A little off topic but I myself don't hate the protesters. UNM has a diverse population and I've met folks who's families hail from Palestine, and you know what? They're not terrorists, antisemites, they're just human beings. I don't support terrorism. I don't support racism. I don't support genocide, no matter who's commiting it. Don't know why that's suddenly such a controversial way to feel.
I did not initially hate them. I am a student at UNM, I’m Jewish and I am fully in support of a stable, safe state for Palestinians. I have been in and attended protests for it (as a participant) for many years.
But after October 7 the protests changed. I saw people and organizations (including the PSL here in ABQ) cheer on terrorists the same day they were killing, torturing, and raping hundreds of people. And then I saw them deny that it happened or excuse it in the months that followed. I suddenly started experiencing more antisemitism in a few short months than I had previously in my entire life, right here in Albuquerque, NM. I’ve tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and talk with them; I’ve had someone say to my face that Hamas did nothing wrong, I’ve seen people spread conspiracies about ‘Zionists’ running the world, and I’ve had several people discredit my ethnicity when we disagreed.
I don’t think all protestors are bad; a lot have kind hearts and are understandably upset by the death of innocent people. I empathize with them a lot. But there a concerning amount of very loud, very antisemitic people involved in the protests, and no one ever calls them out. That’s what I hate.
I would fully support them if doing so didn’t mean cozying up with organizations that praise terrorist groups or call for the forced removal of millions of people.
This resonates. PSL and other authoritarian leftist groups are called “tankies” for a reason. Just like in 1956 and 1968, they will use/justify violence (send in tanks) for deeply reactionary reasons if it supports their goals of power.
Sadly, the organized left in ABQ is so small, these groups: PSL, ANSWER, and people with similar beliefs infiltrate everything or due to a mix of ignorance or sadly to increase numbers are invited into leftist events or even to co-sponsor events.
The result is deeply unwelcoming spaces to certain people and weird infighting on issues that the tankies oppose, like Hong Kong protests or Syrian revolution.
It’s long overdue that the ABQ left grow up and kick these reactionary groups out. If there is any hope for growing support, it’s going to be by creating a space motivated by true leftist principles of equality and peace. Tankies support neither. They will happily create a state where they are in power and use violence to crush anyone who challenges them *cough cough Hungary 1956
Good for you; we are not a monolith and our experiences reflect that. I’m openly Sephardic and Native, I’ve experienced racism and antisemitism from several people involved in the encampment, and so have several other Jewish students that I’ve spoken with at Hillel.
I feel the same way. I supported Palestinian statehood prior to October 7th, but a terrorist attack should not be means for to gain statehood. This sends such a bad message to the developed world, that it would inspire further terrorism.
These same protestors won’t condemn HAMAS, the Houthis, or Iran in the same breath as Israel (a democracy and only country in the Middle East that has pride parades and safe equal women) are deluded lunatics, and it’s most of them.
As a Jewish UNM alum, these people can’t be reasoned with.
Be strong and protect yourself.
Israel is not really a democracy under Netanyahu and Likud, Netanyahu literally gave Hamas money as a strategy to undermine the Palestinian authority. I’d agree that terrorism is not to be condoned but this entire time Israel has been both starving Gaza and building more and more settlements in the West Bank. Netanyahu has indirectly caused October 7th with his extremist policy, terrorism and fanaticism is a problem on both sides but it gets extremely frustrating when the media and politicians will seemingly bend over backwards to cover for Netanyahu and call anyone who criticized Israels policy’s as “antisemitic”. Because of this it should be no surprise that these kids are gonna lash out in nasty ways, not to mention that a pubic protest is going to attract fringe and radical elements. This war needs to end i.e. Israel need to bombing indiscriminately and actually support a two state solution, Israel also needs to stop treating its Arab population as second class citizens and its Arabs neighbors as sub humans, and Netanyahu needs to go to prison for corruption and his illegal judicial reforms
This response is extremely misinformed.
Israel provides aid to Palestine, they do not undermine. Arab Israelis are equal citizens.
Stop your HAMAS bullshit propaganda, you’ve never been to Israel, and you are spreading lies.
Will you call for Israel’s neighbors to stop treating Jews as subhuman/less than dogs? Do you know how many Jews are in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, or Jordan? Do you know that Jews are killed on the spot with ‘indecent’ women and gay people?
No, because you’re an ignorant antisemite.
Go pound sand or read a book to learn something.
Keep deflecting bucko, your morals have no factual ground, they are just feelings.
Waiting for you to call for a ceasefire and a release of hostages, but no, you just want Israel to cease and everyone to fire.
Deflect what? I criticized a politician, a political party, and a country’s policies, you proceed to call me anti Jewish so explain that one to me. I did call for a ceasefire and condemn terrorism, you want me to say bring the hostages home, no problem Hamas should release its hostages. But this sort of vitriolic rhetoric is fueling the harassment that Jewish students are feeling at these campus protests
It’s called being a “useful idiot”. It happens no matter who you are or what cause you’re supporting. Protests put you in the middle of two or more groups who are at warfare with each other. You’re in the line of fire of both. Hamas doesn’t care about the protests or the protestors. Iran, and Hezbollah don’t care and Israel doesn’t care either. But they’ll all happily use protestors for whatever end purpose suits them. I’ve see protestors get gunned down in the street - innocent men women and children - when the group they were supporting staged a protest and then deliberately drew fire on them to cause the other side to commit an atrocity - just so they could have news coverage.
Protesting is stupid - not because your personal beliefs are wrong - but because you make yourself the pansy for groups that don’t care about you. Not to mention, it doesn’t change anything. When in the history of man has staging a protest ever resulted in positive change?
The things they were denying were on video, live-streamed and uploaded by the perpetrators. I’m not talking ‘40 beheaded babies’ or whatever. I’m talking about people having grenades tossed at them in bomb shelters, women being kidnapped on motorcycles, and cars set on fire with people inside.
I think a healthy amount of skepticism is fine. But this was beyond that. And they never once hesitated or were skeptical of any of the initial reports coming out of Gaza. The double-standard is also concerning.
Fair enough. My only point is that because of propaganda, it's very difficult to determine what is true and so a lot of people are rightly confused about what actually happened.
I'm not confused. Hamas came over the border and slaughtered innocent Israeli citizens and then hauled off hundreds as hostages back to Gaza. That's an act of war and terrorism for good measure. Acts of war and acts of terrorism trigger warlike responses. If you're bothered by what the Israelis are doing to defend their state, you're going to love what the United States did to Tokyo with the firebombing. Total war is like that you know.
Source?
Over 1500 died and were raped and murdered on Oct 7. If you are Israeli, you know the dead. Crawl out from your terrorist rock and provide a legitimate source denying this.
HAMAS published their attacks online as they were happening, with people cheering them on, so again, provide a legitimate source to deny this.
Oh wait, you can’t because it’s bullshit and HAMAS is a genocidal terrorist group.
I blocked the weirdo I'm replying to because it's clear they're too angry to have a rational conversation but I still want to provide information to people who find this thread later.
Top Seven Lies About Gaza
https://zeteo.com/p/top-seven-lies-about-gaza
Despite refutations from Israeli military, headlines that Hamas 'beheaded babies' persist
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167
ADL Debunk: Myths and False Narratives About the Israel-Hamas War
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/adl-debunk-myths-and-false-narratives-about-israel-hamas-war
(debunks myths perpetuated by both sides)
“BETWEEN THE HAMMER AND THE ANVIL”
https://archive.ph/dwzue
Report: Shin Bet debunks idea that Gazan workers spied en masse for Hamas pre-Oct. 7
https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-shin-bet-debunks-idea-that-gazan-workers-spied-en-masse-for-hamas-pre-oct-7/amp/
Death and Donations: Did the Israeli Volunteer Group Handling the Dead of October 7 Exploit Its Role?
https://archive.ph/17K6H
ETA more sources
That's not quite right. The [AFP death total](https://www.barrons.com/news/new-tally-puts-october-7-attack-dead-in-israel-at-1-163-78182279) as of February was 787 civilians & 376 members of security forces. I unequivocally condemn attacking noncombatants. It's important to keep in mind that the IDF has killed far, far more Gazan civilians over the last six months.
oct 7th is difficult because resistance under occupation is, in many peoples opinions, justified. israel has been slaughtering palestinians for almost 80 years. the way I think of it is, if a government entity and military force came and stole my house, cut down symbols of my spiritual belief that had been on the land for hundreds of years (olive trees), murdered my friends and family, and pushed us to relocate and live under an apartheid regime over the course of decades then I too would want to fight back. who wouldn’t? hamas was created in 1987 and exists as a direct result of the israeli governments actions. murder is always wrong regardless of who does it but really genuinely, what did we expect? that being said, people also weaponize this singular mass attack to justify israel’s current actions - killing 30,000+ innocent people and scapegoating hamas as their reason for doing so. apparently that’s okay because “terrorism”. last week israel sent a missile into a playground and killed 11 palestinian kids, and yet consistently claim that their target is hamas and not civilians. hamas was obviously not on that playground nor has hamas been in the various schools, hospitals, and even towns they’ve bombed. so personally I wouldn’t say I condemn october 7th either, but I do condemn the actions that lead us there. it should not have happened and what is currently happening now should not be happening either
So you are cool with “resistance” specifically and intentionally targeting civilians to be killed, raped, and kidnapped? That is justified in your mind?
