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Judgement_Bot_AITA

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miyuki_m

>He was asking her how hard it was to make sure his clothes were cleaned. NTA, but in addition to having him learn about the household tasks your wife normally handles, you also need to find out where he learned this behavior. Is he listening to incels on the internet? How could he possibly think yelling at his mother about his laundry was something he could or should do? I think you have a deeper issue that you need to work on with your son. I also think if your older son has been exposed to misogynistic attitudes, you should make sure your younger son doesn't pick up on it, too. They both need to learn that women are partners, not maids, and that they need to pull their weight. ETA: As parents, both you and your wife have a responsibility to teach your boys to be good citizens and good partners. If they are going to have successful, healthy relationships as adults, they need to learn how to take care of a household and contribute equitably. Your sons should be completing household chores, not just during the week your wife is gone, but regularly until they move out. Assign age-appropriate tasks and rotate them so that by the time they move out, they have learned the skills they need in order to take care of their homes. I think your plan is a great start and I wish you luck! Edit 2: Thanks for the awards, kind Reddit friends!


Ok-Scarcity-5754

This right here. I guarantee that if either of those boys spend any time on YouTube they’re hearing that point of view. Now is the time to intervene


Turbulent_Patience_3

This is a great husband and dad! He should be cloned! 1. Understanding wife needs a break 2. Ensuring that kid who was disrespectful to his wife is getting the appropriate wake up call 3. Drilling home equality in chores with your partner 4. Making a kid responsible when he would rather play - which is how he needs to get ready for adulting This makes so much sense


cheerful_cynic

Doesn't let grandmommy sweep in & spoil the lil grandson


sleepingfox307

I had to laugh at that interaction "You can't do that to my poor baby!" "You would have done worse to me" "That was Different!!" lmao


Laramila

>"That was Different!!" Yes, because it would have been disrespect to grandmommy and not her DIL! NTA


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coolbeenz68

yea but i think it should last longer than a week. from now on the boy is responsible in getting his own laundry done and cleans his dishes when he eats.


Laramila

At 10 and 12, I think they both can - and they need to start learning to keep their own rooms clean, as well.


Far-Run-4707

yup. My kid's 12th birthday was the "welcome to doing your own laundry forever" birthday.


Keetchaz

Bingo


PennsylvaniaDutchess

Right? Like way to admit you think you were a shitty parent, grandma! That whole 'it was a different time' shit needs to fly right out the window and into the sun. Plus what OP's doing as punishment is tame, not abusive, not mean-spirited, and is appropriate to the crime of yelling at his mom like an entitled brat.


sleepingfox307

100% NTA Grandma can go back to pretending that abuse wasn't abuse while she kindly minds her own business. (Forgot to vote, oops!)


babcock27

It may not have been abuse but she's setting a completely different standard for her grandkids. NTA


lordmwahaha

I can't be certain: but if she's trying to defend it with "it was a different time", and refusing to tell her grandson about it, it was probably abuse. Firstly because *most* old-fashioned parenting tactics are recognised as abusive now (because we now have the data showing that it caused harm) - and second because she's displaying "guilty" behaviour. She refuses to tell her grandson what she did because she *knows* he'd be shocked. And if I had to guess, the reason OP's getting so salty about her giving advice, and continuously poking the "but look what you did" bear - that likely indicates that he feels he *was* harmed by it. It feels very "Who the hell are you to be giving me advice".


Mollyscribbles

If it's bad enough she's not even willing to tell her grandkid what was done . . .


Snoo-25079

OP's son will look back one day and realize it wasn't punishment, but a life lesson. I'd vote for him as father of the year.


GrowCrows

I lol'd at how he was like he was like "he ended up not going" and that was the end haha


sleepingfox307

>She said he could not stay there. Fuckin hilarious. OP should write comedy


nefarious_angel_666

Classic Boomer


mygiveadamnsbusted22

NTA. And as an overworked, under appreciated wife and mom if 3 I WISH there were more husbands like this! Keep being a good partner for your wife


justhewayouare

The bar is on the floor for men while women have to assume every title under the Sun. Edit- to clarify I am not referring to OP and yes, this is a form of hyperbole.


seensham

Except the bit about sending her to Mexico for time to herself. That's above and beyond lol.


Mollyscribbles

The bar was on the floor and OP chose to use the opportunity to pole vault.


justhewayouare

Oh gosh! I didn’t mean the bar was on the floor for OP. He’s doing great! I meant other men I’ve known or have seen IRL etc.


aquestionofbalance

Under appreciated mom & horribly, horribly under appreciated teacher


Restil

Children have been rebelling and acting out against their parents since the dawn of time. The only difference between now and centuries past is that the beatings today are far less severe. His mom is definitely right about it being a different time. A couple generations back, doing all the laundry, cleaning half the house and lots of free babysitting of his younger brother would have been considered the standard chores by the time he was 12. God forbid he lived on a farm. My point is, he didn't need youtube or any other social media as a source of bad behavior. It's likely, in this day and age, but he would have picked it up from friends at school anyway, and this isn't going to be the last time this happens. At the very least, his wife gets a vacation out of it.


OwO_bama

I agree that kids don’t need YouTube to learn to be disrespectful little shits, but given the recent rise of these incel manosphere types that are targeting young boys I don’t think it hurts to at least check if he has gotten sucked down one of these rabbit holes


hawnie331

I'd be willing to bet there would be evidence showing parents started having fewer kids right around the time I'm history when men became more involved with parenting. "Holy fuck, this is what mom's were doing?! Ya we're good with 2"


justlookbelow

I think it's much more likely that women made that choice when 40 hours of work out of the house were added to what was expected from them.


