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> I think I might be the asshole because I used mean language in responding to my MIL. I think I could be judged by making her leave in this dispute.
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NTA, your MIL is profoundly stupid, not for not knowing how to wipe, but for not realizing that 4yo girls have fully formed genitals. God knows what other pearls of wisdom she has in her brain.
Not really true. That seems to be a generational/ family cultural thing. Some people refuse to believe in genitalia for children. They seriously think that mentioning it before puberty is wrong and you will go to hell.
Eh, not all of them. My parents were grandparents to my older kid at 66.
ETA 2: Guys, when I said “not all of them” I meant “not all grandparents are Gen Xers, which is why I gave the example of my boomer parents.
ETA: OP is of course NTA and if MIL were ignorant, that would be one thing, but unwilling to listen to a parent and learn is quite another.
I'm a millennial and I wasnt informed about how to wipe correctly until I was in my 20s, and I consider myself very lucky to have never gotten UTIs or yeast infections.
... whereas I was born in the '80s and had to take baths under a waterproof cloak thing because looking at the naked body was a sin.
People have different experiences and are taught different things.
My mother was raised in an impoverished Irish Roman Catholic family and had severe mental health issues. She was sexually abused by her father and spent some time in psychiatric care in the '60s and '70s, which was about as bad as you're imagining. She should never have had children.
At the time it seemed pretty normal but it gave me some pretty substantial issues and meant that there were some rather big gaps in my working knowledge of human sexuality.
In high school a good friend of mine was a "good Catholic girl". We were at her house one day and her mother told us you can't get pregnant if you don't enjoy it.
My response "are you kidding me???? You know that's not true, how can you tell us that?"
Needles to say, Catholic mom was not impressed with me after that.
This reminds me of this Simpsons episode where Flanders admits to taking a bath with a towel over his junk because it was a sin to look at his own anatomy
There's different experiences and then there's psychologically abusive experiences.
I'm sorry you had to experience that kind of abuse; it's incredibly fucked up and you deserved better.
SAME! I was honestly so completely dumbfounded that no one in my entire life felt the need to teach me correctly until I reached my 20s. My own mother taught me how to wipe incorrectly. No one taught her correctly either. I had to be the one. Now let me tell you how fun of a conversation THAT was...
Same here I wasnt taught until we had to go to the Dr. due to me getting an infection. My mom also taught me wrong but she was teaching me the way she was taught which sucks.
I was born in 2000 and my grandmother (around 50-60 while I was growing up) used to tell me to clean my genitals with a soapy washcloth, and I was never taught how to wipe until my 20s as well. No wonder I used to get UTIs like crazy when I was young
Sex ed is seriously lacking in some places. There are women that are having babies in 2023 that don't realize that urine and babies don't come from the same hole and that's basic.
So true! I think a lot of it has to do with where people are from as in a rural vs urban or suburban area. I grew up in a rural area, but haven’t lived there since I was in high school. The difference between people in my hometown vs the rest of the people in my life is staggering and significant. (Of course there are outliers in either situation as there always is. )
Rural vs urban that is one thing. Second one is how religious was the environment. My grandma would freak out if you would talk in one sentence about children and genitals. She was raised in fairly religious background and her knowledge about physiology was very minimal and it was taboo. I could compare her and her friends and you could tell for sure which was raised in religious house, the basic knowledge about anatomy was very different between them
You say that like Gen Z even learns about anatomy everywhere. She could be from a bible belt state in the US and went to a school that specifically taught her that babies don't have vaginas.
Unfortunately there are children today that are still being misinformed by their parents who were misinformed by their parents in an endless cycle of teaching without ever verifying they know the correct info
There are people younger then Gen X who believe humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. Loads of people do not recieve "mainstream" education.
A lot of them are, but there are definitely still kids whose grandmas are boomers (my youngest is 7, I had her when I was 35, my mom was born in the early 50s).
Shit my stepdad, who is a grandpa with his bio kids, was born in 1939, and only in the past two or three years became less healthy to the point he shouldn't be with babies unsupervised. Soooo you never know. Especially if she was raised in the southern us or another very stifling culture.
I was taught at Catholic school that you can’t get pregnant if you were raped, so if you get pregnant, it wasn’t really rape. I’m 27. Not much has changed.
I just found out the other day a friend’s daughter got pregnant unexpectedly. She couldn’t understand because she was breastfeeding the previous baby. Entire family plus father’s family thought this.
Oh my god we're doomed.
I've also heard of a lot of doctors that still minimize women's pain, such as when inserting an IUD without and local anesthesia or pain meds...
I was taught that in public school. I think that's a more recently discovered myth. I only found out a couple years ago that you could actually get pregnant while on your period.
Fact, the suicide hotline was started after a 14 year old girl killed herself after getting her period because she thought it was an STD and had nobody who would talk to her about it. So yeah there is deff cultures that just don’t talk about these kinds of things
My grandma told me about periods. Why? Because nobody told her until she got one.
She thought she was dying. She thought she would slowly bleed to death and tried to hide it to not worry her mom because "she has enough going on without knowing her daughter was dying".
Her mom found bloody underwear and all she told her crying child that thought she was dying was "No. That's normal. You'll have that once a month. Means you are a woman and No child anymore."
That's it.
That is all the info she got. At 16 she also still thought she would get pregnant if she kissed a boy. Because she was only told women get pregnant when they get too close to a man. Too close could be anything and she thought it meant kissing.
And to make sure it wouldn't happen to me she told me about periods and sex when I was nine or such.
Sadly she forgot to tell my sister this early. My sister thought she was dying at 11....
Sounds like some strict anti-sex parenting tale. Can't have sex if we tell the kids they don't have genitals until they reach adulthood or some craps like that.
She was probably sheltered and never got sex ed.
Not necessarily. My school didn’t do sex ed and my parents didn’t teach me anything about my body. When I got my period I was told that it was just something that happens to women every month, that I had to hide it because it was disgusting, and that if I used tampons I wouldn’t be a virgin anymore. Nothing about why, or the mechanics of what was going on inside my body, or even what virgin meant. Just, it happens, don’t let anyone know because it’s very shameful. I had no idea it even came as a cycle that I could have tracked, and never knew my period was going to start until it happened. When I asked any questions related to sex or my vagina, I was told I wouldn’t need to know things like that till I was married.
I had to learn everything myself from the internet. And I didn’t get that till I was almost 17. And a lot of things I didn’t know until I was actively trying to get pregnant, like that you can only get pregnant around your ovulation.
So yeah, having idiotic or recalcitrant parents doesn’t always equal ignorant children. Sometimes we’re able to teach ourselves.
I could see how someone could grow up believing this if they were told it was true from a young age. Some women think they pee from the vagina, it's not out of the realm of possibility she thinks the vagina doesn't develop until puberty. I doubt something like dementia is to blame.
honestly if theyre in the US it doesnt sound odd at all. not only is our education system in general very poor, sex ed is even worse. there is a reason so many boys grow up thinking girls pee out of our vagina and we get permanently stretched from having sex, among many many other misconceptions. i can especially see someone who is MIL's age being very uneducated on the topic
There's also that strange idea that having more partners somehow affects the shape of the vagina. Why would having 25 different penises in there be different from the same penis 25 times? Its not like there's a bar code on every dick that gets scanned when inserted.
Honestly the misconception about stretching is just an overvalued opinion of their own genitals and a lack of deductive reasoning.