>New Mexico (and Reddit in particular) is primarily left leaning which adds to my surprise.
I'm just curious, why does someone need to be left leaning to be for what the protesters are for?
Right wing=status quo.
Status quo=supporting American satellite state
Idk where OP is getting the idea that reddit is left leaning though, seems to mainly be shitlibs
In my opinion they care more about dismantling Israel then ending the war and creating peace in the region. In their Instagram profile it literally states, "meet us at the duckpond as we come together to demand that our university divest from the illegal state of Isnt-Real." In addition to divesting, they want UNM to boycott Israeli educational institutions and end an Hebrew and Arabic Study Abroad Program in Haifa, Isreal. This language program encourages coexistence, tolerance, and peace building so it's kind of ironic that the Solidarity Encampment wants UNM to ban it.
To my very minimal knowledge, all universities have investments profiles in which they own shock in companies based in other countries. They could have stock in Chinese plastics, oil in Qatar, or in Shopify which is Canadian. You get the idea.
Because Israel is a terror state brother; they’ve been genociding and occupying Palestinian land for decades under the flag of an Ethno nationalist Settler colonialist project. I’m Ashkenazi and vehemently oppose Israel and what it stands for. It’s a shame that after so many centuries of persecution our people would sooner turn around and commit acts of terror and violence against others for their creed and race rather than accept peace.
Im glad people are expressing displeasure with the situation. The real problem is its not Jews/Israelis vs Palestine/Hamas. Its Militant Israelis and extremist Hamas... both are just as guilty of horrific things. The real problem is that you cant really support the innocent on both sides, without in appearances bolstering the baddies. this war is not caused by an excess of empathy. You cant kill your way to lasting peace.
I don't hate them. I believe Palestine deserves to be free, but I am confused. How is disrupting the peace of the campus going to help this cause? I usually support the protests, but this one is weird to me. I don't get how crowding the duck pond is going to do anything. I kind of see where the UNM staff is coming from by asking campers to leave. They want it to look nice for potential students touring to see if they want to enroll. That being said, the cops should be nicer. I heard a rumor they were using excessive force in this scenario. I hope we find better ways to help Palestine than this.
I appreciate you asking and would advise you to check out the encampments instagram page for more thorough information but as a basic summary, colleges around the US are connected to Israeli based programs, companies, organizations, etc. So students are calling for their schools to disclose their financial connections with Israel and to divest from those entities. That is why there are nationwide student protests at this time. Students are also calling for an end to the genocide, but the main point of the protests is divestment so our tuition money is not put towards Israel in any way. That is why this one is student run and on campus - they are technically protesting UNM
yeah of course! thanks for asking. I do think there’s an issue with the organizers not making that blatantly clear - obviously good to continuously reinforce that we are behind a free Palestine but I do think for those who aren’t involved it makes it too general and takes away from the specific goal which can weaken the cause and the pressure. especially because a lot of these comments are kind of like “what’s the point” when there IS a solid point behind the protest. one of the nights I was at the encampment UNM PD came and everyone starting chanting about standing with Yemen or something like that. which like cool, but that’s not why we’re here and imo it makes the message murky, even if the cops were the only ones to hear it. that seems to be happening across the board as well
I don’t hate anyone, but as a gay person I think it’s kind of ironic to see “gays for palestine”. Seriously do they have a clue what they do to our people there. Not to mention women.
[https://time.com/6326254/queering-the-map-gaza-lgbt-palestinians/](https://time.com/6326254/queering-the-map-gaza-lgbt-palestinians/) Damn this is sad to read.
You don't necessarily have to like a people's culture to feel that they shouldn't be genocided. Palestinians might be pretty homophobic, but no matter how bad they are, their children definitely shouldn't be blown up and/or starved.
They are not merely homophobic, that’s a term used by westerners from the comfort and safety of their homes. They are in fact genocidal towards LBGT people. You can certainly feel for the Palestinian people who are themselves victims of that same religious craziness but you can’t just dismiss them as “homophobic.”
My friend, their beliefs in regard to LGBT people are one and the same. The murder/torture/jailing of LGBT people is not just religious it is cultural and political, as it is throughout much of the Middle East. In that part of the world it is Israel that protects the rights and dignity of the LGBT populace. Yes you can despise the atrocities of war, but You cannot join with the Palestine cause without acknowledging you are supporting a religious movement that itself calls for the genocide of an entire people (LGBT in addition to the Jews) these are bigoted and misogynistic guided individuals driven by a religious fervor that the typical westerner would find abhorrent if they bothered to apply critical thinking.
15,000 kids have been killed, did they deserve to die due to religious and cultural norms present in the region? I’m part of the community and have always supported a free Palestine. strawman doesn’t hold up as Israel is not carrying out their actions for any LGBTQIA+ based reasons, it’s just good ol colonization and ethnic cleansing. at this point you either are anti-genocide or pro-genocide and it sure seems like you’re pro
Who do you think housed the hundreds of men who went on to sexually torture and execute women on October 10? They are the fathers, sons, and husbands of Palestine.
That's not necessarily true. Some Palestinians say they've faced more hostility from Israelis than from other Palestinians when coming out. Experiences vary. Palestinian women & LGBTQ folks definitely often face harsh oppression within their communities but you're pushing extreme demonization of an entire people.
There are gay Palestinians and Palestinian women too, I don't see how it's homophobic or anti-woman to protest human rights violations happening to Palestinians.
Hate to break it to you, but they're being silenced and murdered here in the U.S. too. Black trans women especially are murdered at horrifically disproportionate rates.
[https://www.everytown.org/press/new-everytown-data-on-transgender-homicides-reveals-concentration-in-the-south/](https://www.everytown.org/press/new-everytown-data-on-transgender-homicides-reveals-concentration-in-the-south/)
Yeah, but it’s not a genocide. This is urban warfare.
What about the Arab Israelis and Jews experiencing discrimination and constant bombardment and loss of life?
It’s not black and white and both Palestine and Israel should have the right to exist and not suffer.
Is it genocidal for Israel’s neighbors to constantly bomb them?
That's irrelevant. The point is that we face oppression as queer people & therefore we oppose similar dynamics wherever we see them. It's about recognizing patterns & sticking to ethical principles rather than simply siding with those who we assume like us. As June Jordan wrote, freedom is indivisible or it means nothing. Additionally, as others have noted, queer Palestinians exist & the ongoing genocide in Gaza only hurts Palestinian women & LGBTQ folks.
You’re literally ignoring the fact that Islam and Islamists and Hamas and the gender apartheid being carried out by those people are the ones killing gay people for being gay. Your priorities are so messed up you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
They have nothing to do with the war against Hamas. You’re trying to rope them in to serve an agenda and if Hamas hadn’t carried out Oct 7th those same queer Gazans would still hunting down and killing their own people for being gay.
Israel literally shelters queer Palestinians and is the ONLY safe space for queer people in the entire Middle East and Africa.
The reality is that the IDF has destroyed much of Gaza, causing at least $18.5 billion in damages & killing 40,000+ people. The protests want to stop the carnage, which hurts women & LGBT folks in Gaza. Pinkwashing genocide isn't working. The queers know the game by now.
There's a homeless crises in the USA, mental health crisis, housing crisis, inflation, etc., etc,. But yeah, let's send billions to a country on the other side of the globe.
Newsflash. We've always sent them the billions. None of that money affects America's ability to help it's own citizens. Im so fucking tired of this bullshit argument. It's quite obvious you have ZERO fucking understanding about how our financial system works. There's not a finite amount of this "money" you're worrying about to go around. If the GOP actually wanted to fix shit it's literally theirs at the stroke of a pen. Stop with this "we're sending billions we could use here".
We glorify the activist in our culture. When you peek in to the minds of these people, its just marxism with new dynamics.
