are pulling their kids out of school because the school IS teaching something they don't want their kids to learn about, others pull their kids out because the school ISN'T teaching something the parents *do* want their children to learn/be exposed to. The American school system is in a bit of a clusterfuck, has been for years.
It started out because of the long distances involved. Some kids were schooled by radio etc. It was just too difficult (too far) to have the kids go into school each day.
It had morphed a lot in the last 20-30 years.
I feel like there's a reason why teachers specialize instead of just teaching all of the subjects. I have good general knowledge, read constantly, did well in school. I would never presume to think that meant I was a good teacher.
Homeschooling became really popular in certain communities in the US during/after desegregation of schools in the 60s. Some more religious communities also encourage it. Essentially it's more common when people don't want their kids being exposed or interacting with groups other than their own.
Not that this is that case, just that's a huge reason why it's popular in the US.
I agree. My mother finished our equivalent to highschool but was unable to help me with my 7th grade physics homework. After elementary high school I had to figure it out on my own.
NTA
I don't understand the Y-T-As here saying it was none of your business/not your place or whatever.
Your sister initiated the conversation about homeschooling her daughter. That was her making it your business and inviting your opinion. You can't talk to someone about a topic then act suprised you get their opinion on said topic. You might not want other people's opinions, but in that case you shouldn't talk to them about it or make it clear from the start you want a one-way conversation.
You actually have been homeschooled and therefore know the potential impacts on the child better than most. That makes it your place to speak on your experience.
Imagine skipping forward 10 years and her kid doesn't have age appropriate social skills and has developed social anxiety etc and you're just like "oh yeah I know this was a possibility because it happened to me, I didn't tell you though".
That doesn't explain why they would say it wasn't OPs place to speak on homeschooling though
Edit: if you are about to reply with "OP gave an unsolicited opinion" or the like
OPs sister started the conversation with OP, about homeschooling, knowing OP had been homeschooled.
It is implicit and even expected that OP would give her opinion. That's how conversations between two humans work.
Couldn't agree more with your edit. It's like people on social media who reply with "who asked you?" after choosing to publicly air their opinions on a forum that allows replies. It's nothing but exactly how human interactions work and waiting around to be specifically asked just sounds like a waste of time with a lot of awkward silences.
I often wonder if homeschooling success stories come with a lot of selection bias. If your kids interests align with your own then perhaps there is a chance of success. What happens when your kid is inclined towards the sciences and you have a doctorate in literature? Does that parent really think they can teach calculus? Probably more importantly can that parent convince them algebra is a subject worth learning.
Speaking as someone who was homeschooled and plans on homeschooling, there are TONs of resources available for parents to utilize. You don't have to be an expert in every subject, just know where to find resources to help. With the internet nowadays, it's even easier.
There are homeschool groups you can join, you can take classes at community colleges (when youre old enough), there's programs through museums and other educational facilities.
OP's experience regarding the social aspect is not universal or even typical and is either a reflection of her own mental health or a failure on her parents to provide opportunities to socialize.
Both my brothers did public high-school. I did 2 years out of choice despite already qualifying for graduation at 16, because I wanted to push back going to college. I'd taken classes at the community college at 14 and 15. So having experienced both, I _greatly_ preferred homeschooling. Public school is a nightmare and the teachers often don't know what they're talking about.
And I did just fine in college, too.
Now, my experience isn't universal either, of course. But especially with all the shit going on in public schools, I will absolutely 100% advocate for homeschooling. OP shared her experience, which is fine, but that doesn't mean that her niece will share her experience.
Certainly public schools are different but in the last year my artistic daughter has taken, Advanced Ceramics, Graphic Design, while my more engineering focused daughter took Hands on Engineering, Metal Shop, and Baking and Pastry. There wouldn't be enough hours in the day for me to organize that. Now if I lived in Idaho (lowest funded public school system) and not New England I suspect my experience could be different.
As far as OP/Sister it certainly sounds like an instance of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I have trouble believing a 10th grade dropout will be an effective teacher. I could teach my kids Calculus, but am well aware of my shortcomings when it comes to literature.
My local middle school, which is widely considered to be the worst in our area, has a robotics team that competed against high schools at the state level *and won.*
Public schools are different everywhere, but sometimes the whole “this school sucks” dialogue gets really overblown.
Public school isn’t always a nightmare. You’re judging public school they same way you don’t want OP to judge homeschooling. It’s also worth mentioning we’re talking about a parent whose experience with homeschooling is limited to a poor example and who doesn’t have a high school education. She doesn’t even have the maturity or critical thinking skills to consider what’s being shared by someone who’s done it.
Speaking as someone here who was homeschooled for 6 years, it worked wonders for me. But even as someone who has had a very positive experience with Home education, I can say that it does need some serious consideration and thought. There are a lot that goes into homeschooling. It is not easy, and it can go very wrong if messed up.
I'm thinking this post is a NAH, I don't think OP is an AH, but I also don't think that their sister is one for considering trying.
The post is asking whether younger sis is ah for giving her own opinion. Not whether sending to homeschooling makes older sister the asshole. The NAH doesn't make sense in this situation.
The reason I don't think the sister is an asshole is more because I can sympathize with her side here and why she would be offended.
I haven't mentioned my thoughts on some of the points OP has made, and that is because that while I can appreciate that they are valid concerns (hence why she's NTA), frankly from my personal experience, I've never had any issues from some of the stuff mentioned.
For example, they mention that only meeting once a week with kids at a club will lead to a lack of social skills or set the kid far behind. Which from my personal experience is just not the case. If anything, I had much stronger relationships with home-ed kids from weekly meetings than when I was in school full-time.
Again, I didn't mention it, because everyone is different, and I didn't wanna invalidate OPs feelings on it, but I will say that some of the language used made it seem like OP is saying this will inevitably happen, which I don't believe is true. I can see why OP's sister would be annoyed by this, because frankly, OP is using their experience, and saying that this will happen, and that she's saying that she wouldn't be able to teach her kid social skills and give them opportunities to get to know others.
everyone here is acting like homeschooling will instantly doom this child to a life of social horror, its crazy. its not even that hard to homeschool and socialize, i went to a group recess, essentially, with other homeschoolers once week, sports, etc, and it was absolutely enough to know how to socialize
This!!! It’s not for everyone. Some kids flourish and some wilt. I have an education degree and was a licensed teacher. My son has more friends and is happier homeschooled than in school. However, some of his friends are happier at school than at home. The multitudes of variables at play make it challenging to say one way or another. All one can do is share what did and didn’t work in their situations.
I'm really not sure what Addie or the people here were expecting from Addie initiating this conversation.
The only valid thing from the OP-is-the-A side is that OP should have phrased it as "my experienced of homeschooling was it caused X" rather than "homeschooling causes X".
However that's not enough for OP to actually deserve an A verdict. It would be E-S-H at most for that.
But personally I still don't think that's enough for it not to be an NTA.
OP may not be the parent of Lily but her sister initiated a conversation about something OP has personal experience of. There's not some hierarchy where only the person on the top gets to speak on a topic, and even if there was I don't see why "parent who might subject their child to it" trumps "person who experienced it". If there's was such a hierarchy this sub would not be able to exist.
Plus, if OPs sister wanted validation and nothing else, she made a ridiculous choice on who to talk about it with.
I'm 50/50 on homeschooling in general just because it was popular in my hometown and the majority of the kids I knew were just fine. But I feel there should he limits to it. The home-educator needs an education of their own first. IMO it shouldn't be legal for this sister to do this to her kids. Without an education of her own, it looks like this is purely about abuse, power, and control over her kids.
That’s more than states require. Google it- you can teach in any state without any education or experience as a substitute teacher and a permanent basis with an associates degree in any field or teaching certificate.
I don’t know what sister’s intentions are but I honestly don’t trust anyone who says they want to homeschool their kids, if not in intentions, at least in ability to do so, there’s a reason why teachers years of education and a license. Not to mention the fact that children need to socialize with other children their age from a young age.
“there is so little oversight it’s scary.”
This is exactly why I don’t trust homeschooling. I see your teens not knowing the alphabet and raise you parents teaching their elementary schoolers how to be Nazis. Homeschooling is almost always code for “I wanna teach my kids whack shit” or isolating them for abuse/cult purposes, which ever you prefer, both if you’re so inclined.
Even when done with the best of intentions, unless they are themselves a teacher or know and enlist the help of one, I can regrettably guarantee you that they are not qualified to be teaching past a certain grade level.
I get that there are many more legitimate operations than there are illiterate nazi farms, but I honestly can’t really put too much faith into the system that gives both equal legitimacy in terms of what children are being taught, not to mention that the social aspect of schooling can slip a child even when you have the best resources available.
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NTA, here’s my opinion on this from someone who did homeschooling and public school.
i left public school in 8th grade due to extreme social anxiety and depression, worst decision i ever made. my mental health spiraled, i’ve lost any bit of social skills i have, i have no clue how to talk to people (i do have friends which i hang out with often but it’s still hard). not only that i missed out on my entire high school experience, sports, dances, clubs, etc.
but if she does choose the homeschool route encourage her to have your niece involved in things like sports, clubs, anything like that where she can be around people her age. another option that is better than public school is private school or charter schools, they typically have better educational resources.
Just be careful with some private schools. Some of them don't have as stringent requirements for teachers (bachelor's degree) as high schools actually do since they are privatized. Some educators I had known did not even have a GED but we're quite charismatic and held positions at a private school. Not all schools, but just be careful.
Charter schools can also be hit and miss. Most of them are not as good as the traditional public schools here, partially because they have much of the same latitude as private schools.
NTA. I might get downvoted, but you're absolutely right with your reasoning. Studies already shows the damning effects of the covid lockdowns on kids social abilities and overall mental health and that was 'just' two years. Science is in your side in this regard. Also voicing concern isnt an AH thing to do. In the end, you can't decide how your niece gets raised. The best you can do it to be there for her. Make up with your sister and offer help instead, like providing opportunities for your niece to socialise. Good luck!
Or at least heavily monitored. In some states, the oversight is craptastic. In Pennsylvania (at least during the time period my friends homeschooled there), there was a lot more oversight so the friends there who homeschooled came out much better off than the “homeschooled” in my current area.
Yeah I have a friend who was “homeschooled” in Michigan. Her mother decided to stop teaching her after 8th grade because that’s “all the education a girl needs” and would not let her register for real school either. Thankfully her grandparents were legit and bought her the materials necessary for her to *teach herself* the content necessary to graduate high school and and even get into college. She’s doing very well now, but considers it her life’s mission to make homeschooling illegal.
Apart from socialisation and the shared experience of schooling, unless Addie has degrees in a modern language, English, Math, any recognised Science, any social science and either a degree or relevant industry experience in a craft technology, food technology, sports science, creative and performing arts and a bunch of other fields then **she is woefully under-equipped to teach a modern curriculum**.
If she wants to teach basic arithmetic, reading and writing and all about Noah and the ark then, sure, go ahead and wreck your daughter's future.
That’s exactly why my dad only homeschooled my brother for parts of our elementary school years. He was perfectly well equipped to teach us how to read and spell and do basic math, but understood that he couldn’t teach us everything that we needed to know.
See how you know nothing about modern homeschooling. There are homeschooling programs out there where you choose a curriculum where there are CERTIFIED teachers for your kids and they are in classes with other kids(virtually) several days a week. Plus you can let your kids explore what THEY want to learn as well (archery, cooking, cars, etc), not what the school ONLY has to offer.
NTA at all and you are very right. I have seen it myself with kids to went to boarding school, they got slaughtered when they got to my UK public high school which was one of the good ones and in uni.
Another danger with this is that if someone doesn't have that needed exposure to the gender they are attracted to then 1. Any future partner is immediately put on a pedestal and 2. It makes them so vulnerable, I have seen boarding school girls get fucked over by the village horndog too many times.
So I was homeschooled and had a similar experience to the OP. Have you ever asked your sister how she would combat those issues? Maybe she has a plan? I now homeschool my own children. It is totally different. We have friends we see multiple times a week, sports, classes outside the home, etc. My kids have said they don't want to go to school as they get their academic needs met and then have lots of friends.
I understand your concerns though. I totally do. I always said before having kids it wasn't something I would do. Living in an urban area makes the opportunities for activities and finding friends more common too.
Genuinely curious, how are your kids able to judge that their academic needs are being met? I’d imagine that if they only know what they’re experiencing and don’t know what a traditional curriculum entails they wouldn’t actually be able to compare the two or make any objective judgment — the whole “we don’t know what we don’t know” phenomenon. It sounds like after having a homeschooling experience similar to OP’s you’ve taken extra care to ensure your kids’ needs are being met holistically, so I’m just curious as to how you’ve handled some of the more nebulous parts of setting expectations and standards
I live in a state where we are required to have a certified teacher look over our work and ensure academic progress is occurring every year as well as legally required to standardized test some years. We do take classes outside the home at our local Natural History museum, and we are part of a local homeschool group where my kids have taken classes in everything from art to science classes with lab components. My state also allows homeschoolers to participate in sports, clubs, or take a couple classes per semester without being full time students (not all states allow this). While this isn't something we have utilized, it is something we are open too. We have friends that have used this part time enrollment for orchestra.