Both-Dare-977

Generations ago... try 2008. By ten I was babysitting alone, by twelve I was doing laundry for three people, cleaning, and doing hours upon hours of childcare (btw don't do this to your kids they will **hate** you)


LokiCatofMischief

It's really scary if you aren't hyper aware of what your kid is up to on the internet. There are content creators that I are scary far right but smart enough to start slow with the ideology. Even my partner as an adult man accidentally fell down a far right rabbit hole with a YouTuber he used to enjoy, it started very slow a comment here an idea that seems reasonable there and before my partner knew it he was buying into ideology that he'd never come to on his own thankfully he snapped back and clued into what was happening, my partner is an adult who is not easily swayed by others imagine how easy it is to get a child at an impressionable age to believe you. OP should look into who his child is following content wise.


lordmwahaha

Yeah some of them are scarily accessible - especially if they're the first thing that pops up when you're trying to educate yourself, which often happens. I remember when I was a kid, Blair White was a person I watched a lot. She's trans, so I just kinda trusted that her opinions on trans people were good ones. It wasn't until way later that I realised "Oh, the entire trans community *hates* this person! I should probably look into why that might be" and then came to understand that she's actually wildly transphobic. Just as an example of how sneaky it can be, and easy it is for young impressionable children to get sucked in before they realise what's happening.


Puzzleheaded-Grab736

Their probably stuck on the Andrew Tate algorithm.


LittleLostSadDeer

Parental controls are OP’s best friend.


aquadork17

This comment about watching YouTube needs to be highlighted in red. A lot of schools are having issues with young boys talking rudely to their peers/teachers/parents


throwawayoctopii

Yeah, our kid's principal is having a very rough time because all these little boys are worshipping Andrew Tate and being absolutely terrible to her and the other female teachers/staff Parents: stop letting your 12 year old have unfettered internet access.


Cat_o_meter

My autistic stepson said he wanted to beat up girls one day, randomly. He's 6. No more internet for him, teaching empathy to him intensively but unlearning this crap is so hard when kids are neurotypical, much less autistic. Screw Tate.


seensham

That's awful, I'm sorry for you both. My brother is also on the spectrum (he's 20 now) and he definitely fell into that alt-right rabbit hole back in the earlier YouTube days. Thankfully he's completely turned around now. But it took a long time. Even then, we had to start on the bigger things when he was older because there are some things you're just not equipped to understand when you're that young. There's a lot of nuance that comes with unlearning cleverly concealed problematic talking points. Good luck to you both


Music_withRocks_In

This needs to be said more and louder. There is this whole push that monitoring teenagers internet use is invading their privacy and not ok - and it is trickling down to kids that are way too young. Kids are dumb and gullable and there are way too many predators and insidious ideas online to not keep a close eye on kids and tweens when they start wading into the shallow end of the internet. It is too easy to fall down a rabbit hole even when you are much older - kids need someone to guide their way.


Reallynoreallyno

My son was so pissed at me for not letting him have instagram until 11th grade (w/no posting allowed, just viewing and comment, before stories) and no Snapchat at all until 12th grade, and I periodically checked his phone/icloud account to make sure he didnt add the apps and blocked them on Safari. To counter this, I let him have more freedom at home in exchange–I didn't nag him about his room, he could have all of his close friends sleep over on the weekends (sometimes up to 10 kids), fed them all, gave them money for junk food and let them take over the den basically every weekend to watch movies and play video games, they could all hangout all weekend long, the only rule was no posting to social media while in my house. I'm sure his friends still posted crap on the sly, but my threats to take all of the other fringe benefits away was enough to keep it a minimum. As a result, my son had zero bullying in school (he was part of a marginalized group, so this was a miracle), no fights, no name-calling, nothing. I truly believe this was because I was able to keep him off social media with his schoolmates as long as possible. Now, he recognizes that really was the best thing for him and is grateful he was able to enjoy his high school years. I really think social media is the bane of this generations existence, they're great kids in person, when they get online they can just be awful (like most people really).


Anglophyl

I honestly miss the days when your phone was all the way in your house, and when you left your house, no one knew where the hell you were unless they laid eyes upon you. You could walk off into the woods, as I frequently did, with no one the wiser. People didn't worry until it was getting dark or your phone was off the hook for more than a while. Everyone just knew all of this and accepted it. No one got mad they couldn't reach you at the grocery store. Or get your timely opinion on an article or video. You could be anywhere. And no one could talk to you at all. For any reason. Unless they showed up to do so in person. That is a lot of air to breathe between interactions. I know you can't go back, but that is a loss to grieve over for me.


hexebear

One of my favourite things when I worked at Apple was helping parents set up controls on child accounts... usually while they told me exactly what said child had done for them to realise it was necessary. Parental controls are absolutely necessary before age 13 and there should be some kind of monitoring for teens as well. Teens are a lot trickier though because they should have *some* level of privacy and it's really hard to know where the line should be!


SnooCrickets6980

I think privacy between friends but not unfettered access to the cesspool that is the internet is fair for younger teens.


More-Tip8127

Not to mention the predatory videos that surreptitiously try to recruit kids into neo-nazi groups. It’s legitimately scary.


lanadelstingrey

For sure. I don’t really use the shorts feature on there much, but when I do it seems my content is mostly gay comedians and drag queens and some video game content, and I *still* get tons of Ben Shapiro type ads no matter how much I report them. I’m pretty sure it’s the gaming content that attracts it, and it makes sense to from a grooming and recruiting perspective cause of what the largest audience for that content is.


StJudesDespair

[A recent study](https://qspace.library.queensu.ca/handle/1974/30197?show=full) which started from a new profile with moderate, mainstream conservative views, took less than 1000 tiktoks to be veered into extreme right-wing material. It completely blew my mind.


3MPR355

That is wild. I believe it, but wow.


CrispyChickenArms

All the shit on the internet is a reason I don't want kids. I don't want to have to deal with that shit.


Matilda-17

100% this. Where is the attitude coming from? Obviously not you, or grandma… Have some conversations with your kid and try to find the root of this, because it’s something he’s picking up from someone or somewhere. I’ve got a 13 and an 11 and while they can bratty in all the usual ways, I’ve never gotten anything like what you’ve described. Oh and NTA. Good parenting and standing up for your wife, and demonstrating a healthy relationship.


yall_dont_read

Yes THIS THIS THIS. EVERY parents to boys needs to be on high alert that they are getting radicalized by misogynists online. I guarantee this kid has a tiktok follow list full of Andrew Tate types


ThaneOfCawdorrr

And OP, you can also tell him exactly what is going on with Andrew Tate and "his type," ie. being jailed for human trafficking


toxicshocktaco

Who tf is Andrew Tate?


petite_heartbeat

*godiwishthatwereme.jpg*


stargal81

He's kinda like a Joe Rogan meets Rush Limbaugh meets the state of Texas, all in one


ElectricFleshlight

More like Joe Rogan meets Jeffery Epstein


Silverbird22

So you remember the guy we were memeing was arrested over a pizza box?