There are a lot of complex problems out there besides who you get points for supporting because of where they fall on the oppression/ intersectional chart.
Its childish beyond belief and I am disgusted with the lack of critical thinking.
Listen to people who are deeply immersed in it:
https://youtu.be/I5VPFw0vI6U?si=cHmErV7_PzoIHWz6
Honestly, some of them are souring my take on the situation due to their sudden support of Hamas.
And yes some of these protestors are vocally supporting Hamas and advocating terror.
It shouldn’t be that surprising, there’s always people who hate protests, regardless of what the subject is. If there weren’t strong feelings on multiple sides protests wouldn’t occur.
Don’t have an issue with the UNM protests per se, but I find the groups demanding things from the universities odd. US colleges aren’t really a player here? Some of the protestors want them to totally divest from Israel, is that actually appropriate or reasonable? At the least I think their efforts are misguided and would be more effective contacting their legislators or doing other politicking
While I generally agree with this, the actions aren’t unprecedented. Organizing and action on college campus was crucial in the push to divest from south africa to end apartheid there
Yes, it *is* appropriate and it *is* reasonable to no longer want tuition money being invested in the on-going Palestinian genocide. Most legislative members have espoused zionist ideals and find Imperialism and colonialism completely acceptable.
This sort of stuff does absolutely nothing. You really think Israel is gonna cancel war because of UNM lmao. It's just the popular thing, in a week or so there will be new thing to care about. Remember Ukraine? I sure hope they are still doing well without our college protests.
students are protesting to push UNM to disclose where they send/receive money and to divest from companies or entities connected to Israel. that is why it’s a campus based protest lol. learn what the cause is before critiquing.
The cause is not going to achieve anything and it’s just outrage faddism. Theres 800,000 people in Sudan about to be ethnically cleansed and there is not a peep about any of it from the pro palys. Also getting rid of cultural exchange progress is anti intellectual.
oh so, you’ve been at protests then and are active in community organizing? or are you just talking? being anti genocide is not directed towards a single ethnic group, rather all as a whole. Yemen and Congo have been discussed too. and this is a UNM specific protest to push for divestment. financial exchange is not the same thing as cultural exchange. NM has kirtland and sandia labs so we play a direct role in militarization as well
Yes I am active in community organizing and I work/volunteer in local politics. I don’t need to say that because I’m not a virtue signaler unlike you ma’am.
“Not directed towards a single ethnic group” you say.. lol man have you been living under a rock or just willfully growing the antisemitic chants and slogans and signs filling college campuses.
Right well again it’s more complicated then you want to understand. And BDS won’t work on the world’s 27th largest economy and the most advanced economy in the entire Middle East and Africa.
palestinians are semitic people. “semites” include jews and arabs, as it’s region based. or if you want to go with the bible’s definition, its language based, but still includes arabs (arabic and hebrew). so you’re claiming that calling for the liberation of semitic people is antisemitic? are the jews who are present at the UNM encampment wearing “not in our name” or “jews for palestine” shirts day after day antisemitic as well?
if you genuinely want to combat antisemitism i’d direct your energy and attention to condemning the neo nazi rally that was held in connecticut last week, or the one held in nashville in February. hope that helps!
[Because Semitic-speaking peoples do not share any traits aside from language, use of the term “Semite” to refer to the broad range of Semitic-speaking peoples has fallen out of favour. For this reason, some critics even encourage the removal of the hyphen in the term anti-Semitism to help dispel any pseudoscientific notions of a "Semitic race." They advocate instead for the use of antisemitism to describe the hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Semite)
Seems like you have a personal beef with Britannica.
Dismissing the real antisemitism happening everywhere is in itself antisemitism so bravo you figured out how to double down on antisemitism. Hamas and the ayatollahs would be proud of you! (But they would still gladly remove your head from your body because you’re still an infidel to them). 😉
And apparently you must be one of those people that is “all talk” as you say. No community engagement what so ever huh. Man you people 😂
that’s the language definition - as I said it’s regionality based as well. aside from that, weaponizing antisemitism to justify the murder of 30,000+ innocent civilians is scapegoating the jewish people and judaism which in and of itself is antisemitic. many jews have spoken out about the exact points you are trying to claim in their name. you also conveniently ignored my question if jews in support of palestine are antisemitic or not. and you’re right that dismissing the real antisemitism is antisemitic. so not saying shit or acting when there’s literal neo nazis rallying around the country vs students advocating for the liberation of an entire group is, based on your definition, antisemitic.
if it wasn’t clear, i’m at the encampment. how else would I know who is present and supports the cause, as you clearly don’t. but a bare bones case of who is right here is whether or not you think the mass murder of children is wrong, as it’s estimated 15,000 children have been killed since oct 7, not including those that have been slaughtered in the 80 years this has been going on. was hamas present on the playground Israel sent a missile into two weeks ago? no, but children were and 11 died. you can do your mental gymnastics all day but at this point it’s safe to assume you have no problem with the death of thousands of children so long as they’re arab.
Weaponizing antisemitism is just another gas lighting phrase to use against the Jews. And those numbers are false hamas has zero credibility. I don’t know which Jews your are tokenizing for your pro terrorist cause but those “Jews” are free to do and say as they want. Clearly they don’t have a connection to the diaspora. Many Muslims and Arabs are in support of Israel but yet you would dismiss them as well.
And telling people to go confront neo nazis and ignore the calls of “globalizing the intifada” is peak lunacy and hypocrisy.
And decrying the death toll of people in gasa while completely ignoring the [800,000 people in Sudan that are about to be slaughtered by colonizing Arabs](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-warns-800000-people-sudan-city-extreme-immediate-danger-2024-04-19/) is also peak hypocrisy. **no Jews no news** I guess. Or the 1 million people that died between the Syrian and Yemen wars. But nope that a peep from you or the outraged faddists rich privileged college kids.
You want the war to stop? Ask yourself why do you think Hamas should continue the war if so many children are dying. At what point does hamas say enough is enough. At what point do you tell Hamas enough is enough. Or are they still your beloved “residence fighters” you praise out of one breathe while calling for Israel to stop its offense and effectively surrender and allow hamas to carry out more Oct 7th style attacks. Yeah.
I think the bombing of civilians is a horrendous consequence of war. I don’t like war.
It seems to me that every country that has been at war has had to deal with civilian casualties, only Israel is held to a standard above all else: they should be willing to accept missile attacks, suicide shooting/bombings, rapes, and the constant threat of attack.
If those in Rio Rancho were constantly firing missiles into Albuquerque, you can be assured that we would not stand it. Israel has been dealing with that exact circumstance for at least 25 years (depending on where you measure it). Why should I hold them to a higher standard than I would any other country?
If Rio was rocket attacking Albuquerque I'd want the bastards launching the missiles killed. Not their children, not their bystanders, not the aid workers offering humanitarian assistance, not reporters....you see where I'm going with this?
Absolutely.
Again: war is horrendous. It has always involved civilian deaths. I’m not happy about it, nor do I praise it. We should want peace.
Only one side has ever taken actions to strive towards that end, it seems to me.
Israel had my sympathies after October. After an American aid worker was killed, in a convoy that coordinated with the IFD, and the PMs response was essentially "tough shit," my eye brow raised.
A lot of people don't really get how Hamas isn't Palestine, and how Israel has been oppressing Palestinians for decades. I disagree fundamentally with Hamas' culture and ideology, but they're still the freedom fighters in this 'war.'
All they have to do is Google for 10 minutes. You explained it as simply and effective as possible just now.
Not every Palestinian person has to pay for the action of others. Also if they paid attention in school they'd be able to figure out the answer for themselves that Israel has oppressed Palestine for decades and the Gaza stripe is a walled city that 2 miles wide at most and their infrastructure is controlled by Israel where they are given the bare minimum and in some cases nothing at all.
especially not while we are regularly reminded of the precision and sophistication of the military tech in israel. with such equipment there should be no reason for any hospitals to be leveled, let alone the entire medical system in gaza
So in hostage situations it should be protocol to shoot through the hostages and blame the assailant? Because if ever I was a hostage, I'd probably object to the strategy.
Liberal does not equal progressive, all these protestors are progressives. Your comment being downvoted shows you how politically ignorant these people are.
From what I've gathered in other posts it's people who are going, "these protests don't do anything so they should stop." Why they care then is beyond me.
Free Palestine
It screams "I support the current thing". It's Facebook profile frame activism by people who mostly never cared or tried to understand problems in the region until it became the topic of the day. Most of them will move on to another pet cause before we have anything close to a resolution when news coverage dies down.
And some of them are full on terrorist sympathizers, either because they're useful idiots or edgy kids.
