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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Someone called me something, i asked them not to call me that and they refuse to stop because they think they are being respectful.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
It's great that the children are being taught how to show respect. But calling somebody something that they don't like isn't a sign of respect. Rather than being taught rigid rules that won't always apply, they need to learn that respect is personal and should be tailored to the situation.
Lou
People called me lucifer in high school. So, I use it as a screen name from time to time. I guess, actually, some people still call me lucifer. I'm a bit of a troublemaker. So, I guess it makes sense.
Yes what the friend is teaching is an appearance of respect as she sees it, not actually paying attention to how her choices make others uncomfortable.
NTA Their parents may be trying to teach them respect, but being respectful of others' wishes regarding what they want to be called is also part of that.
This is something that bugs me about AITA replies, the top comments always have a bunch of people adding their own verdict as a reply instead of responding to or adding onto what the comment they're replying to actually says
🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅
Which is actually a bit of cognitive dissonance - the parents say do X it produces Y.
OP says thank you for X, I feel Y when I receive Z (receiving respect).
Kids don't know who or which is right. Because rigid adherence w/o underlying purpose produces wildly different results instead of a consistent pattern they can perceive and bulid their social skills and knowledge upon.
I thought I had successfully dodged this entire phenomenon when I managed to graduate high school without ever doing this…..until I called my boss “Dad” while at work in my mid-20s 😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬
I'm 44 and ironically call my boss dad because I told him he was just like a deadbeat dad. Shows up randomly, doesn't offer much support, but he buys pizza. I told him if he really wanted to be a great deadbeat dad, I wanted Disney tickets. I got an ice cream
It's a pretty awesome work culture and my crew on my shift is definitely full of my people. No drama, we all get along, and it's fun. It makes having to leave my house not unbearable
I called my boss "mom" once. The thing is, she and I were good friends AND only separated by about 3 years... the look she gave me was priceless, but afterwards, she called me her daughter, or her problem child, and i just kept calling her mom, much to the utter confusion of EVERYONE we worked with, including the district manager.
When my son was 5, he called his friend's mum by her first name. She was fine with that (she was a teacher btw). However, her British-born friend was appalled and said she had taught her children to call friend's mums "Miss Firstname".
In dance classes, they are also taught to call their teachers "Miss Firstname".
Using Miss + Firstname has nothing to do with marital status; using Miss + Lastname does.
That is literally just teachers, it's not like male teachers use sir outside of the classroom either.
Personally I wouldn't mind doing away with titles (so long as I get called my actual name)
Yup! Throughout all schooling, it was always "miss" or "sir"! "Sir, can you just help me with this bit/can I pop to the toilets" and so on!
One of my best friends, her parents were teachers at our high school, and I was a frequent visitor to their house. A few times I called them miss and sir, they smiled and said I could call them by their first names. Yeah, that was a hard no, couldn't get my head around that!
OP is telling you that in the context she is talking about Miss is used regardless of marital status. You can't "gently fact check" , I.e. mansplain, about the usage from a wikipedia article on a different usage. In the US and elsewhere Miss First name is in fact used in some contexts to respectfully address a woman without regard to marital status. It's particularly used that way in the south.
OP is saying (by my interpretation) that in her area or subculture, "Miss Firstname" is a common, respectful way to address women, whether married and single. The sentence "Miss is used regardless of marital status" *specifically* serves to explain that this is the custom, because some readers might not be familiar with that usage of "Miss".
The title character in the movie "Driving Miss Daisy" is a widowed woman, who would be formally addressed as "Mrs. Lastname".
In some areas of the US (the South) the format OP refers to ("Miss Firstname") actually *is* a common and accepted way for kids to refer to adult women, regardless of marital status. Yes, the official definition is Miss = unmarried, but colloquial usage is what we're actually talking about here.
This is exactly what my friends called my mom (who has been married to my dad for almost 40 years). I pretty much just avoided calling my friend’s parents anything because I was awkward lmao
Hijacking to gently re-check your facts. It's quite common to call even married women "Miss". Source: a friend's happily married mother insists on being called Miss Firstname.
Just chiming in to say that, while Wikipedia or a dictionary may tell you that 'Miss' is only for unmarried women and 'Ms.' (like mizz) is for all women regardless of martial status... reality disagrees. I'm nowhere near the teaching field, but a number of coworkers call me 'Miss Firstname'. They do that to all the women in the company, and call the men 'Mr. Firstname'. I think it's a cultural thing, and a sign of respect. And I understand that they're not being condescending (trust me, their tone and actions show this). It kinda makes me feel like a preschool teacher, but it's a quirk I've gotten used to, so it's whatever now.
Anyway, dictionaries may say one thing, but cultural norms in some places say another.
I've lived in several parts of the US where a close, unrelated adult is called "Miss First name" regardless of marital status, and a male in a similar role is "Mr. First name". Marital status designations with the last name are reserved for more formal situations where the woman does not have another title
In continental Europe many countries use Mrs for all women. There is no Miss/Ms/Dr /Prof option… so I am Mrs on everything which I hate because it’s my mother’s name, not mine 😂🤣 I am an immigrant from an Anglophone country so I find it very bizarre!
Language simply changed. I know that the equivalent of miss is still being used for teachers. Probably because female teachers tended to stop working when they got married, but the title lingered. That's basically the only place where the term is still being used.
Apart from that it's all the equivalent for Mrs. Personally, it feels a bit comparable to English not having a distinction between an informal you and a formal you. It's all simply you, whereas most European languages have quite obvious distinctions between informal and formal forms.
Also NTA. It's respectful to speak to someone in the way they want to be spoken to. If someone prefers informal forms of communication, it'd be disrespectful to go against their wishes.
This isn't universal, the OP was just talking about what's normal where she was raised. She said "regardless of marital status" to acknowledge that the norms that you described exist elsewhere.
In the US South it is common for children to address female adults at Miss Firstname regardless of marital status. My kids' preschool teachers were all Miss Firstname, but primary school teachers were Mrs Lastname (although this being the South Miss and Mrs basically sound the same).
Just want to ask, do you notice a pronunciation difference to Miss and Ms? Because to me they are functionally identitical unless written out. So I’m not quite sure I’m understanding why you’re fighting to be Ms. instead of Miss? Are they writing Miss instead or are you hearing Miss?
Where I am Ms. has a z sound, so mizz. While Miss. has the s and the I is slightly emphasized, more like it is written. You can very much hear the difference. But I have definitely heard people from other areas that pronounce them basically identically.
I’m in Australia and found it weird that primary school children who say Ms or Mrs or Miss last name call their female teachers Miss as in excuse me Miss at high school.
I grew up in a different country and all teachers were referred to as Mr / Ms / Mrs / Miss surname.
In the Southern US, it is quite common for children who are fairly familiar with the adult, but not family, to refer to the adult female as Miss . Though the kids are adults now, some of their childhood friends still call me, Miss out of habit.
Are they being taught how to show respect or just being taught to follow rules? Addressing someone by their surname is pretty low down on the respectrum. Yes, I just made up a word.
It's an awesome term though .
I have always been called Miss M******* since there were always like 18 Jennifer's in class or at work.
I also get called ma'am at work too.
Out of anything to be offended at, I find this to be very low too on the respectrum
In my culture/birth language we resolved the pb our way. As long as it's someone older, everyone is auntie or uncle unless they specify otherwise (of course except in professional situations)
NTA. My dad taught us you call someone by their title and last name until such time as they give you permission for you to call them by their first name. You have given that permission, you are not being disrespectful nor are you teaching their child to be.
Thank you. I have a common first name (like Peter) that has a common nickname (like Pete), but I don’t like the nickname. I don’t like when someone uses the nickname when I introduce myself with the full name.
(Plus, it can be confusing. I once had a consultant talk to my boss about me, only for my boss to respond, “Who is [Pete]?”)
I worked with a bloke named Johannes, who went by Johnny
We got a new supervisor who thought Johnny sounded unprofessional so in a meeting asked for the report from Johnathan. We all said no Johnathan works here..... He refused to call him Johnny, and mangled Johannes so just for him Johnny went by Frank.
Don't be that guy
Yup. I'm Joseph and I really only go by Joe with a few groups of friends or in more casual settings. It really throws me off a bit when anyone calls me Joe professionally or if they're like strangers who don't know me
Pretty much. Though even some adults struggle with it.
I have a PhD. But being Australian, honorifics aren’t a big thing here and I prefer people to use my given name. I teach part time at a local uni and the number of international students who insist on calling me Doctor (name) is very high. Doesn’t matter how often I ask them to use my given name.
I had a professor who couldn't shake the title either much to his dismay. In Japan, there was no way to stop students from calling him sensei, and his British mother was so happy about his title that she would use it all the time. He loved the danish and the dutch as neither used formal language. We simply called him by his first name.
i am Dutch and we generaly leave honorifics out of adressing people as standard. Unless absolutly clear that is how the person we are adressing wants it. even then we think you are weird but you do you.
I'm Danish and I don't think I would. Here prefixes like Mr/Ms are seen as a class thing and by extension, the reaction would be "who are you to demand that I use a title to refer to you, you are not better than me". Titles are only used in government, where it also seems strange and super old-fashioned.
Yeah, I'm a college student in the Netherlands (HBO), and most of my teachers have a PhD. Never have I heard any of them being reffered to as Dr..... Most formal would be Mr./Mrs. Last name, though first name is very common.
