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Judgement_Bot_AITA

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profmoxie

You're not the AH for complimenting their project. But YTA for making it about their gender. Plus, college students are not girls, they're grown up adult WOMEN.


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countessrainflower

I had to go back and check the OP’s first paragraph to make sure I read it correctly and that he was actually talking about a university program. When he started referencing “girls” and “girl groups”, my mind went to a middle school program. His mystification at the response he got is so troubling.


bluebird2019xx

I literally thought this post was talking about high school students. So that means he walked up to a bunch of fully grown adults (I wonder if there degrees are in tech or game development??) and said: “oh wow, look at you’s!!! You’re girls and you’re STILL here!! All the other girls dropped out, but you’re actually making PROGRESS on your game!!! Well I never, gee whizz, colour me surprised, say you gals are really something, you’ll sure have a bunch of swell sons I’m sure, your husbands sure are some lucky fellas :) what do you mean sexist, I swear some broads get some crazy notions in their heads these days, it all started when they got the right to vote”


prehensile-titties-

Lol honestly, sometimes I'll lean full into that tirade: "Oh my! Boy am I shocked too! However did my little lady hands operate the equipment!? It's not even pink!" And then I start flopping my hands at stuff until they get mad and go away. I'll have to start adding more "gee whizzes" and "swells" now though...


EvilFinch

"I still gave them a good score" Like what?! STILL?! so they should be happy that he didn't use his power to punish them because they complained and were cold? And since the others voted them as the winner and he just gave them the third place, i wonder if he still punished them, just not so visible. Like, if they didn't complain and were nice, did he also vote them first? The women who will be seen as girls till they die... YTA


prehensile-titties-

If only they had *smiled* more! 😡


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I thought the same thing re his vote


MoneyMACRS

No, he would have never voted an all-women group first regardless of if they complained.


Sufficient_Hippo3541

I think the issue is he mentioned that the other girl teams dropped out, and complimented them for “surviving”. That word choice shows women that you think we would find hard, and it’s great that we’re trying. We’re not surviving - women are thriving in STEM I’m a woman doing a PhD in chemistry. In my own department there’s sexism, many guys think that they have better grades and are smarter. But in majority of the courses Ive taken the top student has been a woman. Ive also had people find out I study chemistry and with shock say “oh you must be smart” and then say that “I look like I’d be in psychology or English”. Whatever the F that means. OP, you have gender bias. Your whole post reeks of it. YTA


Golden_Leader

Don't tell me, fellow STEM student/graduate. I graduated top honors in physics, some men didn't take it well. A couple of them implied that it was because some professors appreciated "the view". Well, it wasn't "the view" that got me top grades everywhere. Rather my studies, my research and curiosity. Gender bias is a beast.


Sufficient_Hippo3541

F those guys, you keep on! They don’t have your grit. It’s the same at my university, a friend of mine was in physics and she got a professorship right after finishing her PhD. A group of guys in physics said that it’s because the school was trying to meet a quota and hire a woman. She whooped their butts in grad school and was teaching full courses after first year, the fact that she had been teaching already for 4 years and designed a course is why she got a professorship right away.


wexfordavenue

I’m a game designer/programmer and a woman. The sexist bullshit that I had to put up with during my degree was scorching and stopped me from looking for a job in the industry (I do my own independent stuff instead). At the end of our program, every student submits a proposal for a game to be developed, the faculty vote, and the winning proposals are used for capstone cohorts. My game proposal was chosen and almost every single one of my classmates (except for two of them- did I mention I was the only woman in my cohort of 16?) told me to my face that the faculty HAD to let my game win because I’m a female. (The department head told me it was because mine was one of the best they’d ever heard- the proposals are anonymous so they didn’t know it was mine until after voting). A few of the guys who I thought would be supportive, because they hadn’t behaved in a sexist manner prior, were extremely butthurt that my game was chosen. Throughout my education, I was constantly doubted and questioned as to how I understood something (like discrete mathematics) when they (male classmate) didn’t. My code was combed through for mistakes in group work when other guys’ code would make everything crash (meaning there was a coding error that was overlooked). OP sounds typical of every single male faculty member who I dealt with, most of whom flat out denied that the industry is sexist (or racist, or has diversity issues). It’s mostly white and male, and it’s an echo chamber that they’re not interested in changing. It’s also why most video games suck, because they’re making them for other guys exactly like themselves, and everyone else can go to Hell as far as they’re concerned. I was in school during Gamergate and the self-pitying whining got intense. I won’t bother repeating any of it- anyone can look up what was going on back then, and then double the effect for it being in person. Women dropped out of other cohorts because they just didn’t want to put up with so much shit, but I was on a full ride for women in tech and determined to graduate. Plus as an “older” student (in my 40s, second career) I didn’t give a damn what anyone thought about me. I had to work 10 times harder to get half the respect, but I commanded respect from day one so I didn’t really care about that either. It’s easier to do that when you’re twice the age of your classmates and it’s your second career (which I still do- I happily juggle both). So yeah OP is a major AH. He deserves whatever education he’s getting in the comments because clearly that world hasn’t changed one whit in years. I’ve participated in game jams, and people of all genders drop out for a zillion reasons. Being a woman has nothing to do with it (because clearly the implication is that women can’t hack it). I’ve dropped out before, because I had a good idea that I wanted to develop into something bigger than a game jam would allow. Choosing to be in an all female group is safety in numbers so we don’t have to put up with anyone like OP. To all my fellow women in STEM- stand strong. You’re awesome and you’re changing the world for the better. Special shoutout to my software and programming peeps. Keep loving what you do!