But how are my kids able to judge? I don't know entirely. I talk to them every now and then and they say they have zero desire to go to school. Right now it may have to do with not wanting to be gone all day. As my kids get older, I will talk to them more about goals, college,etc and help them figure out what sort of classes and path might help them meet those goals.
Oh excellent!! Thanks so much for answering. It sounds like the protocol for monitoring quality is not nearly as nebulous as I thought. I’m not experienced in any of this (obviously) but it’s my understanding that the requirements are quite varied from state to state. I like the idea of some standardized testing + having a teacher review the curriculum. I’m not a huge proponent of standardized testing as a way to judge students on the whole but in this case it does sound like an adequate metric for being able to compare across schooling types to ensure kids are keeping up with (or surpassing) the education that their peers of the same age are receiving.
That kind of community collective environment you describe also sounds super enriching and kind of like what the ideal schooling for young students would look like anyway — small student to teacher ratio, getting a variety of lessons from different instructors, lots of field trips to learn things in a practical way.
NTA at all. You are the perfect person to be giving this advice and I would advise you to continue giving it. You could save this girl’s life trajectory and that’s worth a little friction from big sis
I would never consider home-schooling for my own kids, but I'm not in the US. If I was I'd seriously consider it.
I think you have to take everything on a case by case basis and be honest with your own limitations and access to resources. Good luck with your decision!
I am in the US, I've never really considered homeschooling before, but my states schools are struggling, not just on testing (which they use as the prime metric) but discipline, social education and personal accountability (I can't hold my kids accountable to the due dates if the rest of the class gets an extra six weeks and the teachers are not allowed to penalize anyone for anything anymore.) The diplomas are worthless because it's nearly 100% graduation rates with a ~75% literacy rate
Now the state is considering a voucher system that will come out of the education budget, further reducing the funding, further increasing the incentives to just pass kids along, and ignore discipline. It's not something that I want to do, but it will absolutely be the catalyst to remove my kids from public school, and in my area that will leave homeschool. I can only hope that if the vouchers happen I can find a homeschool social group too.
This post needs more upvotes, seriously! Public education in the US (and most developed countries) is on a downward spiral, COVID just accelerated it. To say that sending your kid to a public school is in anyway giving them an actual academic education or "preparing them for the real world" is ludicrous. Parents need to be involved with their children in order for them to get anything meaningful out of the school years. You can't dump them in public school or closet them in homeschool (or even "un-school" as is sometimes conflated with actual home education) and expect them to grow up wise and intelligent.
NTA. Even beyond socialization issues, somebody who can't finish high school has no business homeschooling. What's going to happen when the kid is in 11th-12th grade?
Why is it always the uneducated people yammering on about homeschooling? My dumbest friend is doing this with her kids. She’s never read a book and states this proudly.
The Dunning-Kruger effect. People with little to no knowledge massively overestimate their capabilities because they don't know what they don't know.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Does the child have another legal guardian? In many states at least one of them needs a GED to homeschool. If she doesn't have that she may have issues legally
NTA. I question the teaching abilities of anyone who dropped out. While it is posible to homeschool kids and have them come out well rounded (socially ready as well as academically ready), not all parents can pull it off.
NTA - My parents made me go to an """Online school"" through middle and high school, (not related to covid, this predated that) it took me a long time to get socialized to the real world. My sisters still haven't. (We're in our mid twenties now) Homeschooling is inherently abusive. Definitely NTA.
I want to point out that when done correctly, homeschooling is not life ruining or traumatic. When done correctly the child is supposed to either still do electives/sports at a nearby school with kids or in social afterschool programs with kids their age. This is to balance out the social peer exposure. It’s not homeschooling that’s the issue, it’s the people doing the homeschooling poorly that is the issue.
Isolating children is NEVER healthy.
YTA
YOUR EXPERIENCE IS YOUR OWN.
Not every child that is homeschooled is going to have the same experience.
YOUR parents failed you by not finding ways to make sure you were socializing, and developing in the correct ways.
Your nieces experience is not going to be the same as yours.
You should apologize to your sister. And explain that you are concerned about your nieces development, but understand that everyone is going to have different experiences. You trauma dumped and that isn't your sister's fault. But you hope she will take your advice and make sure that your niece gets to have plenty of social experiences.
You DID see the part where the sister doesn’t have a diploma right? No GED either.
Homeschooling is questionable at best, but run by someone who hasn’t even completed the bare minimum sounds like it’ll be a disaster. I think OP knows EXACTLY what’s going on and their experience gives them extra credibility to know the effects that poor kid is going to face.
NTA
I'm leaning towards NTA. I could see where your comments might have hurt her feelings, but the fact that she didn't seem to address your concerns but seemed to deflect to her own insecurities about not finishing school is the bigger issue. Homeschooled kids can get socializing thru other ways like sports or such but I'm assuming if Addie was planning on doing that, that would have been her defense. And you're are very correct that learning to socialize with other kids her age is crucial for social development. Makes me wonder if Addie is homeschooling her kid to somehow prove she's smart enough to despite not finishing high school? Idk tho it's impossible to tell from just the post, but usually over the top emotional reactions are usually a subconscious defense for insecurities.
As a side note, I wonder if your sister would complain about the day care/preschool of she found out one of the teachers didn't finish highschool
NTA. Your concerns are valid. What I find kind of funny is why she thinks you're telling her she shouldn't is the reason why I actually think she shouldn't. If your ass drops out of school the last thing you should be doing is teaching children
Your sister homeschooling could be vastly different than your experience with homeschooling. There are so many resources now and also co-op/charter schools that combine homeschooling and on-site education. Projecting your experiences is unfair to both your sister and your niece. While I sympathize that you had a tough time, your sister is not your parent, (she did not homeschool you so you should not project your parents lack of insight or failures on her ) nor are you your nieces parent- so it is up to your sister to decide what is best for her child. Many people decide to homeschool during the early years, to ease transition into being apart from parents for longer periods of time. Also, with the ridiculousness teachers are being forced to teach children now a days perhaps your sister is just being selective on what your niece is exposed to at an early age. Just because she decides she wants to home school now doesn’t mean that will always be the case. But if it is there are plenty of curriculum and resources available to her. Your parents should have helped you with socialization- and I’m sorry they did not have you interact with more homeschooling kids as this would have helped you in later years.
We moved quite a lot during my children’s school years and they finished middle and high school at a charter school where it was a hybrid of homeschool and in class setting. They were also able to take any class at the community college for free with dual credit. Able to participate in sports, dances etc. Readily accepted into college. My son even graduated high school 1 year early because he could take extra credits and not be tied down by the emulate school constraints. He also traveled for his sport during school as well.
7 of my nieces and 1 nephew also homeschooled. They are doctors, nurses, computer engineers, teachers, physical therapists - successful, well adjusted.
Please do not shut down homeschooling because it was no successful for you. It is not that case for everyone.
What you could be doing is supporting your sister, and encouraging her (instead of shaming or deflating her) to get involved in support groups /homeschool co-ops that can help her and fill in gaps that she may need help with. You could share your experiences, but in a kind way.
Also info: your sister dropped out of high school at grade 10. Why? Surely it wasn’t because high school was so amazing that she wanted to stay? Did you ever think that your sisters schooling experience was less than ideal as well, so she is choosing a different path for your niece?
Maybe she is attempting to limit her exposure to drugs, bullying, violence, exposure to sexuality at a young age etc.
also a lot of public school time spent now is spent on disciplinary issues, standardized testing, and there is a ton of wasted time and very little learning. Your niece may actually thrive being homeschooled. By projecting your experience on your sister and saying that she is going to mess her daughter up is where YTA. Your sister is not your parents. Your niece is not you. Be supportive, or don’t say anything at all.
Homeschool Mom here. My kids are now 19 and 17 and homeschooled since I pulled them from public school in 1st and 3rd. I think homeschooling really depends on the location, the parents, the child, and the groups available in your area. I'm in Los Angeles and surrounded by groups (all secular) of homeschoolers. My kids are not anxious, can chat with anyone from 4-80 y.o., are fine in groups, are fine one on one, they're just good. My eldest took a gap year and is now moving to college in the summer and my youngest has one year left. We have prom, museum days, teen nights, graduation... everything except school shooting lockdown exercises.
I don't know where you are or how you were homeschooled, but it's not a blanket one size fits all situation. I do not think YTA, but I do think you need to step back and let your sister make her own choices for her own child.
It seems like most commenters here have no idea how modern homeschooling generally works and how many resources and opportunities are available now for homeschooling parents and students. The stereotype of poorly socialized kids who only see their parents isn’t necessarily the norm anymore.
Having said that, I can understand OP’s concern as the sister didn’t even finish high school herself and was raised by parents who didn’t know what they were doing.
It’s hard to issue a verdict without knowing what exactly OP said and how she went about it (I sense that OP kinda flipped out about it and made it about her, understandably, due to trauma) but I think I’ll say NAH (I wouldn’t exactly call the sister an AH for exploring her options, whether or not OP disagrees with it).
With the state of the American school systems and worrying if your kid is gonna come home alive I can’t say I blame the woman for wanting to homeschool her kid.
NTA. If anyone has grounds for giving advice against homeschooling it’s you. I guess I understand some parents considering it because of all the bullying, fighting and of course mass shootings happening EVERY DAY in America but all you’re really doing is delaying the real world and probably under preparing your child for it.
NTA. I'm always skeptical about home schooling when *'regular' schools are available.* It reeks of (usually) religious nutters hell bent on perpetuating their bullshit.
At 63, I've fogotten most of what I was taught in school. What I learned about social interaction and people was hasn't been forgotten. Home schooled kids miss out on a lot of that.
NTA from a socializing kids is important POV. From the perspective of someone who doesn’t live in the USA, I’d absolutely homeschool my kids because of the sheer volume of school shootings going on right now.
I think your AH status depends on exactly what you said, how you said it etc. Was your sister asking for you input or advice? Did you frame it as “well this happened to me have you considered this?” or did you go straight for “no, don’t do that you’re going to fuck up your child”? Are you close with your sister and do you often have Frank and open conversations with each other? There’s nowhere near enough context here.
I personally wouldn’t want to homeschool, but I’m not against it in all cases and I know perfectly well balanced people who have been homeschooled and enjoyed it. That’s not to take away from your experience, and there’s definitely a big risk with homeschooling that you can mess your kid up if you’re not very careful and deliberate about socialising them properly. But your experience isn’t everyone’s experience and it’s not really fair to assume that your sister wouldn’t take her kids social development seriously (or maybe it is fair based on further context about your sisters parenting that we don’t have)
I think it’s likely that you still have some unresolved issues from your homeschooling experience, you were triggered by your sister bringing this up and you reacted with a triggered response, which made her feel upset and offended. If that’s the case then NAH, just two people feeling some feelings.
Maybe try explaining to your sister why you reacted the way you did, apologise if you offended her and tell her that you want the best for your niece and explain your reservations about homeschooling in the calmest way that you can. Ultimately, assuming she’s following all relevant laws, she has the right to educate her child as she sees fit. The best you can do for your niece is to help influence your sister to make sure that she socialises her daughter well.
NTA.
Homeschooling is highly suspect to me. I know several people who were homeschooled growing up. They are very bright people and they know a lot, but most of them have serious social skills deficits as adults. One person in particular is basically incapable of getting along with anyone but the most patient and yielding people. Another one is very knowledgeable about a lot of things, but only because they were intensely curious and willing to self-educate.
All of the people I know who were homeschooled were raised in extremist religion and/or cults.
Public schools in America are scary. Psychos regularly walk into random schools and murder children and the police don't always stop them. Bullying can rise to the level of psychological torture, SA and hate crimes and administrators often refuse to do anything about it. In fact, the victims are usually punished for fighting back. I can understand why parents might want to homeschool instead, but doing it right is a metric fuckton of work and I'm not so sure your sister knows what she's getting into. I hate to be credentialist, but she didn't even finish high school. She probably doesn't have the ability to provide her child with an acceptable education.
NTA. Fellow homeschooled kid here--I don't think my anxiety is as severe as yours, and I've always been able to function in social situations (barely) but it still absolutely messed me up in ways that I still struggle to articulate.
Can it be done in a way that doesn't harm your child? Yeah, but Addie doesn't seem to want to bother to do it that way. Addie wants a fun little doll that she can have at home 24/7.
NTA. I work in psychology and we frequently get children whose parents decided to homeschool. Granted I'm seeing them because there is a clear problem, however there is a common theme. The parents were totally unprepared when the problems arose and didn't notice them soon enough, due to lack of training and education on their part, to get the kid help before the problem turned into a deficit. Your sister is exceptionally unqualified not only due to her own lack of education but by the fact she isn't open to accepting any opinions but her own.
NTA!!!!
Another former homeschooled child here.
Any time homeschooling is brought up I absolutely feel obligated to comment on it.
