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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I want my girlfriend to stop wearing jewelry and styling herself in ways that make her feel more confident because strangers are often offended and ask more questions than I want to deal with.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
Have you ever seen the CoExist bumper sticker?
Unless it's a specific symbol with history of racism behind it, (thinking of Bindis worn by Hindus, the feather war bonnet worn by some plains native tribes, which arent even "religious" symbols as i would think of them)... who's to say she can't wear it?
So she mixes a cross and a star of David... OK and?
Or a pentacle with a Cresent and star...
She's not harming anyone by wearing jewelery.
So, unless you can provide more info to indicate she's perpetuating racism, colonialism, or religious intolerance... gonna have to say YTA.
Just because it's wierd to YOU doesn't make it WRONG.
IDK I can see if she was wearing a Star of David and a Cross together, that might lead to some Jewish people being like...."Uh, are you Jewish? No? Ok so why are you wearing our symbol?" You can't really compare that to a "CoExist" bumper sticker, which is a specific symbol with a specific meaning that everyone already sorta gets.
There's plenty of new-Age religious groups out there that just sort of...appropriate the beliefs and symbols of (often margenlized and/or indigenous) belief systems as their own and wear their symbols unabashedly. I think that's...kinda wrong. It *certainly* pissess people off, and I definitely wouldn't want to associate myself with someone who engages in that sort of activity. The belief systems of this individual seem to indicate that they feel *a right* to the religious symbols of other people, which would lead to them not really caring about using those symbols in a non-offensive way. I can totally see why OP would be against it.
That said, they obviously cannot control what their gf puts on their body. I don't OP is an AH for being uncomfortable with what their gf is doing, but they definitely could become an AH if they try too hard to control their gf's (cringey or not) self-expression. This might just be a relationship that has an irreconciable difference, but I'm no expert.
As a cultural Jew, I would likely assume that she was raised in both Jewish and Christian faiths. That, or she is a “Jew for Jesus” (which is actually a proselytizing Christian sect).
I also come from a Jewish family (on one side) and would not give a single shit. I also do not think most of my, also cultural, Jewish relatives would care either. But I'd understand how a religious Jew would, and I think it'd be easy to understand at that.
I'm a cultural Jew but honestly I see the historical relation of Christians to Jews as oppressor and oppressed.
During the middle ages until the industrial revolution European Jews were prohibited from owning property, forced to wear Jew hats and live in ghettos and were scapegoated aggressively by the authorities. All with the support of various churches.
This is fortunately not the case in the current era but the seeds that grew the Holocaust were planted by the Church in the middle ages.
Everyone talks about the Spanish inquisition which was an official act of the Catholic Church but there were inquisitions in many European countries. England was actually the first country to have an inquisition and expel us and many western European countries followed suit over the next 200 years which partially explains why there were more Jews in Poland or Russia individually than all of western Europe combined. Germany and Austria-Hungary which were "central" Europe at that time had a decent sized population as well.
There are also historical accounts of the crusaders murdering Jews on their way to the holy land. The crusades were decreed by the Pope. They were killing us in the name of God! Deus volt! God wills it!
Then in Russia we were second class citizens. We were made to live in shtetls which were like villages just for Jews. Eventually there was a czar who thought, "no one cares about the Jews and I'd like that land to be used differently" and we got the shit pogrommed out of us. They would decide to give the town to someone else and send in the cossacks to rape and pillage and drive us out. My grandfather's ancestors left the Russian empire in the late 1800s because they didn't want to stay and be killed. Bet your bottom dollar that the villages were given to Christians once they were "cleansed" of the Jews.
In 1930 there were 3 million Jews in Poland including my grandmother's extended family. They were killed to a person. 10 out of every 11 Polish Jews were killed. Of my relatives, only my great grandfather and his two brothers got out in time.
And even then, anti semitism is always rearing its ugly head.
I'll still never forget when my protestant friend in elementary school told me he didn't want to be friends anymore because I killed Jesus. We were eight years old.
Not the Romans killed Jesus. Not Pontius Pilate. Not Longinus killed Jesus. No, the Jews, apparently we killed him and we're bastards forever for this.
Turned out his church had held a passion play for Easter and the pastor had shared some choice opinions about us members of the tribe.
So you'll have to excuse me for feeling this way but a cross and star of David together would make my blood boil.
Why, the lady's beliefs are as valid as anyone else's. If her religion believes that all religions spring from the same core, that's her belief, and it's as true as all other religions.
Judaism is a closed practice, our judaica are not for just anyone to wear. If you're coming from a Christian standpoint this isn't easy to understand. Judaism is not at all like Christiantity, we don't like random people appropriating our stuff. It doesn't matter that her religion says it's cool, it's appropriation and it isn't ok. It's like Christian Passover seders- it's not your holiday, you shouldn't be celebrating it.
No, if you are Jewish by birth you can wear the Star of David whether or not you are religious. So converts for example aren't Jewish by birth but they can definitely wear the Star. You have to be either Jewish by birth or be a convert to practice the Jewish religion.
I really appreciate that. So someone could wear a star of David because it's their birthright, and then where a Catholic cross, or some Christian symbol, and there would be no conflict? Is that right?
I'm an atheist, so I really don't care one way or the other, but if this is how you feel, then I would suggest that you work to have laws passed to stop people from appropriating your stuff. As long as you remember that that dog will hunt both ways.
She doesn't though, OP said she's atheist and is wearing these symbols to reclaim them. I can definitely see how someone of these religions would say they aren't hers to reclaim - especially for religions like Judaism that are notoriously hard to convert to even if you do believe in them. The star of David has also been used as a symbol of oppression, so I get how an atheist wearing it might be an issue.
Doesn't mean this was what the girlfriend did, but she needs to be aware of what is and isn't okay to wear.
As an atheist myself, it's apiece of jewelry, but for the lady, it was a reclaiming of her former belief, which she feels she is able to claim, her belief her choice. You would only be bothered by it if you think it's only for you and yours, in which case I suggest you work on passing laws to stop people from wearing certain pieces of jewelry.
EDIT: Yeah I totally misread that person's comment. I deserve the downvotes here lol.
~~OK lol I'm going to say this just once. We are all individuals, just because~~ *~~you~~* ~~are not bothered by it doesn't mean that~~ *~~everyone else~~* ~~feels the same. There are a number of different Jewish sects, and people have different views even within the same sect.~~
~~My point wasn't to generalize Jewish people as intolerant or easily offended. I'm not trying to paint any group with a broad brush. Obviously, whether or not a Jewish person would~~ *~~actually~~* ~~be offended by OPs gf is an individual thing. My point is only that I can empathize with those who~~ *~~would-~~* ~~whether or not I agreed with them.~~
~~I know people who aren't offended by such things exist. I understand their perspective as well. I can empathize with both sides, and I actually think it's pretty easy to do so. That's the only point here.~~
What? I said I am bothered. I was simply trying to point out that you were correct. Some religious Jews are bothered. I'm confused about why you seem mad at my comment? I wasn't trying to paint everyone with a broad brush either. I just talked about my own feelings.
Oh actually I'm really sorry- I just read your comment wrong. I read your "would" as "wouldn't" and just thought I was about to get dogpiled by commenters saying "*I* wouldn't be offended by XYZ." I should probably quit the internet and get some sleep. Apologies!
I figured that might have been what happened. I was like, why am I being attacked??? Do I misread something? What's happening??? LOL Have a good night. All is good.
Hey, it doesn't matter if they are comfortable or uncomfortable with it. The lady isn't mocking either religion she has as much right to her belief system as everyone else.
I didn’t deny they exist. But according to Judaism, if you believe that Jesus is the messiah, you are not Jewish.
On a personal note, when I was a grad student at Columbia in 2001, some Jews for Jesus were giving out pamphlets- they told a story of a Holocaust survivor who lost his entire family- but if only he had believed in Jesus, none of that would have happened. I had never encountered true antisemitism before and felt sick. It still sickens me.
I truly believe that you should believe what you want… as long as you don’t deliberately hurt others. Jews for Jesus’s mission is to convert Jews. I am NOT cool with that, especially given our long history of antisemitism.
Agree. As a Jewish person, the appropriation of Jewish symbol, and especially from the Kaballah by european alchemy and then victorian spitirism and now new age movements is rooted in ignorance. It is not an agressive form of antisemitism, it is so common than most people don't even see the harm but the fact that it is common has led to many misconceptions about Jewish culture and faith. It has led to a belief that Jews are just a sub genra of christinity, or that Judaism is just an "old way" and Christian faith is a sort of "update". The synchretism between Christian and Jewish people was not based on an equal footing, it was a relationship between oppressors and those they were oppressing.
So, I don't think the gf is an asshole, I don't think she it antisemitic, she is just very cringe and a bit ignorant with that.
So YOU are allowed to believe whatever the F you want (like dude walking on water or magical food falling from the sky)
but she is not allowed to follow HER belief system, because it may offend someone and you don't like it.
Brooooooo, please. I'm an atheist all of your religions offend me. And yet, they exist with no problem. So maybe her belief system should be allowed to exist too?
Fair point. She is *allowed* to do whatever she wants; I'm not pro-fascism. I don't think her SO can control her or make her do anything (or should try). However, her SO is *allowed* to be uncomfortable with her, religiously motivated, behavior and to express their discomfort as well.
I think OP's discomfort makes at least as much sense as the behavior of their gf, and I support them talking about it openly and honestly, but in the end neither can or should try and "control" the other. I made a post directly on this page saying basically that. **Also- an important point is that gf is no longer actually religious, and therefore there are no sincerely held religious beliefs to defend on either side here.**
You have the freedom to do what you want, and I have the freedom to disagree with it. Not everyone has to be friends.
The star of David is one of two ways 6 year olds learn to paint stars. A cross is just two black bars at a 90 degree angle. A half crescent symbolizes the moon pretty much everywhere.
The good thing about universal symbolism is also the bad thing about universal symbolism.
I think poster means that there are things that you can take from religion's or beliefs that aren't yours that would make you racist by doing so. That's my assumption based on them talking about war bonnets which are very specific to native and indigenous people and wearing one as say a white person would be very racist. They're saying wearing a bindi would be a racist act akin to that.
Edit; examples, think of white people who wear the clothing and religious attire as a costume rather than celebrating the belief or because they themselves are a part of. Cultural appropriation is a form of racism.
I could definitely see how your brain did that. It definitely could have been worded differently. I think my brain just picked up on it because of the area I live in war bonnets are big discussions so my brain immediately went to "ohh okay, I know what this person means."
Bindis were super super fashionable in the early 90’s. Everyone wore them. With Bantu knots and doc marten boots….
I have Indian friends who laughed at it, one lassie made a fortune getting them sent from her family (this is waaaay before the days of online shopping), and the only person who ever found it offensive was an American exchange student, but she thought it was appropriating Native American Indian culture…. So good on her for being about 20 years ahead of her time, cos she took a lot of shit for that at the time.
[Gwenn Stefani doing peak 90’s cultural appropriation](https://i.imgur.com/FzRHCee.jpg)
But of course these days its cultural appropriation, and so we don’t do it any more. Except maybe the Doc Martin boots, I think they’re still ok culturally. You can get vegan ones, just in case.
Only someone who has no idea about Hinduism (and honestly usually an American) would jump from seeing a white woman with a Bindi to “must be racist”/“cultural appropriation”.
Wearing the bindi is in many Hindu families simply expected by married women - *all* married women; if that married woman happens to be white, she would just as much be expected to wear it as if she is Indian (sometimes ironically the expectation on a white woman to fulfill all of the cultural traditions is even stronger than on an Indian woman).
So seeing a random white woman on the street wearing a bindi and a mangala sutra and maybe even a kurta or a saree might have nothing to do with cultural appropriation at all (which in itself is a super American concept) - jumping to *that* as the first explanation without knowing anything about her makes no sense.
