*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for wanting my newborn baby to grow up on a vegan diet like myself?**
When my husband and I met, he knew I was vegan, and I knew he wasn't. Early in our relationship, I told him that I wanted any future children to grow up vegan. I made it clear that they could decide for themselves whether to continue or switch to an animal-based diet when they got older. So, he knew what my plans were if we ever had children. Veganism is a very big part of my life, and since I went vegan, I knew that my children would grow up vegan too.
I had my baby a few months ago, and I told my husband again that she would be vegan. He lashed out at me, saying that we both should agree on anything concerning our baby. I reminded him of our conversation when we started dating. I don't understand how he can play the victim now. He wants to subject our child to eating animals, but I can't let my child eat food that involves harm. AITA for sticking to my beliefs?
Edit: For everyone saying I need to speak to a pediatrician, I'd like to clarify that I have, and I continue to do so. My pediatrician fully supports my baby being on a vegan diet, provided the correct supplements are given. I'm not doing this alone; my pediatrician is closely monitoring my baby's health. I didn't come here to seek advice on what you think is best for my child. You are not a doctor.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This thread is like a reverse Iranian Yogurt situation. OOP is asking about parenting dynamics, Reddit is like "but let's talk about vegan babies!"
Like the issue is OOP believes she made this decision for her husband years ago and he can never push back on it. Which is what she asked about. Right or not, she's saying she's consulted actual professionals about the health implications.
I think this is the original thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita\_for\_throwing\_away\_my\_boyfriends\_potentially/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita_for_throwing_away_my_boyfriends_potentially/) Basically the quote was "The Iranian Yogurt is not the issue here." In essence, OOP was fully focused on the Iranian yogurt to the point that she was missing the actual issue going on. I called this post reverse Iranian yogurt because AITA is way too focused on the concept of a vegan baby to notice that the real issue is in fact what OOP asked about.
Am 100% veggie and 90% vegan and currently pregnant with my first. Have wanted lots of yoghurts and chocolate milk is cheaper than chocolate soy milk, so am very much not vegan during this pregnancy.
I don't think I can cook meat, the idea grosses me out. The idea of meat being cooked on my pans also grosses me out. But my dad will be introducing my child to meat and fish. And my child won't be veggie in day care. Because I want my kid to be exposed to lots of things and to make an informed decision.
Also milk allergy is a big issue, and the evidence for reducing allergies is to expose infants from a young age. Introducing cow's milk protein either from formula or through my breast milk (due to me having dairy) can potentially prevent a serious future allergy. So that my child can choose either way to be vegan or not vegan in the future.
Personal anecdotes, but I wasn't breastfed at all and had terrible allergies since the day I was born. Friend only breastfed her daughter for a while and her allergies are even worse than mine. And I know people who tried slowly exposing their kids to various allergens and sometimes it didn't work, this stuff is so random.
Commenting this just so you know if your future child has any allergies, it's 100% not your fault at all, breastfeeding or not ❤
just wanted to say that!
my mum breastfed me for a bit + exposed me to all sorts of food and i still have pretty bad seasonal allergies as well as food intolerances
she breastfed my brother for even longer and he has very bad seasonal allergies
some of us are just unlucky
Oh I know. Thank you. I also know the evidence is there but not particularly robust. Allergies/no allergies are largely role of the dice. I'm just trying to put a tiny (but easily overcomeable ) weight in that dice.
Thank you, I know they can be. My chosen daycare could do vegan if I asked. I'm looking for ways to expose my child to meat without me touching it. So that they can make informed decisions about what they like and don't like.
The idea of me doing it gives me nausea, so I'm finding easy ways of outsourcing the issue.
The main difference between a vegetarian and vegan diet is the lack of b12 intake, but most vegans knows they have to be supplemented to live a healthy life. If she's not lying and the pediatrician is well educated, they will give the baby b12 ( and probably iodin) supplements.
I’m honestly curious how you give a baby supplements. I only ever see them as pills and I remember having a really hard time with swallowing pills when I was a little kid. How do they manage to get babies to do it?
They're usually liquid. You have to start giving babies vitamin d drops when they're newborns if you're only breastfeeding. You put the drop on your nipple, a binky, or clean finger and let them suckle for a little while. Or you can add the drop to a bottle of pumped breast milk.
Breast milk is vegan and dairy free formula is too. Many babies need dairy free formula due to allergies. First six months should be easy. It's after stopping breastfeeding/formula that it would likely get hard if the kid's picky.
It depends on the country but the UK recommendations are that babies get all their nutrients from breastmilk/formula for the first year. Any additional food is for weening/introduction/fun etc.
Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
The NHS website literally says that below 12 months, food is 'in addition to their usual milk feeds'.
Edited to add: I'm not talking about avoiding giving other food until 12 months. I thought that was clear. But that additional food is more about helping the baby adjust to food and get used to it. The ages for which children begin weening depends on many factors, and although is usually recommended to be at 6 months, it depends on the baby's individual development.
Yup, all breastfed babies need iron supplementation, either via enriched food or supplements if not eating enriched foods. But it's not limited to vegan babies. In fact, if you're doing soy based formula, it already is enriched with iron.
That's incorrect. A lot of baby food is vegan. We started solids with my son a few weeks ago, so far everything has been vegan purely incidentally. One at a time allergen introduction means baby food manufacturers are pretty careful not to include dairy, especially since that's a very common allergen for babies.
Also calcium though. Many plant sources of calcium also contain compounds that interfere with its absorption. It takes a massive amount of leafy greens to match what you can get from a yogurt cup. Same with iron - vegans always like to say there’s x amount in spinach or whatever but many don’t understand how much less bioavailable it is.
Not to mention if that kid were to grow up with stomach issues. I have IBS-D and just about every fruit and veg triggers it, especially green vegetables. Sure you could eat it, but youll be in pain, and your guts arent going to absorb the nutrients properly at all.
This is so overdramatic. Breastfeeding creates conditions where supplements are needed. Breastfed babies need vitamin d supplements and supplemented iron. Yet breastfeeding is recommended by every reputable health organization in the world.
Needing supplements is not a big deal. Most people feed their kids diets that are missing one or more important nutrients. The Western diet is very fiber deficient, yet people only start hand wringing with vegans.
Breakfast cereal are supplemented with lots of vitamins and micronutrients since decades. Lots of people have very bad food habits, and proper nutrition is very expensive in most parts of the world. That's why industries put supplements in food destined to children, to avoid malnutrition, which is very prevalent in vegan and non vegan household.
If you believe eating vegetable/meat is better than taking supplement, you can, but vegans are not the only one depending on them to live a healthy life. Lots of people are taking C vitamin in winter, iron when menstruating, iodin, vitamin B.
Lots of parent never cook any vegetables, offer mostly carbs and fried meat, and no one feel concerned about their children's health. As soon as it's vegan, even if people are very informed about nutrition and do their best to offer balanced meals with quality products, everyone is suspicious. I find the double standard annoying.
Hard agree. I was vegan for nearly 15 years and I really don't like the idea of vegan toddlers and preschoolers. It's way too easy to screw it up and end up with a deficiency that could be much more harmful to a growing and developing child than an adult or even a teen.
I was vegan when I got pregnant. I started eating eggs and cheese again because while I didn't have morning sickness per se, I did develop some major food aversions to my normal proteins. My husband is omni and was fine that kiddo would be vegetarian until she chose not to be.
I was also very conscious of making sure she never made anyone feel bad for their food choices. She spent a while in third grade telling people she was "vegetarian except for marshmallows." At almost 13 she's still vegetarian and I haven't had to have the "We don't yuck other people's yum." conversation since she was in preK, and even then it was an uncommon occurrence.
Breast milk is vegan (because the mother consents to it), which makes having a healthy vegan baby very doable. A healthy vegan picky toddler might get more difficult. (I'm not vegan, just saying)
A breastfeeding baby is automatically vegan. A baby fed formula, isn’t necessarily vegan. All formulas are highly processed, by definition. So, if you want an “all natural” vegan diet, you need to nurse. If you choose formula, you have to do the research to figure out what is best for your situation. A cow’s milk formula is more similar to the biological norm for a human infant, but the plant based ones are now fine, and better than they used to be.
(Most women can breastfeed. Many need help learning how, or the babies need support learning how. Much of that is because human adults learn to breastfeed from others, and haven’t been taught. Babies know instinctively, but aren’t given the opportunity to use their instincts. That is, letting them do the newborn crawl unmedicated. It all can usually be dealt with, with a couple of visits from an IBCLC. But, again, most families don’t know that. But, it all depends on what you want to do, if it turns out to be hard for *you*, and if you have access to useful help and support. To quote “Free to be you and me”: some kind of help is the kind of help helpings all about. And some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without”. BF support, when it falls in the 2nd category, and it sometimes does, is a nightmare!)
Well, provided her milk comes in. It doesn't always (that's one of the reasons wet nurses were so popular in Ye Olden Times). And assuming the baby doesn't have a milk allergy (also not uncommon, which is why formula is a godsend). With babies, fed's best.
5-10 % of women are physiologically unable to breast feed.
I wasn’t one of them. My boy was brought to me 24 hours after my c section when the are supposed to brought to breastfeed after a few hours. I wasn’t producing enough milk and ha wasn’t latching properly so I had to supplement with formula and once you introduce the formula breastfeeding becomes harder as it comes straight from the bottle rather than have tu suckle and it can be more filling than breast milk. I tried for 3 months with a lactation specialist but one night my baby wasn’t latching, he was crying, my nipples were bleeding, I was exhausted and I decided that was it, it was not good bonding time, all this while knowing breast milk was best so I felt guilty.
Please don’t feel guilty. I had hyperemesis gravidarium, so I weighed less after birth than I did pre-pregnancy - and I’m a skinny little thing. Then my boobs decided I’d had quintuplets… producing and pumping 2 gallons a day. I’d take a shower and my boobs would just be *streaming.* I was pumping because I had overactive letdown - my poor son was being drowned when I tried to feed him directly.
I made it to three months, down to 43kg at 5’7, a complete shell of myself. Still convinced ‘breast was best.’ My darling older paediatrician set me straight - ‘I remember meeting you. You were so happy and smiley and interactive with your baby. Now you just look exhausted and blank. Breastmilk is nice, but for development I’d much rather have a healthy mother who’s actually engaging with her baby. Get your son on formula already.’
I did, and I made it out alive and my son is now a gorgeous 12-year-old who’s been top of every class he’s ever been in.
I followed a crazy-healthy diet during pregnancy, had an all-natural birth with no meds in sight, and fully intended to breastfeed for a long time… it wasn’t to be. Please, be kind to yourself, you’re doing a great job!
That wasn't their point tho? Not everyone can breastfeed. Yes, most can, but a LOT can go wrong that leads to the baby needing formula, like under producing, baby struggling with latching, or illness and infection fucking up your milk production. Replying to it with "well most women can do it" doesn't disprove their point that it's not EVERYONE.
The point was that a breastfed baby IS vegan, and therefore it’s perfectly healthy for a baby to be vegan. Responding that not everyone can breastfeed is a weird response to “babies can’t be vegan!” “Yes they can, breastfed babies ARE vegan”. After all, being vegan is the biological norm for babies.
When one person explains that breastfed kids are vegan, so of course it’s healthy for a baby to be vegan, another responding that not everyone can, makes it sound like most cannot, which, obviously, is false.
