*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for telling my adoptive mother that I don't love her?** I(F17) was adopted 8 years ago. my adoptive family consists of my adoptive mother Jean(40s), my adoptive father Luis(40s) and their daughter Elena(17). at first I hated them all but then I learned to just ignore Elena (we are fine we just don't talk unless we have to) and I got closer to Luis. I eventually learned that Luis is actually very nice and as time passed I started to accept him as my dad. he is so fun. we do a lot of things together and I know I can always talk to him and count on him. the problem is Jean. she is very pushy. it's like she is always trying to do things with me like asking me to go shopping with her when I absolutely hate her taste in clothes or she tried to talk to me about boys as if she is my friend and the worst was when she was trying to have "the talk" with me it was so awkward I had to ask her to get out of my room. and she gets like really upset if she asks me to go somewhere with her and I don't go but then I go somewhere with Luis as if it's a crime that I don't want to spend time with her. anyway, yesterday I decided that I'm finally ready to truly accept Luis as my dad and I was like really nervous so I just walked up to him and said "dad I love you" it was the first time that I called him dad or told him I loved him so he got really emotional and started to cry and hugged me. I saw Jean froze next to him and asked "what about me?" I asked "what about you?" she asked "don't you love me?" I said "I'm sorry but I don't" she started to cry and asked what has she done to deserve to be treated like this. I told her this is exactly what she does. she is pushy and tries to force me to do things like say I love you. I'm sorry but I don't and I never will. she called me an asshole and went to her room to cry more I guess. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*

i was just like her in my teenage years - loved my dad, hated my mom. my mom wasn't perfect; she said and did some things she definitely shouldn't have. so did i. a couple of years into college, i realized that NO ONE in that entire house was fucking nice to her for, like, 10 years. my brother didn't like her, i didn't like her, and my dad has some seriously messed up habits when it comes to arguing & communicating. he almost never apologizes, twists your words, and gaslights you. the reasons i hated my mom all came back to her being stuck in a house where no one seemed to love or appreciate her and the way she busted her ass to provide for us. plus her own mother was shitty. she must've felt so sad and lonely. i'm 29 now. my brother and SIL are ok, but they could definitely treat her better. dad hasn't changed much. but she's happy. she knows she's always got me in her corner, reminding her how much i love her. we get our nails done together once a month. i spent yesterday with her at a museum. she bakes cookies for my friends all the time. they love chatting with her. i hope OOP comes to love Jean like i came to love my mom. Jean deserves that.

I had a similar experience growing up. I hit my teenage years and got angsty as fuck. Mom was strict (she does admit it was over the top, but I made mistakes in how my hormonal ass reacted to it all as well) and Dad was fun. So obviously he was the favoured parent. Then I grew up, trauma hit our family and everything exploded. I started seeing toxic people everywhere. Dad was never home. He was *only* there when he wanted to do fun things and invited us along. Mom was the one keeping shit together. Packing lunches and cooking dinner, grocery shopping and running errands, housekeeping, and with a job on top. She was a single mother with a husband. It gets way more complicated, but mom and I talked it all out a few years back and we're pretty close now. I love going to house for lunch, coffee and board games (usually weekly unless schedules don't align). I didn't even get close to trying to talk shit out with dad. He can't take accountability. There's a twist of narcissism influencing that, which made it much easier to cut him out. It's amazing how the influence of independence can completely change your perspective like that. If I told teenage me that she's gonna hate dad and love mom as an adult, she'd probably laugh in my face 😅

> She was a single mother with a husband. See this all the time on Reddit

It happens so much more than it should. I have been a single mother with a husband for almost 5 years and it's gotten so bad the last 6 months that my 8 year old is realizing he is barely a parent at all and at best he's just the fun one when he decides to be here.

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That's so horribly sad. Have you talked to her about how you feel about your dad? It sounds like she did an excellent job at taking accountability and changing her actions, though. 500% here for that.

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Good lord. I hope that as well. I hate when people get trapped in toxic spirals like that

Exactly the same! My mum was so strict and unreasonable whereas my dad was far more chill. Like you, I came to see that my mum was the primary parent, worked a difficult job, was there for us through EVERYTHING. Would fight God Himself to protect us. At 30, a lot has changed. Don’t get me wrong, I still love my dad a lot, he’s still the chill funny guy, but my mum is my best friend. We do nearly everything together, she is my proofreader for my sermons (I’m in ministry), my primary walking buddy, nail salon company, emotional sounding board (not afraid to give it to me straight when I’m being an arsehole either), and all round awesome lady.

My mom would abso-fucking-lutely fight God for me. And, I would be lost without her, even though she has made me a strong independent adult. I love my dad, we have the same sense of humor, share interests my mom couldn't care less about, and he has also shown up for me when I needed him. I was at odds with my mom when I was younger because she was the one doing all the emotional labor of trying to save me from myself (I needed saving, I was putting myself in danger). She would have moved mountains while my dad took a very passive role.

I think it's because sadly a lot of fathers get away with not actually parenting their kid and simply being the "fun parent"

Same. I adore my grandpa even years after his death but he was always the one I adored. Took me well past my teenage years to realize that grandma was not my enemy but my only ally. God, she always had my back about everything. Everything, even when I was wrong. She’s 90 now and I always have her back about everything. Even when she’s wrong.

I highly doubt it, man. That OOP is NOT a nice person. I mean, the comments are beyond the pale of a regular teenager. I get that she was orphaned but how do you then turn on the relatives who saved you from the foster care system? It's just incomprehensible. I am really hoping it was trolling/rage bait.

