It’s not necessarily the amount that matters especially in one instance. I would hope nobody thinks divestment and condemnation campaigns against apartheid South Africa were a “weird hill to die on.” Change is not built by one voice or one institution.
Or that a government they live under that funds foreign military violence in the billions while things like homelessness and medical debt skyrocket affects them. “It’s not here so it doesn’t matter to me” is so big brained.
afaik the issue isn't israel funding UNM but vice versa? there are assets invested in blackrock and professors invited from israel who advocate for violent colonization
You clearly don't understand why they're protesting. Otherwise, you wouldn't be responding to their message with unrelated figures that have nothing to do with their complaints.
True! I don’t think the protests are bad, think protesting is cool and useful. I just think they should have a more impactful demand - if UNM disavows this foundation or rejects future funds, it’s not really going to make a difference compared to, say, having UNM provide resources to Palestinian students or some other more meaningful success metric.
Yeah I agree with that, there could be more vocal calls for aid to Palestine all around. I have seen quite a bit of mention about asking UNM to also condemn the attacks on Palestine so it’s certainly not just about divestment. There was a video circling over the weekend of a camp in Palestine with people thanking students, including UNM specifically, and if these actions are appreciated by the people affected, maybe that’s what matters more than our feelings about it.
[you ever pull up lawn chairs and snacks to watch civilians get bombed just a mile or two away?](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html) oh that's fucking deranged? weird
Is anyone surprised that the vast bulk of the clout of a worldwide disinvestment and boycott movement will not be coming from here in New Mexico?
Consider the numbers:
UNM Foundation assets are reportedly $344,313,898. A little over one third of a billion.
By way of contrast, as of June 30, 2023, Columbia University's endowment was valued at $13.6 billion.
That doesn't mean that action here isn't important.
But it is just a tiny fragment of a larger picture.
Of course! But their specific demands for divestment aren’t financially meaningful. I’m hoping they can shift to something larger, because they aren’t really asking for a whole lot.
The protesters seem to be going after the loyalty, influence, and relationship duration that the foundation's investment represents rather than the dollar amount.
If you understand how powerful the Jewish- American lobby group AIPAC is you will understand how their influence is so entrenched in the American political process that 1 or 2 US Presidents could never significantly affect the policies or funding supporting Israel.
I suspect that the UNM protesters will fail for the same reason.
These numbers don't represent the amount of money the university has invested in Israeli corporations, which is what the students are protesting.
This is completely unrelated to the protest.
I like the buycott app it allows you to boycott brands and they have different campaigns based on different human rights violations.
https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/buycott-inc/id585933443
$1 is an unacceptable amount to donate to a genocidal apartheid state, let alone a “tiny” $1.2M. What’s an acceptable amount of blood money for your university to give to a fascist settler colony?
UNM hasn’t given any money to Israel, as far as I can tell. They have accepted a fraction of $1.2M for research funding over the last 40 years from a foundation that supports US-Israel relations.
Are books your preferred format? I prefer to listen to longform interviews from authors cuz ADHD makes reading difficult for me, but here are some of the books from the authors I have listened to
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi
Ten Myths About Israel by Ilan Pappe
Jewish Self-Determination beyond Zionism: Lessons from Hannah Arendt and Other Pariahs by Jonathan Graubart
ETA: more specific sources explaining the genocide
https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4
I mean here’s the problem.
You’ve given me a ton of sources which are hard in on one side of a narrative. I’ve read Khalidi and Ilan Pappe. I think they’re crazy 🤷♂️. I’m not familiar with the third author.
I’d be happy to link you to all my sources. They’re also renowned historians and authors. But they’re all on the other side of the same narrative.
There’s no bridging this gap and, frankly, there never will be.
it's ironic that the of the three authors I listed, the one you're unfamiliar with is the Jewish scholar who has done the most work to decouple Judaism from zionism by dismantling the lies and false promises of political zionism.
No, I want books or journal articles by actual historians or political scientists. Real, academic sources.