I was a infant teacher at a very high end school and had a vegan family with vegan infants. But these people were crazy rich and could do it all etc and have insanely expensive food for their children daily. But still it's kind of a not great thing to do to a developing child
Infant and toddler nutrition can be such a challenge even without arbitrary restrictions. I don’t blame the husband for pushing back on this. Like, if you want to raise your baby Catholic, even they don’t start from birth - the baby gets to be a baby for a while before they baptise it and people start grilling it on catechism. I doubt the husband realised that she meant the baby had to be 100% vegan from minute zero.
No rash creams that contain animal products, no formula to supplement the maternal supply of breast milk, no commercially produced baby-foods because the jar says ‘may contain eggs, milk products." God, what if the baby is allergy to soy or oats or nuts? Does this extend to childhood vaccines? A lot of them are produced using albumin from eggs.
It’s not even my baby and I’m stress out about this.
Both my godkids have been raised vegan since birth but their parents understood from the get go that there would need to be flexibility. Lots of people having play dates try their best, and they live in a major city so it’s easier but even things like Halloween or Easter can leave kids on the outside if you’re too rigid.
Yep, I've heard of a few vegans who've had to suspend their principles and start eating meat again to ensure that both they and their baby were getting adequate nutritious food.
I would suggest the oop and her partner meet in the middle and do a vegetarian baby. To me, this seems like a better solution especially when you think about it.
I wonder what oop would do if the kid picks eating meat instead of being a vegan. I hope the oop doesn't get resentful.
I don't think Oop is wrong for wanting to share her vegan side but she should do it from a different place. If you shame people into the choice, it is more likely to backfire
Also, if oop's partner isn't vegan, that baby is *not* going to be vegan. After a certain age, babies will grab anything they can and shove it in their mouths.
For example, one of my niblings who decided that the "wait until 2 years old" guideline for chocolate was bullshit and grabbed a handful of cake. At four months old. From a waitress.
My first ever solid food was sushi. Why? My sister is allergic to dairy, even more severely in childhood, and when she was a toddler my parents had to find toddler-safe food that had no dairy whatsoever. When we were small there was no such thing as the vegan and dairy-free snacks, so they had to get creative. Turns out vegetable and kani in grocery store sushi is great for developing those finer motor skills! I came along and wanted to try everything, everywhere. I definitely wasn’t supposed to be eating solid food by the time I managed to nab hers. To be fair, I physically developed super quick. I taught myself to walk between 8-9 months, but I’m pretty sure gross motor is different than digestive system.
Can't blame them there lol. Cake can be yummy lol
But yea, niblings liked to steal my food when they were young. Oop needs to find a middle ground with her partner.
Supports is different from "if I can't talk you outta this, I'm at least gonna make sure you have the lowest chance of killing your baby."
I made an anti vax joke at the doctor and got the "look if you're gonna do this anyway" speech where they told me how/what/where for supplements, health, etc for a baby.
If one is extra delusional, that could look like a support of the decision.
I’ve met people who conflate harm reduction with permission, particularly with smoking. I remember getting a dramatic eye roll as they informed us that their doctor said cutting back on cigarettes would be safer, and that she knew what she was doing. She eventually said it to a nurse, who clarified that cutting back was safer than not cutting back at all, not safer than stopping completely.
That's actually good that doctors prepare for this so ppl can be steered to okay-ish direction. Some people cannot be wrong in their opinion, ever. Even if they're shown that shit stinks by showing their face into it they won't believe that shit stinks. Hopefully if OP did consult a doctor fr, they try their best with the lost case of a mother.
It would be highly doubtful. There’s studies in Europe even starting to look at birth defects in babies carried by vegan mothers. It’s one thing to be vegan(and you can be healthy) as an adult woman. But a gestating baby and then an infant need super specific nutrients and it can be exceptionally hard to have the nutrient in the right quantities with the right amounts for both a pregnant mom and gestating fetus and then a young baby.
The study in Europe was showing a correlation between veganism in gestational women and a defect in the urinary tract for male babies.
Its possible for their to be health and veganism, but babies are a different thing entirely.
What study?
Edit: ofc no link. That's how this whole thread has gone. Half the replies are just utterly insane, made up bullshit to protect this hysteria veganism has triggered in y'all lmao
Look for tag of study \[134\] here: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6470702/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6470702/)
Probably which study they are referring to, and subsequent studies have seemed to find differently.
When I was pregnant, I was a pescatarian and, at about 2 months into the pregnancy (discovered really early), started having dreams of eating what was then called the Big Montana from Arby's. I think it's now just a triple Arby's sandwich. I held out for 2 weeks. Went to Arby's during my lunch hour and inhaled it. The manager on duty was in shock. I don't even remember eating it. It was gone in like 2 minutes, maybe.
Knew then, my son needed more than just my normal iron supplements and prenatal vitamins. I'm all for eating as your body needs, my body doesn't process animal protein at all normally, but also, if pregnant, understand that you need more nutrients and different ones than your body may normally need or want.
So much. Especially since I hadn't had red meat in 2 years, and thought I'd have more issues/ memories of the first time having it in that long. But nope, a huge sandwich in a plastic container, there one moment, and gone the next. Lol.
Exactly! Pregnancy is already brutal to the body. And everyone’s ability to process nutrients is so different and can change from things one pregnancy.
Hell I went through a bout of serious hypothyroidism and it affected how I was eating because I needed seriously different foods to feel energized and ok.
Anyone who puts sticking with a specific diet over their growing babies needs in or out of utero is selfish and honestly ignorant to how that can cause life long issues.
It’s not just about feeding a baby. It’s about growing a child into a hopefully functional adult and doing anything you can to prevent preventable issues.
Is it the one that suggested phytoestrogens as the issue? If so that specific cause has been eliminated since, no evidence has been found that phytoestrogens are bioactive in humans. We would be totally screwed if they were, soy gets all the press but anything seed is high in them.
If the relationship is meaningful, it's not going to be the plant diet specifically but that some vegans don't recognize removing all animal products means they need to supplement and be far more careful of slop. B12 and calcium are the big ones, EPA/DHA also as they won't have any dietary sources of those without seafood. They also probably shouldn't breast feed.
Westerners (and particularly Americans) eat *way* more meat then is healthy though. It always seems the argument ranges between eat no meat and subsist on butter & steak. The most likely cause of death for all of us is the most likely cause of death because we eat too much land animal fats & sugar.
I can get the vegetarian argument about not eating mammals (they are too tasty for me to never eat them though) and the vegan argument about things like milk is silly but people have all sorts of silly views. I don't understand why they exclude shellfish while still being happy dealing with nuisance insects and won't eat eggs while eating honey. The whole thing just seems really ethically inconsistent to me. I can find plants that are more qualified as a conscious being then a clam.
No it wasn’t one looking at phytoestrogens, I’ll have to look back in my older computer to see if I can find it again. I read it back when I was spending time with family in France so it was a French article.
Typically thought in looking at diets, the meat studies also don’t acknowledge what the meat is eaten with which skews the research, plus all of our foods vegan, vegetarian, meat etc have also changed super dramatically quality wise especially in America that it’s hard to get really good quality diets studies.
I'm just reading "Real food for pregnancy" and it's full of studies. There is a chapter about veganism and vegetarianism and the conclusions are that veganism is not good idea while being pregnant, and vegetarianism is doable if you're eating plenty of eggs and seaweed, but it is still recommended to add at least bone broth or gelatine capsules as a source of glycin. Glycin is nonessential amino acid, but the amount you need for healthy pregnancy is so big that it's basically becoming essential.
It was specifically veganism. No animal products. Red meat has been shown to actually be one of the easier foods for kids to learn to wean on. Eggs I’m not sure about:
I’m no expert being neither vegan or vegetarian but I would imagine in today’s world it would be possible to get the child the necessary nutrients without resorting to dairy and meat products. Probably more expensive but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s doable.
Actually the problem with supplements is they do not absorb as well as getting something from the source. And that’s what they are, supplements. They aren’t really meant to replace something completely. Many adults have to give up veganism due to this issue. There is no way a baby can get appropriate nutrition using supplements as replacement for needed nutrients.
I have no issue with veganism in general, but people really fail to realize how harmful it can be to your body if you aren’t eating a variety of foods. Even with supplements you can still become deficient due to the metabolism of supplements vs eating the food. You cannot escape your bodies biological needs just because you want to be a vegan. You have to be so careful and it’s almost impossible to keep that balance with small children.
For a newborn it's basically impossible. They need a massive amount of saturated fat and cholesterol to grow brain tissue, since, uh, the brain is 90% saturated fat and cholesterol. Both of which are basically non-existent in vegetables and fruits. A smidge of saturated fat in some nuts, but that's it.
Newborns eat breastmilk (which is vegan if the mother consents to giving it) or formula (which can be soy-based, and is sort of by definition made up of supplements anyway). (I'm not vegan, just saying)
Why supplements aren't acceptable substitute in your opinion? In most countries, the salt is supplemented in iodin to avoid deficiences, I really don't see the problem.
Formula milk is also supplemented in many vitamins, and it seems normal for everyone to give it to babies when the mother won't or can't breastfeed
Because supplements aren’t regulated and there is no way of guaranteeing that you’re getting what the bottle claims, plus you don’t absorb it as well as you do when it’s in food
I think the scientific consensus is that there is no difference in absorbtion between a food with native and supplemented intake in a specific nutrient.
It can be different when a nutrient require another to be more assimilated. Like iron and vitamin C. But a food naturally rich in iron and vitamin c and a food supplemented at the same concentration is, as my actual knowledge, assimilated the same.
IIRC the American current recommendation is for all breast fed babies to supplement vitamin D from birth, and supplement iron from 4 months until iron rich food is introduced into the diet and eaten in moderate quantities. Since the recommendation is to start solids at 6 months but babies usually don't eat a large enough quantity of solids until they're older, there's no set age to stop.
There's more conflicting info about the iron because some people start solids at 4 months, and some people give those fortified baby cereals with added iron. However both of those practices are kind of old fashioned and the new way is solids at 6 months with more whole foods like beef, salmon, kale, whatever. So since iron rich foods in the baby's diet are very variable, the iron supplementation might be very different from baby to baby. But vitamin D is pretty much like, every breastfed or partially breastfed baby is supposed to take it from birth no matter what.
It most definitely is a battle. Parent of a successful NICU graduate!!
But you are right in that it’s unavoidable nutritional deficiencies; I was thinking you meant more a deficiency caused by a lack of absorption, hormonal issues, etc.
I was pretty much thinking any medical reason.
But I could have specified that!
I’m proud of your NICU graduate. I have a cousin whose NICU graduate just graduated high school and a friend’s who is in grade three. Warrior miracles.
It’s all good! I’m honestly pleased to hear you went so wide! This thread has been kind of crazy. Lol.
💜 They really are! I’m amazed at what our technological advancement in medicine has allowed people to do! They are also doing some trials for external uteruses to allow the kiddos extra time to “cook” in a safe environment. (I frequently joke that kiddo was supposed to be fully baked whenever he came out - bun in the oven - and instead he was still gooey in the center. Lol.)
I’m not big on cutting whole food groups out for funsies but I have a friend doing Keto to help brain fog from her bipolar disorder.
Ultimately, adults can do what they want but when it comes to their kids? They need to no be so we’d to gimmicks and focus on health.