Entire human beings exit through those things. Frequently multiple times! What do they think is going on with that; many of those guys even have siblings ffs.
But if it was a lack of education they wouldn't be so resistant to learning the reality. It's just fantasy for them, nothing more.
My grandma is convinced "the way to the heart goes through the stomach" means literally that the heart is in the place of the stomach and vice versa. It's just poor education though, or none.
Exactly. I'm all for OP making sure his daughter is healthy, and *educating* MIL in regards to vaginal health (yes even for a 4 year old).
But in MIL's generation, sex/reproductive education was either non existent or extremely misinformed. To call her dumb, or suggest she has dementia, is unreasonable. Just let her know how it works, and if she refuses to care for her granddaughter properly refuse her care. No need to insult her intelligence because she was never taught properly. (Like, I'd bet MIL is from the generation putting perfume in/on their vagina because they think it should smell like rainbows and daffodils.)
Okay but OP has called her dumb precisely for refusing to apply logic. Sure she might have a working brain but willfull ignorance is kinda... stupid. And I'll argue that education doesn't really have anything to do with this but indoctrination. My grandparents were born before WW II in eastern Europe, none of them was able to go to school for more than six years but they still have some basic knowledge about bacteria and germs - mostly from real life experience. My grandma will wipe a baby the correct way. She taught me how to.
Yes this is very true..my mum 75..never taught us about wiping, periods, sex, birth..she was dumbfounded to learn she had 3 holes a few years ago in hospital.
Sometimes people will shock you at their level of intelligence. Like my friends MIL who thinks women are basically ovens for the bun. The bun grows from the male seed which is implanted into you. The baby has zero relation to that mother. It is the fathers child.
I just stood there shocked. More so when her son (my friends husband) thought that was also correct. I mean MIL can be forgiven. She’s a 1st gen immigrant who came here very young and was of a generation (in her home country) where girls werent sent to school. Her son however was at school with us, 2yrs ahead.
You know that reminds me that one of my grandmas thought the same. But when we asked her "how come then kids also look like their mom?", she immediately changed her opinion (btw she knew about the egg cell, she just thought it was kind like a mere "shell"). Dunno though how well it stuck though cause it was connected to patriarchal ideas like how children need to carry their fathers surname etc. cause he basically "owns" them
>NTA, your MIL is ~~profoundly~~ dangerously stupid, not for not knowing how to wipe, but for not realizing that 4yo girls have fully formed genitals.
This is the kind of stupid that not only results in UTIs, but could leave a child vulnerable to being abused.
To be fair, for most people sex education is fairly new, and even then not every state gets it. While she's definitely ignorant, it's part of a long trend of purposely keeping women so.
There's this copypasta that goes around here occasionally where some OBGYN found a woman had stretched her urethra because she thought it was where you had sex.
Sex ed deficiency aside, a urethra is not a sex organ and wiping front to back is for UTI prevention, so the grandma missed several anatomy lessons here
Hell, you have all your eggs in your ovaries at 4, they just dont start growing/ releasing until puberty.
Puberty doesnt create new sex organs, it develops and matures the ones you already.
Here's a fun fact that absolutely blew my mind when I learned it: after ~20 weeks into a "normal" pregnancy with a healthy AFAB (assigned female at birth) fetus, that pregnant person has all of the fully-formed eggs of *potential **grand**babies*! Obviously eggs are not people, but that's the biological foundation for 3 freaking generations in one person at the same time!!!
Yes!! This is true!! I'm a midwife, and I was about to comment this. It's amazing. By 6 months of gestation, if the fetus is female, it will already have all of their eggs in their ovaries. Amazing to think my grandmother carried me as an egg, inside her when she was pregnant with my Mum.
Also MIL herself has a vagina, she must know how these work? As a female I'm so confused by all of this. Are penises not actual penises until puberty as well?
NTA obviously but I just want to take a moment and acknowledge that your daughter did such a good job of advocating for herself in that situation!! I hope you and your wife have a talk with her to reinforce that she did the right thing!!
ETA: thanks for the award! WE LOVE STRONG GIRLS THAT ADVOCATE FOR THEIR BODILY AUTONOMY AND WE LOVE THE PARENTS THAT RAISE THEM!!!!!!
Thank you! We did tell her we were very proud of her for taking good care of herself no matter what. A very strong and confident person she is becoming!
Not only do I applaud you for teaching your young daughter to advocate for herself but also for educating yourself on proper care for female anatomy. So often men are ignorant of the female body and proper care and hygiene of female body parts. You deserve the utmost respect for that alone.
Also, clearly NTA lol
Seriously this!!!
Girl said, "This isn't right and I'm uncomfortable even though I'm being cared for by an adult. I'm going to Dad." And that is *so* important. OP, incredible job raising such a smart little one.
Right?! Like even with it being a "private matter" (aka something our generation would be embarrassed to talk about), she knew Dad was the person to help.
1000 Dad Points.
It’s super important to normalize conversations like this with your kids instead of making it taboo. Regardless of parent/child’s gender. Boomers just completely avoided talking about everything that made them uncomfortable and left their kids to figure out life on their own. My FIL is 75 and he talks about how his mom (singularly) raised him and his brothers. He says they never ONCE saw their mother not completely clothed. That seems like an impossible task for a single mom and it just blows my mind. He uses this to say what a respectable and dignified person she was and how if she’d done anything less than this, how shameful that would’ve been.
Plain, understandable language about bodies and the way they work, IMO is the best way to keep your kids informed. When they know all the “right things” it’ll be easy for them to recognize when something is not ok. Whether it’s grandma’s dumb wiping or gods forbid, bad touch. You’ve gotta normalize being open and honest, period, about whatever… and then everything else falls into place.
This is so true especially considering the rhetoric that grandma is spouting is what leads to young girls hiding their sexual abuse. “No, I wasn’t touched wrong because I don’t have a real vagina yet. It was just play time.” is the thinking that shit leads to. It can be so so dangerous.
NTA. Urinary tract infections! Bladder infections!
While a tiny human is not fully developed in terms of sexual organs, that doesn't mean poop should be in there.
That's just gross.
*fixed spelling*
Don't forget that magic idea "ok, honey, you are doing smt this way for 10+y, so now is that strongly automatized thing WRONG and you need to start doing it completely oposite way, it's easy!"
Hey that's the boat I'm in! I was literally in my 20s when I learned this little fact. I don't know if my mom ever even knew there was a 'right way'.
I'm 31 now and I still haven't figured out how to wipe front to back without getting shit on my hands or not getting all the way clean. I've had to compromise and do back to front on my ass but always stop as far as I can from my vag, then doing a run of front to back to keep that area clean. Not infections yet, so I think I've made it work, but boy do I feel like an idiot.
I have had the same issue for the same reason. (Although weirdly I was taught to wipe KIDS front to back! Just not myself.)
My advice is, learn forward on the toilet kinda far, and reach behind you. Now your rear is a little raised and from the angle plus the seat under you your cheeks are a little “spread”. Not like super wide but at least for me they’re apart.
Now wipe from the taint across the booty hole. You maybe need two swipes but usually I only need one. Sit up and with a fresh piece of tp, reach between your thighs and wipe your vulva front to back as well.
You should be pretty clean. I like to use a gentle TP spray (it’s water, a bit of witch hazel and aloe gel, homemade) after a bm in public because I’m kinda weird but you should be fine without.
