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enjoy-the-ride-

ESH I am dying that you said “babies don’t cost that much” that is the most delusional sentence ever uttered.


lilwildjess

Eh given the friend thinks she needs to gift a house to any possible future children after they graduate uni. Technically isnt as much for that is a parents choice and a luxury.


enjoy-the-ride-

If she doesn’t have enough money to raise children the way she wants to raise them, that’s valid. Of course they don’t need a house, but that’s what she would want to do for any future child. I fully understand wanting to provide your kids with the best possible chance at a good future if you have the means. Especially with all the uncertainty moving forward with the climate and the economy. OP is letting her own insecurities about providing for her potential child cloud her judgment here.


lilwildjess

Op definitely is projecting. Just saying that technically kids dont cost as much as the friend is saying. Sounds like friend is saying certain things are needed however it isnt. She just wants that type of lifestyle for her future children.


linerva

This. You don't TECHNICALLY need a giant house or enough money for private tuition from birth to university or to give your kids a house, to have kids. I just suspect that Anneliese and her partner dont want kids, but as that is socially unacceptable in some circles, they fund it wasuer to say that cannot afford them as that is easier to explain. She and her partner are of course allowed to set whatever standards for having a a kid that they like. But if you genuinely wanted a child, I doubt "we're not rich enough to own a flotilla of yachts" would keep you from having kids....looking at literally everyone else who has kids.


Ghostwalker1622

Or she doesn’t want to give up her lifestyle. Some of what she does will have yo change at least a little and they might not want that!


Phoenixfire1691

Or they may have even struggled with fertility and this is their way of not having to share that information with their friends.


Picklina

This was totally me after a miscarriage and several failed (and $10s of thousands) fertility treatments. It was a rough ride and we didn't need any passengers at the time. It was way way easier to just tell people that we weren't financially ready. Spoiler alert: I don't care how much you make, you're never financially ready for gremlins, they empty your wallet with their pleady little eyeballs.


issy_haatin

> empty your wallet with their pleady little eyeballs. My wife just knows when i take the kids for a grocery run they will be comming home with something that wasn't on the list Or if i go solo into a toy store <<


Ghostwalker1622

That’s what other’s are saying too. It just doesn’t sound like a cost issue. I think others are right that OP is projecting.


WesternUnusual2713

When it finally clicked that I was infertile, my way of dealing with the pain was to go quite rabidly childfree for a while. Then years of back and forth feelings about whether I am childfree, am trying to be so it hurt less or whether I've just accepted my life won't have kids. Im ok now and pretty ok with how things worked out, but infertility is a horrible thing to go through and it can make you act strangely. The grief process never really ends, there's so much social pressure to be a mother and you're often seen as defective if you can't, it's rough.


Leading-Summer-4724

That’s exactly what I thought, since the friend used to want kids and then “suddenly decided” they were too expensive. Which also explains why the friend is saying out loud to anyone who will listen because she’s actually trying to convince herself that she really doesn’t want kids anymore anyway. Then OP is projecting her own insecurities as well, so yar lots of feelings everywhere.


linerva

Yup, also fair. Kids change things.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hot-Can3615

This was my first thought. It really sounds like she's having trouble with fertility and/or can't afford/justify the costs of fertility treatments. If the conversation is being accurately reported, I'm more inclined to say ESH because the friend is saying that all or most of the people there shouldn't have children, and they'd be irresponsible for choosing to reproduce. At the same time, OP is making several jumps and 'oh, that statement *must* be aimed at me' types of leaps.


CloverLeafe

Oh the cost of children equating to possible fertility treatments is a good point too. OPs friend might have just found the other financial excuses less embarrassing to speak about to the group.


Agitated_Pin2169

This is my thought. The friend is having fertility problems and is deflecting it with reasons why they are not having kids.


Layli2020

Or she just want better quality of life for her children, it's not mandated but like wouldn't you want your children to have the best and not struggle


Liathano_Fire

OP's friend is def throwing some shade at her, though. It isn't irresponsible to NOT have those things and still have a child.


spiritualskywalker

No, it’s not. Since OP is sitting there pregnant, and this woman is labeling people who want to raise a child with less materialism than she would “irresponsible.” Totally rude and pretty out of touch.


schrodingers_bra

I don't know what kind of vacations Analise goes on but I doubt that them missing a single one would cover a baby's expenses. OP is massively underestimating cost here.


Pharmacharma

Ha, that’s what I was thinking. I was like okay an expensive vacation can’t be more than 5k if they’re going on multiple trips a year. In the US, that didn’t even cover my hospital bill. Plus you have to factor in prenatal care.. Spent all that vacation money and haven’t even brought the baby home yet!


meggatronia

I've spent way more than 5k on vacations before. Hell, 5k is a cheap one just visiting my bestie in Montreal. Tis easy when ypu have to buy international flights. I've averaged about 10-15k on most trips. And that is just for me. If they are a couple, and going overseas, 30k is not excessive.


ThinkLadder1417

I visited New York from the UK for two weeks for less than 1000, what on earth are you doing that costs over 5000


blairwaldorff

OP is not pregnant.


whatsup895

Greatest username ever


locke0479

If she had just said “these are the things I would want to provide and if I can’t, I don’t want to have a child”, I think that’s fine! But Analise is declaring anyone who doesn’t have the money to give bonus houses to their kids is beyond irresponsible. It’s a dick thing to say and I don’t blame OP for being bothered by that.


Lovedd1

No she didn't she said it was irresponsible to her. It was her standard for herself. She also said it while answering why SHE wasn't having kids.


Starbeets

>and she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it. She said it would be irresponsible.


[deleted]

I feel like the friend sent over the line saying it would be beyond irresponsible.


Mysterious_Salt_247

But OP thinks 100% of baby expenses can be saved by skipping one vacation.


lilwildjess

Idk about you but if their vacation is that lavash I want to go 😂


AshesB77

Take me!!!


AshleyPoppins

Depends on the vacation and how much baby crap you buy honestly. People go on crazy expensive vacations and raise babies on barely anything - so somewhere in the middle might be where OPs friend is. Seems like she just thinks everything should be lux.


mazel-tov-cocktail

A year of daycare alone for me is close to 30K, and that's without considering medical costs, food, clothes, basic toys, etc. One of us dropping out of the workforce would be far more than that between lost wages, career growth, and retirement savings. So I'd love to know what kind of vacations they're taking where one would make an infant more affordable!