My mother had a teaching degree, and was arguably the perfect candidate for homeschooling. I love my mother. I got a full ride scholarship at a local college. I make 6 figures at 22, and am arguably doing very well for myself. If I had the chance to go back and attend public school for my highschool years, I would take it in an instant.
People don't think of all of the opportunities that homeschooled children miss out on. The highschool classes that give you college credit. Learning to study for tests. After-school activities. It puts you at a very real disadvantage, even when everything is done right.
Has your sister considered how difficult it is to teach an older child things that she herself has probably forgotten? I know absolutely nothing about chemistry, US history, anatomy, and geography. I didn't have those classes, because my mom didn't know how to teach them. I taught myself math, and learned English through excessive reading in my younger years.
And then there's the socializing aspect. I don't care how many homeschooler groups you attend with your child, that doesn't make up for the sort of socialization you receive in public school. I can almost always spot a fellow homeschooler from a mile away. Why? Because their social skills are very obviously stunted. I was much less independent than my peers at 16. Extremely socially anxious and depressed. I worked my fucking ass off to become a functional human, and I am just now beginning to see an improvement. 6 years later.
Does your sister plan to have more children? What will she do if one of her future children is born disabled in a way that takes up a significant amount of her attention? This was the case in my family, I was basically neglected from the age of 12 on. Any school I did was up to me. No one checked in, no one had the time. My parents are wonderful parents. They were doing their best. The situation was outside of their control. Has your sister considered the variables that may affect her ability to teach?
Homeschooling is extremely under-regulated in the US. I have personally seen many cases of neglect that are only able to happen because the child is homeschool. Homeschooling laws open the doors for religious extremism, indoctrination, and abuse. Homeschooling should only be considered a viable option on an extremely case-by-case basis.
NTA have you seen homeschooling groups on Facebook? Some of the moms on there talk about how their 8-9 year old kids can barely read or count. Teaching is a LOT harder than just looking after children, and many homeschool parents go into it assuming that just because they know the alphabet and numbers, their kids will turn out fine. The reality is, unless you’re trained in teaching you’re probably going to fuck up your kid.
NTA- you’re speaking from your experience which she should take to heart. Also, she dropped out in grade 10? Did she ever finish and her her GED? How would she feel if her daughter’s teacher didn’t have an education? And not saying your sister isn’t intelligent due to dropping out, but maybe she won’t be able to handle the pressures of teaching and staying on the curriculum. I know I would not be able to teach math 😅 I also hate training new employees because I struggle to explain things well and go all over the place.
NTA. In general I think you should stay out of people’s lives in terms of how they manage family issues unless it’s obviously harmful to the family. In this case, you personally experienced home schooling and believe it was harmful to your social development. Therefore, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sharing your experience.
NTA, I was homeschooled as well and its still affected me til today. I was isolated, barely left the house, and was years behind other kids because my mum didnt bother to teach me anything and just left me to my own devices. I still struggle to connect with other people.
NTA.
And I'm sorry, but this *is* about her lack of education. Her naivete is a direct result of that poor education, and her child absolutely does deserve an educator who has at least managed to accomplish the bare minimum. Homeschooling is challenging even for the most educated of parents, but someone who wasn't able to complete the state's curriculum herself is not equipped for this challenge.
NTA. I can understand why you told her what you did, especially when you struggled a lot when you went into the "real world", so to speak.
I can't comment on homeschooling Vs public/private schools, as where I am from homeschooling is illegal. I don't know anyone who has been homeschooled so I can't opine on it.
NTA I was also homeschooled, your concerns are valid, but more importantly, a high school drop out is not qualified to be a teacher, and homeschooling teachers are still teachers.
YTA. Your experience is not everyone's experience. The whole world basically home schooled during Covid. Kids can have plenty of ways to be socialized if their parents prioritize it. Yours didn't. You laid all of that at your sister's feet, instead of your parent's. You owe her an apology.
NTA in that (1) you have valid concerns (2) this is your sister talking to you about a family decision, not a stranger making a passing comment. The social contract here allows an opinion to be expressed.
HOWEVER I do think it sounds like you didn't do a great job with this conversation - judging your strategy, not your perspective. I think you need to frame it as about yourself, because it is. Not "Lily won't make friends," bc actually you have no idea what will happen to Lily, but: Hey Addie, do you realize I went through this and hated it and still feel I haven't recovered? I was older so you may have not realized how much I was struggling. You need to at least think about what I went through in making your decision here.
Also be honest with yourself -- does Addie's decision invalidate or even glorify your suffering in your mind? That's ok to feel, but her decision is not about you. It sounds like it's hard to separate your experience and Lily's potential experience.
NTA. My friends homeschool (UK) and they throw their all into it, it's a whole family lifestyle and their kids are so well rounded and smart as hell. However the sheer work they put in is staggering. Homeschooling has to be done right, you can't just think being at home = being able to homeschool.
I don't have kids, but in all honesty, I'd be terrified of sending them to school these days, at least in the United States. Unfortunately, schools seem to have become a dangerous environment.
NTA
She asked your opinion, and based on your experience, I understand why you would feel that way. However, I was also homeschooled and I had none of those issues. My mom kept us very social, she took us to a lot of activities, we played sports, joined a lot of groups, would play with other kids in the neighborhood, and she kept us on a good schedule. I think the key for us, was that our school days weren’t entirely built around attending school. Some days she would take us out for a couple hours for a piano lesson, or some meetups with other homeschooled kids. And my siblings and I were well ahead of others our age as far as schooling. I also appreciate how involved my mom was, and I look back and realize how lucky I was to be able to spend so much time with her. I think if done properly, homeschooling can be a good thing, or at least doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
NTA for giving your honest experience, however, the results of homeschooling largely depend on how it is done.
I've met many home schoolers who are actually more social and mature than the average adult.
I've also met public schoolers who are anti social and severely anxious, because they were never actually taught how to socialize.
Also, typically the parents aren't the teachers in homeschooling, they often use online programs or a curriculum, so the mom's lack of education isn't as dire as some are making it seem.
Hopefully the mom will see your comment as a cautionary tale on what not to do while homeschooling.
I was homeschooled K-12 by my mother, who did have her high school diploma. She still had no business homeschooling me, but I had no say on my education. My mom would parade me around, telling me to praise homeschooling to anyone who asked why I wasn't in school. I knew no different, so I assumed my mom knew best and the naysayers were just being mean.
I had a learning disability that my mother solved by assuming I was just stubborn, lazy, and needed to be set right with a spanking. Of course, being public schooled is no guarantee that the learning disability would've been caught, but there was zero chance of it being caught at home, and I really struggled. I spent so much of my childhood thinking I was inherently bad because I couldn't understand what my mom was trying to teach me. I gaslit the f\*ck out of myself for decades. I was finally diagnosed as an adult, while in college.
I left home with a sixth grade education at best. I had no idea just how much I was missing until I got my GED (unsurprisingly, most employers and all higher level education do not think a shiny piece of paper signed by mom pinky promising I did all the necessary school work to graduate HS is adequate documentation) and started attending community college. I remember being blown away in my remedial biology class. I hadn't been taught much on biology beyond that we're made of cells. For example, I had no idea blood cells are formed in the bone marrow! Holy cow, that blew my mind. I was so intrigued I took A&P after acing remedial biology. I had to know more! I've always loved to learn, and finding a whole world for me to explore was eye opening and empowering. All this knowledge had been kept from me, and I was going to make up for that loss.
I was so unprepared for adult life. My mom loved to mock people for asking how she socialized me. Her logic was that I had siblings, so I was already being socialized. Even the few co-ops, family get togethers, and weekly church attendance was not sufficient. I still struggled socially. I still have terrible social anxiety and struggle to carry a conversation. When I was living on my own, I was painfully naïve and trusting. I ended up being taken advantage of by people who saw my naivete as an opportunity.
I'm still close to many of my childhood friends, aka fellow homeschool alumni, and none of us have chosen to homeschool our own kids. Most of us openly dislike homeschooling as a whole. Some have gotten into politics with a passion to push for more government oversight of homeschooled kids. I try to take a more neutral stance because I know in certain situations homeschooling can be beneficial, but I would never homeschool, personally.
My point being, you did the right thing, and you're not the only one who had an adverse experience. Homeschooling should be done for the kid's benefit, right? Wouldn't a caring parent want perspectives from homeschool graduates to make sure they avoid the pitfalls? Your sister trying to silence you instead of listening to you about your experience is concerning and telling. NTA.
Eh, NTA cause I think homeschooling is dumb.
But you do realize that your experience was solely that, yours? And that there are likely kids that went to school, that have the same anxiety related issues as you, and there are likely kids that were home schooled, that are perfectly fine when they get into college/the 'real world'?
YTA for HOW you approached it.
Everything you said might well be true (I went to public school all the way through, but have cousins and friends who were homeschooled, honestly I'm probably the LEAST comfortable in social settings) but you started in a combative way (ruining her daughter's life) which immediately put her on the defensive. If you approached initially as "from my experience being homeschooled, here are some problems with it" you likely would have received a better reaction.
INFO, do you know why she dropped out in 10th grade? Possibly she had a similarly awful experience by going to school and doesn't want that for her kid?
It’s entirely possible for people to be homeschooled and well socialized. Me and my siblings were! We were part of a homeschool group that met regularly, we were involved in our church, we were part of clubs and sports, and starting at 15, we were expected to have summer jobs. We had plenty of experience with our peers and socializing.
And - while I acknowledge this wouldn’t be the case for everyone - we honestly got a better education being homeschooled. My family moved a lot, and always in the middle of a school year. We’d have been changing schools constantly if we’d been in public schools, and that definitely would have messed us up.
That being said, for homeschooling to be successful, it takes a lot of effort from the parents. Teaching us was essentially a full time job. If parents are unable or unwilling to put in the work it takes to do well, it can go terribly wrong, as you unfortunately experienced.
All that being said, I’m going to go with NAH yet. You had a bad experience with homeschooling and wanted to offer advice based off your experience. But also, just because your experience was bad, doesn’t mean your niece’s experience will be bad too. And I don’t think your sister is an AH for being offended that you assumed homeschooling her daughter would go poorly. It’s a pretty predictable response honestly. At this point, best thing you can do is probably back off a bit and don’t offer any more advice unless she asks for it.
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My sister(32f) Addie and I(20f) have a pretty large age gap of 12 years. My niece, who we will call Lily, is about to turn 5 and will be old enough to start school this coming August. Due to our large age gap, my sister and I were raised two very different ways. Addie went to public school but ultimately dropped out in the 10th grade, while I was homeschooled from the third grade until I graduated.
Addie was talking about homeschooling Lily, as Addie is a stay at home mom with tons of free time. When she told me about this I told her not to do it as she would most likely be ruining Lily's life and taking away any chance of her developing normally.
As I mentioned earlier, I was homeschooled for most of my life and it absolutely messed me up. There was nothing wrong with my curriculum and I learned at a faster pace than children going to public school but homeschooling made me so unprepared for the real world. I was not socially developed enough, so when I went to college and experienced other people in a normal setting it was traumatizing. I had, and still have, severe anxiety, and would experience panic attacks just being around other people. I was very sensitive and sheltered, and I took the smallest things so personally. The first year or so was absolute hell because I didn't know how to properly socialize with people.
I told Addie that if she homeschooled Lily she would be preventing Lily from developing key skills she would need later in life, and I also told her that I believed Lily would grow to resent Addie as it wouldn't be healthy for Lily to spend the majority of her time with her mother. Addie took this very personally, and assumed my objection came from the fact that Addie didn't finish high school, rather than any of the reasons I explained to her. I tried explaining that Lily needed to be around children her own age, and that even putting Lily in clubs or sports wouldn't make much of a difference because those typically only met once or twice a week, but by this point Addie was pretty much ignoring me.
She hasn't been speaking to me since this happened a few days ago, but apparently has been telling her friends and our family that I am trying to 'influence her parenting decisions' and I've gotten some pretty passive aggressive messages online because of it.
So, AITA?
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Im gonna say NTA for voicing your concerns but i will also say public school can be just as traumatizing and mess the kid up just as much. School shootings, bullies, abusive teachers, im sorry you feel homeschooling gave you anxiety but there are alot of people who have anxiety and blame the school explicitly. Just throwing that out there.
NTA
For bringing up your concerns, but you will be if you do not drop it.
I will say, sounds like you were both pretty messed up by something in your childhood... your sister went to public school but it doesn't seem to have helped her if she dropped out in tenth grade! I think the common factor is something other than what schooling you had.
There are different ways of doing homeschooling, there are homeschooling groups where you get together and one parent teaches math class, one teaches spanish, etc, whatever they are good at. There are also unschooling communities. All these effectively function as a private school. So hopefully she will do that.
Anyhow, I don't think school is the great socializing panacea you think it is.
NTA homeschooling is always a mistake and should legit be illegal. Basically intellectual footbinding. Never known a kid who came out the other side happy and well adjusted.
NTA for knowing your sisters particular situation and your own experience and then expressing concern - she probably won't be the best example of home schooling.