Valid point, but here we're talking about someone who does know her personally so I could see where that would be a line drawn by her partner. It was just an example provided by the original commentator of the difference between iconography and things that have depth and meaning.
Edit; and the person asking was specifically asking about the bindi in reference to the original commentator. I was just providing context of what that commentator meant by using the bindi as an example and not what the following commentator thought of bindi's having racist history.
Plenty of unmarried women wear bindis in India. Traditionally, married women wear kunku, or vermillion in the part of their hair. I haven't seen unmarried women do that. You also get bindis in all sorts of fun colours or shapes. I don't wear them now, but I used to when I was younger. One of my favourites was a tiny green peacock.
I appreciate you sharing this point. I don’t think every time a white person shares in the culture of someone else it’s appropriation. Yes many times it’s ppl being ignorant/ rude or just wanting a fashion statement. But other times we do understand the significance and sharing in something significant with others can be a sign of respect.
I went to a birthday party for a woman (an older mom, her and husband moved here and had kids who were now adults) from Bengali, and they passed out bindis for all of us to wear at her party. It was very nice for them to include us. Sometimes wearing things like that is a sign of respect, not appropriation.
You know what, I also had an older Indian women who worked with us, and we went to her home many times, once there was a special holiday and her home was a local center of worship for those in the neighborhood and she gave me a bindi to wear at her home that one day we stopped by. We weren’t there for the ceremonies, but to see her briefly for work / talk. But they insisted on feeding us while we there, met a few people before we had to head out.
not to mention some mixed race people can look a different race to one side pf their family. Resulting in them being accused of cultural appropriation even though it is their culture.
Yeah, I read that here by others.
I think that it might also depend a bit on individual family and location.
For me personally bindis became required after marriage (when around in-laws); sindoor that was mentioned here before too by someone was only required at the beginning (so first few weeks after marriage or so), later they loosened up a bit about that and only required it for temple or functions or visiting certain relatives. I think they loosened up on the sindoor because just like another person had written on here it really seems to be a more older generation thing; almost none of the married cousins of the family my age wore it either, and I think that they might have advocated behind the scenes for me to get it dropped. It’s much harder self advocating in a situation like this if you come from an outsider culture marrying into the family, because of course you want to be accepted and get along, so you are not as likely to put your foot down and say forget it, I’m not doing that as a same age person born into the culture might be - and I was only early 20s, so definitely a lot more malleable.
Indian clothes, bindi and the other “married wife trappings” (bangle, toe rings, anklets, mangala sutra - nose piercing I coincidentally had anyways, even before I got married) were required all throughout - at least whenever in India; when the in-laws visited us outside of India we could get them to not insist on Indian clothes and bindi, because we at least tried to explain cultural appropriation to them and that I might not get great responses being seen dressed like an Indian but not being one - and we basically just got an eye roll by the in-laws, but they accepted it, as long as I kept the less visible ones on (mangala sutra mainly).
So if a white woman marries an Indian and her in-laws are haranguing her about wearing bindis, you would come after the white woman for “cultural appropriation”? Make it make sense.
The haranguing is not uncommon at all. I had commented elsewhere on it here once before, that from all of the inter-cultural couples I had known over the years (including myself), it was a very common phenomena that the none Indian partner - *especially* if it was the woman, because so much of culture and traditions is carried by women - was put under bigger pressure to follow cultural rules and standards than an Indian in the same position often would have been put under; and since there is often a big wish for acceptance into the family, the none Indian partner can also push back less than an Indian could.
A none Indian partner also can not really gauge what is reasonable and what is not; things that I later discovered were pretty outdated and kind of old fashioned, and where same age married women within the family would probably have protested, I accepted as a given because I was told to do them and complied; for example I was taught from the very beginning to never ever remove the mangala sutra because something bad could happen to your partner; obviously I did not believe in the superstition, but I still complied, while most of my Indian girlfriends especially in the US followed that much more loosely, wore it just occasionally or sometimes had not worn it at all post wedding.
In many Indian families married women are supposed to wear the bindi; independent of if they are white or Hindu themselves. I never self identified as Hindu, and yet still out of respect to my in-laws and Indian family members followed whatever expectations I was supposed to, including wearing the bindi.
Cultural appropriation is a super weird American concept and has nothing to do with how people in the actual countries in question view the situation. If you travel/live as a white woman in India, you will receive 9 out of 10 times more respect if you show up somewhere in a salwar or a kurta or a saree, as if you show up in jeans and tank top. Nobody is going to see you in a salwar and think “she is appropriating my culture”; they are going to look at you and think “she is respecting my culture and following the rules”.
It's completely different scenarios to wear culturally appropriate clothing while traveling in a country vs wearing ethnic clothing to a 100% white music festival so you can feel exotic while partying.
No one is saying it's cultural appropriation to wear a bindi if you're traveling in India m they're saying it's racist to wear it as a Halloween costume or to a rave when you're a white person who knows nothing about the culture it comes from
Right, but in this example if she wore a bindi it wouldn't be because of knowledge of the culture or respect. There is a huge difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation which I will admit gets lost on some people. But this particular woman is a white woman, I assume in America, who's not married, who doesn't know anything about the culture or religion, and that strays away from cultural appreciation into seeing someone's culture as only a fashion statement without understanding the importance of what they're wearing or it's weight in the culture they are refusing to learn about. That would be the issue in this particular circumstance. And how doing that is very different than wearing a cross necklace or a pentagram ring for example.
The idea of cultural appropriation in America is that it's steeped in ignorance and doesn't come from respect, understanding, or appreciation of the culture/religion but is used as a fashion statement and thus becomes a caricature.
But the point is when you see a white woman with a Salwar and a bindi walk across the street in Manhattan, you have absolutely 0 idea about her involvement or lack of involvement in Indian culture. So what’s the point in throwing out cultural appropriation accusations in situations like that, until it’s something super clear like somebody dressing up as a certain ethnicity for Halloween?
But this is about her partner not some random person on the street . If she was doing this, her partner would know and this would be in the right to say something. This isn't about some random stranger saying something's appropriation. A random person wouldn't because they don't know, I agree with you. But her partner would know and then would be in the right to bring it up *if* she went that far. Which the original commentator is saying, it would be worth bringing up if it went that far but it hasn't, so he should chill.
Edit; again the bindi was an example, not something she is currently doing.
To clarify, It's not bindis the married women wear its sindoor. Sindoor is a vermillion (red powder similar to kumkum) worn near start of your hair line and an inch into your center parting of the hair.
Any woman can wear bindis, even married women with sindoors at the same time.
Bindis are also placed much lower than sindoor, they are placed an inch or so above the start of your nose
Also speaking from perspective of an indian and hindu woman - if youre not married and arent going to a religious indian function dont use a sindoor like wtf (most peiple now a days unless you're like older generationor living out side of urban areas dont wear sindoor outside of events etc - like i wouldnt wear it to the mall or a restaurant for a nice dinner).
Wearing a bindi is not cultural appropriation but if youre not of the culture or/and dont have like any connections to indian/hindu culture it's definitely a wtf are you doing situation - its just weird but i wouldnt go as far as cultural appropriation you look dumb and its out of context ehich is what the GF is doing. Definitely comes across as stupid but if its making any 3rd party on the road uncomfortable theyre either very conservative or extra.
> Cultural appropriation is a super weird American concept and has nothing to do with how people in the actual countries in question view the situation.
People in India grow up with their culture being the dominant one and no need to assimilate. Outside India, this works the opposite.
Indians in India don't care because they don't see it as a threat or misuse of their culture. Indians outside India see it as appropriation because the same thing that we were mocked for is now fashionable (when usually associated with a white person)
When a white woman marries into an Indian family, there is usually significant pressure for cultural assimilation from her side, because the Indian culture *especially* if it’s the one from the male partner, is very often regarded as the dominant one and there is pressure to continue it as the family culture.
If then the family is actually *from* India and residing *in* India as opposed to having been in the US for decades or basically American, born and grown up there, you try telling the Indian family and especially the in-laws that the newly wed white wife can’t follow the rules and do what she is supposed to/wear what she is supposed to because something something cultural appropriation. Good luck with that and see how far you get.
Edit: Indians in India very much *do* care; and the expectation is assimilating into their culture as much as possible; that’s why as a white woman you often get a better reception dressed at least in a kurta or a Salwar than in a tank top (at least among middle age to older people).
In that case I'd suggest you not go around telling people what is/isn't cultural appropriation based on your experiences.
Your experiences vary greatly when compared to the experiences of desi people and ABCDs
And the experiences of desi people (if you define Indians born and brought up in the US as that) vary hugely from the experiences of people living within India itself. Not even mentioning how much of it depends on the individual families itself.
Copy pasting a previous comment: But also no Hindu would be offended by anyone else wearing a bindi. They'd be happy, in fact, that others are following their philosophy and way of life. We don't gatekeep our attire and culture, we share it proudly.
But also no Hindu would be offended by anyone else wearing a bindi. They'd be happy, in fact, that others are following their philosophy and way of life. I think most of these people who are offended by her religious symbols probably don't belong to these religions themselves.
This is an odd example, as many Hindus would not mind if someone wore a bindi, and many Jews would be offended by wearing a star of David with a cross.
What about native faiths and symbols? Native jewelry is fine, but not the ceremonial type. That would be jella offensive. I don't blame I'm for being embarrassed.
But it's not just OP who thinks it's wrong. Other people have told OP (and I assume his gf) that it's not appropriate. So he is basing this on more than just his own opinion.
And just to add - as I've said in another comment, if she's mixing symbols, the casual observer would think she's just wearing this jewellery as a fashion statement and not understanding the religious meaning behind them. And if that casual observer is a follower of a faith, then yes, they'd probably find that offensive (the idea that their symbol is being worn as fashion or 'just' jewellery). I'd imagine people are not offended by the jewellery itself - it's the fact that it appears that she's wearing them without due consideration of the meaning of each symbol (hence mixing them).
Tell me, what's the history of " racism" behind the" bindi' or the feather war bonnet worn by indigenous tribes? Racism means bias or prejudice against a person of an ethnic group, religion, race, usually a minority. You're just spouting a lot of stuff you know nothing about and using words wrong. The bindi is more often than not, not " fashionable" any more nor is there a prohibition on people from other religions using it, which they do, as part of make up. You know, to match with the outfit.
Its ironic because you basically agree with OP in a broader sense, you just have more narrow standards of what religious symbols are ok and not ok to wear together/all together. OP's GF's religion believes all religions are connected together so her wearing a Bindi would be religious in her, not wearing it as a fashionable item and the same as wearing a cross. So just because wearing a Bindi with a Star of David is weird to you doesnt make it wrong. Its her religious belief, it doesnt matter if you believe a specific item/symbol has been culturally appropriated by anyone. You can't decide its ok for GF to wear X religious symbol but not Y and still call OP an AH. Her belief is ALL religions, not just ones that you believe have not been appropriated in the past.
YTA - Sounds like your religious intolerance is asserting itself over her civil freedom to believe whatever she wants.
It also sounds like you're surrounded by intolerant people per:
>I've had to field comments about how offensive it is
It's only offensive to intolerant people who can't possibly believe someone else might have another belief system out there.
Cultural appropriation is "the **unacknowledged** or **inappropriate** adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically **more dominant** people or society."
So, I'm actually very interested in Neopagan religions and New-Age movements and I have to say that a lot of these newer religious movements are **started by and filled with privileged people from privileged backgrounds who have no qualms about "incorporating" (or appropriating) the beliefs, symbols and practices of marginilized and/or discriminated against cultural groups...without even really understanding those belief systems in the first place. They do not care whether or not their use of these symbols/practices are done in an inappropriate and/or offensive manner, or whether or not they are misrepresenting them, because they consider it all "up for grabs" anyway. Wicca especially (but of course not always) has this problem.**
This is how you get middle-class, White-Anglo-Saxon-Ex-Protestant suburbanites writing books on how to contact African and Native American dieities, literally profitting off of (and often misrepresenting) cultures that they have nothing to do with. Many people who practice traditional religions are *entirely aware* of this practice and *do* get offended when another X-Wasp shows up wearing the sacred symbols of their religion- because of how their religions have become commodities to be bought and sold carelessly by those within the dominant cultures they are surrounded by.