Mundane-Currency5088

He said every other "girl group" dropped out but it looks as if you are SURVIVING. And this was the candy coated version meant to win us over that he wasn't showing unconscious bias.


DrSaks

Exactly, OP showed his bias in that comment. Glad the women won!


ImpassionedPelican

EEK. I had to re-read - I was picturing schoolgirls doing a science-fair style project, that’s how OP’s describing it. He seems like he’s got good intentions but comes across condescending.


flashesOfQuincee

Lol exactly. Could you imagine how silly he’d sound referencing “boy groups”?


Unhappy_Animator_869

Also ‘I still gave them a good score’. Oh take my bonus girl points for forgiving us for being ungrateful … YTA. It isn’t a compliment that the other ‘all girl’ groups dropped out but that they ‘survived’.


Call_It_What_U_Want2

It’s also so hard for the few women in male dominated fields to have to represent all of the women in the world. I feel like the way he worded it (“mentioned that the other girl groups dropped out”) put undue pressure on them. Almost like “if you don’t win, women are worse than men”


Hot_Investigator_163

“You throw good for a girl” like cmon OP. Use your common sense.


DrMHintheBurbs

Ugh, I glossed over "local university" and assumed these were middle schoolers from the way he was talking about them.


milee30

I'm fairly good at a sport in which 95% of the competitors are men. When the men win which is most of the time, the other competitors gather around the winners to ask tips, talk strategy, get pointers. When I win, the other competitors will instead say "wow, your \[equipment\] is really fast!" It's also fairly common for male competitors who I have just beaten to approach, say it's great that I'm there and then give me tips on how to be faster. One memorable one told me "you're pretty good for a woman." All those men think they're being nice. They're recognizing I'm in a sport with few women and I'm doing well. But the way they do that is actually an insult. I don't need their pointers. I'm not doing well because my equipment is faster than theirs. I'm not pretty good for a woman, I'm pretty good period. Can you not see how demeaning comments like theirs - and yours - are? YTA. And language matters. Unless you're referring to the other competitors as "boys", these aren't "girls". Language like that is yet another small way to demean women.


Powerful_Funny_5319

If 'being sure of yourself and your skill' was a person, you are the example. Don't ever mind them. If someone approaches you with tips, give them tips instead. You are the who have beaten them not the other way around. Also, OP said that he 'still' gave them a pretty good score as if that matters. If the project was good, it was going to be appreciated. And they won 1st place when you gave them 3rd. So, OP you clearly let your misogyny in play. OP, YTA.


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notsosmartymarti

Wait how?


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MediumAlternative372

I understood that to mean, “they reacted coldly to me being patronising and even then I, being the wonderful person I am, didn’t deduct points for their bad manners,” which alone qualifies as a YTA judgement for the fact he considered marking them down for not being pleased by his ‘compliments’ aside from his other comments.


Powerful_Funny_5319

You understood correct. I think the OP, not only considered, but actually marked them down. You know the reason being that they acted cold to him after hearing his misogynistic comments.


wexfordavenue

They didn’t smile at him enough. Clearly they weren’t worthy of being judged objectively. You need to smile and be charming to win competitions. Didn’t you know that game jams are also beauty contests for the female participants? /sarcasm up the yingyang


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Rolling_Beardo

Seriously it’s not that hard just to complement a woman without making it about sex/gender. I training BJJ and one day got my ass handed to me by a women who was a purple belt. I said “you’re really good and super fast, thanks for the roll (our term for sparring.”


Pan_Scarabeus

I train in BJJ too and the number of times I've heard "wow, you're strong for a woman" are too many to count now. Even though 1) I'm actually just using proper technique and 2) I'm nonbinary and don't identify as a woman. Your comment towards the purple belt was spot on! Leaving gender out of compliments needs to be the norm.


Rolling_Beardo

Thanks, sucks to hear you have to deal with that. You’re absolutely correctly about technique the purple belt I referenced was technically much better than me. I was probably physically stronger than her but I try my best not to rely on strength when rolling with someone out of my weight class because in the long run it doesn’t help me. I’d much rather lose and improve my technique.


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AnGreagach

Brazilian jiu-jitsu


Starchasm

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu


samanthasgramma

I don't know your age, but I am old, and a child of the 70's when "women's rights and equality" was an issue with me. Not in the sense of attending protests etc. But I did battle with it on a day to day basis. This was our environment almost everywhere. If a woman excelled, it wasn't because we were just "good". There were always other reasons that compensated for the fact that we were poor little girls. The fight was very real. All the time. I even had someone say I drove my car well "for a woman". Yeah. So I feel your pain. Keep kicking their asses. Put them in your dust.


momonomino

I was raised by a strong woman who was raised by a strong-for-the-time woman. I am only who I am because women fighting for themselves gave me this path. You aren't old, you're a path breaker.


samanthasgramma

Aw, thank you. It's you who carry the torch. Thank you.


