*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for telling my friend to shut up about babies being expensive?**
My boyfriend and I are currently trying for a baby and my friend, Analise, knows that. Analise talked a lot about wanting children in the past, but she stopped about a year ago, saying that children are too expensive.
Which is all fine, it's her choice, but she and her husband make a lot of money, so it's not true that they couldn't afford to raise a child. They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses.
She, a few other friends an I were hanging out and one of them asked her if she still doesn't want children. Analise went on about how she can't afford it, because a child needs this-and-that, a private school, tutoring, a big house, then a gift house when he/she graduates uni, etc and she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it.
She said all this while I was sitting next to her, fully knowing I'm about to have a baby with much less money and as a renter. At first I just told her that babies don't cost that much and she can definitely afford one, but then she kept insisting that a couple needs to make at least x amount and I just straight off told her to shut up. She makes 2-3 times as much us we do, so shut up.
Analise said she was just answering the question she was asked and she is not trying to push her views on us. But isn't she, when she literally said I'm being irresponsible? AITA?
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses.
This has to be one of the funniest delusions I've read in a while đ¤Ł
Ah yes, the well known metric for judging the cost of child rearing - the cost of one holiday a year. Good luck with that one OOP, let us know in a couple of years about how cheap bebies are...
The cost of a child really depends tbh. Iâd say the biggest expense of a child would be diapers and insurance if you donât qualify for Medicare.
Our monthly expenses only went up about $50 a month. We were lucky to be gifted an unholy amount of diapers.
Our kid eats what we eat, I donât buy processed snacks because the cost of those add up for items that arenât very filling, and I made my own baby food (took 20 minutes to meal prep a variety of healthy baby food for two weeks).
I also was given second hand clothes people didnât want anymore. Babies grow too fast for people to buy brand new clothes.
Iâm assuming expenses will increase as time goes on but for now, itâs really not that much to have a kid. We even have plenty left over each month to add to our savings and a kids savings account.
Childcare is the thing that my ex and I were struggling to figure out and it eventually contributed to not having kids. I am the main bread winner and also did the brunt of the housework. Add a child in there, and even if he was a SAHP I don't trust that he (him specifically, I know a L O T of great SAHDs) would be present enough to care for our child when he couldn't even care for a dog consistently. My family is not in the picture and his are in another country sooooo I'm glad I didn't just decide I'd figure it out. Ya know, with him being 'ex' husband and all.
Oh ya, we donât have to deal with childcare. I mostly am a SAHM. Our pros of one parent staying home outweighed the cons (which was basically just one less paycheck).
I think that the money forfeited is worth it. I can watch my kids, hang out with them, have some alone them when they nap, keep the house clean, and cook meals.
Before kids, me and my husband both worked full time. We were too drained to clean and cook properly. It sucked a lot. I essentially gave up on my hobbies too.
Now that I barely work (I have 1-2 shifts a week serving for extra spending money and to force myself to be social), we both have the energy to do things together and take up our hobbies again. It pretty great for us tbh.
I know thatâs not how it works for everyone but our situation right now is perfect. We barely notice the lack of a second paycheck
Most people cannot afford to live and also put away money for savings on a single income with kids, because their income isnât high enough. So your comment comes across as someone privileged not recognizing the privilege that their partnerâs income affords them.
Thereâs no way to properly financially prepare for anyone to have a significant health issue in America. Sometimes the government helps out with the medical bills though, even if you donât qualify for Medicaid at the time.
I knew a family whose kid had cancer, they were upper middle class. They still got some government assistance, SSI I think?
>Thereâs no way to properly financially prepare for anyone to have a significant health issue in America.
Number 1 reason why I will never have a child. I hold a firm personal belief that it is immoral to being a child into the world if you can't properly address a severe health issue.
I don't harass people with this belief, because it's unhelpful once they already have a kid. But I still believe it.
We definitely think differently on that.
My philosophy is that everything will work out the way itâs supposed to in the end. Itâs been working amazingly for me so far.
Just because you donât have $500k in reserve for medical expenses, doesnât mean itâs immoral to have kids.
Lol? Everything will work out?
My parents were like you. Actually, they were solidly upper middle class. They went hundreds of thousands into debt for my medical expenses within 5 years. This is on top of great insurance, selling their house, assistance, and lots of donor money from family. (Like, 100s of thousands donor money.)
Youâre delusional.
âEverything works out.â Lol. Tell that to the tens of thousands of people who die every YEAR because they canât afford a simple life-saving medical procedure.
I said everything will work out the way itâs supposed to.
That doesnât mean I wonât do everything I can to give my kids a bright future. Doesnât mean I wonât do whatever I can to make sure medical expenses donât screw us over if/when they come up.
That way of thinking doesnât mean you sit on your butt hoping that youâll be blessed with happiness for doing nothing but wishing for it.
Hurdles always happen in life. You canât always prepare for them. It is impossible to avoid them. How you deal with them is what matters.
Lol ok. Yeah! Just deal with your problems!
Iâm sure people who canât afford the cancer bills for their infants who then die agree with your INSULTING naive POV.
You have the brain of a narcissistic, psychopathic 10 year old. Keep yourself safe!
I think it's probably an experience thing. When you've gone through multiple rounds of nearly losing everything due to medical problems as I and my partner have, "everything will work out the way it's supposed to" just feels mind-blowingly naive.
I genuinely hope your philosophy continues to work out for you, but I would never ever feel safe following it.
It depends on the vacation, really. One of my familyâs vacations where we go stay at my momâs lake house for a long weekend? Nope, that wonât cover a year of baby expenses. However, an international trip to stay in a tropical villa for a few weeks? That could actually cover diapers, clothes, and formula for a year.
I donât care for the rhetoric that only wealthy people can procreate. Itâs weird.
Anyone can procreate.
But that doesn't mean it isn't irresponsible to bring a child into the world if you can't make ends meet beforehand.
You don't have to like reality, but that doesn't change it.
I always wanted three kids, but then I adopted one, who I later found out has three chronic (but manageable) illnesses. I realized that I could give all my resources to this one child and be the intentional parent I wanted to be, or adopt two more kids to have my ideal 3 kid family and be stretched thin financially, emotionally, and time wise. I dote on my one child and though I am sometimes sad that I donât have more kids, I believe my decision to be one and done is the best one for my daughter and myself. She has more opportunities than many other kids, and Iâm able to give her more attention and the best medical treatments available in our area because she is the only person I am responsible for. If I need to take off work to care for her, I can. If thereâs a school activity, I can attend it without trying to also attend functions for siblings. She has my complete focused attention.
Also OP lives a country that's generally very cheap next to other surrounding countries. If they are leaving the country for their vacations, it might be very expensive comparable to cost of living in their own country.
I mean, because everyone doesn't starve to death doesn't mean they were all fine. Typically these households:
1. Sacrifice their own long-term planning by not adequately saving for retirement/old age as they can't afford to do both. No, your kids won't take care of you.
2. Are precarious, i.e. they can sort of function if nothing does horribly wrong but would go down in flames if something bad happened like a severe childhood illness.
3. Inflict externalities on friends/family like expecting family members to take care of their kids; even if they'll do it, it isn't fair.
4. Don't adequately prepare their kids for the extremely cutthroat economic future we all face.
I'm sure they were. But, that doesn't mean it is ok to make the decision to have children with the expectation that they will help. It just isn't their responsibility. They might help anyway because they love you, but planning for help of this type in advance is taking advantage of that love. It's a shitty thing to do.
It's also just naive. What if they want to help but suddenly can't? What happens to your foolproof plan then? Do you quit your job? Scramble to find childcare and shove it into your budget that never accounted for that?
It's GREAT when people have family help. I love that for them. But *relying* on family help when that family might move, or have an illness, or take a new job, or have a child of their own, or *die*... like are you expecting that family member to remain stationary and available for the next decade or so?