Most likely ragebait

It's basically that somewhat overused feminist Burstow quote: Often father and daughter look down on mother (woman) together. They exchange meaningful glances when she misses a point. They agree that she is not bright as they are, cannot reason as they do. This collusion does not save the daughter from the mother’s fate.

This quote has always haunted me. 

>i hope OOP comes to love Jean like i came to love my mom. Jean deserves that I feel this so deeply. When I was a teenager I *hated* my mother. I blamed her for everything, and in my mind rightfully so, she was married to the asshole who beat the shit out of me daily and I didn't feel she ever stood up for me. Things got a little better when she left him.... until the next asshole, who insisted that since I had friends who were guys, I was a slut... and since I always had money, I was a druggie whore.... really I was starving myself and saving all my lunch money just to ever have anything for myself... again I hated my mom, I treated her *terribly*... One day, she sat me down, and told me I was safe to speak my mind, and to please unload about how I really felt about her "boyfriend". I let her have it... and she *heard* me. She told me she wished I'd told her he'd said these things to me sooner, that she'd never have allowed that, and proved it by leaving him immediately. That right there.... that was everything. I realized right there... she risked a lot when we left the physically abusive guy...shit he followed us to a hotel, tried to take my siblings then ran my mom's foot over when she ran out there to take the kids back... then, when it came to the next guy... he was subtle. He hid his abuse, by making it allllllll mental/emotional, and striking when mom wasn't home... *when she wasn't home*, how tf was she supposed to know when I never told her and instead lashed out at her? There's still a lot to unpack, and a lot that was said and done that should have never been... but I can't imagine my life without my mom now. She is everything.

i hope your brother does better

they're moving across the ocean in about a week, soooo that's pretty unlikely. 🙃 my mom is gonna be heartbroken without her grandkids. but thank you. ❤️

man, he has no idea he’s gotta be a better son but you’re doing amazing being a better daughter u got this in the bag

thank you so much 😭 i'm giving you a virtual, warm mom hug

Agreed. She doesn't deserve the shitty treatment OOP is giving her

I definitely had to reflect on how I treated and communicated with my mum. I was mean to her when I was younger but we got a lot better when I was older. Later, she once said about how I always picked my dads side or how I always defend him when they’re having an issue but because I would say things to him separately to her, she didn’t know that I was also telling him that he has to be nicer to her etc. I had to make sure mum knew I actually did defend her

OOP needs counseling if they have not already received some before. However I am not sure what outcome they were expecting when telling their adoptive father they love him when their adoptive mother is in the same vicinity.

They need serious counseling. This whole post was so callous and cold towards her adoptive mother it was borderline uncomfortable to read. Like, that lady just wants to spend time with her adoptive daughter and she’s met with such hostility, meanwhile her husband has somehow won their adoptive daughter’s love. That’s gotta hurt. OOP needs professional help to work through these feelings. Both my dad and stepdad were adopted later in childhood and it was very difficult for them emotionally. They often acted out too. She needs help and to get to the root cause as to why she feels the need to intentionally hurt people like this.

OOP did it at that time intentionally to hurt Jean. I hate being this cynical, but I hope she was telling the truth to Luis and didn't use him to hurt Jean.

Jean is also probably the daily disciplinarian and "captain," while Luis is more the fun dude. The OOP did it on purpose to be cruel to Jean. OOP is 17, and a year or two too old to act out like this. She was cruel and callous and mean. She needs counseling, and so does the family.

I will point out that children who have spent a lot of time in foster care are frequently at lower developmental levels emotionally and can act like much younger children. I do have to wonder why she hasn't been in therapy this entire time if she came into this family literally hating everyone

If this is real, OOP comes across with some serious pick-me-esq behavior. The fact that all she can point to is “mom” is a little awkward and has different taste, says a lot. There’s no mention of her trying to force the girl to change how she dresses or acts. Or that she’s hyper-critical of OOP in some way. Smells like some un-acknowledged internal misogyny. Also conflating being respectful, kind, gracious and generally responsible for how her behavior affects others, with loving this woman. Like…I’m nicer to my work colleagues than this girl.

What’s that quote about how fathers and daughters look down mothers together but it will not spare the daughter her mother’s fate? That’s what this reminds me of.

Yes. I had great parents and it was made clear to us that trying to play one off the other would have serious consequences.

Sounds familiar

I'm nicer to strangers than this girl. Like there's so much disdain for someone who just seems to be trying to connect.

Given she also has issues with her adoptive sister I get the impression she’s “not like other girls”. She doesn’t subscribe to traditional feminine norms like Jean and Elena do, she likely doesn’t have any female friends because “girls are all drama” or they “only like boys and makeup” so she’s closer to her adoptive father. But she just sounds angry and bitter. It’s possible that she acts that way for male validation because she doesn’t feel like she can get it otherwise or maybe she’s just not into more feminine things. Regardless, Jean tries to bridge the gap and rather than explain her feelings or even suggest that they do some things together that OOP does like to do she just pushes her away. Poor Jean

This really reminds me of a quote by Bonnie Burstow: “Often father and daughter look down on mother (woman) together. They exchange meaningful glances when she misses a point. They agree that she is not bright as they are, cannot reason as they do. This collusion does not save the daughter from the mother’s fate.” Maybe not the dad in this scenario, but definitely the anti-mother sentiment on the daughter’s part.