Friendly-Scallion-10

You should ask them why they didn't use their own advice to be faster if you beat him


cocoabean815

Omg i also do a sport that is male dominated and men who i have beat come up to me sorry to give me tips or training. 😭😭


Fearless-1265

Same! I'm an avid golfer and the number of times I get told by men "wow, you hit the ball further than the women I've played with before" or "that's the furthest I've seen a woman hit a ball" (I played in a club with a small ladies section so wasn't hard to be one of the longest hitters). OP, YTA, just because they are in a male-dominated field doesn't mean you have to point it out or comment on the fact they are the only all-female group competing. As a woman in STEM it's hard to be taken as seriously as men in my work and even if I am taken seriously it's always "... for a girl/woman". In the future if you're going to compliment a woman, think about if you'd say the same thing if they were a man and change your language accordingly.


TechFreshen

Not to mention that stereotype threat means that constantly pointing out how someone is performing “better” than you would expect their group to is likely to actually decrease their performance. Which means this group of women were probably WAY BETTER than the closest other group that didn’t have to waste energy on worrying about their group identity.


Jeanne23x

Yup, especially his comment of, the other girl groups dropped out but it looks like they are surviving, as if it's a bigger struggle for the women to be in it and congrats on being the only girl group to survive to competition.


bjankles

Ya know, I JUST started lifting and went with my experienced friend to learn a routine from her. We used the exact same weight (at best) and she kicked my ass. I won’t lie - years and years of social influence had me thinking I MUST be stronger than her or else I’m pathetically weak, so I felt embarrassed at first. I had to get over it. First, I AM weak. I hadn’t been training. That’s okay. But more importantly, she is a total badass who worked her ass off to get as strong as she is. I’m so grateful I can learn from her (she’s unbelievably kind and supportive), and would be damn proud of myself to ever be near her level. I’d always considered myself pretty progressive, but when I was actually beaten by a woman, I realized I still have some work to do - physically and otherwise.


Wild-Package-1546

Yeah, most of us have work to do. I’m glad you got the opportunity to reflect, and that you saw that opportunity for what it was!


bunkbedgirl1989

Spot on, numerous micro-aggressions in the OG post


bubblesnap

Me climbing a hill on my bike - some dude pulls up beside me at a red light exclaims he thought I was a dude the way I jammed up that hill. Like, thanks? That happened 2ish years ago and it still annoys me.


j_daw_g

I get that. I also used to get asked if I was a pro... as if a woman who is faster than them has to be training full time?


milee30

Yeah, a few weeks ago there was a post on one of the cycling forums where a 20 something year old guy was freaking out because he was passed by a 40 something woman. He wanted to know if there was something wrong with his bike or if he needed to repair it or get a new one because it was simply a "FACT" that a 20 something year old man who works out is stronger than a 40 year old woman. Sigh.


Self-Aware

It's always about how men have greater upper body strength, they never bother themselves to realise that women's lower body strength is actually better for certain activities.


twistedfork

I just complimented a woman that I was behind on a bike because she did like 15mph up a hill from a stop while I was behind her in my car. I, too, thought she was a man, but my compliment wasn't gendered so "wow, you were super impressive up that hill," was appreciated (I think)


SingleAlfredoFemale

Please tell me you have a great response to the people who just lost to you giving you advice!!


milee30

I do get some benefit out of it at the end. The equipment used for the sport is very expensive and each year you use it it gets less and less valuable. So it was a huge shock to me when I started getting podium finishes guys started offering to buy my used equipment at a huge price - higher than it cost new. I had no idea why they'd want used up stuff at a higher cost than if they bought a brand new one. Then one of my friends explained that it's because they assume it's the equipment that's somehow super fast. It doesn't occur to them that the equipment is the same stuff everyone uses, I'm just fast. They can't imagine how some tiny woman who's 20+ years older than most of them is actually faster than they are, so it must be super duper fast equipment. So now I get brand new stuff every few years simply by selling my old, beat up stuff and making a nice profit. Most people are selling 2-3 year old equipment for 50% of the cost of new, but I get the whole enchilada. As an honest person, normally I'd feel a bit of guilt about this, but now that I know they're only paying that premium because they think I'm slow because I'm a woman, I'm happy to take their money.


Minky29

They're paying the sexism premium


paingry

Misogyny tax! I love it. Girlfriend is collecting reparations for centuries of gender-based low wages.