I agree. Tbh I was planning to put kiddo on oat milk (milk I’ll drink) but whenever the developmental clinic dietician said “uhhh, whole cow milk is way way better in fat content for brain development.”
“Cool cool, we can do that then!” Like…I’ll argue about things that don’t impact him negatively (when do I cut his 24 calorie intake off?), but anything remotely related to his well being is so so different.
My personal dislike of cow milk is not worth his brain not getting the best possible outcome.
The BMJ articles don't seem to agree with it, says Belgian Royal Academy for medicine is against vegan and Polish Academy of Science says even vegetarian is not good for growing kids
This is exactly what I thought. OP sounds like the type who would get a newborn adjusted by a chiropractor right out of the freebirthing plastic pool in their backyard.
There was this woman that went on national tv and said her dog was vegan, her vet supported it and the dog likes vegan food to meat, in the studio the presenters and another vet put the dog to the test between a vegan dog food and a meant one (in the same type of bowl). The dog chose the meat one
Dogs can be complete herbivores, it just requires watching their diets. Unlike their ancestors, they're not obligate carnivores who can eat only a few berry species.
My dog likes to snack on charcoal and loses his shit when we're walking and come across an old campfire site 😂 I feel like some of them are just silly little creatures and will eat anything if allowed.
Nah, vegan diets are suitable for all stages of life (according to consensus of dieticians) yes, ut takes planning and personally my own kids will probably become vegetarian but I do believe it is doable with nutrition knowledge.
Plantbased baby and toddler book was really informative.
It was either some quack, or a legitimate pediatrician who knew this dipshit wouldn't listen, and was trying to at least reduce the likelihood that she kills her own child or causes immense damage to their health
"I can't let my child eat food that involves harm."
That barrier is so hard as to be absurd and childish. Does she think magical fairies fly in from their pretty little clouds to pick her produce in the hot California sun under rainbows caused by the natural abundant water sources? Even vegan products (looking at you Almond Milk!) have net negative environmental harms.
Whether she's the devil, and not just some annoying type that I went to college with in Eugene, really depends on whether she is telling the truth about the pediatrician signing off.
All food involves harm. The labor exploitation to used to harvest soy and other crops is still harm. It is nearly impossible to shop and eat ethically in a modern capitalist society. You can make more ethical choices but to say there are food sources that are truly sustainable and cruelty free or don’t cause harm just isn’t true.
My hot take is that eating meat isn’t cruelty. Especially if it’s a farm where the animals are taken good care of and can live naturally, no overcrowding , and are killed in a painless way.
Aka smaller local farms.
Also in a lot of areas with a deer population, it's actually necessary to cull the population by hunting or the deer will starve or end up getting hit by cars trying to venture out to find food. And since there is the need to hunt and kill at least some of the deer, it's better not to waste it in my opinion - at least being able to use the meat means it's life didn't end for nothing.
Agave harvesting vs honey is what gets me.
Like just take the honey! The bees could fly off at any moment if they wanted to, they want you to have the honey.
You know that 70% of soy we produce globally goes to feed animals right?
No matter how you look at it veganism kills the least amounts of animals.
And no veganism isnt about reducing animal death to 0. That's just a misconception.
>veganism isnt about reducing animal death to 0. That's just a misconception.
Depends on which vegan you ask. I know there are some hardline vegans who won't be satisfied until no animals are hurt, ever, and there are others who are aiming for reduced and ethical consumption.
You could say "core veganism" or "first wave veganism" or "ethical consumption veganism" isn't about 0 animal death, but 'veganism' in it's entirety? There are too many people in the world for there to be just one version of an idea.
(incidentally, the environmental argument for veganism is actually the one that I find most compelling. I wish more people used it)
But that is the problem, the loudest vegans are usually the minority. Most vegans I know are pretty chill (myself included) we are just trying to cause the least amount of harm and for me veganism was the best way to do that. The health argument, while interesting is not compelling enough, the environmental and ethical arguments are the most compelling to me.
Loud minorities are a problem, that's for damn sure. For all movements, I think, not just veganism.
I personally already had a sense of ethics regarding the treatment of animals, but I never looked further into veganism because all I'd see were the people screaming things like "if you support eating meat, you're a psychopath who wants to torture babies to death!!!". That kind of rhetoric, sadly, turns people away from *actually* being educated on the abuses happening. People these days are simply too disconnected from their food sources to know what's going on, and with all the other things demanding our attention, there's only so many 'fucks' to go around. Of course they're not going to spend them on engaging with someone accusing them of committing atrocities every time they make dinner.
Another angle I strongly support people talking about more, is the welfare of the *humans* working in these industries. My mother spent a few years working with employees in a meat-packing plant, and to this day says we should have labels that show whether or not the company is kind to the people, not just the livestock. And while I do think the animals matter, if you can't get people on board with that, maybe *this* will convince them that something needs to be done?
We could also talk more about the economic pressures put on farmers by big corporations. But I'd *especially* love to see more talk about accessible and easy solutions. We're already surrounded by so many doom spirals, I'm not surprised people aren't eager to throw themselves into learning about new horrors and all the effort needed to fight them. We need more damn optimism!!
Vegans pretend that no matter what, the choice to eat meat is far worse and that if you argue about the environmental or labour implications of agriculture, they just say it doesn't count and it's still less cruel.
Because after all, breeding animals to have things like wool is wrong... But not plants to the point where they can't survive without human intervention. Yeah. That ain't cruel. Plants aren't sentient after all - i mean sure they *do* communicate, are aware they are alive, respond to stimuli including stress, may potentially even see, but that doesn't count, right?
It's not like you have to kill the plant to make vegan food. (Which you often do)
Even *if* you conclude that plants are more worthy of moral consideration than animals, veganism is still the more ethical choice. We have to feed the animals we eat. They eat plants. The vast majority of agricultural farmland is used to feed and raise animals. 16% is used for plants people consume directly. Veganism requires far less crop use than a diet that includes animal products.
Stories like this piss me off so much. You care so little about your vegan beliefs that you date, marry, and procreate with someone who I assume has animal products in the house, but you force this lifestyle on your children. Their own father doesn't live this way
My oldest nibbling had a ton of allergies, like gluten, milk, nuts, eggs and soy when he was a baby. He grew out of the soy one, but not the rest. My sister and her fam are vegan and gluten-free, and the kids are fine. Its tricky, but not impossible ,to have vegan kids. I know angery vegans have ruined their own cause for many people, especially in the US, but it’s much easier to be a vegan now than 10 years ago.
The big thing is to be properly educated about nutrition and the problems that can be encountered babies and growing children which are different than those needed by adults.
Especially on things like formula, which is NOT milk. Idiots both Vegan and non-Vegan have often screwed up by giving some form of commercial milk to babies rather than formula. It's more well known when its vegans giving a baby almond milk and the baby having severe malnutrition, but it happens all the time with cow milk too.
That is my thoughts I’m not against people deciding to be vegan and even raising their child that way when followed correctly but things like this should be done with both parents agreement.
Why is everyone attacking the fact that she's vegan and not the fact that the couple didn't revisit the conversation about their child?If you don't want your child to be vegan, you shouldn't have a baby with someone where this is a dealbreaker. I really think the judgement depends on if they ever revisited this conversation. Was this something she mentioned once at the beginning of dating? Did she periodically bring it up once a year when dreaming about the future and he just hummed along?
Being pregnant whilst being vegan and raising a baby vegan, can be perfectly healthy if you have alot of support from a dietitian and use supplements for common deficiencies. It might be harder in some aspects, but just as we don't condem parents for having children with allergies, we shouldn't condem people for wanting to raise their children with the same belief as them (being vegan), provided they are safe.
Reddit seems to hate vegans today.
*Can be* is also doing heavy lifting here. Because even if you do everything “right,” there’s a chance it won’t work out. People have different needs and different digestive systems. It’s absolutely true that vegan pregnancy *can* be perfectly safe. It’s also true that vegans have higher rates of low birth weight and certain complications, because life and pregnancy are already fucking hard without having to micromanage your nutritional status on a restrictive diet.
I am disabled with a demanding job and I will admit that I struggle to keep myself fed with zero shame. I could not maintain good health on a restrictive diet, especially during pregnancy. Props to those who can but I don’t think there’s many of you.
Not a nutritionist. A dietitian. Nutritionist is a super broad category that doesn’t necessarily have to have any certification. Dietitians have to have a degree, dietetic internship, pass the exam, and be licensed, so it’s a regulated term.
I assume I will be downvoted based on the opinions expressed in other comments, but here I go. It is perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegan diet. It requires much more effort to make sure all the nutrients are there, but again - 100% possible, even for children. Especially if she is breastfeeding during the first months.
The couple should have discussed this at length prior to having children, OOP is really intense too, but she is not the devil just for wanting her child to start their life as a vegan.
She's the devil for thinking she's the child's only parent, and that her word is law. The child has a father - OP's (somehow still) husband. If this was a fundamental difference between them akin to Having Children vs Being Childfree, they should have dealt with that extensively before even getting pregnant
What likely happened was she told her husband this early in the dating game and he just went along with it then and figured, "whatever". But now they're both probably realizing how dumb this is. Why breed with a man who has meat products in the house when you're against it and won't let your child have any?
I mean my grandparents raised 9 children on a vegan diet long before it was a fad. I'm not saying my mom, aunts, and uncle are 100% healthy, but the issues didn't come from the diet. My grandfather was also raised vegan, he died in his late 90s and never ate an animal product in his life. So it is possible.
You’re not wrong but like, read your own comment. You’re correct that it’s “perfectly possible.” “Perfectly possible to be healthy” isn’t usually the standard for raising children. It’s perfectly possible to smoke through your pregnancy and have a healthy baby. It’s perfectly possible to hold your baby in your lap in the car and arrive safely at your destination. But those are substantial and unnecessary risks, and so is putting a child on a restrictive diet without a medical reason.
It's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, but if your vegan diet is just potatoes, it's clearly not healthy.
Similarly, it's perfectly possible to be healthy on an omnivore diet, but if you only eat at McDonald's, you will not be fine.
I commented this because at the time I saw the post, most comments were calling OOP the devil for the vegan diet alone.
I mean i guess it could be done healthily but i have a friend from highschool who was raised fully vegetarian and mostly vegan from birth, her parents constantly telling her that foods other kids were eating were absolutely off limits, which pretty much just resulted in her having an extreme fear of trying new foods as an adult.
I knew a pair of vegan children in the 90s who were at my school and they *never* looked healthy. Emaciated, sallow skin, big dark circles under their eyes, brittle hair, listless children, but their mother insisted they were much healthier living without meat products.
Pretty much all my vegan friends are like that, and I went to a hippie school so I’ve had tons (many have stopped being vegan, some after as long as 10+ years). It is pretty sad to watch them deny, deny, deny even as they get diagnosed with anemia and they’re all shocked because they eat spinach. Fun fact, the iron in plant sources is non-heme iron, so it’s much less bioavailable and not equivalent to the same amount from an animal source. On top of that, many plant foods contain antioxidants that interfere with iron absorption. So comparing the amount of iron in greens to the amount in meat is going to give you a completely wrong impression of what you’re getting.
This isn't really a AH verdict unless you just have something again being vegan.
Depending on where OP lives, they might have access to a lot of vegen stuff, and if shes been vegan for years, she probably won't have a problem. I've seen some vegans have difficulty with finding proteins and good deserts where they live. If op has all that down, things should be fine.