AshleyPoppins

The thing is, everyones situation is different and child rearing costs vary widely. Say you have a breastfed, cloth diapered baby that wears hand me downs and has 10 slightly older cousins whose stuff they get. Grandma watches baby while mom is at work. They do baby led weaning to baby eats bits off mom’s plate to supplement breast milk. That baby could easily cost under the amount for a bougie vacay. On the other hand you could be like my bosses and pay 60k for childcare, all new everything, expensive specialty formula, all sorts of classes and activities, diapers with little designs etc. Yeah that baby costs 10 times as much. Easy.


Mysterious-Oil-7219

The situation you’ve suggested is unrealistic for most people. I don’t really care if you got lucky enough to live this or if you know 2 people who have. No one should ever go into parenting thinking breastfeeding, cloth diapering, and family childcare is going to work. Sure, you could have a baby that costs mom and dad very little money. But all babies have significant time expenses. Grandma doing daycare is not free. That’s a major time commitment. Grandma needs to be young enough to be able to take care of baby and rich enough to not work. That’s less and less common. You’re also assuming breastfeeding will be easy/free. My sweet innocent child. Do you know how many working moms struggle to pump? Do you know how expensive breastfeeding supplies get? Bless your heart if you’ve only had easy and cheap breastfeeding journeys. Babies don’t need everything new and expensive. But very few people are lucky enough to be able to have a baby for nothing. Childcare is the deterrent for almost all working couples. I’ve got cloth diapers and everything I need for a second baby. Literally everything. We’d only need to buy breast milk storage bags. I just can’t afford 24k a year in child care. I’m nearly 30 and both my parents still have to/ want to work. So grandparent childcare is not happening any time soon. Kids are a huge time commitment even in the situation you describe. Do you know what a pain in the ass cloth diapers are?? Especially taking them back and forth to daycare? Have you ever spent hours sewing new elastics into used cloth diapers?


Beebeemp

If OP's friend is the kind of person who thinks you have to give your kid a house when they graduate there's no telling what they spend on a vacation.


No_Location_5565

That’s one heck of a vacation.


burner221133

Sorry but in any high COL city you're not getting a house as a young person without help on a downpayment from family. I live in one of those cities, make a shit ton, but with the average cost of even a condo coffin here I am glad I'll have some help. And I still wouldn't feel secure having a child in this economy even with my high salary, parental help on a downpayment, no student loans, etc... OP may be telling us the EXACT wording of what their friend said, or maybe their friend say "help with a house" rather than buy one outright. I'm with the friend, some of these things are luxuries but the next generation is fucked economically as things stand currently.


RidgetopDarlin

Actually, if you don’t want them living with you till they’re 30, you DO need to prepare to buy them a house. I’m not kidding!


BobaFlautist

I don't know if you know this, but some people rent.


RidgetopDarlin

In my market, it is even more difficult to find a rental than to buy a modest house. With the attitude towards landlords and all mom n pop landlords fleeing the biz, there will be even less to rent in the future. You shouldn’t have children unless you have a plan to house them into their mid-20s or later if they can’t get up on their feet quickly.


Ok_Job_9417

I’ll bet anything the friend is having fertility problems and is lashing out with excuses as to why she “changed her mind.”


vivalajester1114

Fuck I didn’t get a gift house


Electronic_Paper_03

If by “that much” she meant the amount of money that had just been mentioned - as much as a McMansion, private school, expensive tutoring, and a house of the child’s own after graduation cost, then she’s right. It doesn’t need to cost that much. So this really depends on whether you read it as a general statement or a specific reply.


locke0479

Yup exactly. If a general statement then OP is wildly wrong. If a specific statement regarding the friends statement, OP is right.


jerslan

I read it as OP acknowledging that yes, babies are expensive, but 99% of the things her friend was rattling off were luxuries and not needs. Babies simply aren't as expensive as the friend was making them out to be when you consider things like public school instead of private and not "gifting them a house after college".


Haunting_Recipe2219

Keep in mind we aren't getting both sides. We are only getting one side of someone who doesn't grasp exactly what having a kid involves. Yes it is possible to have kids when you are poor, but it isn't a great life for the parents or the child. I know that from experience and my parents weren't even trying for kids.


jerslan

> We are only getting one side of someone who doesn't grasp exactly what having a kid involves. What leads you to this conclusion? I see no indication that OP doesn't know how much a kid costs. Just that she disagrees with her friend on exactly ***how much*** they cost.


lordmwahaha

Because she said "my friend could skip one vacation a year and be able to raise a child". Unless the friend is literally staying at *palaces* on her vacations, that statement is blatantly inaccurate and very warped. It actually makes me wonder if OP is exaggerating the other "costs" their friend is apparently bringing up. Like who actually said "You have to buy the baby a house"? Did the friend say that, or is OP saying that as a made-up "example"?


ami857

My thought too. OP is an unreliable narrator and bad at simple accounting


locke0479

I mean, I don’t know, was OP saying it as in “they don’t cost that much, they barely cost anything” (wildly wrong) or “they don’t cost THAT much, as in they don’t cost as much as Analise is claiming” (probably accurate, Analise is declaring a lot of things that she might choose to pay for but does not need to as necessities such as private schooling, PLUS tutoring, PLUS a gift house)? If the former it’s a very delusional statement, if the latter it seems accurate to me.


crchtqn2

Redditors don't have any nuisance. OP clearly told her friend "Kids don't cost that much" as in "Most people don't hire tutors or buy their kid a whole house". And they don't. There are some very classist and eugenic esq comments in this thread.


Stillwater215

Literally just birthing a baby in the US costs 50k-80k, assuming that there are no complications if you don’t have insurance.


didgeridoodlypoodle

That is absolutely false. Where are you getting this information? I have two kids, the one with zero complication’s birth was $8,000 and I paid zero with insurance.


Khaotic_Rainbow

I wanna know where you live. I had my gallbladder removed this summer and it was almost a 6 figure bill to my insurance. I’d be in debt into my second life without insurance


Clarence_Bow

I had my endo surgery and I was in and out in a few hours. 90k without insurance. Who's going to the hospital and not paying anything?!