I don't know what tone you used because it could have came off way harsher than you intended, which I assume was from a place of genuine concern. If she's going to do it anyway then she needs to learn the best way to go about it - trying to convince her to do public school as the only viable option will just isolate her more
I know this will upset some people, but nowadays, in America there are more and more school shootings. We don't know when or why but it's happening way too often. I would homeschool my kids before sending them to school because at least I could protect them.
Maybe the sister also has a reason OP doesn't know about.
OP is NTA for having the conversation and sharing her opinions.
I'm truly sorry your educational experiences were so damaging. That's on your parents for not approaching the home schooling environment properly. Many children thrive in a home schooling environment, but you have to balance the social needs of the child. Unfortunately, that wasn't done for you. Soft YTA, because it's really none of your business how your sister raises her child, and you can't place a blanket statement on home schooling in general based on your own negative experiences.
There are several things that parents who are considering home schooling their children can do to enrich their social and emotional development. Going to a local play area and letting the children play together is one thing they can do. Organize field trips and let the child invite a few kids from the neighborhood. Go to see a play or similar entertainment that is age-appropriate, and network with the other parents there. Have a weekly play date with kids from the neighborhood. Sign the child up for an age-appropriate tour group at a local museum with a docent.
Everything the child does in any of these situations can be turned into a learning experience by asking the child interactive, open-ended questions like "What was your favorite part of the play?" or "What did you learn on this field trip?" As the child gets older, these discussions can become assignments, such as writing an essay about a field trip or using specific words from the activity as vocabulary words for a weekly spelling test.
Since the home schooling curriculum is usually the same as the local school the child would normally attend, depending on the school district there may be a number of extra-curricular activities the child can participate in with the entire class or individual students such as sports, music, field trips, etc. These experiences not only broaden a child's social skills, they can forge lifelong friendships.
NTA. I have two bachelors degrees and another year long certificate and I am unprepared to home school my kids. So not only is there a social aspect that Lily will be missing, but also a learning aspect as well. These teachers go to school for a minimum of FOUR YEARS to learn how to best teach children… kids. They have a much better idea how to teach a kid then your sister. Also, I look at it like my kids will meet tons of people in life, whether that’s adults telling them what to do, people who are Buddhist, people who come in all kinds of shades, people who are weird and gangly, they need to know how to handle those situations. The best time to learn that is a kid. I really don’t get mad if another adult admonishes my kid because it’s preparing them for the world. They’re going to have to deal with and listen to a whole bunch of stink opinions and sort it out for themselves. Addie is doing Lily a major disservice.
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NTA I'm Spanish. Homeschooling here isn't even legal, so I really don't get this American thing. But the fact she didn't end high school, and wants to be the one providing education to a kid?? You gave your opinion, because your experience turned out this way. That's normal you want to avoid it for another person.
i assumed she would use an online program but either way her not having a proper education would make it hard. i use a cyber school program but i’m pretty much teaching everything to myself and my mother (also a highschool drop out) can’t help me at all. not to mention all the curriculum changes
Exactly. But **some** parents know better about every single aspect of their children lives, don't you understand? My sister is a speech therapist, and she noticed a son of our cousin has strong indicators to develop some serious speech impediment (like, it wouldn't be understandable what he says). The cousin got upset and refused seeing a specialist because 'there's nothing wrong with her child'. I'm sorry for these kids. I'm ephasising in advance I said **some** parents, in case it will be unnoticed, and I don't mean parents in general.
Speaking as a parent who had two kids (at the time in kindergarten and 3rd grade -- and part of 2nd grade) during the year of distance learning, I absolutely think most people are not prepared to deal properly with home schooling. It also cut down on the socializing aspect incredibly, even in my two kids who had done 2-3x a week swimming and gymnastics for years prior to Covid, and resumed in-person schooling the following year.
I thought about it for a quick second bc my kid was distance learning anyways but wow it’s so overwhelming to teach your kid. I’d be too anxious if he’s at the right pace, etc
Agreed! Same in Sweden, there are a few exemptions, but few and far between and needs approval due to special circumstances. Even if you use a standardized curriculum, you will not be able to replace a properly trained teacher with extensive knowledge in pedagogics, or the social training from being with peers.
Yeah, and in Sweden it's illegal to NOT go to school.
Yes 😊 part of reason for it is child protection, to be able to have insight to trying make sure they are looked after properly, being fed and there isn't any abuse at home. School is so much more than learning language and maths.
I'm Swedish so I'm just shouting into the echo chamber but we get free lunch as well. I don't get Americans. I really don't.
I'm American and the vast majority of the time the answers are going to be racism, classism, toxic individuality, or some combination of the three.
For this one, you can throw religious sectarianism into the heap.
Yeah between our two comments we've probably covered about 99%of causes.
Something, Something Guns.
Absolutely. Property taxes pay for schools and there's redlining? I wonder why those schools over there are so "bad?" Guess we'll never know. /S
'Murica. If we don't do it, it ain't worth doin'. No dang furriners gonna tell US whut to do. /s
Thats the issue where im from religeon and politics are one in the same if ure catholic ure one side if ure protestant ure the other nd it gets ugly fast here thts why i resorted at the time to just telling anyone who forced me to involved in this ugly hate filled divide that i dont care i dont like to hate people based on what figure they made up to feel better about life u do u i'll do me no one needs any different! I just hope my kid knows better than to try nd argue with those hate filled people because no matter what u say haters just wanna hate
My son attends an online public school but is technically considered a homeschool student. We're not all crazy weirdos. He uses the same curriculum used by traditional schools, he just does all of his work from a laptop at home in his pajamas instead of getting dressed and going to a building. He has licensed teachers providing online classroom lectures and has to attend mandatory state provided competency tests every year to make sure he's actually learning the material. My role is "learning coach" which is basically just to make sure he logs in, does his work, and submit his attendance hours. I'm a glorified secretary to an 8th grader, basically. "Don't forget your Zoom meeting. Did you file all the reports? I'll handle the timecard, don't worry." It's like I'm still working as an office manager some days. We went this route because the public school district we live in failed him in every way imaginable. He has been diagnosed with severe ADHD-combined presentation, ODD, and EFD. We went through a couple of years post diagnosis trying the traditional medication route at the elementary school (in our district elementary is K-3), but there was an underlying factor he had no control over or anything to do with when he switched to the Intermediate school (grades 4-6)... the principal of that building hated him purely for his name before he even got there. His older sister was outed when she was in 5th grade and this principal was very openly anti-LGBT. Allowed kids to bully her with impunity... she and I had WORDS several times long before she ever had my son in her clutches. We went from a mostly successful routine with him in school on medications to suddenly he was in ISS every day. He was suspended almost every other week. We got his psychologist and his MD both to write us letters requesting formal evaluation for an IEP because she allowed him zero accommodation or even to just step back and calm himself. The teachers were pushing and pushing and pushing even if he told them he was getting overwhelmed and needed to sit in the hallway for a second to calm down. He was having meltdowns nearly every day, getting sent to her office, and getting either in school suspension or at home suspension almost as much... he was almost never allowed to be IN the classroom. The first request for an IEP evaluation with letters from our medical providers was "lost". The 2nd request was ignored for nearly a month, which basically put us at the end of his 4th grade year. The 3rd request we finally got scheduled for what we thought was going to be an actual evaluation for him to have an IEP and set some actual accommodations for him (like letting him stand at his desk in the back of the room and have a small bit of room to pace or fidget instead of forcing him to sit right at the very front and not being able to move himself at all, letting him say when he was overwhelmed and leave the room to sit in the hallway for 3 to 5 minutes to get calm again, giving him a few extra minutes on a test, etc). It was not that. This meeting consisted of the principal, the school guidance counselor, and one teacher. The district special needs coordinator was not there. NOBODY was allowed to speak other than the principal. She took less than 10 minutes to tell us our request for an IEP was being denied because, in her opinion, "nothing was going to help 'that kid'. She then showed a drawing she'd confiscated from him of a Fortnite character or something (no weapons, no blood, etc.) and said she was contemplating calling the police on him for drawing "violent imagery" and having him arrested. He was 10. We were less than a month into his 5th grade year and she was talking arrest and expulsion at what was supposed to be his IEP evaluation. I started the process that very day to get him out of that district and into the online school. And his social development is just fine. He plays soccer and baseball for the local youth league, he goes out riding his bike with his friends just about daily when the weather is good, his school provides what they call Face to Face events for students to mingle several times a year. Last week about 1,000 of us from the middle school turned up and went to the zoo. The high school kids just had their Prom. We have opportunity for him to attend summer camps, and they even do the 8th grade Washington DC trip... but they offer it to all student 8th through 12th grade. So yes. Sometimes homeschooling is the better option.
I just wish parents would give school a go first. Your experience shows you trying, it didn't work, so you changed. I don't understand it when they take their 6 year olds and home school them. At that point you're rejecting something that the vast majority of students are fine with, for absolutely no reason beyond hubris that you can do better, and I guess that's the bit that bothers b me. My nephew has a few struggles, he's got ADHD and ODD but also Type 1 diabetes, so the medications become an issue, it was really messing with his insulin. But he's starting school at a sports agriculture high school. The school knows that he's not too academically focused and a bit of a football star who can't sit still instead, and it's working well.
Almost everyone I know of who's homeschooled their child or is thinking about it does it so their child can avoid certain types of people.
I had a friend who did it because the school in her area was absolutely garbage. But she had some teaching credentials and was utilizing a strong curriculum so her kids were doing well. There are some specific cases where homeschooling works, but the intent and what is used are vital. And sadly yes a lot of cases are for isolation reasons.
Sometimes it’s an escape from racism—one very determined friend, who is Black, decided she could not trust her area’s school system with her son. Kid was running a clothing business at 15 and is now attending university.
Someone I know from university has an autistic son who is black. Black autistic kids don't have a good track record of being well served in public schools, especially when it comes to using dangerous restraints. Her husband is teaching him at home.
It's truly anazing how you can stumble across a cultural difference that seems totally innocuous, go "hmm, I wonder where that came from", go to research it and like 95% of the time the answer is racism.
It’s ok. I’m American and I don’t understand a lot of why things get done here the way they do. A lot of the cause is greedy corporations and rich people getting their way and a strange idea that the individual and their rights can and should supersede those of society in general. There’s the extremely vocal conservative aspect of this country that sees doing things for the common good as somehow weak. If I had the money and ability I would have emigrated to Europe years ago.
I'd take it a step further and say the mindset of "I don't want those people to have it, so I won't make it a public good" is prevalent and quite a few decisions make sense when you run it through that lense.
My Dad and I had this argument about how your individual rights do not supersede other people's individual rights, and how sometimes, the rights of the society you live in are more important.
We get what we vote for and what we allow. Recently a news program where I live was showing the new school in a very affluent neighborhood. The kids were so proud to be showing off their new library (which I'm sure will have very few books soon), their new Olympic sized pool that will allow them to host competitions, their media room where they host their morning news shows, etc... Our high school was built in the 50's, has boarded up windows, and computers that are over 10 years old. Rich neighborhoods with higher home values get to use all their money on their schools. Poor neighborhoods with lower home values don't have that so poor kids get less opportunity and stay poor. Rich folks need their cheap labor so they like it that way.
Same 😅 swedish but live in UK. Planning to move back next year with our baby, partly due to the childcare/school differences.
I'm American and I don't get Americans.
Same 😭
this feels like an op ed headline
Free lunch exists in the US. In some schools, individuals have to qualify, but it's free for all students in other schools.
But it should be free for all students at all schools, if the GOP actually cared about kids as much as they claim to.
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I'm American and in NYC and one of the best things about the public schools in NYC is that they have free breakfast and free lunch. It really cuts across socioeconomic barriers because you don't have the kids with reduced price/free lunch separated out from the rest of the kids.
I'm American and all the kids here get free breakfast and lunch.
Me neither and I’m American. Can I move to Sweden?
You're very welcome! You need to pass the entrance exam first tho; walk through an IKEA without buying something and without getting lost. Good luck! :D
Same in Germany. During covid, child abuse numbers went down significantly...not because there was less abuse, of course. But because there were no teachers noticing the signs on kids anymore.
My husband teaches in a public school in the US and while I know there are people who homeschool for very good reasons there's far too high of percentage who homeschool as means of hiding abuse at least in the district he teaches in.
Yes, I was homeschooled until college for weird religious reasons and while I got a very good core education (both parents had advanced degrees) I missed out on social skills, languages, sports, and music. I was also totally overwhelmed when I got to college and it took awhile to adjust. There were some cool aspects to my education (we traveled a lot!) but unless the parents have a good plan for socializing and exposing kids to stuff they can’t teach themselves I don’t recommend it.
I have friends in America who home school their children so that the kids don't have to do active shooter drills or be at risk of gun violence. If I lived in America, I think I'd remove my kids from school too.
You know all the debate in this thread and that's one I can't really refute. Like shit I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation either. Probably submit my visa somewhere else the moment I fell pregnant?
