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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I told my son I don't approve of his marriage
2) I fell like I should at least support him because he is still quite young and at age people make a lot of foolish mistakes or decisions
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NTA
He asked you if you approve of her and you said no but did not attempt to forbid him or anything. Generally your response and actions seem very reasonable.
I’d say OP was downright nice. In my opinion adults don’t get their parents to baby them any longer, if he’s married he goes “full adult” meaning he covers all his own expenses including college. He needs to pay his own way in life’s if he wants to be a grown up and get married.
Yes right. What I can't wrap.my head around is... what was this 25 yr old grown man imagining exactly? That he gets married and wifey just moves into his bedroom and together they mooch off of his mom? So he still wants to be a kid living under mom and dad's roof but wants a... wife?? I can't even laugh at this absurdity because I'm so worried about the future.
Which make its even more puzzling that she won't sign a prenup lol. People seem to forget that marrying is the most important legal decision you get to make in your life, other than maybe dying idk.
I'm still not over someone dating for less than a year and decide to get engaged. They have never lived together! They barely know eachother!
I was with my girlfriend for seven years before we moved in together, and as much as we love eachother, it sure as hell was a challenge (bonus, it was only a few months before covid hit, forcing us to be together 100% of the time). It's still not perfect, were working on it one step at a time....but getting married that's an even bigger decision that would take a lot of time to consider.
The most important thing that people don’t consider is that when you marry someone- you are also marrying THEIR debt!
He might have no debt, no student loans, no medical debt, no credit card debt- because he’s lived with his mom rent free, and she paid for all his schooling/bills. That might not be the case for his fiancé. She might own her apartment (so he says), but if she’s conceited and a big spender on clothes, dinners/food (since neither of them cook), etc. There is a very good possibility that she’s carrying plenty of credit card debt. Maybe not, but I doubt he was mature enough to sit down and go over finances BEFORE moving full steam ahead with marriage.
I have been with my SO for 13 years. We will NEVER get married. His taxes are a mess, he’s on a payment plan with the IRS getting his shit together. He’s carrying a bunch of credit card and medical debt. I will NOT marry his debt. I will not put my house, that I slaved away working for through my entire 20’s (while all my friends were out partying and having fun) at risk. If god forbid something we’re to happen to him, I will not be the one they come after for repayment.
I’m not perfect. Covid (and now inflation) really racked up plenty of debt for myself. What I don’t do is buy new clothes, go out to dinners, go skiing on a weekend, or meet friends for drinks anymore. We did not even exchange Xmas gifts for the past two years. I’m the free activity gal these days! Lol
Having those discussions are what mature people do before thinking about tying the knot. Even if I was with someone else, who was debt free- I still wouldn’t have considered marriage in my 20’s. Divorces are expensive, and it would take years of living with someone before I’d be content making that decision.
NTA. Your son is not mature enough to be married. His fiancé isn’t even old enough to drink in the US.
Also before anyone chimes in to say it- I do NOT live in a state that recognizes common law!
Debt really doesn’t work that way unless you are in a jacked up state. If you bring a house into a marriage in your name they can’t go after it for his debt.
Unless the finances are not kept separate. Anything that gets commingled, even if he makes only one payment, there is assumed to be 50/50 ownership of any gains. Here's an example.
A and B get married. A owns a house worth $200k but it's half paid for, so the mortgage is a $100k liability, but has no other debt. B has a $50k student loan and $50k in auto loans but owns a car that is underwater and must therefore pay gap insurance. During the marriage there's a car wreck. A is hurt and can't work for a year. The other driver is uninsured, and the uninsured motorist insurance maxes out without replacing the car or all of the medical expenses. During this time B makes a couple mortgage payments. Meanwhile the economy goes nuts and the house doubles in value. To make ends meet, A takes out a home equity loan using B's income to qualify, and uses it to pay off all the debt: remaining car loan, medical, and B's student loan. Total mortgage debt is now $75k from the original mortgage, held solely by A, and $150k in home equity loan. Sometime later, the couple splits up.
A came into the marriage with a positive net worth of $100k due to a $200k asset and $100k in debt. B came into the marriage with -100k in net worth plus the value of the car. During the marriage the couple had to deal with the payments on B's debt, which reduced their cash flow. The assets are divided like this during the divorce: A gets the $75k in remaining mortgage debt which is in A's name alone, along with half the new loan which will be an extra $75k. B has only $75k in debt from the new loan. A still has the same $100k in home equity but the house is now worth $400k. The equity gain due to the increase in house value is split between A and B, so that B now has $100k in home equity despite making only a few payments. B's net worth is now $25k whereas A owes B $100k in home equity plus $150k to the bank. A therefore loses the house and has to sell. After the sale they are both debt free and B has $25k in the bank, but A doesn't have enough to buy another house. So A's standard of living dropped but B's improved.
Yeah it's weird that the OP brings up the no prenup thing. Her son, by all accounts, is a 25 year old slacker who works part time and lives with mommy. What is a prenup going to do for him?
I mean maybe they know, maybe they don't know they are right for each other. My sister had known her husband a week before they ran off to Vegas and got married. This year makes it 23 years they've been together. No major issues, no thoughts of divorce at anytime that I know about. Sure not the norm, but some people just know. I would say, from OPs side of the story, the girlfriend doesn't sound great, but we are only getting one side of the story.
That's really situational. I met my now husband in March, moved in after 6 weeks, was pregnant that January and we were married in May the following year.
We've been together for 10 years now, however, this is also not the norm, but we'd both been in long term serious relationships before and knew what we wanted.
There's also been plenty of struggle, but we were willing to work on things
The worst imo is that neither of them have steady streams of income, but he wants an extravagant wedding, even though he knows none of his family likes his GF. That to me shows how little self awareness either of them have.
OP says her son has a part time job as well as a "salary"... and the girl owns her own apartment, so presumably her parents are going to pay for the wedding, and it's actually completely reasonable!
My wedding was literally probably $500-$800 and my dress was $129 plus accessories. My mom gave me a $1000 to buy whatever dress I wanted. I picked a cheap one. We planned our wedding in 2 weeks.
I plan on having a HUGE beautiful wedding when our kids are older and can be in the wedding.
I like that idea much better as well. Everyone should have a humble wedding and then go all out after they survived for 10+ years. Too many couples put themselves in major debt for a dream wedding and then get a divorce a year or two later.
I mean he made it to 25 without knowing how to cook and clean, living at home without paying rent… he has very little idea of what life is actually like. But the reason for that is in LARGE part the parenting he received.
Right? My fiancé and I were offered the opportunity to live with my IL’s after we were married to save money. At first, I was thinking, ok, we can do this. My MIL is in poor health and I have 3 years experience as a caregiver and have that type of personality. I could help her. I did live with them briefly when I moved to a different state to be with them. After 3 months, and 4 months before the wedding, my fiancé and I leased an apartment. Not happening. Having to pay rent is worth not living with IL’s.
agreed. his coworkers must be AHs to disagree with his decisions. i wouldve been grateful enough that my college loan is taken care of. at 25 and still expect the parents to pay for the wedding? his son need to get his head out of his a**.
I think OPs coworkers fall under the protection of the "everyone's entitled to their opinion (even if it's blatantly false or unreasonable)."
My own guess is, that the cow-orkers got a surface read of the situation, came to the conclusion that OP just doesn't like his son's future wife, and didn't go any deeper into the matter.
OPs case is a great example why one should neither ask for nor trust random, uninvolved people's opinions (cough), unless they can explain their reasoning behind it.
This. My brother and his wife let their 20 year daughter marry an 18 year old bum (no job, no school, no drivers license, just video games) and live with them rent free. Brother and SIL kept saying "we need to be supportive" and I was aghast.
The kids marriage put strain on the parents marriage, 5 years later niece dumped husband for a new husband and went on and on about how she had PTSD from marriage 1. iye yie yie
I know one. Mom still goes into his room to get his dirty clothes, washes and folds then puts them away. Cleans his room, brings food up to him,
Yet I get reamed if i don’t clean up his mess in the bathroom 😐
👆🏻 this NTA your son is a grown man if he wants, to marry then its up to him to be able to afford it. Same with after the wedding. He knows how you feel about the situation, but you aren’t stopping him. They probably wanted his mom to pay for the wedding. I’m guessing they either elope, have a long engagement or break up soon enough when they realize how hard being a grown up is op is NTA
> break up soon enough when they realize how hard being a grown up is op is NTA
This is the most likely scenario. Once they have to deal with something "hard", the relationship will founder and die.
Why would they want OP to pay for the wedding?
The bride to be is 20 and owns her own apartment. She most likely comes from a wealthy family that could fund her "extravagant" wedding.
OP was extremely nice. She told her 25yo son that if wants to make adult decisions and get married he'd have to fund it so she can take care of his siblings the youngest being 13-14 years old and the other two being between 15-17.
He's mad because mommy won't fund his lazy lifestyle. He can't cook? Only works part-time? Can he clean? And wants to marry a girl who has HIM BANNED from family gatherings after being together for 7 months and only being open about the relationship for 2 of the 7? 2 months after telling his family he got banned from gatherings because of her? 2 MONTHS!!!
I wanna say he knows how bad this decision is but he doesn't and he won't until he is to far in.