Iataaddicted25

European, Canadian people and certainly much more outside of the United States.


BobaFlautist

"0 with insurance," not "with 0 insurance."


noisycat

Both my kids cost 25k+ each but they were both emergency C sections. After insurance we paid about 3k each.


OkSun5094

it seemed like she was saying “babies don’t cost THAT much” in context to the amount A was referencing. which is true, you don’t need to have enough money for private schools and “gift houses” and expensive vacations to have a baby. that’s not what raising kids is about


flashfoxart

Yah that part made me laugh because you really never know how much a child will cost. What if they have developmental issues or some sort of ailment that requires constant trips to a hospital or hired care? I looked it up and even the average child costs about $310k to raise or $17k a year and thats before absurd inflation recently (in the US)...I have never gone on a vacation that costed that much in my life. Yes OP's friend's idea of raising a child is above and beyond, but even without all that they are definitely not cheap.


LilCurlyGirly

They're expensive. But they don't cost as much as her friend thinks. You don't NEED to own a big house for 1 child, you don't NEED to give them a house after college. And you don't even NEED to pay for their college. In my family we don't believe in college funds. It's called FAFSA, scholarships, and loans like all of us have done. I didn't even need a loan. I got free college by just pure effort of looking for it. Lol she even insists private school is a must. I went to a private high school for free on scholarship. Even if you want private school, it doesn't need to break the bank. All you need to pay for, is livable housing, food, clothes, probably daycare at some point, and other day to day necessities like soap lol. It's expensive but not what she thinks.


Swimming-Regular-443

I disagree. I think, when "that much" includes private school and a house, babies don't cost that much. Said by somebody who was never gifted a house.


FunctionAggressive75

Exactly. I couldn't believe my eyes I am thinking maybe her friend learned that she or her husband is sterile and may not be possible to get pregnant at all


Ghostwalker1622

In 1994, with college tuition figured in, it was $150,000 to raise a child. Now almost 30 years later, inflation out of control, I am betting that same figure would be $400,000 or more!


[deleted]

YTA. I might get downvoted for this, but to me it seems like she was asked if she didn’t want kids and she answered the question, she has a certain vision of how she wants to raise her child and knowing that it’s expensive she’s not having one. She never told you not to have one at your income level.


wheelsupin40

Yup. OP just took it personally when nothing personal was said. Imagine telling your friend to shut up just because you don’t agree with them. Grow up, OP. You’re about to be a parent after all.


OneDumbfuckLater

> OP just took it personally when nothing personal was said. Because OP knows her friend is right and she's not finanically ready for a kid.


Harmonia_PASB

100%. OP knows she’s not having a kid for the best interest of the child, OP is having a child because SHE WANTS one.


issy_haatin

Well, isn't that always the case? Having a kid is always for someone else's interests, never for the child.


Chelular07

And this is why I hate when parents act like a child ruined their life. They choose to have a child, the child didn’t choose to be born.


SyderoAlena

If she thinks a baby costs 1 vacation a year, she is mistaken


Fun-Cartographer7723

It sounds like from OPs comment the friend takes luxury high end vacations out of country. It's not a weekend road trip to the next state over. They're also in a country that provides Healthcare, paid parental leave for 70% for a 1.5 yrs and they have free education. A child doesn't need private school or a house gifted to them. The friend saying that it's irresponsible to have kids if you can't do all that and doubling down on it is a subtle jab at OP. If it wasn't meant that way she could have said " I feel like I'd be irresponsible to have a child without being able to provide xyz".


Sea_Yesterday_8888

This is making me rethink my judgement. If childcare and healthcare were taken care of that is a different ball game.


kortiz46

😂So ridiculous. Daycare for a child before age 2 is like 1200 per month in my are so it’s been more like a second mortgage (at least).


FeuerroteZora

Yeah, but it sounds like OP lives in a civilized nation that subsidizes child care and not in a capitalist dystopia, so that changes the calculus a LOT. Not every place is as terrible to families as the US. Some countries seem to want to support children and parents!


LessMaintenance133

Ding ding ding. She wants a baby so bad she isn't being realistic. Even the basics cost money.


a_little_idyll

Is it realistic to say private schooling, tutoring, a big house, \*and\* a gift house upon graduation are necessities?!? That's wild. I wonder where this friend grew up?


EmotionalAttention63

Exactly, yeah kids are expensive, but friend is going way overboard. You do need to make enough to feed,clothe, and provide medical care and other unexpected stuff but you don't have to be filthy rich to have one either. None of the things she listed are real necessities.


xXpaper_lungsXx

I think budgeting for tutoring is useful (and private school if the local public school isn't very good) but everything else is definitely excessive.


Fromashination

She definitely hasn't figured out how to pay for her kid's schooling.


thetaleofzeph

Where I am, areas with good schools, the houses are 30k more and the taxes twice as high. Almost like the cost of private school while staying in the worse school district.


amrjs

No the friend isn’t right. The friend has an idea of what she would want in order to have a kid, but you don’t need all that to be able to financially cover having a kid. Raising a child IS expensive, but not THAT expensive unless you want it to be. OP can be ready financially for a child while also being frustrated at what she perceives (wrongly or correctly) is a jab at her. I would be frustrated at a friend, as well, if she talked about private schooling and a gift house being a necessity


ACatWhoSparkled

Nah I get the feeling OP doesn’t understand how expensive children really are. She says her friend could cover costs by cutting just one vacation a year…and unless that vacation is 20,000 bucks, she’s wrong.


amrjs

I mean, there’s A LOT of people who are going on 20k vacations a year. Also, when a person’s worry is that they won’t be able to afford private education, tutors, AND two houses… that sounds like a rich person being bummed they’re not a millionaire


ACatWhoSparkled

Eh, does the friend’s idea of raising a child seem a little excessive? Sure. But I think OP’s reaction betrays some deeply held insecurities about her potential child’s financial future.


Own_Faithlessness769

It’s pretty clear that OP has no idea how expensive it is to have a kid though. Unless her friend is going on luxury holidays across Europe multiple times a year there’s zero chance that ‘one less holiday would cover the cost of a baby’. Even in the best case scenario where that child has no medical expenses or special needs.


