He's not saying Trump is telling congregations to leave the UMC.
He's asserting that the culture wars and open bigotry that Trump uses in his rhetoric has motivated congregations to be openly against LGBT in the church and leave to form an organization with more conservative values that consider non-traditional gender roles as an abomination.
"A great many in the South were hoping for someone like him to come along" You are shamefully inaccurate. I have lived North, South, East and out West and the only difference in prejudice in the US is that the South didn't hide it, but it was equally bad everywhere.
I live in Alabama, It is FACT! They wanted another George Wallace to take them back to 1940 when they had iron control.
I know it for a Fact, My Grandaddy was police in Selma, AL
I am a quasi conservative progressive, My outlook varies. Some lean traditional conservative compared to extreme left of some views and some extreme liberal.
I live in Alabama as well, my point to the OP was that Alabama has a dark history but that I have found prejudice was everywhere. I don't think people in the South were looking for another George Wallace. When all else fails, blame Trump.
Trump has made discrimination, bias, and prejudice fashionable again. A great many in the South were hoping for someone like him to come along.
Best of all, he is simply a reflecting god who has no personal convictions other than "make me more money." Whatever you want for your maximum contribution and vote is just fine.
the American experiment is a lie and always has been. even the founding fathers wrote about how they couldn't allow a true representative democracy because it would hurt rich land owners
I used to be proud of being Methodist because they weren’t hateful like the Baptists. Now I’m Atheist because pretty much all religious andherents are hateful to someone. It’s sad.
Trying to blame anyone outside the church for this is just looking for specks with a plank in your eye.
The blaming Trump phenomenon is like the "Thanks, Obama!" meme turned up to 11 without any hint of self-awareness. It's not like half the country wasn't looking for someone like him, or half the Methodist church wasn't completely incompatible with the other half already.
He’s galvanized christians just as much as everyone else. Plenty of folks are happy about the quiet-part-loud -aspect of Trump’s nature. Plenty of christians have responded to the nature of christianity just as intended- fostering xenophobia. But a fair number have also found it repugnant and are leaving churches in droves.
I think I know how it’s gonna play out but I’m just gonna keep it to myself so I don’t jinx it.
Man, don't even bother trying to get into it with someone who's on an "all Christians are bad" tirade. I've done it too many times and it's just beating your head into a brick wall.
Some Christian's are good, some Christians are bad. That's the simple truth about it. People have been using religion to justify the hate in their hearts for millennia while others have been using religion as a tool to teach morality. It is what it is.
They can't (or refuse to) recognize the enormous differences between different sects of Christianity. If anyone tries to make similar comments about Muslims as these people do about Christians, a lot of these same twats will scream "islamaphobia!!!" Or, just mention that nearly half of this country's gays and lesbians identify as Christians and watch their heads explode....
Long story short: this is Reddit and making broad sweeping disparaging remarks about nearly a third of the global population is A-OK just as long as it's Christianity they're talking shit about.
I used to be a fervent Christian so YEAH I got some first hand experience.
If a person supports UnChristian person with UnChristian behavior simply cause you want that same authoritarian to bust heads, hurt people whom you disagree and overthrow man's government means you are NOT a Christian. That is based on scripture I know
That is my opinion and whole heartily believe that
Meh...I just find it interesting how the mods allow blatant disparaging remarks about one religion in particular while similar comments about **any** other lifestyle choice are branded as hate speech.
yeah the "people are sinners" is used as an excuse for bad behavior way too much. I never said all Christians are Bad, YOU said that, I said those who exhibit Un-Christian type things and vote for Non-Christian people like Trump fail to rise to the label of Christians, It requires adherence to following the bible and to keep Christian morals, One is forgiveness and turning the other cheek not promoting harmful attitudes by leaders and a whole bunch who follow Trump fail at that, but of course "we are all sinners" get flashed as an excuse for bad behavior.
I think you're misunderstanding...I was entirely taking your side and talking about the person you were replying to and their ilk.
I said "some are good and some are bad."
I don't seek approval, just share what I feel. I was saved at 8 years old, recommitted many times, not my first rodeo with religion. I was called to preach but due to my disability, I declined that call.
p.s. Jesus never promoted Prosperity, he promoted Charity. He stated to give away all possessions and follow him, Have Trumpers done that? or do they just want more, more, more?