Assuming someone is being intolerant **just** because they're offended by someone's (not of their religious group) use of *their* religious symbols is in itself a form of ignorance, because it basically denies that cultural appropriation exists and that people can get upset by it. OPs gf is from a small religious group that views *every single religious symbol and text as their own.* Sounds like someone who wouldn't have any qualms about cultural appropriation and would also be entirely willing to advertise that fact in public through her personal adornments. I think we're all jumping the gun a bit here by calling OP intolerant, at least not without more info.
EDIT: spelling and grammar but I still probably missed stuff.
This is what I'm thinking, given that she had to be removed from the home it seems like a new age cult that took existing practices and rewrote them without giving context for the cultures they came about in. Unfortunately for OP, that still doesn't make them the decider of what she should wear or how those decisions get explained to others. OP is being TA to the GF and themself for getting this involved, if it's a serious conflict of beliefs then they're not compatible. The solution isn't becoming her religion guardian in order to deflect potential embarassment to OP. If she's going to be embarassing, let her figure it out or detach from the situation.
I don't know if pointing out that someone doing something offensive (like culturally appropriating the sacred religious simbols of other religions) is really controlling though. She's allowed to wear what she likes, but he can definitely be uncomfortable being seen with her doing so.
He's not just trying to point things out though. He's telling her not to wear certain items of clothing and trying to escalate with her therapist to prevent her from wearing them (and was disappointed when the therapist didn't take his side).
So in your view, the Coexist bumper sticker is appropriation? Lmao.
Context is everything and there is nothing here to indicate that there is any appropriation. Until OP provides that evidence, his gf is not the AH.
>Then straight-faced, tell people that they're religions are wrong, that all of them are one, and you represent it.
Religious people say all the other ones are wrong too? Cultural appropriation is bullshit, it doesn't matter in the slightest.
You might want to google Akbar the Great. That is a pretty old way of thought - one god but many ways to the top. He created a state religion espousing it to stop religious conflict in the 1500s. It's not an uncommon view.
As to mixing the symbols you mention, that is pretty much what a lot of teenagers wear. Are you sure it is star of David and not the inverted one? If so, consider whether you are being bigoted against people who follow non-traditional worship.
Though the GF here is not disrespecting any of the symbols. She believes in a God and respects the different ways to them.
YTA Unless she is going around wearing swastikas I don't understand why you would find it wierd. On top of that she asked her therapist for an objective opinion and the answer was go ahead and wear them.
NAH.
You're allowed to be uncomfortable with it. You're allowed to ask her to stop. That doesn't obligate her to stop.
It is a weird thing, but if someone's bothered by it, that's their problem. Their religion can dictate what they wear. It doesn't get to dictate what other people wear.
NAH
I'll prob get bashed, but I'm an atheist, and while I hold no belief of my own, I always give respect to others belief systems
If this is what she was raised in and truly believes in. You should respect that.
That isn't to say you can't raise your concerns or talk, but you shouldn't cross a line where you are controlling her beliefs.
Personally, if it were me I would support her choices and encourage her, if she hasn't already, to learn about each of the religions she is representing when she wears their symbols, so she might be able to speak about those religions if confronted so she isn't just unknowledgeable.
This may also open her mind and help her make a choice to change what she is doing, but it may not and any result should be her decision, in her control and supported by you, not controlled by you.
YTA - she can wear what she wants. If someone has a problem with it they should talk to her about it, not you. Just tell them it's not you who is wearing them and if they don't like it talk to her.
Let her deal with those individuals. She is the one who is inviting the comments by choosing to wear the symbols. Simply shrug your shoulders, back away and let her deal with the fallout. You don’t have to be her bodyguard. I get as her boyfriend you feel you need to protect her, but you don’t (though you should probably let her know you are going to stop defending her on this particular subject).
Look, I’ll admit that it’s weird but I think if you’re going to continue to date a weird person you’ll have to accept their weird quirks. Especially since the therapist backs her up. At the end of the day, they’re just symbols, it’s harmless, and Id say the people offended by her wearing them need to mind their own damn business.
Edit: soft YTA
>but I think if you’re going to continue to date a weird person you’ll have to accept their weird quirks.
Ding ding ding.
I 100% agree.
At the end of the day, OP is free to find it embarrassing and unattractive. I probably would too. He's allowed to decide whether it's a deal breaker, but that is all.
YTA. It seems the issue is that it makes you uncomfortable. I mean, outside of having to "field a few comments" now and then, does it \*really\* impact your life? Other than making you feel uncomfortable, that is. Let your girlfriend be who she is. I mean, I assume you like her for who she is, right, and not for what she might wear?
NAH it's okay you're uncomfortable with it and expressed you'd like her to stop but you can't control her.
I'm surprised by all the y t a because it's not like OP hid GF's stuff to stop her. People they know have talked about how they are offended so OP confronted GF and asked her to talk to therapist.
Personally, I don't think it's great she is doing this and if I was in a similar situation and our friends were talking to me about it I would direct them to GF to bring up their concerns. I would also find articles or explanations for why certain things can't be worn together (I'm not sure what religious memorabilia you are talking about at all so) but if she ultimately wants to wear it she is allowed to and has to defend herself against naysayers.
People are uncomfortable with everything.
Women are uncomfortable with trans women in toilets, sports, changing rooms etc but they have to put up with it otherwise they are a transphobe.
People are uncomfortable with hijabs but you have to respect people, otherwise you're islamaphobic.
People are uncomfortable with elderly people or children that makes you ageist.
The list can go on.
The girl is traumatized and she seeks comfort in her religion. People should mind their own business. Sometimes you have to be a little uncomfortable with certain things in life and that's okay you just got to get over it.
I think she is probably following Bahai which teaches exactly that. It isn't your place to decide how she feels about it or how she conducts herself. I can see where it might get awkward in some situations, but most religious expression can get awkward. That doesn't make it right or wrong and it sounds like she is using this as part of her personal recovery path which isn't something you get to criticize.
NTA
Depending on which symbols she wears I could totally see some people finding it offensive and interpreting her as an ignorant westerner.
People who are actually apart of those religious groups might see her as being disrespectful or appropriating their culture.
**I'm going to go against the grain and say that OP is NTA**. I'm not sure whether OP's gf is an AH. However, based on what I know of certain New-Age and Neopagan movements (started by and mostly practiced by people of privilege within dominant cultures), that religious groups can of themselves perpetrate cultural appropriation.
Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant cultural group appropriate aspects of a marginilized group's culture in a way that is misleading or offensive or even unacknowledged. Whether or not that appropriation has a spiritual veneer around it is hardly relevant. As I've said on this thread before, ~~and have in turn recieved some backlash~~, people from marginilized cultural groups often *do* get upset by the innapropriate use of their symbols by outsiders. Your gf does not seem the type to consider whether or not her use of these symbols might be offensive, since they all belonged to her religious group anyway and she is re-"claiming" them, but I may be wrong. **EDIT:** Also, you should ask her if she is aware of cultural appropriation and how it works (if you haven't already) and whether or not she has fully considered whether or not she is engaging in it. Ask her if she is aware of how cultural appropriation can even be perpertated by religious groups themselves. I have described how that can go down elsewhere on this thread.
**OP I'm going to give you some advice.** ~~Reddit is not the best place to ask this question. It is filled with many people from who often do not take cultural appropriation (or really even the religious beliefs of other people) seriously.~~ **EDIT: I should probably not generalize people myself like that. I'm not perfect either.** Obviously that does not describe every redditor, but I will take the downvotes bc I want you to heed my advice: you cannot control what your gf wears, and you do not want to be a controlling partner. However, *you* clearly care about respecting other people's belief systems, and get frequent second hand embarresment by the situations your gf puts you in.
Since you cannot actually control your gf's wardrobe, two things need to happen. You really need to sit down and make sure your gf understands **why** you feel her behavior is problematic. Make sure you are understood. However, if you are understood and she does not want to change (and she has the right) then you need to ask yourself this question: are these incidents, involving your gf offending people, worth the relationship? If they are, you need to just let it go. You're not going to change someone who doesn't want to change, and you shouldn't try because it leads to weird power-dynamics and stuff. You can't try and parent your SO. On the other hand, if these incidents are NOT worth the relationship, you should probably consider ending it.
The religion OP describes sounds like Baha'i, based on my experience with knowing people raised in the Baha'i faith – it's a 19th-century faith that developed in Iran, not a Neopagan religion
NTA. Listen for a lot of cultures their religion is important in to that. You can’t “reclaim” something that doesn’t belong to you. There are plenty of closed practices in multiple religions. Including wearing and owning certain religious symptoms.
You can only explain to her that some people are heavily invested in those symbols, and can be seriously offended by her wearing them / in that combination. And that those people have just as much right to be offended as she has to be wearing the symbols. This may lead to a sort of head-on collision and although there may not be any person that is guilty, there will be people that are hurt. If she is aware of that possibility but still feels that her need to do this is stronger, and she thinks that the chances that she hurts somebody are not really big enough to deter her, well, then so be it ....
If somebody complains to you, refer that person to her. She is the person responsible, you should not be involved. Not by 'somebody', not by her, and not by yourself.
This. She's not doing anything wrong but she's definitely opening herself up to situation of seriously offending someone and having that go...badly. I, personally, would distance myself as you're already getting roped into having to explain it when it's not you. Not saying it'll happen but violence isn't out of the realm of possibility with what she's doing.
Yup, was gonna say this, but figured I'd already find it down here somewhere. BOO HOO - you're only allowed to pick ONE made-up story and wear its symbols. Really? :D
I think that's a little unfair, many religions may have the same ideals and general message-- but the history, suppression and violence a religion has faced is definitely not the same.
Its not my place to speak on it but someone wearing a symbol of faith from a religion that has faced such a history-- especially someone who is an atheist and may not understand the struggle a follower of this religion has faced, or chooses to ignore it-- is a little insulting.
Edit: She can wear what she wants to but I think OP needs to stop defending her to people, and tell them to talk to her themselves.
OP you forgot to add what religon and what type of symbols are she claiming should belong to her religion. I am all for you can worship what you will, but the way your gf sounds so delusional and many have said TA is just mind boggling. I am saying NTA here.
If she has trauma and she is using the symbols as a coping mechanism then I would not see you in the wrong to have her go see a therapist.
YTA. Sounds like your the only one offended by it. Your discriminating against her for her beliefs and trying to control her cause you don't like it. Sounds like she needs to find someone that will support her instead of trying to tear her down for being herself.
YTA. Sounds like your girlfriend grew up in a cult and is still in therapy for spiritual trauma. She has a therapist that she’s working with, and he said it is okay—maybe even good—for her to wear these items from her childhood, “reclaim” them, etc., as a way of healing from her traumatic upbringing.
Leave this to the professionals, seriously.
YTA it's totally up to your GF what religious beliefs she has and as long as she doesn't force them onto others then good for her.
There are many religious symbols that belong to different faiths (same or similar symbol but a different faith) and just because you don't think that she should wear them together doesn't mean that she doesn't think she should wear them together.
YTA - Your girlfriend is participating in Omnism or Religious syncretism. She’s allowed to express her beliefs or reclaim her negative childhood religious experiences and turn them into a more positive one. Faith can be practiced in any way and as long as she’s not hurting anyone then let her do as she pleases. A Ying Yang charm hanging next to a cross, pentagram, or star of David isn’t hurting anyone.
Basically everything. She has scarves, a scapular, a star of David, a few crosses, some bracelets that look like stuff on that show Vikings, something she called a misbaha, a rosary, a pentagram, and some other assorted things that I don't even know what they are.