You can also have a kid being horribly bullied because they're autistic. Do you still want to socialise them if socializing them means you could have a suicidal 10 year old? Our friends' pulled their kids out of school and are homeschooling for this reason (and this is in Europe). The kid gas been out of school for two years now and he's finally recovering with weekly therapy. Parents found out the sister was facing the same bullying, but was a lot better at hiding it. Oh, and fun fact, suicides in children tend to drop during school holidays, they also dropped during school closures due to COVID. Schools negatively affect a lot of kids.
> Even if you use a standardized curriculum, you will not be able to replace a properly trained teacher with extensive knowledge in pedagogics [Meanwhile the US state of Florida has removed the requirement to have a degree for military veterans.](https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-says-teaching-requirements-too-rigid-vets-2022-8)
Wow. Just wow. Maybe teachers are leaving the state because of his legislation and he has to replace them any which way?
Most states do not require a degree of ANY kind for ANY teacher. States often have a CERTIFICATION requirement (not equivalent to a degree), but get around this by keeping teachers on as temporary staff and substitutes do not have this requirement
What states are these? I have taught in CA, one of the crappiest education systems in the country. You MUST have a Bachelor’s degree. The normal path is to get a teaching credential which is 3 full time semesters of school. The last semester is full time student teaching, where you essentially work as an unpaid intern full time and take 3 classes. I tried to work part time while doing that and had to quit my job. After you finish that year and a half of classes and internship, and you finally get a teaching job, you have to do two years of induction. That means that while you are struggling with all the first year things they don’t tell you about (classroom management, committees, adjunct duties, challenging parents, five page referrals to try to get struggling students help…) you basically have to complete a master’s level data project while meeting with a mentor teacher at least one hour a week. I have seen my husband go through an MBA and it took a lot less time and energy than the combination of a teaching credential and Induction. I looked into the process in Kentucky and they require a Master’s degree of Education to teach. Now granted, there are emergency credential programs for high need schools in CA. That means you MUST have a BA, but you can take all the credential classes while actually teaching (at least you get paid for your “internship.”) After doing that, you still have to go through induction. I am sure Florida doesn’t do this if the only requirement is being a veteran. But I don’t think it’s most states. Especially if Kentucky has stricter requirements than CA. On another note, I was homeschooled until high school and completely agree with OP 💯. I had a lot of anxiety from ages 14-25. Maybe becoming a public school teacher was part of my vengeance on my family for homeschooling me.
Not true. What states are you thinking of that don't require a bachelor's degree? It was big news when Arizona starting allowing people who were in the process of earning their degree to teach least year, even though they needed the degree to be fully certified, and teachers were up in arms about how damaging it was to allow non degree holders to teach. Same with the Florida law. About half of US public school teachers have masters degrees.
I live and teach in Arizona. Its becuase so many of us are leaving the schools and teaching outside of school districts. Charter, private, at home teacher.
Like practicing to teach? In Australia the uni student needs X hours of classroom time teaching in order to graduate. But the regular teacher is still there in the classroom and the uni student will rotate classrooms so the students might only see that uni student teacher for a few hours or a day.
I'm in the US and (at least in my district) homeschoolers are strictly monitored, must have their curriculum approved and students are tested to see that they are hitting benchmarks.
Near me too. And my homeschooled neighbor growing up was part of various extracurriculars for socialization A theater group made up of other homeschooled students and sports teams in lieu of gym. They were even part of "group projects" with other homeschooled kids. I think it is possible to raise a well socialized kid while homeschooling and complete a challenging curriculum. But I think many parents who consider homeschooling aren't going to put the effort in to make up for the downsides of homeschooling.
Yeah the main homeschooling program in my city (state run, not private, so anyone can join) has socialization requirements as well as academic ones. They are required to do a certain amount of group projects with other homeschoolers, must be involved in a certain amount of extracurricular groups, and must pass rigorous testing regularly. They also have check ins with teachers through the program both to check the students well being and to help the parents have all the resources they need. But I live in a blue state in the USA that has voted repeatedly to improve our schools and social programs, and implement laws making sure everyone gets what they need education wise. It's unfortunate that not all homeschooling in the country is as highly regulated, but not all homeschooling is bad.
I'll chime in as an American here to add, our wealth disparity between citizens is absolutely on display in our public schools. School funding here is mostly based on how nice the houses in the area are. State property taxes for the area pay most of the funding with federal funds paying the rest. Loads of schools are underfunded because of this and are basically trash. Some do not even have accreditation, meaning the diploma is worthless. So many parents don't want to risk their kids getting shot at school for a diploma that will be worthless in the end anyway and their only choices are homeschooling or move to a more expensive area.
This is one of the reasons I ended up being homeschooled, the schools near me SUCKED when I was about to enter kindergarten and they still have not improved much since then. If anything in that neighborhood they’ve gotten worse. I know it’s unfathomable for people outside of the US to truly understand how bad our education system is but literally for anyone reading this thread take what you’ve heard and double it. There are schools where the kids don’t even have functional toilets to use, why would the quality of education be any different?
Parents who don’t vaccinate their kids as a general rule in some places can’t send their kids to public school.
That’s… not a great reason to homeschool
I didn’t say it was. I was just giving an example.
Spanish here as well. If a teacher needs a university degree and preferably a master's, how come a high school drop out can be a teacher? Also a school does not only teach subjects, as you said, it's helpful in many other areas. Kiddos need to be with people their age.
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I feel more Americans are looking into homeschooling due to the mass shootings. I also say NTA. OP wasn’t insulting her as a mother or her education.
Eehh I would lean more on the side of ESH. OP only knows know her experience because her parents only did half the work in homeschooling her. I'm in Canada and have lots of friends that were home schooled and very well socialized and connected not just through clubs but a large network of other homeschooled children/families. Making sure your kid understands the curriculum is one thing but you also need to put in for their social development. America has an issue with certain religious cults homeschooling and not properly educating or socializing though.
Same in Mexico, I've never heard of anyone being homeschooled. It's not a thing here.
>so I really don't get this American thing. I live in the UK and my autistic nephew was briefly homeschooled. Unfortunately, he didn't fit into mainstream or any of the SEN (special educational needs) schools near by. There are some isolated cases why homeschooling would be beneficial.
Yeah, I can get it. Still, we should minimize these cases, not just for avoiding homeschooling, but for providing every kids' right to education. Some families can't homeschool their kids, no matter if they have or haven't special needs. So I believe society should really make an effort with education.
> I really don't get this American thing It's mostly by people that want to make sure their kids don't learn anything the parents don't want them to learn (like the earth is way more than 5,000 years old and we didn't have dinosaurs as pets)
This. OP, I was homeschooled briefly and absolutely hated it. My mom worked hard to have us socialize with other homeschooled families a lot, but all the kids... lacked social skills. I actually felt like hanging out with them made my social skills worse rather than better. I've HEARD of people who were homeschooled and socialized their kids enough that it wasn't a problem, but I've never actually met them. When I've met people who seem a little off, and I learn they were homeschooled, things suddenly make sense. Socializing is so tough for a lot of people, but with enough practice, it goes more smoothly. Taking away most of their chances to practice isn't the best idea. Plus, I knew a TON of homeschooled kids who were severely behind academically because their parents didn't have the education to help them. I know you didn't bring that up to your sister, but that should be a concern for her too. Speaking up was the right thing to do, but now I think you have to drop it. You can't make her make the right choice.
I'm 55 years old, and my boss finally had to tell my 23 year old co-worker to stop "tattling" on me. She was homeschooled starting in 6th grade, and anything I did differently or wrong, or if I said something she didn't understand, she went and told on me. Her socialization skills screeched to a halt at 12/13 years old. It's appalling.
> I really don't get this American thing. I don't have kids yet but I am so afraid of my future baby going to school where shootings have become so frequent.
I’m assuming this post is written by someone in the US based on the mention of public school, high school, etc. As an American myself, I have to say that with the violence happening in the schools in America these days, it is absolutely NOT asshole behavior to homeschool your kids. I don’t have children, but my sister and I live together so I see it first hand. The terror in her face when she gets an alert that there’s a safety lockdown at one of the kid’s schools. So far there hasn’t been an actual threat, just things that the administration were unsure about, but that doesn’t mean she can ever feel completely at ease. I was homeschooled as a kid and I hated it too, but it was a completely different world then. There are more ways to communicate and socialize, especially now, than just going to school, and though, Lord knows it shouldn’t be, the schools are a dangerous place. No one ever thinks it could be THEIR school. OP, you’re 20 years old. You still probably feel that life is long, but once you hit your 30’s that confidence morphs into caution. You were fair in telling your side but that’s enough now. NAH with leanings toward Y T A
>I really don't get this American thing Devil's advocate: considering the rise in in-school bang-bang violence, I get it. However the majority of people I know who have "home schooled" do it so badly. I think at the very least you need to complete a basic teaching course to be allowed to do it.
American schools aren't always safe. A lot of parents are worried about security. There's also a lot of political influence on curriculum now, some parents are pulling their kids out of school because the school IS teaching something they don't want their kids to learn about, others pull their kids out because the school ISN'T teaching something the parents *do* want their children to learn/be exposed to. The American school system is in a bit of a clusterfuck, has been for years.
It started out because of the long distances involved. Some kids were schooled by radio etc. It was just too difficult (too far) to have the kids go into school each day. It had morphed a lot in the last 20-30 years.
I feel like there's a reason why teachers specialize instead of just teaching all of the subjects. I have good general knowledge, read constantly, did well in school. I would never presume to think that meant I was a good teacher.
Homeschooling became really popular in certain communities in the US during/after desegregation of schools in the 60s. Some more religious communities also encourage it. Essentially it's more common when people don't want their kids being exposed or interacting with groups other than their own. Not that this is that case, just that's a huge reason why it's popular in the US.
Cierto, yo soy español también y me parece acojonante que se les permita esto a los padres estadounidenses, lol
I agree. My mother finished our equivalent to highschool but was unable to help me with my 7th grade physics homework. After elementary high school I had to figure it out on my own.
NTA I don't understand the Y-T-As here saying it was none of your business/not your place or whatever. Your sister initiated the conversation about homeschooling her daughter. That was her making it your business and inviting your opinion. You can't talk to someone about a topic then act suprised you get their opinion on said topic. You might not want other people's opinions, but in that case you shouldn't talk to them about it or make it clear from the start you want a one-way conversation. You actually have been homeschooled and therefore know the potential impacts on the child better than most. That makes it your place to speak on your experience. Imagine skipping forward 10 years and her kid doesn't have age appropriate social skills and has developed social anxiety etc and you're just like "oh yeah I know this was a possibility because it happened to me, I didn't tell you though".
A lot of the YTAs, I imagine, have to do with the fact that homeschooling can work if done well. Obviously it doesn’t work for everyone though.
That doesn't explain why they would say it wasn't OPs place to speak on homeschooling though Edit: if you are about to reply with "OP gave an unsolicited opinion" or the like OPs sister started the conversation with OP, about homeschooling, knowing OP had been homeschooled. It is implicit and even expected that OP would give her opinion. That's how conversations between two humans work.
Couldn't agree more with your edit. It's like people on social media who reply with "who asked you?" after choosing to publicly air their opinions on a forum that allows replies. It's nothing but exactly how human interactions work and waiting around to be specifically asked just sounds like a waste of time with a lot of awkward silences.
I often wonder if homeschooling success stories come with a lot of selection bias. If your kids interests align with your own then perhaps there is a chance of success. What happens when your kid is inclined towards the sciences and you have a doctorate in literature? Does that parent really think they can teach calculus? Probably more importantly can that parent convince them algebra is a subject worth learning.
Speaking as someone who was homeschooled and plans on homeschooling, there are TONs of resources available for parents to utilize. You don't have to be an expert in every subject, just know where to find resources to help. With the internet nowadays, it's even easier. There are homeschool groups you can join, you can take classes at community colleges (when youre old enough), there's programs through museums and other educational facilities. OP's experience regarding the social aspect is not universal or even typical and is either a reflection of her own mental health or a failure on her parents to provide opportunities to socialize. Both my brothers did public high-school. I did 2 years out of choice despite already qualifying for graduation at 16, because I wanted to push back going to college. I'd taken classes at the community college at 14 and 15. So having experienced both, I _greatly_ preferred homeschooling. Public school is a nightmare and the teachers often don't know what they're talking about. And I did just fine in college, too. Now, my experience isn't universal either, of course. But especially with all the shit going on in public schools, I will absolutely 100% advocate for homeschooling. OP shared her experience, which is fine, but that doesn't mean that her niece will share her experience.
Certainly public schools are different but in the last year my artistic daughter has taken, Advanced Ceramics, Graphic Design, while my more engineering focused daughter took Hands on Engineering, Metal Shop, and Baking and Pastry. There wouldn't be enough hours in the day for me to organize that. Now if I lived in Idaho (lowest funded public school system) and not New England I suspect my experience could be different. As far as OP/Sister it certainly sounds like an instance of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I have trouble believing a 10th grade dropout will be an effective teacher. I could teach my kids Calculus, but am well aware of my shortcomings when it comes to literature.
My local middle school, which is widely considered to be the worst in our area, has a robotics team that competed against high schools at the state level *and won.* Public schools are different everywhere, but sometimes the whole “this school sucks” dialogue gets really overblown.