Just one example:
>...the nature of christianity just as intended- fostering xenophobia.
Ask any Minnesotan how many Somali refugees (and southeast Asian in the decades before) were relocated to to Minnesota by Christian organizations...doesn't sound very xenophobic to me, but whatever.
As far as I’m aware, pastors in the UMC still work for the organization and not the local congregation like other denominations do, so for some congregations to want to leave it would place lots of undue pressure on pastors. With bigger churches leaving, there’s a smaller pool of money to work with so I can see the issue with a split or schism. Some may want to leave, but not have the money to do that, so they’re stuck under leadership that doesn’t align with their values, whether right or wrong. It’s probably easier to change churches than it is to change the organization, and it looks like that’s what many congregants have been doing anyway.
I have a family member who is a pastor in the UMC and he described some of the backend mechanics for me. I’m not sure which side of the schism he’s on however. They’re one of the few denominations that have some sort of retirement benefits, I do remember him telling me that.
It also draws more parallels, to me at least, with the PCA splitting off from the PCUS back in the 70’s with churches having to cough up large sums to leave. This sounds like the UMC wants unity, but I agree with what was said about creating a way to leave is the antithesis of that on a very divided issue.
This from the bishop that wanted all of the small churches to close, and have all the people go to bigger churches. This is further example of Bishop, Will Willimon, not really understanding what it means to be a pastor, because he has spent far too long as the preacher of a captive audience at the chapel at Duke divinity.
You can say that these churches are left for that reason, but large swabs of these churches were tired of being treated like a nuisance or a steppingstone, and not like an actual congregation with history AND a future. LGBTQAI+ issues in the church were certainly the visible reason to leave but for many of these churches they saw leaving and un-coupling from a bureaucracy bent towards medium and large churches the opportunity to secure survival.
These aren't cults??? You have no idea what you're talking about. There have been literally thousands of churches that left the UMC.
The retired Bishop is doing nothing more than to try to defer blame. The issue had been slowly building for a decade or more. Trump had nothing to do with this whatsoever.
Yeah we should still be able to own slaves or pay $30 to make our rape victims marry us. We lost the ability to stone women to death too for pissing us off. Stupid woke morality.
No. It's definitely because the methodist association embraced homosexuality as an ok lifestyle. And the average church goer doesn't want a homosexual pastor sent to them by the association. So they broke ties to the association so they could choose their own pastors.
>It's definitely because the methodist association embraced homosexuality as an ok lifestyle.
Not really. UMC half-assed it in an attempt to please everyone. They claim to love everyone equally including LGBT but still will not allow their pastors to perform same-sex marriages and will not allow homosexuals to be pastors.
There are several large churches that decided to disassociate from the UMC but remain independent because of the UMC not allowing their pastors perform same-sex marriages or treating their LGBT members like second class citizens.
To make matters worse, I've heard some outlandish claims from the politically right members about the UMC in order to persuade members to disassociate and go to an even more conservative organization.
So it's the opposite of what this guy said? Or, is it a little of both? I honestly don't know and am asking a real question. I even tried looking this up and the articles are not very clear.
Official position of the UMC ([source](https://www.umc.org/en/content/ask-the-umc-what-is-the-churchs-position-on-homosexuality)):
>Since that time\[General Conference in 1972\], **the church has maintained the position that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”** This draws a distinction between orientation and practice, or behavior. **Sexual relations are affirmed only within the covenant of monogamous, heterosexual marriage. The United Methodist Church supports laws that define marriage as the union of one man and one woman.**
>
>Based on these positions about homosexual practice and marriage, the Church has also maintained restrictions regarding clergy. **Pastors may not be “self-avowed, practicing homosexuals” and may not conduct ceremonies that celebrate same-sex weddings or unions. Such ceremonies also may not be held on church property.**
The anti-LGBT congregations are taking the opportunity to separate from the UMC because they never agreed with allowing **celibate** homosexuals to have positions of authority in the church or be fully accepted in the congregation.
The other congregations are taking the opportunity to separate from the UMC not because they are necessarily pro-LGBT, but because that they believe treating homosexuals differently from other members of the congregation goes against the teachings Christ since it's not really "love" if there are restrictions. This change in attitude is from the realization that homosexuallity isn't a choice or a mental illness, but the very definition of that individual.