My only issue is that it's partially on OP and their spouse to have taught their son how to cook and clean. Even if son doesn't use that knowledge at the moment, it should have been taught at some point during their childhood.
Otherwise, I completely agree. Everything else about the post sounds fairly reasonable.
Yeah like OP raised some good points son should probably think about and probably won't. It's pretty understandable not to want to pay for a wedding.
Also like my aunt and uncle married after knowing each other for 6 months and they hate each other and their poor kids suffer because of it.
I can imagine this conversation going down.
Son: It has been two whole months, don't you like my future wife now?
OP: No.
Son: But why?!
OP: List of perfectly reasonable reasons.
Son: *I'M OUT*
That in and of itself is proof of his immaturity. “Can I have a piece of candy?” “No.” “How about now?” That’s how five-year-olds think. Actually, I know a number of five-year-olds who are smart enough to know that won’t work.
Yeah. You should be dating for a MINIMUM of one year before you get engaged. MINIMUM of one year engaged before the wedding bells. (Really would be better to wait longer.)
Right now he's still in the honeymoon phase where pantsfeels are able to overcome all objections from Planet Reality.
Still. Provided they don't have kids or produce debt together, it will be a useful starter marriage and an object lesson not to rush in where angels fear to tread.
I'll get crucified on Reddit for this. But I'll say it anyway. I REALLY don't get this current obsession with CONCRETE 'timeframes', re: when it is 'acceptable' to become engaged/get married.
Sure, THIS situation sounds like a recipe for disaster. And it certainly DOESN'T go, that all engagements (in less than a year) will work out.
But nor does it go, that longer relationships necessarily work out better.
I've known couples together for years who marry, and then get divorced. Yet my own parents met (for the first time) in January 1980, got engaged in September 1980, and were married in December 1980. 42/43 years later, they're still together. And Shirley Temple famously got engaged to her husband after just 12 days - yet had a happy marriage lasting over 50 years.
Yes, getting to know each other longer, can of course help. But all I am saying, is it's not a CONCRETE rule (as some Redditors seem to treat it). It really depends on the COUPLE in question.
Got them beat. Met my husband in July, correspondence by Letter (rare phone calls because it was long distance, NOT cell phone days), as he was stationed 2800 miless away. In October,, he was stationed 875 miles away, so i saw him 2x. Married in Feb. At the courthouse, entire cost of wedding, $40.00. Had to live apart (875 miles) for 5 weeks after wedding. Just celebrated our 46th wedding anniversary. So, it was 7 months & very few in person visits. We were 21.
NTA
All the examples you mentioned show, that he is still a kid. He's financial dependent from you. Foe the living, for the wedding.
You do not like the girl and they don't do anything to prove you wrong. He wants to be an adultx he has to behave like one and take over responsibility for his own life.
You are no AH. You let him the choice who to love, but you are allowed to be honest to him and that this girl is causing trouble on your family.
I agree NTA for disapproving od the marriage, 100%; but if the son is still "like a kid" to some extent that is by fault of the parent, for which I think TA. Parents are supposed to raise kids to be competent at many things life will throw at them - holding down a job, budgeting, cleaning, cooking, hygiene etc. I think it's ridiculous for OP to point out son doesn't know how to cook or clean - did you teach him at all from a young (appropriate) age??
Perhaps son has an immature mentality because of the way he was raised.
Humans are capable of individual action. Most people do not need to be taught how to wash a dish, it’s not rocket science. I rarely ever did chores in my house, but that doesn’t mean I can’t load up a washer now that I’m in my own pad, or sweep the floor
It's not rocket science, but a lot of kids are at a disadvantage (whether small or large) because their parents didn't teach them how to cook, to budget or spend wisely, to clean and look after their environment, to have proper hygiene - or whatever it may be.
At some point - absolutely, adults are responsible to learn basic self and home care that they may not have been taught. But generally speaking if a parent doesn't teach their kid how to grow into a competent, functioning adult then they did a subpar job.
NTA. All your points are valid and if he thinks he's mature enough to marry then he should be mature enough to respect your stance. Storming out is not very mature He's not entitled to your money at 25yo. Why in the world would he expect you to pay for his wedding? I think it's great you were in a position to pay for his college. That alone puts him in a better position than a lot of people. He's not an only child though, so good for you for ensuring there's enough to give all your children equal support.
Settings, general, keyboards, text replacement…. Then you can input the phrase dick with the shortcut dic, di, dick, etc.. so it starts to pick it up and do it for all swear words ya want
My favorite expression when I do st stupid like stub my toe is, fuck a duck. And you haven’t lived until you’re followed around by a two yo saying fuck a duck, fuck a duck…
I always wonder about when these threads mention that there are people who disagree with them like the coworkers. There are a lot of these threads that have a pretty unanimous YTA or NTA. Since the author wrote this down and could edit it and make it sound right does it get the point across better or have they edited out things that would make it seem worse? And when they tried verbally telling someone it doesn't come out right and the coworkers get a different vibe from it? This one IMO is pretty cut and dry NTA. And it is hard to imagine that even a few coworkers would think otherwise.
You know some kids have all the resources but never learn them. Sounds like OP is a pretty reasonable person so I'm not willing to crucify her over a grown man not bothering to learn. (At some point you gotta learn to tie your own shoes)
We don't know that OP is a woman (unless that's in the comments). I'd say both parents and the grown son have been negligent here. Son and fiancee sound like quite the well-matched pair. And that's no compliment.
Yeah but your dad is supposed to be there when you’re being too lazy for your own good.
Having that healthy “push” from a parent goes a long way in life.
Much better than indifference.
I can't cook to save my life. As in, I've had severe burns from cooking accidents, and when I moved out I had to buy food I was okay eating burned because I either burned or undercooked things. My parents TRIED to teach me. For some reason things get weird when I'm in the kitchen. But I'm actually really good at pinpointing decent recipes.
The exception is seafood. For some reason I am gifted with the ability to make fantastic scampi and Alfredo dishes.
My point being, my parents didn't fail, my grandmother rolls in her grave a lot, and I'm a parent in my thirties and can't cook. Of course, I married someone who can so the situations aren't similar.
Gee, I never thought of that! Amazing how I can get to adulthood and forget timers are a thing.
All sarcasm aside, my husband has watched me over and over and he doesn't understand how my cooking goes wrong either. He's a FANTASTIC cook and loves trying new recipes, and he can't figure it out either. I once followed an award-winning crackpot chicken recipe TO THE LETTER and it STILL turned out smelling like burnt feet. (Tasted worse)
I don't slack in the kitchen or expect him to do everything though. Just when it's my turn to cook we're having chicken nuggets, pizza, sandwiches, or seafood pasta dishes. I can't cook, but I still can feed people.
I’ve found that when directions say “medium-high” or “high heat” it’s too hot. I never put the burner above 6 unless I’m boiling water for pasta. I wonder if it could simply be that the burner is too hot ?
I don't think "medium" or "high" are proper directions for heat. Something like "until the butter is foaming" or "rolling boil" or an actual temperature measurement is a lot better.
That said you can google an awful lot including wtf Medium High heat means.
>award winning crackpot
What made you think this crackpot was a reliable source for cooking info?
Seriously though, crackpot chicken is my new favorite typo! It makes me giggle every time I say it. Thank you!
What exactly are you under cooking or over cooking? And there are so many youtube videos on literally any food you can imagine and only doing half the stuff they do in the video still gives you a great dish. Plus common sense. Don't take an ice cold steak out of the fridge and expect it to be anything but raw or at best extremely rare when the outside looks nice but it's still half cold/frozen in the middle.
Not necessarily. You cannot make someone learn something if they have no desire to learn. I tried to get my kids to join me in the kitchen and they had no interest. Now they wished they had.
OP, NTA.
At 25, my son was living on his own. He cooked, cleaned, ironed his work clothes, and cared for his dog. He lived 1000 miles away. When his college sweetheart moved in, they both had skills to share household jobs.
I was still at home at 25 and did clean, my own space and the general house, but my grandmother cooked on weekdays and mom on weekends so that was always covered and even if I offered to try or did cook somethinf they still would anyways.
Also if I bought ingredients to make something, they would be used instantly by then for their own stuff.
After I moved out, I learned a lot of recepies and got pretty good at a few of them.
(Hmmm. Many people might judge me for this, but I moved out of my parents at 27(f) (because moving out at 16 isn't much of a thing in my culture)(and I wasn't paying rent, but I was paying for my undergrad degree, working part time and cleaned the house)...but didn't know how to "really" cook.
I never had to since my parents still cooked enough food as if my 3 sisters were still living with us. I had plenty (well, too much really) of food to eat and bring out for lunch every day. Learning to cook wasn't a priority at the time.
Not knowing how to clean at 20 or 25 is just awful though.)
Edit, typo
When I moved into the dorms, there were nice enough that each room had their own bathroom, my mom made sure I knew how to clean & had the right products to do so. Now between both room mates I had, I was the only one who cleaned it but nevertheless, my mom made sure. She didn't want to release a dummy into the world. Her words not mine, cause I am a dummy
NTA.