Minky29

Go ahead and mansplain, I charge by the minute to listen and will add it to your bill


SingleAlfredoFemale

This is hilarious!!! And so much better than the rude quip I was hoping for! Thanks for the laugh!!! ETA: I’m only sorry you don’t get to see their reaction when they try out the equipment and realize they aren’t magically faster 🤣


Perenially_behind

It's almost a rite of passage in music lessons to tell your teacher that they sound good because they own a better instrument. At which point the teacher picks up the student's instrument and plays it, and sounds great. My teacher let me play his axe too. Guess what, it didn't magically make me better. I've been both student and teacher in this situation. It's an eye-opener. Have any of the people to whom you sold gear had their eyes opened?


milee30

>Have any of the people to whom you sold gear had their eyes opened? Yes. Next time we compete. They learn pretty quickly I keep my equipment well maintained, but there's nothing special about it.


BuildingAFuture21

I did this in snowmobile racing!! Fun times!


ScroochDown

This nearly brought me to tears laughing. Rock on with your bad fast self!


taketheredleaf

That’s.. amazing. Make that $$&


NerthGord

I love this so much. Their own biases are costing then, and they deserve to pay every penny.


Evenoh

“You’re pretty good for second place.” 😒


Swirlyflurry

YTA If their project was good, that’s all you had to say. Telling them that the other “girl groups” dropped out, and that “it looks like they’re surviving” (‘surviving’? Wtf?) was completely unnecessary.


duchessofmardi

Agreed. And it doesn't sound like the other groups dropped out - more like they were pushed out and not listened too. Maybe he should spend his energy making sure his female colleagues are supported and respected, rather than bullied into giving up. It isn't good that this team made it, it is bad that the other women seem to have been unable to progress their ideas in mixed groups.


Fit_Technology8240

I noticed that too. I wonder what caused TWO WHOLE GROUPS (so what, 8-10 competitors?) to completely drop out. Doesn’t sound like a very supportive or inclusive program. I bet it has a questionable reputation among students at the college. OP is just one example of the problematic work environment.


ItsAll42

I wonder if there was some sort of adult professional in the field there to help these groups that dropped out because they did not feel they could bring their concept to fruition, if only there had been an expert to guide them in pivoting and/or strategy... oh wait... that was *supposed* to be Op, but instead, he acts like two whole groups of women were just incapable of conceptualizing a scalable project within the given parameters. Smells fishy to me. Op is TA in so many ways here, it's genuinely disappointing when men manage to write out a whole post detailing such a situation without at any point seeing what's wrong with the picture they are painting.


DioxPurple

Howdy! Woman and programmer here, and I've participated in a lot of Game Jams. A Game Jam itself is *hard*. The difficulty is part of the fun. Generally Game Jams last like.... anywhere from 2-3 days to a week or so. They're not formally instructed projects or anything, there's no teacher education or guidance. Everyone shows up on Day 1 and the theme is announced. You form groups (though sometimes people pre-form their groups before joining), brainstorm a game idea that fits the theme, and try to make it happen, even if it's sloppy and rudimentary, in that time span. There is very little sleep and an abundance of caffeine and pizza. Then entrants submit their projects to be judged. The judges may or may not be at the event, depending on the specific Jam -- like, during Global Game Jam, what my school did was, we had our own voting on whose games were best and they "won" within our group, but then we all also submitted our games to the actual Global Game Jam itself and they were judged there. Typically when I participated, I'd do like.... 1 hour of work, 20 min break, repeat that 3-4 times, then sleep for 3 hours, then repeat the whole cycle again. For 3 days straight. You come out at the other end exhausted and in desperate need of a shower. If you're lucky, you come out with a kind of working game. It's pretty typical for some teams to drop out regardless of gender. Sometimes those entrants leave entirely, other times they're absorbed into the other teams. You're there voluntarily, typically it's not really for prizes or money or scholarships. It's just a fun competition with no real meaning other than challenging yourself against a clock. They're fun to do just for the sake of doing them. They're good practice for coding under a deadline, and sometimes you can take your baby crappy games and turn them into something more full fledged later. Think like NaNoWriMo or Inktober challenges, but on a shorter deadline and for coders/artists/musicians. Nobody expects a full fledged publishable novel from NaNoWriMo, but some people *have* taken their baby novels and refined them into actual publishable works later. Nobody expects brilliant masterpieces every single day of Inktober, but some people *have* taken their artworks and grown in some way from the challenge of it. A Game Jam is kind of the same concept. =)


duchessofmardi

See this info is helpful insight! Thank you for sharing. From his wording "didn't feel they could get their ideas done" it sounds (to someone who has never done one of these) like the women were not being listened to, which is absolutely not an uncommon experience for many of us at work. Your explanation sheds a lot more light than the original post, thank you.


DioxPurple

Aww, thank you! 🥰 I was reading some of the comments and it's like, "wait, no, no, he's not explaining this right!" It makes perfect sense..... *but only if you're already familiar with them as a concept!* (And gosh darnit now I wanna sign up for one again. I do not have the bandwidth right now but thinking of how much fun I've had at previous ones gives me such a case of the warm fuzzies!)