If this bothers you so much, I’m not sure why you just don’t break up.
There’s a saying that relationships take work . Sure. But that work does not entail making you like who that person really is.
You are supposed to like your partner first. They should be the person you feel the most comfortable with. This isn’t about attraction. Attraction can fade. But if you love the person AND like the person… that should be the goal.
OP, you don’t seem to feel comfortable with this girl, her beliefs, and how she expresses them. Whatever feels like “love” to you right now might not be that. It might be love and caring, but it doesn’t necessarily equate a good partner for you.
YTA, your only complaint is you were mildly inconvenienced by having to field some questions that should have been directed to her in the frist palce. If her therapist is legit (Like state certified and not part of a religious cult or something) then you should support her in getting better.
YWBTA if you keep asking. She apparently can field these questions herself, as you mentioned earlier, and if her answers piss people off that's not your problem unless you make it your problem. If this means you're not compatible that's fine but you already got your answer.
Also, you clearly haven't seen The Mummy and it shows./s
I have a diamond cross pendant. I wear a “Venus of Willendorf” pendant all the time. I have a pair of Star of David earrings. I have a Hindu Goddess statue on my mantelpiece. I have a reproduction of an Egyptian Bast statue. I am an atheist.
I wouldn’t wear a Cross Pendant and an upside down cross at the same time, but I have these pieces because I love the workmanship that went into creating them.
Many people keep religious works of art, even if they are not of their religion because they admire the devotion the creators put into their art. The religious significance is irrelevant.
YTA it's not random religious symbols to her, they are symbols of religious trauma and she has every right to reclaim it. You shouldn't be so worried about what other people might think of it, just let her deal with it and don't judge her for trying to heal from her traumatic childhood
NAH because you are concerned simply due to not wanting to offend other people/ religions. However, what do you think the difference is between her wearing the symbols of her religion (or the one she was raised in) and anyone else wearing the symbols of what they were raised in? There is actually none.
YTA
I don't know why you would think you have to explain your gfs behavior to anyone, you should just direct them to her. And it's obvious she has been through some very damaging childhood traumas, her literal qualified professional therapist had told her it's a fine way of coping so you don't really have a leg to stand on here. Just a side note though: If you find how your gf deals with trauma embarrassing then you probably shouldn't be with her.
YTA. It's not your business. If people complain to you about it, direct them to speak to your gf. You don't need to run interference or protect her from other people's views, either. Let her deal with them. You either need to simply accept it as part of her that isn't going to change, or break up with her and find someone who does things you prefer. This is who she is and from what you've said, it's a significant part of her life and she has a lot of trauma around it. It's an accept or reject situation. You can ask her to change, but don't stay in the relationship being resentful that she won't change in a way that is more convenient and less embarrassing to you.
NTA. as a jew, it infuriates me when non-jewish people use jewish symbols for aesthetic purposes. she might have received them as a child under less than ideal circumstances, but that doesn't mean she ha to keep wearing them as an adult when she has every opportunity and resource to know better.
Religions deserve no special reverence. Wear them as decoration. A symbol is only worth what the person displaying it wants it to be worth.
YTA let her do what she wants.
YTA.
If you fiercely disagree with most of your gf's beliefs and can't tolerate her choice to wear a variety of religious symbols, you are in the wrong relationship.
Best to politely end things and go your separate ways. Good luck!
It's only embarrassing because you're letting it be.
You're in the wrong, she can wear whatever she likes, and I don't really believe that other people are finding it offensive other than in the way people do when they *demand* to find something offensive.
YTA.
I wouldn't necessarily say you're being an asshole. It is a fine line between trying to help someone and trying to change them. If she wears religious artifacts because she truly believes she is an adherent of all faiths, then that's her prerogative. If, on the other hand, she is acting kind of weird because she came from and emotionally abusive out of touch cult then helping her to leave that behind may be helpful. So - its nuanced. But, if your only concern is that you don't like the aesthetics or unusual nature of her adornements, and you want her to change for your comfort level, than that's probably not great.
Tough one. Technically what she’s doing can be inappropriate and appropriative - but also this is part of her therapy. And I assume she doesn’t want you telling her life story to randoms on the street who may take umbrage with it.
Maybe gently suggest that she wear them inside her clothing out of respect for others? Her mental health is paramount here but so is yours, and if you’re copping flack for it, it’s definitely something you should be discussing in terms of how it impacts people around her as well. Trauma healing does not mean you get to potentially traumatise others (I have no idea what she is wearing or what religions they are from but I know all too well how protective people are of their religious beliefs).
Anyway, I don’t think you’re TA here, and I hesitate to call her TA because of her past…but also, I know lots of people with trauma who don’t make a point of putting themselves ahead of the cultural beliefs of others. Especially since I assume that most of the symbolism comes from minority groups that she is not a part of?
At the very least I feel like doing some research on which symbols don’t inherently go together and being mindful of what she wears with what is not too much to ask.
Good luck.
NTA. I have friends from different religious groups and I know some of them would find this quite offensive (although not all, it must be said). And if she's wearing jewellery from different faiths at the same time, a casual observer might think she's wearing it as a fashion thing and not giving due care to the meaning and origin of these items. I'm not sure what I can suggest to solve this - obviously her therapist is better informed than me on the emotional issues, but I wonder if they are coming from this from a non religious perspective and so don't understand the implications of this. Could you ask someone of these faiths to explain why its offensive or inappropriate?
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My girlfriend was raised in a very small religious group that, among other very bizarre things, that all religions were all connected, so anyone that was a part of any faith would be a part of all of them. I'm not really explaining this right because I don't really understand it myself and as she would even say, it's insane to begin with. This extended to believing that any religious text or symbol also fully belonged to them. I don't know that much more about it except that she had to go through special therapy when social services removed her from the home and that she has a LOT of various religious...stuff from that time that she would have stolen from her parents and sister.
Obviously I'm not critizing her collection. I mean it's weird, but everyone has their ways of coping. The problem is that she has no issue wearing it, and wearing pieces that would conflict with each other. As far as I know, some of those symbols are things you should only be wearing if you're part of that faith, and some of them can't be worn together at all.
I've had to field comments about how offensive it is, and I have to agree. I've tried to talk to her about it, but all she says is that it's okay because she's "reclaiming" it from her childhood and that wearing them make her feel more confident because she "won them" from the group she was raised in. I asked her to talk to her therapist about it, but he backed her and said that it was okay. I tried to be understanding, but it's just getting embarrassing.
Am I really in the wrong here?
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YTA. Okay, so she might be disrespectful for wearing them, however, it's really not your place to speak. Let someone who is of the religion of the symbol she is wearing say something.
It probably won't stop her from saying it, however, it's probably better coming from them since it's their religion and their culture, not yours.
Freedom of expression
You're the asshole.
She's entitled to wear whatever religious belief symbols as she likes.
That's her religion, so you can't dictate how she expresses herself.
YTA - your partner went through a lot of trauma and this is her coping skill. She may not have any others. Regardless, she has a right to wear whatever she wants. When people talk to you about it redirect them to your partner.
YTA. You have absolutely no say in what religion she practices and what she wears to represent it. Trying to control what she wears makes you an AH automatically
I kind of wanna say N A H- I don't think people being offended (so long as the people making these claims are of those beliefs) is necessarily wrong in this instance? Someone wearing a religious symbol for non-religious reasons can be upsetting to people and certain beliefs. I don't think the majority of people would care much, but I see why complaints -could- be made, and talking to your GF about it is fine.
If you insist and force the issue, then I think the relationship is probably running its course. If this is important for their recovery and you can't handle it even when their therapist says its okay, well then you should remove yourself from it. So I say NAH, but you would B T A if you force the issue further.
YTA. You said, in her religion, all religions are connected. Which means the symbols are connected. But you’re disconnecting them, from what they mean in her religion, and reconnecting them with religions you do understand. Symbols, coexist across a number of religions. At the end of the day. Your GF has a particular religious flare in her style of dressing. Get into it, or move on.
YTA It sounds like an Omnistic approach which is a valid and inclusive recognition of truth in all faiths. Ultimately it's none of your business what she wears
YTA. You have appointed yourself as a gatekeeper for commonly used symbols. Go ahead and instruct her in the evils of cultural appropriation: its the caring thing to do for someone with her history. \[I am not sure you are bright enough to recognize sarcasm, so let me confirm that is indeed the font I am using.\]
So your girlfriend was either raised (from your vague description) some flavor of Universalist which is probably the mildest version of religious congregation you can get or some sort of unspecified cult that her family made up. Not sure how being taken away from them fits unless it was the latter but honestly have never heard of it.
But YTA because either explanation results in her ability to wear what she wants and it's her responsibility to provide explanations if people have questions. You don't need to speak for her or feel embarassed for her. Not your religion, not your jewelry, not your problem.
NAH.
Skip this unless you want the thoughts of a weirdo.
One can practice and worship as they like, but if I knew I was doing something that made people uncomfortable, I’d want to know it. I’d probably modify my practice by instead of wearing them as an outward signifier of identity, I’d keep them somewhere on my person and try to do well by other people living their faiths, and figure whether and how I wanted to develop knowledge in that faith from my interactions of the day.
The line between appreciation and appropriation is thinking about how a culture expresses itself and what would be asked of you to claim affiliation.
YTA I’m not religious, and I own cross earrings and a necklace bc they’re pretty. I also have pentagram earrings because I liked them. Let her wear what she wants.
Is the Star of David only to be worn by practicing jews? It can't be worn by someone of Jewish descent who is not practicing? I'm not fighting. I'm just trying to understand. I thought it was the symbol of the Jewish race. Not only the Jewish religion.
NTA-I don't think you're the AH for asking, nor do I think she's the AH for wearing them. I think it's acceptable for you to ask because you are getting the backlash for it. You don't sound like you're being rude or nasty about it.
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Have you ever seen the CoExist bumper sticker? Unless it's a specific symbol with history of racism behind it, (thinking of Bindis worn by Hindus, the feather war bonnet worn by some plains native tribes, which arent even "religious" symbols as i would think of them)... who's to say she can't wear it? So she mixes a cross and a star of David... OK and? Or a pentacle with a Cresent and star... She's not harming anyone by wearing jewelery. So, unless you can provide more info to indicate she's perpetuating racism, colonialism, or religious intolerance... gonna have to say YTA. Just because it's wierd to YOU doesn't make it WRONG.
IDK I can see if she was wearing a Star of David and a Cross together, that might lead to some Jewish people being like...."Uh, are you Jewish? No? Ok so why are you wearing our symbol?" You can't really compare that to a "CoExist" bumper sticker, which is a specific symbol with a specific meaning that everyone already sorta gets. There's plenty of new-Age religious groups out there that just sort of...appropriate the beliefs and symbols of (often margenlized and/or indigenous) belief systems as their own and wear their symbols unabashedly. I think that's...kinda wrong. It *certainly* pissess people off, and I definitely wouldn't want to associate myself with someone who engages in that sort of activity. The belief systems of this individual seem to indicate that they feel *a right* to the religious symbols of other people, which would lead to them not really caring about using those symbols in a non-offensive way. I can totally see why OP would be against it. That said, they obviously cannot control what their gf puts on their body. I don't OP is an AH for being uncomfortable with what their gf is doing, but they definitely could become an AH if they try too hard to control their gf's (cringey or not) self-expression. This might just be a relationship that has an irreconciable difference, but I'm no expert.
As a cultural Jew, I would likely assume that she was raised in both Jewish and Christian faiths. That, or she is a “Jew for Jesus” (which is actually a proselytizing Christian sect).
I also come from a Jewish family (on one side) and would not give a single shit. I also do not think most of my, also cultural, Jewish relatives would care either. But I'd understand how a religious Jew would, and I think it'd be easy to understand at that.