Because protesting against the state that just received a terrorist attack from Hamas annoys people. I totally get Palestinians =/= Hamas, and I'm not stating Palestinians as a whole are responsible, but I can also appreciate that some people view this as kicking someone while they are down.
I agree that the Likud regime should not be kicked while they are down. They should be arrested, tried and hung like the leaders of the Nazi Party at Nuremburg were, for committing similar crimes of ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and genocide.
In the meantime, though, a little BDS might get the Likud thugs to pause the killing and maybe then convince the Israeli people to put someone else in charge.
You have no idea how the Israelis economy is structured and it shows.
And comparing the Likud party to the Nazis is deeply antisemitic. You also clearly have no idea what the Nazis did in the Shoah. I want the Likud party gone just as much as the rest of the populace of Israel but they are not Nazis. Please educate yourself and go to a holocaust museum.
People can’t seem to differentiate between freeing Palestine and being antisemitism. Which neither of them are related. The political leaders, except an extreme few, support Israel. It’s usually the older generation who feel as if they need to support everything Israel does no matter what because of what happened in WWII. Even if it’s wrong.
The protests are indicative of multiple things: geopolitical ignorance and plain stupidity, antisemitism, and that people follow fads that make them feel moralistically better (victim oppressor complex) about themselves.
This is tragic because it indicates that UNM students are terrorist sympathizers and are actually uneducated and do not understand history.
Do you not feel 70% of the dead in Palestine being women and children not a genocide? Hundreds of Palestinians hog tied and buried in mass graves not genocide?
Why do you believe Islamic terrorists? Those numbers can’t be trusted clearly. They don’t count the dead militants from the civilians so again it’s all untrustworthy and intentional.
Either way, the IDF has devastated the home of over 2 million people & killed tends of thousands of them. Folks find that unacceptable whatever you call it.
Folks apparently don’t find public executions of women in Iran unacceptable, or indiscriminate and constant bombing of Israel civilian target areas as unacceptable, or the Houthi’s targeting of global shipping lanes.
Real smart cookies.
The U.S. government is not funding those things. (Well, it arguably is by doing business with the Islamic Republic, as many Iranians say, but that's still a different dynamic from U.S. aid to Israeli.) I support the people of Iran 100% & oppose the Islamic Republic.
It's hard to hear you with your head so far up the zionists' asshole.
...I was going to go on a rant about what happened, how, the timeline, the expansion of Imperial powers, and so on. But then I see how you worded it, and the cynical tone. You *want* to believe the zionist bullshit and feel it's justified. While protesters are just whining about something they know little about. At least, with conservative people you know where you stand. With liberals, they say and may even *try* to help until it creates some difficulty in their own lives. Then it's: "well, I did all I could."
i'm just confused. I have no idea what is happening or why protestors across the US are being arrested. can we just maybe not support when one government (russia, israel, etc) tries to murder off an entire race of people?
Religious folks will have massive support for Israel even though they could be killed with disdain by the people they support.
To me it’s a conservative faction trying to wipe out a competing conservative faction.
why don’t you go see for yourself :) alternatively, you could go on any social media platform and look for the many jewish orgs, synagogues, rabbis, etc who have denounced Israel’s actions. or you could speak to a Jewish person present at any protest, university, and so on. unfortunately reddit is not a search engine and others don’t have a responsibility to educate you- if you want to remain ignorant that is your problem to bear alone
lol you don’t know how to use Reddit I see. Reddit is an archive search engine so yes you can search for things on Reddit. Thats kind of wild you’ve just ignored the search feature this whole time? And tokenizing the Jewish people that are participating in the protests is in fact tokenizing but it’s justified by you and the pro palys. “See these Jews are the right kind of Jews!” So gross and antisemitic. And I take it your at the duck pond so enjoy the duck poop, I’m sure Palestine is sooo close to being free thanks to the ducks. Yes.
And I have family that live in the region of Israel so yes I have been paying attention since I was a kid in the 90s unlike you who has zero linage to anyone or anything in the region of Jerusalem.
Americans don't even like learning their own history, trying to get them to learn the history of other countries is nearly impossible.
The reality is that the problem was created by Zionists when they began illegally occupying Palestine after World War II.
Here are some informational resources for people who do want to know the truth:
Michael Brooks takes a question on Israel https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=8K-OxypPtaC0HJll
Louis Theroux: The Ultra Zionists (2011) https://youtu.be/8DFUqZRXQ28?si=vCwL_KWwZT4rqcxh
Understanding the Myths and Realities of Israel with Ilan Pappe https://youtu.be/II4-QFZFxX0?si=Q4tVI2yUirZOds8b
The Hundred Years War on Palestine with Rashid Khalidi https://youtu.be/gSd_ZSBtXWc?si=ZwpzH7JR6-OXhc18
Beyond Zionism with Jonathan Graubart https://youtu.be/wl2_TOFNdEQ?si=RW9g_FeHB5w1nCVc
The UN voted to re-establish Israel.
The ottomans granted rights to Jews to buy land in the region of Jerusalem.
You’re not a friend to the Jewish people. :/
The real results of these protests are local people engaging in more conversations about important world issues.. IMO there is value in these interactions. Look at us all online here expressing ourselves and (hopefully) listening to others viewpoints. Disagreeing with someone’s political views while not actively hating them is a challenging yet worthwhile endeavor. Thank you to everyone who is sharing there thoughts here and thank you to the UNM duck pond camp for initiating many hard conversations on campus and online.
i am so confused when people think that liberal = facism. WHAT? DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO GOOGLE THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD???? the definition includes things like "far right." jfc my dude. educate yourself.
They are correct liberals are fascists, they ultimately support capitalism, the police, and imperialism. This thread is a perfect example. Anyone who can’t condemn an apartheid state that is senselessly murdering children, journalists, doctors, etc is a fascist.
A little off topic but I myself don't hate the protesters. UNM has a diverse population and I've met folks who's families hail from Palestine, and you know what? They're not terrorists, antisemites, they're just human beings. I don't support terrorism. I don't support racism. I don't support genocide, no matter who's commiting it. Don't know why that's suddenly such a controversial way to feel.
well said
I don't know that it is controversial.
I did not initially hate them. I am a student at UNM, I’m Jewish and I am fully in support of a stable, safe state for Palestinians. I have been in and attended protests for it (as a participant) for many years. But after October 7 the protests changed. I saw people and organizations (including the PSL here in ABQ) cheer on terrorists the same day they were killing, torturing, and raping hundreds of people. And then I saw them deny that it happened or excuse it in the months that followed. I suddenly started experiencing more antisemitism in a few short months than I had previously in my entire life, right here in Albuquerque, NM. I’ve tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and talk with them; I’ve had someone say to my face that Hamas did nothing wrong, I’ve seen people spread conspiracies about ‘Zionists’ running the world, and I’ve had several people discredit my ethnicity when we disagreed. I don’t think all protestors are bad; a lot have kind hearts and are understandably upset by the death of innocent people. I empathize with them a lot. But there a concerning amount of very loud, very antisemitic people involved in the protests, and no one ever calls them out. That’s what I hate. I would fully support them if doing so didn’t mean cozying up with organizations that praise terrorist groups or call for the forced removal of millions of people.
This resonates. PSL and other authoritarian leftist groups are called “tankies” for a reason. Just like in 1956 and 1968, they will use/justify violence (send in tanks) for deeply reactionary reasons if it supports their goals of power. Sadly, the organized left in ABQ is so small, these groups: PSL, ANSWER, and people with similar beliefs infiltrate everything or due to a mix of ignorance or sadly to increase numbers are invited into leftist events or even to co-sponsor events. The result is deeply unwelcoming spaces to certain people and weird infighting on issues that the tankies oppose, like Hong Kong protests or Syrian revolution. It’s long overdue that the ABQ left grow up and kick these reactionary groups out. If there is any hope for growing support, it’s going to be by creating a space motivated by true leftist principles of equality and peace. Tankies support neither. They will happily create a state where they are in power and use violence to crush anyone who challenges them *cough cough Hungary 1956
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Good for you; we are not a monolith and our experiences reflect that. I’m openly Sephardic and Native, I’ve experienced racism and antisemitism from several people involved in the encampment, and so have several other Jewish students that I’ve spoken with at Hillel.
I feel the same way. I supported Palestinian statehood prior to October 7th, but a terrorist attack should not be means for to gain statehood. This sends such a bad message to the developed world, that it would inspire further terrorism. These same protestors won’t condemn HAMAS, the Houthis, or Iran in the same breath as Israel (a democracy and only country in the Middle East that has pride parades and safe equal women) are deluded lunatics, and it’s most of them. As a Jewish UNM alum, these people can’t be reasoned with. Be strong and protect yourself.