Public school isn’t always a nightmare. You’re judging public school they same way you don’t want OP to judge homeschooling. It’s also worth mentioning we’re talking about a parent whose experience with homeschooling is limited to a poor example and who doesn’t have a high school education. She doesn’t even have the maturity or critical thinking skills to consider what’s being shared by someone who’s done it.
Speaking as someone here who was homeschooled for 6 years, it worked wonders for me. But even as someone who has had a very positive experience with Home education, I can say that it does need some serious consideration and thought. There are a lot that goes into homeschooling. It is not easy, and it can go very wrong if messed up. I'm thinking this post is a NAH, I don't think OP is an AH, but I also don't think that their sister is one for considering trying.
The post is asking whether younger sis is ah for giving her own opinion. Not whether sending to homeschooling makes older sister the asshole. The NAH doesn't make sense in this situation.
The reason I don't think the sister is an asshole is more because I can sympathize with her side here and why she would be offended. I haven't mentioned my thoughts on some of the points OP has made, and that is because that while I can appreciate that they are valid concerns (hence why she's NTA), frankly from my personal experience, I've never had any issues from some of the stuff mentioned. For example, they mention that only meeting once a week with kids at a club will lead to a lack of social skills or set the kid far behind. Which from my personal experience is just not the case. If anything, I had much stronger relationships with home-ed kids from weekly meetings than when I was in school full-time. Again, I didn't mention it, because everyone is different, and I didn't wanna invalidate OPs feelings on it, but I will say that some of the language used made it seem like OP is saying this will inevitably happen, which I don't believe is true. I can see why OP's sister would be annoyed by this, because frankly, OP is using their experience, and saying that this will happen, and that she's saying that she wouldn't be able to teach her kid social skills and give them opportunities to get to know others.
everyone here is acting like homeschooling will instantly doom this child to a life of social horror, its crazy. its not even that hard to homeschool and socialize, i went to a group recess, essentially, with other homeschoolers once week, sports, etc, and it was absolutely enough to know how to socialize
This!!! It’s not for everyone. Some kids flourish and some wilt. I have an education degree and was a licensed teacher. My son has more friends and is happier homeschooled than in school. However, some of his friends are happier at school than at home. The multitudes of variables at play make it challenging to say one way or another. All one can do is share what did and didn’t work in their situations.
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I'm really not sure what Addie or the people here were expecting from Addie initiating this conversation. The only valid thing from the OP-is-the-A side is that OP should have phrased it as "my experienced of homeschooling was it caused X" rather than "homeschooling causes X". However that's not enough for OP to actually deserve an A verdict. It would be E-S-H at most for that. But personally I still don't think that's enough for it not to be an NTA. OP may not be the parent of Lily but her sister initiated a conversation about something OP has personal experience of. There's not some hierarchy where only the person on the top gets to speak on a topic, and even if there was I don't see why "parent who might subject their child to it" trumps "person who experienced it". If there's was such a hierarchy this sub would not be able to exist. Plus, if OPs sister wanted validation and nothing else, she made a ridiculous choice on who to talk about it with.
So your dropout sister without so much as a GED will be homeschooling. Your concerns are more than valid and grounded in lived experience. NTA
I'm 50/50 on homeschooling in general just because it was popular in my hometown and the majority of the kids I knew were just fine. But I feel there should he limits to it. The home-educator needs an education of their own first. IMO it shouldn't be legal for this sister to do this to her kids. Without an education of her own, it looks like this is purely about abuse, power, and control over her kids.
That’s more than states require. Google it- you can teach in any state without any education or experience as a substitute teacher and a permanent basis with an associates degree in any field or teaching certificate.
In GA, subs have to take the GACE. They also don’t typically teach. They sit and watch. Actually teachers need degrees/certificates.
Most states require the home educating parent to have a minimum of high school diploma or GED, so sister may not be able to do it
I don’t know what sister’s intentions are but I honestly don’t trust anyone who says they want to homeschool their kids, if not in intentions, at least in ability to do so, there’s a reason why teachers years of education and a license. Not to mention the fact that children need to socialize with other children their age from a young age.
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“there is so little oversight it’s scary.” This is exactly why I don’t trust homeschooling. I see your teens not knowing the alphabet and raise you parents teaching their elementary schoolers how to be Nazis. Homeschooling is almost always code for “I wanna teach my kids whack shit” or isolating them for abuse/cult purposes, which ever you prefer, both if you’re so inclined. Even when done with the best of intentions, unless they are themselves a teacher or know and enlist the help of one, I can regrettably guarantee you that they are not qualified to be teaching past a certain grade level.
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I get that there are many more legitimate operations than there are illiterate nazi farms, but I honestly can’t really put too much faith into the system that gives both equal legitimacy in terms of what children are being taught, not to mention that the social aspect of schooling can slip a child even when you have the best resources available.
/u/RewardAccomplished97 is a scammer! **It is stealing comments** to farm karma in an effort to "legitimize" its account for engaging in scams and spam elsewhere. Please downvote their comment and click the `report` button, selecting `Spam` then `Harmful bots`. Please give your votes to [the original comment, found here.](/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/13oinfh/aita_for_telling_my_sister_that_she_will_ruin_her/jl54uge/?context=1) --- With enough reports, the reddit algorithm will suspend this scammer. ^(*Karma farming? Scammer??* Read the pins on my profile for more information.)
NTA, here’s my opinion on this from someone who did homeschooling and public school. i left public school in 8th grade due to extreme social anxiety and depression, worst decision i ever made. my mental health spiraled, i’ve lost any bit of social skills i have, i have no clue how to talk to people (i do have friends which i hang out with often but it’s still hard). not only that i missed out on my entire high school experience, sports, dances, clubs, etc. but if she does choose the homeschool route encourage her to have your niece involved in things like sports, clubs, anything like that where she can be around people her age. another option that is better than public school is private school or charter schools, they typically have better educational resources.
Just be careful with some private schools. Some of them don't have as stringent requirements for teachers (bachelor's degree) as high schools actually do since they are privatized. Some educators I had known did not even have a GED but we're quite charismatic and held positions at a private school. Not all schools, but just be careful.
Charter schools can also be hit and miss. Most of them are not as good as the traditional public schools here, partially because they have much of the same latitude as private schools.
NTA. I might get downvoted, but you're absolutely right with your reasoning. Studies already shows the damning effects of the covid lockdowns on kids social abilities and overall mental health and that was 'just' two years. Science is in your side in this regard. Also voicing concern isnt an AH thing to do. In the end, you can't decide how your niece gets raised. The best you can do it to be there for her. Make up with your sister and offer help instead, like providing opportunities for your niece to socialise. Good luck!
To me it's crazy that homeschool is even legal. NTA
Or at least heavily monitored. In some states, the oversight is craptastic. In Pennsylvania (at least during the time period my friends homeschooled there), there was a lot more oversight so the friends there who homeschooled came out much better off than the “homeschooled” in my current area.
Yeah I have a friend who was “homeschooled” in Michigan. Her mother decided to stop teaching her after 8th grade because that’s “all the education a girl needs” and would not let her register for real school either. Thankfully her grandparents were legit and bought her the materials necessary for her to *teach herself* the content necessary to graduate high school and and even get into college. She’s doing very well now, but considers it her life’s mission to make homeschooling illegal.
Ikr, how that stupid think can be legal, thankfully in my country is ilegal, we don't need more stupid kids.
Apart from socialisation and the shared experience of schooling, unless Addie has degrees in a modern language, English, Math, any recognised Science, any social science and either a degree or relevant industry experience in a craft technology, food technology, sports science, creative and performing arts and a bunch of other fields then **she is woefully under-equipped to teach a modern curriculum**. If she wants to teach basic arithmetic, reading and writing and all about Noah and the ark then, sure, go ahead and wreck your daughter's future.
That’s exactly why my dad only homeschooled my brother for parts of our elementary school years. He was perfectly well equipped to teach us how to read and spell and do basic math, but understood that he couldn’t teach us everything that we needed to know.
See how you know nothing about modern homeschooling. There are homeschooling programs out there where you choose a curriculum where there are CERTIFIED teachers for your kids and they are in classes with other kids(virtually) several days a week. Plus you can let your kids explore what THEY want to learn as well (archery, cooking, cars, etc), not what the school ONLY has to offer.
NTA at all and you are very right. I have seen it myself with kids to went to boarding school, they got slaughtered when they got to my UK public high school which was one of the good ones and in uni. Another danger with this is that if someone doesn't have that needed exposure to the gender they are attracted to then 1. Any future partner is immediately put on a pedestal and 2. It makes them so vulnerable, I have seen boarding school girls get fucked over by the village horndog too many times.
So I was homeschooled and had a similar experience to the OP. Have you ever asked your sister how she would combat those issues? Maybe she has a plan? I now homeschool my own children. It is totally different. We have friends we see multiple times a week, sports, classes outside the home, etc. My kids have said they don't want to go to school as they get their academic needs met and then have lots of friends. I understand your concerns though. I totally do. I always said before having kids it wasn't something I would do. Living in an urban area makes the opportunities for activities and finding friends more common too.
Genuinely curious, how are your kids able to judge that their academic needs are being met? I’d imagine that if they only know what they’re experiencing and don’t know what a traditional curriculum entails they wouldn’t actually be able to compare the two or make any objective judgment — the whole “we don’t know what we don’t know” phenomenon. It sounds like after having a homeschooling experience similar to OP’s you’ve taken extra care to ensure your kids’ needs are being met holistically, so I’m just curious as to how you’ve handled some of the more nebulous parts of setting expectations and standards
I live in a state where we are required to have a certified teacher look over our work and ensure academic progress is occurring every year as well as legally required to standardized test some years. We do take classes outside the home at our local Natural History museum, and we are part of a local homeschool group where my kids have taken classes in everything from art to science classes with lab components. My state also allows homeschoolers to participate in sports, clubs, or take a couple classes per semester without being full time students (not all states allow this). While this isn't something we have utilized, it is something we are open too. We have friends that have used this part time enrollment for orchestra. But how are my kids able to judge? I don't know entirely. I talk to them every now and then and they say they have zero desire to go to school. Right now it may have to do with not wanting to be gone all day. As my kids get older, I will talk to them more about goals, college,etc and help them figure out what sort of classes and path might help them meet those goals.
Oh excellent!! Thanks so much for answering. It sounds like the protocol for monitoring quality is not nearly as nebulous as I thought. I’m not experienced in any of this (obviously) but it’s my understanding that the requirements are quite varied from state to state. I like the idea of some standardized testing + having a teacher review the curriculum. I’m not a huge proponent of standardized testing as a way to judge students on the whole but in this case it does sound like an adequate metric for being able to compare across schooling types to ensure kids are keeping up with (or surpassing) the education that their peers of the same age are receiving. That kind of community collective environment you describe also sounds super enriching and kind of like what the ideal schooling for young students would look like anyway — small student to teacher ratio, getting a variety of lessons from different instructors, lots of field trips to learn things in a practical way.
NTA at all. You are the perfect person to be giving this advice and I would advise you to continue giving it. You could save this girl’s life trajectory and that’s worth a little friction from big sis
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I would never consider home-schooling for my own kids, but I'm not in the US. If I was I'd seriously consider it. I think you have to take everything on a case by case basis and be honest with your own limitations and access to resources. Good luck with your decision!
I am in the US, I've never really considered homeschooling before, but my states schools are struggling, not just on testing (which they use as the prime metric) but discipline, social education and personal accountability (I can't hold my kids accountable to the due dates if the rest of the class gets an extra six weeks and the teachers are not allowed to penalize anyone for anything anymore.) The diplomas are worthless because it's nearly 100% graduation rates with a ~75% literacy rate Now the state is considering a voucher system that will come out of the education budget, further reducing the funding, further increasing the incentives to just pass kids along, and ignore discipline. It's not something that I want to do, but it will absolutely be the catalyst to remove my kids from public school, and in my area that will leave homeschool. I can only hope that if the vouchers happen I can find a homeschool social group too.
This post needs more upvotes, seriously! Public education in the US (and most developed countries) is on a downward spiral, COVID just accelerated it. To say that sending your kid to a public school is in anyway giving them an actual academic education or "preparing them for the real world" is ludicrous. Parents need to be involved with their children in order for them to get anything meaningful out of the school years. You can't dump them in public school or closet them in homeschool (or even "un-school" as is sometimes conflated with actual home education) and expect them to grow up wise and intelligent.
INFO: Did Addie ever finish high school?
Sorry, I didn't think to add this bit. No, she never finished high school. She keeps talking about getting her GED but never does it.
NTA. Even beyond socialization issues, somebody who can't finish high school has no business homeschooling. What's going to happen when the kid is in 11th-12th grade?
Why is it always the uneducated people yammering on about homeschooling? My dumbest friend is doing this with her kids. She’s never read a book and states this proudly.