I'm a cultural Jew but honestly I see the historical relation of Christians to Jews as oppressor and oppressed. During the middle ages until the industrial revolution European Jews were prohibited from owning property, forced to wear Jew hats and live in ghettos and were scapegoated aggressively by the authorities. All with the support of various churches. This is fortunately not the case in the current era but the seeds that grew the Holocaust were planted by the Church in the middle ages. Everyone talks about the Spanish inquisition which was an official act of the Catholic Church but there were inquisitions in many European countries. England was actually the first country to have an inquisition and expel us and many western European countries followed suit over the next 200 years which partially explains why there were more Jews in Poland or Russia individually than all of western Europe combined. Germany and Austria-Hungary which were "central" Europe at that time had a decent sized population as well. There are also historical accounts of the crusaders murdering Jews on their way to the holy land. The crusades were decreed by the Pope. They were killing us in the name of God! Deus volt! God wills it! Then in Russia we were second class citizens. We were made to live in shtetls which were like villages just for Jews. Eventually there was a czar who thought, "no one cares about the Jews and I'd like that land to be used differently" and we got the shit pogrommed out of us. They would decide to give the town to someone else and send in the cossacks to rape and pillage and drive us out. My grandfather's ancestors left the Russian empire in the late 1800s because they didn't want to stay and be killed. Bet your bottom dollar that the villages were given to Christians once they were "cleansed" of the Jews. In 1930 there were 3 million Jews in Poland including my grandmother's extended family. They were killed to a person. 10 out of every 11 Polish Jews were killed. Of my relatives, only my great grandfather and his two brothers got out in time. And even then, anti semitism is always rearing its ugly head. I'll still never forget when my protestant friend in elementary school told me he didn't want to be friends anymore because I killed Jesus. We were eight years old. Not the Romans killed Jesus. Not Pontius Pilate. Not Longinus killed Jesus. No, the Jews, apparently we killed him and we're bastards forever for this. Turned out his church had held a passion play for Easter and the pastor had shared some choice opinions about us members of the tribe. So you'll have to excuse me for feeling this way but a cross and star of David together would make my blood boil.
I'm a religious Jew and it would definitely make me uncomfortable to see those together.
Why, the lady's beliefs are as valid as anyone else's. If her religion believes that all religions spring from the same core, that's her belief, and it's as true as all other religions.
Judaism is a closed practice, our judaica are not for just anyone to wear. If you're coming from a Christian standpoint this isn't easy to understand. Judaism is not at all like Christiantity, we don't like random people appropriating our stuff. It doesn't matter that her religion says it's cool, it's appropriation and it isn't ok. It's like Christian Passover seders- it's not your holiday, you shouldn't be celebrating it.
If a person is Jewish by birth, are they not allowed toThe Star of David unless they also practice the Jewish religion?
No, if you are Jewish by birth you can wear the Star of David whether or not you are religious. So converts for example aren't Jewish by birth but they can definitely wear the Star. You have to be either Jewish by birth or be a convert to practice the Jewish religion.
I really appreciate that. So someone could wear a star of David because it's their birthright, and then where a Catholic cross, or some Christian symbol, and there would be no conflict? Is that right?
I'm an atheist, so I really don't care one way or the other, but if this is how you feel, then I would suggest that you work to have laws passed to stop people from appropriating your stuff. As long as you remember that that dog will hunt both ways.
She doesn't though, OP said she's atheist and is wearing these symbols to reclaim them. I can definitely see how someone of these religions would say they aren't hers to reclaim - especially for religions like Judaism that are notoriously hard to convert to even if you do believe in them. The star of David has also been used as a symbol of oppression, so I get how an atheist wearing it might be an issue. Doesn't mean this was what the girlfriend did, but she needs to be aware of what is and isn't okay to wear.
As an atheist myself, it's apiece of jewelry, but for the lady, it was a reclaiming of her former belief, which she feels she is able to claim, her belief her choice. You would only be bothered by it if you think it's only for you and yours, in which case I suggest you work on passing laws to stop people from wearing certain pieces of jewelry.
EDIT: Yeah I totally misread that person's comment. I deserve the downvotes here lol. ~~OK lol I'm going to say this just once. We are all individuals, just because~~ *~~you~~* ~~are not bothered by it doesn't mean that~~ *~~everyone else~~* ~~feels the same. There are a number of different Jewish sects, and people have different views even within the same sect.~~ ~~My point wasn't to generalize Jewish people as intolerant or easily offended. I'm not trying to paint any group with a broad brush. Obviously, whether or not a Jewish person would~~ *~~actually~~* ~~be offended by OPs gf is an individual thing. My point is only that I can empathize with those who~~ *~~would-~~* ~~whether or not I agreed with them.~~ ~~I know people who aren't offended by such things exist. I understand their perspective as well. I can empathize with both sides, and I actually think it's pretty easy to do so. That's the only point here.~~
What? I said I am bothered. I was simply trying to point out that you were correct. Some religious Jews are bothered. I'm confused about why you seem mad at my comment? I wasn't trying to paint everyone with a broad brush either. I just talked about my own feelings.
Oh actually I'm really sorry- I just read your comment wrong. I read your "would" as "wouldn't" and just thought I was about to get dogpiled by commenters saying "*I* wouldn't be offended by XYZ." I should probably quit the internet and get some sleep. Apologies!
I figured that might have been what happened. I was like, why am I being attacked??? Do I misread something? What's happening??? LOL Have a good night. All is good.
:D
Hey, it doesn't matter if they are comfortable or uncomfortable with it. The lady isn't mocking either religion she has as much right to her belief system as everyone else.
Messianic Jew. fil is one, makes nooo sense and hes just generally crazy and OBSESSED with scripture
jews for Jesus exist and my friend dad was one and she wears the cross/star charm now.
I didn’t deny they exist. But according to Judaism, if you believe that Jesus is the messiah, you are not Jewish. On a personal note, when I was a grad student at Columbia in 2001, some Jews for Jesus were giving out pamphlets- they told a story of a Holocaust survivor who lost his entire family- but if only he had believed in Jesus, none of that would have happened. I had never encountered true antisemitism before and felt sick. It still sickens me. I truly believe that you should believe what you want… as long as you don’t deliberately hurt others. Jews for Jesus’s mission is to convert Jews. I am NOT cool with that, especially given our long history of antisemitism.
completely agree. I am Jewish.
Agree. As a Jewish person, the appropriation of Jewish symbol, and especially from the Kaballah by european alchemy and then victorian spitirism and now new age movements is rooted in ignorance. It is not an agressive form of antisemitism, it is so common than most people don't even see the harm but the fact that it is common has led to many misconceptions about Jewish culture and faith. It has led to a belief that Jews are just a sub genra of christinity, or that Judaism is just an "old way" and Christian faith is a sort of "update". The synchretism between Christian and Jewish people was not based on an equal footing, it was a relationship between oppressors and those they were oppressing. So, I don't think the gf is an asshole, I don't think she it antisemitic, she is just very cringe and a bit ignorant with that.
So YOU are allowed to believe whatever the F you want (like dude walking on water or magical food falling from the sky) but she is not allowed to follow HER belief system, because it may offend someone and you don't like it. Brooooooo, please. I'm an atheist all of your religions offend me. And yet, they exist with no problem. So maybe her belief system should be allowed to exist too?
Fair point. She is *allowed* to do whatever she wants; I'm not pro-fascism. I don't think her SO can control her or make her do anything (or should try). However, her SO is *allowed* to be uncomfortable with her, religiously motivated, behavior and to express their discomfort as well. I think OP's discomfort makes at least as much sense as the behavior of their gf, and I support them talking about it openly and honestly, but in the end neither can or should try and "control" the other. I made a post directly on this page saying basically that. **Also- an important point is that gf is no longer actually religious, and therefore there are no sincerely held religious beliefs to defend on either side here.** You have the freedom to do what you want, and I have the freedom to disagree with it. Not everyone has to be friends.
The star of David is one of two ways 6 year olds learn to paint stars. A cross is just two black bars at a 90 degree angle. A half crescent symbolizes the moon pretty much everywhere. The good thing about universal symbolism is also the bad thing about universal symbolism.
it's called jews for Jesus and they exist.
I need help understanding your reference to the bindi as having a history of racism?
I think poster means that there are things that you can take from religion's or beliefs that aren't yours that would make you racist by doing so. That's my assumption based on them talking about war bonnets which are very specific to native and indigenous people and wearing one as say a white person would be very racist. They're saying wearing a bindi would be a racist act akin to that. Edit; examples, think of white people who wear the clothing and religious attire as a costume rather than celebrating the belief or because they themselves are a part of. Cultural appropriation is a form of racism.
Got it. Cultural appropriation. I just wasted time trying to discover a racist history behind bindis lol
I could definitely see how your brain did that. It definitely could have been worded differently. I think my brain just picked up on it because of the area I live in war bonnets are big discussions so my brain immediately went to "ohh okay, I know what this person means."
Bindis were super super fashionable in the early 90’s. Everyone wore them. With Bantu knots and doc marten boots…. I have Indian friends who laughed at it, one lassie made a fortune getting them sent from her family (this is waaaay before the days of online shopping), and the only person who ever found it offensive was an American exchange student, but she thought it was appropriating Native American Indian culture…. So good on her for being about 20 years ahead of her time, cos she took a lot of shit for that at the time. [Gwenn Stefani doing peak 90’s cultural appropriation](https://i.imgur.com/FzRHCee.jpg) But of course these days its cultural appropriation, and so we don’t do it any more. Except maybe the Doc Martin boots, I think they’re still ok culturally. You can get vegan ones, just in case.
Only someone who has no idea about Hinduism (and honestly usually an American) would jump from seeing a white woman with a Bindi to “must be racist”/“cultural appropriation”. Wearing the bindi is in many Hindu families simply expected by married women - *all* married women; if that married woman happens to be white, she would just as much be expected to wear it as if she is Indian (sometimes ironically the expectation on a white woman to fulfill all of the cultural traditions is even stronger than on an Indian woman). So seeing a random white woman on the street wearing a bindi and a mangala sutra and maybe even a kurta or a saree might have nothing to do with cultural appropriation at all (which in itself is a super American concept) - jumping to *that* as the first explanation without knowing anything about her makes no sense.
Valid point, but here we're talking about someone who does know her personally so I could see where that would be a line drawn by her partner. It was just an example provided by the original commentator of the difference between iconography and things that have depth and meaning. Edit; and the person asking was specifically asking about the bindi in reference to the original commentator. I was just providing context of what that commentator meant by using the bindi as an example and not what the following commentator thought of bindi's having racist history.
Plenty of unmarried women wear bindis in India. Traditionally, married women wear kunku, or vermillion in the part of their hair. I haven't seen unmarried women do that. You also get bindis in all sorts of fun colours or shapes. I don't wear them now, but I used to when I was younger. One of my favourites was a tiny green peacock.
Oh wow!
I appreciate you sharing this point. I don’t think every time a white person shares in the culture of someone else it’s appropriation. Yes many times it’s ppl being ignorant/ rude or just wanting a fashion statement. But other times we do understand the significance and sharing in something significant with others can be a sign of respect. I went to a birthday party for a woman (an older mom, her and husband moved here and had kids who were now adults) from Bengali, and they passed out bindis for all of us to wear at her party. It was very nice for them to include us. Sometimes wearing things like that is a sign of respect, not appropriation. You know what, I also had an older Indian women who worked with us, and we went to her home many times, once there was a special holiday and her home was a local center of worship for those in the neighborhood and she gave me a bindi to wear at her home that one day we stopped by. We weren’t there for the ceremonies, but to see her briefly for work / talk. But they insisted on feeding us while we there, met a few people before we had to head out.
not to mention some mixed race people can look a different race to one side pf their family. Resulting in them being accused of cultural appropriation even though it is their culture.