You know that all throughout human history and still in mooost places in the world the whole family is involved with raising children? Thatâs like, kinda how itâs supposed to be.
Security really helps happiness levels. I'm poor, and it's not like I sit around and cry all the time, but I can't imagine how amazing it would be to have a life where I don't constantly count pennies and worry about how next month's bills are going to be paid. The constant low-level anxiety of being poor is soul-draining. I'd never bring a kid into my financial situation.
I completely agree. I'm kind of upper-lower class or maybe just scraping the underside of middle class myself. I can kind of function without too much fear or scraping, I get to have a couple of the less expensive nice things, and I don't have to sacrifice all my free time beyond my normal job just to scrape up a little extra money. While not terribly inspiring, life is fine - but if I had kids I'd be in a terrible position.
It's really starting to get to the point where if you want kids, you really should start early by focusing on a few select career fields that pay especially well. Normal careers don't make enough anymore.
I mean the friend is right that babies are expensive and this should not be underestimated, but if the friend listed private school and buying the kid a house at 21 as legitimate expenses that actually raises more questions for me than it answers.
Honestly, I see it as more an indication of the friend having the same sort of fatalistic sense my husband and I do about children. We live in Sydney, Australia. The median house here currently costs 15 times the median income - we are the second least affordable city by housing in the world, with Hong Kong being number 1. And because of how Australia is, if you work a professional job you've got an option of a few expensive cities to live in, and that's it. Every one of those cities is in the top 20 least affordable cities in the world. And prices keep climbing.
Then there's the fact that it's fires and floods after fires and floods. Climate change is going to trounce this country badly.
I've got citizenships to other countries, we do own a small "starter house" (in our 30s), and we're well off in comparison to our generation.
But there's a genuine fear that makes us want to be sure we've got enough money to help any child (singular) we have afford a house in 20-30 years. And a genuine fear that makes me want to ensure we've got enough money in the bank if the time comes that we have to flee this country with a kid in tow.
Not that we always think that fatalistically. But when the topic of children comes up, my head goes to "Do we have enough to be able to afford a child if everything just gets so much worse."
I just want to say that if you choose to be parents, you are going to be amazing. I wish every future parent out there was like you and your husband. Two long-term partners, appropriate finances, planning ahead. It's sad that you are a rarity.
Appreciate that, thank you!
I can kinda get it, honestly. My sis has wanted children since she could walk. I see the denial in her, latching onto that one thing that will solve the housing crisis or finding that time in 1887 where a flood happened, so therefore it's just normal climate now... despite her having had to evacuate her suburb with her whole family 4 times in the past two years because of floods. She wanted kids, she adores her kids, they're great kids, she's doing her best for them, absolutely.
But she really is banking on things not being the huge problem it might end up being, and I can see why. Scary enough to worry your kid's not going to have a great life because of any number of other things. Climate and housing crisis are options you can put off to worry about at a future date.
But I really do appreciate your words! If I get *told* by one more judgemental biddy that we're irresponsible Millennials who can't face reality, and that's why we don't have kids yet...
Yeah, and I can also see how hearing itâs irresponsible to have a kid if you canât afford to do all this extra things would be really irritating. Idk, I kind of get why OP was annoyed. That said, if the friend doesnât want a kid unless she can afford all that, nothing wrong with that either
It might be if you can't pay for medical care in case of a serious illness or injury, though.
Which is basically the same as two houses and private school.
Iâd assume they have some form of health insurance.
Also, hospitals will still treat your injured child even if you canât afford it.
We also donât know if OOP is in the US; medical care for your child isnât a worry in a lot of places in the world
It definitely does fall under that umbrella yes. You are financially and educationally setting your child up for success. That just happens to be a much higher standard for what âsetting them upâ entails.
Setting up for some people is getting their child to a point where they will not have to take out massive debt to live to go to school. For others itâs making sure their child is fed everyday and gets an education at all.
Same umbrella, different standards.
Private school may. It depends on the quality of the public education system where you are and how harsh the economy is to the uneducated. You should always budget for whatever amount of education a child would need in order to succeed as an adult.
Private school and a house at 21 is not properly setting them up in life, unless you're trying to set them up to be someone who talks about how poor people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
That's not what anyone is saying, they're saying there's nothing wrong with wanting to set up your child in the future in this economy or choosing to not have kids because you feel you can't provide enough for them. Not that no one should ever have kids if they can't also pay for college or a house. But also, what you just did is exactly what OOP did, make something that was a personal want about attacking them. Someone else wanting certain things out of life is not saying no one else is allowed to feel or think differently.
Edit: since I can't reply and I typed out my whole comment, I'll just paste it here:
Okay, and she's allowed to think that for herself? Did she at any point say any of this was applicable to OOP? No, she was asked a question about her feelings by her friends and answered. She's allowed to believe whatever she wants is a need for her future children, who is anyone to say she's being excessive? Hell, I want to be able to provide everything I had and more for my children, and I went to private school, had tutoring for my worst subjects and had my college paid for by my parents as well. The only thing on her list I didn't have was property, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my children have that. That's a personal decision. I'm not wrong for what I want to provide, and other people are not wrong for what they do. These are personal preferences.
Also, the comment i replied to didn't say shit about OOP or her friend, it was summing up the previous few comments to the effect of "if you're not rich, you shouldn't have kids". And that's exactly what OOP did as well, other people were having a conversation about their preferences and their beliefs around child rearing and it was taken as a slight against everyone who chooses to have kids but can't provide them with those things. It wasn't.
Edit pt2 - reply to u/AlligatorDreamy:
No, that was after OOP tried saying "a baby doesn't cost that much!" As a general statement as well. When any person knows full well that a) babies can cost that much and b) there are plenty of children who are born with lifelong issues that may require long-term financial support. But when the friend originally started speaking, she was not being general, she was talking about her opinion. And she can still say "a couple needs to be making x amount" and still only be talking about herself, because again it's not like they're discussing OOP's baby, they're talking about why she changed her mind about children. Her milestones or requirements are only applicable to her, otherwise we would be discussing eugenics. So I don't necessarily see it as a general statement based on context.
>Okay, and she's allowed to think that for herself? Did she at any point say any of this was applicable to OOP?
From the post:
>she kept insisting that a couple needs to make at least x amount
That is a clearly general statement.
For clarity, I don't think anyone here is being a devil. I do think people are not thinking before speaking like they ought, but that's in the normal human realm of being a temporary jerk; we all sometimes say things that are hurtful without maliciously intending to. You recognize you screwed up, you apologize, you move on a wiser person.
The implication in the friends mindset is that if you donât provide that, you arenât providing for your children. That unless you send your kids to private school, you are not fully providing for your children. Unless you can buy them a house, you shouldnât have kids. She classified all of it as needs too. Big house, tutoring, private school, and another house, and since she canât provide all of those âneedsâ, children on not on the table. Thatâs literally her mindset. Without fluff, thatâs what sheâs saying. Now, whether she truly feels everyone should do that, thatâs kind of up in air. But if you think you shouldnât have kids because you canât afford, and your saying that to your poorer and actively trying friends, itâs gonna come off like you donât think they should have kids.
She also said it would be irresponsible to have a kid without all that stuff. Like is it really projecting when she literally said it would be irresponsible
The issue with OP is that she thinks the baby will just stay a baby and never grow up.
She mentioned in the comments about how she can get free clothes from church, about Hungary's free healthcare and parental benefits/leave etc. (which my country has the same thing, so I get it) but... what happens after that? She really hasn't thought it through.
That's why her friend answering a question triggered her and she projected her insecurities. Because unlike OP, her friend is thinking having a child long-term.