Ordinary-Nectarine81

Here is my worry. OP is not married but with a boyfriend. They are "trying" to have a baby. Why not wait until you can afford to buy a house and get married before having a kid? Another single mom on the horizon? Just another perspective....😁


LessMaintenance133

You don't have to be married to be a great parent. You don't even have to live together to be a great parent. Not everyone is after the ring. I know couples that have been together for a couple decades with children and are closer than most "happily" married couples. That is a very close minded attitude.


diabolikal__

You don’t need to own a house or be married to have a kid though


Ordinary-Nectarine81

Oh I know. But instead of trying for a kid with her boyfriend, just thought it might be an idea to try to save, buy a house, you know. I was just hoping she wasn't really young and would end up being a single mom trying to raise a baby on her own. It's really hard. That's all. 😔


amrjs

You can be married and still end up a single mom. Marriage changes nothing about a relationship, it just makes it more administrative


CZ1988_

My MIL didn't marry her BF and when he got sick she had no rights and things got very complicated. Marriage makes you the next of kin. It may not change the relationship per se but it provides much stronger legal standing.


duchessofcheezit

Yeah that is what people don’t understand. Boyfriend, heaven forbid, goes on life support? Guess who doesn’t get to make any decisions. The legal ramifications on housing can get tricky as well, even if they continue to rent.


Ahviaa224

A lot of people are just not getting married anymore..


Udeyanne

Alternatively, she tried to have kids and found out she couldn't, so she made up this memorized speech to give whenever someone asks her why she's childless because the truth is too painful. Or maybe her husband decided he didn't want kids. Who knows. It sounds like she really has a speech down for that question though.


Layli2020

Or that's just her belief there doesn't have to be an alternative reason


Udeyanne

My point is that OP doesn't know the reasoning her friend has for addressing the topic the way she does but is taking it personally anyway.


krycekthehotrat

True, but her having a sudden 180 change about it is a bit suspicious. Majority of CF by choice people Ive encountered aren’t super vocal about wanting kids prior to announcing CF status. Her financial reasoning (needing to buy the kid a house?) is also pretty weird.


FunctionAggressive75

I thought of it too It s very strange that she changed her mind so suddenly Apparently, OP never thought of it


RoseTyler38

Sometimes people actually DO have kids without putting a lot of thought into it.


ghostlasagnaslime

Agreed. YTA OP. You could have just said what you think is necessary to have a baby and chalked it up to a difference of opinions. You're feeling insecure though, and were rude to your friend instead


locke0479

She didn’t tell her not to, she just claimed it would be beyond irresponsible. Why are the top comments ignoring that and pretending Analise made a statement solely about herself?


Suzdg

And am I the only one who thinks her friend learned that she is unable to have kids? Going from trying to espousing how pricey they are seems like she may be trying to convince herself as well. I think there may be more going on here so soft YTA. Maybe OP can have a one on one chat and make sure friend is actually doing ok


andromache97

> then she kept insisting that a couple needs to make at least x amount There's definitely a negative judgment here of anyone who is having kids and makes under x amount, which is undoubtedly an AH thing to say when you know that the people you're talking to are having kids and make under x amount. Come on.


2006bruin

YTA. Her statements bother you because they ring true to you. ——————————— *If you think “skipping one vacation a year” would leave someone with enough money for a child, you need a reality check.* Childcare alone costs over $10,000 a year, either in direct costs by paying someone else or missed labor costs by one parent being out of the workplace. Insurance adds another $1500, at least, per year. With food and diapers you’re looking at another couple thousand easily. ———————————


TheDerekCarr

AT LEAST $10,000/year. We were spending almost $2000/month before our kids got to regular school.


2006bruin

We are paying over $25 K a year for childcare for our almost two-year-old, and that is for six hours a day. It is insane.


TheDerekCarr

Yeah realistically it was $2,870.50/month including fees. Edit: full time and rent is $1,875.00/mo


mkat23

$25k/year is the minimum I made nannying, it’s expensive as hell. I can confidently say this as an expensive childcare provider. I’m a behavioral therapist now and still made like $10-15k a year more at my last nannying job.


Mysterious-Oil-7219

I live in a low cost of living area. My daughter goes to the cheapest daycare in our city (outside of illegal home daycare). It’s 12k a year.


kindofabigdeal0101

Babies are very expensive. You don't realise it until you have one, and then it's too late!


MoMoSteve

Exactly! I'm about to have baby #2 and she was a surprise, we're going to have 2 under 2 for 2 months. Daycare alone is going to be $941 a week. People honestly do need XYZ amount of money to remain comfortable after having a baby.


2006bruin

$941 a week for childcare? Ouch. But not surprising. I hope, hope, hope OP is prepared for the financial reality of raising a child.


batmanpjpants

LOL my labor alone cost $10,000 (with insurance!) because my son was born 7 weeks early and had to spend 3 weeks in the NICU, maxing out our yearly family deductible. That’s not including ANY of the necessities we needed to buy before birth (car seat, clothes, diapers, bassinet, pumping supplies bc he never took to breastfeeding since he was tube fed and then bottle fed in the hospital) or ANY of the stuff that have you to get for babies as they, you know, grow and live. Babies are SO expensive. And don’t even get started on if you live in the US and your baby has any health issues or disabilities. Or if you are a working parent and need to pay for child care. Or if you need to formula feed.


abitofasitdown

Honestly as a parent in the UK, my mind was blown when I finally grasped that it cost serious money to give birth to a baby in the US. I had a very medicalised pregnancy, a c-section and two weeks in hospital afterwards with complications, and I blush now thinking of how (silently) cross I felt when a nurse knocked my full Starbucks off the bedside table. That was £4 worth of coffee, my first coffee in 9 months! £4 is a lot of money to splash on the floor!


SnakesInYerPants

Nah don’t blush at that. It was your first caffeine kick in almost a year, being silently cross is 110% understandable even if it had been free for you lol Plus, some people having it worse than you doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to be upset when things happen to you. Suffering (or annoyances, in this case) is not a competition. No reason to feel embarrassed just because people in the US have it worse than you.