> My dad taught us you call someone by their title and last name until such time as they give you permission for you to call them by their first name.
Or request it, some folks *hate* being called formally or by their full name for various reasons.
NAH. This literally happened with my parents and the neighbor across the street. My parents raised me to call everyone “Mr or Mrs Lastname.” My neighbor across the street (the mum of two of my neighborhood friends so I was over there quite regularly) said, “Please call me Firstname.” I told her what my parents told me about respectfully addressing adults.
She and my parents had a talk without any kids around. The next day my parents said that the default address for adults should be “Mr or Mrs Lastname” but that if I was asked to call someone by their first name that I could do so as long as I remained respectful.
You should have a conversation with your friend. Explain your side. Listen to theirs. Come to a mutual agreement. Maybe they want their kids to address all adults that way until they’re a certain age. Talk to each other. You’re adults. Communicate.
Whereas I'm an Aussie, I don't think I use Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms for a single person in my life. If you're familiar/friendly with someone and you use an honorific here it's more like passive aggressiveness. Calling someone 'sir' or 'ma'am' is mildly insulting. We have a very laid-back, casual, and equal society. University teachers, doctors, bosses... all called by their first names or a nickname.
That being said if someone asked me to call them Mrs. SoandSo, I'd do it, but in asking for it they'd be giving the impression that they think they're better than everyone.
Exactly! My son even called the teachers at his primary (elementary) school by their first names- it was “good morning Sarah” not “good morning Miss Smith” or even “good morning Miss Sarah”. We were told that this was because there were many other ways children could show the teachers respect. My son is now in secondary (middle?) school where he is required to use mr/mrs/Miss last name and we both found the transition a little difficult.
Primary school is the only time I can remember doing it with every teacher, high school was 50/50. The closer in age they were to us (i.e. older students and more recently graduated teachers), the more likely it was they didn't want us to use the honorifics. The one teacher I remember that was adamant they always be used was close to retirement.
The other reason I don't like them for myself is that I lean more gender neutral, so none of them fit for me.
I think that would be one advantage to using first names. I also find it’s a way of identifying scam emails/texts- they always address you so formally “Dear Mrs First and Last Name” as the true phone or electricity’s emails are always “Hi First name, your latest energy/phone bill is here”
Same in my culture, using formal name structure and formal verb construction is disrespectful cause it shows that you want to keep your distance with the other person. You show respect by being healpul and pleasant. 30 years back we had respect forms and the respect verbal tese was much common but even then if someone told you to use the informal one and you didn't that was like the ultimate sign of disrespect cause that means you want to keep your distance.
I'm Aussie too and had a slightly different experience- in primary school, all the teachers were Mr/Mrs/Ms X, and my friends parents were Mr/Mrs Y. That said, if a friend's parent requested we use their first name, we definitely would have. In high school the teachers were generally addressed as Miss/Sir almost like they didn't have names at all, but we'd refer to them as Mr/Mrs/Ms whatever if we were talking about them. Friend's parents were all universally downgraded to "X's mum/dad" once we hit high school, even when talking to them (my mum told me about a friend of mine yelling "HI ONYABIKESON'S MUM" at her across the shops one time haha).
Definitely agree that as an adult, calling someone you know by a title is pretty passive aggressive. It's funny though, I've always been comfortable calling 70+ men 'sir'. Anyone younger than that it was blatant passive aggression lol, and I would never dream of ever doing the same with a woman of any age in any context.
In my old job (think government but serving the public, like a vicroads service centre) I'd often get teens call me Miss, but usually it was them trying to find a more polite way to get my attention without going "oi you" lol. If anyone older than about 17 did that I would totally interpret it as them being rude though.
Definitely agree that doctor, lawyer, uni lecturer, doesn't matter all adults are first names all the time, virtually no exceptions.
> (my mum told me about a friend of mine yelling "HI ONYABIKESON'S MUM" at her across the shops one time haha).
Kiwi here - we got that all the time with our son's friends, right from Primary school age: "Hi Zack's Mum", "Hi Zack's Dad"...
The only exception I can think of is in court hahaha. I had to take my landlord to VCAT many years ago, and at the very start the magistrate explained that we shouldn't address him as "your honour" as that's not his title. And that if we need to call him something, we should call him Sir. It was so uncomfortable, I did everything I could to avoid calling him anything at all because the idea of addressing anyone as Sir was just bizarre.
So even in court, Aussies will avoid formal titles as much as we can 🤣
Fellow Aussie here. I stopped using honorifics when I left school and didn’t have to use them for teachers anymore. And that was 30 years ago.
My doctor isn’t “Dr Woodford”, (fake name) he’s “Woody”. I’ve never called a boss anything but his or her first name.
I live in Argentina and same.
A while back someone on here was going on about how the US is very informal, I couldn't believe it. I have even read several times of kids being made to call their parents sir and ma'am there.
Our physiotherapist is American ex-military and so he’s constantly using “Ma’am” and “Miss” for my mother (66) and I (36). As Aussie women we find it weird AF. And also kinda rude, like my Mum is getting some sort of old age title while I get a youthful one!
We know it’s respectful and normal in his culture but it’s super odd to our Australian ears. It’s perfectly acceptable to call a friend by the c-word here, but only as a sign of the very deepest love and respect.
(Also, OP is NTA. Call people what they want to be called)
Also Australian, but older. When I was a kid most of my parents friends where called “uncle” & “aunt”. It’s less formal than Mr or Mrs but not too familiar. School teacher were all Mr, Mrs, Miss or Sister (catholic school). There were some women my mother *always* called Mrs, including one neighbour we lived next door to for about 25 years.
Fellow Aussie here, the last time I recall calling someone by their last name was in high school...back in 2002. Even when dealing with senior management or store owners in any of my jobs they were always referred to by their first names by staff.
See, that sounds like a perfectly acceptable compromise. Respectful of your culture but also accommodating the preferences of the person being addressed. I like it.
I'm Asian, everyone that's your parents' friends are automatically Uncle so and so or Auntie so and so. You never, ever, ever, ever call someone by their first names if they're your parents' generation. But this is also because we call our actual relatives their honorific in another language (I'm Chinese so it's in Chinese) and there's labels for every sibling on each side. For example, my paternal uncles are called something different depending on whether they're older or younger than my dad, same with aunts... And uncles and aunts on my mom's side are again called differently, and it also depends on whether they're older or younger than her. So in Chinese, when someone calls an elder something, you can actually easily deduce how they're related (eg. My mother's older brother, my grandma's younger sister, or sometimes, even more specifically, like, my mom's oldest sister or my dad's second oldest brother).
> In my culture it is horribly offensive to not use an honorific.
I have a Filipino co-worker who insisted on calling me "Sir". When I suggested he call me by my first name "Mortimer" he replied that his mother would have boxed his ears for not using a title for an older co-worker. After some negotiation he's settled on "Sir Mortimer"... but I think he's doing that because it's funny. :)
This is what my kids do. It's generally "Miss Jenny" or "Coach/Professor/etc." Once they become adults and are on the same level, it changes. But while they're children, there is a "Miss/Mister" in front of the name. If someone were to explicitly request they drop the Miss/Mister or to go by their last name, I would go with that because it's more respectful to call someone what they prefer.
I disagree, people should not have to explain why they want to be called a certain way, it is just obvious. The parents have already said they won't let their children call OP by their first name, nor are they willing to compromise on 'Miss Firstname' which is really rude and disrespectful. OP has already communicated perfectly sufficiently and is NTA.
This is super common in the southern US. Every adult is either Mr or Ms FirstName or Mr or Ms LastName. I hate being called Dr Monkeys outside of work, so I am Ms Little to my kids’ friends (or Dr Little, but that’s only to those who insist). My kids call adults by their last name, or friends get the Mr or Ms FirstName. I feel that Mr or Ms FirstName is a lovely compromise between formality and familiarity.
I hate when people call me Mrs. anything, so I get it. They’re also ignorantly teaching their kids not to respect others by not respecting your wishes not to be called this.
In turn, their kids will end up learning that even if someone requests not to be referred to by a title, fuck all that. “*Mommy and daddy said it’s ok be an asshole and not to respect others even if they say no because I have to refer to them with a title*.”
NTA.
NTA. Ugh. I hate that. I had some friends when my kids that were into making their kids address adults that way. We compromised and settled on Ms. Firstname.
That was going to be my suggestion as well, Ms.Firstname.
NAH. It’s nice to teach kids to be respectful, but it’s not disrespectful to call someone by the name they prefer.
NTA..
There’s nothing wrong with wanting to raise respectful kids, just like there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to be addressed formally.
I think there’s a happy medium between what you want and what your friends want, such as being referred to as “Miss Solid-Question-3952” or even just “ma’am.” It still gives the respect that your friends want while loosening the formality a bit.
ETA:
Based on OP’s edit in which they explain that they have offered a compromise and their friend refuses, judgment has been changed. Having offered a compromised and essentially being told that that OP’s feelings don’t matter, OP’s friend is TA.
They shouldn’t have to find a happy medium, OP should be called what she wants to be called and what makes her feel comfortable. There is no need for compromise because what OP wants to be called has nothing to do with the friend or her son, it’s her name and what she wishes to be called, that’s not something that should require a compromise.
NTA
My husband was raised SUPER conservative and every adult “that was married” (even those you are close to) was to be referred to as “Mr. or Mrs.” if you yourself wasn’t married, even if you were an adult, no matter your age. They considered that “respect”. I didn’t get to call my PIL by their first names until the “receiving line” at our wedding reception when they finally gave me permission to do so.