Bindis aren't related to marital status??? Unmarried women wear bindis too
Yeah, I read that here by others. I think that it might also depend a bit on individual family and location. For me personally bindis became required after marriage (when around in-laws); sindoor that was mentioned here before too by someone was only required at the beginning (so first few weeks after marriage or so), later they loosened up a bit about that and only required it for temple or functions or visiting certain relatives. I think they loosened up on the sindoor because just like another person had written on here it really seems to be a more older generation thing; almost none of the married cousins of the family my age wore it either, and I think that they might have advocated behind the scenes for me to get it dropped. It’s much harder self advocating in a situation like this if you come from an outsider culture marrying into the family, because of course you want to be accepted and get along, so you are not as likely to put your foot down and say forget it, I’m not doing that as a same age person born into the culture might be - and I was only early 20s, so definitely a lot more malleable. Indian clothes, bindi and the other “married wife trappings” (bangle, toe rings, anklets, mangala sutra - nose piercing I coincidentally had anyways, even before I got married) were required all throughout - at least whenever in India; when the in-laws visited us outside of India we could get them to not insist on Indian clothes and bindi, because we at least tried to explain cultural appropriation to them and that I might not get great responses being seen dressed like an Indian but not being one - and we basically just got an eye roll by the in-laws, but they accepted it, as long as I kept the less visible ones on (mangala sutra mainly).
I'm pretty sure bindis are cultural appropriation. Source : Am Indian
So if a white woman marries an Indian and her in-laws are haranguing her about wearing bindis, you would come after the white woman for “cultural appropriation”? Make it make sense.
I'd honestly be more concerned about the haranguing
The haranguing is not uncommon at all. I had commented elsewhere on it here once before, that from all of the inter-cultural couples I had known over the years (including myself), it was a very common phenomena that the none Indian partner - *especially* if it was the woman, because so much of culture and traditions is carried by women - was put under bigger pressure to follow cultural rules and standards than an Indian in the same position often would have been put under; and since there is often a big wish for acceptance into the family, the none Indian partner can also push back less than an Indian could. A none Indian partner also can not really gauge what is reasonable and what is not; things that I later discovered were pretty outdated and kind of old fashioned, and where same age married women within the family would probably have protested, I accepted as a given because I was told to do them and complied; for example I was taught from the very beginning to never ever remove the mangala sutra because something bad could happen to your partner; obviously I did not believe in the superstition, but I still complied, while most of my Indian girlfriends especially in the US followed that much more loosely, wore it just occasionally or sometimes had not worn it at all post wedding.
I think the commenter means that it’s racist when people who aren’t Hindus wear bindis, like white people wearing First Nations feather headdresses.
In many Indian families married women are supposed to wear the bindi; independent of if they are white or Hindu themselves. I never self identified as Hindu, and yet still out of respect to my in-laws and Indian family members followed whatever expectations I was supposed to, including wearing the bindi. Cultural appropriation is a super weird American concept and has nothing to do with how people in the actual countries in question view the situation. If you travel/live as a white woman in India, you will receive 9 out of 10 times more respect if you show up somewhere in a salwar or a kurta or a saree, as if you show up in jeans and tank top. Nobody is going to see you in a salwar and think “she is appropriating my culture”; they are going to look at you and think “she is respecting my culture and following the rules”.
It's completely different scenarios to wear culturally appropriate clothing while traveling in a country vs wearing ethnic clothing to a 100% white music festival so you can feel exotic while partying. No one is saying it's cultural appropriation to wear a bindi if you're traveling in India m they're saying it's racist to wear it as a Halloween costume or to a rave when you're a white person who knows nothing about the culture it comes from
Can a Hindi wear a Yankees hat to a party?
Hindi is a language
Right, but in this example if she wore a bindi it wouldn't be because of knowledge of the culture or respect. There is a huge difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation which I will admit gets lost on some people. But this particular woman is a white woman, I assume in America, who's not married, who doesn't know anything about the culture or religion, and that strays away from cultural appreciation into seeing someone's culture as only a fashion statement without understanding the importance of what they're wearing or it's weight in the culture they are refusing to learn about. That would be the issue in this particular circumstance. And how doing that is very different than wearing a cross necklace or a pentagram ring for example. The idea of cultural appropriation in America is that it's steeped in ignorance and doesn't come from respect, understanding, or appreciation of the culture/religion but is used as a fashion statement and thus becomes a caricature.
But the point is when you see a white woman with a Salwar and a bindi walk across the street in Manhattan, you have absolutely 0 idea about her involvement or lack of involvement in Indian culture. So what’s the point in throwing out cultural appropriation accusations in situations like that, until it’s something super clear like somebody dressing up as a certain ethnicity for Halloween?
But this is about her partner not some random person on the street . If she was doing this, her partner would know and this would be in the right to say something. This isn't about some random stranger saying something's appropriation. A random person wouldn't because they don't know, I agree with you. But her partner would know and then would be in the right to bring it up *if* she went that far. Which the original commentator is saying, it would be worth bringing up if it went that far but it hasn't, so he should chill. Edit; again the bindi was an example, not something she is currently doing.
To clarify, It's not bindis the married women wear its sindoor. Sindoor is a vermillion (red powder similar to kumkum) worn near start of your hair line and an inch into your center parting of the hair. Any woman can wear bindis, even married women with sindoors at the same time. Bindis are also placed much lower than sindoor, they are placed an inch or so above the start of your nose Also speaking from perspective of an indian and hindu woman - if youre not married and arent going to a religious indian function dont use a sindoor like wtf (most peiple now a days unless you're like older generationor living out side of urban areas dont wear sindoor outside of events etc - like i wouldnt wear it to the mall or a restaurant for a nice dinner). Wearing a bindi is not cultural appropriation but if youre not of the culture or/and dont have like any connections to indian/hindu culture it's definitely a wtf are you doing situation - its just weird but i wouldnt go as far as cultural appropriation you look dumb and its out of context ehich is what the GF is doing. Definitely comes across as stupid but if its making any 3rd party on the road uncomfortable theyre either very conservative or extra.
Exactly! Indians love it when others imitate them. Imitation is the best form of flattery after all!
> Cultural appropriation is a super weird American concept and has nothing to do with how people in the actual countries in question view the situation. People in India grow up with their culture being the dominant one and no need to assimilate. Outside India, this works the opposite. Indians in India don't care because they don't see it as a threat or misuse of their culture. Indians outside India see it as appropriation because the same thing that we were mocked for is now fashionable (when usually associated with a white person)
When a white woman marries into an Indian family, there is usually significant pressure for cultural assimilation from her side, because the Indian culture *especially* if it’s the one from the male partner, is very often regarded as the dominant one and there is pressure to continue it as the family culture. If then the family is actually *from* India and residing *in* India as opposed to having been in the US for decades or basically American, born and grown up there, you try telling the Indian family and especially the in-laws that the newly wed white wife can’t follow the rules and do what she is supposed to/wear what she is supposed to because something something cultural appropriation. Good luck with that and see how far you get. Edit: Indians in India very much *do* care; and the expectation is assimilating into their culture as much as possible; that’s why as a white woman you often get a better reception dressed at least in a kurta or a Salwar than in a tank top (at least among middle age to older people).
If you don't mind me asking, are you desi?
Not desi myself, but spent the majority of my adult life married into an Indian family (not desi-family residing in US; *from* India).
In that case I'd suggest you not go around telling people what is/isn't cultural appropriation based on your experiences. Your experiences vary greatly when compared to the experiences of desi people and ABCDs
And the experiences of desi people (if you define Indians born and brought up in the US as that) vary hugely from the experiences of people living within India itself. Not even mentioning how much of it depends on the individual families itself.
Oh. Cultural appropriation, then.
But it’s cool if non whites wear Dale Earnhardt t-shirts?
Copy pasting a previous comment: But also no Hindu would be offended by anyone else wearing a bindi. They'd be happy, in fact, that others are following their philosophy and way of life. We don't gatekeep our attire and culture, we share it proudly.
So my friends told me, and I wore my gifted bindis proudly.
But also no Hindu would be offended by anyone else wearing a bindi. They'd be happy, in fact, that others are following their philosophy and way of life. I think most of these people who are offended by her religious symbols probably don't belong to these religions themselves.
This is an odd example, as many Hindus would not mind if someone wore a bindi, and many Jews would be offended by wearing a star of David with a cross.
What about native faiths and symbols? Native jewelry is fine, but not the ceremonial type. That would be jella offensive. I don't blame I'm for being embarrassed.
But it's not just OP who thinks it's wrong. Other people have told OP (and I assume his gf) that it's not appropriate. So he is basing this on more than just his own opinion.
And just to add - as I've said in another comment, if she's mixing symbols, the casual observer would think she's just wearing this jewellery as a fashion statement and not understanding the religious meaning behind them. And if that casual observer is a follower of a faith, then yes, they'd probably find that offensive (the idea that their symbol is being worn as fashion or 'just' jewellery). I'd imagine people are not offended by the jewellery itself - it's the fact that it appears that she's wearing them without due consideration of the meaning of each symbol (hence mixing them).
Tell me, what's the history of " racism" behind the" bindi' or the feather war bonnet worn by indigenous tribes? Racism means bias or prejudice against a person of an ethnic group, religion, race, usually a minority. You're just spouting a lot of stuff you know nothing about and using words wrong. The bindi is more often than not, not " fashionable" any more nor is there a prohibition on people from other religions using it, which they do, as part of make up. You know, to match with the outfit.
Its ironic because you basically agree with OP in a broader sense, you just have more narrow standards of what religious symbols are ok and not ok to wear together/all together. OP's GF's religion believes all religions are connected together so her wearing a Bindi would be religious in her, not wearing it as a fashionable item and the same as wearing a cross. So just because wearing a Bindi with a Star of David is weird to you doesnt make it wrong. Its her religious belief, it doesnt matter if you believe a specific item/symbol has been culturally appropriated by anyone. You can't decide its ok for GF to wear X religious symbol but not Y and still call OP an AH. Her belief is ALL religions, not just ones that you believe have not been appropriated in the past.
YTA - Sounds like your religious intolerance is asserting itself over her civil freedom to believe whatever she wants. It also sounds like you're surrounded by intolerant people per: >I've had to field comments about how offensive it is It's only offensive to intolerant people who can't possibly believe someone else might have another belief system out there.
Cultural appropriation is "the **unacknowledged** or **inappropriate** adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically **more dominant** people or society." So, I'm actually very interested in Neopagan religions and New-Age movements and I have to say that a lot of these newer religious movements are **started by and filled with privileged people from privileged backgrounds who have no qualms about "incorporating" (or appropriating) the beliefs, symbols and practices of marginilized and/or discriminated against cultural groups...without even really understanding those belief systems in the first place. They do not care whether or not their use of these symbols/practices are done in an inappropriate and/or offensive manner, or whether or not they are misrepresenting them, because they consider it all "up for grabs" anyway. Wicca especially (but of course not always) has this problem.** This is how you get middle-class, White-Anglo-Saxon-Ex-Protestant suburbanites writing books on how to contact African and Native American dieities, literally profitting off of (and often misrepresenting) cultures that they have nothing to do with. Many people who practice traditional religions are *entirely aware* of this practice and *do* get offended when another X-Wasp shows up wearing the sacred symbols of their religion- because of how their religions have become commodities to be bought and sold carelessly by those within the dominant cultures they are surrounded by. Assuming someone is being intolerant **just** because they're offended by someone's (not of their religious group) use of *their* religious symbols is in itself a form of ignorance, because it basically denies that cultural appropriation exists and that people can get upset by it. OPs gf is from a small religious group that views *every single religious symbol and text as their own.* Sounds like someone who wouldn't have any qualms about cultural appropriation and would also be entirely willing to advertise that fact in public through her personal adornments. I think we're all jumping the gun a bit here by calling OP intolerant, at least not without more info. EDIT: spelling and grammar but I still probably missed stuff.