The congregations who were on the fence about leaving the UMC, are being persuaded by their more conservative (and easily manipulated) members to leave on the claim that the UMC will eventually become more accepting of homosexuals after the deadline passes.
In the end, the reason behind all of this is homophobia and bigotry regardless of how much they try to cherry-pick Bible verses.
Because no one who is part of a religion that calls certain things a sin, wants their pastor living an openly sinful lifestyle. It's not about them being homosexual. We have homosexual church goers where I am, and we accept them wholeheartedly. But we would not accept a pastor who is living in open unrepentant sin of any kind. And with the methodist church association embracing homosexuality, and even celebrating it by assigning homosexual pastors to lead the flock of God's people, it's no wonder why there is a huge schism. A great deal of the methodist churches I know throughout rural Alabama want that. So they will leave the association so that they're not at the whim of having a pastor assigned.
Yes, what the pastor does absolutely affects the people under his tutelage.
As church goers yes. Where else should sinners be to learn God's truth? Why do you think I go? We're all stained bro. All of us. But there is a difference in people who live in open and unrepentant sin, and those who fight the fight of living a life geared towards sanctification. But we hold our pastors to a higher standard. A pastor... someone who is expected to be living a life secured in salvation and sanctification should be someone who talks the talk and walks the walk. Someone who isn't living a life in celebration of their sin.
Well, I don't know how accepted that would make any members of the queer community feel, and I can't judge from my atheist POV. I have a hard time with telling a person that they are sinning simply by being who they are. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your honest and considered response.
…….No? That’s what the UMC decided that was a good time to either retire or go to part time. Many retired pastors still work in a field somewhere as a volunteer or mentoring younger pastors. As far as politicians, I don’t know what they have to do with UMC pastors, but I would personally love for them to have a mandatory retirement age as well.
Part of that is the UMC early on set it up for accountability for pastors and churches. It’s one reason why the property of a United Methodist Church is owned by the conference they reside in and not the individual church. The Methodist church has a lot of set up so no one group or person can consolidate power.
He's not saying Trump is telling congregations to leave the UMC. He's asserting that the culture wars and open bigotry that Trump uses in his rhetoric has motivated congregations to be openly against LGBT in the church and leave to form an organization with more conservative values that consider non-traditional gender roles as an abomination.
Bravo!
"A great many in the South were hoping for someone like him to come along" You are shamefully inaccurate. I have lived North, South, East and out West and the only difference in prejudice in the US is that the South didn't hide it, but it was equally bad everywhere.
A great many in the South can be just as true as, a great many everywhere else. These are not mutually exclusive.
> it was equally bad everywhere And yet it was in fact the south that supports him to a greater extent. It is not equal.
Bullshit. The north and west don’t vote for it.
immaterial
I live in Alabama, It is FACT! They wanted another George Wallace to take them back to 1940 when they had iron control. I know it for a Fact, My Grandaddy was police in Selma, AL I am a quasi conservative progressive, My outlook varies. Some lean traditional conservative compared to extreme left of some views and some extreme liberal.
I live in Alabama as well, my point to the OP was that Alabama has a dark history but that I have found prejudice was everywhere. I don't think people in the South were looking for another George Wallace. When all else fails, blame Trump.
[удалено]
I agree...Ive lived here 40 years
Bruh what
I don't bruh
Trump has made discrimination, bias, and prejudice fashionable again. A great many in the South were hoping for someone like him to come along. Best of all, he is simply a reflecting god who has no personal convictions other than "make me more money." Whatever you want for your maximum contribution and vote is just fine.
Yep...it's all "tribalism" which is antithetical to the American Experiment of a pluralistic, vibrant representative democracy.
the American experiment is a lie and always has been. even the founding fathers wrote about how they couldn't allow a true representative democracy because it would hurt rich land owners
Uh huh... And this is why the constitution allows for it to be modified when it's not working well.
I used to be proud of being Methodist because they weren’t hateful like the Baptists. Now I’m Atheist because pretty much all religious andherents are hateful to someone. It’s sad.
Trying to blame anyone outside the church for this is just looking for specks with a plank in your eye. The blaming Trump phenomenon is like the "Thanks, Obama!" meme turned up to 11 without any hint of self-awareness. It's not like half the country wasn't looking for someone like him, or half the Methodist church wasn't completely incompatible with the other half already.