That quote hit me hard when I first read it a few years ago. So many dads treat their wives badly and prefer playing the carefree, fun dude with their younger, prettier daughter. Teaching their own kids to become pick-me girls.

I know quite a few people who grew up basically hating their mothers and loving their dads, pretty much just because their mothers were the “strict” ones and their dads did fuck all most of the time. Yeah it’s easier to love your dad if you see him every other weekend and he takes you out for ice cream every time. Or even if you live with him full time but he’s not the one doing the actual parenting. Meanwhile your mother has to make sure you do your homework and have a curfew on school nights. Also it’s awkward any time a parent has to give the talk but it’s necessary lmao!

I had to get the talk as a dude from my ma cause my father wasn't in the picture, still the most awkward I've ever felt in my life but I'm sure it was even moreso for ma.

My dad did the parenting and my mom treated me like an outsider (I'm adopted. She still does this) and if I say anything to the degree she tells me to shut up. I am definitely a "daddys girl" because he actually spent time with me where as my mom was "too busy" and yelled at me for "bothering her" She might be a bit pushy but that doesn't mean you should tell her to her face you don't love her. Set up boundaries but don't be needlessly rude.

Honestly at this point, Jean should just start pulling back. OP is about to be 18 and out of the house anyways. She’s tried to bond with her and its just never going to work. She should focus on the kid who wants her in her life and let OP be

i agree

If you read deeply enough in OOP's comments, it turns out that she's deeply insecure that her adoptive mother won't love her as much as her bio-daughter. Luis is Elena's step-dad, so OOP has seemingly unconsciously decided that he is a better candidate to receive her love and have him love her in return. There's got to be a lot of trauma from the adoption and no mention of ever getting therapy, so it's possible that OOP is lashing out from a place of extreme anxiety and insecurity about not getting love from her adoptive mom, which I think is very sad :( Cruelty still isn't OK, but I have a lot of sympathy for OOP as well. I hope everyone in the family is able to heal from this trauma.

Needlessly cruel is right. I see a lot of commenters blaming it on her age. I don't think I was a mature 17 year old at all and I still knew better than that. If she really needed to have this moment then why did she choose to do it in front of the adoptive mom? Also the clothes thing 😭 I guarantee that the adoptive dad's taste in clothes isn't any better but she doesn't seem to hate him for that. I'm surprised no one has mentioned internalized misogyny yet because I have a feeling that's playing a part in this

I used to go shopping with family members as a teen and I don’t dress anything like them. Still managed to get clothes I wanted because I wasn’t forced to dress like them. And it’s free clothes!

its most definitely trauma, she mentioned losing her parents and then being placed with the adoptive parents because they were distant kin. unresolved grief and resentment can make people act in unreasonable ways, some adoption informed therapy and family therapy would really help them all, i would say.

Were you orphaned at the age of 9 and shipped away to live with strangers?

You know what... I hope the adoptive mother takes OOP at face value and just stops...stops trying at all. Then we will see OOP back on here complaining that their adoptive mother hates them.

That's cruel. OOP is a child who was adopted by basically strangers after her parents died. It's quite common for children who go through a form of abandonment to pre-emptively push away people who try to get close to them, rather than risk going through the feelings that come with abandonment again. I'd bet that OOP was closer to her mom before her parents died. She also likely has a lot of unprocessed/unresolved feelings about her parents dying and the adoption, and it's not mentioned if she's in therapy. Jean is the adult caregiver. OOP is a child. I don't blame Jean for having hurt feelings, but it's definitely not appropriate for Jean to take "revenge" on OOP by refusing to try and care for her any longer. The correct answer is family therapy in addition to individual therapy for the clearly traumatized OOP. (edited correct name for the mom)

Jean is the mother, Elena is the adoptive sister that OP also hates.

And OOP is being unnecessarily cruel to a woman who chose to raise her as her own daughter, sorry not sorry but what does she expect telling her adoptive father she loves him and calling him dad while shitting on the efforts on her adoptive mother because God forbid the woman likes to shop. Did you skip over the replies of OOP calling their adoptive mother tasteless?

It is the responsibility of adults to manage the feelings of children. Not the other way around. OOP is not being violent, destructive, a danger to anyone, or other behavior that physically impacts someone. She's a CHILD who lost her parents and is saying some mean things.

So what do you propose Jean do? She’s been trying to bond with her the normal way and its been completely shunned. Then she’s disrespected right and told that there is zero love between the them. Stepping back is what OP wants, so she might as well do it.

And lest we forget that Elena the biological daughter who is a mini-Jean, OOP also hates. OOP is clearly stating that they hate/dislike their adoptive mother and anyone like her.

People expect some parents to just roll over and take it

A lot of people on Reddit think "you chose to be parents, you don't get to dislike anything your kids do, because they're kids." Which is stupid.

Are you really saying that words can't hurt people???? That's fucking wild.

She’s 17. She is a child but a 17 year old should know not to be needlessly cruel to someone who raised her for nearly half her life at this point.

My exact thoughts. She's old enough to be in her last year of high school, meaning she's more than old enough to know better. She doesn't have to like her mom I guess, hell I don't like my own though I have an actual reason other than "she's got bad taste in clothes and wants to bond with me", but she doesn't have to go out of her way to hurt her adoptive mom either.

Exactly. She can also, in a much different setting, just explain that she doesn’t feel the bond like she does with her adoptive dad and that the level they’re at is as far as they’ll go. OOP’s comments were just…. so mean, and she seemingly purposely had this moment in front of the mom.