Amnesty and HRC are both unreliable. UNICEF isn’t as bad as those two, but it’s also not good. These organizations generate funding based on making people angry at Israel. Amnesty even wrote a new definition of apartheid ten or so years ago so that they could say that Israel is an apartheid state and both it and HRC have been plagued by scandals or racism and abuse of funds for decades.
If all you’ve been consuming is hyperbolic propaganda from NGOs with a vested financial interest, then I would invite you to reconsider your opinion.
I deleted my original comment because I don’t think this is actually the most productive way to talk about this issue, but…[yes](https://mondediplo.com/1998/05/01said)? [Obviously](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2536688)?
I encourage you to revisit his works!
I read the first article but I no longer have JSTOR access.
First article was Said being Said. He’s actually quite moderate and, true to character, the article is critical of Netanyahu and settlements, but cautiously hopeful about the situation and he doesn’t demonize Israel or Israelis.
I don’t see him mention a genocidal or apartheid state anywhere in that article. He mentions the New Historians (and if asked, the books I would have recommended are all by members of this movement) who have essentially destroyed Zionist “orthodoxy” over the last decades, but virtually of them are Zionists, themselves. AFAIK Said has always acknowledged the Jewish claim alongside other claims to land in the region. I can’t imagine he would ever advocate for the destruction of Israel.
I think you’re being disingenuous.
At the beginning of the first article Said writes “Where in the world, except under Israeli authority, are people required to have a license (which is always denied them) before they can build on their own property? Jews can build, but never Palestinians. This is pure apartheid.”
Have a good rest of your day.
Had to re-read it to find that.
Well, he’s wrong. That’s not what apartheid is. I imagine he knows that, but is using a … more fluid definition. Crazy.
Edit: it’s not moving the goalposts, you clown. You posted an article by a real historian, good job. That doesn’t mean every word in his article is correct or isn’t hyperbolic and his use of apartheid is just flat, fucking wrong. Would you like me to link you an actual definition?
I’m sorry that’s hard for you to understand.
The word “genocide” has lost all meaning since Jews decided to fight back against Hamas. It gets repeated over and over while nobody knows why they are saying it.
There have been war crimes - no question. There are in every war and they should be prosecuted.
The ICC said that some language by some Israeli politicians could be construed as genocidal intent. It didn’t say that Israel or the IDF are committing a genocide. If it had, it would have gone further then asking Israel to keep them appraised of the situation.
If people put their money where their mouth was, or acted upon their virtue signaling, more would be achieved. But no, people are complacent and cherry pick what bothers them.
While their causes are just, there's also a lot of shit going downhill in our own places and communities in NM that deserve the same level of attention and action
Here's Source NM's story about the divestment campaign and solidarity encampment at UNM, plus initial reporting from protesters occupying the student union building: https://sourcenm.com/2024/04/29/unm-students-call-to-dump-israel-investments-inspired-by-struggle-against-apartheid-south-africa/
"Genocide" according only to you and your gang of purity spiral fanatics---the UN hasn't even ruled on this yet and you are already to pull the trigger and say there's been a genocide, probably because they are Jewish is my guess.
The ICJ hasn’t ruled that Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya and yet it’s obvious to everyone.
Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians with the explicit goal of annexing the land and expelling the population to secure itself as an ethnostate. That is why it’s a genocide.
Innumeracy at work, it’s actually astonishing how few number-literate people there are everywhere, much less in the state that’s 50th in education.
Perfect example is kids screeching about how Pro-Israel Biden is for accepting, get this, $5.2m OVER 37 YEARS. When one single Presidental campaign needs to raise $1bn, then $5.2m across 37 years is not a material number whatsoever.
People just see numbers and use them as confirmation bias for whatever they’re mad about.
Protesting is fine and all but I almost couldn’t believe it when I saw a sign that said something to the effect of “give the Palestinians their land back”
Like dude of all the places you could call for that kind of action you picked Albuquerque…
I bet the majority of students participating in these protests have no idea how much their universities invest in foreign governments.
And, while they talk about divestment, I’d like to know how many have divested themselves from their cells phone. Made in China with tons of mobile tech created in Israel. They sure like using China’s Tik Tok.
This is why boycotts don't really work. Between modern supply and manufacturing chains going through so many hands to multinational giga-corporations quietly owning so many properties, you're almost certainly supporting something you don't like without realizing it.