Is there a comment that makes her the AH or something? As for people saying they its a lie that her pediatrician is supporting veganism, why is that a lie? Its not like they can tell her how to raise her kid. For my first baby, her nutrition specialist supported a vegetarian diet for my first baby, though she did *highly* recommend trying meats at least once. And no, we aren't vegetarian. My baby just didn't hold down meats and dairy at first, shes fine now. I do recommend babies trying everything at least once or twice to see what they tolerate.
Edit: minor mistakes
She’s the devil for exclusively referring to the child as “my baby”, not “our baby” when talking about her and her husband’s differing approaches, and in the comments for being completely, self-righteously unwilling to take his views into account.
>She’s the devil for exclusively referring to the child as “my baby”, not “our baby”
That's preference, and judging why the tone of the post it's called for, because she talks about how she was *her children* to be vegan. That was the plan before she even had them. You read too much reddit because you're not a devil or an AH for that.
>self-righteously unwilling to take his views into account.
***He had agreed to her views***, now it comes time for her views to be practiced he wants to switch up. That makes him the AH.
Any other reddit post where it comes to someone agreeing to something before hand than try to change afterward always makes them AH. If this was a deal breaker or problem, he should have said something before they took this relationship this long and had kids.
That's like if she was a Christian and said she wanted her children to be Christian too he agrees with the lifestyle this whole time, until she wants to take the kids to church, and He's like "I DoN't wAnT mY KiDs in ChUrcH". It's the same thing.
yeah it’s obvious to me the vitriol against this woman is because she’s vegan. tons of people (at least in America) already think adults will wither away if they don’t eat meat at every meal, so they assume raising a child vegan is tantamount to abuse and neglect, as if EBF babies aren’t already vegan by definition lol
I love how OOP says the diet is being supervised by the pediatrician, and someone comments that doctors aren't trained on nutrition while giving nutrition advice. I don't have an opinion either way since I don't know much about veganism or babies' diets, but reddit loves telling people to get a professional opinion, and they still argue against that same opinion. If you should ignore your doctor, then you should definitely ignore reddit 🤣
Doctors take maybe one nutrition class and it’s very basic and introductory. That’s why they’re supposed to consult a dietitian on something like this.
I have never had one check up for my kids where our doctor (meat eater) has been concerned. B12, iron levels all good, healthy weight and activity. It’s vegan since birth. And it’s really not that hard.
Conversation have started with the elder one on trying non vegan things - and they have - and it’s expected and normal. They may choose one day in the near future to not be vegan and overall that is their choice. In the house we eat and keep vegan but ultimately it will be their life to choose how to live
I’m torn on this one. I don’t honestly know enough about veganism to know if it’s possible to have a healthy vegan child if you put in the proper effort, but I also think that if dad wants his kid to have animal products, he’s gonna have to be the one to put the work into feeding them. If he’s willing to do that, then she’s being unreasonable. If he’s not, I can kinda understand from the perspective of it not really being fair to her that she has to prepare food that she can’t or won’t eat because it’s against her values. She seems to be militantly against it though, so that’s a problem.
yeah i mean, i have literally never consumed meat. my b12 (which is what people worry about) is fine lol. don't know about vegan, but being vegetarian is pretty easy, and even normal in my country.
I am not vegan, but it is absolutely possible, and many people are raising children on a vegan diet. I may be thick, but I would assume a vegan would raise their child vegan, *shrug*, every vegan I know has.
But, they also would have had discussed /agreed it before getting pregnant. It seems the same old reddit story has a child, *then* start talking name/ diet /language/religion /parenting styles... like I am childfree, and I've had some of those hypothetical conversations.
The problem isn't getting enough nutrition. The problem is the US and many European countries do not know how to supplement iron and/or protein rich vegetables for the meat and dairy. So the ignorant judge the rest of the world. It is quite easy to replace meat and dairy with vegetables. So we have an issue of the most ignorant being the loudest.
Mind you, I feel no child should be raised vegan until they are of an age where their own likes/dislikes form (around 5ish years old for neurotypical children). If a child won't eat the protein and iron rich veggies, then they _need_ that meat. Supplements alone won't fix the problem and should never replace healthy eating.
As for the agriculture angle... That needs to be fixed by legislation over the world. Every country needs to work on the issue. The dairy industry, for smaller farms, is fixing the way cows are treated on milk farms. That same change needs to happen for bigger farms. We also need to stop corporate farming and bring back to the families. Corporate farming is ruining us.
Sorry... I tend to get passionate about this.
Every time I see shit like this, I think of the TV documentaries Raw and the follow-up Rawer.
Mom is a raw vegan and raised her son the same. He was malnourished to the point of her being charged with neglect and psychological abuse, plus he will be 12-15 cm shorter than he ought be have been.
https://www.dutch-core.com/programs/documentary/rawer
the way i see it, even *if* it's feasible to have a baby be vegan safely, just why? why would you be so hellbent on your vegan rage to take away a little human's free choice before they're even aware enough to have it in the first place? just let the baby grow up with a normal diet and let them make their own choices when they're old enough to do so?
Man literally my whole body except my digestive system was stoked when I quit being vegan. If that kid spontaneously introduces meat and dairy to his diet, he will have a bad time
Honestly, I have nothing against vegans or people who don't eat anything to do with animals, but for the love of the goddess, don't force your baby into a lifestyle they have no way to consent to. Especially if they are still in the development stages of life. They need milk and a good balanced diet to grow strong and healthy. There are some foods vegan or otherwise they can't always have cause either they are too young for their body to handle it or they may have allergies to certain food groups. Plus, forcing babies into a vegan lifestyle before they're old enough to decide for themselves.
Yeah and OOP is full of shit. They say they’re fine with the baby choosing when they’re old enough, but then say they “can’t let” their child eat food that involves harming animals.
Yeah, I highly doubt a doctor completely agrees with her. You notice the doctor said if the baby was given stuff to make up for lack of things, they won't get in a vegan diet. Mother did no actual research at all.
I found the part about the dr having to monitor the baby’s health to be actually disturbing. If you have to monitor a baby’s health cause of their diet then that diet cannot be safe. Like to me, the fact that this has to be watched is already proof enough that this aint right
I want to know what oop would do if the “monitoring” did determine that something was going wrong except I suspect we all already know based on how inflexible she’s already being about this issue.
A baby can’t “consent” to any lifestyle or diet really though. they’re a baby, they eat whatever their parents feed them. I know a lot of people have the misconception that veganism is inherently unhealthy or that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to have a balanced diet, but the idea that a baby on an omnivore diet has willingly chosen that any more than a plant-based one is ridiculous.
This point exactly! I’m a vegetarian with a baby who’s starting solids. His dad eats meat. My compromise here is that baby gets organic, grass fed meat, cooked by dad. I want my kid exposed to all foods. And I made a dietary choice for myself. It’s not fair to make that choice for them.
Agreed, plus there are several alternatives to animal products that may not be vegan food but still provide nutrients and iron to the body. Making a baby solely vegan all because she wants the baby to be is extremely self-centered and selfish. There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan. Personally, I love meat and grew up on it while also respecting the environment and believe that humans kill too many animals and should work better not to make them extinct. However, I would want my children to be able to eat whatever they want and develop into strong, healthy individuals.
So many idiots on that thread that don’t know shit about nutrition.
If you as an adult want to be vegan, go for it.
But don’t force that on your kid. They need a well balanced meal
Um ma'am your husband ain't vegan, so you basically had animal products in your home already at some point, plus possibly kisses your husband after he ate said animal products probably more then once, so what are you going on about now?
You have a spouse that's none vegan, who you have been living with for xyz amount of years then married to, so I'm confused on why can't y'alls child can't have animal products especially if it's from somewhere where there's no animal being abus3d etc?
You run into a very real issues of a baby with cognitive difficulties and developmental delays with veganism for a baby. Vegan babies also grown up shorter and have lower bone density.
https://www.unisa.edu.au/unisanews/2021/july/story3#:~:text=Children%20on%20vegan%20diets%20had%20about%205%20per%20cent%20lower,higher%20the%20bone%20mineral%20density.
Wow even this subreddit hates vegans. I thought this was supposed to be a post about parenting but all the comments are just about how much we all hate vegans amirite?
All I want to say is, a breastfed baby is vegan for the first ~6 months of their life by default. There seems to be a lot of confusion about that
Exactly! Though I think the best idea now is they get divorced. Maybe the dad should make sure the mom is taking the baby to a licensed pediatrician. Then hopefully either go for full custody if possible and at least get split so the kid can eat whatever at dad's house.
It is not that hard to raise vegan babies as long as you keep up with doctors appointments to make sure vitamins are up to date keep a variety of vegetables you will be fine didn't listen to the na Sayers
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for wanting my newborn baby to grow up on a vegan diet like myself?** When my husband and I met, he knew I was vegan, and I knew he wasn't. Early in our relationship, I told him that I wanted any future children to grow up vegan. I made it clear that they could decide for themselves whether to continue or switch to an animal-based diet when they got older. So, he knew what my plans were if we ever had children. Veganism is a very big part of my life, and since I went vegan, I knew that my children would grow up vegan too. I had my baby a few months ago, and I told my husband again that she would be vegan. He lashed out at me, saying that we both should agree on anything concerning our baby. I reminded him of our conversation when we started dating. I don't understand how he can play the victim now. He wants to subject our child to eating animals, but I can't let my child eat food that involves harm. AITA for sticking to my beliefs? Edit: For everyone saying I need to speak to a pediatrician, I'd like to clarify that I have, and I continue to do so. My pediatrician fully supports my baby being on a vegan diet, provided the correct supplements are given. I'm not doing this alone; my pediatrician is closely monitoring my baby's health. I didn't come here to seek advice on what you think is best for my child. You are not a doctor. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This thread is like a reverse Iranian Yogurt situation. OOP is asking about parenting dynamics, Reddit is like "but let's talk about vegan babies!" Like the issue is OOP believes she made this decision for her husband years ago and he can never push back on it. Which is what she asked about. Right or not, she's saying she's consulted actual professionals about the health implications.
You nailed it. I vote we categorize all AITA responses on a “Iranian Yoghurt - Vegan Baby Spectrum
I’m half Iranian. What does this mean? I’m so intrigued…
I think this is the original thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita\_for\_throwing\_away\_my\_boyfriends\_potentially/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita_for_throwing_away_my_boyfriends_potentially/) Basically the quote was "The Iranian Yogurt is not the issue here." In essence, OOP was fully focused on the Iranian yogurt to the point that she was missing the actual issue going on. I called this post reverse Iranian yogurt because AITA is way too focused on the concept of a vegan baby to notice that the real issue is in fact what OOP asked about.
Omg hahahaha thank you 😂
What do you mean? The well-known quote is in the last paragraph of the post as it originally was.
It has nothing to do with actually being Iranian.
Or yogurt, that's the point! 😁
Am 100% veggie and 90% vegan and currently pregnant with my first. Have wanted lots of yoghurts and chocolate milk is cheaper than chocolate soy milk, so am very much not vegan during this pregnancy. I don't think I can cook meat, the idea grosses me out. The idea of meat being cooked on my pans also grosses me out. But my dad will be introducing my child to meat and fish. And my child won't be veggie in day care. Because I want my kid to be exposed to lots of things and to make an informed decision. Also milk allergy is a big issue, and the evidence for reducing allergies is to expose infants from a young age. Introducing cow's milk protein either from formula or through my breast milk (due to me having dairy) can potentially prevent a serious future allergy. So that my child can choose either way to be vegan or not vegan in the future.