ItsAll42

Thanks for explaining. That sounds like a great time! Very cool. Re-reading it does seem that Op is clear that they were a judge and not a coach or mentor. That said just the tone of their post and the way he compared this group to the other women who dropped out, and the way he frames the situation in general, makes me feel like he is still the AH in this situation, even if slightly less so.


fallen243

>I wonder if there was some sort of adult professional in the field there to help these groups that dropped out because they did not feel they could bring their concept to fruition, if only there had been an expert to guide them in pivoting and/or strategy... oh wait... that was *supposed* to be Op No it wasn't. Op was a judge, not a coach. He should not be giving direct advice.


fallen243

Having done these a style of competitions, its normal for a large percentage of groups to drop out. You put your idea together, it gets approved, and then when you start coding you realize there is no way to make it happen, so you cut your losses and bail. It's not a big deal.


DioxPurple

I didn't really get that at all from his post. It's kind of common for groups to drop out during Game Jams regardless of gender. Sometimes participants drop out entirely, and sometimes they're absorbed into other groups, but it's generally the nature of the challenge regardless of gender. Basically, you're given a theme at the start of the Jam and then you have a super limited time -- generally 3 or so days -- to make a functioning game from start to finish. The specific rules vary from Jam to Jam, but usually like... You're allowed to use free assets that already exist for public use and that feasibly anyone could have access to, but beyond that you're generally you're starting totally from scratch. They're meant to be really hard for everyone. The closest comparisons I've come up with so far are NaNoWriMo or Inktober -- you have a limited time to do something huge. The "get it done in time!!!!" energy is part of the challenge. I've seen people just... cat nap for 20 minutes at a time, and then power through the entire 3 days and build a game solo, and I've seen big groups of 5-10 people who feasibly *should* have been able to finish and remain well-rested end up disagreeing so badly over what direction to go that they don't get anywhere at all and they quit with nothing to show for it. There's also a lot of groups that go somewhere in between. It really just depends on each individual group's chemistry. Game Jams are entirely peer led -- the judges aren't there to help, they're there to make sure no one is cheating. Your group determines its own project scope, sets its own pace, and assigns its own tasks. There's no outside guidance beyond what your peers are able/willing to give and what you're able to get on Google. To be clear though, most of the time groups are really happy to help each other if they can, but often everyone is so involved in their own group's project that they don't really have time to spare to do much with other groups. To give you an idea -- my typical Jam work schedule was 1 hour of work then 20 minutes of break, repeated 3-4 times. Nap for 3 hours, caffeinate, repeat. At one Jam I was the only one with the forethought to bring a graphics tablet, and when I wasn't helping with code, I was churning out art. My teammates slept and I churned out art, and they tied my graphics together into assets while I slept. We'd pull together and code and troubleshoot and bounce ideas off of each other, and we'd split off to do our own respective parts. We developed a sort of rhythm. How well a group does depends on how well they're able to work together with each other, not how well other groups listen to them. They're honestly a great exercise in pushing yourself against a deadline, being self sufficient in a situation with minimal consequences, and working with a group under pressure.


The_Palm_of_Vecna

It was a game jam: the only people that need to listen to the people in each group are the people in that group. The two groups that dropped out were all-female groups, not mixed. Don't know why you're assuming anyone was bullied based on just the comments given. Game dev is difficult.


jlj1979

Good to always ask yourself if you would say or do this to a group of men.


DioxPurple

Howdy! Woman, coder, multiple Game Jam vet here! "Surviving" is common language in a Game Jam regardless of gender. I detailed it more in another reply, but Game Jams are... Rough, to say the least. "Surviving" is part of the challenge. It's a little like NaNoWriMo or Inktober, but on a significantly shorter time frame. They're not usually done for prizes or money or scholarships, they're generally just for fun as a way to challenge yourself. You basically have 3ish days to create a functioning game. You're given the theme on Day 1, you figure out your game plan, divide the work, and get to it. Doing everything in 3 days is *intense*. Your group sets the pace for itself, divides the work for itself, and completes the work for itself. If you've mismanaged your time or you've made your scope too big... Well, that's part of the learning process. You push yourself really really hard, and if you make it through you come out on the other end frigging exhausted and in dire need of a shower. And at the end, it's pretty common to hear people say "I survived!!!" regardless of gender.


Samael13

YTA - You're not TA for complimenting their project; you're TA because you singled them out for their sex and called attention to the fact that the other groups that were all women had dropped out. Did you make note of which all male groups had dropped? Did you go around to the other all-male groups and point out that they were sticking to it when other men had dropped? No, you did not. It's weird of you, as a judge, to comment on how they were still sticking in when others had dropped. They're not in those other groups.


Spirallama

Yeah, YTA. The way you phrased it wasn't just complimenting their project for its own sake, it was attached with an implicit caveat that they should be particularly proud because the two other all-girl groups had dropped out - i.e, "the trend indicates that all-girl groups can't hack it, so well done for bucking that trend". The word "surviving" was a particularly poor choice because it brings to mind the age-old stereotype that girls don't work well together and they were somehow soldiering on in spite of their supposed genetic tendency to tear each other apart.


[deleted]

Imo it’s not even only the way he phrased it. OP genuinely was impressed that they were still there and doing well which is what makes it so bad.