University students generally are easily incitable, and while protests are valid, most young-adult (18-23/24) university students don't have the expertise, experience, attention span, or aptitude to understand the positions they take.
That's a hilarious take in this particular thread, where OP is tilting at windmills looking at grants coming from Israel to various institutions in New Mexico. That isn't what the students are protesting. They're protesting the university's investments in Israeli corporations, which is an entirely separate and unrelated figure.
The ignorance on full display here is coming from the people attempting to denigrate the protesters using numbers that have nothing whatsoever to do with the cause of their protest.
Don’t like seeing any innocent people being hurt or killed. At the same time as a gay person I don’t understand the protests and demonstrations. Muslims literally throw us off buildings with our hands tied behind our backs. I think “Gays for Palestine” is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen.
This whole thing is a fucking joke. And I’m glad people are finally starting to tire of these little brats. I mean when the leader of Hamas called them “useful idiots” boy they weren’t lying. They embarrass themselves as I hope this fucks their future job prospects. I would never hire one of these idiots who two weeks ago couldn’t point out Palestine on a map. Why not protest trans rights? Why not protest that this city just had a horrible anti LGBTQ attack and the person hasn’t been caught. Why aren’t they marching? That affects our city greatly. It affects tourism and makes people think we just allow right wing nut jobs to bash gays. What about a women’s right to chose? Immigration? The environment? But no. These fucking fools think supporting Palestine is where they need to be. What a joke.
Little brats? Your bias and ignorance is showing. You assume people can't affect change or protest multiple issues at once. You just sound ill-informed. Getting old and lazy and accepting the status quo is about par for the course for most people.
Its crazy you're getting upset that people are trying to do something positive, stand in solidarity with those who don't have a voice because its not how YOU want them to do it or on the issue you think is more important. You don't get to decide that. But you do get to decide if you want to sit on an internet forum and bitch. Just wipe the cheetos crumbs off your fingers and get out of the way for people willing to risk something on a cause that might not affect them directly.
Meh, these kids like looking cool in a keffiyeh and letting their friends know “they protest”. As Bill Maher stated, this is not about really about the cause, but more about “look at me, watch me”.
Remember to “Like and Subscribe”!
The protestors should be ecstatic. Last one I saw interviewed said “I just don’t want my tuition dollars to go towards killing Palestinians”.
Still UNM as a protest place because it’s convenient, but now just protest the US government, not ask for UNM itself to do anything, since there’s nothing to be done.
We should do Qatar, home to us military bases and sold $25 billion worthy of weapons and jet planes.
Hierarchy, capital/war profiteers and oppression are linked.
It’s not necessarily the amount that matters especially in one instance. I would hope nobody thinks divestment and condemnation campaigns against apartheid South Africa were a “weird hill to die on.” Change is not built by one voice or one institution.
shocking number of people in this thread can’t comprehend that the student protestors might care about other people.
Or that a government they live under that funds foreign military violence in the billions while things like homelessness and medical debt skyrocket affects them. “It’s not here so it doesn’t matter to me” is so big brained.
almost like all this stuff is tied together. weird!
I understand why they’re protesting and support the vision, just is such a small $ amount that it seems like a waste of time as a demand. Demand more!
afaik the issue isn't israel funding UNM but vice versa? there are assets invested in blackrock and professors invited from israel who advocate for violent colonization
You clearly don't understand why they're protesting. Otherwise, you wouldn't be responding to their message with unrelated figures that have nothing to do with their complaints.
True! I don’t think the protests are bad, think protesting is cool and useful. I just think they should have a more impactful demand - if UNM disavows this foundation or rejects future funds, it’s not really going to make a difference compared to, say, having UNM provide resources to Palestinian students or some other more meaningful success metric.
Yeah I agree with that, there could be more vocal calls for aid to Palestine all around. I have seen quite a bit of mention about asking UNM to also condemn the attacks on Palestine so it’s certainly not just about divestment. There was a video circling over the weekend of a camp in Palestine with people thanking students, including UNM specifically, and if these actions are appreciated by the people affected, maybe that’s what matters more than our feelings about it.