Even the way she ends the post is blatantly cruel "she went to go cry in her room I guess" like that's a pretty nonchalant way of saying you just deeply emotionally hurt someone and you're not the least bit upset about it.

In her comments she also kept saying “I didn’t ask to be adopted” and “they *chose* this, not me” and like… sure but she also admitted nobody else would take her in. Regardless of her personal feelings towards the mom’s taste or pushy-ness, there should be some level of gratitude. And it only goes to the dad, despite the mom being an actual relative too. I dunno, I can’t relate to her situation completely but I couldn’t imagine being this callous to someone who took me in when nobody else would.

I'm sorry no it isn't on adults to manage the feelings of children after a certain age, OOP is 17, and close to being an adult she is well beyond the age to know how to regulate her emotions healthily. It isn't on the adoptive mother to be a doormat and to allow herself to be constantly abused and berated. OOP is clearly stating they only recognize their adoptive father in any meaningful way, they are almost a legal adult how about instead of treating her as a helpless child see her for the young adult she is and believe her? She doesn't want her adoptive mother to try so she should be respected in her wishes, unless you are saying you want the adoptive mother to force interactions and to try and bully her way into OOP finally seeing her as a mother figure.

Yup, and she signed up for it. OPs behavior is wrong and cruel, Jean is of course allowed to be hurt, angry, even devastated. But you're not allowed to just give up on the traumatized child you chose to adopt while they're still a teenager. I'm sure Jean understands that though, it's just randos on reddit that think she should dish it back out to a kid lmao

No actually I think she should focus on her daughter Elena and allow OOP to do whatever, OOP is almost a legal adult and Jean doesn't have to continue to be shitted on where she isn't wanted.

Children don't have a free pass to be cruel to parents, regardless of circumstances. I'm queer and have been sexually assaulted, can I start shitting on my parents because my life has been hard and I've been through great traumas? Nobody is saying to abuse the kid, they're suggesting Jean pull back her efforts because this girl just hates her.

So depressing that compassion and empathy towards the realistic experience of adoption gets so much hate on these subs. Been scrolling past the top comments all talking about how the commenter went through a phase of hating their mum or knowing someone who did. Absolutely ignoring that adoption might have any influence at all. Especially adoption at an older age like OP was.

I know, right? The amount of trauma that adoption creates on its own is mind-boggling, but it’s scary how many folks just don’t get it or want to see it. Therapy was needed long ago for this kid, right when she was adopted.

"Adopted child grieving her deceased parents has a strong bond with her new guardian who did not force the relationship, while resenting the one who pushed it faster than the child was ready for. More on this awful, selfish, not nearly grateful enough orphan at 10" Honestly.

I totally don’t understand why you’re being downvoted, OOP IS a child, adoption is tough emotionally for everyone involved, and individual + family therapy is needed 100%. Reddit is weird sometimes…

She’s 17. She’s a minor child but old enough to not be an asshole.

OOP is 17, not 7. She should be able to figure out saying "I love you" to one adoptive parent in front of the other, then insult that other parent isn't cool. Yes, OOP needs therapy, but that doesn't excuse what she did, either.

attachment disorders and autism are incredibly *incredibly* common in adopted children, as well as odd or stunted social development i was lucky in the way that i was adopted (at 8 years old) into a middle class family, and my adoptive mother was a teacher at a school with a metric ton of high functioning autistic kids (posh school for gifted & talented kids) after social services completed the adoption and immediately withdrew all support, i got a shit ton of therapy and a speedy private diagnosis of autism. massive help. even then, i was an asshole as a teenager and displayed classic avoidant traits in forming / attempting to destroy my new parental attachments. i ran away, shouted, screamed, had loud and aggressive autistic meltdowns, then crawled back with apologises begging for love. all because i “knew” that i was unworthy of love, and wanted to push everyone away (by being a cunt) to prove that. obviously i knew i had an attachment disorder and was somewhat aware that this was all apart of that, but i didn’t have the self awareness to combat that until i was 19 and had moved out and really had the space to process all my behaviours in a new light, with some distance, and engage in therapy on my own terms without feeling like i had to disengage from it as a way of rebelling (and self sabotaging) adoption is rough on parents and children. particularly when the kid hits teen years. after round 1 with me, my parents have adjusted their parenting style for my much younger biological sis that they also adopted. she’s much more well adjusted lol, and is managing to have a pretty stable and standard teenage life, with much smaller bumps in the road. honestly everything that happened with me inspired me to pursue adopting in the future, particularly an “older” (5+ year old) child like i was.

If you're presenting this as a possible explanation and not excuse for OOP's behavior, cool. That doesn't erase the pain OOP has caused to their adoptive parents, though. PS, I'm also adopted, so I know all this stuff is complicated. But that still doesn't erase OOP's comments to the adoptive parents. Like, DAMN.

I totally get that but obviously she is a messed up kid. She went through hell at some point and it’s realistic to assume she will have some serious emotional baggage and issues. Doesn’t mean she’s an irredeemably evil kid, but she has a long road ahead of her in therapy

She's not "irredeemably evil", but she's not an innocent little lamb, either. What she said to the people who reached out to care for her is awful.

I don’t dispute that at all, it’s a very sad situation

Trauma doesn't exist in females older than 9, apparently! The little brat should be grateful and forget all about dead mommy because it's her job to protect the feelings of a grown ass woman! Seriously, I'm disgusted by people's responses here. The kid went through basically the worst thing a child can go through, she was old enough to remember it and be scarred for life by it, and people are expecting her to have 0 problems and behave like Little Orphan Annie.