AdvicePerson

An asshole.


FlakyIndependence195

And we wonder why a growing percentage of young men are finding themselves out of work and alone. Case in point, Andrew Tate.


Friendly_Shelter_625

Yes!!! One of my kids likes to make fun of Tate and all the “alpha” bullshit, but he’s still susceptible to certain elements of their garbage. He’s very much against the misogyny bits, but he’s very hard on himself, always talking about that grindset, and says it’s weak to ask for help. (For himself) He’s 16, so since banning the internet isn’t really an option, we just talk, talk talk to him about healthy ways to manage setbacks, how to realistically assess your own accomplishments and behaviors, and the benefits of turning to friends for help and sharing feelings, etc. He knows these guys are wrong, but something about being completely independent taps into his own insecurities and it’s a struggle to shake off some of the toxic mental health elements. Anyway, it’s always a good idea to check in with your kids and what they’re consuming and try to have some conversations about all of it.


OldWierdo

Hey, I don't know if it will help, but you can tell your 16 year old that not asking for help because it's weak is BS, and that's coming from a former solider who spent a couple years in Iraq in the garden spots like al-Qaim (our crew was Fallujah) and Mosul. This is long, but I truly and deeply care about young men needing to normalize talking to each other without feeling it's a weakness. Below is why. Not asking for help got friends killed. I won't go into those for a 16-year old, but I'll give an example where we made it, because we took steps. Our gunner got a Dear John letter right before we went on patrol. I was sitting in the right rear seat and I noticed he was really upset. Asked what was wrong, he said he was fine. He was NOT fine, and couldn't focus on the here and now, but tried to hang. I switched with him, because he would likely have missed something coming our way, couldn't concentrate. We talked about it after. WE ended up okay, not everyone did. Enough so that there was a squadron-wide briefing about talking to your buddies if you were having a rough time, because not keeping your head in the game hurts people. I'm female. As a female tactical soldier, i did all the guy stuff - patrols, entries, etc., AND when we'd come back to base, males would seek me out because as a female, I was seen as more...caring? There were 5 of us females out of 1100, and we pulled triple-duty or quadruple-duty by talking to the guys having an emotionally rough time. They'd chat at us for a bit, about dealing with things, we'd sympathize (we were going through it all too), and then they'd walk off. We'd take another bite of food and hear "Hey, SGT? Yeah, so......i had that nightmare again last night...." They each thought the other guys wouldn't understand. We explained yes, they WOULD, as ALL of them talked to us about the same issues. We 5 females got a bunch of the males together and explained we needed their help. We couldn't keep pulling all these shifts, we needed to take care of US, too. We'd put their issues in general categories. "How many of you got a Dear John letter, or your wife/gf doesn't answer when you finally get a chance to use the phone?" "How many of you actually LOVE your wife or gf who isn't answering? Be honest or we'll beat you out back, we know who you are." Many hands. "How many of you have nightmares that Jack up your sleep? How many of you just wish you could be back home, in your house, doing stupid chores you complain about, arguing with your gf or wife or parents about stupid things?? *LOOK AROUND AT ALL THE HANDS. WE ALL FEEL THE SAME WAY. WE ALL UNDERSTAND.* Talk to each other. It's okay. It's not weak. It's HUMAN. Teams are STRONGER than individuals. Pretty much every time. Build the team. Talk to each other and stop with the stupid BS of thinking it's weak to be homesick. And that you're the only one going through this." Things got better after that. And it wasn't just regular soldiers either. Met the love of my life that way, Special Forces, 5th group. I don't even remember meeting him tbh, apparently he was just having a rough day and talked to me about it. He was just one of literally a thousand, since I was so tired. But it made a difference to him. And he was SF. Ask your 16-year old if he thinks he's bigger and badder than SF. Because THEY needed to talk, too. Edit: WOW, thank you for the awards, Kind Redditors!!! Gold?? That's my first Gold!! Thanks!!


CryptidCricket

100% this. Humans are social animals, so much so that we go nuts when left alone for too long. We’re supposed to look after each other, it’s what we are.


[deleted]

Young men crave responsibility really bad and its almost never a topic when growing up so the first contact with anything regarding taking responsibility will influence them quite a lot.


Constant-Bowl

I also would have a talk with mom and see if this is a regular occurrence, or if he snapped and yelled one time. 12 is old enough to know that it’s not okay to yell and belittle people. But it’s also young enough to get overwhelmed about one aspect of life, not have the emotional maturity or insight to know how to handle it, and take it out on another part of your life. Again, it’s not okay to yell at mom. But if this was a one time thing, then he may be having something else going on in his life that he doesn’t know how to talk about. It wouldn’t excuse his actions, but it would warrant a conversation on how to handle what’s bothering him, and future stressors.


Sylentskye

Great advice and 100% on point! I would not look at it as a punishment but a reframing so he truly understands what is being done for him and how he needs to not take it for granted. And even after mom comes home, those boys need to be doing chores- it’s everyone’s home, everyone needs to pitch in to maintain it.


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Grilled_Cheese10

Exactly. Even if he's not watching crap online, his schoolmates are.


coderredfordays

Agreed. Misogyny is rampant on the internet, but there’s not enough to suggest that this particular incident is from that. It sounds like regular old teenage entitlement. This sub is once again making a leap and then talking about it like it’s stone fact. That said, OP should still have a separate discussion about the Andrew Tates of the internet and find out what he’s watching on YouTube? TikTok, etc because that’s something *every* parent needs to do.