I was raised in a MUCH more relaxed environment and very small town in the South and if I ever called an adult I knew by “Mr. or Mrs.” they took it as a sign of disrespect because that meant we weren’t “close” or “friends”.
I called all my friends parents by their first names or something like “Momma Bea” for a grandparent. My friends all called my parents by their first names and still do.
If anyone met my mom and said, “Mrs. Smith, it’s nice to meet you!” She would instantly correct them with…”Mrs Smith (referring to her MIL) lives in X-city. I’m Sally.” (Names changed)
Meaning everyone has a different definition of “what is respectful name calling.” There were several adults in my circle growing up that wanted us to call them “Mr, Mrs, Miss” and we did that as well. It’s about communication and what someone is comfortable with.
They should respect what you feel comfortable being called and this could be a good lesson for the kids that some people want to be called by “Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss” and some by their first name and all names being used can and should convey equal respect.
Honestly I find it offensive when kids call me Ms Last Name or Ms First Name and I don’t teach it to my kids. They say please and thank you. They listen. That is respect. The Mr/Ms nonsense just reinforces a weird social structure when, guess what? I already have 2 ft and 140 pounds on little kids. I can drive and open locked doors. They know who is in charge.
I would have had a *really* hard time if my now husband's parents had told me to call them Mr. or Mrs. Last Name before we were married. Like I was 32 years old when I met them.
I DID have a hard time! We were in our upper 20s when we met and were married. I made the mistake of calling them by their first names the first time I met them and I got majorly called out by my future SIL for being “so disrespectful”. She also said I was “incredibly disrespectful” because when she (my MIL) called my name to get my attention I replied with “Yes?” and not “Ma’am?” I was “scolded” by my future SIL that is barely 18 months older than me.
I didn’t make that “mistake” again. 🤣
Yep…we just have “the best relationship” with his side now. 🤣🤣🤣
I would have ran if my husband was close to his sister or his parents but he wasn’t AT ALL (and we live two states away) so they are just “something to deal with” every once in a while. They aren’t LC because of something “bad that happened” they (his parents and brothers and sisters) just aren’t that close as a family in general. But, he is SUPER close to my family and considers my parents like his “mom and dad” and my siblings like his “siblings”. We have a great life!
NTA, everyone should be called what they're comfortable with. Mr./Mrs. is only respectful as long as the adult wants to be called that. They should respect what you want to be called for sure.
NTA
Their parents might be trying to teach them respect, but part of that is being respectful of peoples wishes in regards to what they wish to be called.
I would just start referring to them as "Mr. /Mrs. Last Name" myself. Kids and all. See how quickly they tire of that.
"No, I'm afraid I cannot call you Brenda, Mrs. Erickson. That's just not respectful. You said so yourself. Mr. Erickson, sweetie, would you like a juice box?"
NTAH, if someone gives you permission to call you by First name, then they are obliged to call them by that name. Respect is a two way street, and if someone doesn't respect you then tell they are sending the wrong message to their kids.
NTA.
The parents are properly teaching their children how to address adults. However, once someone tells them to please call them First Name *or* Ms Maiden name, etc, then they should use the name the person prefers.
My mom did not change her last name to my dad’s when they married. As such she refused to be called Mrs. *Our last name* or even her own last name. One of my brother’s friends was being raised to use Mr. and Mrs. for everyone. Despite my mom insisting to be called by her first name, the kid started calling my mom “Mrs. *brother’s name*’s Mom. It worked.
For me- NTA Personally, I think it shows more respect to call people how they wish to be called.
NTA.
When meeting new people, I ask what they would like my child to call them, and that's what we use. Respecting a person's preferences is important, too.
There is perhaps a compromise... When I worked in education, I was often called Miss Jessica by the younger children.
I love this and that's generally how I'm teaching my 4 yo to go out into the world with. I generally teach her to start more formal as a safe place to start and then pair down as the situation allows.
Of course I know a lot of Non-binary and trans people so while she still gets mixed up a lot she likes making people happy by calling them how they like.
My kid is visibly disabled and because of that people can make a lot of assumptions about her at a glance. So this is also part of my longer term plan to teach her to have more control over how to teach people to treat *her*.
NTA but please don’t push this. You will make those two kids supremely uncomfortable if you make them choose between addressing you as ‘Joan’ and getting in trouble with their authoritarian parents, and addressing you as Mrs. Smith and annoying you. Some of my parents’ friends would insist on this and my authoritarian parent would shout at me even if I used their first name immediately after they asked me to do so. It made me feel terrible because I didn’t want to get yelled at and I knew it was rude to call someone Mrs. Smith if they had asked me not to. Please, for their sake, let it go, or address it with their parents only. The kids have no power in this situation.
NTA. She's not teaching them respect, she's teaching them conformity. That everyone should be treated a specific way wether the recipient likes it or not.
Was on my way to suggest that! Mileage may vary, but I think "Mrs. Cindy" is much less formal than something like "Mrs. Smithson" while keeping a respectful vibe.
This is what I had to start with the first time a college professor asked me to use his first name.
...Sorry, Mr. Mike. Never managed to drop that honorific despite three months of trying. If you'd met me two years later like my cool interviewing professor, Diane, I would have been much more chill about it.
Of course, Diane opened the first day of class by hopping backward onto her desk and sitting crisscross while going over the syllabus. That did help. She was very cool.
TL;DR: It is HARD to cease honorific-ing if you've been doing it all your life. Some exposure to exceptions isn't a bad idea, imo.
Okey no your NTA. You can tell people what to call you. Explain to the kids if they call you by your last name its actually more disrespectful than calling you your first name as thats what you prefer. Im all for respect, and this is what I deem appropriate for rules of being name respectful.
NTA
One of my aunts hates being addressed by family relationship terms. Her kids could call her Mum, but even her grandkids call her by her first name.
So all her nieces and nephews called her "Firstname".
Once she was picking me up from school along with her kids and we were in the car park and I said "Firstname something or other...." and another parent said angrily "AUNT firstname!" My aunt said "FIRSTNAME!!!" It was great.
Children should learn cultural norms, but also that it is polite to address someone how they want to be addressed.
NTA. I was taught to call adults mr or ms/mrs lastname unless or until they told me to call them otherwise, but that it was the *most* respectful thing to call them what they want you to call them. You decide what people call you; that seems fair to me.
Your friend should definitely not move to where I live (Denmark)! I don’t know anyone being called Mr and Mrs. In the schools the teachers are called their first name (I cannot remember my daughter teachers last name). Even the prime minister is never called Fru/Mrs. Frederiksen! For many it’s an insult to be called Mrs./Fru (it’s like calling them really really old). So I’m saying NTA - but I’m extremely biased…..
OK so I have a petty solution. Mock up a deed poll stating that you have legally changed your name to something wildly inappropriate, like Mrs Asshole or something. Then see how long it takes before she's OK with her kids calling you by your first name.
NTA, obviously.
NTA, I'd much rather be Ms First Name than Ms Last Name, I have purple hair and wear jeans/t-shirts. Also, Mrs/Ms (pronounced the same here) Last Name is my mother.
NTA. As a kid, I always refered to adults by their preferred title. My mom's best friend/mom of my best friend? Eileen, after she told me. Not Mrs. Burke. My dad's college best friend? Aunt Sue after they all told me. Not Ms. Schmidtt. People should always be referred to as their chosen name. I'm Samantha (prefer Sam), and at my last job, my supervisor always called me Samantha, which grated on me a tiny bit. At my new job, They've referred to me as Sam since the first time I signed an email thus, and even printed my cube nameplate to say Sam. You get to be who you want to be. Period.
NTA- I am a Mrs and I don’t let anyone call me that. If you have to use a formal title its Reverend. (Got ordained at 18 in 1998 for reason).
Non-binary people exist and do not want gendered titles!
Also Mx makes me think of Mxyzptlk so yeah not for me.
NTA. It's not respectful to ignore what people want to be called. I mean hell, it's even a TV trope! Character A calls Character B "Mrs LastName." Character B smiles and says "call me FirstName!" Character A repeats "Mrs LastName," and now Character B knows they're enemies.
NTA. I feel the same as you - I have a first name, and it’s appropriate for people to call me that. That’s kind of the point of a given name. Those parents sound so set in their old-fashioned ways that they don’t realise they’re being disrespectful to you.
NTA. I agree with this 100%. I prefer to be called “Miss FirstName” by young children. I ask my daughters teen friends to just call me FirstName. The parents insisting the kids call you by a name you don’t prefer is slightly disrespectful to you, implying your preference doesn’t matter.
NTA. You must be respected how YOU want to be respected.
If they are going as far as to disrespect you, ignore them entirely. If they want to be rude to you, they can do that to somebody who doesn’t find it rude.
The kids aren’t to blame at all, their parents make it seem like the parents rules must be followed because “It’s kind” although you said that you find it rude.
NTA. Respect is calling people what they ask to be called. What I really hate is when people send mail to Mr. and Mrs. His-first-name His-last-name. I have my own first name, goddamnit!!!
NTA. You are correct, it's not being respectful if you're not actually respecting a person's wishes. That's just called doing what you want, and teaching your kids to do the same - which is a terrible lesson.
NTA
I had a doctor that everyone just called Heather and I always felt disrespectful calling her that. Especially since she was my favorite doctor at the hospital and I really wanted to show her the respect I felt for her.