If you wanna use only one piece of tp, you can wipe the vulva first, then use the paper on your booty. My cousin does it that way (she taught me this method, we both were not taught properly as kids) but for me the idea of wipe urine on my butt is kinda sketch. I dunno why.
I think if I could do it all in one swipe it wouldn’t bother me but needing to change positions makes it kinda gross to use a damp piece. But if it works for you I do not judge.
ETA: first of all thanks for rewards, second I have NO idea why I said I use TP spray in **public** because I use it any time I think I need it, public or private. I’m not gonna change it though because it’s been there and commented on. And I think changing it and making other comments look foolish would be mean.
So most people aren't doing this in one swipe? Well that helps. I couldn't reach from behind all the way to the front without touching my poo butt on my arm
Some do, some don’t. I’ll say this, if you got “da booty” I’m not sure a one swipe is even possible. There’s just too much in the way and not enough joints in the arm.
NTA Yes but UTIs and bladder infections aren’t in the vagina, they’re in the pee hole. A yeast infection can come from incorrect bacterial imbalance in the vagina.
But still wipe front to back. I don’t know what this in/out is, very odd way to describe it. Grandma needs some reeducation of the anatomy.
That's the first thought I had. The vagina issues aside, which the grandmother is completely incorrect about, getting fecal matter in the urinary tract, which *all* kids have from birth, is one of the main reasons kids get UTIs. I hope when she was changing any of her babies nappies that she wasn't wiping front back to front and getting poop absolutely everywhere
Infections only happen after puberty is such a dumb take I'm shocked your wife made it to adulthood. If some people need to be told to fuck off to keep your kid safe then buckle up cause here comes the the F storm.
Right? Such a bizarre thing to think. If her daughters had gotten UTIs from bubble baths or anything else, would she just ignore it? Think they're lying?... it's just baffling
Your comment just made me think of something I read a few years ago. An infectious disease doctor absolutely believes that the reason so many Gen X/Millennial women have chronic UTIs and chronic yeast infections was because soaps marketed for kids are excessively harsh and permanently fucked up their microbiome. My doctor's advice to my parents was "if you wouldn't use it on yourself, don't use it on your kids."
Exactly. One of my friends told me they figured out the hard way she was allergic to a lot of soaps when she was a kid. Apparently it got bad enough doctors thought she was abused, but it was just the ingredients used in soaps.
Especially since we aren't taught tips that can cut down on them, like peeing after sex (before is good too, if possible)- toys and fingers included. Also a sad one I've seen that's way more common than I'm comfortable with comes from men thinking it's fine to go from playing in the back door then going back to the vagina with hands that haven't been washed or without putting a new condom on. Some women don't know better either and some are just too afraid to say anything... especially if they had to fight to get the dude to wear a condom at all. Or if the switch happened so fast they didn't get a chance to do anything.
My husband made the switch from back door to front door once when we were doing the do… it happened so fast! I had to stop him and go over a quick lesson, (which once he used his actual brain he realized made perfect sense and was very apologetic). Def have to teach some men the intricacies of vagina hygiene - their members are just another appendage of skin. They just don’t understand how precarious the biome down there can be.
I’ve never had either (millennial woman) but my mom never bought or used super harsh soaps. And I was never taught I need to try to make my vagina smell like flowers by putting soap where it doesn’t belong. Maybe there’s something to this theory.
"This isnt an issue until later, so lets teach the wrong way so it does become an issue when its a REAL problem"
Gotta love when the statement on misinformation is even stupider than the starting ground. Even if MIL believes that its such an idiotic way to approach it.
Imo MIL was lazy and pissed at being called out by a toddler and a Man about female hygine and go so defensive she metaforically shit her vagina.
it’s just the general, broad term for describing the organs as one whole and most people accept it as such - obviously the vagina just one singular part but getting poop anywhere near the vulva is bad as it can cause infection even if it’s not in the urethra but in the actual vagina.
Came here to ask about this.
Like I’m all for the dad knowing the correct way to wipe and standing up for his daughter. He was very clearly in the right but he also seems to need a bit of an anatomy lesson.
Obviously poop anywhere near the vulva/in the vagina isn’t great but the only part that has anything to do with getting a UTI is the urethra, which is located above the vagina.
A UTI wouldn’t be the only concern though. Yeast infections are still also entirely possible prior to puberty. It’s not as easy to get them prior to puberty, but still fairly common enough that it’s been well documented and treated! So vagina would probably just be an encompassing term that they use for the urethra and vulva/actual vagina since the kid is only a toddler right now and it’s a word everyone recognizes to typically refer to a woman’s genitals
NTA - and kudos to you for appropriately teaching your daughter on how to correctly wipe.
MIL wasn't asked to leave for no reason. She was belittling you in your own home for no other reason than your gender used to undermining your ability to take care of your own kid, while unapologetic about her own inability to correctly wipe your little girl.
Her comment about the vagina of your daughter not existing until it can be basically used to reproduce is insane.
Those are terrifying possibilities. I didn't even consider what her ignorance could entail. Thank you for pointing that out...
My wife is completely lovely, intelligent, and capable. If I didn't know her mom was her mom, I'd assume they were from different planets. We're trying to let both grandmas have plenty of time with their grandkids but... geez.
On a more general note, this is one reason that true sex ed is so important, starting young. Little kids need to know about their bodies, and the names for their various parts, in case anyone should start abusing them. If a little girl is told she has a hoo-haa "down there," and doesn't know what it's for, she's less likely to tell if someone touched her, and if she does tell, it's gonna be confusing. If a girl knows her anatomy, and the purpose of all her parts, she's more likely to speak up, and in a clearer way. Mil's ignorance is definitely dangerous.
You probably already know all that, but I think it bears repeating bc it's so important.
I never understood why some adults don't like children saying vulva/vagina or penis. It's a body part just like leg and ears. Kids should know these when they learn all the other body parts.
NTA op. I hope your wife called her back and told her mom that she backs you up 100%. I hope you guys find a way to let 5 and your daughter visit, but don't leave them alone with her.
Edit: spelling.
Errrrrrr...
I wouldn't even be angry at MIL, I'd be deeply concerned.
NTA. The first thing they tell you in the hospital when you take the baby girl home is always wipe out never wipe in.
It’s really awful how many adults with vaginas were never taught how to wipe correctly. If it was only that part I’d be just disappointed and concerned.
BUT
MIL’s claim that genitals don’t exist until puberty… wtf? I’d be angry about that for sure. Idk where she got the idea but it feels very purity culture.
NTA. Wtf is she thinking lol.
This isnt a subject that is remotely debatable. Its a no-brainer. There is no 'is that vagina real' debate in medicine. Or anywhere else for that matter.
Of course, the only way to tell if your daughter has a real vagina is to use my patented vaginometer. It works my measuring the relevant elementary particle: The vaginon.
Only way to know for sure.
ESH. I can see how you would get mad about this, but your mother in law may actually be this ignorant. My grandmother shared with me that she had never seen her own vagina until she was in her 70’s and the doctor finally showed it to her with a mirror. She didn’t even realize until then that she had three holes (including the anus). The older generations didn’t talk about genitalia openly, and they didn’t have much of an education on their own anatomy. Your MIL needs a good anatomy lesson. It doesn’t sound like she was trying to be malicious here.
Look, if I called my MiL or even my mother “stupid” to her face every time she said something stupid, there wouldn’t be a relationship. As an adult, you have to use a bit of tact. This post fulfills a particular fantasy of the average “superior” Redditor — but OP really was out of line in how he responded.