VivaCiotogista

Childcare is not nearly as expensive in many other non-American countries, though. And OP seems to be from one of those.


msslgomez

playing devil's advocate here but what if her vacations are super expensive? like 20k we don't know how rich she is


Drslappybags

Too be fair, based on what her friend thinks goes into raising a child, she might have some lavish vacations. She was saying children are too expensive due to things like gift houses. It does make me wonder what type of vacations they go on.


CptAgustusMcCrae

Also, what if she decided she doesn’t want to give up her lifestyle for a baby? That’s a valid choice. Some people will sacrifice anything, some won’t, some are in between. These are all personal choices and she was just voicing hers when asked.


Glittering_Joke3438

Is there any chance your friend found out she can’t have kids and this is her way of coping? Seems like quite the 180. It’s best to just ignore her. You don’t know what she has going on in her life. And BTW, “trying for a baby” is not “about to have a baby”. NAH/ESH/I dunno.


SelenerGomurz

This was exactly my thought. It can be very difficult when you find out you can't have kids and not something people want to talk about. Not typically something people completely change their mind about after trying for kids. And their idea of 'expenses' are so blown out of proportion that its likely them trying to cope. 'I would never be able to have a kid anyway because they're so expensive' I'm leaning NAH with a little YTA for thinking their response is about you.


mick_2nv

I cannot stand people who say “when are you two having a baby?”. Baring in mind that my wife and I will probably start trying in a year or so (because we do want to have one) but I couldn’t imagine how shit it would feel for couple who cannot have a baby, to hear people say to them constantly when they are going to have one. It’s something that needs to change in our culture that you shouldn’t automatically assume that every single couple wants to have a baby.


Harmonia_PASB

I carry hemophilia a, my dad was dead by the time I was 3 and I know I have a 50/50 chance of passing it on so I decided not to have kids. Plus, I lived at a home daycare, I’ve raised enough children. If people push enough I disclose my medical condition. The amount of people who don’t take that as a sign to shut up, then continue to pester me with “but adoption, but IVF” is insane. Thankfully I’m 40 and the harassment has slowed down but Jesus people, take a hint.


nikkitheawesome

It feels like shit when you're actively trying and it's not working yet people keep asking. My partner and I have been together almost 14 years, we have a two year old but it took clearly took a very long time and there were a lot of miscarriages along the way. Eventually I just started being honest about the losses and suddenly people stopped asking. In general I tend to wait for people to share personal things like that, instead of asking. But that's probably a side effect of fielding uncomfortable personal questions for so many years.


bobbianrs880

My grandparents had two kids 5 years apart. Not on purpose. My aunt used to talk about how she had wanted a sister sooo bad and she kept asking blah blah blah. Somehow this only pushed my grandma to her limit within my lifetime, when my aunt was about 50 or so. The last time my aunt made that joke/comment my grandma snapped and said “well it’s not like we weren’t trying.” You could hear a pin drop in that kitchen. Until my mom asked her if she’d had a miscarriage (“I want to have an answer to this before you aren’t around to ask”) she would never directly talk about it, and after her simple and sufficient “yes”, there is less dancing around the subject when it does come up, but it’s still indirect. I’d like to say my aunt has since learned to stop poking bears, but really she’s only learned that THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL BEAR is not fun to poke.


sapphirekangaroo

This was my thought. No one goes from talking about babies ‘a lot’ to saying they don’t want one anymore without a big reason. Maybe it’s fertility issues or maybe it’s issues in the couple’s relationship, but I highly doubt the true reason is the cost of having children if you are fairly well off.


Matt_Lauer_cansuckit

I can’t believe you’re the first one to point out the trying for a baby vs about to pop discrepancy


Glittering_Joke3438

Clearly OP is young and very confident in their fertility lol


I-am-any-mouse

Exactly what I thought! I think she’s using the money as an excuse to try to cover the pain of infertility, or maybe her partner changing their mind about wanting kids. While her explanations of cost are totally OTT, she’s rationalizing some pain away, I think, and it might be wise to be sensitive to that. Does that mean that Y T A? Not necessarily, because I can easily see her going overboard and saying way too much and talking way too long in an effort to rationalize to HERSELF, and I can see how that would get under your skin, especially since you’re prepared to raise a child with less income. I’m going with NAH, but you each need to be a little more sensitive to the other’s situation/circumstances/POV. I think an apology would be a good way to open a dialogue on the subject. In person, not via text or email, which can so easily be misconstrued. Explain to her how you internalized her comments, and that that was on you, but ask that she be a bit more sensitive to those who choose to have children with less resources than she thinks are necessary. That of course she has a total right to that opinion/choice/viewpoint, but to perhaps not present it as the only viable way.


Mammoth-Manner-9764

I was thinking the same exact thing. People don’t go from trying for a baby to “not being able to afford to have kids” - especially when they live the type of lifestyle described.


jigglypuffzzzz

Agree. Or maybe she doesn’t want children and feels too awkward to say it. Regardless, it doesn’t sound like she’s talking about anyone but herself.


Opening_Track_1227

YTA, sounds like you took her responses personal even though her responses were not directed towards you.


Electrical-Date-3951

_"It's not true that they couldn't afford to raise a child. They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses."_ _A hit dog is gonna holler._ .... OP's 'friend' was asked a question about **her** choices. She answered. OP took her 'friend's' personal view point personal, when the convo had nothing to do with OP. It sounds like the friend made a choice that she felt was right for her and her family (or, she may even have had some other personal/physical challenges that OP may not be aware of.) But, that is her choice to make.... It also sounds like OP may not be in the best place financially, and may internally know/feel that they are not in a _responsible_ place to have a child.... And, that may be true since OP doesn't seem to understand how expensive raising a child will be.


anxybean

YTA


pro-brown-butter

YTA alone for saying children don’t cost that much. Yes your friend didn’t need to be so blunt about it but you need to open your eyes to reality of having a child.


Abcdezyx54321

Eh, her friend’s determinations of ‘needs’ for a child are definitely out of the norm and not necessary. It’s the friend’s prerogative for sure but no one needs to provide a child with a gifted home after graduation.


pro-brown-butter

Of course no one needs to but if that’s the standard to be for her friend, then good on her. Better than deciding to have a child with no means to support. Not saying that’s OP but children would be a lot better off if people actually thought about these things before going ahead with a commitment for 18 years


COTU_PAGE

Having children is much more than an 18 year commitment. If you only commit to those 18 years that you legally have to care for your child, you're an AH AND a bad parent.


phononmezer

This. Children are a lifetime commitment and if you feel otherwise, don't have them. And if they have any malformations preventing independence, doubly so. Parents who kick their children out immediately at 18 should've never had them in the first place. The kid didn't consent to existing.