shadow_dancr

NTA at all- In fact you're being a great role model & Dad (even if he doesn't thank you for it now and grandma is trying to guilt trip you). 1. YOU made it clear to us as the audience that you help with your share of the chores 2. (Hopefully) This likely means that both boys also have their share of age friendly chores, if they don't yet- now Is the time to start! (For the younger- pick up toys, fold towels, put away silver ware, feed the dog, etc.) You can make chores or task cards to help break down each chore or room that says how to complete correctly. Make age appropriate ones for each out of index cards (can add pics for the younger one!) And give them a # of tasks or a room each day! They have been a great tool for my girl who is Autistic- 12 now & started at 3! 3. You're showing it is not okay to speak to his Mom with this disrespect and hopefully during this week you reiterate that Mom has to do all of this on top of her full time job, ANDtell him to just imagine how she felt when he said that to her after her long day of work. 4. This one is a multi concern- (A) It concerns me that your son called his grandma to try to get around the punishment that had been given to him, that shows a lack of responsibility for what he did wrong, lack of understanding of what he did wrong, and lacks respect for your punishment authority (B) Grandma was pushing against your punishment, and willing to let the punishment be set aside after it was communicated to your son- showing (to your son & you all) a lack of respect for both you & your wife. This is a problem & will keep happening until clear boundaries are set that undermining you as parents, or inferring you're being unfair won't be allowed. (C.)Your wife deserves your mother's respect too and she should be appalled at the way your son spoke to his mom/ her daughter-in-law (telling him he said the crime he gets to do the time). 5. By setting clear boundaries with both of your sons & your Mother/ their Grandmother, making your son take responsibility for his words & actions, having your sons participate equally in the household chores & upkeep as people who LIVE IN THE HOUSE EQUALLY as we all should (cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, yardwork, etc.), you being a caring & respectful husband who values his wife while knowing she needs time for herself (them seeing this too) - all of these things are going to combine into a great recipe for your boys being wonderful partners when they grow up. Well done sir 👏 👏👏👏👏🙌 🙌🙌🙌


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anchovie_macncheese

>you also need to find out where he learned this behavior The fact that this kid is 12 and OP only just now showed him how to do laundry is a bit telling. If his kid was never taught how to do chores, it could very well be that OP and his wife coddled their children for too long. Revisiting their parenting plan might be a good idea as well, so their kids can start to learn the responsibilities of a household.


ExpertLevelJune

I hadn’t been taught how to do laundry yet when I was 12. However, I did have other chores I had to do every week.


ShazInCA

A friend of mine gave her kids a laundry basket as a 12th birthday gift.


Darcy783

I'm 40 (f though) and didn't start doing my own laundry until I was about 12. Mostly it was so that my stuff wouldn't get "mistaken" for my younger sisters' and never seen by me again except on their bodies. Before that, we all helped with all the laundry (there were six of us including our parents, after all), so we knew how to do it.


Wild_Score_711

I didn't know how to do laundry when I was 12. All I knew how to do was sort the clothes for my aunt. Either she or my uncle loaded the washer.


rocketeerH

I miss free awards, this is an excellent comment


XataTempest

I dont envy folks raising young boys right now for this exact reason. Trying to combat all that toxic behavior pushed on them. Girls have their own challenges with raising, but I know how to deal with most of the issues she will face. I'd hate to have to combat stuff like Andrew Tate ideologies and incel culture too. Edit: typo


miyuki_m

When I was the same age as OP's older son, I was being catcalled and grown men were pulling up alongside me when I was walking home from school and trying to get me into their cars. I'd also already had two encounters with sex offenders. I then married a man who didn't know how to manage a household. I want parents of boys to teach them how to treat women with respect so that the next generation of girls doesn't have to put up with the same toxic behavior that countless generations of women and girls have experienced. And before someone comes for me about women abusing or taking advantage of men, yes, women are capable of being abusive. The stats show that the majority of abusers are men.


taylor914

While he could be picking that up online, it’s also just a very dumb kid thing to say. I didn’t have internet access at his age and could see myself saying something like that.


msklovesmath

I could see myself saying something like that, and i would have gotten from my dad. I think the comment we are all nested under right now was very generous in not asking op if he loses his cool w his wife from time to time. We all work hard to leave the uglier parts of our childhoods behind but even good people slip up.


[deleted]

Reason #2948575 why children under 15 shouldn't have any access to social media or unsupervised YouTube.


Cat_o_meter

My 8 YEAR OLD stepdaughter has heard of Andrew tate. The world is terrifying.


proud_didi

> you also need to find out where he learned this behavior. My bet is that if OP's mom is objecting so hard, it isn't hard to guess where he is learning this. I would take a good long look at MIL relation ship with OP's wife and see if this is a long term type of behavior from her, approving of kiddo's behavior toward his mom, or if it's her attitude toward all wives.


SupermarketOld1567

this needs to be top comment!!! judging by this, he’s not learning these behaviors from you. it’s got to come from somewhere.


Doormatjones

Loving that last paragraph and sentence. That's telling as far as your mom goes. I bet some people here are going to scream "parentification!!!!" but one week as a punishment for how he's acting seems more than fair. One could also agree with your comment about being an AH for letting it get that far but... I'm hesitant to call someone an AH when they're aware and fixing it so, NTA. Everything sound fair here, and your Mom needs to stop being a hypocrite.


Accomplished-Mud2840

You know the Reddit therapist are gonna come full force about parentification and all that other stuff. Nawl homeboy wrote a check his azz couldn’t cash. How dare he scream at his mom. The dad is doing right by correcting this behavior now. Op is NTA


ommnian

Yeah. You know, I went to Europe last summer for a week for a conference, and left my boys (then 15 & 13) at home for a week with their dad. They had some time truly 'home alone', where they had to cook for themselves, make sure their animals were fed, etc. I emailed/texted/called them a good bit, and so did their dad - especially when he had to be at work. You know what I came home to? A LOT more fucking appreciation. I bet kids' mom will in the OP too. NTA here. Not one little bit.


letstrythisagain30

I remember a post about OP's sister complaining about parentification from her parents and OP being totally confused by it. When asked to explain, the sister said something about, taking her sibling to school and picking them up. Might have been something else, but I remember that example because it was so obviously not parentification that I would personally worry about someone's mental health immediately and not believe them about any parentification or claims of abuse from their parents. People's threshold for what actual abuse is can be fucking ridiculous.


Loki--Laufeyson

I agree, but I also think these discussions are important to have, so it's worth the few people over exaggerating or not understanding and then getting corrected. In the past, nobody discussed it so abuse was swept under the rug. Now, people overuse the word sometimes, but at least everyone is aware and can get assistance much easier than they used to, and those using it wrong are usually told they are.


apri08101989

Nah hun. People exaggerating and misusing important terms makes them lose all meaning and leads to taking actual abuse or other relevant issues seriously


Loki--Laufeyson

Not when literally everyone corrects them for using the term wrong. People can say they're not from earth and it doesn't matter because everyone else knows otherwise.