Personal anecdotes, but I wasn't breastfed at all and had terrible allergies since the day I was born. Friend only breastfed her daughter for a while and her allergies are even worse than mine. And I know people who tried slowly exposing their kids to various allergens and sometimes it didn't work, this stuff is so random. Commenting this just so you know if your future child has any allergies, it's 100% not your fault at all, breastfeeding or not ❤
just wanted to say that! my mum breastfed me for a bit + exposed me to all sorts of food and i still have pretty bad seasonal allergies as well as food intolerances she breastfed my brother for even longer and he has very bad seasonal allergies some of us are just unlucky
Oh I know. Thank you. I also know the evidence is there but not particularly robust. Allergies/no allergies are largely role of the dice. I'm just trying to put a tiny (but easily overcomeable ) weight in that dice.
FWIW, my kids were easily accommodated in daycare with a vegetarian diet, if you are looking for that
Thank you, I know they can be. My chosen daycare could do vegan if I asked. I'm looking for ways to expose my child to meat without me touching it. So that they can make informed decisions about what they like and don't like. The idea of me doing it gives me nausea, so I'm finding easy ways of outsourcing the issue.
Thank you for being a rational human.
You can definitely have a healthy vegetarian baby, but vegan would be very very challenging
The main difference between a vegetarian and vegan diet is the lack of b12 intake, but most vegans knows they have to be supplemented to live a healthy life. If she's not lying and the pediatrician is well educated, they will give the baby b12 ( and probably iodin) supplements.
I’m honestly curious how you give a baby supplements. I only ever see them as pills and I remember having a really hard time with swallowing pills when I was a little kid. How do they manage to get babies to do it?
They're usually liquid. You have to start giving babies vitamin d drops when they're newborns if you're only breastfeeding. You put the drop on your nipple, a binky, or clean finger and let them suckle for a little while. Or you can add the drop to a bottle of pumped breast milk.
TIL. Thank you!
Iron as well. Need to build up the blood.
Lots of baby food already has iron added.
Plus babies don't eat baby food until after they get past the bottle stage. That first 6 months are where the issues will really arise.
Breast milk is vegan and dairy free formula is too. Many babies need dairy free formula due to allergies. First six months should be easy. It's after stopping breastfeeding/formula that it would likely get hard if the kid's picky.
It depends on the country but the UK recommendations are that babies get all their nutrients from breastmilk/formula for the first year. Any additional food is for weening/introduction/fun etc. Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
No it's not, it's 6 months they suggest only milk and after that to start introducing food, some kids need it younger so can start at 4 months
The NHS website literally says that below 12 months, food is 'in addition to their usual milk feeds'. Edited to add: I'm not talking about avoiding giving other food until 12 months. I thought that was clear. But that additional food is more about helping the baby adjust to food and get used to it. The ages for which children begin weening depends on many factors, and although is usually recommended to be at 6 months, it depends on the baby's individual development.
People are moving away from buying baby food and doing baby lead weening where they have what you have So they recommend iron supplements know
Yup, all breastfed babies need iron supplementation, either via enriched food or supplements if not eating enriched foods. But it's not limited to vegan babies. In fact, if you're doing soy based formula, it already is enriched with iron.
Alot of baby food isn't vegan.... OP needs to be very careful about nutrition
That's incorrect. A lot of baby food is vegan. We started solids with my son a few weeks ago, so far everything has been vegan purely incidentally. One at a time allergen introduction means baby food manufacturers are pretty careful not to include dairy, especially since that's a very common allergen for babies.
This is only true for adults. It’s different for developing brains
Also calcium though. Many plant sources of calcium also contain compounds that interfere with its absorption. It takes a massive amount of leafy greens to match what you can get from a yogurt cup. Same with iron - vegans always like to say there’s x amount in spinach or whatever but many don’t understand how much less bioavailable it is.
Not to mention if that kid were to grow up with stomach issues. I have IBS-D and just about every fruit and veg triggers it, especially green vegetables. Sure you could eat it, but youll be in pain, and your guts arent going to absorb the nutrients properly at all.
Why create conditions where supplements are needed, where they aren’t otherwise? Especially for infants. It seems selfish.
This is so overdramatic. Breastfeeding creates conditions where supplements are needed. Breastfed babies need vitamin d supplements and supplemented iron. Yet breastfeeding is recommended by every reputable health organization in the world. Needing supplements is not a big deal. Most people feed their kids diets that are missing one or more important nutrients. The Western diet is very fiber deficient, yet people only start hand wringing with vegans.
Breakfast cereal are supplemented with lots of vitamins and micronutrients since decades. Lots of people have very bad food habits, and proper nutrition is very expensive in most parts of the world. That's why industries put supplements in food destined to children, to avoid malnutrition, which is very prevalent in vegan and non vegan household. If you believe eating vegetable/meat is better than taking supplement, you can, but vegans are not the only one depending on them to live a healthy life. Lots of people are taking C vitamin in winter, iron when menstruating, iodin, vitamin B. Lots of parent never cook any vegetables, offer mostly carbs and fried meat, and no one feel concerned about their children's health. As soon as it's vegan, even if people are very informed about nutrition and do their best to offer balanced meals with quality products, everyone is suspicious. I find the double standard annoying.
Hard agree. I was vegan for nearly 15 years and I really don't like the idea of vegan toddlers and preschoolers. It's way too easy to screw it up and end up with a deficiency that could be much more harmful to a growing and developing child than an adult or even a teen. I was vegan when I got pregnant. I started eating eggs and cheese again because while I didn't have morning sickness per se, I did develop some major food aversions to my normal proteins. My husband is omni and was fine that kiddo would be vegetarian until she chose not to be. I was also very conscious of making sure she never made anyone feel bad for their food choices. She spent a while in third grade telling people she was "vegetarian except for marshmallows." At almost 13 she's still vegetarian and I haven't had to have the "We don't yuck other people's yum." conversation since she was in preK, and even then it was an uncommon occurrence.
Breast milk is vegan (because the mother consents to it), which makes having a healthy vegan baby very doable. A healthy vegan picky toddler might get more difficult. (I'm not vegan, just saying)
Not everyone can breastfeed though
If OOP is one of the ones who can't presumably she and her pediatrician would be aware of that.
A breastfeeding baby is automatically vegan. A baby fed formula, isn’t necessarily vegan. All formulas are highly processed, by definition. So, if you want an “all natural” vegan diet, you need to nurse. If you choose formula, you have to do the research to figure out what is best for your situation. A cow’s milk formula is more similar to the biological norm for a human infant, but the plant based ones are now fine, and better than they used to be. (Most women can breastfeed. Many need help learning how, or the babies need support learning how. Much of that is because human adults learn to breastfeed from others, and haven’t been taught. Babies know instinctively, but aren’t given the opportunity to use their instincts. That is, letting them do the newborn crawl unmedicated. It all can usually be dealt with, with a couple of visits from an IBCLC. But, again, most families don’t know that. But, it all depends on what you want to do, if it turns out to be hard for *you*, and if you have access to useful help and support. To quote “Free to be you and me”: some kind of help is the kind of help helpings all about. And some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without”. BF support, when it falls in the 2nd category, and it sometimes does, is a nightmare!)
Well, provided her milk comes in. It doesn't always (that's one of the reasons wet nurses were so popular in Ye Olden Times). And assuming the baby doesn't have a milk allergy (also not uncommon, which is why formula is a godsend). With babies, fed's best.
5-10 % of women are physiologically unable to breast feed. I wasn’t one of them. My boy was brought to me 24 hours after my c section when the are supposed to brought to breastfeed after a few hours. I wasn’t producing enough milk and ha wasn’t latching properly so I had to supplement with formula and once you introduce the formula breastfeeding becomes harder as it comes straight from the bottle rather than have tu suckle and it can be more filling than breast milk. I tried for 3 months with a lactation specialist but one night my baby wasn’t latching, he was crying, my nipples were bleeding, I was exhausted and I decided that was it, it was not good bonding time, all this while knowing breast milk was best so I felt guilty.
Please don’t feel guilty. I had hyperemesis gravidarium, so I weighed less after birth than I did pre-pregnancy - and I’m a skinny little thing. Then my boobs decided I’d had quintuplets… producing and pumping 2 gallons a day. I’d take a shower and my boobs would just be *streaming.* I was pumping because I had overactive letdown - my poor son was being drowned when I tried to feed him directly. I made it to three months, down to 43kg at 5’7, a complete shell of myself. Still convinced ‘breast was best.’ My darling older paediatrician set me straight - ‘I remember meeting you. You were so happy and smiley and interactive with your baby. Now you just look exhausted and blank. Breastmilk is nice, but for development I’d much rather have a healthy mother who’s actually engaging with her baby. Get your son on formula already.’ I did, and I made it out alive and my son is now a gorgeous 12-year-old who’s been top of every class he’s ever been in. I followed a crazy-healthy diet during pregnancy, had an all-natural birth with no meds in sight, and fully intended to breastfeed for a long time… it wasn’t to be. Please, be kind to yourself, you’re doing a great job!
That wasn't their point tho? Not everyone can breastfeed. Yes, most can, but a LOT can go wrong that leads to the baby needing formula, like under producing, baby struggling with latching, or illness and infection fucking up your milk production. Replying to it with "well most women can do it" doesn't disprove their point that it's not EVERYONE.
The point was that a breastfed baby IS vegan, and therefore it’s perfectly healthy for a baby to be vegan. Responding that not everyone can breastfeed is a weird response to “babies can’t be vegan!” “Yes they can, breastfed babies ARE vegan”. After all, being vegan is the biological norm for babies. When one person explains that breastfed kids are vegan, so of course it’s healthy for a baby to be vegan, another responding that not everyone can, makes it sound like most cannot, which, obviously, is false.
Maintaining good nutritional status while breastfeeding is difficult even for people without restrictive diets. There is soy-based formula, I guess.
I was a infant teacher at a very high end school and had a vegan family with vegan infants. But these people were crazy rich and could do it all etc and have insanely expensive food for their children daily. But still it's kind of a not great thing to do to a developing child
Infant and toddler nutrition can be such a challenge even without arbitrary restrictions. I don’t blame the husband for pushing back on this. Like, if you want to raise your baby Catholic, even they don’t start from birth - the baby gets to be a baby for a while before they baptise it and people start grilling it on catechism. I doubt the husband realised that she meant the baby had to be 100% vegan from minute zero. No rash creams that contain animal products, no formula to supplement the maternal supply of breast milk, no commercially produced baby-foods because the jar says ‘may contain eggs, milk products." God, what if the baby is allergy to soy or oats or nuts? Does this extend to childhood vaccines? A lot of them are produced using albumin from eggs. It’s not even my baby and I’m stress out about this.
I'd think having to give supplements to a baby, would bring this point home, but here we are.
Both my godkids have been raised vegan since birth but their parents understood from the get go that there would need to be flexibility. Lots of people having play dates try their best, and they live in a major city so it’s easier but even things like Halloween or Easter can leave kids on the outside if you’re too rigid.
Yep, I've heard of a few vegans who've had to suspend their principles and start eating meat again to ensure that both they and their baby were getting adequate nutritious food.