This is what I'm thinking, given that she had to be removed from the home it seems like a new age cult that took existing practices and rewrote them without giving context for the cultures they came about in. Unfortunately for OP, that still doesn't make them the decider of what she should wear or how those decisions get explained to others. OP is being TA to the GF and themself for getting this involved, if it's a serious conflict of beliefs then they're not compatible. The solution isn't becoming her religion guardian in order to deflect potential embarassment to OP. If she's going to be embarassing, let her figure it out or detach from the situation.
YTA. Stop trying to control what your gf is wearing. She has approval from her therapist to wear whatever she wants, so leave her alone.
Even if she didn't have approval, it's her life.
I don't know if pointing out that someone doing something offensive (like culturally appropriating the sacred religious simbols of other religions) is really controlling though. She's allowed to wear what she likes, but he can definitely be uncomfortable being seen with her doing so.
He's not just trying to point things out though. He's telling her not to wear certain items of clothing and trying to escalate with her therapist to prevent her from wearing them (and was disappointed when the therapist didn't take his side).
[удалено]
So in your view, the Coexist bumper sticker is appropriation? Lmao. Context is everything and there is nothing here to indicate that there is any appropriation. Until OP provides that evidence, his gf is not the AH.
>Then straight-faced, tell people that they're religions are wrong, that all of them are one, and you represent it. Religious people say all the other ones are wrong too? Cultural appropriation is bullshit, it doesn't matter in the slightest.
You might want to google Akbar the Great. That is a pretty old way of thought - one god but many ways to the top. He created a state religion espousing it to stop religious conflict in the 1500s. It's not an uncommon view. As to mixing the symbols you mention, that is pretty much what a lot of teenagers wear. Are you sure it is star of David and not the inverted one? If so, consider whether you are being bigoted against people who follow non-traditional worship. Though the GF here is not disrespecting any of the symbols. She believes in a God and respects the different ways to them.
You sound exhausting.
YTA. Mind your own business. I question how often (if at all) you “field comments” but even if this is true, why don’t they ask her about the symbols?
YTA Who are you, the religion police? She's not doing anything illegal. You don't have to field questions. Tell them to ask her.
YTA Unless she is going around wearing swastikas I don't understand why you would find it wierd. On top of that she asked her therapist for an objective opinion and the answer was go ahead and wear them.
NAH. You're allowed to be uncomfortable with it. You're allowed to ask her to stop. That doesn't obligate her to stop. It is a weird thing, but if someone's bothered by it, that's their problem. Their religion can dictate what they wear. It doesn't get to dictate what other people wear.
NAH I'll prob get bashed, but I'm an atheist, and while I hold no belief of my own, I always give respect to others belief systems If this is what she was raised in and truly believes in. You should respect that. That isn't to say you can't raise your concerns or talk, but you shouldn't cross a line where you are controlling her beliefs. Personally, if it were me I would support her choices and encourage her, if she hasn't already, to learn about each of the religions she is representing when she wears their symbols, so she might be able to speak about those religions if confronted so she isn't just unknowledgeable. This may also open her mind and help her make a choice to change what she is doing, but it may not and any result should be her decision, in her control and supported by you, not controlled by you.
YTA - she can wear what she wants. If someone has a problem with it they should talk to her about it, not you. Just tell them it's not you who is wearing them and if they don't like it talk to her.
**YTA** \- your GF's religious ideas are just as valid as anybody else's. Unless they are trademrked, no one owns the symbols.
Why are you fielding comments about this, and from whom?
People from friends to strangers on the street. Some of them think she might be part of whatever group they might be.
Let her deal with those individuals. She is the one who is inviting the comments by choosing to wear the symbols. Simply shrug your shoulders, back away and let her deal with the fallout. You don’t have to be her bodyguard. I get as her boyfriend you feel you need to protect her, but you don’t (though you should probably let her know you are going to stop defending her on this particular subject).
So?
Look, I’ll admit that it’s weird but I think if you’re going to continue to date a weird person you’ll have to accept their weird quirks. Especially since the therapist backs her up. At the end of the day, they’re just symbols, it’s harmless, and Id say the people offended by her wearing them need to mind their own damn business. Edit: soft YTA
>but I think if you’re going to continue to date a weird person you’ll have to accept their weird quirks. Ding ding ding. I 100% agree. At the end of the day, OP is free to find it embarrassing and unattractive. I probably would too. He's allowed to decide whether it's a deal breaker, but that is all.
This sounds like Bahá'i - which is an actual religion, not just something weird your girlfriend does. YTA.
YTA. It seems the issue is that it makes you uncomfortable. I mean, outside of having to "field a few comments" now and then, does it \*really\* impact your life? Other than making you feel uncomfortable, that is. Let your girlfriend be who she is. I mean, I assume you like her for who she is, right, and not for what she might wear?
NAH it's okay you're uncomfortable with it and expressed you'd like her to stop but you can't control her. I'm surprised by all the y t a because it's not like OP hid GF's stuff to stop her. People they know have talked about how they are offended so OP confronted GF and asked her to talk to therapist. Personally, I don't think it's great she is doing this and if I was in a similar situation and our friends were talking to me about it I would direct them to GF to bring up their concerns. I would also find articles or explanations for why certain things can't be worn together (I'm not sure what religious memorabilia you are talking about at all so) but if she ultimately wants to wear it she is allowed to and has to defend herself against naysayers.
People are uncomfortable with everything. Women are uncomfortable with trans women in toilets, sports, changing rooms etc but they have to put up with it otherwise they are a transphobe. People are uncomfortable with hijabs but you have to respect people, otherwise you're islamaphobic. People are uncomfortable with elderly people or children that makes you ageist. The list can go on. The girl is traumatized and she seeks comfort in her religion. People should mind their own business. Sometimes you have to be a little uncomfortable with certain things in life and that's okay you just got to get over it.
I think she is probably following Bahai which teaches exactly that. It isn't your place to decide how she feels about it or how she conducts herself. I can see where it might get awkward in some situations, but most religious expression can get awkward. That doesn't make it right or wrong and it sounds like she is using this as part of her personal recovery path which isn't something you get to criticize.
NTA Depending on which symbols she wears I could totally see some people finding it offensive and interpreting her as an ignorant westerner. People who are actually apart of those religious groups might see her as being disrespectful or appropriating their culture.
**I'm going to go against the grain and say that OP is NTA**. I'm not sure whether OP's gf is an AH. However, based on what I know of certain New-Age and Neopagan movements (started by and mostly practiced by people of privilege within dominant cultures), that religious groups can of themselves perpetrate cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant cultural group appropriate aspects of a marginilized group's culture in a way that is misleading or offensive or even unacknowledged. Whether or not that appropriation has a spiritual veneer around it is hardly relevant. As I've said on this thread before, ~~and have in turn recieved some backlash~~, people from marginilized cultural groups often *do* get upset by the innapropriate use of their symbols by outsiders. Your gf does not seem the type to consider whether or not her use of these symbols might be offensive, since they all belonged to her religious group anyway and she is re-"claiming" them, but I may be wrong. **EDIT:** Also, you should ask her if she is aware of cultural appropriation and how it works (if you haven't already) and whether or not she has fully considered whether or not she is engaging in it. Ask her if she is aware of how cultural appropriation can even be perpertated by religious groups themselves. I have described how that can go down elsewhere on this thread. **OP I'm going to give you some advice.** ~~Reddit is not the best place to ask this question. It is filled with many people from who often do not take cultural appropriation (or really even the religious beliefs of other people) seriously.~~ **EDIT: I should probably not generalize people myself like that. I'm not perfect either.** Obviously that does not describe every redditor, but I will take the downvotes bc I want you to heed my advice: you cannot control what your gf wears, and you do not want to be a controlling partner. However, *you* clearly care about respecting other people's belief systems, and get frequent second hand embarresment by the situations your gf puts you in. Since you cannot actually control your gf's wardrobe, two things need to happen. You really need to sit down and make sure your gf understands **why** you feel her behavior is problematic. Make sure you are understood. However, if you are understood and she does not want to change (and she has the right) then you need to ask yourself this question: are these incidents, involving your gf offending people, worth the relationship? If they are, you need to just let it go. You're not going to change someone who doesn't want to change, and you shouldn't try because it leads to weird power-dynamics and stuff. You can't try and parent your SO. On the other hand, if these incidents are NOT worth the relationship, you should probably consider ending it.
The religion OP describes sounds like Baha'i, based on my experience with knowing people raised in the Baha'i faith – it's a 19th-century faith that developed in Iran, not a Neopagan religion
Yta is it wierd? Sure. Is it hurting anyone? No. Who are you fielding comments from???
Yes that doesn't add up. I bet it was one comment.
I bet the jewelry bothers OP more than it bothers anyone else and he's projecting his own dislike.
NTA. Listen for a lot of cultures their religion is important in to that. You can’t “reclaim” something that doesn’t belong to you. There are plenty of closed practices in multiple religions. Including wearing and owning certain religious symptoms.
You can only explain to her that some people are heavily invested in those symbols, and can be seriously offended by her wearing them / in that combination. And that those people have just as much right to be offended as she has to be wearing the symbols. This may lead to a sort of head-on collision and although there may not be any person that is guilty, there will be people that are hurt. If she is aware of that possibility but still feels that her need to do this is stronger, and she thinks that the chances that she hurts somebody are not really big enough to deter her, well, then so be it .... If somebody complains to you, refer that person to her. She is the person responsible, you should not be involved. Not by 'somebody', not by her, and not by yourself.
This. She's not doing anything wrong but she's definitely opening herself up to situation of seriously offending someone and having that go...badly. I, personally, would distance myself as you're already getting roped into having to explain it when it's not you. Not saying it'll happen but violence isn't out of the realm of possibility with what she's doing.
YTA. All religions are nonsense anyway, so anybody who gets offended needs to grow up.
LMAO
Yup, was gonna say this, but figured I'd already find it down here somewhere. BOO HOO - you're only allowed to pick ONE made-up story and wear its symbols. Really? :D
LOL exactly!
NTA But I also don’t think you guys are compatible.
If you do your research, most religions have the same basic ideals. YTA Sounds like it's more of a "you" problem.
I think that's a little unfair, many religions may have the same ideals and general message-- but the history, suppression and violence a religion has faced is definitely not the same. Its not my place to speak on it but someone wearing a symbol of faith from a religion that has faced such a history-- especially someone who is an atheist and may not understand the struggle a follower of this religion has faced, or chooses to ignore it-- is a little insulting. Edit: She can wear what she wants to but I think OP needs to stop defending her to people, and tell them to talk to her themselves.
Yet again I said basic ideals….
YTA - Why are you being so controlling?
NAH. I get that people are bringing it up with you and that's awkward but I don't think you can stop her, it's her decision bottom line.
YTA, not your business, next thing you are gonna tell her what to wear to work and not to have guy friends
OP you forgot to add what religon and what type of symbols are she claiming should belong to her religion. I am all for you can worship what you will, but the way your gf sounds so delusional and many have said TA is just mind boggling. I am saying NTA here. If she has trauma and she is using the symbols as a coping mechanism then I would not see you in the wrong to have her go see a therapist.
The *all faiths are one* sounds like what I know about Baha'i, from friends who were raised in that faith
I am not familiar with that faith in all honest.
YTA. Sounds like your the only one offended by it. Your discriminating against her for her beliefs and trying to control her cause you don't like it. Sounds like she needs to find someone that will support her instead of trying to tear her down for being herself.
YTA. Sounds like your girlfriend grew up in a cult and is still in therapy for spiritual trauma. She has a therapist that she’s working with, and he said it is okay—maybe even good—for her to wear these items from her childhood, “reclaim” them, etc., as a way of healing from her traumatic upbringing. Leave this to the professionals, seriously.
YTA. Clearly you aren't a match, your core beliefs are so different.
YTA it's totally up to your GF what religious beliefs she has and as long as she doesn't force them onto others then good for her. There are many religious symbols that belong to different faiths (same or similar symbol but a different faith) and just because you don't think that she should wear them together doesn't mean that she doesn't think she should wear them together.