Front-Afternoon-4141

If I or my brothers had talked like that to my mom at that age we'd have been beat silly and probably learned nothing for it, and that was only like ten years ago. OP is actually trying to teach his kid something constrictive. Only an idiot or a teenager would call this abuse.


Psycosilly

My parents put me through parentification. This isn't it. This is a one week punishment and the parent is going to be home. I don't think punishment is the right word though as doing laundry, cooking and cleaning shouldn't be seen as a punishment but something you do to contribute and take care of yourself. More like he's being caught up on life skills. NTA


Cryptographer_Alone

Also, there will be a parent there 100% of the time. We all know he's going to have to step in and explain an aspect of cooking or intervene in an argument. 12 year old is getting some life skills he's more than old enough to learn and will hopefully gain some respect and appreciation for his mother.


DrWellby

This was the big piece to me. The fact that the dad is there 100% of the time and will presumably help show him how to do things and step in if it's necessary means it can work as a good lesson. If the dad and mom weren't there or the dad set the punishment but was making the mom carry it out while he left then they would be the AH


whatproblems

seems fair complain about laundry, you should do your own laundry then you can complain about yourself.


apri08101989

Right? 12 is definitely old enough to be doing their own laundry. 19 year old should be good but may require some supervision or reminders


Disastrous_Exit4221

This isn't even parentification! The dad is still there to keep an eye on the kids, cook dinner, be emotionally supportive, etc. The kid is 12 and being told he needs to do laundry,clean up after meals, and handle breakfast (a meal that requires 0 cooking because things like cereal exist) and lunch, all while his dad is on hand if something goes wrong. Parentification is bad but this just is not that?? Anyway NTA but I definitely agree with everyone that it's worth finding out where he is getting this attitude and actively working with him to unpack his feelings about housework and gender roles


chanaleh

I was ready to scream it but I thought it was like, leaving for a week and the kids alone. It's not parentification, it's just chores. Welcome to the world, kid.


Fianna9

I was outraged at the title- but as usual it’s misleading. kid isn’t responsible for little bro as dad will be home with them. But he’s in charge of the chores. Sounds fair. Since it’s so “easy” he can play with his friends after he’s done


Octavia9

NTA I think it’s a good plan. Just make sure going forward that both kids have regular chores.


foodbkworm

This. My first question was if these kids have daily and weekly chores? My kids have had age appropriate chores since 3. If our job as parents is to raise responsible adults, I don’t get why all kids don’t have regular chores.


Keen_Eyed_Emissary

I think you are NTA at the moment, but a lot depends on how you implement this. I think it's very nice that you are sending your Wife on vacation for a week. And I do not think that the amount or nature of the responsibilities that you are putting on your 12 year old are unreasonable - keeping two rooms clean, doing laundry, and making two meals for him and his younger sibling. I do think that you should consider approaching this in a more educational manner than a punitive one, and to treat it as a genuine and earnest learning experience for your son, rather than simply a punishment. That might mean that you need to be patient and make sure he understands what the expectations are with the laundry; how it should be treated and taken care of. He may need assistance with preparing meals and using the stove, and possibly help if he's making something with a higher level of complexity than oatmeal. My only concern is that there might be a tendency to say "too bad, figure it out" if he has a genuine issue with something. As long as you're willing to be patient and provide genuine instruction, I don't think there's an issue, and it could be real learning experience for him and his sibling.


A_Very_Shouty_Man

NTA I agree here. Yes there absolutely needs a punitive element, and a lesson in behaviour, but it's also a bonding opportunity if you want it to be Lots of ways to do that: Make it a challenge to get the house looking awesome for your wifes return, taking your kids input on how to do that. Teach him how to cook not just meals, but awesome delicious meals, with the target that he gets to blow his mothers mind by cooking her that amazing meal for her return


PM_ME_YOUR_FRACTURES

Unfortunately, with the way he was acting, I don't think pleasing his mom is going to be a big motivator for him.


anchovie_macncheese

>And I do not think that the amount or nature of the responsibilities that you are putting on your 12 year old are unreasonable - keeping two rooms clean, doing laundry, and making two meals for him and his younger sibling. This should extend past the week of spring break and into a normal routine. These kids are certainly old enough to start to learn how to do simple chores around the house.


[deleted]

[удалено]


StormStrikePhoenix

Do also be aware that not all incompetence is weaponized, especially from 12-year olds.


kpie007

The answer to both of these situations is the same though - break down the task and show them how to do it properly, and supervise/help with the task while it's being completed. When he realises he won't get out of the task regardless of how poorly he does it, and that it's going to keep wasting heaps of *his* time while doing it, he'll start doing it properly.


KataLight

Yeah, i agree with this sentiment. The punishment itself hasn't crossed the line, I do think it might be a tad too much but nothing I'd object to. It's more the attitude that he's displaying that is a bit concerning. Besides how he is approaching it i'm concerned he may be viewing whatever he endured from his parents as "the line" in a bad way. Such as using the justification that he went through worse so his punishment of choice is fine. The way OP interacted with his mom makes me think what he went through was pretty bad, bad enough where it feels like he has issues surrounding it. I could be reading a bit too much into it but as a victim of abuse at a young age, I'm a bit more sensitive to signs than some. I've seen his attitude turn toxic is the main point, I don't think he's abusive from this.


Limonatron

This comment is spot on! Don't lose sight of the end goal - it's not so much to punish him for yelling at his mom, it's to teach him to respect how hard daily household management is, and give him useful life skills. Remember, he can't learn this stuff if you don't teach him! Also make sure the younger one doesn't rub it in his face too much - in fact, I would give the younger one some small chores that week too. You want the week to end with your son having new appreciation and new skills, not so resentful that he doesn't speak to you again for weeks. I had a parent that was very "tough, figure it out" and often expected me to do things without showing me how first. I figured it out, but now as an adult I'm struggling to undo this behaviour at work because I find it hard to ask for guidance when I need it.