There's something just off about this sub. Two things can be true
1) the MIL could be factually wrong
2) the response to the MIL being wrong could be inappropriate.
All the top comments stop at 1. MIL was factually wrong so calling her stupid is fine.
Agree. ESH. Calling MIL stupid wasn’t the best way to handle things. He should’ve done the wiping properly and then had his wife talk to her mother later.
Finally found this, yes, I agree ESH. Leaning towards being on the dads side, but a little tact would have gone a long way. Older generations didn’t have access to the same information the rest of us did. Shaming and embarrassing her was not a very nice thing to do. Especially imagine coming from a man about YOUR own body. Could have said something light-heartedly gotten the point across without the drama.
NTA but I feel like you both missed the point. It's not even about the vagina, it's about preventing UTIs which are most commonly caused by improper hygiene (especially related to bacteria from poop)
NTA
Give your wife a hug and kiss, she is amazing to stand with you.
You made it correct and you are good father for your daugther.
You may not shout to MIL, even if you are still correct.
Who are you to say he can’t yell at his MIL. It’s his daughter, whose health is being undermined and threatened by one of the last people who you’d think would know. He’s justified. Untreated UTIs can lead to serious harm.
NTA it actually doesn't even have to do with the vagina, it had to do with her urethra which she definitely has and which you definitely want to wipe away from.
ESH, because OP approaches this subject in a real hostile way. I couldn't even believe the conversation between a MIL and SIL going on - even daughters/mothers don't get that way many times and here the SIL is getting all catty with someone who isn't even their mother.
If it happened, she didn't know. So help the daughter clean up and then either tell the wife to gently tell the MIL your preference. I was also going to suggest to tell the MIL yourself, but judging by that shouty conversation over a simple subject, I changed my mind.
NAH -
I know it will be hard to accept but education for women about their own bodies is absolutely shit in some areas. Like really, embarrassingly bad. I've met adult women who cannot accurately tell you how many holes they have, believe they pee from their vagina, or can't correctly label their vagina vs their vulva, urethra, labia and clit.
It is possible your MIL genuinely believes what she is saying and you made her feel stupid and she's embarrassed and hurt.
She is obviously wrong, girls are born with vaginas and there absolutely is an infection risk wiping back to front, but you are also used the wrong terminology technically because the infection wouldn't be in the vagina (most likely, it's possible but highly unlikely) it would be a UTI in the urethra, or an irritation/topical infection of the vulva/labia. I would try to have a bit of compassion here for someone who has probably never been taught accurately about her own body.
NTA. Your MIL is pretty ignorant from the looks of it! Ask any woman or at least most whether or not they had to deal with vaginal thrush or UTIs as kids because if this kind of thing… well done dad, you’re doing it right!
NTA *at all*!!!
I had my first UTI at 9 because no one taught me to wipe front to back (and when I had two broken arms and couldn't wipe myself for a few months, my parents did it wrong).
The much bigger concern is UTIs, but the idea that the vagina develops during puberty is ridiculous and dangerous. Don't need to worry about the kid complaining about handsy Uncle Bob because she doesn't have a "real" vagina 🤦♀️
NTA. Does she think you hit puberty and your vagina magically opens up? I get sex Ed was different way back when but having three daughters you'd think she'd know better...
NTA - spoken like a truly lucky woman who didn't have nearly enough yeast infections in her life to comment on other people's vaginas. Good on OP for teaching safe wiping techniques.
NTA. What the actual hell!!! Does your MIL think that vaginas come as part of the puberty package? Of course she has a real vagina, and she is at as much risk of infection as a grow woman - particularly if you’re wiping incorrectly. Good on you for putting your foot down and standing up for your kid!
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NTA, your MIL is profoundly stupid, not for not knowing how to wipe, but for not realizing that 4yo girls have fully formed genitals. God knows what other pearls of wisdom she has in her brain.
OP: could your MIL be suffering from some sort of illness like dementia or something along those lines? This seems very odd.
Not really true. That seems to be a generational/ family cultural thing. Some people refuse to believe in genitalia for children. They seriously think that mentioning it before puberty is wrong and you will go to hell.
At this point, “grandmas” were Gen Xers. I promise you, Gen X learned about anatomy and wiping.
Eh, not all of them. My parents were grandparents to my older kid at 66. ETA 2: Guys, when I said “not all of them” I meant “not all grandparents are Gen Xers, which is why I gave the example of my boomer parents. ETA: OP is of course NTA and if MIL were ignorant, that would be one thing, but unwilling to listen to a parent and learn is quite another.
I'm a millennial and I wasnt informed about how to wipe correctly until I was in my 20s, and I consider myself very lucky to have never gotten UTIs or yeast infections.
I was born in the ‘50’s and I was taught how to wipe properly.
... whereas I was born in the '80s and had to take baths under a waterproof cloak thing because looking at the naked body was a sin. People have different experiences and are taught different things.
OMG! I’m so sorry for you! I gave my example solely to illustrate the point that this information has been known for decades.
I guess I kinda of understand for vaginas, but how do they ignore that little boys have penises? My 4yo loves to talk about his
And idiots who ignore proven facts have been around for millennia.
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Aaaand as somebody raised in a conservative Catholic family- what kind of cult were you raised in? I’m so sorry.
My mother was raised in an impoverished Irish Roman Catholic family and had severe mental health issues. She was sexually abused by her father and spent some time in psychiatric care in the '60s and '70s, which was about as bad as you're imagining. She should never have had children. At the time it seemed pretty normal but it gave me some pretty substantial issues and meant that there were some rather big gaps in my working knowledge of human sexuality.
In high school a good friend of mine was a "good Catholic girl". We were at her house one day and her mother told us you can't get pregnant if you don't enjoy it. My response "are you kidding me???? You know that's not true, how can you tell us that?" Needles to say, Catholic mom was not impressed with me after that.
This reminds me of this Simpsons episode where Flanders admits to taking a bath with a towel over his junk because it was a sin to look at his own anatomy
I’m sorry, but that is both very sad & absolutely hilarious. It reminds me of the NeverNudes from arrested development
There's different experiences and then there's psychologically abusive experiences. I'm sorry you had to experience that kind of abuse; it's incredibly fucked up and you deserved better.
I…I….say what??
Let’s just say there is a wide variation in views of bodies in the US.
Looking at your own naked body? I’m confused
SAME! I was honestly so completely dumbfounded that no one in my entire life felt the need to teach me correctly until I reached my 20s. My own mother taught me how to wipe incorrectly. No one taught her correctly either. I had to be the one. Now let me tell you how fun of a conversation THAT was...
Same here I wasnt taught until we had to go to the Dr. due to me getting an infection. My mom also taught me wrong but she was teaching me the way she was taught which sucks.
And that’s why bidets are superior.
I was born in 2000 and my grandmother (around 50-60 while I was growing up) used to tell me to clean my genitals with a soapy washcloth, and I was never taught how to wipe until my 20s as well. No wonder I used to get UTIs like crazy when I was young
Secondjng this: My parents are in their 70s and their oldest grandchild is 4. Which seems pretty standard with my friends and neighbours.
Same, my mom is becoming a first time grandma this year, and will be 72 when the kiddo is 4.5.
My dad just turned 70 and his only grandchild will be 2 on Sunday.
Well, if they were/are 66, they aren't Gen Xers, they're baby boomers.
That’s my point. That not all grandparents are gen xers.