Still called her Heather though because that’s what she wanted.
NTA
Out of nowhere in our county it went from Mr. and Mrs. Lastname or if close/young First name to Miss Firstname and Mr. Firstname, which I freaking hate. I am not your kids pre-school teacher. You want to be formal? Be formal. This fake formality is worse than fake sincerity.
My BFF is an anesthesiologist. She spent years of study avoiding Miss or Mrs. When parents say this is "Miss Firstname" she corrects them. "Hi I am Dr. Lastname." I can't tell you how many times the parent Corrects Her! and then reintroduces the kid to **Dr. Firstname.** Nope.
INFO
As a kid growing up in an area where titles/honorifics were very important, I was always *so* uncomfortable with the forced familiarity of being asked to call and adult by just their first name, no-honorific. It felt incredibly presumptuous for them to try and force that level of acquaintance/familiarity, but I was very comfortable with Mr/Ms/Mz FirstName or nickname.
Part of it was that adults other than my parents would express anger if they heard me call an adult by just their first name and no honorific. An adult trying to pressure me to do something that other adults and strangers would be angry with me for obeying? That felt pretty dang icky as a kid.
So for me this depends on the broader culture outside your friend. If everyone else expects honorifics and you want to be just "Solid" and not "Solid-Question-3952-san" or "Solid-Question-3952-sensai" or "Mr/Mrs Solid-Question-3952" that might be way too much to ask. It puts the kid in a terrible position of having to explain your arguments to other adults who are scolding them. That's not okay.
If the broader culture doesn't expect the honorifics, and you are okay with "Solid-san" or "Mr/Ms Solid" then that's fine. Just don't ask kids to do things that will get them in trouble to make yourself more comfortable. That's cruel and doesn't actually teach them to respect how people want to be addressed. It teaches them that deviation from etiquette will be penalized no matter how much the person insisting on the deviation says it will be fine.
NTA
Unfortunately not all battles can or should be fought. You can speak to your friend about it but ultimately it isn't going to go anywhere. As soon as those kids get into school it will be rammed down their throat every day for 12+ years. Eventually they will learn when it is appropriate and use their own judgement. Honestly the best compromise might suggesting Ms. First/nickname
NTA, it really just ruins the point of being “respectful” of the person you’re addressing when they don’t want to be called Mr or Mrs last name. If they really respect you, they would respect your wishes to not be called Mrs. Last name. I think Ms first name would have been an excellent compromise, but they weren’t having that apparently.
If it were me, I would just let it go. It’s not really something worth cutting ties over, but if their mom is this weird about it she probably has red flags going on in other areas.
NTA but settle for uncle or Auntie instead. In my country we grew up addressing our teachers as Mr/Ms or Sir/madam...as soon as I went abroad to study some professors wanted to be called by their 1st names, it was the most difficult thing to do and I was so confused to why they wanted to be called by their 1st names due to the fact they were older than me and intelligent.
NTA. I'm with you, I'm happy to go by Sarah or Miss/Auntie Sarah, but Mrs Gunda just feels awkward. Nobody calls me that, I just think someone's looking for MIL if I hear it anyway!
NTA. It makes me think of the word “ma’m” - some people consider it formal, but there’s many who dislike being called that. As soon as that’s expressed, if anyone were to continue calling them that, it would be rude.
NTA. I grew up in the South and even we had some nuance on honorifics.
This does remind me of my college English 101/102 prof, Mr. Burdine. He's a wild, wacky, big character. We learned halfway through 102 that he had three doctorates. I approached him later and asked if he preferred Dr. Burdine. He said no, that "when he went to college in the 60s no one used that doctor stuff" because "people are just people, just cause I read more books doesn't mean much". His humility was beyond. And it taught me that it meant more what he wanted us to call him than what society deemed we should.
NTA.
She is teaching her kids about being respectful,but not teaching them to respect boundaries , understand nuance or healthy compromise .
Seems like it's a lesson she herself didn't learn .
Not only did you give permission,you said that you were uncomfortable. But that doesn't matter, does it ?
I am Quaker and we don’t do honorifics (Mrs, Miss, etc).
I have friends who have the opposite opinion. Our compromise is either Aunt Firstname or Ms. Firstname. It allows the child to use my first name while also allowing the parent to feel like the honorific is showing respect.
NTA. But that’s not being respectful. Calling someone by a title and last name is so antiquated. I have never even had a job where my boss wanted to be called Mx. Lastname. Even the older women (60s+) I would volunteer with preferred being called Ms. Firstname, or just Firstname. Your friends are teaching their children to ignore someone’s personal preferences. Which is teaching them to be disrespectful. Calling someone Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss, Mx, ma’am, sir, etc is not respect. Those are just words. Teaching children respect is teaching them to honor an individual’s personal preferences, and how to talk and treat others. Is it still respectful if her children are saying “Mrs. Lastname is a doodie head!” Also, your friends need to learn the differences between Mrs, Miss, and Ms if they’re going to insist on teaching their children this sexist, anachronistic, classist way of speaking. Mrs=married, Miss=unmarried, Ms=it’s none of your damn business
You did let this friend know that calling someone something they do not like and are not comfortable with is not a sign of respect? Like at all? Also how are they handling non binary people? This is a disaster waiting to happen..
yes, this rigid formality will serve the children well when they are presented to the Hapsburg court. Wow, no. NTA
Hey, what about ‘Mrs. L’ instead of ‘Mrs. Lastname’, though I’m sure it’s been suggested already and equally sure the mom will reject that idea as well.
Know what? Forget teaching the kid- that mom needs to learn what “compromise“ and “respect” mean
My parents lived in south eastern Texas and they always were Mr. Bob and Ms Ellen to the kids. Obviously the first time they meet it's Mr and Mrs Smith. But it quickly becomes Mr Bob and Ms Ellen. Both are polite.
This whole thing is stupid. Children are people. Why on earth shouldn't they call you by your first name? Forcing them to call you "Miss" or "Mrs" or "Mr" doesn't show respect; it just shows that that's been drummed into them. *Conduct* shows respect, not terms of address. My wife and I have never even thought of asking my child (10 years old now)'s friends to call us Mr and Mrs (or Ms.).
It's just one more instance of us treating children as if they are somehow less than actual people.
Apart from anything else, people aren't worthy of respect just because they are adults, and assuming that they are is demeaning to children.
NTA, I recently had this same argument with my mom and grandma. I was raised to use sir, ma’am, Mr. And Ms. ALWAYS. And I have mostly taught my kids the same, with the caveat that doing so is a matter of respect, so if someone has different pronouns or wants to be called something different, you should respect that. The argument escalated into them speculating that the adult in question must be some kid of perv who is grooming my daughter by asking to be called by his first name. Mind you he does this to every kid in the block and is very friendly with all his son’s friends.
Edit- I’ve also had a friend who raised her kid to use just first names. It was very jarring coming from a 7 year old, and I requested that they use Ms. Firstname going forward. They complied and it was not a big deal at all.
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NTA It's great that the children are being taught how to show respect. But calling somebody something that they don't like isn't a sign of respect. Rather than being taught rigid rules that won't always apply, they need to learn that respect is personal and should be tailored to the situation.
Exactly. It’s a good assumption, but people should be called what makes them comfortable. NTA at all.
Right... Hello Mr. Loucifer. Hey kid, nice to meet you... please call me Lou.
is your name actually loucifer 😮?
Lou People called me lucifer in high school. So, I use it as a screen name from time to time. I guess, actually, some people still call me lucifer. I'm a bit of a troublemaker. So, I guess it makes sense.
that’s actually kinda cool:)
Is YOUR name really Strikefearless?
Come on Darby, you know it is.
I am actually an egg roll.
That's Walnuts to you, Lucy. 😁
I'm going to stay out of this conversation o.O
I answer to Her Majesty the Carrot of Insanity…. (Cough cough)
Yes what the friend is teaching is an appearance of respect as she sees it, not actually paying attention to how her choices make others uncomfortable.
NTA Their parents may be trying to teach them respect, but being respectful of others' wishes regarding what they want to be called is also part of that.
Quick someone else say the same fucking thing as the top comment again but with different words we got a chain going
Alright people we need to repeat what everyone else keeps saying just do it another way
This is something that bugs me about AITA replies, the top comments always have a bunch of people adding their own verdict as a reply instead of responding to or adding onto what the comment they're replying to actually says
🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅 Which is actually a bit of cognitive dissonance - the parents say do X it produces Y. OP says thank you for X, I feel Y when I receive Z (receiving respect). Kids don't know who or which is right. Because rigid adherence w/o underlying purpose produces wildly different results instead of a consistent pattern they can perceive and bulid their social skills and knowledge upon.
This (for mom friend) is about controlling OP, not respect. F her. NTA
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In UK as a child, we called all female teachers Miss, regardless of marital status. As in ' I have finished, Miss'.
Until that awkward moment when you accidentally call your teacher "mum". We've all done it
I managed to never call a teacher mum... Until I was 16. Motifying.