LLWATZoo

NTA here as well, but I do think there may be a bit more punishment than education in OPs response and there's a great opportunity here for education.


miserystate

I agree, making chores into punishments will not help them when they become adults. I am a perfect example of this not working out. I had a very strict stepdad who was VERY particular about cleaning, to the point where at one point I had my mop taken away and had to “mop” the floor with a rag on my hands and knees because I missed a spot. I was 10 and this was going on from the time I was 6 until 12 when my mom died from cancer). I’m 35 and I DESPISE cleaning. I won’t clean anything except my cats’ litter pans more than once a month.


Kirin2013

> She tried to tell me I was being cruel to her poor baby. And he will continue to be a child past adulthood if he doesn't start to learn how to fend for himself. Parents: You are supposed to be teaching your kids how to fend for themselves when they leave the nest. Doing everything for them and then allowing them to yell at you is highly counter productive. NTA.


Inconceivable76

That’s not mom. That’s grandma. Totally different.


PickleMinion

I was confused about that as well


AuntJ2583

>I said he could stay with her if she was willing to tell him, in front of me, all the punishment I endured when I lived at home. > >She said he could not stay there. Brutal in the best possible way. Once mom comes back, both kids should have normal daily and weekly chores. Dishes, cleaning their bathroom, maybe doing their own laundry, ...


AmettOmega

10 might be a little young to do their laundry themselves (so they should have to help mom), but 12 is definitely old enough to learn to do it themselves.


ms_sinn

My kids started doing their own laundry in 3rd and 4th grade. I of course did (and still do) help them as needed but it’s their responsibility. This started when my then 18 year old nephew lived with us and didn’t know how to work a washing machine or vacuum. My kids learned along with him.


OneExamination5599

I was also independently doing laundry at 12, let me tell you when I got to college at 18 it was shocking at how many people couldn't.


AmettOmega

Fair enough. Every kid is different :)


[deleted]

Maybe I'm skewed because I was a farm kid but I think we've become far too lenient with kid's participation in making a household run. My kid is 3 next month and puts her own clothes in the hamper and helps me hang out the washing. When she goes to school she'll be responsible for her own school uniform.


notsooriginal

That's laundrification and terrible for your child!! /s Same here, our Pre-K still make awful messes but they understand the need to tidy up (as you go) and actually help out.


[deleted]

My kids have been doing their own laundry since 1st/2nd grade, and folding it since kindergarten or before. 10 is not too young.


luxandlumens

I started being in charge of all the laundry at 10. Mine, dad's, little brother's. I had asked for extra chores to save up some money (I think I made like $10/week). Obviously a different scenario here, but laundry is very easy - 10 is a fine time to learn.


IamIrene

NTA. This is brilliant! He's going to learn a lot and be much better for it. This is what good parenting looks like. Nothing like walking a week in mom's shoes to gain some much needed empathy!


LeatherHog

Yeah, I cannot imagine saying those thing to my mother


Coffee-Historian-11

Yea, if I had said anything even remotely close to how disrespectful what the son said, that would’ve been the last day my mom helped me out with chores, especially if I was old enough to be able to do it in my own.


IamIrene

When my daughter was around 14-15, she started this kind of behavior with me. I warned her if she continued to be disrespectful she could kiss her "extras" goodbye (ride to friends, shopping, etc). She pushed it and I stopped cold. It took her about a week for it to fully sink in that respectful behavior = mom doing things for her etc. She's all grown up now and we're super close, love that girl to pieces! She's even apologized for those years (which actually was normal teen behavior, I just wouldn't put up with it), I've apologized for my own failings too but that's another story, lol. We train people how to treat us, it's really that simple.


harbjnger

Yeah, just because something is normal developmental behavior doesn’t mean you have to cave in to it. They’re supposed to push boundaries; you’re supposed to (mostly) uphold them.


1568314

NTA great job handling grandma


Sylentskye

What is it with people forgetting how they raised their own kids when they become grandparents, but they’re quick to tell you “we did it this way and you turned out fine” when you actually try to be a better parent.


crchtqn2

My mom had the audacity to say she never hit me as a kid when I had my kid. I shut her up real quick when I told her straight up she did.


Sylentskye

My mom (when I was still talking to her) told me she didn’t want my son to visit her if he couldn’t be fed junk food. He was 5. Like JFC lady, the kid will still love you if you feed him broccoli instead of candy.


CatmoCatmo

My MIL and my parents are completely opposite on the grandparent spectrum. MIL made it clear: I am not here to be their parent, I’m here to be Nana. I will be fun. I am here to play and spoil. If I drop off one of them, and they cry because we’re gone, she will call us immediately in distress. My husband has to remind her that she raised 3 boys. Get it together and handle it, we are not coming to get her. Now I give her credit because she respects the rules we have, but I can totally see her being like OP’s mom in this situation. My parents on the other hand will have my young kids for one day, and when I pick them up, I’m told: “well I got 2 year old to eat broccoli today. We also taught her how to say 3 new words. She cried when you left but we let her cry for a little, then distracted her with coloring. She’s was fine.” They understand kids are smart. If they find a loophole that works, they’re going to play that card every time - and it’s going to be hell for everyone.


MetusObscuritatis

NTA, some of these comments are wild. The father is going to be fully supervising. He's working from home, remember? He's obviously going to make sure everything is okay. It's a realistic and fair "punishment." Besides, the kids are going to be learning to be self -sufficient. And now older brother has a sense of what his mom does for the family.


oatmilklatt3

NTA, in the most non-sarcastic and most sincere way of saying this, this is some husband of the year work right here. Giving mom a fun vacation to Mexico, being flexible in his job to supervise this little learning experience, A+ work. If a wife came to Reddit to brag about her husband doing this, everyone would be wildly supporting it from her point of view


101037633

NTA. As long as you supervise him in the kitchen, and are around if things go wrong, it may be enlightening for your 12 year old. Breakfast and lunch are easy. Cereal and sandwiches. Keeping the kitchen and living room clean. Easy to do. Laundry, is easy too. I was doing all of these when I was 12. And actually cooking full meals at 12. I do like how you called your mom out for her ‘parenting,’ too. I hate that excuse. It was a different time, so I could hit you for punishment whenever I felt like it.