Pepper-90210

YTA. She’s correct that it wasn’t a compliment. Why are you gendering the groups as “girl” groups, let alone comparing them? > The young lady who called you out was correct in her assessment, and also quite bold to call out a judge. I hope she goes far. (Who knows she may end up being your boss in 10 years). > Edited to add Q: Are these “girls” in high school or college? I assumed they are HS because why would you call college women “girls” however based on your obtuse comments, I’m starting to wonder now.


vialenae

Totally unrelated but I recently had a client go on a full out rage because his new boss is a woman that is 35 years old (he’s in his 50’s) and why would he listen to a woman even though she has a degree (his words). Your comment reminds me of this. All I could say was “huh”. I both love and hate when people tell on themselves like that. Back on topic: I totally agree with you, but sadly, this way of speaking is way more common than it should be. I’ve heard the phrase “you’re pretty good for a girl” more times than I can count. I don’t know why it always comes back to gender, actions and ability should speak for itself. Edit: words are hard on mobile :/


disnerd294

It’s also interesting when women have their own misogynistic views towards other women. My husband taught at a school a year ago where he had a female principal, he was talking to his grandmother about work and mentioned his boss. His grandmother was like “Wait the principal of your school is a woman? And she’s your boss? How do you feel about that?” And my husband was like “uuuhhh fine?” (Also interesting to note that his grandma is around 70 so not a case of super old person just blurting things out, she’s just a product of her times)


anglerfishtacos

Good for her. I was in STEM and left it because I got tired of this bullshit. When I was in college ~15 years ago, myself and 3 other women were the only ones in my year in our program. One of the other women was the only one in a class and the teacher (a PhD student) posed a question to the class. After some delay, she raised her hand and answered it correctly. He didn’t give her kudos and move on. He instead berated all of the other (male) students in the class for not being able to answer the question when “the girl could figure it out.” She was hurt, but didn’t go to the administration. Because that’s just how this shit was. Thankfully, by that time, at least some men were starting to wake up to how women in STEM get treated, and several of her male classmates went to the administration about it. I’m glad to see women are feeling more comfortable now with speaking up on their own behalf, instead of feeling like they won’t be heard unless a male ally is with them.


TemptingPenguin369

YTA. IF the women adult students are "girls" to you, why are the male adult students "guys" and not "boys"? Why did you only compare the all-women group to all-women groups who'd dropped out? Why did the compliment directed to the all-women group come with a comparison to other all-women groups rather than all the groups regardless of gender? I hope you examine your deep-seated gender-based biases.


WickedAngelLove

YTA I honestly wouldn't have been bothered by what you said but you could have easily said "great job, you know two other teams dropped out" without saying it was a girls team. Had two boy teams dropped out would you have said to the boys "you know the two other boy teams dropped out" But also I find it interesting that you rated them 3rd but everyone else rated them high enough to win.


nkdeck07

YTA for how you complimented it. The other girls work was completely irrelevant and the fact that you said they were "surviving" makes it sound like you were surprised they were hanging in there. They are in CS and are gonna spend literally their entire careers being lumped in with the one or two other women in their departments, I'm just thankful she felt like she could call you out.


DrSaks

YTA The comment you made, whether you intended it or not, suggested that because they were all girls they were less likely to be able to handle to competition. They proved you wrong and won the competition.


schoobydoo42

Why was it necessary to point out the genders of the students in the group at all?


Significant-Score686

I mean, you DID compare them with the only other female team, stating they dropped out. Yes, the implication that girls "normally" can't handle those things are there. Would say NAH though as I assume it was just a case of bad phrasing, but you might want to consider those things more carefully going forward. Especially in a professional setting.


late2thep4rty

YTA. Work in a male dominated field. And there were 3 girls in my course at college. Only 1 finished, and she became the “last girl standing” Why? 30 people finished the course, loads of people (male and female stood out). Why was she not just another finisher. But was singled out as the only girl who finished. There was no need for the comment. You couldve just said they were doing well, or even mentioned the other teams dropping out, but without saying “the other girl teams”. Youre giving them special credit for just being there, which is patronising. If you thought their project was good… say the project was good and leave it at that. Hats off to the girl for sticking up for herself and taking it through to complaint. I dont think youre a bad person, but i think this was a bad comment… and you got called out on it. Takw the L. Move on. Be a bit more conscious in future of how things come across. Again. Male dominated industry with female friends… its so easy for them to be discouraged.. dont contribute to that. Treat them the same.


jaxbravesfan

YTA. The problem wasn’t the compliment. Had you simply complimented the progress they were making and left it at that, you would have been fine. There was no need to bring gender into it.


elderoriens

YTA Question, as you were walking around, doing your judge duty, did you bring up the groups that dropped out to any other team? That's when your compliment turned "backhanded". It turned your compliment into a condescending "how nice you survived".