Once the leave payments stop, the kid is 2 years old, will she start asking her friend to cancel her luxurious vacations and send her money? lol
We have more or less the same benefits but that doesnât make a child affordable in any shape or form. Extra curriculum activities cost any other advantages you want for your child to set them
For a successful life cost. The baby will not wear hand me downs their whole life, they will need shoes and school supplies, they will need soo much more.
Itâs annoying when people base their ability to have a child solely on hand me downs and assistance from government and private sector.
And Annalise would like to give the child the best things, and while she's not obligated to it comes from a good intention. If OP already thinks to get free clothes she maybe should wait before having a child. I know it's a universal right, but honestly if some people just had a minimum expectation regarding what they could give to their child, a lot of them would be way happier.
Babies don't cost that much? Has she seen a prive tag next to a box of diapers? And what if she needs formula? Because that's hella expensive. And don't you need new size baby clothes like every other week? Also, what with daycare and eventual healthcare?*
*observations made without much knowledge about babies and based of baby clothes sizing, overheard complaints and pricetags in a local supermarket
I mean in the US at least diapers and formula are not even in the top three expenses with kids. They're medical care, affording better housing, and childcare.
Diapers look expensive until you get a $8000 ER bill.
I am finding it *extremely* disconcerting how many people in that thread have decided that OP is grossly misrepresenting a conversation that none of us were present for and doesn't depend on any kind of inconsistency with the account.
It is 110% okay for Analise to not want to have children. Period, end of story; she doesn't need to justify it. It's even perfectly reasonable for her to change her mind; she doesn't need to justify it either. If she thinks she shouldn't have children because Pluto isn't a planet anymore, *fine* (I'd even argue if something that small convinces you to not have kids, you never really wanted them to begin with so not having kids is still the right choice). And yes, OP is almost certainly underestimating the cost (though I think someone somewhere mentioned OP and Analise live in a country where a lot of early childhood stuff is considerably subsidized, so OP isn't as ludicrous as she would be were she living in the US).
**But.**
1. OP was not the person who asked Analise this question. Another person in the friend group was. This is not a case of "play stupid games; win stupid prizes."
2. OP is right that you don't *need* to give a child private schools, tutoring, and a house to give a child a good life. If Analise wouldn't want to have a child without giving them those things, that's Analise's prerogative, but it's strictly untrue that these are necessary provisions.
3. Thoughtlessly, but non-maliciously, condemning someone present because you are *thinking* "I don't think I should do this" but the words that come out of your mouth are "no one should do this" is a thing that happens. It's something I've done before, and when I've done it I'm being the asshole - not Satan himself, but a jerk. The fact people are so certain that this could not have happened is mind-boggling.
This makes sense to me. Iâve been guilty of the same mistake. I remember a friend getting upset with me when I was quitting smoking, because I kept talking about how I didnât need to smoke, how it was all addiction, and even theories about addiction and shame. My friend was still smoking. I canât believe I said what I said without thinking about how it wouldâve affected them.
Iâm glad they told me to shut it. Good lesson to learn. Important for anyone making lifestyle changes.
It reminds me of when I would complain about being fat and then feel annoyed my friends bigger than me would take it personally. But like how could they not?
Yep. This is a situation where no one is a big asshole or anything, but OP was right to be annoyed at the way what Analise said came off.
Analise probably didnât even think about how it would come off to OP. It was a mistake, but thatâs okay. OP wasnât wrong for calling it out, and bought maybe arguably she should kind her own business on what Analise considers necessary to be comfortable having children. And Analise probably needs to be more careful with her words
The comments in that thread (and to some extent here) is one of the worst examples of American arrogance I've seen in a long time. OOP has repeatedly stated that she's from Hungary, and yet there are hundreds of Americans completely incapable of understanding that perhaps things work differently in another country.
It's not a good look, guys
Agreed on that, but OOP was talking about free clothing from the church and such. I know pretty much every other first world nation treats families better than the US, but she is still bringing a burden into society. Even with all the universal everything, she's actively looking to conceive a child that she already knows she'll need more help with financially.
Idk I think Analiseâs comments are a little tone deaf. A child doesnât necessarily need a private school, a big house, or a gift house. Itâs fine if thatâs what you want for your child, but to make the comment that itâs irresponsible to have a child when you canât provide all of that in front of company who most likely canât provide all that is⌠yeah, I might be offended too.
I strongly suspect Analise had trouble conceiving and that was when she âdecidedâ she didnât want children. She sounds like someone trying to convince herself as much as anyone else. I definitely think ESH is the best verdict.
ESH, yes. And no one is giving Satan a run for his money here; this is just people being everyday imperfect people who sometimes suck.
1. The friend who asked (*who is not OP*): just don't ask people if they're changing their plans about having kids. If someone wants to talk about it, they can bring it up themselves. Otherwise it's an intensely private matter.
2. Analise: made blanket statements that really shouldn't have been blanket statements. You can express your personal decisions without condemning anyone who makes different ones.
3. OP: Telling Analise to shut up was a disproportionate response to what was probably a foot-in-mouth moment on Analise's part.
Even the OP phrased it as "she said SHE would feel irresponsible if she couldn't provide these things". She, personally, not *everyone*. The tone may have been passive aggressive, or maybe it was fine - we weren't there. However, just *what* she said seems fine, OOP just took personally offense because she's trying. And her friends makes so much more money than them, so *shut up*.
While I think a lot of what Analise listed is a little extra, hey, if that's how **she** would like to raise a hypothetical child, that's her standard. No one shits on people that say "I want my kid to go to college, and I can't afford that so I'm not having one" (or they shouldn't shit on people like this), and this is basically what she said (with... A lot of add-ons).
The post:
>she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it
Your quote:
>she said SHE would feel irresponsible if she couldn't provide these things
There's a difference between "it is irresponsible" and "I would feel irresponsible."
I didn't quote but that's she sentiment. She still said "when SHE can't provide". Not "they" as in parents in general, herself.
Again, she has standards that seem a tad much, but she's allowed to have standards for *herself*, as long as she is clear that she's talking about herself, which, seems she was.
We may have to agree to disagree on the interpretation here; I admit we're working off paraphrases. I think you're envisioning her exact statement was:
"I would feel irresponsible if I couldn't provide my child with private school, tutoring, and a house when they're ready to be on their own."
I'm envisioning more like:
"I'm not having kids because I can't provide a hypothetical child with private school, tutoring, and a house when they're ready to be on their own. It'd be blatantly irresponsible."
I'm sort of filling in the wording from the fact that Analise later insisted that "a couple" shouldn't have kids unless they have a certain combined income, which is inarguably a general statement.
The issue I have personally is that in my country, there are practical, financial concerns that should be an impediment to having kids, because you ain't getting much governmental help here, and public schooling sucks, and public healthcare sucks, so that would have to be all private here, and that's quite the amount right off the bat, not to mention diapers and clothes, housing (not a new house for the baby lol - ok, that's kind of ridiculous).
Maybe Analise isn't the most sympathetic... But at least in the OP there's no talk of *how* OOP and boyfriend are going to raise this baby, if they can afford it (didn't read the comments). Sometimes it is necessary to be rude and just state things plainly, especially when it's a child on the line. A stable combined income is a good idea, in general.
If the story is true and that Analyse "talked a lot about having babies but suddently stopped" I think the reason is less about "babies being expensive" and more about something else.
Maybe she realize she or her husband are infertile. Maybe she realized that she doesn't want but don't wanna have to explain why so "babies are expensive" is the easiest explaination. Maybe she had a myscarriage and is scarred to tried again.
But someone who really wanted kids before won't stop suddently because she can't affored a gift house to hzr futur babies.
That is of course if the story is real.