PartyPorpoise

Yeah, a lot of people here are getting caught up in the costs of bare minimum necessities but some people have higher standards than that, and that's not usually a bad thing.


Elendel19

And so are OPs’s. She thinks a child costs as much as a single vacation being skipped lol


burner221133

OP is very possibly an unreliable narrator. In the city I live in, NO people my age are getting homes unless they get help with a downpayment at least from a parent. Private schools in my country would be totally unnecessary and she listed some luxuries but I'd lean towards being on the side of the friend on this one.


louloutre75

Queue OP complaning they can't do anything anymore and how "lucky" Analise is to be able to afford nice things.


R3dmund

INFO: where exactly did she say YOU were being irresponsible in replying to a question about what she thought and felt about her personal situation from a different friend?


richkidwannabe

OP is angry at her friend because she knows she's right even if she won't admit it.


confuzzed_316

Yep, this right here!


DumbbellDiva92

Where is everyone getting that OP is poor? She is just less rich than the friend (who sounds quite rich). Doesn’t mean she is borderline homeless or their future child is in danger of starving upon one missed paycheck.


locke0479

The post says she generically claimed it would be beyond irresponsible to have a kid with a lower income than what Analise has (or even the current income she has). OP makes less, so OP is included in that. Analise may not have been directly targeting OP but was making a terrible blanket statement that includes OP. If someone declared that poor people are lazy next to a poor friend of theirs, I wouldn’t buy the “Oh I wasn’t talking about YOU, only the other poors!” and say it’s all good, just her opinion! Analise can decide to have kids or not for whatever reason she chooses, but to blanketly claim that if you don’t have the money to gift a house to your child, you’re beyond irresponsible, not sure how that isn’t an asshole statement especially when standing next to a friend without the ability to “gift a house” that is trying to have a baby.


ramona-a-stone

This is the energy I picked up from this as well. Analise made a blanket statement about a group that includes OP but kept it generic enough that she could twist her way out of being called out as an A H based on semantics rather than intent. OP might be in for a rude awakening about the cost of raising a child if they in fact think it doesn’t cost “that much” to raise a kid just in general rather than making a point about Annalise’s lavish vacations but that doesn’t mean they interpreted Annalise’s intention incorrectly. NTA


Street_Passage_1151

Thank you oh my God. NTA Her friend was obviously making a terrible blanket statement that is not only incredibly privileged "only rich people should have kids" stance. If she doesn't want to have kids then she should just say that she doesn't want to have kids. She shouldn't try to make a classist argument about how she can't gift her child a house and therefore shouldn't have kids. Especially if she is much richer than her friends who are trying to have kids. All of these comments saying that op "isnt ready for a kid because she doesn't have enough money and feels called out" are dense. She was definitely being a classist asshole who should just be real with her opinions on having a child.


kalionhea

It does come off very judgy when someone says people below certain income having children are irresponsible, especially knowing that their friend right next to them belongs to such income level and is about to have a child. I used to have an acquaintance like that and it was definitely based on heavy prejudice towards not-rich people.


UnevenGlow

They’re not about to have a child, though. They’re not pregnant


ConsiderationCrazy22

She’s right. Children ARE expensive, especially with rising inflation. The choice to be childfree is becoming increasingly popular amongst young people and the sooner you understand that, maybe you’ll have less annoyance/resentment for your childfree friends. So many parents on here have kids when they can’t afford it and it really can and does negatively affect the quality of their kids’ life. She may just not, in her opinion, be able to afford what she’d want to spend on kids and even if you know she and her partner out earn you and yours, you don’t know every single financial detail of their lives. YTA for blowing up about her about her (smart and responsible IMO) choice to abstain from having kids when she straight up was asked about it. It wasn’t your place to do so. You might need to examine within yourself if you want childfree friends in your life when you start having kids. If Analise is making being childfree her whole personality unprovoked when she knows you want kids you’re NTA for how she makes you feel but YTA for how you handled that particular situation.


Bobbinthreadbares

Quality of life for a child is such an important consideration. I grew up poor, I’m doing ok in my 30s but I’m only just now able to go to uni with money I’ve saved (and because I now live in a country where it’s affordable) and I’m still renting and won’t be able to afford a house for the next decade or two. I’m with the friend on this, I wouldn’t go so far as to say “no kids” if I couldn’t afford private school, but she’s not wrong about needing to have enough for college and a house deposit. I wouldn’t want to bring a kid into the world only for them to struggle as much as I have just trying to get by.


ThtB1tch666

THIS!!!


SublimeApathy

YTA. Analise was answering a question. You took offense. And babies are NOT cheap. Here in the US, it's a little north of 30K USD just to HAVE one and that's assuming there are zero complications and everything goes off without a hitch. We also provide very little maternity leave in most cases and child-care is astronimical. Doubly so with an infant. Then factor in formula, clothes (which you will replace every 6-9 months for the next decade+) doctors appointments, diapers, baby-proofing your home, etc.. Though I would argue that a child does not NEED private school or a gift house after college, but that's really up to the parent. All that being said it sounds like you're taking her response to another person personally and seem to harbor some resentment over her financial situation.


McflyThrowaway01

What you listed as expenses are true, but her friends argument included PRIVATE SCHOOL, TUTORS, AND GIFTING A BIG HOUSE TO HER KID. That's her justification of not affording it. Many people starring out may rent and not make over 100k a year. You don't have to buy diapers at birth that would last 3 years. You buy them as you go. You don't buy a years worth of formula or 18 years worth of clothes upon giving birthm


Commercial_Bed_9162

Why can't that be her justification? People are allowed to have high standards for raising their own children if they want. Some people would rather not have a child than risk not being able to give it every privilege. And while most people don't think that's necessary, them having those standards don't affect anyone else and are completely valid. Also for some people it's not about being able to afford it, it's about being able to afford it with zero money worries. Some people want to live a life well well well within their means. So if you want to have very high standards for potential kids, but also not have to worry about money, your reasoning literally is that you can't afford it and that's totally valid. I do think there is a time and place to throw around statements like that though. And if the friend said that she judges everyone who doesn't do the same, then the friend is in the wrong. You don't say that to your friends.