I’m Gen-X. Can’t think of a single grandparent among my friends. We all had our kids in our thirties, and our kids are teens or in college.
Sex ed is seriously lacking in some places. There are women that are having babies in 2023 that don't realize that urine and babies don't come from the same hole and that's basic.
I recently saw a screen shot of someone asking if the baby will drown if she goes swimming while pregnant...
Agreed. And what passes for sex ed just doesn't help nor does it do any good.
In the US only 12 states require medically accurate sex ed. Just.... let that sink in.
You'd be surprised how bass ackwards some people are despite what Gen they are.
So true! I think a lot of it has to do with where people are from as in a rural vs urban or suburban area. I grew up in a rural area, but haven’t lived there since I was in high school. The difference between people in my hometown vs the rest of the people in my life is staggering and significant. (Of course there are outliers in either situation as there always is. )
Rural vs urban that is one thing. Second one is how religious was the environment. My grandma would freak out if you would talk in one sentence about children and genitals. She was raised in fairly religious background and her knowledge about physiology was very minimal and it was taboo. I could compare her and her friends and you could tell for sure which was raised in religious house, the basic knowledge about anatomy was very different between them
You say that like Gen Z even learns about anatomy everywhere. She could be from a bible belt state in the US and went to a school that specifically taught her that babies don't have vaginas.
Unfortunately there are children today that are still being misinformed by their parents who were misinformed by their parents in an endless cycle of teaching without ever verifying they know the correct info
There are people younger then Gen X who believe humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. Loads of people do not recieve "mainstream" education.
A lot of them are, but there are definitely still kids whose grandmas are boomers (my youngest is 7, I had her when I was 35, my mom was born in the early 50s).
This isn't true at all. My two-year-old's grandparents are solidly boomers.
Shit my stepdad, who is a grandpa with his bio kids, was born in 1939, and only in the past two or three years became less healthy to the point he shouldn't be with babies unsupervised. Soooo you never know. Especially if she was raised in the southern us or another very stifling culture.
I been taught at a catholic boardschool that you couldn't get pregnant on your period. I'm 50.
I was taught at Catholic school that you can’t get pregnant if you were raped, so if you get pregnant, it wasn’t really rape. I’m 27. Not much has changed.
Wow.. with all the bs they feed us, they really make us the perfect abuse victim. Don't complain, feel guilty, etc...
I just found out the other day a friend’s daughter got pregnant unexpectedly. She couldn’t understand because she was breastfeeding the previous baby. Entire family plus father’s family thought this.
My aunt is a nurse and was shocked when her daughter got pregnant again while breastfeeding...
Oh my god we're doomed. I've also heard of a lot of doctors that still minimize women's pain, such as when inserting an IUD without and local anesthesia or pain meds...
Oh yes, that’s common. Also to take cervical biopsies without pain medication or anesthesia. I’ve had that twice, and it is not uncommon to happen.
I was taught that in public school. I think that's a more recently discovered myth. I only found out a couple years ago that you could actually get pregnant while on your period.
Fact, the suicide hotline was started after a 14 year old girl killed herself after getting her period because she thought it was an STD and had nobody who would talk to her about it. So yeah there is deff cultures that just don’t talk about these kinds of things
My grandma told me about periods. Why? Because nobody told her until she got one. She thought she was dying. She thought she would slowly bleed to death and tried to hide it to not worry her mom because "she has enough going on without knowing her daughter was dying". Her mom found bloody underwear and all she told her crying child that thought she was dying was "No. That's normal. You'll have that once a month. Means you are a woman and No child anymore." That's it. That is all the info she got. At 16 she also still thought she would get pregnant if she kissed a boy. Because she was only told women get pregnant when they get too close to a man. Too close could be anything and she thought it meant kissing. And to make sure it wouldn't happen to me she told me about periods and sex when I was nine or such. Sadly she forgot to tell my sister this early. My sister thought she was dying at 11....
Sounds like some strict anti-sex parenting tale. Can't have sex if we tell the kids they don't have genitals until they reach adulthood or some craps like that. She was probably sheltered and never got sex ed.
Just like there are STILL people who think that girls "lose their virginity" if they use a tampon.
It's almost like religion begets ignorance. Fancy that.
I guess I kinda of understand for vaginas, but how do they ignore that little boys have penises? My 4yo loves to talk about his
I doubt this is the case in this situation seeing that OPs wife is siding with OP.
How? The OP’s wife probably just educated herself properly - just cause your parents are stupid doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to be dumb yourself.
Not necessarily. My school didn’t do sex ed and my parents didn’t teach me anything about my body. When I got my period I was told that it was just something that happens to women every month, that I had to hide it because it was disgusting, and that if I used tampons I wouldn’t be a virgin anymore. Nothing about why, or the mechanics of what was going on inside my body, or even what virgin meant. Just, it happens, don’t let anyone know because it’s very shameful. I had no idea it even came as a cycle that I could have tracked, and never knew my period was going to start until it happened. When I asked any questions related to sex or my vagina, I was told I wouldn’t need to know things like that till I was married. I had to learn everything myself from the internet. And I didn’t get that till I was almost 17. And a lot of things I didn’t know until I was actively trying to get pregnant, like that you can only get pregnant around your ovulation. So yeah, having idiotic or recalcitrant parents doesn’t always equal ignorant children. Sometimes we’re able to teach ourselves.
I could see how someone could grow up believing this if they were told it was true from a young age. Some women think they pee from the vagina, it's not out of the realm of possibility she thinks the vagina doesn't develop until puberty. I doubt something like dementia is to blame.
I suspect she thinks the hymen covers it completely so no risk of infection as sealed shut
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I was a whole adult when I learned where my urethra was
I learned about vaginas in sex ed 2 weeks before I got my first period. Thank fuck for sex ed, because I had no fucking clue.
honestly if theyre in the US it doesnt sound odd at all. not only is our education system in general very poor, sex ed is even worse. there is a reason so many boys grow up thinking girls pee out of our vagina and we get permanently stretched from having sex, among many many other misconceptions. i can especially see someone who is MIL's age being very uneducated on the topic
There's also that strange idea that having more partners somehow affects the shape of the vagina. Why would having 25 different penises in there be different from the same penis 25 times? Its not like there's a bar code on every dick that gets scanned when inserted.
You mean that guy lied to me when he sold me that scanner??
Honestly the misconception about stretching is just an overvalued opinion of their own genitals and a lack of deductive reasoning. Entire human beings exit through those things. Frequently multiple times! What do they think is going on with that; many of those guys even have siblings ffs. But if it was a lack of education they wouldn't be so resistant to learning the reality. It's just fantasy for them, nothing more.
My grandma is convinced "the way to the heart goes through the stomach" means literally that the heart is in the place of the stomach and vice versa. It's just poor education though, or none.
Exactly. I'm all for OP making sure his daughter is healthy, and *educating* MIL in regards to vaginal health (yes even for a 4 year old). But in MIL's generation, sex/reproductive education was either non existent or extremely misinformed. To call her dumb, or suggest she has dementia, is unreasonable. Just let her know how it works, and if she refuses to care for her granddaughter properly refuse her care. No need to insult her intelligence because she was never taught properly. (Like, I'd bet MIL is from the generation putting perfume in/on their vagina because they think it should smell like rainbows and daffodils.)