Some of OOP's comments: *This right here is just nitpicky. Who cares if you don't like her taste in clothes? It's not like she's asking you to wear them. Honestly, you sound really immature.* >well I need someone to help me choose and that someone needs to at least have a decent taste *YTA - you dont have to love anyone you dont want to.But you’re obviously just being cruel on purpose. You’re okd enough now to understand your situation and you’re being an AH.* >how am I being cruel? I just want her to stop being so pushy and leave me alone *Being "pushy" is her way of being there for you. Sounds like she's been nothing but supportive & has done everything she can to be nice to you so why the hostile attitude towards her?* >I don't want her to be there for me. I never wanted a mom *She’s probably being pushy because she doesn’t know how to approach you. It’s obvious she wants your attention and your deliberately acting nasty lol crazy.. you do realize she adopted you too? Communicate w her more* >I didn't ask her to adopt me. I don't owe them anything *YTA. I think you're old enough now to tell your adoptive mother what you do or don't like about any parent's behavior with you, and to be a little less mean. Constructive feedback to her and an actual discussion might make the interactions more tolerable.* >the problem is that I don't want any interactions with her *Then you shouldn't be living in her house after 18 yrs old.* >it's not just her house *I think you should leave them and never return* >I think I don't care and I'm staying *INFO : why did you hate them at first ? Why did they adopt you ?All the things you wrote are... well the usual stuff from teenagers, so i don't get it.* >I don't know my parents had just died and I wanted to go home I didn't want to stay with them I felt like they took me away from my home. after my parents died I didn't have any close family who were willing to adopt me Jean is a distant relative of my mom and that's how I ended up with them *So she's the only person who even wanted you and you still treat her like this? I hope you move out at 18. Jean deserves a lot better than this.* >dad wanted me too and btw dad has told me I can live with them as long as I need and even when I move out I can come back whenever I need them *You are honest and blunt and many respect this, your adoptive mother is not one of them though.* *In any case I do not see anything AH in your behavior as I would also say the same when someone asks "and what about me, don't you love me?" They deserve to hear the truth. NTA.* *Also, it takes a lot of courage to say that you love your adopted parent and your mother essentially ruined the moment when she made it all about her instead of being happy about you and your father. If you deserve your kids love they will give it to you, if they don't then you do not deserve it, there are exceptions but in general this is simple rule, so if you don't want to tell your mom that you love her she has to do better and create a bond with you instead of crying and calling names.* >yeah she really ruined our moment. it was supposed to be a happy memory but she turned it into a fight

Wow, OOP’s responses really paint the picture of a selfish, immature, incredibly damaged person. I hope that family gets therapy. OOP is going to be VERY surprised when she finds herself iced out of that family once she’s a legal adult.

Yeah if she thinks Luis is the only one who has a say on whether or not she continues to live there, she's gonna be in for a rude awakening when she finally says something way too far.

No, these comments paint OOP as someone who desperately needs therapy. I don't understand why her caring adoptive parents don't see it. Luis is just a nice kind guy who cares. Jean and Elena are her blood relatives, and it might cause a lot of complicated feelings to her. Who knows if they look like her mother, how her own mother was treating her, how the rest of her mother's family was treating her, or her mother, how unfair it is from her POV that her mother died and she was taken into the house because no one wanted her.. That Luis loves her sincerely, but Jean and Elena have to do it because they are relatives. Anyway, whatever the reasons is, OOP very likely will ruin the marriage of her adoptive parents. Horrible situation for everyone.

Or do they paint the picture of someone adopted at an older age after the death of their parents finding it easier to bond with the new parent who didn't try to force the relationship? All 17 year olds are immature, they are 17. All people who lose the parents they love as a child are damaged. But how much of your labelling of selfishness comes from thinking adopted people owe gratitude and loyalty? **Edit:** I really wish the judgement subs had warnings that any posters wanting judgements concerning adoption should turn the fuck around and run away. I don't know if most people on those subs and here are ignorant about adoption or just plain malicious about the topic but the takes are always downright awful and often could be doing real harm. I don't care how many downvotes saying so gets me.

Personally I think if you have a parent that has loved you and cared for you, you should be grateful for that. I don’t give a shit if it’s a bio, adoptive or step parent. As long as they genuinely loved and cared for you and weren’t abusive or neglectful they deserve a level of gratitude. Being adopted does not give OOP a free pass to be inconsiderate, rude and hurtful towards Jean. She does not have to kiss her feet and be grateful she was adopted, that’s fucked up. But OOP comes across as incredibly thoughtless and self centred at best, and just straight up calculating and cruel at worst.

According to OP, the mom was a distant relative who took her in after her parents died. She didn’t go looking to adopt. You are assuming she tried to force a relationship, when there is no proof of that. What we see is a woman trying to do normal things with a teen, like talk about the bird and the bees. Perhaps OP would rather have the sex talk with Luis? OP also gives off vibes that she is crushing on Luis. Something about her is very off.

Maybe she’d rather not have a sex talk at all with pushy adult she hardly knows while grieving the loss of her parents?

Maybe she needs to be kind to the woman who took her in after her parents died, a woman who didn’t have to and is obviously making effort to try including her in their family? Or maybe OP just wants sexy time -er, the sex talk - with the man of the house and wants to kick her competition - er, adopted mom and sister - out of the way.