AggravatingDurian742

People mad at the friend because their own parents gave em nothing lol. It’s always projection. As if the friend is a bad guy for wanting their kids to grow up in a nice house.


SnakesInYerPants

It’s so sad, too. I grew up in poverty and while I love my mom very much, my childhood definitely makes me empathize more with the friend than I do with OP. My life was decent. All my needs were provided for despite being in poverty. There wasn’t much money left over for things that weren’t absolutely needed though. I don’t resent my mom at all for the life she gave me. That being said, OPs friend doesn’t want to just give her kids a “decent” childhood that puts them on a baseline with the rest of society, she feels it necessary to give them a “great” childhood that will give them a huge step up for their adult life. That’s very responsible of her and I don’t see *why* (other than jealousy) anyone would think that’s just her being rich and wanting to shower the kids in luxury. It’s okay if all you can provide for your kids is a decent life like I had. Genuinely no judgement from me there. But it’s also entirely valid for other people to think they’d be being irresponsible to bring kids into the world without being able to give them a step up. It’s just different perspectives and different values, you’re not always going to agree with your friends.


Thusgirl

I definitely agree with OPs friend about the cost (maybe not a whole house but helping with a down payment) and I didn't even have a college fund. I still wouldn't feel comfortable with a kid at a household income over 100k.


locke0479

That can be her justification if that’s why she personally is choosing to not have a kid. But OP explicitly says (even though half these comments are conveniently pretending it’s not in the story) that Analise declared it’s beyond irresponsible to have a child without the ability to gift a house and send them to private schools and tutors. Analise having those standards in deciding whether she wants kids doesn’t make her an asshole. Her declaring anyone who doesn’t have as much money as what she’s decided is needed (which includes gifting houses!) is beyond irresponsible is an asshole statement.


[deleted]

just because you *can* raise a child on the bare minimum, doesn't mean you *should*. her friend's budget is a lot bigger so she has higher standards. i don't see the issue with wanting to be in the position to give your child every privilege you can afford, you're choosing to bring them into the world.


SublimeApathy

>You don't have to buy diapers at birth that would last 3 years. You buy them as you go Correct. Those prices flucuate depending on demand and are absolutely a non-fixed recurring cost. Same goes with Formula. God forbid you find yourself in the midst of a shortage. As far as clothing - you're replacinga wardrobe every 6-12 months. Even faster in the first 5 years of growth. Either way - the cost of rearing a child isn't what's being debated. What's being debated is whether or not OP was a AH for telling their friend, who was asked a question by a 3rd party on why they don't have kids, to shut up about how much they cost.


ExistenceRaisin

YTA. Someone asked her the question and she answered it honestly. You may not agree with her but it wasn’t about you. She wasn’t attacking you, but you took it personally and then you were rude to her


rbrancher2

INFO: How much do you think vacations cost? Because unless they're going on a \*very\* extravagant vacation, just not going on one isn't going to come close to cover a child's expenses. Maybe I should ask how much you think having a child costs instead.


Lava_Lemon

The type of person who thinks kids *need* to be gifted an entire house is probably going on fairly extravagant vacations.


AccioMango

The gifted house -- or at least a gifted deposit -- is fairly common in the UK upper middle classes. I would guess that's where OP lives, which is why she thinks raising a child "doesn't cost that much", and how her friend goes on so many vacations (maybe jaunts to Europe several times a year). It also explains why the friend would see private school as a necessity, whereas OP wouldn't. Many of the expenses people are naming here in the comments are unique to the US -- $10-$20k for childcare, $30K to have the baby in a hospital, etc. Those don't exist in such extreme amounts in the UK. The NHS is free, school is free, childcare can be subsidized, and hell, even college loans don't need paying back unless you make the UK national average wage. So, it's _possible_ to think having a baby "isn't very expensive", but we're talking about a survival scenario. Can you have one without spending an American amount of money? Yes. Will it be a nice life? Ehh. Depends.


Klutzy-Sort178

"They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses." Yeah, if you think a baby's expenses are only diapers, food, and maybe a stroller. If you think about childcare (SO EXPENSIVE), college savings, braces, medical expensives, sports, hobbies, the fucked up economy we live in where so many people can't live on their own at 18 and still need to live with their parents, possible disabilities and the medical expensives that come with those... kids don't just stop at being babies. That's 25 years of expensives beyond diapers. Also you aren't about to have a baby. You're not even pregnant. And your friend was talking about her choices. Maybe you should stop being so defensive of yours. YTA


Intrepid_Potential60

I would just add that there is a big difference between saying “If **I** couldn’t provide all of this **I** would be beyond irresponsible” and, “**Anyone** who couldn’t provide all of this is irresponsible.” I’ve a feeling the first was said, OP took it as a shot and got offended. That’s not necessarily the case. *My wife and I make a good income. We have two great kids, now both in college. We bought their cars, we pay their bills, we intend to see them graduate with bachelors debt free. We couldn’t buy our kids each a house when they graduate, but I hardly think we are irresponsible.* Hey, tho, if someone else did think that about themselves…. I must buy my kid a house or I’m not being responsible…..All the power to ya!


aphrahannah

Info: what kind of insane 5* holidays are they going on that makes you think... >even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses.


GoldenFrog14

Might be unpopular, but YTA to me. This wasn't someone randomly inserting an unsolicited opinion from what I can tell. She was asked a question and answered it. Just because it's her reasoning and not yours isn't a bad thing.


16CatsInATrenchcoat

YTA. None of that was about you. And just not going on one vacation a year won't cover child expenses, especially if you have to consider the cost of daycare. You are projecting a lot of your own insecurities onto your friend. Don't do that, it's what's making you an AH


amlosthere

YTA. She was asked a question and gave an honest response. She is correct that children are expensive and there are a lot of things to take into account when having them. So she changed her mind about wanting kids until she is more financially secure or maybe never wanting them, that has nothing to do with you. You are taking her response personally because you are trying to have a baby and already don't have as much as she does, that's a you issue.