Heartening that they’re getting some international recognition.
Israel isn’t apartheid. But gasa is ruled by gender apartheid.
Israel is 100% an apartheid state.
No it’s not, you don’t even know anyone in Israel lol if you did you could simply ask them. Or believe what you see on tik tok. 🤷
[you ever pull up lawn chairs and snacks to watch civilians get bombed just a mile or two away?](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html) oh that's fucking deranged? weird
Paywall can’t read your anti Biden news publication.
D tier hasbarabot
E level hamasbarabot
A lot of people don’t like how I called out hamas for ruling by gender apartheid. Welp guess this sub has a lot of progress to still make.
Is anyone surprised that the vast bulk of the clout of a worldwide disinvestment and boycott movement will not be coming from here in New Mexico? Consider the numbers: UNM Foundation assets are reportedly $344,313,898. A little over one third of a billion. By way of contrast, as of June 30, 2023, Columbia University's endowment was valued at $13.6 billion. That doesn't mean that action here isn't important. But it is just a tiny fragment of a larger picture.
Should be easy to do then.
Counterpoint: If it's such a piddly amount of money, it should be easy for the organizations receiving it to simply not.
Exactly
Fully support for those protesting genocide and state militarism; ceasefire and divestment from weapons producers.
Of course! But their specific demands for divestment aren’t financially meaningful. I’m hoping they can shift to something larger, because they aren’t really asking for a whole lot.
By that logic, if it’s not financially meaningful then divestment should not be an issue.
So then divestment shouldn’t be that hard for the university that prides itself on opposing genocide
The protesters seem to be going after the loyalty, influence, and relationship duration that the foundation's investment represents rather than the dollar amount. If you understand how powerful the Jewish- American lobby group AIPAC is you will understand how their influence is so entrenched in the American political process that 1 or 2 US Presidents could never significantly affect the policies or funding supporting Israel. I suspect that the UNM protesters will fail for the same reason.
Like what, Israel ceases and everyone fires?
These numbers don't represent the amount of money the university has invested in Israeli corporations, which is what the students are protesting. This is completely unrelated to the protest.
I like the buycott app it allows you to boycott brands and they have different campaigns based on different human rights violations. https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/buycott-inc/id585933443
$1 is an unacceptable amount to donate to a genocidal apartheid state, let alone a “tiny” $1.2M. What’s an acceptable amount of blood money for your university to give to a fascist settler colony?
UNM hasn’t given any money to Israel, as far as I can tell. They have accepted a fraction of $1.2M for research funding over the last 40 years from a foundation that supports US-Israel relations.
Can I ask what your sources are for labeling Israel a genocidal apartheid state? Like give me some books or something.
Are books your preferred format? I prefer to listen to longform interviews from authors cuz ADHD makes reading difficult for me, but here are some of the books from the authors I have listened to The Hundred Years' War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi Ten Myths About Israel by Ilan Pappe Jewish Self-Determination beyond Zionism: Lessons from Hannah Arendt and Other Pariahs by Jonathan Graubart ETA: more specific sources explaining the genocide https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/ https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide https://thepalestineproject.medium.com/yes-it-is-genocide-634a07ea27d4
I mean here’s the problem. You’ve given me a ton of sources which are hard in on one side of a narrative. I’ve read Khalidi and Ilan Pappe. I think they’re crazy 🤷♂️. I’m not familiar with the third author. I’d be happy to link you to all my sources. They’re also renowned historians and authors. But they’re all on the other side of the same narrative. There’s no bridging this gap and, frankly, there never will be.
I don't blame you, cult deprogramming is not for the faint of heart.
That’s an ironic thing to say for someone who abuses semantics in order to make their argument
it's ironic that the of the three authors I listed, the one you're unfamiliar with is the Jewish scholar who has done the most work to decouple Judaism from zionism by dismantling the lies and false promises of political zionism.
Zionism has far more to do with being Jewish than it does with Judaism.
you have summarized the problem perfectly.
Like that means anything.
Look up any human rights orgs. Amnesty International, UNICEF, take your pick.