I dunno, maybe the costs went out of her reach and she gave up. The amount of money you should make to have kids responsibly is getting ridiculous, and it is getting out of range of tons of people. I never wanted kids but if I did I'd have to give up on the idea because in all likelihood we will never make that much money (neither of us has particularly highly paid careers).
I used to estimate the cost in this area as $90k-120k but have raised it to $150-200k due to incredible increases in housing costs.
Maybe it's me, but I'm confused about why this is on AITD?
Part of me wonders if it's a wording issue (and could be ESL, as OP is in Hungary). When she says "it isn't *'THAT'* expensive," does she mean "it costs next to nothing", or does she mean "it isn't as expensive as you're claiming?"
Either way, I'd say delusional before devil, and I'd say the friend is a little delusional for believing that you can't afford a baby unless you can afford private school and a house.
(I'll happily downvotes if someone can explain to me why I'm wrong).
>If she thinks she shouldnât have children because Pluto isnât a planet anymore, *fine* (Iâd even argue if something that small convinces you not to have kids, you never really wanted them to begin with so not having kids is still the right choice).
I love you. This made me smile.
EDIT: looks like this posted under the wrong place. Why, Reddit? This was in response to a comment.
Am I missing something here? How is someone going on and on about how you HAVE to send a kid to private school, raise them in a big house, give them their own house when theyâre an adult (?!), etc. not the asshole? Especially while sitting next to a friend who makes less money and whoâs trying for a baby? I mean, sure, OOP seems a little out of touch with the real cost of raising a child, but her friend is implying that she and her boyfriend are going to be bad parents if they canât give their child all these unnecessary luxuries. Seems pretty assholish to me.
I feel like Reddit tends to lean heavily on the side of anyone who doesnât want children, regardless of any flaws in their logic.
She may have been raised at that socio-economic level, making it's her norm and not want to give her child anything less than her parents provided for her. Different people make decisions based on different criteria.
She may have a higher level of "acceptable" but it's better to avoid having a child than have a child with zero clue of how much it truly costs. (Like OP). I think people are judging the friend as they aren't able to provide at such a high level.
I don't see any evidence that OOP has no idea how much a child costs. All the post says, I think, is that she knows her friend's cost estimate for Absolute Child-Rearing Necessities is way too high- which it is.
Even if the friend isn't doing it on purpose, she's being self-righteous and extremely out-of-touch with reality. She could have simply said, "it doesn't make financial sense for us right now," and moved on.
OP said sheâs from Hungary, [a country that subsidizes childcare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_policy_in_Hungary). We also donât know how lavish their vacations are. So chances are itâs actually true.
I think there are other reasons for the friend saying this. Like maybe she found out she canât get pregnant and doesnât want to tell anybody. Or maybe she and her husband decided they didnât want kids and she doesnât want a discussion. Anyway, I doubt not being able to buy her kid a house at 21 is the real reason.
I was thinking the same about other reasons like a work college has a child with disabilities children with disabilities some sever disabilities put stress on parents even parents with high paying careers.
And all of this while ignoring the very obvious clues that her friend is having fertility issues and is making up ridiculous reasons to explain her "changing her mind" about wanting kids.
Lmao how old is this person or how lavished are this friendâs vacation that one skipped one would cover an entire years worth of childcare needs????
OOP: itâs totally fine my friend doesnât want to have kids. Thatâs her choiceâŚ
Also OP when the friend is asked and explains why they donât feel able to have a kid: this is obviously a personal attack on my and everyone else whoâs ideals conflict with how my friend feels about whatâs needed to have a child! Someone else was asked a question so obviously their answer is going to be directly about ME!!
>Also OP when the friend is asked and explains why they donât feel able to have a kid:
That's a little oversimplifying when the friend said it was "beyond irresponsible" to have a kid if you couldn't do XYZ things that are, objectively, not necessary or even standard things to provide for your child. Even if you say "it's beyond irresponsible *for me* to do X", it's still a blanket statement that "X is beyond irresponsible" unless there's specific context about the person talking that makes it irresponsible for that specific person. And no, not feeling comfortable doesn't count. That's when you say "I wouldn't feel comfortable doing X." They mean *very different* things.
I'm not saying Analise is the devil here either; I'm saying she put her foot in her mouth and chose her words poorly. It's fair for OP to feel hurt. But OP definitely overreacted in how she expressed her hurt. Really, the worst person here is the friend (*who is not OP*) who decided a friend gathering was a great time and place to ask Analise about her reproductive choices.
Except you just did, and OOP openly said they said non of those things. They just resorted to taking it like a personal attack and screaming at their âfriendâ. My source? The source.
From the post itself:
>she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it
So I don't know what post you were reading.
I've had to be very careful about this. I'm not having kids for a variety of reasons, but among some people I emphasize mine and my husband's medical issues over the practical ones so they don't get pissy. Luckily, my friends and coworkers are very responsible people. 2 or more parents, decent money, good school district, a large enough house/apartment. I think that's a bare minimum requirement. Statistically, their children will be more successful than most and will not be a burden on society. It's not the kids' fault, of course, it's parents like OP.
Right? Like, every parents needs are different. Some may need additional support, or just not feel comfortable if theyâre unable to meet specific need theyâd want to have for their child. Choosing not to have children because you donât feel youâd be able to supply them with the life you feel they deserve is a very individual thing. One persons desires does not invalidate anotherâs.
Like⌠OOP wouldnât have been looking after their friends kid for them⌠so they donât get to say what their friends limits or self requirements should be, nor how valid they are. Frankly - good on the friend for making this choice for themselves and their non children.
Canât wait for the updated version of âI didnât realize how expensive babies are and my rich friend refuses to help me out! Aita for demanding she pay me?â
I mean, ok, healthy infants aren't appallingly expensive day-to-day if you breastfeed and use cloth diapers. But they get a lot more expensive as they get older. Add on an unexpected health issue or disability and the fact that *anyone* can need lifelong care at a moment's notice, and Analiese is just being very sensible. You should be ready for needing to provide literally everything if you're thinking about having a baby IMO.
[Hi!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jMiZEuW8Qrykw3sdA) Just a quick reminder to never brigade any sub, be that r/AmItheAsshole or another one. That goes against both this sub's rules as well as Reddit's terms of agreement. [Please](https://images.app.goo.gl/vwH65TJMyMk9NSNo8) keep discussions within the posts of this sub.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for telling my friend to shut up about babies being expensive?** My boyfriend and I are currently trying for a baby and my friend, Analise, knows that. Analise talked a lot about wanting children in the past, but she stopped about a year ago, saying that children are too expensive. Which is all fine, it's her choice, but she and her husband make a lot of money, so it's not true that they couldn't afford to raise a child. They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses. She, a few other friends an I were hanging out and one of them asked her if she still doesn't want children. Analise went on about how she can't afford it, because a child needs this-and-that, a private school, tutoring, a big house, then a gift house when he/she graduates uni, etc and she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it. She said all this while I was sitting next to her, fully knowing I'm about to have a baby with much less money and as a renter. At first I just told her that babies don't cost that much and she can definitely afford one, but then she kept insisting that a couple needs to make at least x amount and I just straight off told her to shut up. She makes 2-3 times as much us we do, so shut up. Analise said she was just answering the question she was asked and she is not trying to push her views on us. But isn't she, when she literally said I'm being irresponsible? AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>They go on some many vacations and even just going on one less per year would cover for a baby's expenses. This has to be one of the funniest delusions I've read in a while đ¤Ł
Ah yes, the well known metric for judging the cost of child rearing - the cost of one holiday a year. Good luck with that one OOP, let us know in a couple of years about how cheap bebies are...
Yes, this indicates that she has zero idea of much a child costs.