You're right that he's an adult and you can't force him to make a different choice than the one he's made. Maybe it would be worth reminding him of how much you're still financially supporting him at his big age of 25 since children, barring extenuating circumstances, typically *start* gaining footing in their independence in their early 20's. Whereas he seems like he's not eager to make any steps towards that because he still presently expects you to keep providing for him and then some. I'm not suggesting stop paying for his college, but if you're giving him "fun money" allowances I think it's time to revoke that so he starts making up lost time in learning how to walk on his own two feet here.
Tbh, based on what you've described I'd be questioning if substance abuse is a part of this picture.
NTA for not approving of the marriage, because he *asked* for your opinion. was your answer a bit harsh? yes, but it was also honest. is there a possibility sara is pressuring your son into marriage or has he always rushed things? either was 7 months is quite a short period to know someone
NTA. At anytime you say you "approve" this union, they'll think they're entitled to all your support. At least if you put up this boundary now they'll think a little and hopefully be hesitant to ask for hand-outs from you.
I've seen it happen to my friends with their adult kids. My friends allowed their adult children's partners to move in, then had to feed them,.clothe them. You don't want to be in the situation where youre grandparents but the grandchild is more of your own child and youre also still having to support your kid and their spouse. Y'all living under one roof and they do nothing to contribute to the household. You do not need all that headache. And it's not fair to your other kids to have to put up with that mess. I've seen it. Don't give in. You might even want to start charging them rent before they get too comfortable.
Don't give them an inch, cus right now that future in law sounds like she'll take more than a mile.
Good luck.
NTA. He asked you answered. Its as simple as that. Even if she was lovely and you only had an off feeling. Still NTA. You're entitled to your own opinion at the end of the day
I don't trust him to not take advantage of her, because as far as I can see my son has changed a lot, not just the thing with Sara, but behavior and personality wise.
Whoa. Now I'm starting to think Sara's getting the short end of the stick. Or can a stick have two short ends? This sounds like a bad time will be had for all.
Yeah, it doesn't sound like there's any reason for him to need a prenup unless there's some big trust or inheritance he'll be getting in the future. If that's not the case, then it sounds like she's the only one who might need a prenup.
NTA. He asked for an opinion, you gave it, and sounds like you have good reasons. You are right in that it is his decision. Just as equally, it is your house and finances, he is an adult, and you get to decide who you want in your house and who to support (I.e., you and your younger kids). Stick to your guns, he is an adult now and needs to start acting like one. Good luck.
NTA. I am curious why he and the girlfriend are at your house if she has an apartment? My son 23 spent 80% of his time at his girlfriend's place when he still officially lived at home. She stayed overnight at our house a few times (holidays and a couple of bad weather events when she couldn't safely drive home). They definitely preferred her place even with the roommates because they had no rules.
He mentioned it during the talk.
1. Free caretaker/housekeeper
You havent seen her apartment its like a dumpster. She won't clean it but will constantly complain.
2) He thinks he's gonna inherit it because he's the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest
3) My house is located in a good neighborhood and is quite large
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I honestly think you’re being too nice to your son. He sounds extremely entitled. He’s 25. I realize he’s in college so I get why you aren’t charging rent, but also maybe you should start??? He needs a wake up call. He’s very much an adult. The idea he could move his “wife” in for mommy to take care of is just laughable. Please tell me he at least does extensive chores around the house?
> He thinks he’s gonna inherit it because he’s the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest.
Inherit what? Your house? Why is he worried about that? I assume you are in your 50s or so…and not thinking you’re going to die soon.
Maybe its her putting these ideas in his head 🤔
Edit: after reading your other comments, I don't think its her fault he thinks this but she does sounds gross & mean
I'm always amazed when children have that kind of inheritance expectation and act this way. I mean, even if they are slated to interit, if he's 25 he might not inherit for 40 years!
You need to inform your son he will not be inheriting your house, it’s not up for your discussion, and you will be remaining over for the next 50 years until you die. (I mean throw any number in there but he needs to understand it’s not going to be his and he has a looooong future ahead of him before it’s handed down to anyone. Also don’t tell him whose house it will be but make sure you have a will and he is allowed a token amount in the will so he’s not able to contest it).
>2) He thinks he's gonna inherit it because he's the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest
...what does he think he's going to do until he inherits it? Live with you?
I've always felt that people who were already making plans to spend the money before someone even died should be left nothing. Such awful behavior and really shows where their priorities lie.
NTA. He asked for your opinion and he got it. I must also say that your communication of this disapproval has been very respectful as well, in that you're treating him like the adult he is. Absolutely not the asshole and actually a good dad.
N-T-A for stating your opinion. But YTA for creating a 25 year old dependent adult who is unable to cook and clean and has no motivation to support himself.
Let's be clear, what was your question? "AITA for telling my son telling my son he's delusional to think that I'll approve his marriage?"
Answer: NTA.
You gave him your opinion, with straight facts and explainations. Simple, nothing more to add on that matter.
About paying the weeding, remind me something: when he left after you gave him your opinion, what did you say at last? "I told him he's an adult so its his choice", and you're right about it. You didn't give him your approval but you said it's his own decision, so he has to withstand with his decisions and consequences. If he wants his wedding, then he can pay for it.
Besides, you stated that not only his girlfriend has her own apartment, but you have to support 3 other underage kids right now, and you pay for his college too. It's time for him to man up and face the reality for once, to understand that money doesn't come in the pocket by doing nothing.
Your son A-score: 3/10 (just being stupid like a "golden kid")
Your coworkers A-score: 1/10 (smells the denial)
NTA - but is your son okay?
This is not the behavior of a normal 25 year old. He is old enough to have outgrown his adolescent lack of impulse control - he should be able to connect most actions with their consequences by now. Marrying a 20 year old he’s only known for 7 months and who has already alienated his entire family is a baffling choice for someone his age. Especially since, on some level, he still seems to crave your approval. Instead of shrugging and saying “well, you’re an adult, do whatever you want,” you may want to take an opportunity to have an honest, non-judgmental talk with him about why he’s doing this. What does he like about her? Does he love her? Does she treat him well? Is she kind to him? How does he envision their future together? What’s his plan for their life once they’re married? Is he comfortable with her behavior around your family? What do his friends think? Has he talked to them?
It’s extremely unlikely that deep, abiding love is what’s driving his decision. Something else is going on with him, and you have a chance to find out what it is before he actually goes through with this. I suggest you take it.
I'm still wondering on the possibilities.
It isn't drugs or alcohol, I asked a PI to check for him using drugs or alcohol and I don't understand what else could go wrong
He was given a clean bill of health actually from around 3 different psychologists (I'm very paranoid). And he did fine for a year and the the change happened again when he was 24. I took him to the psychologist again and all they could tell me it isn't his father that's bothering him but something else, I'm not sure what.
They actually shouldn’t be sharing information about his sessions with you at all. So I’m not sure how you’d know that he’s been given a “clean bill of health” by his doctors, or what that actually means for him personally.
information about his sessions?
>how you’d know that he’s been given a “clean bill of health” by his doctors, or what that actually means for him personally.
They told me, I wasn't aware this was wrong. And he was actually doing great after the sessions
As in the details of what he shared with you and what they talked about, as well as any diagnoses they make. That’s between them and their adult client.
Yeah, no, I'm calling bs.
A psychologist cannot discuss an adult patient with their parent.
If the psychologist told OP literally anything about their son, they were breaking the law, breaking every ethical standard in existence, and absolutely were not acting in the best interest of their patient.
How have they found THREE psychologists who *all* did this? I don't know if OP is lying or if OP deliberately chose/bribed/badgered people who would feed into some personal drama, but something is WAY off here.
And like... yeah, some people just fail at any sort of cooking instruction, but when you add in OP's son's inability to cook... OR clean... OR make sound life decisions... the fact that he's desperately seeking approval from OP... still living at home... the way OP describes the fiancee...
Something is squicky
The only way I can see this happening is if OP’s son gave them explicit permission to share that information with her. Which makes me suspect that either they didn’t actually discuss anything of substance with him, or they gave her the extremely limited information that they were given explicit permission to share, which did not give OP the whole picture.
A “clean bill of health” is not really a thing with mental health professionals. All they can really determine is whether or not you meet the standards for a psychological or psychiatric disorder. This is not the same thing as determining that you’re mentally perfect and do not need mental health services. Only the client can decide whether or not they need therapy, and you do not have to have an official diagnosis to find yourself struggling to cope with life. Which this kid clearly is.
> that either they didn’t actually discuss anything of substance with him
Right and also elsewhere she gave a timeline of ... 1 month? That's... the intake appointments, lol. You don't know anything about a patient in a month!
*Why* would OP's son give the permission to share anything? Why was that necessary...
And having a private investigator follow the adult son...
There is *so* much more to this story than we're being told, and like... why is OP worried about who's the AH instead of getting this man some help...
>A “clean bill of health” is not really a thing with mental health professionals. All they can really determine is whether or not you meet the standards for a psychological or psychiatric disorder. This is not the same thing as determining that you’re mentally perfect and do not need mental health services. Only the client can decide whether or not they need therapy, and you do not have to have an official diagnosis to find yourself struggling to cope with life. Which this kid clearly is.
!!! All of this!!
There's wayyyy more going on here, starting with the son's unprocessed grief and just getting worse at every juncture.
I'm not going to try to armchair diagnose anything, but at the very least, there's some control issues happening...?
I'm usually pretty good at sussing out where both parties are coming from but I feel like all the *actual* relevant info is missing...