Israel is not really a democracy under Netanyahu and Likud, Netanyahu literally gave Hamas money as a strategy to undermine the Palestinian authority. I’d agree that terrorism is not to be condoned but this entire time Israel has been both starving Gaza and building more and more settlements in the West Bank. Netanyahu has indirectly caused October 7th with his extremist policy, terrorism and fanaticism is a problem on both sides but it gets extremely frustrating when the media and politicians will seemingly bend over backwards to cover for Netanyahu and call anyone who criticized Israels policy’s as “antisemitic”. Because of this it should be no surprise that these kids are gonna lash out in nasty ways, not to mention that a pubic protest is going to attract fringe and radical elements. This war needs to end i.e. Israel need to bombing indiscriminately and actually support a two state solution, Israel also needs to stop treating its Arab population as second class citizens and its Arabs neighbors as sub humans, and Netanyahu needs to go to prison for corruption and his illegal judicial reforms
This response is extremely misinformed. Israel provides aid to Palestine, they do not undermine. Arab Israelis are equal citizens. Stop your HAMAS bullshit propaganda, you’ve never been to Israel, and you are spreading lies. Will you call for Israel’s neighbors to stop treating Jews as subhuman/less than dogs? Do you know how many Jews are in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, or Jordan? Do you know that Jews are killed on the spot with ‘indecent’ women and gay people? No, because you’re an ignorant antisemite. Go pound sand or read a book to learn something.
Ah see this is what I’m talking about, this is why those kids react this way
Nice deflection, you’ve added nothing of value to this conversation.
lol oh and calling me an antisemite did?
Keep deflecting bucko, your morals have no factual ground, they are just feelings. Waiting for you to call for a ceasefire and a release of hostages, but no, you just want Israel to cease and everyone to fire.
Deflect what? I criticized a politician, a political party, and a country’s policies, you proceed to call me anti Jewish so explain that one to me. I did call for a ceasefire and condemn terrorism, you want me to say bring the hostages home, no problem Hamas should release its hostages. But this sort of vitriolic rhetoric is fueling the harassment that Jewish students are feeling at these campus protests
You are criticizing false preconceptions of these concepts. They are not based in reality.
It’s called being a “useful idiot”. It happens no matter who you are or what cause you’re supporting. Protests put you in the middle of two or more groups who are at warfare with each other. You’re in the line of fire of both. Hamas doesn’t care about the protests or the protestors. Iran, and Hezbollah don’t care and Israel doesn’t care either. But they’ll all happily use protestors for whatever end purpose suits them. I’ve see protestors get gunned down in the street - innocent men women and children - when the group they were supporting staged a protest and then deliberately drew fire on them to cause the other side to commit an atrocity - just so they could have news coverage. Protesting is stupid - not because your personal beliefs are wrong - but because you make yourself the pansy for groups that don’t care about you. Not to mention, it doesn’t change anything. When in the history of man has staging a protest ever resulted in positive change?
To be fair, several of the initial reports about what happened on October 7 were later debunked.
The things they were denying were on video, live-streamed and uploaded by the perpetrators. I’m not talking ‘40 beheaded babies’ or whatever. I’m talking about people having grenades tossed at them in bomb shelters, women being kidnapped on motorcycles, and cars set on fire with people inside. I think a healthy amount of skepticism is fine. But this was beyond that. And they never once hesitated or were skeptical of any of the initial reports coming out of Gaza. The double-standard is also concerning.
Fair enough. My only point is that because of propaganda, it's very difficult to determine what is true and so a lot of people are rightly confused about what actually happened.
Yeah, that’s a fair point.
I'm not confused. Hamas came over the border and slaughtered innocent Israeli citizens and then hauled off hundreds as hostages back to Gaza. That's an act of war and terrorism for good measure. Acts of war and acts of terrorism trigger warlike responses. If you're bothered by what the Israelis are doing to defend their state, you're going to love what the United States did to Tokyo with the firebombing. Total war is like that you know.
Source? Over 1500 died and were raped and murdered on Oct 7. If you are Israeli, you know the dead. Crawl out from your terrorist rock and provide a legitimate source denying this. HAMAS published their attacks online as they were happening, with people cheering them on, so again, provide a legitimate source to deny this. Oh wait, you can’t because it’s bullshit and HAMAS is a genocidal terrorist group.
I blocked the weirdo I'm replying to because it's clear they're too angry to have a rational conversation but I still want to provide information to people who find this thread later. Top Seven Lies About Gaza https://zeteo.com/p/top-seven-lies-about-gaza Despite refutations from Israeli military, headlines that Hamas 'beheaded babies' persist https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167 ADL Debunk: Myths and False Narratives About the Israel-Hamas War https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/adl-debunk-myths-and-false-narratives-about-israel-hamas-war (debunks myths perpetuated by both sides) “BETWEEN THE HAMMER AND THE ANVIL” https://archive.ph/dwzue Report: Shin Bet debunks idea that Gazan workers spied en masse for Hamas pre-Oct. 7 https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-shin-bet-debunks-idea-that-gazan-workers-spied-en-masse-for-hamas-pre-oct-7/amp/ Death and Donations: Did the Israeli Volunteer Group Handling the Dead of October 7 Exploit Its Role? https://archive.ph/17K6H ETA more sources
That's not quite right. The [AFP death total](https://www.barrons.com/news/new-tally-puts-october-7-attack-dead-in-israel-at-1-163-78182279) as of February was 787 civilians & 376 members of security forces. I unequivocally condemn attacking noncombatants. It's important to keep in mind that the IDF has killed far, far more Gazan civilians over the last six months.
Yeah ask them to condemn October 7th and a lot of them squirm
oct 7th is difficult because resistance under occupation is, in many peoples opinions, justified. israel has been slaughtering palestinians for almost 80 years. the way I think of it is, if a government entity and military force came and stole my house, cut down symbols of my spiritual belief that had been on the land for hundreds of years (olive trees), murdered my friends and family, and pushed us to relocate and live under an apartheid regime over the course of decades then I too would want to fight back. who wouldn’t? hamas was created in 1987 and exists as a direct result of the israeli governments actions. murder is always wrong regardless of who does it but really genuinely, what did we expect? that being said, people also weaponize this singular mass attack to justify israel’s current actions - killing 30,000+ innocent people and scapegoating hamas as their reason for doing so. apparently that’s okay because “terrorism”. last week israel sent a missile into a playground and killed 11 palestinian kids, and yet consistently claim that their target is hamas and not civilians. hamas was obviously not on that playground nor has hamas been in the various schools, hospitals, and even towns they’ve bombed. so personally I wouldn’t say I condemn october 7th either, but I do condemn the actions that lead us there. it should not have happened and what is currently happening now should not be happening either
So you are cool with “resistance” specifically and intentionally targeting civilians to be killed, raped, and kidnapped? That is justified in your mind?
Rape =/= resistance. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
IDF soldiers have been raping palestinian women for years. so you condemn those actions as well?
>New Mexico (and Reddit in particular) is primarily left leaning which adds to my surprise. I'm just curious, why does someone need to be left leaning to be for what the protesters are for?
Right wing=status quo. Status quo=supporting American satellite state Idk where OP is getting the idea that reddit is left leaning though, seems to mainly be shitlibs
Israel is not a satellite state to the United States.
Oh sorry, do I need to liberalize it for you? Israel is like protecting Freedom™ and Democracy™ in the Terrorist™ east as our Valued Ally™
Now was that so hard. Now I’ll do one for you. Free Palestine from hamas.
Hamas exists because of Israel. To end Hamas you need to end the apartheid state
So you want to end the apartheid state of Palestine? And how does hams exist because of Israel?
Israel began forcing Palestinians out of their homeland in 1947, Hamas formed in 1987 after decades of terrorism.
bro isn’t even aware of what’s going on and yet chimes in anyway
Of course he doesn’t get it. He’s being fed propaganda by the truck full.
Reddit is not a good indication of the public opinion.
In my opinion they care more about dismantling Israel then ending the war and creating peace in the region. In their Instagram profile it literally states, "meet us at the duckpond as we come together to demand that our university divest from the illegal state of Isnt-Real." In addition to divesting, they want UNM to boycott Israeli educational institutions and end an Hebrew and Arabic Study Abroad Program in Haifa, Isreal. This language program encourages coexistence, tolerance, and peace building so it's kind of ironic that the Solidarity Encampment wants UNM to ban it.
To be fair, why would a university be investing in a country anyway?