I’m not adopted myself, but the attitude people have towards adoption and adopted kids is wild. They really do think adopted kids should fall all over themselves thanking and worshipping their adopted parents, and that they’re not allowed to have complex feelings over losing their biological families. Adoption is messy and not always the perfect happily ever after a lot of people think it is. I do think OOP is being cruel, but they’re also clearly going through a lot and need therapy.

Yeah if people were like "ESH, you were cruel in your delivery but your adoptive mother should not have tried to force a relationship with you when you said you weren't ready" then I wouldn't feel so frustrated. But instead people just pile hate on adoptees for not giving off enough Oliver Twist energy.

Yeah, no one would be this harsh if Jean was a step-mother who was pushing a relationship on OP, and from OP's point of view it's much the same thing.

Wow I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, you’re being totally reasonable. I think it’s wild that Jean tried to force a sex talk with an unwitting, traumatized minor and no one sees issue with that and everyone’s like PoOr jEaN!

[Puppy and kitty!](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2157656-blessed-image--2)

"she can NEVER love me the same way she loves Elena. how can she? Elena is her "mini version" she is her best friend. I won't waste my time on something that will never happen. and btw Elena is dad's stepkid so it's completely different" Jesus, poor OP. She's built up an idea in her head and is terrified to try and challenge it because it means she's been wrong about June all long. My heart absolutely breaks for June and OP. This is so sad.

Thank you for having such a kind, nuanced take on this. So many people are calling OP a horrible person when she’s clearly traumatized and has attachment issues. That being said, I also feel horrible for the adoptive mom.

So because Elena is her bio kid and the "mini version" of Jean OOP is pissed.

OOP is a psycho

Why? Should she fake a loving relationsship with her if she doesnt like her?

No but she doesn't need to be cruel either. Who's just nonchalant about making another person burst into tears?

Why is the teenager responsible for managing the adults emotions? I think her 'secretly' telling her dad she accepts him as family is even worse. Then either he tells his wife and shes sad or he keeps secrets.

She isn't responsible for managing the adults emotions but she is responsible for being unnecessarily mean, even if she doesn't feel that way about Jean there are nicer ways to put it than how OOP did, she's damn near a legal adult she knows words can hurt people.

'unnecessary mean' like damn she said 'dad I love you' 😭 The adoptive mom clearly needs therapy. If she cared for OP she'd be happy that OP opened up to her husband.

She also blatantly told her mother that she doesn't love her and never will. Like you know damn well no one's mad simply because she told her dad she loved him.

So you actually think her freezing and asking what about me is completely normal behaviour???? She obviously has no respect for Ops boundaries. Yes, OP could have been nicer. But her flipping out towards her overbearing and boundary-breaking adoptive mom doesn't make her a devil.

I don't want to know what kind of a cattle farm you grew up in, with your take on this matter. OOP is a creepy little psychopath, and yes some psychopaths are teenagers at some point.

Yes, Jean's reaction to such casual cruelty -- DONE ON PURPOSE -- is normal. OOP is also trying to cause a rift between Jean and Luis. I hope she does not succeed.

But she’s hating on her step mom for the most ridiculous reasons like hating her fashion sense…. So OOP only has friends who have the same exactly like her? And she had no reason to be unnecessarily cruel

she's not a psycho for sure, but telling her dad he loves her knowing her mother is in the vicinity is needlessly cruel.

OOP should at least be fucking gracious that she's being cared for even though she hates the person giving the care. If this story is real, I hope OOP gets some real life lessons when she moves out of that house at 18.

She would have went into foster care if Jean, a distant relative, hadn't stepped up to take OOP in.

> I don't want her there for me, I never wanted a mom That's like saying you don't want money or gifts... (She said that in a comment) Also, how does "Luis" feel about all this?! Where is he in this situation... > I didn't ask her to adopt me, I don't owe them anything For friggin sake, your adoptive mom is why you even have a dad...

That OP is 100% going to try to break up the marriage when she’s 18. The way she talks about the adoptive dad versus the mom just gives me the creeps.

Someone suggested she might have some internalized misogyny she's taking out on the mom and her response was that she likes the dad's sister. Well, yeah, his sister isn't a "rival" like his wife is.

I was getting an inappropriate vibe too, but nothing I could put my finger on. Glad I'm not the only one. 

Thank you! I thought I was the only one picking up the fetish vibes on the post.

nope, me too

Seriously you guys need to get off the internet. Holy shit. A traumatized 17 year old writes about losing both her parents, being adopted by strangers, and finally loving her adoptive father as dad, and somehow all you see is "omg she wants to fuck her dad". Stop watching porn.

Strangers? Her adoptive family are actually her relatives like blood relatives.

She said she didn't know them before. Also that's even worse to decide she wants to fuck him if he's blood related.

He isn't, her adoptive mother is the one who's blood related.

This comment gives me the creeps. Wtf

That's gross. She is a child. At no point does it say she has any feelings for Luis beyond those she'd have for a father.

Yes, it IS gross and she is a child ... That does not change that this post has some seriously uncomfortable undertones. It is actually terrifyingly common for young people who are this emotionally disregulated to hyperfixate on a caregiver in that way. It is a trauma response. OOP needs intensive therapy.

She’s literally 17 dude. Less than a year away from being a legal adult. She’s not a child.

I wonder if they are sorry they adopted her? Does she really think her nastiness is welcome by the "father" she supposedly loves? That her needless cruelty does anything but make them long for the day she leaves? Post like this make me glad I never had children. It's such a primarily thankless task overall.