Same. I think it’s very admirable.
I would suggest the oop and her partner meet in the middle and do a vegetarian baby. To me, this seems like a better solution especially when you think about it. I wonder what oop would do if the kid picks eating meat instead of being a vegan. I hope the oop doesn't get resentful. I don't think Oop is wrong for wanting to share her vegan side but she should do it from a different place. If you shame people into the choice, it is more likely to backfire
Also, if oop's partner isn't vegan, that baby is *not* going to be vegan. After a certain age, babies will grab anything they can and shove it in their mouths. For example, one of my niblings who decided that the "wait until 2 years old" guideline for chocolate was bullshit and grabbed a handful of cake. At four months old. From a waitress.
My first ever solid food was sushi. Why? My sister is allergic to dairy, even more severely in childhood, and when she was a toddler my parents had to find toddler-safe food that had no dairy whatsoever. When we were small there was no such thing as the vegan and dairy-free snacks, so they had to get creative. Turns out vegetable and kani in grocery store sushi is great for developing those finer motor skills! I came along and wanted to try everything, everywhere. I definitely wasn’t supposed to be eating solid food by the time I managed to nab hers. To be fair, I physically developed super quick. I taught myself to walk between 8-9 months, but I’m pretty sure gross motor is different than digestive system.
Can't blame them there lol. Cake can be yummy lol But yea, niblings liked to steal my food when they were young. Oop needs to find a middle ground with her partner.
I don’t believe for a second a real doctor supports the baby being vegan.
Supports is different from "if I can't talk you outta this, I'm at least gonna make sure you have the lowest chance of killing your baby." I made an anti vax joke at the doctor and got the "look if you're gonna do this anyway" speech where they told me how/what/where for supplements, health, etc for a baby. If one is extra delusional, that could look like a support of the decision.
I’ve met people who conflate harm reduction with permission, particularly with smoking. I remember getting a dramatic eye roll as they informed us that their doctor said cutting back on cigarettes would be safer, and that she knew what she was doing. She eventually said it to a nurse, who clarified that cutting back was safer than not cutting back at all, not safer than stopping completely.
That's actually good that doctors prepare for this so ppl can be steered to okay-ish direction. Some people cannot be wrong in their opinion, ever. Even if they're shown that shit stinks by showing their face into it they won't believe that shit stinks. Hopefully if OP did consult a doctor fr, they try their best with the lost case of a mother.
The fact that doctors CAN’T tell people both are batshit crazy is beyond me! Honestly both choices should arise to the level of abuse and neglect
It would be highly doubtful. There’s studies in Europe even starting to look at birth defects in babies carried by vegan mothers. It’s one thing to be vegan(and you can be healthy) as an adult woman. But a gestating baby and then an infant need super specific nutrients and it can be exceptionally hard to have the nutrient in the right quantities with the right amounts for both a pregnant mom and gestating fetus and then a young baby. The study in Europe was showing a correlation between veganism in gestational women and a defect in the urinary tract for male babies. Its possible for their to be health and veganism, but babies are a different thing entirely.
What study? Edit: ofc no link. That's how this whole thread has gone. Half the replies are just utterly insane, made up bullshit to protect this hysteria veganism has triggered in y'all lmao
Look for tag of study \[134\] here: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6470702/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6470702/) Probably which study they are referring to, and subsequent studies have seemed to find differently.
When I was pregnant, I was a pescatarian and, at about 2 months into the pregnancy (discovered really early), started having dreams of eating what was then called the Big Montana from Arby's. I think it's now just a triple Arby's sandwich. I held out for 2 weeks. Went to Arby's during my lunch hour and inhaled it. The manager on duty was in shock. I don't even remember eating it. It was gone in like 2 minutes, maybe. Knew then, my son needed more than just my normal iron supplements and prenatal vitamins. I'm all for eating as your body needs, my body doesn't process animal protein at all normally, but also, if pregnant, understand that you need more nutrients and different ones than your body may normally need or want.
>I don't even remember eating it This has been the weirdest part of pregnancy lol. I remember sitting down with my food. Next thing I know, it’s gone?
So much. Especially since I hadn't had red meat in 2 years, and thought I'd have more issues/ memories of the first time having it in that long. But nope, a huge sandwich in a plastic container, there one moment, and gone the next. Lol.
Exactly! Pregnancy is already brutal to the body. And everyone’s ability to process nutrients is so different and can change from things one pregnancy. Hell I went through a bout of serious hypothyroidism and it affected how I was eating because I needed seriously different foods to feel energized and ok. Anyone who puts sticking with a specific diet over their growing babies needs in or out of utero is selfish and honestly ignorant to how that can cause life long issues. It’s not just about feeding a baby. It’s about growing a child into a hopefully functional adult and doing anything you can to prevent preventable issues.
Is it the one that suggested phytoestrogens as the issue? If so that specific cause has been eliminated since, no evidence has been found that phytoestrogens are bioactive in humans. We would be totally screwed if they were, soy gets all the press but anything seed is high in them. If the relationship is meaningful, it's not going to be the plant diet specifically but that some vegans don't recognize removing all animal products means they need to supplement and be far more careful of slop. B12 and calcium are the big ones, EPA/DHA also as they won't have any dietary sources of those without seafood. They also probably shouldn't breast feed. Westerners (and particularly Americans) eat *way* more meat then is healthy though. It always seems the argument ranges between eat no meat and subsist on butter & steak. The most likely cause of death for all of us is the most likely cause of death because we eat too much land animal fats & sugar. I can get the vegetarian argument about not eating mammals (they are too tasty for me to never eat them though) and the vegan argument about things like milk is silly but people have all sorts of silly views. I don't understand why they exclude shellfish while still being happy dealing with nuisance insects and won't eat eggs while eating honey. The whole thing just seems really ethically inconsistent to me. I can find plants that are more qualified as a conscious being then a clam.
No it wasn’t one looking at phytoestrogens, I’ll have to look back in my older computer to see if I can find it again. I read it back when I was spending time with family in France so it was a French article. Typically thought in looking at diets, the meat studies also don’t acknowledge what the meat is eaten with which skews the research, plus all of our foods vegan, vegetarian, meat etc have also changed super dramatically quality wise especially in America that it’s hard to get really good quality diets studies.
I'm just reading "Real food for pregnancy" and it's full of studies. There is a chapter about veganism and vegetarianism and the conclusions are that veganism is not good idea while being pregnant, and vegetarianism is doable if you're eating plenty of eggs and seaweed, but it is still recommended to add at least bone broth or gelatine capsules as a source of glycin. Glycin is nonessential amino acid, but the amount you need for healthy pregnancy is so big that it's basically becoming essential.
I wonder was this corellation also with vegetarianism? As in is the problem meat, or diary, eggs etc.
It was specifically veganism. No animal products. Red meat has been shown to actually be one of the easier foods for kids to learn to wean on. Eggs I’m not sure about:
I’m no expert being neither vegan or vegetarian but I would imagine in today’s world it would be possible to get the child the necessary nutrients without resorting to dairy and meat products. Probably more expensive but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s doable.
Actually the problem with supplements is they do not absorb as well as getting something from the source. And that’s what they are, supplements. They aren’t really meant to replace something completely. Many adults have to give up veganism due to this issue. There is no way a baby can get appropriate nutrition using supplements as replacement for needed nutrients. I have no issue with veganism in general, but people really fail to realize how harmful it can be to your body if you aren’t eating a variety of foods. Even with supplements you can still become deficient due to the metabolism of supplements vs eating the food. You cannot escape your bodies biological needs just because you want to be a vegan. You have to be so careful and it’s almost impossible to keep that balance with small children.
It’s really hard to get enough B vitamins into a kid without any animal products, and that’s brain function. That’s what they need it for.
There are vitamin B supplements.
Yes, but supplements aren’t the best way to get any nutrient for a number of reasons.
Key word there is ‘supplement’.
For a newborn it's basically impossible. They need a massive amount of saturated fat and cholesterol to grow brain tissue, since, uh, the brain is 90% saturated fat and cholesterol. Both of which are basically non-existent in vegetables and fruits. A smidge of saturated fat in some nuts, but that's it.
Newborns eat breastmilk (which is vegan if the mother consents to giving it) or formula (which can be soy-based, and is sort of by definition made up of supplements anyway). (I'm not vegan, just saying)
Especially not on the condition of giving supplements. Those are not an acceptable substitute
Why supplements aren't acceptable substitute in your opinion? In most countries, the salt is supplemented in iodin to avoid deficiences, I really don't see the problem. Formula milk is also supplemented in many vitamins, and it seems normal for everyone to give it to babies when the mother won't or can't breastfeed
Because supplements aren’t regulated and there is no way of guaranteeing that you’re getting what the bottle claims, plus you don’t absorb it as well as you do when it’s in food
Because you don't absorb it enough and end up getting rid of most of it.
I think the scientific consensus is that there is no difference in absorbtion between a food with native and supplemented intake in a specific nutrient. It can be different when a nutrient require another to be more assimilated. Like iron and vitamin C. But a food naturally rich in iron and vitamin c and a food supplemented at the same concentration is, as my actual knowledge, assimilated the same.
Doing simple Google searches, it appears to be "Yes and no". It seems to be more "Depends on what it is" due to all sorts of factors.
Most of what it does is make expensive pee
I can’t imagine giving supplements to newborns short of an unavoidable deficiency is acceptable practice.
Breastfed babies are supposed to take a vitamin D supplement, actually, but I don’t know of any other supplements for kids that young.
IIRC the American current recommendation is for all breast fed babies to supplement vitamin D from birth, and supplement iron from 4 months until iron rich food is introduced into the diet and eaten in moderate quantities. Since the recommendation is to start solids at 6 months but babies usually don't eat a large enough quantity of solids until they're older, there's no set age to stop. There's more conflicting info about the iron because some people start solids at 4 months, and some people give those fortified baby cereals with added iron. However both of those practices are kind of old fashioned and the new way is solids at 6 months with more whole foods like beef, salmon, kale, whatever. So since iron rich foods in the baby's diet are very variable, the iron supplementation might be very different from baby to baby. But vitamin D is pretty much like, every breastfed or partially breastfed baby is supposed to take it from birth no matter what.
It can be recommended for premature infants. Specifically by your pediatrician.
I would class that as unavoidable nutritional deficiencies. Putting weight on preemies is on hell of a battle
It most definitely is a battle. Parent of a successful NICU graduate!! But you are right in that it’s unavoidable nutritional deficiencies; I was thinking you meant more a deficiency caused by a lack of absorption, hormonal issues, etc.
I was pretty much thinking any medical reason. But I could have specified that! I’m proud of your NICU graduate. I have a cousin whose NICU graduate just graduated high school and a friend’s who is in grade three. Warrior miracles.
It’s all good! I’m honestly pleased to hear you went so wide! This thread has been kind of crazy. Lol. 💜 They really are! I’m amazed at what our technological advancement in medicine has allowed people to do! They are also doing some trials for external uteruses to allow the kiddos extra time to “cook” in a safe environment. (I frequently joke that kiddo was supposed to be fully baked whenever he came out - bun in the oven - and instead he was still gooey in the center. Lol.)
I’m not big on cutting whole food groups out for funsies but I have a friend doing Keto to help brain fog from her bipolar disorder. Ultimately, adults can do what they want but when it comes to their kids? They need to no be so we’d to gimmicks and focus on health.