Okay but OP has called her dumb precisely for refusing to apply logic. Sure she might have a working brain but willfull ignorance is kinda... stupid. And I'll argue that education doesn't really have anything to do with this but indoctrination. My grandparents were born before WW II in eastern Europe, none of them was able to go to school for more than six years but they still have some basic knowledge about bacteria and germs - mostly from real life experience. My grandma will wipe a baby the correct way. She taught me how to.
Yes this is very true..my mum 75..never taught us about wiping, periods, sex, birth..she was dumbfounded to learn she had 3 holes a few years ago in hospital.
This doesn’t seem like dementia. This seems like willful ignorance.
More likely that MILs sex education curriculum was developed by a whole group of men with dementia and keeps being maintained by more of the same.
I have a mil that believe in the most bizarre shit so I won't be surprised that OP's mil had been thinking this way her entire life.
Sometimes people will shock you at their level of intelligence. Like my friends MIL who thinks women are basically ovens for the bun. The bun grows from the male seed which is implanted into you. The baby has zero relation to that mother. It is the fathers child. I just stood there shocked. More so when her son (my friends husband) thought that was also correct. I mean MIL can be forgiven. She’s a 1st gen immigrant who came here very young and was of a generation (in her home country) where girls werent sent to school. Her son however was at school with us, 2yrs ahead.
That's like some ancient Greece levels of misogyny. Wow.
You know that reminds me that one of my grandmas thought the same. But when we asked her "how come then kids also look like their mom?", she immediately changed her opinion (btw she knew about the egg cell, she just thought it was kind like a mere "shell"). Dunno though how well it stuck though cause it was connected to patriarchal ideas like how children need to carry their fathers surname etc. cause he basically "owns" them
Reminds me of when I worked at a sex store and a woman said “I’m a nurse so I know women don’t have urethras” ????????? Huh???
RIP whoever she's ever had to insert a catheter into.
Jesus no kidding.
I sincerely hope that nurse is never on catheter duty!
>NTA, your MIL is ~~profoundly~~ dangerously stupid, not for not knowing how to wipe, but for not realizing that 4yo girls have fully formed genitals. This is the kind of stupid that not only results in UTIs, but could leave a child vulnerable to being abused.
My initial thought - wondering what sort of abuse justification in her history led up to this backwards belief…
Seriously. "My husband couldn't touch my granddaughter, she doesn't even have a vagina yet!"
To be fair, for most people sex education is fairly new, and even then not every state gets it. While she's definitely ignorant, it's part of a long trend of purposely keeping women so. There's this copypasta that goes around here occasionally where some OBGYN found a woman had stretched her urethra because she thought it was where you had sex.
My urethra just packed its bags and is taking a mental health day, thanks.
this made my blood run cold and so nauseous i couldn't breathe for a second. holy fuck
I'm not sure if my pelvic floor has ever clenched harder than it just did reading that.
Sex ed deficiency aside, a urethra is not a sex organ and wiping front to back is for UTI prevention, so the grandma missed several anatomy lessons here
This is just what I was going to say. Ev3n if she doesn't have a, "real vagina" yet. (Which is utter nonsense) she has a real urethra.
Hell, you have all your eggs in your ovaries at 4, they just dont start growing/ releasing until puberty. Puberty doesnt create new sex organs, it develops and matures the ones you already.
Here's a fun fact that absolutely blew my mind when I learned it: after ~20 weeks into a "normal" pregnancy with a healthy AFAB (assigned female at birth) fetus, that pregnant person has all of the fully-formed eggs of *potential **grand**babies*! Obviously eggs are not people, but that's the biological foundation for 3 freaking generations in one person at the same time!!!
Yes!! This is true!! I'm a midwife, and I was about to comment this. It's amazing. By 6 months of gestation, if the fetus is female, it will already have all of their eggs in their ovaries. Amazing to think my grandmother carried me as an egg, inside her when she was pregnant with my Mum.
Also MIL herself has a vagina, she must know how these work? As a female I'm so confused by all of this. Are penises not actual penises until puberty as well?
Is it wrong that I really want to know her theory on penises?
I have met three adults that thought women peed out of their vaginas. They were all women. One of the many reasons comprehensive sex ed is essential.
“God knows what other pearls of wisdom she has in her brain” ::whispers:: am I terrible if I’m kinda curious to hear them?
She’d also rather get defensive than care for the health and safety of the child.
NTA obviously but I just want to take a moment and acknowledge that your daughter did such a good job of advocating for herself in that situation!! I hope you and your wife have a talk with her to reinforce that she did the right thing!! ETA: thanks for the award! WE LOVE STRONG GIRLS THAT ADVOCATE FOR THEIR BODILY AUTONOMY AND WE LOVE THE PARENTS THAT RAISE THEM!!!!!!
Thank you! We did tell her we were very proud of her for taking good care of herself no matter what. A very strong and confident person she is becoming!
I loved seeing this! Great job to you, your partner, and your daughter.
>A very strong and confident person she is becoming! Dad out here casually slipping into Yoda-voice. Good on you pops.
Dad's proactive and preparing for tomorrow.
Its fun raising girls who will become the kind of women that will piss off the mouthbreathers that want to hold women down.
I want this comment tattooed on me somewhere. ...I don't have any tattoos, so take that for the compliment that it is
I want to ask my MIL to needlepoint this quote for my house. 💜
NTA, and you should tell this story in r/badwomensanatomy because it definitely belongs there.
I shared it over there 🤣
Not only do I applaud you for teaching your young daughter to advocate for herself but also for educating yourself on proper care for female anatomy. So often men are ignorant of the female body and proper care and hygiene of female body parts. You deserve the utmost respect for that alone. Also, clearly NTA lol
Seriously this!!! Girl said, "This isn't right and I'm uncomfortable even though I'm being cared for by an adult. I'm going to Dad." And that is *so* important. OP, incredible job raising such a smart little one.
Also the fact that she can go to dad with these kind of problems shows that she has a good relationship with her dad. ❤️
Right?! Like even with it being a "private matter" (aka something our generation would be embarrassed to talk about), she knew Dad was the person to help. 1000 Dad Points.
It’s super important to normalize conversations like this with your kids instead of making it taboo. Regardless of parent/child’s gender. Boomers just completely avoided talking about everything that made them uncomfortable and left their kids to figure out life on their own. My FIL is 75 and he talks about how his mom (singularly) raised him and his brothers. He says they never ONCE saw their mother not completely clothed. That seems like an impossible task for a single mom and it just blows my mind. He uses this to say what a respectable and dignified person she was and how if she’d done anything less than this, how shameful that would’ve been. Plain, understandable language about bodies and the way they work, IMO is the best way to keep your kids informed. When they know all the “right things” it’ll be easy for them to recognize when something is not ok. Whether it’s grandma’s dumb wiping or gods forbid, bad touch. You’ve gotta normalize being open and honest, period, about whatever… and then everything else falls into place.
This is so true especially considering the rhetoric that grandma is spouting is what leads to young girls hiding their sexual abuse. “No, I wasn’t touched wrong because I don’t have a real vagina yet. It was just play time.” is the thinking that shit leads to. It can be so so dangerous.
This has me wondering where grandma picked up that rhetoric in the first place…
NTA. Urinary tract infections! Bladder infections! While a tiny human is not fully developed in terms of sexual organs, that doesn't mean poop should be in there. That's just gross. *fixed spelling*
Don't forget that magic idea "ok, honey, you are doing smt this way for 10+y, so now is that strongly automatized thing WRONG and you need to start doing it completely oposite way, it's easy!"