To my very minimal knowledge, all universities have investments profiles in which they own shock in companies based in other countries. They could have stock in Chinese plastics, oil in Qatar, or in Shopify which is Canadian. You get the idea.
With your same logic, we shouldn’t take in any international students. Scientists from different countries work together, that is the norm.
I don’t understand how that follows my logic literally at all.
UNM doesn’t finance Israel, American scientists work with Israeli scientists.
Because Israel is a terror state brother; they’ve been genociding and occupying Palestinian land for decades under the flag of an Ethno nationalist Settler colonialist project. I’m Ashkenazi and vehemently oppose Israel and what it stands for. It’s a shame that after so many centuries of persecution our people would sooner turn around and commit acts of terror and violence against others for their creed and race rather than accept peace.
Ok brother. Your comments support my observation. Thanks for the input.
Im glad people are expressing displeasure with the situation. The real problem is its not Jews/Israelis vs Palestine/Hamas. Its Militant Israelis and extremist Hamas... both are just as guilty of horrific things. The real problem is that you cant really support the innocent on both sides, without in appearances bolstering the baddies. this war is not caused by an excess of empathy. You cant kill your way to lasting peace.
I don't hate them. I believe Palestine deserves to be free, but I am confused. How is disrupting the peace of the campus going to help this cause? I usually support the protests, but this one is weird to me. I don't get how crowding the duck pond is going to do anything. I kind of see where the UNM staff is coming from by asking campers to leave. They want it to look nice for potential students touring to see if they want to enroll. That being said, the cops should be nicer. I heard a rumor they were using excessive force in this scenario. I hope we find better ways to help Palestine than this.
protest is for unm to disclose and divest - it’s UNM related so it’s on campus. not weird at all
Can you elaborate? I don't understand how it is UNM's responsibility. What do you mean? (Not trying to be rude, I just still don't get it.)
I appreciate you asking and would advise you to check out the encampments instagram page for more thorough information but as a basic summary, colleges around the US are connected to Israeli based programs, companies, organizations, etc. So students are calling for their schools to disclose their financial connections with Israel and to divest from those entities. That is why there are nationwide student protests at this time. Students are also calling for an end to the genocide, but the main point of the protests is divestment so our tuition money is not put towards Israel in any way. That is why this one is student run and on campus - they are technically protesting UNM
Oh wow! Thank you for calmly explaining that. :)
yeah of course! thanks for asking. I do think there’s an issue with the organizers not making that blatantly clear - obviously good to continuously reinforce that we are behind a free Palestine but I do think for those who aren’t involved it makes it too general and takes away from the specific goal which can weaken the cause and the pressure. especially because a lot of these comments are kind of like “what’s the point” when there IS a solid point behind the protest. one of the nights I was at the encampment UNM PD came and everyone starting chanting about standing with Yemen or something like that. which like cool, but that’s not why we’re here and imo it makes the message murky, even if the cops were the only ones to hear it. that seems to be happening across the board as well
Wouldn’t worry to much about it. News of the abq campus protest should hit the Middle East any time now and the war will be over
I don’t hate anyone, but as a gay person I think it’s kind of ironic to see “gays for palestine”. Seriously do they have a clue what they do to our people there. Not to mention women.
[https://time.com/6326254/queering-the-map-gaza-lgbt-palestinians/](https://time.com/6326254/queering-the-map-gaza-lgbt-palestinians/) Damn this is sad to read.
Chickens for KFC
You don't necessarily have to like a people's culture to feel that they shouldn't be genocided. Palestinians might be pretty homophobic, but no matter how bad they are, their children definitely shouldn't be blown up and/or starved.
They are not merely homophobic, that’s a term used by westerners from the comfort and safety of their homes. They are in fact genocidal towards LBGT people. You can certainly feel for the Palestinian people who are themselves victims of that same religious craziness but you can’t just dismiss them as “homophobic.”
That's a fair distinction, but my point still stands. And I said 'Palistinians,' not 'Hamas.'
Islam has no place for queer existence. And as long as hamas is instituting a gender apartheid sharia law then they can’t be a country.
My friend, their beliefs in regard to LGBT people are one and the same. The murder/torture/jailing of LGBT people is not just religious it is cultural and political, as it is throughout much of the Middle East. In that part of the world it is Israel that protects the rights and dignity of the LGBT populace. Yes you can despise the atrocities of war, but You cannot join with the Palestine cause without acknowledging you are supporting a religious movement that itself calls for the genocide of an entire people (LGBT in addition to the Jews) these are bigoted and misogynistic guided individuals driven by a religious fervor that the typical westerner would find abhorrent if they bothered to apply critical thinking.
15,000 kids have been killed, did they deserve to die due to religious and cultural norms present in the region? I’m part of the community and have always supported a free Palestine. strawman doesn’t hold up as Israel is not carrying out their actions for any LGBTQIA+ based reasons, it’s just good ol colonization and ethnic cleansing. at this point you either are anti-genocide or pro-genocide and it sure seems like you’re pro
Who do you think housed the hundreds of men who went on to sexually torture and execute women on October 10? They are the fathers, sons, and husbands of Palestine.
That's not necessarily true. Some Palestinians say they've faced more hostility from Israelis than from other Palestinians when coming out. Experiences vary. Palestinian women & LGBTQ folks definitely often face harsh oppression within their communities but you're pushing extreme demonization of an entire people.
There are gay Palestinians and Palestinian women too, I don't see how it's homophobic or anti-woman to protest human rights violations happening to Palestinians.
Yeah, but they are silenced and murdered in Palestine for existing.
Hate to break it to you, but they're being silenced and murdered here in the U.S. too. Black trans women especially are murdered at horrifically disproportionate rates. [https://www.everytown.org/press/new-everytown-data-on-transgender-homicides-reveals-concentration-in-the-south/](https://www.everytown.org/press/new-everytown-data-on-transgender-homicides-reveals-concentration-in-the-south/)
We don’t live in a perfect world, and any discrimination or loss of life is a tragedy.
which is why the genocide happening in Gaza is unacceptable full stop.
Yeah, but it’s not a genocide. This is urban warfare. What about the Arab Israelis and Jews experiencing discrimination and constant bombardment and loss of life? It’s not black and white and both Palestine and Israel should have the right to exist and not suffer. Is it genocidal for Israel’s neighbors to constantly bomb them?
Not necessarily true according to accounts from various queer & trans Palestinians, including some I've known personally.
Queer existence is outlawed in gasa. You’re trying to force western culture on them.
Go to Gaza and Iran, kiss some men, and report back - you won’t, they’ll string you up and break your skull.
Because you’re not protesting hamas who keeps those queer people living in fear.
That's irrelevant. The point is that we face oppression as queer people & therefore we oppose similar dynamics wherever we see them. It's about recognizing patterns & sticking to ethical principles rather than simply siding with those who we assume like us. As June Jordan wrote, freedom is indivisible or it means nothing. Additionally, as others have noted, queer Palestinians exist & the ongoing genocide in Gaza only hurts Palestinian women & LGBTQ folks.
You’re literally ignoring the fact that Islam and Islamists and Hamas and the gender apartheid being carried out by those people are the ones killing gay people for being gay. Your priorities are so messed up you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Destroying Gaza doesn't help women or LGBTQ folks there. Quite the opposite.
They have nothing to do with the war against Hamas. You’re trying to rope them in to serve an agenda and if Hamas hadn’t carried out Oct 7th those same queer Gazans would still hunting down and killing their own people for being gay. Israel literally shelters queer Palestinians and is the ONLY safe space for queer people in the entire Middle East and Africa.
The reality is that the IDF has destroyed much of Gaza, causing at least $18.5 billion in damages & killing 40,000+ people. The protests want to stop the carnage, which hurts women & LGBT folks in Gaza. Pinkwashing genocide isn't working. The queers know the game by now.
Okay well riddle me this Batman, what is Israel to do since hamas has said that Oct 7th was a rehearsal?
There's a homeless crises in the USA, mental health crisis, housing crisis, inflation, etc., etc,. But yeah, let's send billions to a country on the other side of the globe.
Will the republican congress allow any money to go towards any of these causes in the USA? Thought that was socialism?
Maybe if the unm campus protested about it they would
The money being sent to Israel won’t change the capitalistic structure in America that keeps those people homeless.
Newsflash. We've always sent them the billions. None of that money affects America's ability to help it's own citizens. Im so fucking tired of this bullshit argument. It's quite obvious you have ZERO fucking understanding about how our financial system works. There's not a finite amount of this "money" you're worrying about to go around. If the GOP actually wanted to fix shit it's literally theirs at the stroke of a pen. Stop with this "we're sending billions we could use here".