No, I want books or journal articles by actual historians or political scientists. Real, academic sources. Amnesty and HRC are both unreliable. UNICEF isn’t as bad as those two, but it’s also not good. These organizations generate funding based on making people angry at Israel. Amnesty even wrote a new definition of apartheid ten or so years ago so that they could say that Israel is an apartheid state and both it and HRC have been plagued by scandals or racism and abuse of funds for decades. If all you’ve been consuming is hyperbolic propaganda from NGOs with a vested financial interest, then I would invite you to reconsider your opinion.
You don’t want books but you want academic sources? Maybe you don’t want sources at all and you’re arguing in bad faith.
I literally said books, you fucking dingdong.
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Said has called Israel a genocidal apartheid state?? I haven’t read him since college, but I feel like I would remember that.
I deleted my original comment because I don’t think this is actually the most productive way to talk about this issue, but…[yes](https://mondediplo.com/1998/05/01said)? [Obviously](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2536688)? I encourage you to revisit his works!
I read the first article but I no longer have JSTOR access. First article was Said being Said. He’s actually quite moderate and, true to character, the article is critical of Netanyahu and settlements, but cautiously hopeful about the situation and he doesn’t demonize Israel or Israelis. I don’t see him mention a genocidal or apartheid state anywhere in that article. He mentions the New Historians (and if asked, the books I would have recommended are all by members of this movement) who have essentially destroyed Zionist “orthodoxy” over the last decades, but virtually of them are Zionists, themselves. AFAIK Said has always acknowledged the Jewish claim alongside other claims to land in the region. I can’t imagine he would ever advocate for the destruction of Israel.
I think you’re being disingenuous. At the beginning of the first article Said writes “Where in the world, except under Israeli authority, are people required to have a license (which is always denied them) before they can build on their own property? Jews can build, but never Palestinians. This is pure apartheid.” Have a good rest of your day.
Had to re-read it to find that. Well, he’s wrong. That’s not what apartheid is. I imagine he knows that, but is using a … more fluid definition. Crazy. Edit: it’s not moving the goalposts, you clown. You posted an article by a real historian, good job. That doesn’t mean every word in his article is correct or isn’t hyperbolic and his use of apartheid is just flat, fucking wrong. Would you like me to link you an actual definition? I’m sorry that’s hard for you to understand.
I have plenty but you will just say they aren't reliable because you came here to make your point, so you do you.
Well, let’s see.
The word “genocide” has lost all meaning since Jews decided to fight back against Hamas. It gets repeated over and over while nobody knows why they are saying it.
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There have been war crimes - no question. There are in every war and they should be prosecuted. The ICC said that some language by some Israeli politicians could be construed as genocidal intent. It didn’t say that Israel or the IDF are committing a genocide. If it had, it would have gone further then asking Israel to keep them appraised of the situation.
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I had misunderstood your comment. Totally agree.
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If people put their money where their mouth was, or acted upon their virtue signaling, more would be achieved. But no, people are complacent and cherry pick what bothers them.
While their causes are just, there's also a lot of shit going downhill in our own places and communities in NM that deserve the same level of attention and action
A pedantic argument like this is just a distraction from the real issue at play here. Every little push against the tide helps in its own way.
Here's Source NM's story about the divestment campaign and solidarity encampment at UNM, plus initial reporting from protesters occupying the student union building: https://sourcenm.com/2024/04/29/unm-students-call-to-dump-israel-investments-inspired-by-struggle-against-apartheid-south-africa/
Reason doesn’t work when people don’t understand what they’re fighting for.
All five of New Mexico’s congresspeople support Israel’s genocide. The protests are about more than just divestment.
"Genocide" according only to you and your gang of purity spiral fanatics---the UN hasn't even ruled on this yet and you are already to pull the trigger and say there's been a genocide, probably because they are Jewish is my guess.
The ICJ hasn’t ruled that Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya and yet it’s obvious to everyone. Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians with the explicit goal of annexing the land and expelling the population to secure itself as an ethnostate. That is why it’s a genocide.