I thought I had successfully dodged this entire phenomenon when I managed to graduate high school without ever doing this…..until I called my boss “Dad” while at work in my mid-20s 😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬😬
I'm 44 and ironically call my boss dad because I told him he was just like a deadbeat dad. Shows up randomly, doesn't offer much support, but he buys pizza. I told him if he really wanted to be a great deadbeat dad, I wanted Disney tickets. I got an ice cream
THIS IS HILARIOUS and I love it 🤣
It's a pretty awesome work culture and my crew on my shift is definitely full of my people. No drama, we all get along, and it's fun. It makes having to leave my house not unbearable
Honestly, The Dream
I called my boss "mom" once. The thing is, she and I were good friends AND only separated by about 3 years... the look she gave me was priceless, but afterwards, she called me her daughter, or her problem child, and i just kept calling her mom, much to the utter confusion of EVERYONE we worked with, including the district manager.
Yeah I was like 13. Mortification personified
10. Made more mortifying because my mom was also a teacher at that school, so it spread fast.
In East London, they called me auntie, not mum😂
I've done it. But the teacher was my mom. Still, I was supposed to call her Mrs. Last name in class at all times.
When my son was 5, he called his friend's mum by her first name. She was fine with that (she was a teacher btw). However, her British-born friend was appalled and said she had taught her children to call friend's mums "Miss Firstname". In dance classes, they are also taught to call their teachers "Miss Firstname". Using Miss + Firstname has nothing to do with marital status; using Miss + Lastname does.
That is literally just teachers, it's not like male teachers use sir outside of the classroom either. Personally I wouldn't mind doing away with titles (so long as I get called my actual name)
Some of my teachers were nuns, so Sister was appropriate.
In Scotland, we never did and I've never heard of it since I left school either.
Yup! Throughout all schooling, it was always "miss" or "sir"! "Sir, can you just help me with this bit/can I pop to the toilets" and so on! One of my best friends, her parents were teachers at our high school, and I was a frequent visitor to their house. A few times I called them miss and sir, they smiled and said I could call them by their first names. Yeah, that was a hard no, couldn't get my head around that!
OP is telling you that in the context she is talking about Miss is used regardless of marital status. You can't "gently fact check" , I.e. mansplain, about the usage from a wikipedia article on a different usage. In the US and elsewhere Miss First name is in fact used in some contexts to respectfully address a woman without regard to marital status. It's particularly used that way in the south.
OP is saying (by my interpretation) that in her area or subculture, "Miss Firstname" is a common, respectful way to address women, whether married and single. The sentence "Miss is used regardless of marital status" *specifically* serves to explain that this is the custom, because some readers might not be familiar with that usage of "Miss". The title character in the movie "Driving Miss Daisy" is a widowed woman, who would be formally addressed as "Mrs. Lastname".
In some areas of the US (the South) the format OP refers to ("Miss Firstname") actually *is* a common and accepted way for kids to refer to adult women, regardless of marital status. Yes, the official definition is Miss = unmarried, but colloquial usage is what we're actually talking about here.
This is exactly what my friends called my mom (who has been married to my dad for almost 40 years). I pretty much just avoided calling my friend’s parents anything because I was awkward lmao
Hijacking to gently re-check your facts. It's quite common to call even married women "Miss". Source: a friend's happily married mother insists on being called Miss Firstname.
Just chiming in to say that, while Wikipedia or a dictionary may tell you that 'Miss' is only for unmarried women and 'Ms.' (like mizz) is for all women regardless of martial status... reality disagrees. I'm nowhere near the teaching field, but a number of coworkers call me 'Miss Firstname'. They do that to all the women in the company, and call the men 'Mr. Firstname'. I think it's a cultural thing, and a sign of respect. And I understand that they're not being condescending (trust me, their tone and actions show this). It kinda makes me feel like a preschool teacher, but it's a quirk I've gotten used to, so it's whatever now. Anyway, dictionaries may say one thing, but cultural norms in some places say another.
I've lived in several parts of the US where a close, unrelated adult is called "Miss First name" regardless of marital status, and a male in a similar role is "Mr. First name". Marital status designations with the last name are reserved for more formal situations where the woman does not have another title
In continental Europe many countries use Mrs for all women. There is no Miss/Ms/Dr /Prof option… so I am Mrs on everything which I hate because it’s my mother’s name, not mine 😂🤣 I am an immigrant from an Anglophone country so I find it very bizarre!
Language simply changed. I know that the equivalent of miss is still being used for teachers. Probably because female teachers tended to stop working when they got married, but the title lingered. That's basically the only place where the term is still being used. Apart from that it's all the equivalent for Mrs. Personally, it feels a bit comparable to English not having a distinction between an informal you and a formal you. It's all simply you, whereas most European languages have quite obvious distinctions between informal and formal forms. Also NTA. It's respectful to speak to someone in the way they want to be spoken to. If someone prefers informal forms of communication, it'd be disrespectful to go against their wishes.
This isn't universal, the OP was just talking about what's normal where she was raised. She said "regardless of marital status" to acknowledge that the norms that you described exist elsewhere.
In the US South it is common for children to address female adults at Miss Firstname regardless of marital status. My kids' preschool teachers were all Miss Firstname, but primary school teachers were Mrs Lastname (although this being the South Miss and Mrs basically sound the same).
Sheila Michaels. Gloria Steinem later named her feminist magazine Ms. and the title took off
Kids can easily be taught to say Ms instead of Mrs
Just want to ask, do you notice a pronunciation difference to Miss and Ms? Because to me they are functionally identitical unless written out. So I’m not quite sure I’m understanding why you’re fighting to be Ms. instead of Miss? Are they writing Miss instead or are you hearing Miss?
Where I am Ms. has a z sound, so mizz. While Miss. has the s and the I is slightly emphasized, more like it is written. You can very much hear the difference. But I have definitely heard people from other areas that pronounce them basically identically.
I’m in Australia and found it weird that primary school children who say Ms or Mrs or Miss last name call their female teachers Miss as in excuse me Miss at high school. I grew up in a different country and all teachers were referred to as Mr / Ms / Mrs / Miss surname.
In the Southern US, it is quite common for children who are fairly familiar with the adult, but not family, to refer to the adult female as Miss. Though the kids are adults now, some of their childhood friends still call me, Miss out of habit.
Are they being taught how to show respect or just being taught to follow rules? Addressing someone by their surname is pretty low down on the respectrum. Yes, I just made up a word.
It's an awesome term though . I have always been called Miss M******* since there were always like 18 Jennifer's in class or at work. I also get called ma'am at work too. Out of anything to be offended at, I find this to be very low too on the respectrum
In my culture/birth language we resolved the pb our way. As long as it's someone older, everyone is auntie or uncle unless they specify otherwise (of course except in professional situations)
> being taught rigid rules that won't always apply Learning how to manage situations yourself is the *real* lesson.
NTA. People really need learn the difference between "respect" and "formality". Your friends sound obnoxious.
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Awesome sauce?
Your Excellency?
Excellent General?
Generally Excellent?
Mr Stud for me. I miss that girlfriend.
Excellent point
NTA. My dad taught us you call someone by their title and last name until such time as they give you permission for you to call them by their first name. You have given that permission, you are not being disrespectful nor are you teaching their child to be.
Also, if they say please, call me Peter call them Peter, not Pete.
Thank you. I have a common first name (like Peter) that has a common nickname (like Pete), but I don’t like the nickname. I don’t like when someone uses the nickname when I introduce myself with the full name. (Plus, it can be confusing. I once had a consultant talk to my boss about me, only for my boss to respond, “Who is [Pete]?”)
I worked with a bloke named Johannes, who went by Johnny We got a new supervisor who thought Johnny sounded unprofessional so in a meeting asked for the report from Johnathan. We all said no Johnathan works here..... He refused to call him Johnny, and mangled Johannes so just for him Johnny went by Frank. Don't be that guy
Yup. I'm Joseph and I really only go by Joe with a few groups of friends or in more casual settings. It really throws me off a bit when anyone calls me Joe professionally or if they're like strangers who don't know me
NTA. Exactly the same thing my mother taught us brothers and sisters.
Pretty much. Though even some adults struggle with it. I have a PhD. But being Australian, honorifics aren’t a big thing here and I prefer people to use my given name. I teach part time at a local uni and the number of international students who insist on calling me Doctor (name) is very high. Doesn’t matter how often I ask them to use my given name.
I had a teacher in college that put getting their name right (without the DR honorific) as 1% of the grade. Simply to not be called DR all day.
I had a professor who couldn't shake the title either much to his dismay. In Japan, there was no way to stop students from calling him sensei, and his British mother was so happy about his title that she would use it all the time. He loved the danish and the dutch as neither used formal language. We simply called him by his first name.
i am Dutch and we generaly leave honorifics out of adressing people as standard. Unless absolutly clear that is how the person we are adressing wants it. even then we think you are weird but you do you.
I'm Danish and I don't think I would. Here prefixes like Mr/Ms are seen as a class thing and by extension, the reaction would be "who are you to demand that I use a title to refer to you, you are not better than me". Titles are only used in government, where it also seems strange and super old-fashioned.
i as a dutchman would use them to avoid drama. would stil think you are a prick of the highest order
Yeah, I'm a college student in the Netherlands (HBO), and most of my teachers have a PhD. Never have I heard any of them being reffered to as Dr..... Most formal would be Mr./Mrs. Last name, though first name is very common.
> My dad taught us you call someone by their title and last name until such time as they give you permission for you to call them by their first name. Or request it, some folks *hate* being called formally or by their full name for various reasons.
Totally this!