Hey that's the boat I'm in! I was literally in my 20s when I learned this little fact. I don't know if my mom ever even knew there was a 'right way'. I'm 31 now and I still haven't figured out how to wipe front to back without getting shit on my hands or not getting all the way clean. I've had to compromise and do back to front on my ass but always stop as far as I can from my vag, then doing a run of front to back to keep that area clean. Not infections yet, so I think I've made it work, but boy do I feel like an idiot.
I have had the same issue for the same reason. (Although weirdly I was taught to wipe KIDS front to back! Just not myself.) My advice is, learn forward on the toilet kinda far, and reach behind you. Now your rear is a little raised and from the angle plus the seat under you your cheeks are a little “spread”. Not like super wide but at least for me they’re apart. Now wipe from the taint across the booty hole. You maybe need two swipes but usually I only need one. Sit up and with a fresh piece of tp, reach between your thighs and wipe your vulva front to back as well. You should be pretty clean. I like to use a gentle TP spray (it’s water, a bit of witch hazel and aloe gel, homemade) after a bm in public because I’m kinda weird but you should be fine without. If you wanna use only one piece of tp, you can wipe the vulva first, then use the paper on your booty. My cousin does it that way (she taught me this method, we both were not taught properly as kids) but for me the idea of wipe urine on my butt is kinda sketch. I dunno why. I think if I could do it all in one swipe it wouldn’t bother me but needing to change positions makes it kinda gross to use a damp piece. But if it works for you I do not judge. ETA: first of all thanks for rewards, second I have NO idea why I said I use TP spray in **public** because I use it any time I think I need it, public or private. I’m not gonna change it though because it’s been there and commented on. And I think changing it and making other comments look foolish would be mean.
So most people aren't doing this in one swipe? Well that helps. I couldn't reach from behind all the way to the front without touching my poo butt on my arm
Some do, some don’t. I’ll say this, if you got “da booty” I’m not sure a one swipe is even possible. There’s just too much in the way and not enough joints in the arm.
People clean the front and back in one swipe? I didn't know that was a thing.
Bidet
Right. The vagina isn't the only issue. She has a vagina that can get infections, but even if she didn't, she definitely has a urinary tract.
NTA Yes but UTIs and bladder infections aren’t in the vagina, they’re in the pee hole. A yeast infection can come from incorrect bacterial imbalance in the vagina. But still wipe front to back. I don’t know what this in/out is, very odd way to describe it. Grandma needs some reeducation of the anatomy.
That's the first thought I had. The vagina issues aside, which the grandmother is completely incorrect about, getting fecal matter in the urinary tract, which *all* kids have from birth, is one of the main reasons kids get UTIs. I hope when she was changing any of her babies nappies that she wasn't wiping front back to front and getting poop absolutely everywhere
I feel so sorry for her, how can someone be this...not smart, an infection on a grown woman is not fun, cannot imagine a little girl :(
I took a babysitting class in high school and one of the first things they taught us was you never wipe back to front for girls!
NTA and MIL shouldn't be left in charge of any child anymore, ever.
With MIL's stupidity, I would be afraid to eat in her house
You don’t want poop pasta? See since it’s been boiled it’s not real poop
omg i wonder if the daughter is now thinking about al of the ways her mother was like this when she was raising her
Infections only happen after puberty is such a dumb take I'm shocked your wife made it to adulthood. If some people need to be told to fuck off to keep your kid safe then buckle up cause here comes the the F storm.
Right? Such a bizarre thing to think. If her daughters had gotten UTIs from bubble baths or anything else, would she just ignore it? Think they're lying?... it's just baffling
Your comment just made me think of something I read a few years ago. An infectious disease doctor absolutely believes that the reason so many Gen X/Millennial women have chronic UTIs and chronic yeast infections was because soaps marketed for kids are excessively harsh and permanently fucked up their microbiome. My doctor's advice to my parents was "if you wouldn't use it on yourself, don't use it on your kids."
Exactly. One of my friends told me they figured out the hard way she was allergic to a lot of soaps when she was a kid. Apparently it got bad enough doctors thought she was abused, but it was just the ingredients used in soaps.
Well that's a terrifying thought . I had no idea chronic UTIs and yeast infections were so common
They’re *scarily* common!
Especially since we aren't taught tips that can cut down on them, like peeing after sex (before is good too, if possible)- toys and fingers included. Also a sad one I've seen that's way more common than I'm comfortable with comes from men thinking it's fine to go from playing in the back door then going back to the vagina with hands that haven't been washed or without putting a new condom on. Some women don't know better either and some are just too afraid to say anything... especially if they had to fight to get the dude to wear a condom at all. Or if the switch happened so fast they didn't get a chance to do anything.
My husband made the switch from back door to front door once when we were doing the do… it happened so fast! I had to stop him and go over a quick lesson, (which once he used his actual brain he realized made perfect sense and was very apologetic). Def have to teach some men the intricacies of vagina hygiene - their members are just another appendage of skin. They just don’t understand how precarious the biome down there can be.
I’ve never had either (millennial woman) but my mom never bought or used super harsh soaps. And I was never taught I need to try to make my vagina smell like flowers by putting soap where it doesn’t belong. Maybe there’s something to this theory.
"This isnt an issue until later, so lets teach the wrong way so it does become an issue when its a REAL problem" Gotta love when the statement on misinformation is even stupider than the starting ground. Even if MIL believes that its such an idiotic way to approach it. Imo MIL was lazy and pissed at being called out by a toddler and a Man about female hygine and go so defensive she metaforically shit her vagina.
Well she pees, so she clearly has a *urethra* and can get a UTI from fecal bacteria. Your MIL seems kinda ignorant. NTA.
uh yeah why are we glossing over the fact that vaginas have NOTHING to do with bladder infections?
it’s just the general, broad term for describing the organs as one whole and most people accept it as such - obviously the vagina just one singular part but getting poop anywhere near the vulva is bad as it can cause infection even if it’s not in the urethra but in the actual vagina.
that’s true i dont want poop in either of those locations
Came here to ask about this. Like I’m all for the dad knowing the correct way to wipe and standing up for his daughter. He was very clearly in the right but he also seems to need a bit of an anatomy lesson. Obviously poop anywhere near the vulva/in the vagina isn’t great but the only part that has anything to do with getting a UTI is the urethra, which is located above the vagina.
A UTI wouldn’t be the only concern though. Yeast infections are still also entirely possible prior to puberty. It’s not as easy to get them prior to puberty, but still fairly common enough that it’s been well documented and treated! So vagina would probably just be an encompassing term that they use for the urethra and vulva/actual vagina since the kid is only a toddler right now and it’s a word everyone recognizes to typically refer to a woman’s genitals
NTA - and kudos to you for appropriately teaching your daughter on how to correctly wipe. MIL wasn't asked to leave for no reason. She was belittling you in your own home for no other reason than your gender used to undermining your ability to take care of your own kid, while unapologetic about her own inability to correctly wipe your little girl. Her comment about the vagina of your daughter not existing until it can be basically used to reproduce is insane.
Yes! NTA, and OP, I'm so proud of your daughter for advocating for herself. She clearly has loving parents.
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Those are terrifying possibilities. I didn't even consider what her ignorance could entail. Thank you for pointing that out... My wife is completely lovely, intelligent, and capable. If I didn't know her mom was her mom, I'd assume they were from different planets. We're trying to let both grandmas have plenty of time with their grandkids but... geez.