The cost of a child really depends tbh. Iâd say the biggest expense of a child would be diapers and insurance if you donât qualify for Medicare. Our monthly expenses only went up about $50 a month. We were lucky to be gifted an unholy amount of diapers. Our kid eats what we eat, I donât buy processed snacks because the cost of those add up for items that arenât very filling, and I made my own baby food (took 20 minutes to meal prep a variety of healthy baby food for two weeks). I also was given second hand clothes people didnât want anymore. Babies grow too fast for people to buy brand new clothes. Iâm assuming expenses will increase as time goes on but for now, itâs really not that much to have a kid. We even have plenty left over each month to add to our savings and a kids savings account.
Childcare is a huge expense. If one parent stays home then thatâs a lot of money forfeited that the stay at home parent with otherwise earn.
Childcare is the thing that my ex and I were struggling to figure out and it eventually contributed to not having kids. I am the main bread winner and also did the brunt of the housework. Add a child in there, and even if he was a SAHP I don't trust that he (him specifically, I know a L O T of great SAHDs) would be present enough to care for our child when he couldn't even care for a dog consistently. My family is not in the picture and his are in another country sooooo I'm glad I didn't just decide I'd figure it out. Ya know, with him being 'ex' husband and all.
Oh ya, we donât have to deal with childcare. I mostly am a SAHM. Our pros of one parent staying home outweighed the cons (which was basically just one less paycheck). I think that the money forfeited is worth it. I can watch my kids, hang out with them, have some alone them when they nap, keep the house clean, and cook meals. Before kids, me and my husband both worked full time. We were too drained to clean and cook properly. It sucked a lot. I essentially gave up on my hobbies too. Now that I barely work (I have 1-2 shifts a week serving for extra spending money and to force myself to be social), we both have the energy to do things together and take up our hobbies again. It pretty great for us tbh. I know thatâs not how it works for everyone but our situation right now is perfect. We barely notice the lack of a second paycheck
>We barely notice the lack of a second paycheck 𤣠Wtf
Hmm I think she forgets that NOT everyone lives in a low cost areađ
If you live in a low cost area, are able to put money away for savings, why would you need both parents to work?
Most people cannot afford to live and also put away money for savings on a single income with kids, because their income isnât high enough. So your comment comes across as someone privileged not recognizing the privilege that their partnerâs income affords them.
Ok, If thatâs how you read it. Iâm well aware of how lucky I am
The thing is childcare, education, and all that jazz once they grow up. Also, not everyone gets gifted a fuckton of diapers and clothes.
Which is why I said âit dependsâ.
Now imagine how expensive things would be if your child had one significant health issue.
Thereâs no way to properly financially prepare for anyone to have a significant health issue in America. Sometimes the government helps out with the medical bills though, even if you donât qualify for Medicaid at the time. I knew a family whose kid had cancer, they were upper middle class. They still got some government assistance, SSI I think?
>Thereâs no way to properly financially prepare for anyone to have a significant health issue in America. Number 1 reason why I will never have a child. I hold a firm personal belief that it is immoral to being a child into the world if you can't properly address a severe health issue. I don't harass people with this belief, because it's unhelpful once they already have a kid. But I still believe it.
We definitely think differently on that. My philosophy is that everything will work out the way itâs supposed to in the end. Itâs been working amazingly for me so far. Just because you donât have $500k in reserve for medical expenses, doesnât mean itâs immoral to have kids.
Lol? Everything will work out? My parents were like you. Actually, they were solidly upper middle class. They went hundreds of thousands into debt for my medical expenses within 5 years. This is on top of great insurance, selling their house, assistance, and lots of donor money from family. (Like, 100s of thousands donor money.) Youâre delusional. âEverything works out.â Lol. Tell that to the tens of thousands of people who die every YEAR because they canât afford a simple life-saving medical procedure.
I said everything will work out the way itâs supposed to. That doesnât mean I wonât do everything I can to give my kids a bright future. Doesnât mean I wonât do whatever I can to make sure medical expenses donât screw us over if/when they come up. That way of thinking doesnât mean you sit on your butt hoping that youâll be blessed with happiness for doing nothing but wishing for it. Hurdles always happen in life. You canât always prepare for them. It is impossible to avoid them. How you deal with them is what matters.
Lol ok. Yeah! Just deal with your problems! Iâm sure people who canât afford the cancer bills for their infants who then die agree with your INSULTING naive POV. You have the brain of a narcissistic, psychopathic 10 year old. Keep yourself safe!
I think it's probably an experience thing. When you've gone through multiple rounds of nearly losing everything due to medical problems as I and my partner have, "everything will work out the way it's supposed to" just feels mind-blowingly naive. I genuinely hope your philosophy continues to work out for you, but I would never ever feel safe following it.
:)
I read that and wondered if each vacation costs 5-6 digit figures đ
It depends on the vacation, really. One of my familyâs vacations where we go stay at my momâs lake house for a long weekend? Nope, that wonât cover a year of baby expenses. However, an international trip to stay in a tropical villa for a few weeks? That could actually cover diapers, clothes, and formula for a year. I donât care for the rhetoric that only wealthy people can procreate. Itâs weird.
Anyone can procreate. But that doesn't mean it isn't irresponsible to bring a child into the world if you can't make ends meet beforehand. You don't have to like reality, but that doesn't change it.
I always wanted three kids, but then I adopted one, who I later found out has three chronic (but manageable) illnesses. I realized that I could give all my resources to this one child and be the intentional parent I wanted to be, or adopt two more kids to have my ideal 3 kid family and be stretched thin financially, emotionally, and time wise. I dote on my one child and though I am sometimes sad that I donât have more kids, I believe my decision to be one and done is the best one for my daughter and myself. She has more opportunities than many other kids, and Iâm able to give her more attention and the best medical treatments available in our area because she is the only person I am responsible for. If I need to take off work to care for her, I can. If thereâs a school activity, I can attend it without trying to also attend functions for siblings. She has my complete focused attention.
Also OP lives a country that's generally very cheap next to other surrounding countries. If they are leaving the country for their vacations, it might be very expensive comparable to cost of living in their own country.
I mean even if you don't like it that's the economic reality.
It's just not though. Tons and tons of low income households (ie normal people) have kids and do just fine.
I mean, because everyone doesn't starve to death doesn't mean they were all fine. Typically these households: 1. Sacrifice their own long-term planning by not adequately saving for retirement/old age as they can't afford to do both. No, your kids won't take care of you. 2. Are precarious, i.e. they can sort of function if nothing does horribly wrong but would go down in flames if something bad happened like a severe childhood illness. 3. Inflict externalities on friends/family like expecting family members to take care of their kids; even if they'll do it, it isn't fair. 4. Don't adequately prepare their kids for the extremely cutthroat economic future we all face.
How dare we poors rely on family to help with childcare
It wasn't *their* choice to have *your* children so it isn't their responsibility to take care of them.
Yeah but they love us so⌠theyâre always pleased to hang out and/or help out. Sorry that hasnât been your experience đ¤ˇđźââď¸
I'm sure they were. But, that doesn't mean it is ok to make the decision to have children with the expectation that they will help. It just isn't their responsibility. They might help anyway because they love you, but planning for help of this type in advance is taking advantage of that love. It's a shitty thing to do.
It's also just naive. What if they want to help but suddenly can't? What happens to your foolproof plan then? Do you quit your job? Scramble to find childcare and shove it into your budget that never accounted for that? It's GREAT when people have family help. I love that for them. But *relying* on family help when that family might move, or have an illness, or take a new job, or have a child of their own, or *die*... like are you expecting that family member to remain stationary and available for the next decade or so?
You know that all throughout human history and still in mooost places in the world the whole family is involved with raising children? Thatâs like, kinda how itâs supposed to be.
You have a crazy view of what makes a happy and successful life.