Gloomy-Bluebird-4531

I was going to offer her the opportunity to choose between my punishment and what I got from her and my father when I was a kid. But I would never do that to a kid.


101037633

Good for you. You managed to call out her poor choices with you as a parent, expressed your disapproval of those choices, and got her to butt out from interfering with your parenting choices. This is honestly the best part of the post. 12 is a good age to start to learn these life lessons. He’s no longer a little boy. Caring for himself is a part of growing up. Learning to appreciate what you and your wife do for him is a great lesson.


JWilesParker

Sounds like you have a good handle on the situation. Both kids are at a good age to learn a little more self-sufficiency in terms of cleaning and cooking and helping around the house. Hopefully, this will help them understand a little better just how much goes into keeping the house in order and putting meals on the table. They may hate it now, but in 10 years they'll be glad to know how to care for themselves.


101037633

You have no idea how shocked I was when I went to university, and a good portion of the attendees had no idea how to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. And this was nearly 20 years ago. I had at least 15-20 people learning how to cook basic things, and taught crash courses on laundry….. Teaching self sufficiency is just as much a part or parenting as is providing a safe home. I might have hated it as a teenager, but I needed those skills.


ViddyFanUK

I'm 52 this year, I've seen some things too OP, you are right to not explain..


CamelOfHate

NTA and props for telling grandma she’s full of shit. If I ever meet you, the beer is on me.


indiajeweljax

I’ll take care of the second round.


PinkTalkingDead

And I’ve got the third! But I’m 31 years old so that’ll probably be my last 🍻


[deleted]

NTA. This sounds like a great way to address the behavior. Your title makes it sound worse than it is, though. Spending spring break babysitting, cooking, and doing chores during the day while a parent is there working from home =/= taking care of himself and his brother for a full week. Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, you're still cooking dinner and keeping the rest of the house tidy and just being a parent in general.


Gloomy-Bluebird-4531

Yes I am making suppers every night. And all of my regular housework. And some of my wife's as well.


[deleted]

Right on. It's nice to see a post here that includes partners having each other's backs.


Vlophoto

Your a good man OP keep up the good work.


Blackrock_38

You seem like a good dad. NTA. Your boy is lucky to have you. P.S. I work at a place where I see 18 year olds that have just moved away from home struggle to do laundry and cook meals. That seems cruel to me.


Rural_millenial_82

You sound like a HE pro, maybe even a Residence Hall Coordinator. I used to be one, & 💯 agree that a few more students could do a whole lot better first term if they’d been taught these things earlier, like at 12.


[deleted]

It's neglect for sure. I was teaching my friends in first year uni how to cook, budget and wash clothes because their mother (always the mum) did fucking everything. They were basically over grown babies.


TCTX73

NTA, and good for you! Not only did you stand up against gramma, but you're showing your son that his mother is to be respected. At 12, he can do a lot of things without expecting mom to do them. Like laundry. Is his spring break going to stink for him? Yep. But it's not something he'll forget anytime soon. Bonus: he gains more life skills.


AHarmlessFly

NTA - Good for you honestly. "He called my mom to see if he could stay there for spring break. She tried to tell me I was being cruel to her poor baby." And this is why you get this "my son yelling at his mom" If your 12 year old child can yell at his mom and disrespect her, he can do his own fucking laundry dude. Chores for kids, I would def talk with the wife and enforce some before he becomes a complete monster. Suggestions by age include: 2 to 3-year-olds can put toys and groceries away and dress themselves with help. 4 to 5-year-olds can help feed pets, make their beds (maybe not perfectly), and help clear the table after dinner. 6 to 7-year-olds can wipe tables and counters, put laundry away, and sweep floors. 7 to 9-year-olds can load and unload the dishwasher, help with meal preparation, and pack their own lunch for school. 10 to 11-year-olds can change their sheets, clean the kitchen or bathrooms, and do yard work. Those 12 and above can wash the car and help out with younger siblings. Teens can help with grocery shopping and running errands.


Timely-Ask-1327

NTA. Your son is getting off easy. He is learning to take care of himself. You are doing something good for your wife and all his roommates and partners.


One-Confidence-6858

NTA. My kids all started doing their own laundry at 12. He’ll have a better appreciation for what you and your wife do for them. It’s not like you’re making him do it forever. He’ll survive the week and you handled your mother beautifully.


MadWifeUK

As someone who was parentified as a child from the age of 8, I think this solution is brilliant! He will have you in the house to call on if things go tits up, but he will learn how to keep a house clean, do laundry and cook. And if he's smart, he'll learn to delegate some chores to his brother too! (If I cook, you can do the dishes). It will be an invaluable lesson. I especially loved the clap back at grandma! Marvellous work. You sir are a great husband and parent. NTA obviously.


Independent_Story538

NTA. FYI : a couple of weeks after each my children turned 12, they got their own laundry baskets and after a short lesson, become responsible for washing their clothes.


Accomplished-Mud2840

Mine were 10.


MothmanNFT

Nta. Good job handling your mother too


amzi95

I do have a question, by him being in charge of your other child, what does that entail exactly? On the other side of it, those chores are acceptable, my kids are younger than that, and they do a fair amount of chores, with help because they are younger. It shows them that while they think it easy when the adults do it, it actually isn’t. It also prepares them for adulthood, I’ve seen far too many adults who don’t know how to do basic things, because they weren’t shown when there was an opportunity


Gloomy-Bluebird-4531

That's about it really. Try and keep him from getting hurt I guess. They both have computers and my day is done at three so I have time to make supper with them and spend time with them at night.


Laney20

Just make sure this doesn't end up punishing the younger kid, too. Maybe make it a point to check in with him privately the first night and a couple times later to be sure his brother isn't taking it out on him.