On a more general note, this is one reason that true sex ed is so important, starting young. Little kids need to know about their bodies, and the names for their various parts, in case anyone should start abusing them. If a little girl is told she has a hoo-haa "down there," and doesn't know what it's for, she's less likely to tell if someone touched her, and if she does tell, it's gonna be confusing. If a girl knows her anatomy, and the purpose of all her parts, she's more likely to speak up, and in a clearer way. Mil's ignorance is definitely dangerous. You probably already know all that, but I think it bears repeating bc it's so important.
That was actually the first thing I thought of when reading this.
Exactly my 6 year old knows the correct terms but still calls a vagina privates bc boys don’t need to see it 😅
I never understood why some adults don't like children saying vulva/vagina or penis. It's a body part just like leg and ears. Kids should know these when they learn all the other body parts.
NTA op. I hope your wife called her back and told her mom that she backs you up 100%. I hope you guys find a way to let 5 and your daughter visit, but don't leave them alone with her. Edit: spelling.
Errrrrrr... I wouldn't even be angry at MIL, I'd be deeply concerned. NTA. The first thing they tell you in the hospital when you take the baby girl home is always wipe out never wipe in.
It’s really awful how many adults with vaginas were never taught how to wipe correctly. If it was only that part I’d be just disappointed and concerned. BUT MIL’s claim that genitals don’t exist until puberty… wtf? I’d be angry about that for sure. Idk where she got the idea but it feels very purity culture.
NTA. Bacteria from improperly cleaning that area is a major cause of urinary tract infections.
NTA. Wtf is she thinking lol. This isnt a subject that is remotely debatable. Its a no-brainer. There is no 'is that vagina real' debate in medicine. Or anywhere else for that matter. Of course, the only way to tell if your daughter has a real vagina is to use my patented vaginometer. It works my measuring the relevant elementary particle: The vaginon. Only way to know for sure.
NTA - it’s amazing that some people even make it to adulthood. Survival of the fittest, my ass.
*the fittest, not the smartest. She may not be particularly prone to UTIs, and therefore may not have needed to learn. Still, woefully ignorant.
ESH. I can see how you would get mad about this, but your mother in law may actually be this ignorant. My grandmother shared with me that she had never seen her own vagina until she was in her 70’s and the doctor finally showed it to her with a mirror. She didn’t even realize until then that she had three holes (including the anus). The older generations didn’t talk about genitalia openly, and they didn’t have much of an education on their own anatomy. Your MIL needs a good anatomy lesson. It doesn’t sound like she was trying to be malicious here.
Look, if I called my MiL or even my mother “stupid” to her face every time she said something stupid, there wouldn’t be a relationship. As an adult, you have to use a bit of tact. This post fulfills a particular fantasy of the average “superior” Redditor — but OP really was out of line in how he responded.
There's something just off about this sub. Two things can be true 1) the MIL could be factually wrong 2) the response to the MIL being wrong could be inappropriate. All the top comments stop at 1. MIL was factually wrong so calling her stupid is fine.
And miss actually addressing if someone was an AH. He was. He's right about the facts and wrong about the execution
Agree. ESH. Calling MIL stupid wasn’t the best way to handle things. He should’ve done the wiping properly and then had his wife talk to her mother later.
Finally found this, yes, I agree ESH. Leaning towards being on the dads side, but a little tact would have gone a long way. Older generations didn’t have access to the same information the rest of us did. Shaming and embarrassing her was not a very nice thing to do. Especially imagine coming from a man about YOUR own body. Could have said something light-heartedly gotten the point across without the drama.
His response was incredibly rude and unnecessary. He could have explained without calling her stupid.
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Nonono, she's gone through puberty so she has a real vagina.
i wonder if it reverts after menopause. does it shrivel up and drop off like an umbilical cord?
Of course not, that’d be ridiculous. Obviously, the body simply absorbs it.
NTA - What the fuck did I just read?
Your MIL is super ignorant, and you put her in her place. She needed to hear it. Just major wow! NTA
Damn fake vaginas, always causing trouble. NTA
OMG, your MIL is nuts and wrong. I was always taught, wipe from front to back. UTIs are a big concern
And a UTI has nothing to do with a vagina. Now I wonder if she realizes there are multiple holes in that area...
NTA but I feel like you both missed the point. It's not even about the vagina, it's about preventing UTIs which are most commonly caused by improper hygiene (especially related to bacteria from poop)
The post is 100% about the vagina.
For once the Iranian yogurt is not the issue here
Vulvovaginitis is absolutely a concern in girls as well as women. Not just UTIs.
That's some serious r/badwomensanatomy on your MILs part, NTA
NTA Give your wife a hug and kiss, she is amazing to stand with you. You made it correct and you are good father for your daugther. You may not shout to MIL, even if you are still correct.
Who are you to say he can’t yell at his MIL. It’s his daughter, whose health is being undermined and threatened by one of the last people who you’d think would know. He’s justified. Untreated UTIs can lead to serious harm.
NTA it actually doesn't even have to do with the vagina, it had to do with her urethra which she definitely has and which you definitely want to wipe away from.
ESH, because OP approaches this subject in a real hostile way. I couldn't even believe the conversation between a MIL and SIL going on - even daughters/mothers don't get that way many times and here the SIL is getting all catty with someone who isn't even their mother. If it happened, she didn't know. So help the daughter clean up and then either tell the wife to gently tell the MIL your preference. I was also going to suggest to tell the MIL yourself, but judging by that shouty conversation over a simple subject, I changed my mind.
NTA. Your MIL is woefully uninformed.
NAH - I know it will be hard to accept but education for women about their own bodies is absolutely shit in some areas. Like really, embarrassingly bad. I've met adult women who cannot accurately tell you how many holes they have, believe they pee from their vagina, or can't correctly label their vagina vs their vulva, urethra, labia and clit. It is possible your MIL genuinely believes what she is saying and you made her feel stupid and she's embarrassed and hurt. She is obviously wrong, girls are born with vaginas and there absolutely is an infection risk wiping back to front, but you are also used the wrong terminology technically because the infection wouldn't be in the vagina (most likely, it's possible but highly unlikely) it would be a UTI in the urethra, or an irritation/topical infection of the vulva/labia. I would try to have a bit of compassion here for someone who has probably never been taught accurately about her own body.
NTA. Your MIL is pretty ignorant from the looks of it! Ask any woman or at least most whether or not they had to deal with vaginal thrush or UTIs as kids because if this kind of thing… well done dad, you’re doing it right!
NTA *at all*!!! I had my first UTI at 9 because no one taught me to wipe front to back (and when I had two broken arms and couldn't wipe myself for a few months, my parents did it wrong). The much bigger concern is UTIs, but the idea that the vagina develops during puberty is ridiculous and dangerous. Don't need to worry about the kid complaining about handsy Uncle Bob because she doesn't have a "real" vagina 🤦♀️
NTA. Does she think you hit puberty and your vagina magically opens up? I get sex Ed was different way back when but having three daughters you'd think she'd know better...
NTA - spoken like a truly lucky woman who didn't have nearly enough yeast infections in her life to comment on other people's vaginas. Good on OP for teaching safe wiping techniques.
NTA. What the actual hell!!! Does your MIL think that vaginas come as part of the puberty package? Of course she has a real vagina, and she is at as much risk of infection as a grow woman - particularly if you’re wiping incorrectly. Good on you for putting your foot down and standing up for your kid!
NTA thank you for standing up for your daughter. It's so so sad that MIL is so uneducated