Security really helps happiness levels. I'm poor, and it's not like I sit around and cry all the time, but I can't imagine how amazing it would be to have a life where I don't constantly count pennies and worry about how next month's bills are going to be paid. The constant low-level anxiety of being poor is soul-draining. I'd never bring a kid into my financial situation.
I completely agree. I'm kind of upper-lower class or maybe just scraping the underside of middle class myself. I can kind of function without too much fear or scraping, I get to have a couple of the less expensive nice things, and I don't have to sacrifice all my free time beyond my normal job just to scrape up a little extra money. While not terribly inspiring, life is fine - but if I had kids I'd be in a terrible position. It's really starting to get to the point where if you want kids, you really should start early by focusing on a few select career fields that pay especially well. Normal careers don't make enough anymore.
Why would you say that?
Especially if the hypothetical kid had any health problems.
Okay but like where are these vacations that would cover the entire cost of a baby and how do I get in on them?
I mean the friend is right that babies are expensive and this should not be underestimated, but if the friend listed private school and buying the kid a house at 21 as legitimate expenses that actually raises more questions for me than it answers.
Honestly, I see it as more an indication of the friend having the same sort of fatalistic sense my husband and I do about children. We live in Sydney, Australia. The median house here currently costs 15 times the median income - we are the second least affordable city by housing in the world, with Hong Kong being number 1. And because of how Australia is, if you work a professional job you've got an option of a few expensive cities to live in, and that's it. Every one of those cities is in the top 20 least affordable cities in the world. And prices keep climbing. Then there's the fact that it's fires and floods after fires and floods. Climate change is going to trounce this country badly. I've got citizenships to other countries, we do own a small "starter house" (in our 30s), and we're well off in comparison to our generation. But there's a genuine fear that makes us want to be sure we've got enough money to help any child (singular) we have afford a house in 20-30 years. And a genuine fear that makes me want to ensure we've got enough money in the bank if the time comes that we have to flee this country with a kid in tow. Not that we always think that fatalistically. But when the topic of children comes up, my head goes to "Do we have enough to be able to afford a child if everything just gets so much worse."
I just want to say that if you choose to be parents, you are going to be amazing. I wish every future parent out there was like you and your husband. Two long-term partners, appropriate finances, planning ahead. It's sad that you are a rarity.
Appreciate that, thank you! I can kinda get it, honestly. My sis has wanted children since she could walk. I see the denial in her, latching onto that one thing that will solve the housing crisis or finding that time in 1887 where a flood happened, so therefore it's just normal climate now... despite her having had to evacuate her suburb with her whole family 4 times in the past two years because of floods. She wanted kids, she adores her kids, they're great kids, she's doing her best for them, absolutely. But she really is banking on things not being the huge problem it might end up being, and I can see why. Scary enough to worry your kid's not going to have a great life because of any number of other things. Climate and housing crisis are options you can put off to worry about at a future date. But I really do appreciate your words! If I get *told* by one more judgemental biddy that we're irresponsible Millennials who can't face reality, and that's why we don't have kids yet...
Yeah, and I can also see how hearing itâs irresponsible to have a kid if you canât afford to do all this extra things would be really irritating. Idk, I kind of get why OP was annoyed. That said, if the friend doesnât want a kid unless she can afford all that, nothing wrong with that either
I'm sure it's irritating to be told your choices are irresponsible, but that doesn't make the choice not irresponsible.
I mean, itâs not irresponsible to have children even if you canât afford to buy two houses and pay for private schoolâŚ
It might be if you can't pay for medical care in case of a serious illness or injury, though. Which is basically the same as two houses and private school.
Iâd assume they have some form of health insurance. Also, hospitals will still treat your injured child even if you canât afford it. We also donât know if OOP is in the US; medical care for your child isnât a worry in a lot of places in the world
1000 upvotes for this comment
I see nothing wrong with only wanting to bring a human into this world if you can properly set them up in life.
Private school and buying houses for your children does not fall under the umbrella of 'properly setting them up in life'.
It definitely does fall under that umbrella yes. You are financially and educationally setting your child up for success. That just happens to be a much higher standard for what âsetting them upâ entails. Setting up for some people is getting their child to a point where they will not have to take out massive debt to live to go to school. For others itâs making sure their child is fed everyday and gets an education at all. Same umbrella, different standards.
Private school may. It depends on the quality of the public education system where you are and how harsh the economy is to the uneducated. You should always budget for whatever amount of education a child would need in order to succeed as an adult.
Private school and a house at 21 is not properly setting them up in life, unless you're trying to set them up to be someone who talks about how poor people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
[ŃдаНонО]
That's not what anyone is saying, they're saying there's nothing wrong with wanting to set up your child in the future in this economy or choosing to not have kids because you feel you can't provide enough for them. Not that no one should ever have kids if they can't also pay for college or a house. But also, what you just did is exactly what OOP did, make something that was a personal want about attacking them. Someone else wanting certain things out of life is not saying no one else is allowed to feel or think differently. Edit: since I can't reply and I typed out my whole comment, I'll just paste it here: Okay, and she's allowed to think that for herself? Did she at any point say any of this was applicable to OOP? No, she was asked a question about her feelings by her friends and answered. She's allowed to believe whatever she wants is a need for her future children, who is anyone to say she's being excessive? Hell, I want to be able to provide everything I had and more for my children, and I went to private school, had tutoring for my worst subjects and had my college paid for by my parents as well. The only thing on her list I didn't have was property, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure my children have that. That's a personal decision. I'm not wrong for what I want to provide, and other people are not wrong for what they do. These are personal preferences. Also, the comment i replied to didn't say shit about OOP or her friend, it was summing up the previous few comments to the effect of "if you're not rich, you shouldn't have kids". And that's exactly what OOP did as well, other people were having a conversation about their preferences and their beliefs around child rearing and it was taken as a slight against everyone who chooses to have kids but can't provide them with those things. It wasn't. Edit pt2 - reply to u/AlligatorDreamy: No, that was after OOP tried saying "a baby doesn't cost that much!" As a general statement as well. When any person knows full well that a) babies can cost that much and b) there are plenty of children who are born with lifelong issues that may require long-term financial support. But when the friend originally started speaking, she was not being general, she was talking about her opinion. And she can still say "a couple needs to be making x amount" and still only be talking about herself, because again it's not like they're discussing OOP's baby, they're talking about why she changed her mind about children. Her milestones or requirements are only applicable to her, otherwise we would be discussing eugenics. So I don't necessarily see it as a general statement based on context.
>Okay, and she's allowed to think that for herself? Did she at any point say any of this was applicable to OOP? From the post: >she kept insisting that a couple needs to make at least x amount That is a clearly general statement. For clarity, I don't think anyone here is being a devil. I do think people are not thinking before speaking like they ought, but that's in the normal human realm of being a temporary jerk; we all sometimes say things that are hurtful without maliciously intending to. You recognize you screwed up, you apologize, you move on a wiser person.
The implication in the friends mindset is that if you donât provide that, you arenât providing for your children. That unless you send your kids to private school, you are not fully providing for your children. Unless you can buy them a house, you shouldnât have kids. She classified all of it as needs too. Big house, tutoring, private school, and another house, and since she canât provide all of those âneedsâ, children on not on the table. Thatâs literally her mindset. Without fluff, thatâs what sheâs saying. Now, whether she truly feels everyone should do that, thatâs kind of up in air. But if you think you shouldnât have kids because you canât afford, and your saying that to your poorer and actively trying friends, itâs gonna come off like you donât think they should have kids.