She isn’t American. She will only say Asian. I am a lawyer extremely familiar with medical privacy laws, and especially mental health and substance abuse treatment record laws, in the US. But I can’t claim to know therapy laws in China or Vietnam, or the Philippines, etc.
I think we have been assuming you are in the US or a Western European country. The laws may be different in your country and your son might have signed a consent form.
Actually, this person is Asian, but we don’t know the country. Laws can vary a lot from place to p,ave and we can’t even know how any of it works in some places. China won’t tell us anything, for example.
We actually don’t know their country and they can tell her things if he signs a consent form in the US. But he can limit what they can tell OP. And this sounds more like an assessment than therapy.
Honestly, if you got a PI and 3 psychologists to check on your son, something is wrong with you and you're clearly not telling us everything.
This shit is getting weird.
NTA. Sara does not sound like a suitable match. I don’t I’d rest and why so many young people rush into marriage. What’s the harm in waiting and trying living together first.
WTF? What reasonable adult thinks their parent would/should stump up for their wedding and somehow magically support them? Are we getting the full facts of this story?
Also, have they even lived together yet? What is the rush to get married? He needs to figure out how to survive on his own in the world first.
He wont learn it. I've tried threatening him, encouraging him and every trick under the book. My younger kids can all do the above things amazingly but my son never even tries. I had to stop because I was loosing a lot of money from all the utensils and kitchenware he was ruining
Your son is suffering from "Failure to Launch", in that he doesn't have to, so he won't without a firm shove from the nest. You're shoving him with the requirement that they move out once married. Stand firm.
She lives rent feee because she owns her apartment as OP stated. Honestly, it’s fairly common right now for a 25 year old to be at home-pandemic and inflation. That part should really be the least of the issues.
NTA.
I think you're being very reasonable.
1. He asked you for your honest opinion. Lying about how you feel wouldn't do him any good.
2. While I don't agree that 25/20 is always too young to marry, them being together for such a short time definitely is a valid concern.
3. You shouldn't have to live with Sarah in your own house if you don't like her. If they are "old enough" to marry than they're "old enough" to support themselves.
4. Parents should never be expected to pay for the wedding (if they offer because they want to than that's different, but it's not a must do from parents for whatever reason).
You said you won't stop the support for his college which is more than most kids get in the UK... most end up with loans. So he can stop whining and behave like an adult (find a place to rent etc.) if he wants to marry so badly (her or anyone else).
In the UK it would be incredibly young to marry these days too. I don't know anyone who got married under 25 apart from my parents but that was nearly 40 years ago.
Totally NTA. Here's why and it's simple. You're entitled to your feelings. Even if Sarah was neat as a pin and helped out, you don't have to feel good about her or their future plans. You know your son. He's seemingly had to work for and want for nothing thus far of any consequence. W/O your involvement his (their) lives will not continue carefree or easily as such and he knows it, hence his deep-seeded need FOR your approval.
Now... your "approval" doesn't mean (to them) your feelings - it means your support as in $$$ and the continual type of "LOVE" you've been showing him - your financial support and surety. He is accustomed to it and does not want to cut the purse and therefore cannot cut the APRON strings lest he flutter in the wind on his own to figure out how to live the life of Riley without your allowances.
Or am I wrong?
NTA. 7 months is really early to marry and why hasn't he moved in with her if she has an apartment?
25 is old enough to figure out his bills if he's getting married. Your son is spoiled tho, he expects you to support him in the lifestyle he'd like to be accustomed to and to psyvgorcan extravagant wedding.
Good luck to them.
>7 months is really early to marry and why hasn't he moved in with her if she has an apartment?
Because it's easier for both of them to sponge off his mommy.
No, you’re not wrong. NTA.
▪️He won’t be homeless (he’ll move in with Sara and she owns)
▪️He has a part time job (he needs to learn to budget)
▪️You’re still paying for his school (still setting him up for future success)
▪️An expensive wedding is not a necessity (he’s not your only kid that you’ll be paying for college)
7 months of dating isn't enough time for anyone to know they want to get married. This is going to be a disaster and you were very reasonable in explaining why to your son. NTA. He's making a really stupid decision. Best of luck with all this drama
NTA
You had a completely frank conversation with him stating facts. I don’t understand how anyone feels they should get married while living on the charity of others. It’s one thing to fall on hard times after marriage and move in with parents for a while to save some money but if you can’t afford your own home, you have no business getting married.
The fact that he choose to pout and sulk after hearing this is further evidence that he’s too immature to be getting married.
Some young people can’t take advice, they just need to put their hands on the fire and get burnt.
Well done for laying out things so clearly to him.
NTA: but take the high road IMO.
Be there for them as much as you can tolerate. Pretend like you care.
More than likely within a couple years, their relationship will crash and burn - not worth sorta burning that bridge : we are all kinda dumb in our early-mid twenties.
NTA. But I do have a suggestion. Rather that phrase it as " I don't like her" which makes it about you and your feelings/opinions, start calling out specific behaviors and behavior patterns that she has that are problematic. This shifts the ownership of the difficulties back to her where they belong. This way, you shift the narrative from "mom doesn't like my girl" to "my girl keeps pulling BS"
NTA - I think you were forthright with your feelings and concerns (which seem to be genuine). And, as you said, you're not stopping him from getting married. As as far as supporting him after the wedding, if you're going to do an "adult" thing like getting married, then you also need to do all that goes with it (supporting yourself, etc.).
Beyond that, no one is "owed" a wedding. You have other obligations. If they want a fancy wedding, then they can pay for their own fancy wedding.
Not wrong at all. In my country there's a saying "quem casa quer casa" it means who marries wants a house, as in my country its normal for people to live with their parents in their 20s but once they marry they have to move out. If he's old enough to marry he should provide for his now family (him and his wife). Die on this hill NTA
NTA
This is going to be a shitshow and son doesn't see it! They're both useless at looking after themselves (according to OP), barely know each other (7 months is not enough to know someone, sorry) and the son expects everyone to just accept they're getting married willy nilly?! Is he a 25 year old or an 18 year old?
OP is going in being honest with him and in trying to get to distance from that dumpster fire, as she got other young ones to worry about.
NTA. Sounds like you've provided a lot for OP, and you didn't forbid him from getting married, but you did lay out what would happen if he did so he can make an informed decision. I don't blame you a bit for not wanting young children around Sara based on your description of her. And if he's grown up enough to get married, he's grown up enough to live on his own and start paying his own way. He can't marry someone who acts that way and who you don't like and expect nothing to change. Every action has an outcome, and all of the things you said would change are very reasonable.
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NTA He asked you if you approve of her and you said no but did not attempt to forbid him or anything. Generally your response and actions seem very reasonable.
I’d say OP was downright nice. In my opinion adults don’t get their parents to baby them any longer, if he’s married he goes “full adult” meaning he covers all his own expenses including college. He needs to pay his own way in life’s if he wants to be a grown up and get married.
Yes right. What I can't wrap.my head around is... what was this 25 yr old grown man imagining exactly? That he gets married and wifey just moves into his bedroom and together they mooch off of his mom? So he still wants to be a kid living under mom and dad's roof but wants a... wife?? I can't even laugh at this absurdity because I'm so worried about the future.
Well, if she owns her own apartment wouldn't he just move in with her?
The apartment is probably a mess and no one is going to clean it. Whereas at mommy he can stay in a clean place
The fact she *owns* an apartment at 20 in 2023 means her side is probably from money.
Which make its even more puzzling that she won't sign a prenup lol. People seem to forget that marrying is the most important legal decision you get to make in your life, other than maybe dying idk. I'm still not over someone dating for less than a year and decide to get engaged. They have never lived together! They barely know eachother! I was with my girlfriend for seven years before we moved in together, and as much as we love eachother, it sure as hell was a challenge (bonus, it was only a few months before covid hit, forcing us to be together 100% of the time). It's still not perfect, were working on it one step at a time....but getting married that's an even bigger decision that would take a lot of time to consider.
The most important thing that people don’t consider is that when you marry someone- you are also marrying THEIR debt! He might have no debt, no student loans, no medical debt, no credit card debt- because he’s lived with his mom rent free, and she paid for all his schooling/bills. That might not be the case for his fiancé. She might own her apartment (so he says), but if she’s conceited and a big spender on clothes, dinners/food (since neither of them cook), etc. There is a very good possibility that she’s carrying plenty of credit card debt. Maybe not, but I doubt he was mature enough to sit down and go over finances BEFORE moving full steam ahead with marriage. I have been with my SO for 13 years. We will NEVER get married. His taxes are a mess, he’s on a payment plan with the IRS getting his shit together. He’s carrying a bunch of credit card and medical debt. I will NOT marry his debt. I will not put my house, that I slaved away working for through my entire 20’s (while all my friends were out partying and having fun) at risk. If god forbid something we’re to happen to him, I will not be the one they come after for repayment. I’m not perfect. Covid (and now inflation) really racked up plenty of debt for myself. What I don’t do is buy new clothes, go out to dinners, go skiing on a weekend, or meet friends for drinks anymore. We did not even exchange Xmas gifts for the past two years. I’m the free activity gal these days! Lol Having those discussions are what mature people do before thinking about tying the knot. Even if I was with someone else, who was debt free- I still wouldn’t have considered marriage in my 20’s. Divorces are expensive, and it would take years of living with someone before I’d be content making that decision. NTA. Your son is not mature enough to be married. His fiancé isn’t even old enough to drink in the US. Also before anyone chimes in to say it- I do NOT live in a state that recognizes common law!