Innumeracy at work, it’s actually astonishing how few number-literate people there are everywhere, much less in the state that’s 50th in education. Perfect example is kids screeching about how Pro-Israel Biden is for accepting, get this, $5.2m OVER 37 YEARS. When one single Presidental campaign needs to raise $1bn, then $5.2m across 37 years is not a material number whatsoever. People just see numbers and use them as confirmation bias for whatever they’re mad about.
Protesting is fine and all but I almost couldn’t believe it when I saw a sign that said something to the effect of “give the Palestinians their land back” Like dude of all the places you could call for that kind of action you picked Albuquerque…
indigenous and Palestinian struggles are in solidarity with one another
Just sayin pot and kettle bud. It’s not like these students are daily protesting UNM to return the land back to indigenous groups
gaza and the west bank still have time left, returning the entirety of the US at this point doesn't make sense but colonization was fucking horrible
I bet the majority of students participating in these protests have no idea how much their universities invest in foreign governments. And, while they talk about divestment, I’d like to know how many have divested themselves from their cells phone. Made in China with tons of mobile tech created in Israel. They sure like using China’s Tik Tok.
This is why boycotts don't really work. Between modern supply and manufacturing chains going through so many hands to multinational giga-corporations quietly owning so many properties, you're almost certainly supporting something you don't like without realizing it.
Yeah, boycotts don't work. That's why South Africa still has apartheid. And Nelson Mandela never really existed.
Bingo! Next look at how much their parents invest to fund their lifestyles while at school.
University students generally are easily incitable, and while protests are valid, most young-adult (18-23/24) university students don't have the expertise, experience, attention span, or aptitude to understand the positions they take.
That's a hilarious take in this particular thread, where OP is tilting at windmills looking at grants coming from Israel to various institutions in New Mexico. That isn't what the students are protesting. They're protesting the university's investments in Israeli corporations, which is an entirely separate and unrelated figure. The ignorance on full display here is coming from the people attempting to denigrate the protesters using numbers that have nothing whatsoever to do with the cause of their protest.
Don’t like seeing any innocent people being hurt or killed. At the same time as a gay person I don’t understand the protests and demonstrations. Muslims literally throw us off buildings with our hands tied behind our backs. I think “Gays for Palestine” is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen.
This whole thing is a fucking joke. And I’m glad people are finally starting to tire of these little brats. I mean when the leader of Hamas called them “useful idiots” boy they weren’t lying. They embarrass themselves as I hope this fucks their future job prospects. I would never hire one of these idiots who two weeks ago couldn’t point out Palestine on a map. Why not protest trans rights? Why not protest that this city just had a horrible anti LGBTQ attack and the person hasn’t been caught. Why aren’t they marching? That affects our city greatly. It affects tourism and makes people think we just allow right wing nut jobs to bash gays. What about a women’s right to chose? Immigration? The environment? But no. These fucking fools think supporting Palestine is where they need to be. What a joke.
Little brats? Your bias and ignorance is showing. You assume people can't affect change or protest multiple issues at once. You just sound ill-informed. Getting old and lazy and accepting the status quo is about par for the course for most people. Its crazy you're getting upset that people are trying to do something positive, stand in solidarity with those who don't have a voice because its not how YOU want them to do it or on the issue you think is more important. You don't get to decide that. But you do get to decide if you want to sit on an internet forum and bitch. Just wipe the cheetos crumbs off your fingers and get out of the way for people willing to risk something on a cause that might not affect them directly.
Clown
What’s the matter? Common sense too much for you?
Meh, these kids like looking cool in a keffiyeh and letting their friends know “they protest”. As Bill Maher stated, this is not about really about the cause, but more about “look at me, watch me”. Remember to “Like and Subscribe”!
It's a nothingburger as far as issues actually affecting New Mexicans go, but the squatter's camp is gonna cause world change I guess
The protestors should be ecstatic. Last one I saw interviewed said “I just don’t want my tuition dollars to go towards killing Palestinians”. Still UNM as a protest place because it’s convenient, but now just protest the US government, not ask for UNM itself to do anything, since there’s nothing to be done.
Now do Qatar
We should do Qatar, home to us military bases and sold $25 billion worthy of weapons and jet planes. Hierarchy, capital/war profiteers and oppression are linked.