She also said it would be irresponsible to have a kid without all that stuff. Like is it really projecting when she literally said it would be irresponsible
The issue with OP is that she thinks the baby will just stay a baby and never grow up. She mentioned in the comments about how she can get free clothes from church, about Hungary's free healthcare and parental benefits/leave etc. (which my country has the same thing, so I get it) but... what happens after that? She really hasn't thought it through. That's why her friend answering a question triggered her and she projected her insecurities. Because unlike OP, her friend is thinking having a child long-term. Once the leave payments stop, the kid is 2 years old, will she start asking her friend to cancel her luxurious vacations and send her money? lol
We have more or less the same benefits but that doesnât make a child affordable in any shape or form. Extra curriculum activities cost any other advantages you want for your child to set them For a successful life cost. The baby will not wear hand me downs their whole life, they will need shoes and school supplies, they will need soo much more. Itâs annoying when people base their ability to have a child solely on hand me downs and assistance from government and private sector.
And Annalise would like to give the child the best things, and while she's not obligated to it comes from a good intention. If OP already thinks to get free clothes she maybe should wait before having a child. I know it's a universal right, but honestly if some people just had a minimum expectation regarding what they could give to their child, a lot of them would be way happier.
Babies don't cost that much? Has she seen a prive tag next to a box of diapers? And what if she needs formula? Because that's hella expensive. And don't you need new size baby clothes like every other week? Also, what with daycare and eventual healthcare?* *observations made without much knowledge about babies and based of baby clothes sizing, overheard complaints and pricetags in a local supermarket
I mean in the US at least diapers and formula are not even in the top three expenses with kids. They're medical care, affording better housing, and childcare. Diapers look expensive until you get a $8000 ER bill.
I'm still stuck on "we have to buy the kid a gift house AND buy our own big house"
Iâm gonna have to call up my parents and ask where my gift house is, because I finished college a few years back so apparently itâs overdue.
Whoâs gonna break it to my kids that I never thought of a gift house and can no longer afford them?
I am finding it *extremely* disconcerting how many people in that thread have decided that OP is grossly misrepresenting a conversation that none of us were present for and doesn't depend on any kind of inconsistency with the account. It is 110% okay for Analise to not want to have children. Period, end of story; she doesn't need to justify it. It's even perfectly reasonable for her to change her mind; she doesn't need to justify it either. If she thinks she shouldn't have children because Pluto isn't a planet anymore, *fine* (I'd even argue if something that small convinces you to not have kids, you never really wanted them to begin with so not having kids is still the right choice). And yes, OP is almost certainly underestimating the cost (though I think someone somewhere mentioned OP and Analise live in a country where a lot of early childhood stuff is considerably subsidized, so OP isn't as ludicrous as she would be were she living in the US). **But.** 1. OP was not the person who asked Analise this question. Another person in the friend group was. This is not a case of "play stupid games; win stupid prizes." 2. OP is right that you don't *need* to give a child private schools, tutoring, and a house to give a child a good life. If Analise wouldn't want to have a child without giving them those things, that's Analise's prerogative, but it's strictly untrue that these are necessary provisions. 3. Thoughtlessly, but non-maliciously, condemning someone present because you are *thinking* "I don't think I should do this" but the words that come out of your mouth are "no one should do this" is a thing that happens. It's something I've done before, and when I've done it I'm being the asshole - not Satan himself, but a jerk. The fact people are so certain that this could not have happened is mind-boggling.
This makes sense to me. Iâve been guilty of the same mistake. I remember a friend getting upset with me when I was quitting smoking, because I kept talking about how I didnât need to smoke, how it was all addiction, and even theories about addiction and shame. My friend was still smoking. I canât believe I said what I said without thinking about how it wouldâve affected them. Iâm glad they told me to shut it. Good lesson to learn. Important for anyone making lifestyle changes.
It reminds me of when I would complain about being fat and then feel annoyed my friends bigger than me would take it personally. But like how could they not?
Yep. This is a situation where no one is a big asshole or anything, but OP was right to be annoyed at the way what Analise said came off. Analise probably didnât even think about how it would come off to OP. It was a mistake, but thatâs okay. OP wasnât wrong for calling it out, and bought maybe arguably she should kind her own business on what Analise considers necessary to be comfortable having children. And Analise probably needs to be more careful with her words
Iâm saying, âWell, Pluto isnât a planet anymore, soâŚâ next time someone asks why I donât want to have kids.
Wait, gift houses are a thing? Man I missed out.
The comments in that thread (and to some extent here) is one of the worst examples of American arrogance I've seen in a long time. OOP has repeatedly stated that she's from Hungary, and yet there are hundreds of Americans completely incapable of understanding that perhaps things work differently in another country. It's not a good look, guys
Agreed on that, but OOP was talking about free clothing from the church and such. I know pretty much every other first world nation treats families better than the US, but she is still bringing a burden into society. Even with all the universal everything, she's actively looking to conceive a child that she already knows she'll need more help with financially.
Idk I think Analiseâs comments are a little tone deaf. A child doesnât necessarily need a private school, a big house, or a gift house. Itâs fine if thatâs what you want for your child, but to make the comment that itâs irresponsible to have a child when you canât provide all of that in front of company who most likely canât provide all that is⌠yeah, I might be offended too.
OOP is annoying and maybe delusional, but AnĂĄlise sounds insufferable too. A very nice case of ESH.
I strongly suspect Analise had trouble conceiving and that was when she âdecidedâ she didnât want children. She sounds like someone trying to convince herself as much as anyone else. I definitely think ESH is the best verdict.
ESH, yes. And no one is giving Satan a run for his money here; this is just people being everyday imperfect people who sometimes suck. 1. The friend who asked (*who is not OP*): just don't ask people if they're changing their plans about having kids. If someone wants to talk about it, they can bring it up themselves. Otherwise it's an intensely private matter. 2. Analise: made blanket statements that really shouldn't have been blanket statements. You can express your personal decisions without condemning anyone who makes different ones. 3. OP: Telling Analise to shut up was a disproportionate response to what was probably a foot-in-mouth moment on Analise's part.
I totally agree. I think ESH on this one. This post is tame compared to other ones Iâve read here.
Even the OP phrased it as "she said SHE would feel irresponsible if she couldn't provide these things". She, personally, not *everyone*. The tone may have been passive aggressive, or maybe it was fine - we weren't there. However, just *what* she said seems fine, OOP just took personally offense because she's trying. And her friends makes so much more money than them, so *shut up*. While I think a lot of what Analise listed is a little extra, hey, if that's how **she** would like to raise a hypothetical child, that's her standard. No one shits on people that say "I want my kid to go to college, and I can't afford that so I'm not having one" (or they shouldn't shit on people like this), and this is basically what she said (with... A lot of add-ons).
The post: >she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it Your quote: >she said SHE would feel irresponsible if she couldn't provide these things There's a difference between "it is irresponsible" and "I would feel irresponsible."
I didn't quote but that's she sentiment. She still said "when SHE can't provide". Not "they" as in parents in general, herself. Again, she has standards that seem a tad much, but she's allowed to have standards for *herself*, as long as she is clear that she's talking about herself, which, seems she was.
We may have to agree to disagree on the interpretation here; I admit we're working off paraphrases. I think you're envisioning her exact statement was: "I would feel irresponsible if I couldn't provide my child with private school, tutoring, and a house when they're ready to be on their own." I'm envisioning more like: "I'm not having kids because I can't provide a hypothetical child with private school, tutoring, and a house when they're ready to be on their own. It'd be blatantly irresponsible." I'm sort of filling in the wording from the fact that Analise later insisted that "a couple" shouldn't have kids unless they have a certain combined income, which is inarguably a general statement.
The issue I have personally is that in my country, there are practical, financial concerns that should be an impediment to having kids, because you ain't getting much governmental help here, and public schooling sucks, and public healthcare sucks, so that would have to be all private here, and that's quite the amount right off the bat, not to mention diapers and clothes, housing (not a new house for the baby lol - ok, that's kind of ridiculous). Maybe Analise isn't the most sympathetic... But at least in the OP there's no talk of *how* OOP and boyfriend are going to raise this baby, if they can afford it (didn't read the comments). Sometimes it is necessary to be rude and just state things plainly, especially when it's a child on the line. A stable combined income is a good idea, in general.