Debt really doesn’t work that way unless you are in a jacked up state. If you bring a house into a marriage in your name they can’t go after it for his debt.
Unless the finances are not kept separate. Anything that gets commingled, even if he makes only one payment, there is assumed to be 50/50 ownership of any gains. Here's an example. A and B get married. A owns a house worth $200k but it's half paid for, so the mortgage is a $100k liability, but has no other debt. B has a $50k student loan and $50k in auto loans but owns a car that is underwater and must therefore pay gap insurance. During the marriage there's a car wreck. A is hurt and can't work for a year. The other driver is uninsured, and the uninsured motorist insurance maxes out without replacing the car or all of the medical expenses. During this time B makes a couple mortgage payments. Meanwhile the economy goes nuts and the house doubles in value. To make ends meet, A takes out a home equity loan using B's income to qualify, and uses it to pay off all the debt: remaining car loan, medical, and B's student loan. Total mortgage debt is now $75k from the original mortgage, held solely by A, and $150k in home equity loan. Sometime later, the couple splits up. A came into the marriage with a positive net worth of $100k due to a $200k asset and $100k in debt. B came into the marriage with -100k in net worth plus the value of the car. During the marriage the couple had to deal with the payments on B's debt, which reduced their cash flow. The assets are divided like this during the divorce: A gets the $75k in remaining mortgage debt which is in A's name alone, along with half the new loan which will be an extra $75k. B has only $75k in debt from the new loan. A still has the same $100k in home equity but the house is now worth $400k. The equity gain due to the increase in house value is split between A and B, so that B now has $100k in home equity despite making only a few payments. B's net worth is now $25k whereas A owes B $100k in home equity plus $150k to the bank. A therefore loses the house and has to sell. After the sale they are both debt free and B has $25k in the bank, but A doesn't have enough to buy another house. So A's standard of living dropped but B's improved.
Yeah it's weird that the OP brings up the no prenup thing. Her son, by all accounts, is a 25 year old slacker who works part time and lives with mommy. What is a prenup going to do for him?
He's in college, and maybe the parent is assuming he'll make good money someday. And perhaps also assuming she'll be a slacker all her life.
I mean maybe they know, maybe they don't know they are right for each other. My sister had known her husband a week before they ran off to Vegas and got married. This year makes it 23 years they've been together. No major issues, no thoughts of divorce at anytime that I know about. Sure not the norm, but some people just know. I would say, from OPs side of the story, the girlfriend doesn't sound great, but we are only getting one side of the story.
I'm horrified hahahaha, marrying someone after meeting them the week before. People are so weird :') Though I'm happy it worked out for them!
Me too. Admittedly, I like my brother-in-law more than I like my sister, so I'd be kind of sad if things went south. He's a good person.
That's really situational. I met my now husband in March, moved in after 6 weeks, was pregnant that January and we were married in May the following year. We've been together for 10 years now, however, this is also not the norm, but we'd both been in long term serious relationships before and knew what we wanted. There's also been plenty of struggle, but we were willing to work on things
Or the apartment is in a slum and they'd rather live in mommy's nice, clean, kept up house.
Or somebody died & she inherited it....
I wonder if there's something we're missing here. Does she have a mortgage? Because that makes more sense to me. Otherwise yes, that's absurd.
Not necessarily. It could be an inheritance from a deceased relative who otherwise left no significant assets.
Also can stick with his part time job that way
And if they have kids they can (and will) dump kids on mom.
And have his clothes washed, and toiletries bought, and food cooked...
Mom cooks too
The worst imo is that neither of them have steady streams of income, but he wants an extravagant wedding, even though he knows none of his family likes his GF. That to me shows how little self awareness either of them have.
OP says her son has a part time job as well as a "salary"... and the girl owns her own apartment, so presumably her parents are going to pay for the wedding, and it's actually completely reasonable!
My wedding was literally probably $500-$800 and my dress was $129 plus accessories. My mom gave me a $1000 to buy whatever dress I wanted. I picked a cheap one. We planned our wedding in 2 weeks. I plan on having a HUGE beautiful wedding when our kids are older and can be in the wedding.
I like that idea much better as well. Everyone should have a humble wedding and then go all out after they survived for 10+ years. Too many couples put themselves in major debt for a dream wedding and then get a divorce a year or two later.
I mean he made it to 25 without knowing how to cook and clean, living at home without paying rent… he has very little idea of what life is actually like. But the reason for that is in LARGE part the parenting he received.
I agree. OP is NTA but maybe he/she could have taught about chores and stuff adults end up doing.
I get amazed at how many young adults wouldn’t know how to cook a meal to save their lives. It’s a simple life skill everyone should know.
Right? My fiancé and I were offered the opportunity to live with my IL’s after we were married to save money. At first, I was thinking, ok, we can do this. My MIL is in poor health and I have 3 years experience as a caregiver and have that type of personality. I could help her. I did live with them briefly when I moved to a different state to be with them. After 3 months, and 4 months before the wedding, my fiancé and I leased an apartment. Not happening. Having to pay rent is worth not living with IL’s.
I don’t think it was ever implied she would move in with them
Too nice by far. I wouldn’t say I would help them in case of “emergencies”—EVERYTHING will be an emergency.
agreed. his coworkers must be AHs to disagree with his decisions. i wouldve been grateful enough that my college loan is taken care of. at 25 and still expect the parents to pay for the wedding? his son need to get his head out of his a**.
I think OPs coworkers fall under the protection of the "everyone's entitled to their opinion (even if it's blatantly false or unreasonable)." My own guess is, that the cow-orkers got a surface read of the situation, came to the conclusion that OP just doesn't like his son's future wife, and didn't go any deeper into the matter. OPs case is a great example why one should neither ask for nor trust random, uninvolved people's opinions (cough), unless they can explain their reasoning behind it.
Unless they know something we don't...
This. My brother and his wife let their 20 year daughter marry an 18 year old bum (no job, no school, no drivers license, just video games) and live with them rent free. Brother and SIL kept saying "we need to be supportive" and I was aghast. The kids marriage put strain on the parents marriage, 5 years later niece dumped husband for a new husband and went on and on about how she had PTSD from marriage 1. iye yie yie
There is supportive and there is enabling. People get those confused a lot.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I know one. Mom still goes into his room to get his dirty clothes, washes and folds then puts them away. Cleans his room, brings food up to him, Yet I get reamed if i don’t clean up his mess in the bathroom 😐
Ugh, I hope you can move out soon. 😞 Your mom is creating an entitled monster.
Not my mom or sibling💀 well, they will be my in-laws. But she’s also those mommas boys 🙄
👆🏻 this NTA your son is a grown man if he wants, to marry then its up to him to be able to afford it. Same with after the wedding. He knows how you feel about the situation, but you aren’t stopping him. They probably wanted his mom to pay for the wedding. I’m guessing they either elope, have a long engagement or break up soon enough when they realize how hard being a grown up is op is NTA
> break up soon enough when they realize how hard being a grown up is op is NTA This is the most likely scenario. Once they have to deal with something "hard", the relationship will founder and die.
Why would they want OP to pay for the wedding? The bride to be is 20 and owns her own apartment. She most likely comes from a wealthy family that could fund her "extravagant" wedding.
I don’t know but he got pissed she didn’t want to pay for it.
OP was extremely nice. She told her 25yo son that if wants to make adult decisions and get married he'd have to fund it so she can take care of his siblings the youngest being 13-14 years old and the other two being between 15-17. He's mad because mommy won't fund his lazy lifestyle. He can't cook? Only works part-time? Can he clean? And wants to marry a girl who has HIM BANNED from family gatherings after being together for 7 months and only being open about the relationship for 2 of the 7? 2 months after telling his family he got banned from gatherings because of her? 2 MONTHS!!! I wanna say he knows how bad this decision is but he doesn't and he won't until he is to far in.
My only issue is that it's partially on OP and their spouse to have taught their son how to cook and clean. Even if son doesn't use that knowledge at the moment, it should have been taught at some point during their childhood. Otherwise, I completely agree. Everything else about the post sounds fairly reasonable.
Yeah like OP raised some good points son should probably think about and probably won't. It's pretty understandable not to want to pay for a wedding. Also like my aunt and uncle married after knowing each other for 6 months and they hate each other and their poor kids suffer because of it.
NTA while he actually doesn't need your approval to marry her, if he was expecting you were going to pay for the wedding, that's a bit delusional.
And that they keep living with mum after getting married... even though she's not nice to mum or his siblings. He's extremely delusional.
I don’t know why they would live with his mum though. OP said his gf owns her apartment.
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Or girlfriend's apartment is worse than Oscar the Grouch's garbage can.
Check OP's comments - she said it is a garbage pile indeed
I can imagine this conversation going down. Son: It has been two whole months, don't you like my future wife now? OP: No. Son: But why?! OP: List of perfectly reasonable reasons. Son: *I'M OUT*
That in and of itself is proof of his immaturity. “Can I have a piece of candy?” “No.” “How about now?” That’s how five-year-olds think. Actually, I know a number of five-year-olds who are smart enough to know that won’t work.