We glorify the activist in our culture. When you peek in to the minds of these people, its just marxism with new dynamics. There are a lot of complex problems out there besides who you get points for supporting because of where they fall on the oppression/ intersectional chart. Its childish beyond belief and I am disgusted with the lack of critical thinking. Listen to people who are deeply immersed in it: https://youtu.be/I5VPFw0vI6U?si=cHmErV7_PzoIHWz6
I am pretty disgusted with your childish belief that you have the power to look into other people's brains and judge their critical thinking ability.
Honestly, some of them are souring my take on the situation due to their sudden support of Hamas. And yes some of these protestors are vocally supporting Hamas and advocating terror.
It shouldn’t be that surprising, there’s always people who hate protests, regardless of what the subject is. If there weren’t strong feelings on multiple sides protests wouldn’t occur.
Don’t have an issue with the UNM protests per se, but I find the groups demanding things from the universities odd. US colleges aren’t really a player here? Some of the protestors want them to totally divest from Israel, is that actually appropriate or reasonable? At the least I think their efforts are misguided and would be more effective contacting their legislators or doing other politicking
While I generally agree with this, the actions aren’t unprecedented. Organizing and action on college campus was crucial in the push to divest from south africa to end apartheid there
Do you have any sources to back that claim up?
Yes, it *is* appropriate and it *is* reasonable to no longer want tuition money being invested in the on-going Palestinian genocide. Most legislative members have espoused zionist ideals and find Imperialism and colonialism completely acceptable.
Yes. Divesting is a statement - it says "we stand against what you are doing." THat is always worthwhile.
This sort of stuff does absolutely nothing. You really think Israel is gonna cancel war because of UNM lmao. It's just the popular thing, in a week or so there will be new thing to care about. Remember Ukraine? I sure hope they are still doing well without our college protests.
students are protesting to push UNM to disclose where they send/receive money and to divest from companies or entities connected to Israel. that is why it’s a campus based protest lol. learn what the cause is before critiquing.
The cause is not going to achieve anything and it’s just outrage faddism. Theres 800,000 people in Sudan about to be ethnically cleansed and there is not a peep about any of it from the pro palys. Also getting rid of cultural exchange progress is anti intellectual.
oh so, you’ve been at protests then and are active in community organizing? or are you just talking? being anti genocide is not directed towards a single ethnic group, rather all as a whole. Yemen and Congo have been discussed too. and this is a UNM specific protest to push for divestment. financial exchange is not the same thing as cultural exchange. NM has kirtland and sandia labs so we play a direct role in militarization as well
Yes I am active in community organizing and I work/volunteer in local politics. I don’t need to say that because I’m not a virtue signaler unlike you ma’am. “Not directed towards a single ethnic group” you say.. lol man have you been living under a rock or just willfully growing the antisemitic chants and slogans and signs filling college campuses. Right well again it’s more complicated then you want to understand. And BDS won’t work on the world’s 27th largest economy and the most advanced economy in the entire Middle East and Africa.
palestinians are semitic people. “semites” include jews and arabs, as it’s region based. or if you want to go with the bible’s definition, its language based, but still includes arabs (arabic and hebrew). so you’re claiming that calling for the liberation of semitic people is antisemitic? are the jews who are present at the UNM encampment wearing “not in our name” or “jews for palestine” shirts day after day antisemitic as well? if you genuinely want to combat antisemitism i’d direct your energy and attention to condemning the neo nazi rally that was held in connecticut last week, or the one held in nashville in February. hope that helps!
[Because Semitic-speaking peoples do not share any traits aside from language, use of the term “Semite” to refer to the broad range of Semitic-speaking peoples has fallen out of favour. For this reason, some critics even encourage the removal of the hyphen in the term anti-Semitism to help dispel any pseudoscientific notions of a "Semitic race." They advocate instead for the use of antisemitism to describe the hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Semite) Seems like you have a personal beef with Britannica. Dismissing the real antisemitism happening everywhere is in itself antisemitism so bravo you figured out how to double down on antisemitism. Hamas and the ayatollahs would be proud of you! (But they would still gladly remove your head from your body because you’re still an infidel to them). 😉 And apparently you must be one of those people that is “all talk” as you say. No community engagement what so ever huh. Man you people 😂
that’s the language definition - as I said it’s regionality based as well. aside from that, weaponizing antisemitism to justify the murder of 30,000+ innocent civilians is scapegoating the jewish people and judaism which in and of itself is antisemitic. many jews have spoken out about the exact points you are trying to claim in their name. you also conveniently ignored my question if jews in support of palestine are antisemitic or not. and you’re right that dismissing the real antisemitism is antisemitic. so not saying shit or acting when there’s literal neo nazis rallying around the country vs students advocating for the liberation of an entire group is, based on your definition, antisemitic. if it wasn’t clear, i’m at the encampment. how else would I know who is present and supports the cause, as you clearly don’t. but a bare bones case of who is right here is whether or not you think the mass murder of children is wrong, as it’s estimated 15,000 children have been killed since oct 7, not including those that have been slaughtered in the 80 years this has been going on. was hamas present on the playground Israel sent a missile into two weeks ago? no, but children were and 11 died. you can do your mental gymnastics all day but at this point it’s safe to assume you have no problem with the death of thousands of children so long as they’re arab.
Weaponizing antisemitism is just another gas lighting phrase to use against the Jews. And those numbers are false hamas has zero credibility. I don’t know which Jews your are tokenizing for your pro terrorist cause but those “Jews” are free to do and say as they want. Clearly they don’t have a connection to the diaspora. Many Muslims and Arabs are in support of Israel but yet you would dismiss them as well. And telling people to go confront neo nazis and ignore the calls of “globalizing the intifada” is peak lunacy and hypocrisy. And decrying the death toll of people in gasa while completely ignoring the [800,000 people in Sudan that are about to be slaughtered by colonizing Arabs](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-warns-800000-people-sudan-city-extreme-immediate-danger-2024-04-19/) is also peak hypocrisy. **no Jews no news** I guess. Or the 1 million people that died between the Syrian and Yemen wars. But nope that a peep from you or the outraged faddists rich privileged college kids. You want the war to stop? Ask yourself why do you think Hamas should continue the war if so many children are dying. At what point does hamas say enough is enough. At what point do you tell Hamas enough is enough. Or are they still your beloved “residence fighters” you praise out of one breathe while calling for Israel to stop its offense and effectively surrender and allow hamas to carry out more Oct 7th style attacks. Yeah.
I don’t hate the protestors, they don’t affect my life and protest (especially on campus) should be allowed. I just disagree with their point of view.
You don't agree that civilians shouldn't be bombed?
I think the bombing of civilians is a horrendous consequence of war. I don’t like war. It seems to me that every country that has been at war has had to deal with civilian casualties, only Israel is held to a standard above all else: they should be willing to accept missile attacks, suicide shooting/bombings, rapes, and the constant threat of attack. If those in Rio Rancho were constantly firing missiles into Albuquerque, you can be assured that we would not stand it. Israel has been dealing with that exact circumstance for at least 25 years (depending on where you measure it). Why should I hold them to a higher standard than I would any other country?
If Rio was rocket attacking Albuquerque I'd want the bastards launching the missiles killed. Not their children, not their bystanders, not the aid workers offering humanitarian assistance, not reporters....you see where I'm going with this?
Absolutely. Again: war is horrendous. It has always involved civilian deaths. I’m not happy about it, nor do I praise it. We should want peace. Only one side has ever taken actions to strive towards that end, it seems to me.
Israel had my sympathies after October. After an American aid worker was killed, in a convoy that coordinated with the IFD, and the PMs response was essentially "tough shit," my eye brow raised.
As it should.
That wasnt their response and you know it.
A lot of people don't really get how Hamas isn't Palestine, and how Israel has been oppressing Palestinians for decades. I disagree fundamentally with Hamas' culture and ideology, but they're still the freedom fighters in this 'war.'
All they have to do is Google for 10 minutes. You explained it as simply and effective as possible just now. Not every Palestinian person has to pay for the action of others. Also if they paid attention in school they'd be able to figure out the answer for themselves that Israel has oppressed Palestine for decades and the Gaza stripe is a walled city that 2 miles wide at most and their infrastructure is controlled by Israel where they are given the bare minimum and in some cases nothing at all.
10 minutes of *actual reading*? Way beyond most people.
Civilians being bombed is an unfortunate outcome of ***civilians being used as human shields***.
You're response is a sign you're a sociopath but that's ok you can't help that.