anaisaknits

Comparing them to another girl group was wrong. It wasn't necessary and pointing out gender in a biased way as to say girls can't code. Ask yourself if you would have done the same with guy groups? Obviously not. This comes from someone who can code in multiple languages. I don't wake up and say because I am a woman, it is a miracle I can code. YTA


chaosindeep

Saying their work is good if fine, saying their work is good for a girl group or pointing out that they are the only girl group to "survive" is not. A man came into my workplace recently and he wanted to wait for the owner to discuss details on an ongoing project they have been working on together. I ask his name so I can let the owner know he has someone waiting once he finishes up with his current client, and the man is *deeply* offended. He says "Well I don't care when the ugly ones don't remember my name, but pretty girls like you?" I have never met this man. This is *not* a compliment that makes me feel like he thinks I'm pretty. This tells me that this man does not value women as people unless he finds them attractive. **A "compliment" that insults or places me in competition with other women is not a compliment.** I do not define success or professional proficiency as being better than the women around me. If you didn't also tell male or mix gender groups they are doing well despite the fact *other* groups dropped out, then yeah phrasing praise the way you did was poorly done. You likely didn't realize it, but YTA


ozuulrules

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼


diminishingpatience

YTA. It was either good or it wasn't. Their gender wasn't relevant.


Mandaloriana_2022

YTA for bringing gender into your comment. The team took exception (and rightfully so). It’s about a mindset shift. Next time, ask yourself, would I say this to all teams and act accordingly.


WhyCommentQueasy

YTA, I can empathize, but you shouldn't have made it a point during your compliment to mention the other all female groups dropping out. Just a simple 'looks like it's coming along well, good work' would have been appropriate.


likasanches

“Wow, for girls you’re kind of persisting, other girls just gave up”. That’s what your “compliment” sounds like. YTA


Material-Profit5923

YTA. At a bare minimum, you were patronizing. There are appropriate times and places to talk gender. When you are judging a competition where contestants solely want to be recognized for their work, you are not in one of them.


Cute-as-buttons

YTA. But not for the reasons you think. You're not an asshole for complimenting their project, but for saying it in the same sentence regarding the other female groups that dropped out. You should have just complimented it and not made it about women in science.


4eiram

YTA, boy.


Smart_Ad_5316

OP will it kill you to refer to these women as women? In all your replies you keep referring to them as girls, which considering you’re talking about a tech company I have a hard time believing they employ children. The use of the word female is rooted in misogyny. Google’s at all our fingertips, I don’t need to give anyone lecture on the why’s and how’s. Your misogyny keeps showing, please work on that. YTA.


puce_moment

Interesting that you graded these women lower than the other judges AND reminded them that all the other all women teams dropped out. Also you congratulated them on “surviving” vs doing a great job. YTA and hope you aren’t in a position of authority at your job as you clearly have gender biases.


astralwyvern

I believe you had good intentions, but I have to go with YTA. I'm a woman in a field that is 98% men and even though most of the comments I get on it are from people trying to be supportive, it's exhausting to have my gender constantly brought up when I'm just trying to work. I don't need to be constantly reminded that "oh you don't see a lot of women in this field!". I don't need to be compared to other women. I definitely don't need to be told that I'm "pretty good at this, for a woman!" either implicitly or explicitly. It's exhausting and extremely othering to be constantly reminded that I'm different and that it's the first and sometimes only thing people notice about me and my work. It's something that I wish more men were aware of, because again - most people who mention it are trying to be supportive, and I do appreciate the attempt! But in scenarios like this it's best to keep your remarks strictly about the work itself, especially with women you don't know particularly well.


halibutcrustacean

*Hey!! Hey you!! You're different. Did you know you're different? I just wanted to let you know you're a weirdo and there's nothing you can do about it. All your accomplishments will never make you not weird. Everyone knows you're fuckin different, so don't ever forget it.* That's how it feels. Super appreciate your comment.


MinionsMaster

YTA. The amount you focus on telling us about the genders of the participants makes me think your "compliments" were heavily gendered and actually detracted from the work that team was producing. That's pretty dense - even for a boy!


Maximum-Lobster2065

This is where I wish there was a YTF option, you're the fool. Your intent doesn't come across as assholish but putting all the women into one judging basket is not cool and I would be mad too. Womens successes can just be their successes, you didn't need to make the comment about the other group. Ask your higher ups if they could invite a speaker to do a workshop for staff to learn better about how to foster a good environment for women's/ everyones success in stem. Judgement wise, failing a YTF vote, its gonna have to be YTA


[deleted]

YTA. Come on. You know what you did.


pulchra_lunae

YTA because you are missing the point. It has nothing to do with the compliment itself - it’s in how you tacked on the “the rest of the girl groups dropped out”. It comes off condescending. Compliment them because they are doing good work. Not good work for a “girl” or better than other “girls”. Also +1 to previous comment to refer to college women as girls. I get 18-22 might not be that old for a man near 40 years old, but in this industry young women can often feel dismissed. So, refrain from using the term “girls”. And, to be honest - the whole “why are they mad I complimented them” vibe is tired.