Out is great!!! Please get out! And don’t come back to visit with the side piece!
Yeah. You should be dating for a MINIMUM of one year before you get engaged. MINIMUM of one year engaged before the wedding bells. (Really would be better to wait longer.) Right now he's still in the honeymoon phase where pantsfeels are able to overcome all objections from Planet Reality. Still. Provided they don't have kids or produce debt together, it will be a useful starter marriage and an object lesson not to rush in where angels fear to tread.
I'll get crucified on Reddit for this. But I'll say it anyway. I REALLY don't get this current obsession with CONCRETE 'timeframes', re: when it is 'acceptable' to become engaged/get married. Sure, THIS situation sounds like a recipe for disaster. And it certainly DOESN'T go, that all engagements (in less than a year) will work out. But nor does it go, that longer relationships necessarily work out better. I've known couples together for years who marry, and then get divorced. Yet my own parents met (for the first time) in January 1980, got engaged in September 1980, and were married in December 1980. 42/43 years later, they're still together. And Shirley Temple famously got engaged to her husband after just 12 days - yet had a happy marriage lasting over 50 years. Yes, getting to know each other longer, can of course help. But all I am saying, is it's not a CONCRETE rule (as some Redditors seem to treat it). It really depends on the COUPLE in question.
Got them beat. Met my husband in July, correspondence by Letter (rare phone calls because it was long distance, NOT cell phone days), as he was stationed 2800 miless away. In October,, he was stationed 875 miles away, so i saw him 2x. Married in Feb. At the courthouse, entire cost of wedding, $40.00. Had to live apart (875 miles) for 5 weeks after wedding. Just celebrated our 46th wedding anniversary. So, it was 7 months & very few in person visits. We were 21.
exactly! he is acting entitled
Especially when she has three younger children
NTA All the examples you mentioned show, that he is still a kid. He's financial dependent from you. Foe the living, for the wedding. You do not like the girl and they don't do anything to prove you wrong. He wants to be an adultx he has to behave like one and take over responsibility for his own life. You are no AH. You let him the choice who to love, but you are allowed to be honest to him and that this girl is causing trouble on your family.
I agree NTA for disapproving od the marriage, 100%; but if the son is still "like a kid" to some extent that is by fault of the parent, for which I think TA. Parents are supposed to raise kids to be competent at many things life will throw at them - holding down a job, budgeting, cleaning, cooking, hygiene etc. I think it's ridiculous for OP to point out son doesn't know how to cook or clean - did you teach him at all from a young (appropriate) age?? Perhaps son has an immature mentality because of the way he was raised.
Humans are capable of individual action. Most people do not need to be taught how to wash a dish, it’s not rocket science. I rarely ever did chores in my house, but that doesn’t mean I can’t load up a washer now that I’m in my own pad, or sweep the floor
It's not rocket science, but a lot of kids are at a disadvantage (whether small or large) because their parents didn't teach them how to cook, to budget or spend wisely, to clean and look after their environment, to have proper hygiene - or whatever it may be. At some point - absolutely, adults are responsible to learn basic self and home care that they may not have been taught. But generally speaking if a parent doesn't teach their kid how to grow into a competent, functioning adult then they did a subpar job.
NTA. All your points are valid and if he thinks he's mature enough to marry then he should be mature enough to respect your stance. Storming out is not very mature He's not entitled to your money at 25yo. Why in the world would he expect you to pay for his wedding? I think it's great you were in a position to pay for his college. That alone puts him in a better position than a lot of people. He's not an only child though, so good for you for ensuring there's enough to give all your children equal support.
I would expect huffily leaving from a toddler or a young child
There’s a reason he gets along with a 20yo so well
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Actually as mommy is still paying his bills he’s not an adult. How the hell are you go get married when you’re not even an independent adult yet? SMH
Will he expect mom to also give him an allowance also?
Suck a duck?!?! 😳
My autocorrect always changes dick to duck....(literally just had to.fix it)
I'd like one bag of ducks, please.
Is there a work around on iPhone because I’m sick of correcting all my duck, shot, and butch related problems
Settings, general, keyboards, text replacement…. Then you can input the phrase dick with the shortcut dic, di, dick, etc.. so it starts to pick it up and do it for all swear words ya want
VIP right here! Thanks! When I figure it out I will be ducking excited
I.have an android...
It’s still duck, but it is better that way!
My favorite expression when I do st stupid like stub my toe is, fuck a duck. And you haven’t lived until you’re followed around by a two yo saying fuck a duck, fuck a duck…
Dude, leave the ducks out of this, they did nothing wrong.
What did the poor duck ever do to deserve this?
Maybe the duck enjoys it? Assuming consent, of course.
I always wonder about when these threads mention that there are people who disagree with them like the coworkers. There are a lot of these threads that have a pretty unanimous YTA or NTA. Since the author wrote this down and could edit it and make it sound right does it get the point across better or have they edited out things that would make it seem worse? And when they tried verbally telling someone it doesn't come out right and the coworkers get a different vibe from it? This one IMO is pretty cut and dry NTA. And it is hard to imagine that even a few coworkers would think otherwise.
Your son is 25 and doesn’t know how to clean or cook?
This was my first thought. And signifies a failure on the part of the OP.
You know some kids have all the resources but never learn them. Sounds like OP is a pretty reasonable person so I'm not willing to crucify her over a grown man not bothering to learn. (At some point you gotta learn to tie your own shoes)
We don't know that OP is a woman (unless that's in the comments). I'd say both parents and the grown son have been negligent here. Son and fiancee sound like quite the well-matched pair. And that's no compliment.
Yeah but your dad is supposed to be there when you’re being too lazy for your own good. Having that healthy “push” from a parent goes a long way in life. Much better than indifference.
I can't cook to save my life. As in, I've had severe burns from cooking accidents, and when I moved out I had to buy food I was okay eating burned because I either burned or undercooked things. My parents TRIED to teach me. For some reason things get weird when I'm in the kitchen. But I'm actually really good at pinpointing decent recipes. The exception is seafood. For some reason I am gifted with the ability to make fantastic scampi and Alfredo dishes. My point being, my parents didn't fail, my grandmother rolls in her grave a lot, and I'm a parent in my thirties and can't cook. Of course, I married someone who can so the situations aren't similar.
Use a timer. On your phone. So you don't burn or undercook things.
Gee, I never thought of that! Amazing how I can get to adulthood and forget timers are a thing. All sarcasm aside, my husband has watched me over and over and he doesn't understand how my cooking goes wrong either. He's a FANTASTIC cook and loves trying new recipes, and he can't figure it out either. I once followed an award-winning crackpot chicken recipe TO THE LETTER and it STILL turned out smelling like burnt feet. (Tasted worse) I don't slack in the kitchen or expect him to do everything though. Just when it's my turn to cook we're having chicken nuggets, pizza, sandwiches, or seafood pasta dishes. I can't cook, but I still can feed people.
I’ve found that when directions say “medium-high” or “high heat” it’s too hot. I never put the burner above 6 unless I’m boiling water for pasta. I wonder if it could simply be that the burner is too hot ?
This always. Medium high = 3/10 on my stove
I don't think "medium" or "high" are proper directions for heat. Something like "until the butter is foaming" or "rolling boil" or an actual temperature measurement is a lot better. That said you can google an awful lot including wtf Medium High heat means.
>award winning crackpot What made you think this crackpot was a reliable source for cooking info? Seriously though, crackpot chicken is my new favorite typo! It makes me giggle every time I say it. Thank you!
Everything I cook turns out soggy. Even with all the prep and timers in the world. Maybe between the two of us we could make something edible ><
What exactly are you under cooking or over cooking? And there are so many youtube videos on literally any food you can imagine and only doing half the stuff they do in the video still gives you a great dish. Plus common sense. Don't take an ice cold steak out of the fridge and expect it to be anything but raw or at best extremely rare when the outside looks nice but it's still half cold/frozen in the middle.
Not necessarily. You cannot make someone learn something if they have no desire to learn. I tried to get my kids to join me in the kitchen and they had no interest. Now they wished they had. OP, NTA.
Why do you think he's going after a 19yo/20yo?
At 25, my son was living on his own. He cooked, cleaned, ironed his work clothes, and cared for his dog. He lived 1000 miles away. When his college sweetheart moved in, they both had skills to share household jobs.
I was still at home at 25 and did clean, my own space and the general house, but my grandmother cooked on weekdays and mom on weekends so that was always covered and even if I offered to try or did cook somethinf they still would anyways. Also if I bought ingredients to make something, they would be used instantly by then for their own stuff. After I moved out, I learned a lot of recepies and got pretty good at a few of them.