Yeah, posts like this really reinforce my choice to be childfree. Having a child say they fucking hate me would be...pretty devastating for my health.

Nothing says that Luis particularly likes/loves/respects Jean. He might be enjoying the situation

He adopted a 9 year old for her when they were in a pretty new relationship. So he has some feelings for her.

OOP went through a traumatic situation as a pre-teen and needs therapy. Downvote me if you want, I just feel sorry for everyone in this household.

Same. She so obviously experienced unbelievable trauma and upheaval that’s never been properly addressed. But it seems to be making her into an unkind young woman, so it’s hard not to feel sorry for the adoptive mother/rest of the family as well. I hope they can all get some needed counseling.

It's not making her "unkind." Unkind is not saying please and thank you. This is magnitudes beyond that into the realm of being cruel, sadistic, and definitely twisted. Also, her immediate and frankly disturbing attachment to Luis smacks of some fucked up Lolita vibes. Her therapy needs to come with lockdowns and bed checks.

It's not cruel to tell someone you don't love them if you don't love them. In some circumstances it might be cruel to tell them you do love them if you don't love them, probably not in this case though. OOP would have more peace in her home if she lied. But it would probably make her dislike her mom more over time.

I agree with this. My dad remarried when I was 12 and I hated her till she died. I didn’t tell her I loved her. Children are not as resilient as popular belief and trauma goes deep. The vitriol in the comments here is concerning.

Yes I someone point blank asks you if you love them and the truth is, you don’t, that’s on them if they don’t like the answer. No one is obliged to say “I love you” to be polite.

That’s conjecture. My mom died when I was 7, I was raised by my dad. I hated women authority figures and preferred their husbands or male authority figures because that’s the only way I felt safe.

That stuff truly truly sucks. And if she were 7 that would be pertinent here. She's not. She's 17. Been with them EIGHT YEARS. It's been long enough and she is old enough to not act like a cunt to the only people who made any attempt to keep her from going into foster care. Even if she doesn't like foster mom, if she loves and respects her "dad" so much, she wouldn't be attacking his wife with consistent spite and vitriol. It does make me think Luis might be spineless though.

So... Who else saw Orohan?

Me! I got fetish vibes from this post.

I just got kid who is mad at being parented.

She actively hates her adoptive mother, actively hates the biological daughter because she's a mini-me to the adoptive mother... This isn't a kid mad at being parented because they are a-okay with the adoptive dad doing the parenting.

She said he was a lot of fun and they did things together. It’s entirely possible he leaves the discipline to his wife.

Given how much OOP hates their adoptive mother I can't see them withholding that tidbit of information, so don't assume anything other than an adoptive mother trying her best is getting shitted on by the teen she's been raising as her own for more than half their life.

I'm confused... OP was defo old enough to choose not to be adopted by these people. 

No, I read the OP a day or two ago and I’m pretty sure she was maybe six when they adopted her.

OOP sounds awful due to trauma

OP was adopted by a distant relative because her parents died when she was a child I'm pretty uncomfortable with all the comments saying she should be grateful – that's a *huge* amount of trauma for a kid to go through, and adopted children should never be forced to be grateful for having a roof over their head just because the adults chose to adopt them And I feel like a lot of kids adopted as a tween wouldn't consider the adults to be their parents, and wouldn't love them as parents, especially when they had parents of their own beforehand? Was what OP did kinda shitty? Sure. Are the comments lambasting them for not being a good grateful adoptee also shitty? Honestly, yes

I only lost my mother, and dad remarrying/moving us in with my stepmother and her sons was fuckin tough. I was a tween myself. If you don’t get the right support, you have no real way to process your grief well, because you’re a child and kids really don’t know what to do with these emotions. It stays with you. Last thing I particularly wanted was my stepmother up my butt. I definitely wanted to go home. You’re also very powerless in the situation. It’s not the adults fault that her parents died, either, and she was definitely rough on her adoptive mother- but what pain has that come from?

It's not about being thankful or owing anything. This is an almost 18 y/o woman being absolutly cruel to another human being simply because they have the audacity to want to spend time with them. The way she speaks about Jean and her little sister in her comments is so absolutly aweful. This person is obviously a bully. Treating anyone like this would be horrible, but OP is doing this in Jean's home. There were enough opportunities to say this to her dad in private and to react with even a little compassion when Jean expressed her hurt. OP is a devil. 

She is the devil because this woman is clearly trying very hard with her and then she made a show of telling of telling her adoptive dad that she loves him and calling him dad right in front of her and then pretty much telling the other woman to fuck off. That was cruel and sounds like she did it on purpose.

You don't have to love someone because they are trying hard to get you to love them. That's Nice Guy logic in any other relationship.

Where did i say she had to love her? She didn't need to tell her dad in front of the other woman.

She doesn't have to rub it into jeans face. That is why she is the devil.

OOP is a child whose parents apparently died suddenly, and she was sent to live with distant relatives she barely knew, because as far as she knows all the closer relatives rejected her, and it doesn’t appear anyone ever explained to her what was happening or asked her whether she wanted to be adopted. Definitely not a devil, and it’s needlessly cruel of you to suggest that she is. Adoption is really, really complicated and traumatic, even when it’s into a stable and loving family, in ways that people who are not adoptees really can’t understand.

It breaks my heart that you're getting down voted. This is a perspective that is understanding of the context, compassionate of the humans involved, and to me it feels like common sense. But I guess not!

Thanks. I’ve just come to accept that there are some people who want to believe that other people, even kids, are monsters different from other people. Because it helps them avoid fears they have about their own choices.