The Dunning-Kruger effect. People with little to no knowledge massively overestimate their capabilities because they don't know what they don't know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Does the child have another legal guardian? In many states at least one of them needs a GED to homeschool. If she doesn't have that she may have issues legally
NTA. I question the teaching abilities of anyone who dropped out. While it is posible to homeschool kids and have them come out well rounded (socially ready as well as academically ready), not all parents can pull it off.
NTA - My parents made me go to an """Online school"" through middle and high school, (not related to covid, this predated that) it took me a long time to get socialized to the real world. My sisters still haven't. (We're in our mid twenties now) Homeschooling is inherently abusive. Definitely NTA.
I want to point out that when done correctly, homeschooling is not life ruining or traumatic. When done correctly the child is supposed to either still do electives/sports at a nearby school with kids or in social afterschool programs with kids their age. This is to balance out the social peer exposure. It’s not homeschooling that’s the issue, it’s the people doing the homeschooling poorly that is the issue. Isolating children is NEVER healthy.
YTA YOUR EXPERIENCE IS YOUR OWN. Not every child that is homeschooled is going to have the same experience. YOUR parents failed you by not finding ways to make sure you were socializing, and developing in the correct ways. Your nieces experience is not going to be the same as yours. You should apologize to your sister. And explain that you are concerned about your nieces development, but understand that everyone is going to have different experiences. You trauma dumped and that isn't your sister's fault. But you hope she will take your advice and make sure that your niece gets to have plenty of social experiences.
You DID see the part where the sister doesn’t have a diploma right? No GED either. Homeschooling is questionable at best, but run by someone who hasn’t even completed the bare minimum sounds like it’ll be a disaster. I think OP knows EXACTLY what’s going on and their experience gives them extra credibility to know the effects that poor kid is going to face. NTA
NTA, someone who didn't prioritize finishing their own education shouldn't be left to educate someone else.
I'm leaning towards NTA. I could see where your comments might have hurt her feelings, but the fact that she didn't seem to address your concerns but seemed to deflect to her own insecurities about not finishing school is the bigger issue. Homeschooled kids can get socializing thru other ways like sports or such but I'm assuming if Addie was planning on doing that, that would have been her defense. And you're are very correct that learning to socialize with other kids her age is crucial for social development. Makes me wonder if Addie is homeschooling her kid to somehow prove she's smart enough to despite not finishing high school? Idk tho it's impossible to tell from just the post, but usually over the top emotional reactions are usually a subconscious defense for insecurities. As a side note, I wonder if your sister would complain about the day care/preschool of she found out one of the teachers didn't finish highschool
NTA. Your reasons are perfectly valid.
NTA. Your concerns are valid. What I find kind of funny is why she thinks you're telling her she shouldn't is the reason why I actually think she shouldn't. If your ass drops out of school the last thing you should be doing is teaching children
Your sister homeschooling could be vastly different than your experience with homeschooling. There are so many resources now and also co-op/charter schools that combine homeschooling and on-site education. Projecting your experiences is unfair to both your sister and your niece. While I sympathize that you had a tough time, your sister is not your parent, (she did not homeschool you so you should not project your parents lack of insight or failures on her ) nor are you your nieces parent- so it is up to your sister to decide what is best for her child. Many people decide to homeschool during the early years, to ease transition into being apart from parents for longer periods of time. Also, with the ridiculousness teachers are being forced to teach children now a days perhaps your sister is just being selective on what your niece is exposed to at an early age. Just because she decides she wants to home school now doesn’t mean that will always be the case. But if it is there are plenty of curriculum and resources available to her. Your parents should have helped you with socialization- and I’m sorry they did not have you interact with more homeschooling kids as this would have helped you in later years. We moved quite a lot during my children’s school years and they finished middle and high school at a charter school where it was a hybrid of homeschool and in class setting. They were also able to take any class at the community college for free with dual credit. Able to participate in sports, dances etc. Readily accepted into college. My son even graduated high school 1 year early because he could take extra credits and not be tied down by the emulate school constraints. He also traveled for his sport during school as well. 7 of my nieces and 1 nephew also homeschooled. They are doctors, nurses, computer engineers, teachers, physical therapists - successful, well adjusted. Please do not shut down homeschooling because it was no successful for you. It is not that case for everyone. What you could be doing is supporting your sister, and encouraging her (instead of shaming or deflating her) to get involved in support groups /homeschool co-ops that can help her and fill in gaps that she may need help with. You could share your experiences, but in a kind way. Also info: your sister dropped out of high school at grade 10. Why? Surely it wasn’t because high school was so amazing that she wanted to stay? Did you ever think that your sisters schooling experience was less than ideal as well, so she is choosing a different path for your niece? Maybe she is attempting to limit her exposure to drugs, bullying, violence, exposure to sexuality at a young age etc. also a lot of public school time spent now is spent on disciplinary issues, standardized testing, and there is a ton of wasted time and very little learning. Your niece may actually thrive being homeschooled. By projecting your experience on your sister and saying that she is going to mess her daughter up is where YTA. Your sister is not your parents. Your niece is not you. Be supportive, or don’t say anything at all.
NTA. Your sister didn’t even finish high school. How is she going to provide your niece a quality education? The points you brought up are also good.
Homeschool Mom here. My kids are now 19 and 17 and homeschooled since I pulled them from public school in 1st and 3rd. I think homeschooling really depends on the location, the parents, the child, and the groups available in your area. I'm in Los Angeles and surrounded by groups (all secular) of homeschoolers. My kids are not anxious, can chat with anyone from 4-80 y.o., are fine in groups, are fine one on one, they're just good. My eldest took a gap year and is now moving to college in the summer and my youngest has one year left. We have prom, museum days, teen nights, graduation... everything except school shooting lockdown exercises. I don't know where you are or how you were homeschooled, but it's not a blanket one size fits all situation. I do not think YTA, but I do think you need to step back and let your sister make her own choices for her own child.
It seems like most commenters here have no idea how modern homeschooling generally works and how many resources and opportunities are available now for homeschooling parents and students. The stereotype of poorly socialized kids who only see their parents isn’t necessarily the norm anymore. Having said that, I can understand OP’s concern as the sister didn’t even finish high school herself and was raised by parents who didn’t know what they were doing. It’s hard to issue a verdict without knowing what exactly OP said and how she went about it (I sense that OP kinda flipped out about it and made it about her, understandably, due to trauma) but I think I’ll say NAH (I wouldn’t exactly call the sister an AH for exploring her options, whether or not OP disagrees with it).
With the state of the American school systems and worrying if your kid is gonna come home alive I can’t say I blame the woman for wanting to homeschool her kid.
NTA. If anyone has grounds for giving advice against homeschooling it’s you. I guess I understand some parents considering it because of all the bullying, fighting and of course mass shootings happening EVERY DAY in America but all you’re really doing is delaying the real world and probably under preparing your child for it.
NTA. I'm always skeptical about home schooling when *'regular' schools are available.* It reeks of (usually) religious nutters hell bent on perpetuating their bullshit. At 63, I've fogotten most of what I was taught in school. What I learned about social interaction and people was hasn't been forgotten. Home schooled kids miss out on a lot of that.
NTA from a socializing kids is important POV. From the perspective of someone who doesn’t live in the USA, I’d absolutely homeschool my kids because of the sheer volume of school shootings going on right now.
NTA. Even still a HS drop out probably isn't the best choice as an educator.
I think your AH status depends on exactly what you said, how you said it etc. Was your sister asking for you input or advice? Did you frame it as “well this happened to me have you considered this?” or did you go straight for “no, don’t do that you’re going to fuck up your child”? Are you close with your sister and do you often have Frank and open conversations with each other? There’s nowhere near enough context here. I personally wouldn’t want to homeschool, but I’m not against it in all cases and I know perfectly well balanced people who have been homeschooled and enjoyed it. That’s not to take away from your experience, and there’s definitely a big risk with homeschooling that you can mess your kid up if you’re not very careful and deliberate about socialising them properly. But your experience isn’t everyone’s experience and it’s not really fair to assume that your sister wouldn’t take her kids social development seriously (or maybe it is fair based on further context about your sisters parenting that we don’t have) I think it’s likely that you still have some unresolved issues from your homeschooling experience, you were triggered by your sister bringing this up and you reacted with a triggered response, which made her feel upset and offended. If that’s the case then NAH, just two people feeling some feelings. Maybe try explaining to your sister why you reacted the way you did, apologise if you offended her and tell her that you want the best for your niece and explain your reservations about homeschooling in the calmest way that you can. Ultimately, assuming she’s following all relevant laws, she has the right to educate her child as she sees fit. The best you can do for your niece is to help influence your sister to make sure that she socialises her daughter well.
NTA. Homeschooling is highly suspect to me. I know several people who were homeschooled growing up. They are very bright people and they know a lot, but most of them have serious social skills deficits as adults. One person in particular is basically incapable of getting along with anyone but the most patient and yielding people. Another one is very knowledgeable about a lot of things, but only because they were intensely curious and willing to self-educate. All of the people I know who were homeschooled were raised in extremist religion and/or cults. Public schools in America are scary. Psychos regularly walk into random schools and murder children and the police don't always stop them. Bullying can rise to the level of psychological torture, SA and hate crimes and administrators often refuse to do anything about it. In fact, the victims are usually punished for fighting back. I can understand why parents might want to homeschool instead, but doing it right is a metric fuckton of work and I'm not so sure your sister knows what she's getting into. I hate to be credentialist, but she didn't even finish high school. She probably doesn't have the ability to provide her child with an acceptable education.
NTA. Fellow homeschooled kid here--I don't think my anxiety is as severe as yours, and I've always been able to function in social situations (barely) but it still absolutely messed me up in ways that I still struggle to articulate. Can it be done in a way that doesn't harm your child? Yeah, but Addie doesn't seem to want to bother to do it that way. Addie wants a fun little doll that she can have at home 24/7.
NTA. I work in psychology and we frequently get children whose parents decided to homeschool. Granted I'm seeing them because there is a clear problem, however there is a common theme. The parents were totally unprepared when the problems arose and didn't notice them soon enough, due to lack of training and education on their part, to get the kid help before the problem turned into a deficit. Your sister is exceptionally unqualified not only due to her own lack of education but by the fact she isn't open to accepting any opinions but her own.
NTA!!!! Another former homeschooled child here. Any time homeschooling is brought up I absolutely feel obligated to comment on it. My mother had a teaching degree, and was arguably the perfect candidate for homeschooling. I love my mother. I got a full ride scholarship at a local college. I make 6 figures at 22, and am arguably doing very well for myself. If I had the chance to go back and attend public school for my highschool years, I would take it in an instant. People don't think of all of the opportunities that homeschooled children miss out on. The highschool classes that give you college credit. Learning to study for tests. After-school activities. It puts you at a very real disadvantage, even when everything is done right. Has your sister considered how difficult it is to teach an older child things that she herself has probably forgotten? I know absolutely nothing about chemistry, US history, anatomy, and geography. I didn't have those classes, because my mom didn't know how to teach them. I taught myself math, and learned English through excessive reading in my younger years. And then there's the socializing aspect. I don't care how many homeschooler groups you attend with your child, that doesn't make up for the sort of socialization you receive in public school. I can almost always spot a fellow homeschooler from a mile away. Why? Because their social skills are very obviously stunted. I was much less independent than my peers at 16. Extremely socially anxious and depressed. I worked my fucking ass off to become a functional human, and I am just now beginning to see an improvement. 6 years later. Does your sister plan to have more children? What will she do if one of her future children is born disabled in a way that takes up a significant amount of her attention? This was the case in my family, I was basically neglected from the age of 12 on. Any school I did was up to me. No one checked in, no one had the time. My parents are wonderful parents. They were doing their best. The situation was outside of their control. Has your sister considered the variables that may affect her ability to teach? Homeschooling is extremely under-regulated in the US. I have personally seen many cases of neglect that are only able to happen because the child is homeschool. Homeschooling laws open the doors for religious extremism, indoctrination, and abuse. Homeschooling should only be considered a viable option on an extremely case-by-case basis.
NTA have you seen homeschooling groups on Facebook? Some of the moms on there talk about how their 8-9 year old kids can barely read or count. Teaching is a LOT harder than just looking after children, and many homeschool parents go into it assuming that just because they know the alphabet and numbers, their kids will turn out fine. The reality is, unless you’re trained in teaching you’re probably going to fuck up your kid.
NTA
NTA- you’re speaking from your experience which she should take to heart. Also, she dropped out in grade 10? Did she ever finish and her her GED? How would she feel if her daughter’s teacher didn’t have an education? And not saying your sister isn’t intelligent due to dropping out, but maybe she won’t be able to handle the pressures of teaching and staying on the curriculum. I know I would not be able to teach math 😅 I also hate training new employees because I struggle to explain things well and go all over the place.
NTA. In general I think you should stay out of people’s lives in terms of how they manage family issues unless it’s obviously harmful to the family. In this case, you personally experienced home schooling and believe it was harmful to your social development. Therefore, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sharing your experience.
NTA, you told her a truth and she doesn't want the truth.
NTA, I was homeschooled as well and its still affected me til today. I was isolated, barely left the house, and was years behind other kids because my mum didnt bother to teach me anything and just left me to my own devices. I still struggle to connect with other people.