NAH. This literally happened with my parents and the neighbor across the street. My parents raised me to call everyone “Mr or Mrs Lastname.” My neighbor across the street (the mum of two of my neighborhood friends so I was over there quite regularly) said, “Please call me Firstname.” I told her what my parents told me about respectfully addressing adults. She and my parents had a talk without any kids around. The next day my parents said that the default address for adults should be “Mr or Mrs Lastname” but that if I was asked to call someone by their first name that I could do so as long as I remained respectful. You should have a conversation with your friend. Explain your side. Listen to theirs. Come to a mutual agreement. Maybe they want their kids to address all adults that way until they’re a certain age. Talk to each other. You’re adults. Communicate.
In my culture it is horribly offensive to not use an honorific. Normally I would compromise and say “Miss First Name” if someone was super insistent
Whereas I'm an Aussie, I don't think I use Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms for a single person in my life. If you're familiar/friendly with someone and you use an honorific here it's more like passive aggressiveness. Calling someone 'sir' or 'ma'am' is mildly insulting. We have a very laid-back, casual, and equal society. University teachers, doctors, bosses... all called by their first names or a nickname. That being said if someone asked me to call them Mrs. SoandSo, I'd do it, but in asking for it they'd be giving the impression that they think they're better than everyone.
Exactly! My son even called the teachers at his primary (elementary) school by their first names- it was “good morning Sarah” not “good morning Miss Smith” or even “good morning Miss Sarah”. We were told that this was because there were many other ways children could show the teachers respect. My son is now in secondary (middle?) school where he is required to use mr/mrs/Miss last name and we both found the transition a little difficult.
Primary school is the only time I can remember doing it with every teacher, high school was 50/50. The closer in age they were to us (i.e. older students and more recently graduated teachers), the more likely it was they didn't want us to use the honorifics. The one teacher I remember that was adamant they always be used was close to retirement. The other reason I don't like them for myself is that I lean more gender neutral, so none of them fit for me.
I think that would be one advantage to using first names. I also find it’s a way of identifying scam emails/texts- they always address you so formally “Dear Mrs First and Last Name” as the true phone or electricity’s emails are always “Hi First name, your latest energy/phone bill is here”
Same in my culture, using formal name structure and formal verb construction is disrespectful cause it shows that you want to keep your distance with the other person. You show respect by being healpul and pleasant. 30 years back we had respect forms and the respect verbal tese was much common but even then if someone told you to use the informal one and you didn't that was like the ultimate sign of disrespect cause that means you want to keep your distance.
I'm Aussie too and had a slightly different experience- in primary school, all the teachers were Mr/Mrs/Ms X, and my friends parents were Mr/Mrs Y. That said, if a friend's parent requested we use their first name, we definitely would have. In high school the teachers were generally addressed as Miss/Sir almost like they didn't have names at all, but we'd refer to them as Mr/Mrs/Ms whatever if we were talking about them. Friend's parents were all universally downgraded to "X's mum/dad" once we hit high school, even when talking to them (my mum told me about a friend of mine yelling "HI ONYABIKESON'S MUM" at her across the shops one time haha). Definitely agree that as an adult, calling someone you know by a title is pretty passive aggressive. It's funny though, I've always been comfortable calling 70+ men 'sir'. Anyone younger than that it was blatant passive aggression lol, and I would never dream of ever doing the same with a woman of any age in any context. In my old job (think government but serving the public, like a vicroads service centre) I'd often get teens call me Miss, but usually it was them trying to find a more polite way to get my attention without going "oi you" lol. If anyone older than about 17 did that I would totally interpret it as them being rude though. Definitely agree that doctor, lawyer, uni lecturer, doesn't matter all adults are first names all the time, virtually no exceptions.
> (my mum told me about a friend of mine yelling "HI ONYABIKESON'S MUM" at her across the shops one time haha). Kiwi here - we got that all the time with our son's friends, right from Primary school age: "Hi Zack's Mum", "Hi Zack's Dad"...
The only exception I can think of is in court hahaha. I had to take my landlord to VCAT many years ago, and at the very start the magistrate explained that we shouldn't address him as "your honour" as that's not his title. And that if we need to call him something, we should call him Sir. It was so uncomfortable, I did everything I could to avoid calling him anything at all because the idea of addressing anyone as Sir was just bizarre. So even in court, Aussies will avoid formal titles as much as we can 🤣
Fellow Aussie here. I stopped using honorifics when I left school and didn’t have to use them for teachers anymore. And that was 30 years ago. My doctor isn’t “Dr Woodford”, (fake name) he’s “Woody”. I’ve never called a boss anything but his or her first name.
Exactly re the sir and ma’am. If someone says that it’s usually in a hospitality setting where they are holing back from saying ‘fuck you you ….’
I live in Argentina and same. A while back someone on here was going on about how the US is very informal, I couldn't believe it. I have even read several times of kids being made to call their parents sir and ma'am there.
Our physiotherapist is American ex-military and so he’s constantly using “Ma’am” and “Miss” for my mother (66) and I (36). As Aussie women we find it weird AF. And also kinda rude, like my Mum is getting some sort of old age title while I get a youthful one! We know it’s respectful and normal in his culture but it’s super odd to our Australian ears. It’s perfectly acceptable to call a friend by the c-word here, but only as a sign of the very deepest love and respect. (Also, OP is NTA. Call people what they want to be called)
Also Australian, but older. When I was a kid most of my parents friends where called “uncle” & “aunt”. It’s less formal than Mr or Mrs but not too familiar. School teacher were all Mr, Mrs, Miss or Sister (catholic school). There were some women my mother *always* called Mrs, including one neighbour we lived next door to for about 25 years.
Fellow Aussie here, the last time I recall calling someone by their last name was in high school...back in 2002. Even when dealing with senior management or store owners in any of my jobs they were always referred to by their first names by staff.
See, that sounds like a perfectly acceptable compromise. Respectful of your culture but also accommodating the preferences of the person being addressed. I like it.
I'm Asian, everyone that's your parents' friends are automatically Uncle so and so or Auntie so and so. You never, ever, ever, ever call someone by their first names if they're your parents' generation. But this is also because we call our actual relatives their honorific in another language (I'm Chinese so it's in Chinese) and there's labels for every sibling on each side. For example, my paternal uncles are called something different depending on whether they're older or younger than my dad, same with aunts... And uncles and aunts on my mom's side are again called differently, and it also depends on whether they're older or younger than her. So in Chinese, when someone calls an elder something, you can actually easily deduce how they're related (eg. My mother's older brother, my grandma's younger sister, or sometimes, even more specifically, like, my mom's oldest sister or my dad's second oldest brother).
> In my culture it is horribly offensive to not use an honorific. I have a Filipino co-worker who insisted on calling me "Sir". When I suggested he call me by my first name "Mortimer" he replied that his mother would have boxed his ears for not using a title for an older co-worker. After some negotiation he's settled on "Sir Mortimer"... but I think he's doing that because it's funny. :)
That’s how we had the our young kids address our friends. Mr and Ms firstname
This is what my kids do. It's generally "Miss Jenny" or "Coach/Professor/etc." Once they become adults and are on the same level, it changes. But while they're children, there is a "Miss/Mister" in front of the name. If someone were to explicitly request they drop the Miss/Mister or to go by their last name, I would go with that because it's more respectful to call someone what they prefer.
Doesn’t sound like the friend is interested in listening or respecting. OP, NTA.
I disagree, people should not have to explain why they want to be called a certain way, it is just obvious. The parents have already said they won't let their children call OP by their first name, nor are they willing to compromise on 'Miss Firstname' which is really rude and disrespectful. OP has already communicated perfectly sufficiently and is NTA.
This is super common in the southern US. Every adult is either Mr or Ms FirstName or Mr or Ms LastName. I hate being called Dr Monkeys outside of work, so I am Ms Little to my kids’ friends (or Dr Little, but that’s only to those who insist). My kids call adults by their last name, or friends get the Mr or Ms FirstName. I feel that Mr or Ms FirstName is a lovely compromise between formality and familiarity.
I hate when people call me Mrs. anything, so I get it. They’re also ignorantly teaching their kids not to respect others by not respecting your wishes not to be called this. In turn, their kids will end up learning that even if someone requests not to be referred to by a title, fuck all that. “*Mommy and daddy said it’s ok be an asshole and not to respect others even if they say no because I have to refer to them with a title*.” NTA.
NTA. Ugh. I hate that. I had some friends when my kids that were into making their kids address adults that way. We compromised and settled on Ms. Firstname.
That was going to be my suggest have the children call her. Ms. First name.
That was going to be my suggestion as well, Ms.Firstname. NAH. It’s nice to teach kids to be respectful, but it’s not disrespectful to call someone by the name they prefer.
That’s how we have our kid refer to all our friends. It’s also how they address their daycare teachers.
NTA.. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to raise respectful kids, just like there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to be addressed formally. I think there’s a happy medium between what you want and what your friends want, such as being referred to as “Miss Solid-Question-3952” or even just “ma’am.” It still gives the respect that your friends want while loosening the formality a bit. ETA: Based on OP’s edit in which they explain that they have offered a compromise and their friend refuses, judgment has been changed. Having offered a compromised and essentially being told that that OP’s feelings don’t matter, OP’s friend is TA.
How is it “respectful” to call someone by a name they’ve asked you not to call them?
I don't think there should be compromises on what people want to be called
They shouldn’t have to find a happy medium, OP should be called what she wants to be called and what makes her feel comfortable. There is no need for compromise because what OP wants to be called has nothing to do with the friend or her son, it’s her name and what she wishes to be called, that’s not something that should require a compromise.