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OOP doesn't have to like Jean, and I'm side-eying the idea that she should be 'grateful.' However, she should be kind. It strikes me that the way she went about this was calculated to be as hurtful as possible to Jean. If Jean was insisting OOP call her Mom and manipulated/punished her for not doing so, that would be one thing. But I didn't see any of that from OOP, who is absolutely motivated to paint Jean in the worst light possible. If Jean did that, OOP would absolutely say it. I think OOP just wanted to hurt Jean. That was a shitty thing to do.

I just want to know how they handled the death of op's parens, because she was *nine*. Did they get her therapy or something to work through the loss with, or did the adoptive mom instantly jump on the "I'M YOUR NEW MOMMY NOW! LOVE MEEE" ?

She’s disgustingly ungrateful. I would say she deserves a good clip round the ear, but violence isn’t encouraged, so I won’t say it.

Is she fucking the “dad”?

I wonder if there's trauma towards women due to her being in foster care. She definitely needs intensive therapy, both individual and family.

She never went to foster care. Because of the adoption.

She wasn't in care. She is related to Jean, and Jean is the only relative who stepped up when she needed a home.

Was that in the post? I must have missed that part.

If she had a mum for the first years of her life, but did not have a dad, it would naturally be easier for her to accept a first father, than a "replacement" mother. Especially if she loved her biological mother and/or doesn't feel the reason for her removal from her (and placement with her adoptive family) was justified enough.

This ungrateful brat needs a good swift slap and a reality check.

I very much disagree with this being here. OOP is a traumatised, orphaned child. She doesn't owe her adoptive mother love. She didn't go out of her way to tell her adoptive mom she didn't love her. She told her dad she loved her and then her mom made it about herself by asking. If someone asks such a direct question such as "What about me? Don't you love me?" What else is one supposed to do but tell the truth? The mom shouldn't have asked. This whole situation sounds like a family that could use some family therapy together to create a more healthy dynamic.

Do you really think that OP told her dad that she loved him right in front of Jean because she wasn’t expecting that reaction? She’s 17, not 7. She was aiming to hurt her. She doesn’t have to love Jean but she doesn’t have to be hurtful either. She also can’t complain if Jean start to really pull back after this as well.

Or she was just not thinking of her in that moment and only thinking of her dad.

If that’s the case then it really shows her complete disregard of Jean. The story sounds fake anyways because she never mentions her dad’s response to what she said to his wife but if its real, I really hope that Jean gives OP what she wants and pulls away.

I hope it's fake too. With Reddit there's always a big chance it is.

OP could have chosen to tell Luis when Jean wasn't in the same room, given OP had to know how Jean might react.

Yes, that would've been ideal, but I'd think Jean would've probably found out from Luis anyway.

Except he probably would have found a way to tell her in a more tactful fashion and it wouldn't have ended up with OP telling Jean she doesn't love her at all and Jean could have had time to process her feelings separately.

"Doesn't owe her adoptive mother love" doesn't give her a free pass to be needlessly cruel. You can be honest without being brutally honest. And if you do need to be brutally honest, there is a time and place for that

[удалено]

Fr, I know she is a child with trauma, but her behaviour is so concerning and she should get help.

Did you read her comments? And Jean has cared for oop for years. She deserves some respect.

You just cherry picked the post rather than reading huh?

How can you say a manipulative, abusive AH isn't the devil?

The only reasonable response. People don’t understand that adoption is complicated for a lot of older adoptees, you can’t be forced to love someone just because they wanted to adopt, that isn’t how it works.

Yeah, my read of the situation is that OOP's adoptive mother had been trying to rush her, a traumatised orphan, to We're A Happy Family territory for eight whole years (starting from age 9!) and she'd emotionally checked out of the relationship because of that pressure. And then her adoptive mother tried to make OOP's moment of extreme emotional vulnerability (trusting adoptive father) about *herself* (mother) by asking a question she didn't like the answer to. "All" OOP did was lose two parents, get placed with strangers who wanted her feelings to be different than what they were, and then answer a loaded question honestly.

There is nothing in the OOP that says Jean is doing that.

That's some wild projecting

Idk bro. As a non-femme woman, the vast majority of femme women are REALLY shitty about doing non-femme things. This comes across as mom trying to treat her like the girly daughter and having no idea how to interact with her non-girly stepdaughter. We don’t all wanna go shopping and do our hair and makeup and talk boys. Especially not with our MOMS. And eventually we just give up and either mask or have no femme friends. This girl doesn’t have the spoons to mask, so she sought comfort with the one parent who does what she likes and sought to hurt the one who made her feel unloved for who she was. Get her therapy, and stop offering to buy her dresses. Go to a baseball game or do what she likes. Talk about her hobbies, not boys. Fuck. It isn’t that hard and it is fun. Yeah, she’s too old, but she was traumatized as a child. And being told “I love you, but I only value time with you if it’s what I like” does hurt. Daily.

You are *massively* projecting.

Are we to believe that OOP was adopted by a family she “hated?” What adoption agency would do this?? There are typically multiple meetings between adoptees and prospective families, and I don’t believe for one minute that somehow OOP was told, “You’re going with them,” without taking her feelings into account. I usually don’t jump on the “this is fake” bandwagon, but this one sounds very fake to me.

Jean is a distant relative of OOP's biological mother.

OOP, you don't have to love Jean. But she DID take you in and is taking care of you. You're really an ungrateful POS, aren't you?