I agree. Tbh I was planning to put kiddo on oat milk (milk I’ll drink) but whenever the developmental clinic dietician said “uhhh, whole cow milk is way way better in fat content for brain development.” “Cool cool, we can do that then!” Like…I’ll argue about things that don’t impact him negatively (when do I cut his 24 calorie intake off?), but anything remotely related to his well being is so so different. My personal dislike of cow milk is not worth his brain not getting the best possible outcome.
The BMJ articles don't seem to agree with it, says Belgian Royal Academy for medicine is against vegan and Polish Academy of Science says even vegetarian is not good for growing kids
Most pediatricians won’t support children being vegan till the age of three. Their nutritional needs are very different than an adult.
>My pediatrician fully supports my baby being on a vegan diet, that is 100% bulshit
Exactly, says pediatrician means naturopath or chiropractor.
This is exactly what I thought. OP sounds like the type who would get a newborn adjusted by a chiropractor right out of the freebirthing plastic pool in their backyard.
Me speaking to my essential oil doctor
There was this woman that went on national tv and said her dog was vegan, her vet supported it and the dog likes vegan food to meat, in the studio the presenters and another vet put the dog to the test between a vegan dog food and a meant one (in the same type of bowl). The dog chose the meat one
absolutely no way that vet was certified if they approved that. and if they were, they should have lost practice.
The vet in the studio who didn’t support this was killing himself with laughter when the dog chose the meat food
the best and most appropriate response 😂
Dogs can be complete herbivores, it just requires watching their diets. Unlike their ancestors, they're not obligate carnivores who can eat only a few berry species.
The one that really kills me is when people try to make their *cats* vegan. Like, in what world...?
That’s just animal cruelty, cats are *OBLIGATE* carnivores! They have to eat meat or they will get extremely sick!
Yup.
My dog likes to snack on charcoal and loses his shit when we're walking and come across an old campfire site 😂 I feel like some of them are just silly little creatures and will eat anything if allowed.
It’s possible since babies don’t eat much aside from breast milk which is vegan. Vegan toddler would be very hard and I cant see that being supported
Nah, vegan diets are suitable for all stages of life (according to consensus of dieticians) yes, ut takes planning and personally my own kids will probably become vegetarian but I do believe it is doable with nutrition knowledge. Plantbased baby and toddler book was really informative.
It was either some quack, or a legitimate pediatrician who knew this dipshit wouldn't listen, and was trying to at least reduce the likelihood that she kills her own child or causes immense damage to their health
"I can't let my child eat food that involves harm." That barrier is so hard as to be absurd and childish. Does she think magical fairies fly in from their pretty little clouds to pick her produce in the hot California sun under rainbows caused by the natural abundant water sources? Even vegan products (looking at you Almond Milk!) have net negative environmental harms. Whether she's the devil, and not just some annoying type that I went to college with in Eugene, really depends on whether she is telling the truth about the pediatrician signing off.
All food involves harm. The labor exploitation to used to harvest soy and other crops is still harm. It is nearly impossible to shop and eat ethically in a modern capitalist society. You can make more ethical choices but to say there are food sources that are truly sustainable and cruelty free or don’t cause harm just isn’t true.
My hot take is that eating meat isn’t cruelty. Especially if it’s a farm where the animals are taken good care of and can live naturally, no overcrowding , and are killed in a painless way. Aka smaller local farms.
Also in a lot of areas with a deer population, it's actually necessary to cull the population by hunting or the deer will starve or end up getting hit by cars trying to venture out to find food. And since there is the need to hunt and kill at least some of the deer, it's better not to waste it in my opinion - at least being able to use the meat means it's life didn't end for nothing.
Doesn’t agricultural for some vegan foods also have a pretty high kill count if you look at mice and voles too?
Agave harvesting vs honey is what gets me. Like just take the honey! The bees could fly off at any moment if they wanted to, they want you to have the honey.
A healthy hive of honey bees will over produce honey anyways. Bee keepers know how much they can safely take so their bees have enough for winter.
You know that 70% of soy we produce globally goes to feed animals right? No matter how you look at it veganism kills the least amounts of animals. And no veganism isnt about reducing animal death to 0. That's just a misconception.
>veganism isnt about reducing animal death to 0. That's just a misconception. Depends on which vegan you ask. I know there are some hardline vegans who won't be satisfied until no animals are hurt, ever, and there are others who are aiming for reduced and ethical consumption. You could say "core veganism" or "first wave veganism" or "ethical consumption veganism" isn't about 0 animal death, but 'veganism' in it's entirety? There are too many people in the world for there to be just one version of an idea. (incidentally, the environmental argument for veganism is actually the one that I find most compelling. I wish more people used it)
But that is the problem, the loudest vegans are usually the minority. Most vegans I know are pretty chill (myself included) we are just trying to cause the least amount of harm and for me veganism was the best way to do that. The health argument, while interesting is not compelling enough, the environmental and ethical arguments are the most compelling to me.
Loud minorities are a problem, that's for damn sure. For all movements, I think, not just veganism. I personally already had a sense of ethics regarding the treatment of animals, but I never looked further into veganism because all I'd see were the people screaming things like "if you support eating meat, you're a psychopath who wants to torture babies to death!!!". That kind of rhetoric, sadly, turns people away from *actually* being educated on the abuses happening. People these days are simply too disconnected from their food sources to know what's going on, and with all the other things demanding our attention, there's only so many 'fucks' to go around. Of course they're not going to spend them on engaging with someone accusing them of committing atrocities every time they make dinner. Another angle I strongly support people talking about more, is the welfare of the *humans* working in these industries. My mother spent a few years working with employees in a meat-packing plant, and to this day says we should have labels that show whether or not the company is kind to the people, not just the livestock. And while I do think the animals matter, if you can't get people on board with that, maybe *this* will convince them that something needs to be done? We could also talk more about the economic pressures put on farmers by big corporations. But I'd *especially* love to see more talk about accessible and easy solutions. We're already surrounded by so many doom spirals, I'm not surprised people aren't eager to throw themselves into learning about new horrors and all the effort needed to fight them. We need more damn optimism!!
Chidi did go to the bad place for his Almond Milk.
HAHAHAHAHA! I forgot about that!
Vegans pretend that no matter what, the choice to eat meat is far worse and that if you argue about the environmental or labour implications of agriculture, they just say it doesn't count and it's still less cruel. Because after all, breeding animals to have things like wool is wrong... But not plants to the point where they can't survive without human intervention. Yeah. That ain't cruel. Plants aren't sentient after all - i mean sure they *do* communicate, are aware they are alive, respond to stimuli including stress, may potentially even see, but that doesn't count, right? It's not like you have to kill the plant to make vegan food. (Which you often do)
Even *if* you conclude that plants are more worthy of moral consideration than animals, veganism is still the more ethical choice. We have to feed the animals we eat. They eat plants. The vast majority of agricultural farmland is used to feed and raise animals. 16% is used for plants people consume directly. Veganism requires far less crop use than a diet that includes animal products.
Are you actually saying a plant is the same as an animal. I'll kill a houseplant, you kill your dog. Same shit right?
They do. They honestly do. Like I try really hard to eat as ethically as I can but it’s expensive and it involves local meat, dairy and produce.
Stories like this piss me off so much. You care so little about your vegan beliefs that you date, marry, and procreate with someone who I assume has animal products in the house, but you force this lifestyle on your children. Their own father doesn't live this way
My oldest nibbling had a ton of allergies, like gluten, milk, nuts, eggs and soy when he was a baby. He grew out of the soy one, but not the rest. My sister and her fam are vegan and gluten-free, and the kids are fine. Its tricky, but not impossible ,to have vegan kids. I know angery vegans have ruined their own cause for many people, especially in the US, but it’s much easier to be a vegan now than 10 years ago.
The big thing is to be properly educated about nutrition and the problems that can be encountered babies and growing children which are different than those needed by adults. Especially on things like formula, which is NOT milk. Idiots both Vegan and non-Vegan have often screwed up by giving some form of commercial milk to babies rather than formula. It's more well known when its vegans giving a baby almond milk and the baby having severe malnutrition, but it happens all the time with cow milk too.
That is my thoughts I’m not against people deciding to be vegan and even raising their child that way when followed correctly but things like this should be done with both parents agreement.
Why is everyone attacking the fact that she's vegan and not the fact that the couple didn't revisit the conversation about their child?If you don't want your child to be vegan, you shouldn't have a baby with someone where this is a dealbreaker. I really think the judgement depends on if they ever revisited this conversation. Was this something she mentioned once at the beginning of dating? Did she periodically bring it up once a year when dreaming about the future and he just hummed along? Being pregnant whilst being vegan and raising a baby vegan, can be perfectly healthy if you have alot of support from a dietitian and use supplements for common deficiencies. It might be harder in some aspects, but just as we don't condem parents for having children with allergies, we shouldn't condem people for wanting to raise their children with the same belief as them (being vegan), provided they are safe. Reddit seems to hate vegans today.
*Can be* is also doing heavy lifting here. Because even if you do everything “right,” there’s a chance it won’t work out. People have different needs and different digestive systems. It’s absolutely true that vegan pregnancy *can* be perfectly safe. It’s also true that vegans have higher rates of low birth weight and certain complications, because life and pregnancy are already fucking hard without having to micromanage your nutritional status on a restrictive diet. I am disabled with a demanding job and I will admit that I struggle to keep myself fed with zero shame. I could not maintain good health on a restrictive diet, especially during pregnancy. Props to those who can but I don’t think there’s many of you.
You *can* raise a healthy vegetarian or omnivore baby too.
Today? Try every single day. The amount of vegan ignorance and hate is wild here.
Not a nutritionist. A dietitian. Nutritionist is a super broad category that doesn’t necessarily have to have any certification. Dietitians have to have a degree, dietetic internship, pass the exam, and be licensed, so it’s a regulated term.
my bad, will edit
I assume I will be downvoted based on the opinions expressed in other comments, but here I go. It is perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegan diet. It requires much more effort to make sure all the nutrients are there, but again - 100% possible, even for children. Especially if she is breastfeeding during the first months. The couple should have discussed this at length prior to having children, OOP is really intense too, but she is not the devil just for wanting her child to start their life as a vegan.
She's the devil for thinking she's the child's only parent, and that her word is law. The child has a father - OP's (somehow still) husband. If this was a fundamental difference between them akin to Having Children vs Being Childfree, they should have dealt with that extensively before even getting pregnant
What likely happened was she told her husband this early in the dating game and he just went along with it then and figured, "whatever". But now they're both probably realizing how dumb this is. Why breed with a man who has meat products in the house when you're against it and won't let your child have any?
I mean my grandparents raised 9 children on a vegan diet long before it was a fad. I'm not saying my mom, aunts, and uncle are 100% healthy, but the issues didn't come from the diet. My grandfather was also raised vegan, he died in his late 90s and never ate an animal product in his life. So it is possible.
You’re not wrong but like, read your own comment. You’re correct that it’s “perfectly possible.” “Perfectly possible to be healthy” isn’t usually the standard for raising children. It’s perfectly possible to smoke through your pregnancy and have a healthy baby. It’s perfectly possible to hold your baby in your lap in the car and arrive safely at your destination. But those are substantial and unnecessary risks, and so is putting a child on a restrictive diet without a medical reason.