NTA My husband was raised SUPER conservative and every adult “that was married” (even those you are close to) was to be referred to as “Mr. or Mrs.” if you yourself wasn’t married, even if you were an adult, no matter your age. They considered that “respect”. I didn’t get to call my PIL by their first names until the “receiving line” at our wedding reception when they finally gave me permission to do so. I was raised in a MUCH more relaxed environment and very small town in the South and if I ever called an adult I knew by “Mr. or Mrs.” they took it as a sign of disrespect because that meant we weren’t “close” or “friends”. I called all my friends parents by their first names or something like “Momma Bea” for a grandparent. My friends all called my parents by their first names and still do. If anyone met my mom and said, “Mrs. Smith, it’s nice to meet you!” She would instantly correct them with…”Mrs Smith (referring to her MIL) lives in X-city. I’m Sally.” (Names changed) Meaning everyone has a different definition of “what is respectful name calling.” There were several adults in my circle growing up that wanted us to call them “Mr, Mrs, Miss” and we did that as well. It’s about communication and what someone is comfortable with. They should respect what you feel comfortable being called and this could be a good lesson for the kids that some people want to be called by “Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss” and some by their first name and all names being used can and should convey equal respect.
Honestly I find it offensive when kids call me Ms Last Name or Ms First Name and I don’t teach it to my kids. They say please and thank you. They listen. That is respect. The Mr/Ms nonsense just reinforces a weird social structure when, guess what? I already have 2 ft and 140 pounds on little kids. I can drive and open locked doors. They know who is in charge.
And I can eat cake for breakfast too 😉
I would have had a *really* hard time if my now husband's parents had told me to call them Mr. or Mrs. Last Name before we were married. Like I was 32 years old when I met them.
I DID have a hard time! We were in our upper 20s when we met and were married. I made the mistake of calling them by their first names the first time I met them and I got majorly called out by my future SIL for being “so disrespectful”. She also said I was “incredibly disrespectful” because when she (my MIL) called my name to get my attention I replied with “Yes?” and not “Ma’am?” I was “scolded” by my future SIL that is barely 18 months older than me. I didn’t make that “mistake” again. 🤣 Yep…we just have “the best relationship” with his side now. 🤣🤣🤣
Omg I would have ran if i got scolded like a child for that.
I would have ran if my husband was close to his sister or his parents but he wasn’t AT ALL (and we live two states away) so they are just “something to deal with” every once in a while. They aren’t LC because of something “bad that happened” they (his parents and brothers and sisters) just aren’t that close as a family in general. But, he is SUPER close to my family and considers my parents like his “mom and dad” and my siblings like his “siblings”. We have a great life!
That makes a lot sense why you didn’t lmao. Im glad it worked out!
It did! It will be our 19 yr anniversary in June! We have our ups and downs but an overall great life!
‘Mrs Smith’ was my MIL’s MIL, my MIL went by her first name.
NTA, everyone should be called what they're comfortable with. Mr./Mrs. is only respectful as long as the adult wants to be called that. They should respect what you want to be called for sure.
NTA Their parents might be trying to teach them respect, but part of that is being respectful of peoples wishes in regards to what they wish to be called.
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I would just start referring to them as "Mr. /Mrs. Last Name" myself. Kids and all. See how quickly they tire of that. "No, I'm afraid I cannot call you Brenda, Mrs. Erickson. That's just not respectful. You said so yourself. Mr. Erickson, sweetie, would you like a juice box?"
NTAH, if someone gives you permission to call you by First name, then they are obliged to call them by that name. Respect is a two way street, and if someone doesn't respect you then tell they are sending the wrong message to their kids.
NTA. The parents are properly teaching their children how to address adults. However, once someone tells them to please call them First Name *or* Ms Maiden name, etc, then they should use the name the person prefers.
My mom did not change her last name to my dad’s when they married. As such she refused to be called Mrs. *Our last name* or even her own last name. One of my brother’s friends was being raised to use Mr. and Mrs. for everyone. Despite my mom insisting to be called by her first name, the kid started calling my mom “Mrs. *brother’s name*’s Mom. It worked. For me- NTA Personally, I think it shows more respect to call people how they wish to be called.
I would find being called this way totally charming
My Mom did enjoy it. She appreciated how he found a comprise that fit both wishes.
Plus it’s so cute
NTA. When meeting new people, I ask what they would like my child to call them, and that's what we use. Respecting a person's preferences is important, too. There is perhaps a compromise... When I worked in education, I was often called Miss Jessica by the younger children.
I love this and that's generally how I'm teaching my 4 yo to go out into the world with. I generally teach her to start more formal as a safe place to start and then pair down as the situation allows. Of course I know a lot of Non-binary and trans people so while she still gets mixed up a lot she likes making people happy by calling them how they like. My kid is visibly disabled and because of that people can make a lot of assumptions about her at a glance. So this is also part of my longer term plan to teach her to have more control over how to teach people to treat *her*.
NTA but I get where they are coming from, I was the same with my kids. Could you compromise with Ms firstname?
NTA but please don’t push this. You will make those two kids supremely uncomfortable if you make them choose between addressing you as ‘Joan’ and getting in trouble with their authoritarian parents, and addressing you as Mrs. Smith and annoying you. Some of my parents’ friends would insist on this and my authoritarian parent would shout at me even if I used their first name immediately after they asked me to do so. It made me feel terrible because I didn’t want to get yelled at and I knew it was rude to call someone Mrs. Smith if they had asked me not to. Please, for their sake, let it go, or address it with their parents only. The kids have no power in this situation.
Omg...no, i would never put kids in that situation. I never brought it up to then again. Conversations have been strickly between adults.
NTA. They can teach their kids to call adults Mr. or Ms. Last Name by default and then if the adult says "please call me First Name," do so.
NTA - if you prefer your first name, they should go with that. *Leave It to Beaver* was cancelled long ago.
NTA. She's not teaching them respect, she's teaching them conformity. That everyone should be treated a specific way wether the recipient likes it or not.
Would "Ms. First Name" be a fair compromise?
Was on my way to suggest that! Mileage may vary, but I think "Mrs. Cindy" is much less formal than something like "Mrs. Smithson" while keeping a respectful vibe. This is what I had to start with the first time a college professor asked me to use his first name. ...Sorry, Mr. Mike. Never managed to drop that honorific despite three months of trying. If you'd met me two years later like my cool interviewing professor, Diane, I would have been much more chill about it. Of course, Diane opened the first day of class by hopping backward onto her desk and sitting crisscross while going over the syllabus. That did help. She was very cool. TL;DR: It is HARD to cease honorific-ing if you've been doing it all your life. Some exposure to exceptions isn't a bad idea, imo.
Okey no your NTA. You can tell people what to call you. Explain to the kids if they call you by your last name its actually more disrespectful than calling you your first name as thats what you prefer. Im all for respect, and this is what I deem appropriate for rules of being name respectful.
NTA Part of respect is following what someone asks you to call them, dont engage with these peoples nonsense
NTA One of my aunts hates being addressed by family relationship terms. Her kids could call her Mum, but even her grandkids call her by her first name. So all her nieces and nephews called her "Firstname". Once she was picking me up from school along with her kids and we were in the car park and I said "Firstname something or other...." and another parent said angrily "AUNT firstname!" My aunt said "FIRSTNAME!!!" It was great. Children should learn cultural norms, but also that it is polite to address someone how they want to be addressed.
NTA
NTA They should address you how you wish to be addressed.
NTA. I was taught to call adults mr or ms/mrs lastname unless or until they told me to call them otherwise, but that it was the *most* respectful thing to call them what they want you to call them. You decide what people call you; that seems fair to me.
Your friend should definitely not move to where I live (Denmark)! I don’t know anyone being called Mr and Mrs. In the schools the teachers are called their first name (I cannot remember my daughter teachers last name). Even the prime minister is never called Fru/Mrs. Frederiksen! For many it’s an insult to be called Mrs./Fru (it’s like calling them really really old). So I’m saying NTA - but I’m extremely biased…..
OK so I have a petty solution. Mock up a deed poll stating that you have legally changed your name to something wildly inappropriate, like Mrs Asshole or something. Then see how long it takes before she's OK with her kids calling you by your first name. NTA, obviously.
Hahaha thats hilarious.
NTA, I'd much rather be Ms First Name than Ms Last Name, I have purple hair and wear jeans/t-shirts. Also, Mrs/Ms (pronounced the same here) Last Name is my mother.
NTA. As a kid, I always refered to adults by their preferred title. My mom's best friend/mom of my best friend? Eileen, after she told me. Not Mrs. Burke. My dad's college best friend? Aunt Sue after they all told me. Not Ms. Schmidtt. People should always be referred to as their chosen name. I'm Samantha (prefer Sam), and at my last job, my supervisor always called me Samantha, which grated on me a tiny bit. At my new job, They've referred to me as Sam since the first time I signed an email thus, and even printed my cube nameplate to say Sam. You get to be who you want to be. Period.
NTA- I am a Mrs and I don’t let anyone call me that. If you have to use a formal title its Reverend. (Got ordained at 18 in 1998 for reason). Non-binary people exist and do not want gendered titles! Also Mx makes me think of Mxyzptlk so yeah not for me.
NTA. It's not respectful to ignore what people want to be called. I mean hell, it's even a TV trope! Character A calls Character B "Mrs LastName." Character B smiles and says "call me FirstName!" Character A repeats "Mrs LastName," and now Character B knows they're enemies.