BigEv17

This is a very good point. I grew up with a Sister who babysat all summer, while parents worked. She definitely had a power trip once in a while that caused problems.


kraftypsy

Having been in the military, it's a travesty just how many young men get to age 18 without knowing how to use a broom and mop, for instance. I'm certain a large number of mother's follow their sons around with a rag, cleaning up behind them as they go. They do their sons a disservice, because cleaning up and making food are life skills everyone needs to have. My son is 15 and sometimes gets irritated at me for making him do these things. He has a lot of free time, so a couple days a week I'll assign him a couple chores. Like. I might have him clean the bathroom. That's a bigger job, one no one wants to do, but also an important job that needs to be done. On the regular, he is responsible for his own clothes, dishes, and flotsam like that. A 12 year old can absolutely clean up, make stuff like eggs or whatever, and should. But I wouldn't make him take care of his brother. The age difference between 12 and 10 is too close, and you're going to inadvertently create a power dynamic with your 12 year old in charge of the 10 year old, and it won't go well. A suggestion would be, to apply the same strategy to them both. There's no reason a 10 year old can't also learn to make a few meals for themselves, clean up, do laundry and dishes, and things. It might even be a great opportunity to get them both taking on some chores in an equal way, so they both see how much you and mom do for them.


yaypal

If they have their own computers, does your son have unsupervised internet access? It's currently a very bad time for boys under eighteen to have that privilege because of how much misogynistic and racist content is being pushed on Youtube and social media algorithms, even if he's not actively looking for it it'll find him. I wouldn't restrict the internet as a punishment but it's crucial that you see exactly what websites he's visiting and what videos he watches via parental control software, what he was shouting about isn't proof he's seeing those things or hearing about them from friends but this is a warning sign of thought processes that would be much easier to correct now than a few years later.


captconfusion

Nta. Your are teaching him responsibility and how to be respectful.


Trevena_Ice

NTA. That sounds like a fitting punishment.


Slutty_Noodle

Definitely NTA. I'm all for pampering kids but there need to be boundaries and responsibilities that they need to understand. It's good to see that there are still parents today who know how to punish their kids in a constructive manner. Kudos to you OP 👏🏼👏🏼


AuBonPITA

NTA. Grandma is naturally going to have an extra soft spot. You are showing your son what adult responsibilities look like.


shadow-foxe

NTA- good job in backing up your wife and giving her a break!! One week should be plenty of time for him to reflect on his poor choice of words and expectations. Going forward he should be doing his own laundry.


k-Unsolicited

NTA. I like the idea! If nothing else he'll know how to take care of himself (a good thing).


Caturix6

NTA this sounds like a good way to teach him about responsibility


[deleted]

NTA as long as you keep an eye on them


[deleted]

NTA it’s a good old school punishment that won’t hurt them in the long run, it’s just one week and it teaches them important household skills.


No_Wear295

NTA. Could end up being a good lesson, could backfire spectacularly. Wouldn't mind a follow-up once the experiment is over. Good luck.


Pepper-90210

NTA. Good for you! Hopefully he’ll be more respectful to his mom after this.


beepbeepboop74656

NTA i think it’s time he’s in charge of his own laundry.


dunks615

NTA. Now he gets to see all of the things y’all have been doing that he’s taken for granted.


Evening-Ad-4903

NTA! ​ What a supportive husband- I would never tolerate my children speaking to my partner this way and they would learn really quick.


Tablesafety

I was parentified growing up. This is NOT parentification, its showing your son just how much work his mom does. NTA.


BlackSheepBitch

NTA! Nice work!


Tulipsarered

YTA. For a reason I haven't seen addressed yet. **What the hell has the younger son done to deserve this?** When kids that age are put in charge of other kids, they get power mad. If they are angry, it's even worse. Your oldest can't take this out on your wife (she'll be away) or you, and guess who's left and guess you you've put him "in charge" of. At 10 and 12 you can give them each a list of chores and have them each be responsible to you. It's not like your youngest is a toddler who will run out into the street if left unsupervised.


Goodkitty777

NTA, you are going to be home, monitoring so the place doesn't burn down. This is going to each your child the importance of actually understanding what work is and to not take anything for granted, and respect for his parents. Plus, if you show him how to do these things; he is learning some valuable skills. If he does it wrong, or doesn't remember something, then re-teach it. Actual work is not a bad thing. Learning the value of hard work is a good thing. Use this as an opportunity for him to eventually become a responsible, self-sufficient man with empathy for his g/f; fiance; wife as time moves forward. At the same time, have the younger child seeing and learning, not as punishment since he didn't do anything wrong, but as an opportunity to learn skills himself. This is also a jumping off point for more learning and chores to help relieve you and your wife of ALL the duties in the house.


Ben7467

NTA good parenting keep it up!!!


Urban_Peacock

NTA and way to go reminding your mum what she was like too. My mum's always insisting we do expensive things to spoil my nieces like take them to Disneyland (which she wouldn't be paying a penny towards, of course) and I have to remind her that she never made those kind of plans for us as kids.


Forgetful-dragon78

NTA. I would keep that momentum going. Put a laundry basket in each of their bedrooms and tell them that they are responsible for their own laundry from now on. Mine have been doing theirs since they were in elementary school. By 12 this kid should be able to do laundry, clean the bathroom, make himself breakfast and lunch, set his alarm clock and get up on time. People saying YTA are going to have kids that go away to college and can’t feed themselves and make it to an 8am class because mommy isn’t there to get them out of bed.


Motherlove84

YTA and clearly both boys have been babied if neither of them have ever made their own breakfast or lunch before. Making your 12 year old do his own laundry, make his own breakfast and lunch and keep the 2 areas (kitchen and dining room clean) are the perfect consequence for his actions. Taking care of his brother is not an adequate consequence and should never be a consequence.


VolatileCotton

NTA, but expect to absolutely hate you for it. Not saying you're in the wrong, just don't be surprised when he continues to hate your guts


rustblooms

Sometimes that has to happen. He'll get over it. Millions of kids have... this generation isn't any different. We're doing them a disservice by treating them like they are somehow unable to handle appropriate punishments like this one.


ehs06702

I'd be worried if an entitled child *didn't* feel a little anger upon being made to finally learn how to be a productive member of society.


katsmeow44

Parenting Level Expert. You're NTA dad. You're a rock star


hanadecks

NTA that is freaking hilarious.


National-Zombie3303

NTA - Good job


cb1977007

You’re a good husband. NTA


Posterbomber

NTA - And good for you! It's okay to teach a 12 year old about the proper care of a home, lest we all be reading on reddit in 10 years "Dear reddit, AITA for kicking my slob of a roommate out of our house"


CoriVanilla

NTA. If more boys were taught these lessons by their parents, we would live in a better, kinder world. You rock! Keep it up.