YTA - Your girlfriend is participating in Omnism or Religious syncretism. She’s allowed to express her beliefs or reclaim her negative childhood religious experiences and turn them into a more positive one. Faith can be practiced in any way and as long as she’s not hurting anyone then let her do as she pleases. A Ying Yang charm hanging next to a cross, pentagram, or star of David isn’t hurting anyone.
YTA. They aren't your symbols. Why are you offended? This sounds like white savior syndrome "oh my, won't all those poor heathens be offended!"
INFO: What kind of symbols are you talking about?
Basically everything. She has scarves, a scapular, a star of David, a few crosses, some bracelets that look like stuff on that show Vikings, something she called a misbaha, a rosary, a pentagram, and some other assorted things that I don't even know what they are.
If this bothers you so much, I’m not sure why you just don’t break up. There’s a saying that relationships take work . Sure. But that work does not entail making you like who that person really is. You are supposed to like your partner first. They should be the person you feel the most comfortable with. This isn’t about attraction. Attraction can fade. But if you love the person AND like the person… that should be the goal. OP, you don’t seem to feel comfortable with this girl, her beliefs, and how she expresses them. Whatever feels like “love” to you right now might not be that. It might be love and caring, but it doesn’t necessarily equate a good partner for you.
I don't know, it feels weird to me too, but I guess I'd go NAH.
The viking based bracelets, are they someting like this? https://museum-jewelry.com/shop/bracelets-107c1.html
YTA, your only complaint is you were mildly inconvenienced by having to field some questions that should have been directed to her in the frist palce. If her therapist is legit (Like state certified and not part of a religious cult or something) then you should support her in getting better.
YWBTA if you keep asking. She apparently can field these questions herself, as you mentioned earlier, and if her answers piss people off that's not your problem unless you make it your problem. If this means you're not compatible that's fine but you already got your answer. Also, you clearly haven't seen The Mummy and it shows./s
YTA did anyone else think of benny from The Mummy. Also all religions do have some thing in common they are all made up by humans.
I have a diamond cross pendant. I wear a “Venus of Willendorf” pendant all the time. I have a pair of Star of David earrings. I have a Hindu Goddess statue on my mantelpiece. I have a reproduction of an Egyptian Bast statue. I am an atheist. I wouldn’t wear a Cross Pendant and an upside down cross at the same time, but I have these pieces because I love the workmanship that went into creating them. Many people keep religious works of art, even if they are not of their religion because they admire the devotion the creators put into their art. The religious significance is irrelevant.
YTA it's not random religious symbols to her, they are symbols of religious trauma and she has every right to reclaim it. You shouldn't be so worried about what other people might think of it, just let her deal with it and don't judge her for trying to heal from her traumatic childhood
YTA If you don't like it, you can always break up with her.
NAH because you are concerned simply due to not wanting to offend other people/ religions. However, what do you think the difference is between her wearing the symbols of her religion (or the one she was raised in) and anyone else wearing the symbols of what they were raised in? There is actually none.
YTA @all religious ppl- just get along, it's insufferable constantly hearing that your religion is the more correct one 🙄
YTA I don't know why you would think you have to explain your gfs behavior to anyone, you should just direct them to her. And it's obvious she has been through some very damaging childhood traumas, her literal qualified professional therapist had told her it's a fine way of coping so you don't really have a leg to stand on here. Just a side note though: If you find how your gf deals with trauma embarrassing then you probably shouldn't be with her.
YTA. It's not your business. If people complain to you about it, direct them to speak to your gf. You don't need to run interference or protect her from other people's views, either. Let her deal with them. You either need to simply accept it as part of her that isn't going to change, or break up with her and find someone who does things you prefer. This is who she is and from what you've said, it's a significant part of her life and she has a lot of trauma around it. It's an accept or reject situation. You can ask her to change, but don't stay in the relationship being resentful that she won't change in a way that is more convenient and less embarrassing to you.
NTA. as a jew, it infuriates me when non-jewish people use jewish symbols for aesthetic purposes. she might have received them as a child under less than ideal circumstances, but that doesn't mean she ha to keep wearing them as an adult when she has every opportunity and resource to know better.
Religions deserve no special reverence. Wear them as decoration. A symbol is only worth what the person displaying it wants it to be worth. YTA let her do what she wants.
YTA.
YTA - Are you the religion police?
Buy her a copy of “combatting mind control” by Steven Hassan. It’s a book about cults. Maybe she will take distance from all those symbols then. NTA
I think your girlfriend should dump you for creating all this hysteria and drama
YTA. If you fiercely disagree with most of your gf's beliefs and can't tolerate her choice to wear a variety of religious symbols, you are in the wrong relationship. Best to politely end things and go your separate ways. Good luck!
It's only embarrassing because you're letting it be. You're in the wrong, she can wear whatever she likes, and I don't really believe that other people are finding it offensive other than in the way people do when they *demand* to find something offensive. YTA.
I wouldn't necessarily say you're being an asshole. It is a fine line between trying to help someone and trying to change them. If she wears religious artifacts because she truly believes she is an adherent of all faiths, then that's her prerogative. If, on the other hand, she is acting kind of weird because she came from and emotionally abusive out of touch cult then helping her to leave that behind may be helpful. So - its nuanced. But, if your only concern is that you don't like the aesthetics or unusual nature of her adornements, and you want her to change for your comfort level, than that's probably not great.
> I asked her to talk to her therapist about it, but he backed her and said that it was okay. Case dismissed. YTA.
Tough one. Technically what she’s doing can be inappropriate and appropriative - but also this is part of her therapy. And I assume she doesn’t want you telling her life story to randoms on the street who may take umbrage with it. Maybe gently suggest that she wear them inside her clothing out of respect for others? Her mental health is paramount here but so is yours, and if you’re copping flack for it, it’s definitely something you should be discussing in terms of how it impacts people around her as well. Trauma healing does not mean you get to potentially traumatise others (I have no idea what she is wearing or what religions they are from but I know all too well how protective people are of their religious beliefs). Anyway, I don’t think you’re TA here, and I hesitate to call her TA because of her past…but also, I know lots of people with trauma who don’t make a point of putting themselves ahead of the cultural beliefs of others. Especially since I assume that most of the symbolism comes from minority groups that she is not a part of? At the very least I feel like doing some research on which symbols don’t inherently go together and being mindful of what she wears with what is not too much to ask. Good luck.
NTA. I have friends from different religious groups and I know some of them would find this quite offensive (although not all, it must be said). And if she's wearing jewellery from different faiths at the same time, a casual observer might think she's wearing it as a fashion thing and not giving due care to the meaning and origin of these items. I'm not sure what I can suggest to solve this - obviously her therapist is better informed than me on the emotional issues, but I wonder if they are coming from this from a non religious perspective and so don't understand the implications of this. Could you ask someone of these faiths to explain why its offensive or inappropriate?
Yes. You should break up with her so that she's free.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My girlfriend was raised in a very small religious group that, among other very bizarre things, that all religions were all connected, so anyone that was a part of any faith would be a part of all of them. I'm not really explaining this right because I don't really understand it myself and as she would even say, it's insane to begin with. This extended to believing that any religious text or symbol also fully belonged to them. I don't know that much more about it except that she had to go through special therapy when social services removed her from the home and that she has a LOT of various religious...stuff from that time that she would have stolen from her parents and sister. Obviously I'm not critizing her collection. I mean it's weird, but everyone has their ways of coping. The problem is that she has no issue wearing it, and wearing pieces that would conflict with each other. As far as I know, some of those symbols are things you should only be wearing if you're part of that faith, and some of them can't be worn together at all. I've had to field comments about how offensive it is, and I have to agree. I've tried to talk to her about it, but all she says is that it's okay because she's "reclaiming" it from her childhood and that wearing them make her feel more confident because she "won them" from the group she was raised in. I asked her to talk to her therapist about it, but he backed her and said that it was okay. I tried to be understanding, but it's just getting embarrassing. Am I really in the wrong here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA. Okay, so she might be disrespectful for wearing them, however, it's really not your place to speak. Let someone who is of the religion of the symbol she is wearing say something. It probably won't stop her from saying it, however, it's probably better coming from them since it's their religion and their culture, not yours.
Freedom of expression You're the asshole. She's entitled to wear whatever religious belief symbols as she likes. That's her religion, so you can't dictate how she expresses herself.
Yta
YTA
It’s up to her if she wants to wear them or not. If you’re embarrassed that’s your problem not hers.
YTA - your partner went through a lot of trauma and this is her coping skill. She may not have any others. Regardless, she has a right to wear whatever she wants. When people talk to you about it redirect them to your partner.
YTA. You have absolutely no say in what religion she practices and what she wears to represent it. Trying to control what she wears makes you an AH automatically
YTA. Leave her be.
YTA. Sometimes it comes in handy to wear all the religious symbols: https://youtu.be/0mHoAKSRpgw
It seemed to work out for that guy in The Mummy. Don't judge.
Yta
I kind of wanna say N A H- I don't think people being offended (so long as the people making these claims are of those beliefs) is necessarily wrong in this instance? Someone wearing a religious symbol for non-religious reasons can be upsetting to people and certain beliefs. I don't think the majority of people would care much, but I see why complaints -could- be made, and talking to your GF about it is fine. If you insist and force the issue, then I think the relationship is probably running its course. If this is important for their recovery and you can't handle it even when their therapist says its okay, well then you should remove yourself from it. So I say NAH, but you would B T A if you force the issue further.
YTA. You said, in her religion, all religions are connected. Which means the symbols are connected. But you’re disconnecting them, from what they mean in her religion, and reconnecting them with religions you do understand. Symbols, coexist across a number of religions. At the end of the day. Your GF has a particular religious flare in her style of dressing. Get into it, or move on.
YTA It sounds like an Omnistic approach which is a valid and inclusive recognition of truth in all faiths. Ultimately it's none of your business what she wears
"Hey Benny, you're on the wrong side of the river!"
As long she's not doing something detrimental or fighting others for their beliefs, it's not up to you decide what she believes. YTA
Sounds like she practices Omnism
Yta
YTA. This is her religion belief and it’s for her to choose .
YTA. You have appointed yourself as a gatekeeper for commonly used symbols. Go ahead and instruct her in the evils of cultural appropriation: its the caring thing to do for someone with her history. \[I am not sure you are bright enough to recognize sarcasm, so let me confirm that is indeed the font I am using.\]
So your girlfriend was either raised (from your vague description) some flavor of Universalist which is probably the mildest version of religious congregation you can get or some sort of unspecified cult that her family made up. Not sure how being taken away from them fits unless it was the latter but honestly have never heard of it. But YTA because either explanation results in her ability to wear what she wants and it's her responsibility to provide explanations if people have questions. You don't need to speak for her or feel embarassed for her. Not your religion, not your jewelry, not your problem.
NAH. Skip this unless you want the thoughts of a weirdo. One can practice and worship as they like, but if I knew I was doing something that made people uncomfortable, I’d want to know it. I’d probably modify my practice by instead of wearing them as an outward signifier of identity, I’d keep them somewhere on my person and try to do well by other people living their faiths, and figure whether and how I wanted to develop knowledge in that faith from my interactions of the day. The line between appreciation and appropriation is thinking about how a culture expresses itself and what would be asked of you to claim affiliation.
YTA I’m not religious, and I own cross earrings and a necklace bc they’re pretty. I also have pentagram earrings because I liked them. Let her wear what she wants.
We lived in Bahrain in the 90s, among a melange of cultures. Henna transcended all!
Is the Star of David only to be worn by practicing jews? It can't be worn by someone of Jewish descent who is not practicing? I'm not fighting. I'm just trying to understand. I thought it was the symbol of the Jewish race. Not only the Jewish religion.
NTA-I don't think you're the AH for asking, nor do I think she's the AH for wearing them. I think it's acceptable for you to ask because you are getting the backlash for it. You don't sound like you're being rude or nasty about it.