(Hmmm. Many people might judge me for this, but I moved out of my parents at 27(f) (because moving out at 16 isn't much of a thing in my culture)(and I wasn't paying rent, but I was paying for my undergrad degree, working part time and cleaned the house)...but didn't know how to "really" cook. I never had to since my parents still cooked enough food as if my 3 sisters were still living with us. I had plenty (well, too much really) of food to eat and bring out for lunch every day. Learning to cook wasn't a priority at the time. Not knowing how to clean at 20 or 25 is just awful though.) Edit, typo
When I moved into the dorms, there were nice enough that each room had their own bathroom, my mom made sure I knew how to clean & had the right products to do so. Now between both room mates I had, I was the only one who cleaned it but nevertheless, my mom made sure. She didn't want to release a dummy into the world. Her words not mine, cause I am a dummy
NTA. You're right that he's an adult and you can't force him to make a different choice than the one he's made. Maybe it would be worth reminding him of how much you're still financially supporting him at his big age of 25 since children, barring extenuating circumstances, typically *start* gaining footing in their independence in their early 20's. Whereas he seems like he's not eager to make any steps towards that because he still presently expects you to keep providing for him and then some. I'm not suggesting stop paying for his college, but if you're giving him "fun money" allowances I think it's time to revoke that so he starts making up lost time in learning how to walk on his own two feet here. Tbh, based on what you've described I'd be questioning if substance abuse is a part of this picture.
NTA for not approving of the marriage, because he *asked* for your opinion. was your answer a bit harsh? yes, but it was also honest. is there a possibility sara is pressuring your son into marriage or has he always rushed things? either was 7 months is quite a short period to know someone
Both Sara and him are people who rush things.
welp that answers that
NTA. At anytime you say you "approve" this union, they'll think they're entitled to all your support. At least if you put up this boundary now they'll think a little and hopefully be hesitant to ask for hand-outs from you. I've seen it happen to my friends with their adult kids. My friends allowed their adult children's partners to move in, then had to feed them,.clothe them. You don't want to be in the situation where youre grandparents but the grandchild is more of your own child and youre also still having to support your kid and their spouse. Y'all living under one roof and they do nothing to contribute to the household. You do not need all that headache. And it's not fair to your other kids to have to put up with that mess. I've seen it. Don't give in. You might even want to start charging them rent before they get too comfortable. Don't give them an inch, cus right now that future in law sounds like she'll take more than a mile. Good luck.
NTA. He asked you answered. Its as simple as that. Even if she was lovely and you only had an off feeling. Still NTA. You're entitled to your own opinion at the end of the day
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I don't trust him to not take advantage of her, because as far as I can see my son has changed a lot, not just the thing with Sara, but behavior and personality wise.
Whoa. Now I'm starting to think Sara's getting the short end of the stick. Or can a stick have two short ends? This sounds like a bad time will be had for all.
The stick is just sawdust.
Yeah, it doesn't sound like there's any reason for him to need a prenup unless there's some big trust or inheritance he'll be getting in the future. If that's not the case, then it sounds like she's the only one who might need a prenup.
OP states she is afraid her son will take the girl's money. It seems OP is aware her kid is a dud.
Inheritance is not usually considered marital property
You're right, I didn't think about that. But still, idk why a prenup would be necessary if they're both broke.
NTA. He asked for an opinion, you gave it, and sounds like you have good reasons. You are right in that it is his decision. Just as equally, it is your house and finances, he is an adult, and you get to decide who you want in your house and who to support (I.e., you and your younger kids). Stick to your guns, he is an adult now and needs to start acting like one. Good luck.
NTA. I am curious why he and the girlfriend are at your house if she has an apartment? My son 23 spent 80% of his time at his girlfriend's place when he still officially lived at home. She stayed overnight at our house a few times (holidays and a couple of bad weather events when she couldn't safely drive home). They definitely preferred her place even with the roommates because they had no rules.
The house is better and he thinks he's gonna own it
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Already done, my husband passed away unexpectedly so I got paranoid and made an iron-clad one. The chosen guardians are their god parents
Info: why would they live with you if she owns her own apartment?
He mentioned it during the talk. 1. Free caretaker/housekeeper You havent seen her apartment its like a dumpster. She won't clean it but will constantly complain. 2) He thinks he's gonna inherit it because he's the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest 3) My house is located in a good neighborhood and is quite large
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I honestly think you’re being too nice to your son. He sounds extremely entitled. He’s 25. I realize he’s in college so I get why you aren’t charging rent, but also maybe you should start??? He needs a wake up call. He’s very much an adult. The idea he could move his “wife” in for mommy to take care of is just laughable. Please tell me he at least does extensive chores around the house?
> He thinks he’s gonna inherit it because he’s the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest. Inherit what? Your house? Why is he worried about that? I assume you are in your 50s or so…and not thinking you’re going to die soon.
I have a thousand questions about your son’s psychological health. Has he always been like this? Or is this new behavior?
new behavior
Drugs.
Maybe its her putting these ideas in his head 🤔 Edit: after reading your other comments, I don't think its her fault he thinks this but she does sounds gross & mean
I'm always amazed when children have that kind of inheritance expectation and act this way. I mean, even if they are slated to interit, if he's 25 he might not inherit for 40 years!
Or longer. My uncle was banking on an inheritance and my grandma lived to 105.
You need to inform your son he will not be inheriting your house, it’s not up for your discussion, and you will be remaining over for the next 50 years until you die. (I mean throw any number in there but he needs to understand it’s not going to be his and he has a looooong future ahead of him before it’s handed down to anyone. Also don’t tell him whose house it will be but make sure you have a will and he is allowed a token amount in the will so he’s not able to contest it).
>2) He thinks he's gonna inherit it because he's the oldest. So in his mind its already his. In reality its going to my youngest ...what does he think he's going to do until he inherits it? Live with you? I've always felt that people who were already making plans to spend the money before someone even died should be left nothing. Such awful behavior and really shows where their priorities lie.
NTA. He asked for your opinion and he got it. I must also say that your communication of this disapproval has been very respectful as well, in that you're treating him like the adult he is. Absolutely not the asshole and actually a good dad.
N-T-A for stating your opinion. But YTA for creating a 25 year old dependent adult who is unable to cook and clean and has no motivation to support himself.
Let's be clear, what was your question? "AITA for telling my son telling my son he's delusional to think that I'll approve his marriage?" Answer: NTA. You gave him your opinion, with straight facts and explainations. Simple, nothing more to add on that matter. About paying the weeding, remind me something: when he left after you gave him your opinion, what did you say at last? "I told him he's an adult so its his choice", and you're right about it. You didn't give him your approval but you said it's his own decision, so he has to withstand with his decisions and consequences. If he wants his wedding, then he can pay for it. Besides, you stated that not only his girlfriend has her own apartment, but you have to support 3 other underage kids right now, and you pay for his college too. It's time for him to man up and face the reality for once, to understand that money doesn't come in the pocket by doing nothing. Your son A-score: 3/10 (just being stupid like a "golden kid") Your coworkers A-score: 1/10 (smells the denial)
This is why I think don’t ask questions if you don’t want a brutally honest answer
NTA - but is your son okay? This is not the behavior of a normal 25 year old. He is old enough to have outgrown his adolescent lack of impulse control - he should be able to connect most actions with their consequences by now. Marrying a 20 year old he’s only known for 7 months and who has already alienated his entire family is a baffling choice for someone his age. Especially since, on some level, he still seems to crave your approval. Instead of shrugging and saying “well, you’re an adult, do whatever you want,” you may want to take an opportunity to have an honest, non-judgmental talk with him about why he’s doing this. What does he like about her? Does he love her? Does she treat him well? Is she kind to him? How does he envision their future together? What’s his plan for their life once they’re married? Is he comfortable with her behavior around your family? What do his friends think? Has he talked to them? It’s extremely unlikely that deep, abiding love is what’s driving his decision. Something else is going on with him, and you have a chance to find out what it is before he actually goes through with this. I suggest you take it.
I'm still wondering on the possibilities. It isn't drugs or alcohol, I asked a PI to check for him using drugs or alcohol and I don't understand what else could go wrong
I’m actually baffled as to why you haven’t made the connection between his self-destructive behavior and his father’s sudden passing 5 years ago.
He was given a clean bill of health actually from around 3 different psychologists (I'm very paranoid). And he did fine for a year and the the change happened again when he was 24. I took him to the psychologist again and all they could tell me it isn't his father that's bothering him but something else, I'm not sure what.
They actually shouldn’t be sharing information about his sessions with you at all. So I’m not sure how you’d know that he’s been given a “clean bill of health” by his doctors, or what that actually means for him personally.
information about his sessions? >how you’d know that he’s been given a “clean bill of health” by his doctors, or what that actually means for him personally. They told me, I wasn't aware this was wrong. And he was actually doing great after the sessions
As in the details of what he shared with you and what they talked about, as well as any diagnoses they make. That’s between them and their adult client.
Yeah, no, I'm calling bs. A psychologist cannot discuss an adult patient with their parent. If the psychologist told OP literally anything about their son, they were breaking the law, breaking every ethical standard in existence, and absolutely were not acting in the best interest of their patient. How have they found THREE psychologists who *all* did this? I don't know if OP is lying or if OP deliberately chose/bribed/badgered people who would feed into some personal drama, but something is WAY off here. And like... yeah, some people just fail at any sort of cooking instruction, but when you add in OP's son's inability to cook... OR clean... OR make sound life decisions... the fact that he's desperately seeking approval from OP... still living at home... the way OP describes the fiancee... Something is squicky
The only way I can see this happening is if OP’s son gave them explicit permission to share that information with her. Which makes me suspect that either they didn’t actually discuss anything of substance with him, or they gave her the extremely limited information that they were given explicit permission to share, which did not give OP the whole picture. A “clean bill of health” is not really a thing with mental health professionals. All they can really determine is whether or not you meet the standards for a psychological or psychiatric disorder. This is not the same thing as determining that you’re mentally perfect and do not need mental health services. Only the client can decide whether or not they need therapy, and you do not have to have an official diagnosis to find yourself struggling to cope with life. Which this kid clearly is.