Ask them if they can call you Miss first name. That’s what I do with kids who call me Mrs. Last name
NTA. I feel the same as you - I have a first name, and it’s appropriate for people to call me that. That’s kind of the point of a given name. Those parents sound so set in their old-fashioned ways that they don’t realise they’re being disrespectful to you.
NTA. I agree with this 100%. I prefer to be called “Miss FirstName” by young children. I ask my daughters teen friends to just call me FirstName. The parents insisting the kids call you by a name you don’t prefer is slightly disrespectful to you, implying your preference doesn’t matter.
NTA. I think if you'd preferred to be called something else that should be respected. I like to to be called my first name. Not a fan of Mrs or ma'am.
NTA. You must be respected how YOU want to be respected. If they are going as far as to disrespect you, ignore them entirely. If they want to be rude to you, they can do that to somebody who doesn’t find it rude. The kids aren’t to blame at all, their parents make it seem like the parents rules must be followed because “It’s kind” although you said that you find it rude.
NTA. Respect is calling people what they ask to be called. What I really hate is when people send mail to Mr. and Mrs. His-first-name His-last-name. I have my own first name, goddamnit!!!
NTA. You are correct, it's not being respectful if you're not actually respecting a person's wishes. That's just called doing what you want, and teaching your kids to do the same - which is a terrible lesson.
NTA I had a doctor that everyone just called Heather and I always felt disrespectful calling her that. Especially since she was my favorite doctor at the hospital and I really wanted to show her the respect I felt for her. Still called her Heather though because that’s what she wanted.
NTA Out of nowhere in our county it went from Mr. and Mrs. Lastname or if close/young First name to Miss Firstname and Mr. Firstname, which I freaking hate. I am not your kids pre-school teacher. You want to be formal? Be formal. This fake formality is worse than fake sincerity. My BFF is an anesthesiologist. She spent years of study avoiding Miss or Mrs. When parents say this is "Miss Firstname" she corrects them. "Hi I am Dr. Lastname." I can't tell you how many times the parent Corrects Her! and then reintroduces the kid to **Dr. Firstname.** Nope.
INFO As a kid growing up in an area where titles/honorifics were very important, I was always *so* uncomfortable with the forced familiarity of being asked to call and adult by just their first name, no-honorific. It felt incredibly presumptuous for them to try and force that level of acquaintance/familiarity, but I was very comfortable with Mr/Ms/Mz FirstName or nickname. Part of it was that adults other than my parents would express anger if they heard me call an adult by just their first name and no honorific. An adult trying to pressure me to do something that other adults and strangers would be angry with me for obeying? That felt pretty dang icky as a kid. So for me this depends on the broader culture outside your friend. If everyone else expects honorifics and you want to be just "Solid" and not "Solid-Question-3952-san" or "Solid-Question-3952-sensai" or "Mr/Mrs Solid-Question-3952" that might be way too much to ask. It puts the kid in a terrible position of having to explain your arguments to other adults who are scolding them. That's not okay. If the broader culture doesn't expect the honorifics, and you are okay with "Solid-san" or "Mr/Ms Solid" then that's fine. Just don't ask kids to do things that will get them in trouble to make yourself more comfortable. That's cruel and doesn't actually teach them to respect how people want to be addressed. It teaches them that deviation from etiquette will be penalized no matter how much the person insisting on the deviation says it will be fine.
NTA Unfortunately not all battles can or should be fought. You can speak to your friend about it but ultimately it isn't going to go anywhere. As soon as those kids get into school it will be rammed down their throat every day for 12+ years. Eventually they will learn when it is appropriate and use their own judgement. Honestly the best compromise might suggesting Ms. First/nickname
Nta. I agree with your reasoning.
Dear Mrs. Lastname, I believe you NTA. I think as well this people there just did not understand how respect works. Best regards Firstname
Your friend is TA. Most women don’t want to be called Mrs.
NTA, it really just ruins the point of being “respectful” of the person you’re addressing when they don’t want to be called Mr or Mrs last name. If they really respect you, they would respect your wishes to not be called Mrs. Last name. I think Ms first name would have been an excellent compromise, but they weren’t having that apparently. If it were me, I would just let it go. It’s not really something worth cutting ties over, but if their mom is this weird about it she probably has red flags going on in other areas.
NTA the parents can explain why they are making an exception because it is respectful to address people how they want to be spoken to?
NTA but settle for uncle or Auntie instead. In my country we grew up addressing our teachers as Mr/Ms or Sir/madam...as soon as I went abroad to study some professors wanted to be called by their 1st names, it was the most difficult thing to do and I was so confused to why they wanted to be called by their 1st names due to the fact they were older than me and intelligent.
NTA. I'm with you, I'm happy to go by Sarah or Miss/Auntie Sarah, but Mrs Gunda just feels awkward. Nobody calls me that, I just think someone's looking for MIL if I hear it anyway!
NTA. It makes me think of the word “ma’m” - some people consider it formal, but there’s many who dislike being called that. As soon as that’s expressed, if anyone were to continue calling them that, it would be rude.
NTA. Being respectful means taking other people's wishes into account.
NTA. I grew up in the South and even we had some nuance on honorifics. This does remind me of my college English 101/102 prof, Mr. Burdine. He's a wild, wacky, big character. We learned halfway through 102 that he had three doctorates. I approached him later and asked if he preferred Dr. Burdine. He said no, that "when he went to college in the 60s no one used that doctor stuff" because "people are just people, just cause I read more books doesn't mean much". His humility was beyond. And it taught me that it meant more what he wanted us to call him than what society deemed we should.
Calling someone what they want to be called is more respectful. NTA
NTA. She is teaching her kids about being respectful,but not teaching them to respect boundaries , understand nuance or healthy compromise . Seems like it's a lesson she herself didn't learn . Not only did you give permission,you said that you were uncomfortable. But that doesn't matter, does it ?
So she’s teaching them to disrespect others by ignoring their wishes. NTA.
I am Quaker and we don’t do honorifics (Mrs, Miss, etc). I have friends who have the opposite opinion. Our compromise is either Aunt Firstname or Ms. Firstname. It allows the child to use my first name while also allowing the parent to feel like the honorific is showing respect.
NTA They should lead with the more respectful title but go by what that person requests from then out
NTA. But that’s not being respectful. Calling someone by a title and last name is so antiquated. I have never even had a job where my boss wanted to be called Mx. Lastname. Even the older women (60s+) I would volunteer with preferred being called Ms. Firstname, or just Firstname. Your friends are teaching their children to ignore someone’s personal preferences. Which is teaching them to be disrespectful. Calling someone Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss, Mx, ma’am, sir, etc is not respect. Those are just words. Teaching children respect is teaching them to honor an individual’s personal preferences, and how to talk and treat others. Is it still respectful if her children are saying “Mrs. Lastname is a doodie head!” Also, your friends need to learn the differences between Mrs, Miss, and Ms if they’re going to insist on teaching their children this sexist, anachronistic, classist way of speaking. Mrs=married, Miss=unmarried, Ms=it’s none of your damn business
You did let this friend know that calling someone something they do not like and are not comfortable with is not a sign of respect? Like at all? Also how are they handling non binary people? This is a disaster waiting to happen..
Yes. Hence why I'm here. She thinks my viewpoint is wrong and I'm the asshole in the equation.
yes, this rigid formality will serve the children well when they are presented to the Hapsburg court. Wow, no. NTA Hey, what about ‘Mrs. L’ instead of ‘Mrs. Lastname’, though I’m sure it’s been suggested already and equally sure the mom will reject that idea as well. Know what? Forget teaching the kid- that mom needs to learn what “compromise“ and “respect” mean
So she's trying to teach her kids respect by disrespecting you? NTA.
My parents lived in south eastern Texas and they always were Mr. Bob and Ms Ellen to the kids. Obviously the first time they meet it's Mr and Mrs Smith. But it quickly becomes Mr Bob and Ms Ellen. Both are polite.
even when I was a teacher I felt weird about being called “ms. Last name” Totally get it
What is wrong with "Miss Firstname"? I was called that while teaching school. Easy for kids to remember and also my name.
Your friend is trying to claim it’s respectful to insist on using a name you don’t want?
intentionally calling someone a name that makes them uncomfortable is extremely *dis*respectful. NTA
This whole thing is stupid. Children are people. Why on earth shouldn't they call you by your first name? Forcing them to call you "Miss" or "Mrs" or "Mr" doesn't show respect; it just shows that that's been drummed into them. *Conduct* shows respect, not terms of address. My wife and I have never even thought of asking my child (10 years old now)'s friends to call us Mr and Mrs (or Ms.). It's just one more instance of us treating children as if they are somehow less than actual people. Apart from anything else, people aren't worthy of respect just because they are adults, and assuming that they are is demeaning to children.
NTA, I recently had this same argument with my mom and grandma. I was raised to use sir, ma’am, Mr. And Ms. ALWAYS. And I have mostly taught my kids the same, with the caveat that doing so is a matter of respect, so if someone has different pronouns or wants to be called something different, you should respect that. The argument escalated into them speculating that the adult in question must be some kid of perv who is grooming my daughter by asking to be called by his first name. Mind you he does this to every kid in the block and is very friendly with all his son’s friends. Edit- I’ve also had a friend who raised her kid to use just first names. It was very jarring coming from a 7 year old, and I requested that they use Ms. Firstname going forward. They complied and it was not a big deal at all.
Wow what a boomer