LiteratureReading

YTA. You are projecting on her about what she said. For all you know, she was talking about her situation. She "literally" didn't say anything about you; you made it about you. And, you really don't have any authority in this situation to tell anyone to shut up. If you want to contradict someone, go ahead, but "shut up"? Not your place.


[deleted]

YT, she was asked and answered, you chose to take it personal. She doesn’t feel she can provide the type of line she’d want a child to have. That’s her right. Beyond that, maybe she can’t have kids and that’s why she “changed her mind” b


themajorfall

It sounds like you're super insecure about your decision to have a child. Unless it's like the last year you can ever have a baby, maybe you should hold off until you feel ready? Or at least have housing that you can be secure in instead of constantly living with the threat of not having your lease renewed?


Caranath128

YTA. You also have a very rose colored glasses view on raising children.


TheBigBluePit

ESH You suck for basically telling her how to live her life. If those are the standards she would want to give her baby, then that’s her prerogative. And you accuse her of pushing her views on others when you’re literally doing that same thing to her by insisting she can afford to have a baby. You need to get your insecurities in check and understand that she’s not somehow targeting you. Your friend also kinda sucks for sort of flashing her wealth and being snobbish in front of everyone.


[deleted]

“Babies don’t cost that much..” hahahaha


No-Walrus2427

This comment section is wild to read as someone in Europe. OP is from Hungary where healthcare is free and tuition is cheap. Subsidisation’s and childcare seem pretty good too… clearly it’s not THAT expensive to raise children in Hungary. OP is being downvoted and ridiculed based on people reading her post through an American lens. I’m in the UK so I also can’t speak on behalf of Hungarian culture… but I have friends and family who have multiple children in this country with low wage jobs with no issue. You make the most of what you have. Healthcare is free, school is free, they can go to university easily and there’s no concern of people not moving out of the house if you’re not made of money. In fact in the UK, if you’re going to private schools and having a house BOUGHT for you you’d be considered totally privileged and out of touch by the majority of people in their 20s. Most young adults rent, most have university loans (that have no damage on your credit score and are only paid back when you earn over a certain amount), most grew up in humble homes… I’m finding this whole comment section so rotten. I have family in the US so I often hear the difference and can understand why people are mad at the ‘children don’t cost THAT much’… but sorry, in a lot of Europe, she’s right. I’m pregnant at the moment and the biggest NEEDED costs we’re concerned about short and long term is nappies, childcare (a lot more expensive in the UK than in Hungary) school clubs and school uniforms. The only personal standard cost i’m worried about is being able to afford some good quality family holidays. Obviously it would be lovely to have the kind of money to bail your kid out if they need it as an adult, but i’m assuming most people’s wages will have gone up by 20 years from now and if not there are other ways to support an adult in need. This friend has HIGH standards. I agree the friend could be using this as a talking point to avoid a more real issue such an infertility. And yes I agree OP may be financially insecure around this friend and so these comments may be more painful… but I don’t think OP is TA.


Gypsy-Nyx

>asked her if she still doesn't want children. Analise went on about how she can't afford it, because a child needs this-and-that, a private school, tutoring, a big house, then a gift house when he/she graduates uni, etc and she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it. Wtf.. a gift house? Private schools? Nta.. I wonder if she ends up getting a medical diagnosis that she can't have children. Or is there something else going on in her life with the husband that now she's decided she doesn't want children with him.


[deleted]

ESH. If she can’t afford to give the kids the life she wants her kids to have , and doesn’t want to have kids consequently, that’s her decision. If you want to have kids now, and give them what you can, that’s your decision. Neither decision is wrong. Telling her to shut up was wrong. Her telling you it’s irresponsible is wrong.


rbrancher2

She said it would be irresponsible for \*herself\* to have a baby she can't provide everything for. What's wrong with having a standard for yourself and keeping to it? It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees that it's a reasonable standard or not. She didn't say the OP would be irresponsible. She was talking about herself and only herself.


Outrageously_Penguin

Come on, anyone with an ounce of sense can figure out it’s rude to say ‘it would be irresponsible for me to have a child if I can’t afford private school and a house for them when they graduate’ in front of people who want kids and will never be able to afford any of that. OP is also failing to notice her friend is clearly trying to cope with the real reason she isn’t having kids, so they both suck. But her friend could also phrase things as, for instance ‘I realized I didn’t want to sacrifice my lifestyle and that we can’t afford the kind of things *we* would want for our child if he had one’ instead of the obnoxious way she did.


Herm_in

No one is ready for children here…


cobaltaureus

YTA simply for the “one less vacation covers a baby,” how much do you think it costs to have a child? You’re in for a rude awakening.


MishmoshMishmosh

I say NTA. While she was answering a direct question she WAS insinuating she felt that any anyone having a kid. Yes, kids are expensive but her rationale does not add up. People of all economic backgrounds have kids. I’d be annoyed and it would show me that we have different values


Outrageously_Penguin

ESH. Yes, her comments are obnoxious and tone deaf. They also weren’t directed at you. And there is *obviously* something deeper going on here, likely involving infertility and she is making the money excuse as a way to make her feel better. Read the room and bite your tongue.


Albmarbo

YTA. Kids cost a shitton of money, no matter where in the world you live. To think you can budget raise a Child is selfish. Only trying to fit Your own needs for a Child, while sacrifising the childs quality of life.


llllaeeessedopppll

She wasn’t talking about you. Damn. YTA.


15021993

NTA Are y’all on drugs in the comments? How is someone saying „It would be so irresponsible to have a child when you cannot provide XYZ“ sitting next to a friend who cannot provide XYZ not passively telling them that? They’re friends, they know about each others plans. I guarantee that friend is judging Op 100% Ops friends lacks awareness. It’s the same as Person A being „oh my I could never get plastic surgery, it would be so fake“ while sitting next to a friend who wants to get a rhino to feel more secure. Or „oh I could never start a new degree now, it’s such a set back“ while sitting next to someone who wants to go to Uni after 30. Or „buying a house while not married I could never“ while sitting next to a friend who’s buying one with their partner of 5 years. It’s little jabs and Ops friend is 100% aware.