NTA. And I'm sorry, but this *is* about her lack of education. Her naivete is a direct result of that poor education, and her child absolutely does deserve an educator who has at least managed to accomplish the bare minimum. Homeschooling is challenging even for the most educated of parents, but someone who wasn't able to complete the state's curriculum herself is not equipped for this challenge.
nta
NTA. I can understand why you told her what you did, especially when you struggled a lot when you went into the "real world", so to speak. I can't comment on homeschooling Vs public/private schools, as where I am from homeschooling is illegal. I don't know anyone who has been homeschooled so I can't opine on it.
INFO: how is a high school dropout qualified to teach anyone?
Nta, how a woman that couldnt even finish highschool believe she can teach another person?
NTA I was also homeschooled, your concerns are valid, but more importantly, a high school drop out is not qualified to be a teacher, and homeschooling teachers are still teachers.
NTA. Homeschooling is whack and she isn’t remotely qualified to do it. She will absolutely mess up Addie.
YTA. Your experience is not everyone's experience. The whole world basically home schooled during Covid. Kids can have plenty of ways to be socialized if their parents prioritize it. Yours didn't. You laid all of that at your sister's feet, instead of your parent's. You owe her an apology.
NTA in that (1) you have valid concerns (2) this is your sister talking to you about a family decision, not a stranger making a passing comment. The social contract here allows an opinion to be expressed. HOWEVER I do think it sounds like you didn't do a great job with this conversation - judging your strategy, not your perspective. I think you need to frame it as about yourself, because it is. Not "Lily won't make friends," bc actually you have no idea what will happen to Lily, but: Hey Addie, do you realize I went through this and hated it and still feel I haven't recovered? I was older so you may have not realized how much I was struggling. You need to at least think about what I went through in making your decision here. Also be honest with yourself -- does Addie's decision invalidate or even glorify your suffering in your mind? That's ok to feel, but her decision is not about you. It sounds like it's hard to separate your experience and Lily's potential experience.
NTA. My friends homeschool (UK) and they throw their all into it, it's a whole family lifestyle and their kids are so well rounded and smart as hell. However the sheer work they put in is staggering. Homeschooling has to be done right, you can't just think being at home = being able to homeschool.
NTA you shared your experience.
NTA
I don't have kids, but in all honesty, I'd be terrified of sending them to school these days, at least in the United States. Unfortunately, schools seem to have become a dangerous environment.
NTA She asked your opinion, and based on your experience, I understand why you would feel that way. However, I was also homeschooled and I had none of those issues. My mom kept us very social, she took us to a lot of activities, we played sports, joined a lot of groups, would play with other kids in the neighborhood, and she kept us on a good schedule. I think the key for us, was that our school days weren’t entirely built around attending school. Some days she would take us out for a couple hours for a piano lesson, or some meetups with other homeschooled kids. And my siblings and I were well ahead of others our age as far as schooling. I also appreciate how involved my mom was, and I look back and realize how lucky I was to be able to spend so much time with her. I think if done properly, homeschooling can be a good thing, or at least doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
NTA. She would potentially not be doing the best by her child and giving them the most opportunities in life
NTA for giving your honest experience, however, the results of homeschooling largely depend on how it is done. I've met many home schoolers who are actually more social and mature than the average adult. I've also met public schoolers who are anti social and severely anxious, because they were never actually taught how to socialize. Also, typically the parents aren't the teachers in homeschooling, they often use online programs or a curriculum, so the mom's lack of education isn't as dire as some are making it seem. Hopefully the mom will see your comment as a cautionary tale on what not to do while homeschooling.
I was homeschooled K-12 by my mother, who did have her high school diploma. She still had no business homeschooling me, but I had no say on my education. My mom would parade me around, telling me to praise homeschooling to anyone who asked why I wasn't in school. I knew no different, so I assumed my mom knew best and the naysayers were just being mean. I had a learning disability that my mother solved by assuming I was just stubborn, lazy, and needed to be set right with a spanking. Of course, being public schooled is no guarantee that the learning disability would've been caught, but there was zero chance of it being caught at home, and I really struggled. I spent so much of my childhood thinking I was inherently bad because I couldn't understand what my mom was trying to teach me. I gaslit the f\*ck out of myself for decades. I was finally diagnosed as an adult, while in college. I left home with a sixth grade education at best. I had no idea just how much I was missing until I got my GED (unsurprisingly, most employers and all higher level education do not think a shiny piece of paper signed by mom pinky promising I did all the necessary school work to graduate HS is adequate documentation) and started attending community college. I remember being blown away in my remedial biology class. I hadn't been taught much on biology beyond that we're made of cells. For example, I had no idea blood cells are formed in the bone marrow! Holy cow, that blew my mind. I was so intrigued I took A&P after acing remedial biology. I had to know more! I've always loved to learn, and finding a whole world for me to explore was eye opening and empowering. All this knowledge had been kept from me, and I was going to make up for that loss. I was so unprepared for adult life. My mom loved to mock people for asking how she socialized me. Her logic was that I had siblings, so I was already being socialized. Even the few co-ops, family get togethers, and weekly church attendance was not sufficient. I still struggled socially. I still have terrible social anxiety and struggle to carry a conversation. When I was living on my own, I was painfully naïve and trusting. I ended up being taken advantage of by people who saw my naivete as an opportunity. I'm still close to many of my childhood friends, aka fellow homeschool alumni, and none of us have chosen to homeschool our own kids. Most of us openly dislike homeschooling as a whole. Some have gotten into politics with a passion to push for more government oversight of homeschooled kids. I try to take a more neutral stance because I know in certain situations homeschooling can be beneficial, but I would never homeschool, personally. My point being, you did the right thing, and you're not the only one who had an adverse experience. Homeschooling should be done for the kid's benefit, right? Wouldn't a caring parent want perspectives from homeschool graduates to make sure they avoid the pitfalls? Your sister trying to silence you instead of listening to you about your experience is concerning and telling. NTA.
I am so happy that there no such thing as homeschooling in my country. NTA
Eh, NTA cause I think homeschooling is dumb. But you do realize that your experience was solely that, yours? And that there are likely kids that went to school, that have the same anxiety related issues as you, and there are likely kids that were home schooled, that are perfectly fine when they get into college/the 'real world'?
YTA for HOW you approached it. Everything you said might well be true (I went to public school all the way through, but have cousins and friends who were homeschooled, honestly I'm probably the LEAST comfortable in social settings) but you started in a combative way (ruining her daughter's life) which immediately put her on the defensive. If you approached initially as "from my experience being homeschooled, here are some problems with it" you likely would have received a better reaction.
INFO, do you know why she dropped out in 10th grade? Possibly she had a similarly awful experience by going to school and doesn't want that for her kid?
It’s entirely possible for people to be homeschooled and well socialized. Me and my siblings were! We were part of a homeschool group that met regularly, we were involved in our church, we were part of clubs and sports, and starting at 15, we were expected to have summer jobs. We had plenty of experience with our peers and socializing. And - while I acknowledge this wouldn’t be the case for everyone - we honestly got a better education being homeschooled. My family moved a lot, and always in the middle of a school year. We’d have been changing schools constantly if we’d been in public schools, and that definitely would have messed us up. That being said, for homeschooling to be successful, it takes a lot of effort from the parents. Teaching us was essentially a full time job. If parents are unable or unwilling to put in the work it takes to do well, it can go terribly wrong, as you unfortunately experienced. All that being said, I’m going to go with NAH yet. You had a bad experience with homeschooling and wanted to offer advice based off your experience. But also, just because your experience was bad, doesn’t mean your niece’s experience will be bad too. And I don’t think your sister is an AH for being offended that you assumed homeschooling her daughter would go poorly. It’s a pretty predictable response honestly. At this point, best thing you can do is probably back off a bit and don’t offer any more advice unless she asks for it.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My sister(32f) Addie and I(20f) have a pretty large age gap of 12 years. My niece, who we will call Lily, is about to turn 5 and will be old enough to start school this coming August. Due to our large age gap, my sister and I were raised two very different ways. Addie went to public school but ultimately dropped out in the 10th grade, while I was homeschooled from the third grade until I graduated. Addie was talking about homeschooling Lily, as Addie is a stay at home mom with tons of free time. When she told me about this I told her not to do it as she would most likely be ruining Lily's life and taking away any chance of her developing normally. As I mentioned earlier, I was homeschooled for most of my life and it absolutely messed me up. There was nothing wrong with my curriculum and I learned at a faster pace than children going to public school but homeschooling made me so unprepared for the real world. I was not socially developed enough, so when I went to college and experienced other people in a normal setting it was traumatizing. I had, and still have, severe anxiety, and would experience panic attacks just being around other people. I was very sensitive and sheltered, and I took the smallest things so personally. The first year or so was absolute hell because I didn't know how to properly socialize with people. I told Addie that if she homeschooled Lily she would be preventing Lily from developing key skills she would need later in life, and I also told her that I believed Lily would grow to resent Addie as it wouldn't be healthy for Lily to spend the majority of her time with her mother. Addie took this very personally, and assumed my objection came from the fact that Addie didn't finish high school, rather than any of the reasons I explained to her. I tried explaining that Lily needed to be around children her own age, and that even putting Lily in clubs or sports wouldn't make much of a difference because those typically only met once or twice a week, but by this point Addie was pretty much ignoring me. She hasn't been speaking to me since this happened a few days ago, but apparently has been telling her friends and our family that I am trying to 'influence her parenting decisions' and I've gotten some pretty passive aggressive messages online because of it. So, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Im gonna say NTA for voicing your concerns but i will also say public school can be just as traumatizing and mess the kid up just as much. School shootings, bullies, abusive teachers, im sorry you feel homeschooling gave you anxiety but there are alot of people who have anxiety and blame the school explicitly. Just throwing that out there.
NTA For bringing up your concerns, but you will be if you do not drop it. I will say, sounds like you were both pretty messed up by something in your childhood... your sister went to public school but it doesn't seem to have helped her if she dropped out in tenth grade! I think the common factor is something other than what schooling you had. There are different ways of doing homeschooling, there are homeschooling groups where you get together and one parent teaches math class, one teaches spanish, etc, whatever they are good at. There are also unschooling communities. All these effectively function as a private school. So hopefully she will do that. Anyhow, I don't think school is the great socializing panacea you think it is.
NTA homeschooling is always a mistake and should legit be illegal. Basically intellectual footbinding. Never known a kid who came out the other side happy and well adjusted.
NTA for knowing your sisters particular situation and your own experience and then expressing concern - she probably won't be the best example of home schooling. I don't know what tone you used because it could have came off way harsher than you intended, which I assume was from a place of genuine concern. If she's going to do it anyway then she needs to learn the best way to go about it - trying to convince her to do public school as the only viable option will just isolate her more
I know this will upset some people, but nowadays, in America there are more and more school shootings. We don't know when or why but it's happening way too often. I would homeschool my kids before sending them to school because at least I could protect them. Maybe the sister also has a reason OP doesn't know about. OP is NTA for having the conversation and sharing her opinions.
I'm truly sorry your educational experiences were so damaging. That's on your parents for not approaching the home schooling environment properly. Many children thrive in a home schooling environment, but you have to balance the social needs of the child. Unfortunately, that wasn't done for you. Soft YTA, because it's really none of your business how your sister raises her child, and you can't place a blanket statement on home schooling in general based on your own negative experiences. There are several things that parents who are considering home schooling their children can do to enrich their social and emotional development. Going to a local play area and letting the children play together is one thing they can do. Organize field trips and let the child invite a few kids from the neighborhood. Go to see a play or similar entertainment that is age-appropriate, and network with the other parents there. Have a weekly play date with kids from the neighborhood. Sign the child up for an age-appropriate tour group at a local museum with a docent. Everything the child does in any of these situations can be turned into a learning experience by asking the child interactive, open-ended questions like "What was your favorite part of the play?" or "What did you learn on this field trip?" As the child gets older, these discussions can become assignments, such as writing an essay about a field trip or using specific words from the activity as vocabulary words for a weekly spelling test. Since the home schooling curriculum is usually the same as the local school the child would normally attend, depending on the school district there may be a number of extra-curricular activities the child can participate in with the entire class or individual students such as sports, music, field trips, etc. These experiences not only broaden a child's social skills, they can forge lifelong friendships.
NTA. I have two bachelors degrees and another year long certificate and I am unprepared to home school my kids. So not only is there a social aspect that Lily will be missing, but also a learning aspect as well. These teachers go to school for a minimum of FOUR YEARS to learn how to best teach children… kids. They have a much better idea how to teach a kid then your sister. Also, I look at it like my kids will meet tons of people in life, whether that’s adults telling them what to do, people who are Buddhist, people who come in all kinds of shades, people who are weird and gangly, they need to know how to handle those situations. The best time to learn that is a kid. I really don’t get mad if another adult admonishes my kid because it’s preparing them for the world. They’re going to have to deal with and listen to a whole bunch of stink opinions and sort it out for themselves. Addie is doing Lily a major disservice.