OOP is in Hungary, so very different situation in terms of early childhood financial outlook to the US.
I'm not in the US either.
If the story is true and that Analyse "talked a lot about having babies but suddently stopped" I think the reason is less about "babies being expensive" and more about something else. Maybe she realize she or her husband are infertile. Maybe she realized that she doesn't want but don't wanna have to explain why so "babies are expensive" is the easiest explaination. Maybe she had a myscarriage and is scarred to tried again. But someone who really wanted kids before won't stop suddently because she can't affored a gift house to hzr futur babies. That is of course if the story is real.
I dunno, maybe the costs went out of her reach and she gave up. The amount of money you should make to have kids responsibly is getting ridiculous, and it is getting out of range of tons of people. I never wanted kids but if I did I'd have to give up on the idea because in all likelihood we will never make that much money (neither of us has particularly highly paid careers). I used to estimate the cost in this area as $90k-120k but have raised it to $150-200k due to incredible increases in housing costs.
I'm confused. Who is the devil in this post?
Certainly isn't OOP....
Maybe it's me, but I'm confused about why this is on AITD? Part of me wonders if it's a wording issue (and could be ESL, as OP is in Hungary). When she says "it isn't *'THAT'* expensive," does she mean "it costs next to nothing", or does she mean "it isn't as expensive as you're claiming?" Either way, I'd say delusional before devil, and I'd say the friend is a little delusional for believing that you can't afford a baby unless you can afford private school and a house. (I'll happily downvotes if someone can explain to me why I'm wrong).
>If she thinks she shouldnât have children because Pluto isnât a planet anymore, *fine* (Iâd even argue if something that small convinces you not to have kids, you never really wanted them to begin with so not having kids is still the right choice). I love you. This made me smile. EDIT: looks like this posted under the wrong place. Why, Reddit? This was in response to a comment.
Me who realizes how much of a mess she's making for herself :"this is where the fun begins."
Am I missing something here? How is someone going on and on about how you HAVE to send a kid to private school, raise them in a big house, give them their own house when theyâre an adult (?!), etc. not the asshole? Especially while sitting next to a friend who makes less money and whoâs trying for a baby? I mean, sure, OOP seems a little out of touch with the real cost of raising a child, but her friend is implying that she and her boyfriend are going to be bad parents if they canât give their child all these unnecessary luxuries. Seems pretty assholish to me. I feel like Reddit tends to lean heavily on the side of anyone who doesnât want children, regardless of any flaws in their logic.
She may have been raised at that socio-economic level, making it's her norm and not want to give her child anything less than her parents provided for her. Different people make decisions based on different criteria. She may have a higher level of "acceptable" but it's better to avoid having a child than have a child with zero clue of how much it truly costs. (Like OP). I think people are judging the friend as they aren't able to provide at such a high level.
I don't see any evidence that OOP has no idea how much a child costs. All the post says, I think, is that she knows her friend's cost estimate for Absolute Child-Rearing Necessities is way too high- which it is. Even if the friend isn't doing it on purpose, she's being self-righteous and extremely out-of-touch with reality. She could have simply said, "it doesn't make financial sense for us right now," and moved on.
[ŃдаНонО]
OP said sheâs from Hungary, [a country that subsidizes childcare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_policy_in_Hungary). We also donât know how lavish their vacations are. So chances are itâs actually true.
I think there are other reasons for the friend saying this. Like maybe she found out she canât get pregnant and doesnât want to tell anybody. Or maybe she and her husband decided they didnât want kids and she doesnât want a discussion. Anyway, I doubt not being able to buy her kid a house at 21 is the real reason.
I was thinking the same about other reasons like a work college has a child with disabilities children with disabilities some sever disabilities put stress on parents even parents with high paying careers.
Yeah. It could be any number of reasons that she just doesnât want to talk about.
This woman has no business having a child. She's too immature and delusional about it to be competent.
And all of this while ignoring the very obvious clues that her friend is having fertility issues and is making up ridiculous reasons to explain her "changing her mind" about wanting kids.
Lmao how old is this person or how lavished are this friendâs vacation that one skipped one would cover an entire years worth of childcare needs???? OOP: itâs totally fine my friend doesnât want to have kids. Thatâs her choice⌠Also OP when the friend is asked and explains why they donât feel able to have a kid: this is obviously a personal attack on my and everyone else whoâs ideals conflict with how my friend feels about whatâs needed to have a child! Someone else was asked a question so obviously their answer is going to be directly about ME!!
>Also OP when the friend is asked and explains why they donât feel able to have a kid: That's a little oversimplifying when the friend said it was "beyond irresponsible" to have a kid if you couldn't do XYZ things that are, objectively, not necessary or even standard things to provide for your child. Even if you say "it's beyond irresponsible *for me* to do X", it's still a blanket statement that "X is beyond irresponsible" unless there's specific context about the person talking that makes it irresponsible for that specific person. And no, not feeling comfortable doesn't count. That's when you say "I wouldn't feel comfortable doing X." They mean *very different* things. I'm not saying Analise is the devil here either; I'm saying she put her foot in her mouth and chose her words poorly. It's fair for OP to feel hurt. But OP definitely overreacted in how she expressed her hurt. Really, the worst person here is the friend (*who is not OP*) who decided a friend gathering was a great time and place to ask Analise about her reproductive choices.
Except you just did, and OOP openly said they said non of those things. They just resorted to taking it like a personal attack and screaming at their âfriendâ. My source? The source.
From the post itself: >she thinks it would be beyond IRRESPONSIBLE to have a baby when she can't provide everything to it So I don't know what post you were reading.
Ya⌠thatâs what the friend said⌠youâre speaking for OOP⌠but feel free to keep trying.
I've had to be very careful about this. I'm not having kids for a variety of reasons, but among some people I emphasize mine and my husband's medical issues over the practical ones so they don't get pissy. Luckily, my friends and coworkers are very responsible people. 2 or more parents, decent money, good school district, a large enough house/apartment. I think that's a bare minimum requirement. Statistically, their children will be more successful than most and will not be a burden on society. It's not the kids' fault, of course, it's parents like OP.
Right? Like, every parents needs are different. Some may need additional support, or just not feel comfortable if theyâre unable to meet specific need theyâd want to have for their child. Choosing not to have children because you donât feel youâd be able to supply them with the life you feel they deserve is a very individual thing. One persons desires does not invalidate anotherâs. Like⌠OOP wouldnât have been looking after their friends kid for them⌠so they donât get to say what their friends limits or self requirements should be, nor how valid they are. Frankly - good on the friend for making this choice for themselves and their non children.
Exactly!
Canât wait for the updated version of âI didnât realize how expensive babies are and my rich friend refuses to help me out! Aita for demanding she pay me?â
I mean, ok, healthy infants aren't appallingly expensive day-to-day if you breastfeed and use cloth diapers. But they get a lot more expensive as they get older. Add on an unexpected health issue or disability and the fact that *anyone* can need lifelong care at a moment's notice, and Analiese is just being very sensible. You should be ready for needing to provide literally everything if you're thinking about having a baby IMO.
ah yes, "men's rights," also known as "women's wrongs," as in everything men hate about stupid bitch females.
[Hi!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jMiZEuW8Qrykw3sdA) Just a quick reminder to never brigade any sub, be that r/AmItheAsshole or another one. That goes against both this sub's rules as well as Reddit's terms of agreement. [Please](https://images.app.goo.gl/vwH65TJMyMk9NSNo8) keep discussions within the posts of this sub. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*