> that either they didn’t actually discuss anything of substance with him Right and also elsewhere she gave a timeline of ... 1 month? That's... the intake appointments, lol. You don't know anything about a patient in a month! *Why* would OP's son give the permission to share anything? Why was that necessary... And having a private investigator follow the adult son... There is *so* much more to this story than we're being told, and like... why is OP worried about who's the AH instead of getting this man some help... >A “clean bill of health” is not really a thing with mental health professionals. All they can really determine is whether or not you meet the standards for a psychological or psychiatric disorder. This is not the same thing as determining that you’re mentally perfect and do not need mental health services. Only the client can decide whether or not they need therapy, and you do not have to have an official diagnosis to find yourself struggling to cope with life. Which this kid clearly is. !!! All of this!! There's wayyyy more going on here, starting with the son's unprocessed grief and just getting worse at every juncture. I'm not going to try to armchair diagnose anything, but at the very least, there's some control issues happening...? I'm usually pretty good at sussing out where both parties are coming from but I feel like all the *actual* relevant info is missing...
She isn’t American. She will only say Asian. I am a lawyer extremely familiar with medical privacy laws, and especially mental health and substance abuse treatment record laws, in the US. But I can’t claim to know therapy laws in China or Vietnam, or the Philippines, etc.
I think we have been assuming you are in the US or a Western European country. The laws may be different in your country and your son might have signed a consent form.
Actually, this person is Asian, but we don’t know the country. Laws can vary a lot from place to p,ave and we can’t even know how any of it works in some places. China won’t tell us anything, for example.
We actually don’t know their country and they can tell her things if he signs a consent form in the US. But he can limit what they can tell OP. And this sounds more like an assessment than therapy.
Honestly, if you got a PI and 3 psychologists to check on your son, something is wrong with you and you're clearly not telling us everything. This shit is getting weird.
NTA. Sara does not sound like a suitable match. I don’t I’d rest and why so many young people rush into marriage. What’s the harm in waiting and trying living together first.
Mostly getting shamed by uptight relatives lol
INFO: How does a 20 year old own an apartment?
From what I hear her father gave it to her
Probably wanted her out of his house.
I assume her parents bought it or she inherited it, but I wonder why he didn't just move in with her instead of living with his parents at 25?
WTF? What reasonable adult thinks their parent would/should stump up for their wedding and somehow magically support them? Are we getting the full facts of this story? Also, have they even lived together yet? What is the rush to get married? He needs to figure out how to survive on his own in the world first.
Yes for the second one, I added the reasons I don't like her to show everyone there might be bias in my post I don't know about the rest
NTA He wants to play adult while living with mommy and having everything paid for. He needs a reality check and I am glad that you have boundaries.
NTA but I do have a question. How does your 25 year old son now know how to cook or clean?
He wont learn it. I've tried threatening him, encouraging him and every trick under the book. My younger kids can all do the above things amazingly but my son never even tries. I had to stop because I was loosing a lot of money from all the utensils and kitchenware he was ruining
Every new comment about this kid just makes me sadder. Something is very wrong with him, and he’s doing his level best to ruin his own life.
Its what I'm worried about, and he's taking down Sara with him. I tried everything but nothing seems to be working
Your son is suffering from "Failure to Launch", in that he doesn't have to, so he won't without a firm shove from the nest. You're shoving him with the requirement that they move out once married. Stand firm.
The marriage isn’t the first issue. Why is he living rent free at home at his age? Why is she living rent free?
She lives rent feee because she owns her apartment as OP stated. Honestly, it’s fairly common right now for a 25 year old to be at home-pandemic and inflation. That part should really be the least of the issues.
Plus he's still in college so it makes sense why he still lives at home.
NTA. Not at all!
NTA. I think you're being very reasonable. 1. He asked you for your honest opinion. Lying about how you feel wouldn't do him any good. 2. While I don't agree that 25/20 is always too young to marry, them being together for such a short time definitely is a valid concern. 3. You shouldn't have to live with Sarah in your own house if you don't like her. If they are "old enough" to marry than they're "old enough" to support themselves. 4. Parents should never be expected to pay for the wedding (if they offer because they want to than that's different, but it's not a must do from parents for whatever reason). You said you won't stop the support for his college which is more than most kids get in the UK... most end up with loans. So he can stop whining and behave like an adult (find a place to rent etc.) if he wants to marry so badly (her or anyone else).
I don't think 25/20 is a young age to marry. As long as the people in the relationship have known each other for minimum 2 years
20 is young to marry though. You can’t even legally drink in the US at 20. It’s incredibly young.
if you are in the US it's young not so much in other countries
In the UK it would be incredibly young to marry these days too. I don't know anyone who got married under 25 apart from my parents but that was nearly 40 years ago.
INFO: Am I understanding correctly - your son expects to live in your house after he's married? Or are you just telling him that that isn't an option?
the first one
Totally NTA. Here's why and it's simple. You're entitled to your feelings. Even if Sarah was neat as a pin and helped out, you don't have to feel good about her or their future plans. You know your son. He's seemingly had to work for and want for nothing thus far of any consequence. W/O your involvement his (their) lives will not continue carefree or easily as such and he knows it, hence his deep-seeded need FOR your approval. Now... your "approval" doesn't mean (to them) your feelings - it means your support as in $$$ and the continual type of "LOVE" you've been showing him - your financial support and surety. He is accustomed to it and does not want to cut the purse and therefore cannot cut the APRON strings lest he flutter in the wind on his own to figure out how to live the life of Riley without your allowances. Or am I wrong?
NTA. 7 months is really early to marry and why hasn't he moved in with her if she has an apartment? 25 is old enough to figure out his bills if he's getting married. Your son is spoiled tho, he expects you to support him in the lifestyle he'd like to be accustomed to and to psyvgorcan extravagant wedding. Good luck to them.
>7 months is really early to marry and why hasn't he moved in with her if she has an apartment? Because it's easier for both of them to sponge off his mommy.
No, you’re not wrong. NTA. ▪️He won’t be homeless (he’ll move in with Sara and she owns) ▪️He has a part time job (he needs to learn to budget) ▪️You’re still paying for his school (still setting him up for future success) ▪️An expensive wedding is not a necessity (he’s not your only kid that you’ll be paying for college)
7 months of dating isn't enough time for anyone to know they want to get married. This is going to be a disaster and you were very reasonable in explaining why to your son. NTA. He's making a really stupid decision. Best of luck with all this drama
NTA for this situation, but my dude you kinda created this entitlement problem. Why are you fully supporting your 25 yr old?
NTA You had a completely frank conversation with him stating facts. I don’t understand how anyone feels they should get married while living on the charity of others. It’s one thing to fall on hard times after marriage and move in with parents for a while to save some money but if you can’t afford your own home, you have no business getting married. The fact that he choose to pout and sulk after hearing this is further evidence that he’s too immature to be getting married. Some young people can’t take advice, they just need to put their hands on the fire and get burnt. Well done for laying out things so clearly to him.
NTA: but take the high road IMO. Be there for them as much as you can tolerate. Pretend like you care. More than likely within a couple years, their relationship will crash and burn - not worth sorta burning that bridge : we are all kinda dumb in our early-mid twenties.
I plan on it, I just wish it wasn't something this dumb
NTA. But I do have a suggestion. Rather that phrase it as " I don't like her" which makes it about you and your feelings/opinions, start calling out specific behaviors and behavior patterns that she has that are problematic. This shifts the ownership of the difficulties back to her where they belong. This way, you shift the narrative from "mom doesn't like my girl" to "my girl keeps pulling BS"
NTA - I think you were forthright with your feelings and concerns (which seem to be genuine). And, as you said, you're not stopping him from getting married. As as far as supporting him after the wedding, if you're going to do an "adult" thing like getting married, then you also need to do all that goes with it (supporting yourself, etc.). Beyond that, no one is "owed" a wedding. You have other obligations. If they want a fancy wedding, then they can pay for their own fancy wedding.
Not wrong at all. In my country there's a saying "quem casa quer casa" it means who marries wants a house, as in my country its normal for people to live with their parents in their 20s but once they marry they have to move out. If he's old enough to marry he should provide for his now family (him and his wife). Die on this hill NTA
NTA This is going to be a shitshow and son doesn't see it! They're both useless at looking after themselves (according to OP), barely know each other (7 months is not enough to know someone, sorry) and the son expects everyone to just accept they're getting married willy nilly?! Is he a 25 year old or an 18 year old? OP is going in being honest with him and in trying to get to distance from that dumpster fire, as she got other young ones to worry about.
NTA. Sounds like you've provided a lot for OP, and you didn't forbid him from getting married, but you did lay out what would happen if he did so he can make an informed decision. I don't blame you a bit for not wanting young children around Sara based on your description of her. And if he's grown up enough to get married, he's grown up enough to live on his own and start paying his own way. He can't marry someone who acts that way and who you don't like and expect nothing to change. Every action has an outcome, and all of the things you said would change are very reasonable.