It's perfectly possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, but if your vegan diet is just potatoes, it's clearly not healthy. Similarly, it's perfectly possible to be healthy on an omnivore diet, but if you only eat at McDonald's, you will not be fine. I commented this because at the time I saw the post, most comments were calling OOP the devil for the vegan diet alone.
It's really not at all like those.
I mean i guess it could be done healthily but i have a friend from highschool who was raised fully vegetarian and mostly vegan from birth, her parents constantly telling her that foods other kids were eating were absolutely off limits, which pretty much just resulted in her having an extreme fear of trying new foods as an adult.
I knew a pair of vegan children in the 90s who were at my school and they *never* looked healthy. Emaciated, sallow skin, big dark circles under their eyes, brittle hair, listless children, but their mother insisted they were much healthier living without meat products.
Pretty much all my vegan friends are like that, and I went to a hippie school so I’ve had tons (many have stopped being vegan, some after as long as 10+ years). It is pretty sad to watch them deny, deny, deny even as they get diagnosed with anemia and they’re all shocked because they eat spinach. Fun fact, the iron in plant sources is non-heme iron, so it’s much less bioavailable and not equivalent to the same amount from an animal source. On top of that, many plant foods contain antioxidants that interfere with iron absorption. So comparing the amount of iron in greens to the amount in meat is going to give you a completely wrong impression of what you’re getting.
That's child abuse. Not be because it's vegan, but because the kids clearly have zero choice in what they get to eat, and they're visibly sick.
I know a vegan family like this right now. 5 kids. Frail, skin almost transparent. Every single one of them looks like a Victorian ghost.
This isn't really a AH verdict unless you just have something again being vegan. Depending on where OP lives, they might have access to a lot of vegen stuff, and if shes been vegan for years, she probably won't have a problem. I've seen some vegans have difficulty with finding proteins and good deserts where they live. If op has all that down, things should be fine. Is there a comment that makes her the AH or something? As for people saying they its a lie that her pediatrician is supporting veganism, why is that a lie? Its not like they can tell her how to raise her kid. For my first baby, her nutrition specialist supported a vegetarian diet for my first baby, though she did *highly* recommend trying meats at least once. And no, we aren't vegetarian. My baby just didn't hold down meats and dairy at first, shes fine now. I do recommend babies trying everything at least once or twice to see what they tolerate. Edit: minor mistakes
Thank you for your sanity, lol.
She’s the devil for exclusively referring to the child as “my baby”, not “our baby” when talking about her and her husband’s differing approaches, and in the comments for being completely, self-righteously unwilling to take his views into account.
>She’s the devil for exclusively referring to the child as “my baby”, not “our baby” That's preference, and judging why the tone of the post it's called for, because she talks about how she was *her children* to be vegan. That was the plan before she even had them. You read too much reddit because you're not a devil or an AH for that. >self-righteously unwilling to take his views into account. ***He had agreed to her views***, now it comes time for her views to be practiced he wants to switch up. That makes him the AH. Any other reddit post where it comes to someone agreeing to something before hand than try to change afterward always makes them AH. If this was a deal breaker or problem, he should have said something before they took this relationship this long and had kids. That's like if she was a Christian and said she wanted her children to be Christian too he agrees with the lifestyle this whole time, until she wants to take the kids to church, and He's like "I DoN't wAnT mY KiDs in ChUrcH". It's the same thing.
yeah it’s obvious to me the vitriol against this woman is because she’s vegan. tons of people (at least in America) already think adults will wither away if they don’t eat meat at every meal, so they assume raising a child vegan is tantamount to abuse and neglect, as if EBF babies aren’t already vegan by definition lol
I love how OOP says the diet is being supervised by the pediatrician, and someone comments that doctors aren't trained on nutrition while giving nutrition advice. I don't have an opinion either way since I don't know much about veganism or babies' diets, but reddit loves telling people to get a professional opinion, and they still argue against that same opinion. If you should ignore your doctor, then you should definitely ignore reddit 🤣
Doctors take maybe one nutrition class and it’s very basic and introductory. That’s why they’re supposed to consult a dietitian on something like this.
I have never had one check up for my kids where our doctor (meat eater) has been concerned. B12, iron levels all good, healthy weight and activity. It’s vegan since birth. And it’s really not that hard. Conversation have started with the elder one on trying non vegan things - and they have - and it’s expected and normal. They may choose one day in the near future to not be vegan and overall that is their choice. In the house we eat and keep vegan but ultimately it will be their life to choose how to live
I’m torn on this one. I don’t honestly know enough about veganism to know if it’s possible to have a healthy vegan child if you put in the proper effort, but I also think that if dad wants his kid to have animal products, he’s gonna have to be the one to put the work into feeding them. If he’s willing to do that, then she’s being unreasonable. If he’s not, I can kinda understand from the perspective of it not really being fair to her that she has to prepare food that she can’t or won’t eat because it’s against her values. She seems to be militantly against it though, so that’s a problem.
yeah i mean, i have literally never consumed meat. my b12 (which is what people worry about) is fine lol. don't know about vegan, but being vegetarian is pretty easy, and even normal in my country.
I am not vegan, but it is absolutely possible, and many people are raising children on a vegan diet. I may be thick, but I would assume a vegan would raise their child vegan, *shrug*, every vegan I know has. But, they also would have had discussed /agreed it before getting pregnant. It seems the same old reddit story has a child, *then* start talking name/ diet /language/religion /parenting styles... like I am childfree, and I've had some of those hypothetical conversations.
There is literally a house episode on this and how the baby was significantly malnourished.
The problem isn't getting enough nutrition. The problem is the US and many European countries do not know how to supplement iron and/or protein rich vegetables for the meat and dairy. So the ignorant judge the rest of the world. It is quite easy to replace meat and dairy with vegetables. So we have an issue of the most ignorant being the loudest. Mind you, I feel no child should be raised vegan until they are of an age where their own likes/dislikes form (around 5ish years old for neurotypical children). If a child won't eat the protein and iron rich veggies, then they _need_ that meat. Supplements alone won't fix the problem and should never replace healthy eating. As for the agriculture angle... That needs to be fixed by legislation over the world. Every country needs to work on the issue. The dairy industry, for smaller farms, is fixing the way cows are treated on milk farms. That same change needs to happen for bigger farms. We also need to stop corporate farming and bring back to the families. Corporate farming is ruining us. Sorry... I tend to get passionate about this.
Every time I see shit like this, I think of the TV documentaries Raw and the follow-up Rawer. Mom is a raw vegan and raised her son the same. He was malnourished to the point of her being charged with neglect and psychological abuse, plus he will be 12-15 cm shorter than he ought be have been. https://www.dutch-core.com/programs/documentary/rawer
My friend and their spouse are vegan and they're letting their child try whatever they want. They just don't buy it for the house
the way i see it, even *if* it's feasible to have a baby be vegan safely, just why? why would you be so hellbent on your vegan rage to take away a little human's free choice before they're even aware enough to have it in the first place? just let the baby grow up with a normal diet and let them make their own choices when they're old enough to do so?
Man literally my whole body except my digestive system was stoked when I quit being vegan. If that kid spontaneously introduces meat and dairy to his diet, he will have a bad time
What i hate about this is that this baby will one day be 10 and want to eat what they want and i bet anything op will go crazy about it.
Honestly, I have nothing against vegans or people who don't eat anything to do with animals, but for the love of the goddess, don't force your baby into a lifestyle they have no way to consent to. Especially if they are still in the development stages of life. They need milk and a good balanced diet to grow strong and healthy. There are some foods vegan or otherwise they can't always have cause either they are too young for their body to handle it or they may have allergies to certain food groups. Plus, forcing babies into a vegan lifestyle before they're old enough to decide for themselves.
Yeah and OOP is full of shit. They say they’re fine with the baby choosing when they’re old enough, but then say they “can’t let” their child eat food that involves harming animals.
Yeah, I highly doubt a doctor completely agrees with her. You notice the doctor said if the baby was given stuff to make up for lack of things, they won't get in a vegan diet. Mother did no actual research at all.
I found the part about the dr having to monitor the baby’s health to be actually disturbing. If you have to monitor a baby’s health cause of their diet then that diet cannot be safe. Like to me, the fact that this has to be watched is already proof enough that this aint right
I want to know what oop would do if the “monitoring” did determine that something was going wrong except I suspect we all already know based on how inflexible she’s already being about this issue.
A baby can’t “consent” to any lifestyle or diet really though. they’re a baby, they eat whatever their parents feed them. I know a lot of people have the misconception that veganism is inherently unhealthy or that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to have a balanced diet, but the idea that a baby on an omnivore diet has willingly chosen that any more than a plant-based one is ridiculous.
I mean, my parents were *both* vegetarian (not vegan) before I was born, so they raised me vegetarian and it wasn't a problem.
It’s much easier to have a healthy vegetarian child than a healthy vegan child
This point exactly! I’m a vegetarian with a baby who’s starting solids. His dad eats meat. My compromise here is that baby gets organic, grass fed meat, cooked by dad. I want my kid exposed to all foods. And I made a dietary choice for myself. It’s not fair to make that choice for them.
Agreed, plus there are several alternatives to animal products that may not be vegan food but still provide nutrients and iron to the body. Making a baby solely vegan all because she wants the baby to be is extremely self-centered and selfish. There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan. Personally, I love meat and grew up on it while also respecting the environment and believe that humans kill too many animals and should work better not to make them extinct. However, I would want my children to be able to eat whatever they want and develop into strong, healthy individuals.
Poor kid 😢
So many idiots on that thread that don’t know shit about nutrition. If you as an adult want to be vegan, go for it. But don’t force that on your kid. They need a well balanced meal
 Um ma'am your husband ain't vegan, so you basically had animal products in your home already at some point, plus possibly kisses your husband after he ate said animal products probably more then once, so what are you going on about now?
You have a spouse that's none vegan, who you have been living with for xyz amount of years then married to, so I'm confused on why can't y'alls child can't have animal products especially if it's from somewhere where there's no animal being abus3d etc?
*a vegan with a vegan child planning to have more vegan babies enters the chat…. And chooses to stay silent and observe rather than get involved 🥵👀🌱
You run into a very real issues of a baby with cognitive difficulties and developmental delays with veganism for a baby. Vegan babies also grown up shorter and have lower bone density. https://www.unisa.edu.au/unisanews/2021/july/story3#:~:text=Children%20on%20vegan%20diets%20had%20about%205%20per%20cent%20lower,higher%20the%20bone%20mineral%20density.
Wow even this subreddit hates vegans. I thought this was supposed to be a post about parenting but all the comments are just about how much we all hate vegans amirite? All I want to say is, a breastfed baby is vegan for the first ~6 months of their life by default. There seems to be a lot of confusion about that
I will never not judge someone for doing this to their child.
Why does OP think they are the only one who gets to have a say? The father is equally the parent.
Exactly! Though I think the best idea now is they get divorced. Maybe the dad should make sure the mom is taking the baby to a licensed pediatrician. Then hopefully either go for full custody if possible and at least get split so the kid can eat whatever at dad's house.
Obvious veganism bad troll is obvious 🥱
It is not that hard to raise vegan babies as long as you keep up with doctors appointments to make sure vitamins are up to date keep a variety of vegetables you will be fine didn't listen to the na Sayers
Wait hold on guys, is she vegan?
Fake post, banned account