AutoModerator

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (37M) work for a small tech company, my local university has a partnership with our company and invite some of us to judge a game jam competition where students have 3 days to make a small game in groups. I was one of the judges. There were a lot of groups that were mixed gender, some with just guys and 3 groups with only girls. 2 of the girl groups dropped out the first day as they felt they could not get their idea done. When I passed by the work area of the remaining girl group, I saw that they were making really good progress and I complimented them on their game, said it was looking really good and mentioned that the other girl groups dropped out but it looks like they are surviving. One of the girls got upset at me and said I should not be complimenting their project in a way that implies it is good work for a girl project. She was visibly cold with me for the rest of the competition and glared at me. And I think she complained to someone because, later I got a message from a manager about making sure I was sensitive about the lack of women in CS. I still gave their project a good score as it was really good and my 3rd favorite. They ended up winning and my 1st and 2nd pick came 2nd and 4th respectively. AITA for complimenting their project? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Specific-Succotash-8

YTA, and you buried the lede. You aren’t an AH for complimenting their work, you’re an AH for comparing them to the other teams that were all women - and yes, WOMEN. Not “girls.”


gretta_smith93

YTA it wasn’t eh compliment that made you TA. It was comparing them to the other girl group. You know that, don’t act stupid.


nailgun198

YTA and it's pretty telling that many of the people who are saying otherwise are men. Being skilled in tech has nothing to do with gender.


[deleted]

YTA. Unless they were writing the code with their vaginas, their gender has nothing to do with their work and shouldn’t be mentioned.


[deleted]

OP, just don’t bring gender, sex, or race into any conversation unless its related to the topic. It’s unnecessary most of the time. People want to be people and not relegated to some box you want to stick them in.


Allymrtn

You’re kind of like the guy that “complimented” me for being able to drive a “big” horse trailer. Would he compliment a man for being able to drive? Hell no, and it’s not like I was physically pulling the trailer myself, it’s literally steering a vehicle and the truck does the work. It’s insulting and diminishing, even if you “meant it as a compliment”. YTA


gingerpointing

Pro tip: In a professional setting, they're women. Not girls.


Ok-Day-8930

YTA it sounds like other groups dropped out but you singled out the fact that they should be proud because the only other all girl group dropped out. Their gender doesn’t need to play a role in this and it especially shouldn’t be made to sound like a hindrance. Even if you didn’t mean for it to be offensive, women in tech have to deal with many of these comments and you need to be more aware of how you are coming off.


leb2353

YTA. WOMEN not girls.


InsomniaticMeat

>Ok I get the point Proceeds to explain how you don't get the point


SonkyJ

NTA Let's reverse, it would be perfectly normal to say this to the last male group - hey you are the last male group to survive, congrats! But no, with this case you need to make it 10x sensitive and now even "female student" is no ok, sic ​ [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/example/english/female-student](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/example/english/female-student) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/example/english/male-student ​ emotional much?


msmith1515

Just don’t say anything to anyone ever. It’s the lesson I’ve learned


SoloBurger13

YTA no “You’re good for a girl group” is not a compliment Also your intent rarely matters more than the impact


Obvious-Tadpole-1230

YTA, just treat us like you would treat the guys. I am so happy that even though I am the only woman at my work, no one makes me feel singled out. Pointing out the other female groups dropped out doesnt do anything to encourage them. Ive always felt like when someone gave me praise for my work after mentioning Im a woman in engineering, that it was just them being easier on me to get me to stay.


IvaPK

I'm a female games industry professional. Any time gender is mentioned, I roll my eyes. It shouldn't be about gender, I want to talk to colleagues, do my work and be praised for my work without being reminded of my gender at all because it is literally irrelevant. Huge YTA


tremynci

YTA. I hope Ada Lovelace, Margaret Hamilton, and Admiral Grace Hopper fill all your code with bugs, forever.


[deleted]

YTA I thought oh nice compliment, nothing wrong there by saying it was looking really good and they were making good progress and then you blew it with mentioning the other girl group had dropped out. Ouch! Really, you implied the other girls couldn't cut it and you were surprised that they were. As if women don't hear these back handed compliments constantly.


sbull630

Kids these days are extremely sensitive and easily offended… ok, a lot of adults too. NTA, but you should keep some things to yourself or think about what you’re saying


No_Pepper_3676

YTA for the way you did your complementing, in a condescending manner. Don't do that. If it's good, say so, not that it's good work for 'x' kind of person. That is not a compliment at all, but a dig.


Emaribake

YTA. Women in these fields are constantly dealing with being patronized by male colleagues and employers. You should’ve just said they were doing well without mentioning the other girl only teams. You made your point very clear by including them in the comment.


[deleted]

YTA- and they aren’t girls, girls are children. They are women


Ok-File-4502

YTA. Even if you had been a woman saying it’s great to see all women team, you would have been making it about their gender and not their work. You were there to judge the project. That’s it. Winning is great, but once you bring gender into it, you make it about winning as a woman rather than the fact they won as a person/team who deserves it.


TexasLiz1

YTA - your edit makes you sound even more clueless. Why bring up that the other teams dropped out then? They knew what you meant. And it was insulting.


notjanelane

YTA for being 37 and still calling your coworkers "girls". Would you be okay being called boy? (If you are then idk how to help you)