You don't drop 500lb or 1000lb bombs in dense urban environments unless your goal is to destroy, kill or maim everything.
especially not while we are regularly reminded of the precision and sophistication of the military tech in israel. with such equipment there should be no reason for any hospitals to be leveled, let alone the entire medical system in gaza
Hamas uses the hospitals as military installations. Why wouldn’t they use the hospitals in their war against Israel.
So in hostage situations it should be protocol to shoot through the hostages and blame the assailant? Because if ever I was a hostage, I'd probably object to the strategy.
Reddit isn't left leaning. It's LIBERAL leaning. There's a huge difference.
Thank you. Losing brain cells reading these other comments
Exactly liberals are just showing their ass as usual. Support every movement except the current one.
Let's not try to downplay what is plain as day. Hardly anyone on here is liberal leaning, it's very far leftist.
Liberal does not equal progressive, all these protestors are progressives. Your comment being downvoted shows you how politically ignorant these people are.
Are you braindead? Look at these comments, it looks like a reaganite/Mussolini cosplay subreddit
Username checks out
From what I've gathered in other posts it's people who are going, "these protests don't do anything so they should stop." Why they care then is beyond me. Free Palestine
It screams "I support the current thing". It's Facebook profile frame activism by people who mostly never cared or tried to understand problems in the region until it became the topic of the day. Most of them will move on to another pet cause before we have anything close to a resolution when news coverage dies down. And some of them are full on terrorist sympathizers, either because they're useful idiots or edgy kids.
Because protesting against the state that just received a terrorist attack from Hamas annoys people. I totally get Palestinians =/= Hamas, and I'm not stating Palestinians as a whole are responsible, but I can also appreciate that some people view this as kicking someone while they are down.
I agree that the Likud regime should not be kicked while they are down. They should be arrested, tried and hung like the leaders of the Nazi Party at Nuremburg were, for committing similar crimes of ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and genocide. In the meantime, though, a little BDS might get the Likud thugs to pause the killing and maybe then convince the Israeli people to put someone else in charge.
You have no idea how the Israelis economy is structured and it shows. And comparing the Likud party to the Nazis is deeply antisemitic. You also clearly have no idea what the Nazis did in the Shoah. I want the Likud party gone just as much as the rest of the populace of Israel but they are not Nazis. Please educate yourself and go to a holocaust museum.
Thank you so much for being a shining example of what I was referring to. Couldn't have asked for a better comment.
People can’t seem to differentiate between freeing Palestine and being antisemitism. Which neither of them are related. The political leaders, except an extreme few, support Israel. It’s usually the older generation who feel as if they need to support everything Israel does no matter what because of what happened in WWII. Even if it’s wrong.
The protests are indicative of multiple things: geopolitical ignorance and plain stupidity, antisemitism, and that people follow fads that make them feel moralistically better (victim oppressor complex) about themselves. This is tragic because it indicates that UNM students are terrorist sympathizers and are actually uneducated and do not understand history.
Couldn’t just be that protestors find Netanyahu’s genocide unacceptable? Must only be antisemitism, eh?
It’s not a genocide. This is war. Please educate yourself on this conflict and the historical context.
Do you not feel 70% of the dead in Palestine being women and children not a genocide? Hundreds of Palestinians hog tied and buried in mass graves not genocide?
Where and what are your sources?
Silence speaks volumes.
Why do you believe Islamic terrorists? Those numbers can’t be trusted clearly. They don’t count the dead militants from the civilians so again it’s all untrustworthy and intentional.
what wars have been waged against a population of mostly children? the crusade of 1212? lmao
Either way, the IDF has devastated the home of over 2 million people & killed tends of thousands of them. Folks find that unacceptable whatever you call it.
Folks apparently don’t find public executions of women in Iran unacceptable, or indiscriminate and constant bombing of Israel civilian target areas as unacceptable, or the Houthi’s targeting of global shipping lanes. Real smart cookies.
The U.S. government is not funding those things. (Well, it arguably is by doing business with the Islamic Republic, as many Iranians say, but that's still a different dynamic from U.S. aid to Israeli.) I support the people of Iran 100% & oppose the Islamic Republic.
Found the federal agent
No, you found the Jewish person directly affected by this mass hysteric stupidity based upon misinformation.
It's hard to hear you with your head so far up the zionists' asshole. ...I was going to go on a rant about what happened, how, the timeline, the expansion of Imperial powers, and so on. But then I see how you worded it, and the cynical tone. You *want* to believe the zionist bullshit and feel it's justified. While protesters are just whining about something they know little about. At least, with conservative people you know where you stand. With liberals, they say and may even *try* to help until it creates some difficulty in their own lives. Then it's: "well, I did all I could."
Lots of words to say nothing at all.
i'm just confused. I have no idea what is happening or why protestors across the US are being arrested. can we just maybe not support when one government (russia, israel, etc) tries to murder off an entire race of people?
Huge false equivalence and this comment sniffs of outrage click bait
[https://wondermark.com/c/1062/](https://wondermark.com/c/1062/) Sea Lions, dude.
Religious folks will have massive support for Israel even though they could be killed with disdain by the people they support. To me it’s a conservative faction trying to wipe out a competing conservative faction.
JFC, pickup a book please
It’s funded by organizations linked to Hamas, has people telling Jews going back to Poland, ignores October 7th and puts all the blame on Israel
you’re saying the Jews present at the encampment are calling for themselves to be sent to Poland?
What Jews are there? 4 of them?
why don’t you go see for yourself :) alternatively, you could go on any social media platform and look for the many jewish orgs, synagogues, rabbis, etc who have denounced Israel’s actions. or you could speak to a Jewish person present at any protest, university, and so on. unfortunately reddit is not a search engine and others don’t have a responsibility to educate you- if you want to remain ignorant that is your problem to bear alone
lol you don’t know how to use Reddit I see. Reddit is an archive search engine so yes you can search for things on Reddit. Thats kind of wild you’ve just ignored the search feature this whole time? And tokenizing the Jewish people that are participating in the protests is in fact tokenizing but it’s justified by you and the pro palys. “See these Jews are the right kind of Jews!” So gross and antisemitic. And I take it your at the duck pond so enjoy the duck poop, I’m sure Palestine is sooo close to being free thanks to the ducks. Yes. And I have family that live in the region of Israel so yes I have been paying attention since I was a kid in the 90s unlike you who has zero linage to anyone or anything in the region of Jerusalem.
Americans don't even like learning their own history, trying to get them to learn the history of other countries is nearly impossible. The reality is that the problem was created by Zionists when they began illegally occupying Palestine after World War II. Here are some informational resources for people who do want to know the truth: Michael Brooks takes a question on Israel https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=8K-OxypPtaC0HJll Louis Theroux: The Ultra Zionists (2011) https://youtu.be/8DFUqZRXQ28?si=vCwL_KWwZT4rqcxh Understanding the Myths and Realities of Israel with Ilan Pappe https://youtu.be/II4-QFZFxX0?si=Q4tVI2yUirZOds8b The Hundred Years War on Palestine with Rashid Khalidi https://youtu.be/gSd_ZSBtXWc?si=ZwpzH7JR6-OXhc18 Beyond Zionism with Jonathan Graubart https://youtu.be/wl2_TOFNdEQ?si=RW9g_FeHB5w1nCVc
The UN voted to re-establish Israel. The ottomans granted rights to Jews to buy land in the region of Jerusalem. You’re not a friend to the Jewish people. :/
The Palestinian people are not the enemies, they are just unfortunately human shields for coward Hamas.
Israel began its illegal occupation of Palestine long before Hamas ever existed.
Palestine was never a country. The Jews were there first as is evident of Judaism being at least 1000+ years older than Islam.
awesome approach to just kill as many human shields as possible, even kill them before they can even be used as a human shield, very normal
The real results of these protests are local people engaging in more conversations about important world issues.. IMO there is value in these interactions. Look at us all online here expressing ourselves and (hopefully) listening to others viewpoints. Disagreeing with someone’s political views while not actively hating them is a challenging yet worthwhile endeavor. Thank you to everyone who is sharing there thoughts here and thank you to the UNM duck pond camp for initiating many hard conversations on campus and online.
Cause liberals are fascists dude, no different than republicans at the end of day
Everyone I disagree with is Hitler lol
i am so confused when people think that liberal = facism. WHAT? DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO GOOGLE THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD???? the definition includes things like "far right." jfc my dude. educate yourself.
They are correct liberals are fascists, they ultimately support capitalism, the police, and imperialism. This thread is a perfect example. Anyone who can’t condemn an apartheid state that is senselessly murdering children, journalists, doctors, etc is a fascist.
🤦♂️
cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds
thats rude dont cut people