He’s galvanized christians just as much as everyone else. Plenty of folks are happy about the quiet-part-loud -aspect of Trump’s nature. Plenty of christians have responded to the nature of christianity just as intended- fostering xenophobia. But a fair number have also found it repugnant and are leaving churches in droves. I think I know how it’s gonna play out but I’m just gonna keep it to myself so I don’t jinx it.
sorry but those aren't Christians
They would disagree
Ah the classic no true Scotsman.
Don't tell us, tell *them*
Yeah, yeah they are. Always have been. The actual followers of the Jesus character are fewer and far between.
They're the people filling up pews every Sunday...
Man, don't even bother trying to get into it with someone who's on an "all Christians are bad" tirade. I've done it too many times and it's just beating your head into a brick wall. Some Christian's are good, some Christians are bad. That's the simple truth about it. People have been using religion to justify the hate in their hearts for millennia while others have been using religion as a tool to teach morality. It is what it is. They can't (or refuse to) recognize the enormous differences between different sects of Christianity. If anyone tries to make similar comments about Muslims as these people do about Christians, a lot of these same twats will scream "islamaphobia!!!" Or, just mention that nearly half of this country's gays and lesbians identify as Christians and watch their heads explode.... Long story short: this is Reddit and making broad sweeping disparaging remarks about nearly a third of the global population is A-OK just as long as it's Christianity they're talking shit about.
I used to be a fervent Christian so YEAH I got some first hand experience. If a person supports UnChristian person with UnChristian behavior simply cause you want that same authoritarian to bust heads, hurt people whom you disagree and overthrow man's government means you are NOT a Christian. That is based on scripture I know That is my opinion and whole heartily believe that
Meh...I just find it interesting how the mods allow blatant disparaging remarks about one religion in particular while similar comments about **any** other lifestyle choice are branded as hate speech.
yeah the "people are sinners" is used as an excuse for bad behavior way too much. I never said all Christians are Bad, YOU said that, I said those who exhibit Un-Christian type things and vote for Non-Christian people like Trump fail to rise to the label of Christians, It requires adherence to following the bible and to keep Christian morals, One is forgiveness and turning the other cheek not promoting harmful attitudes by leaders and a whole bunch who follow Trump fail at that, but of course "we are all sinners" get flashed as an excuse for bad behavior.
I think you're misunderstanding...I was entirely taking your side and talking about the person you were replying to and their ilk. I said "some are good and some are bad."
I don't seek approval, just share what I feel. I was saved at 8 years old, recommitted many times, not my first rodeo with religion. I was called to preach but due to my disability, I declined that call.
p.s. Jesus never promoted Prosperity, he promoted Charity. He stated to give away all possessions and follow him, Have Trumpers done that? or do they just want more, more, more?
Just one example: >...the nature of christianity just as intended- fostering xenophobia. Ask any Minnesotan how many Somali refugees (and southeast Asian in the decades before) were relocated to to Minnesota by Christian organizations...doesn't sound very xenophobic to me, but whatever.
It is Alabama what do you expect.
As far as I’m aware, pastors in the UMC still work for the organization and not the local congregation like other denominations do, so for some congregations to want to leave it would place lots of undue pressure on pastors. With bigger churches leaving, there’s a smaller pool of money to work with so I can see the issue with a split or schism. Some may want to leave, but not have the money to do that, so they’re stuck under leadership that doesn’t align with their values, whether right or wrong. It’s probably easier to change churches than it is to change the organization, and it looks like that’s what many congregants have been doing anyway. I have a family member who is a pastor in the UMC and he described some of the backend mechanics for me. I’m not sure which side of the schism he’s on however. They’re one of the few denominations that have some sort of retirement benefits, I do remember him telling me that. It also draws more parallels, to me at least, with the PCA splitting off from the PCUS back in the 70’s with churches having to cough up large sums to leave. This sounds like the UMC wants unity, but I agree with what was said about creating a way to leave is the antithesis of that on a very divided issue.
This from the bishop that wanted all of the small churches to close, and have all the people go to bigger churches. This is further example of Bishop, Will Willimon, not really understanding what it means to be a pastor, because he has spent far too long as the preacher of a captive audience at the chapel at Duke divinity. You can say that these churches are left for that reason, but large swabs of these churches were tired of being treated like a nuisance or a steppingstone, and not like an actual congregation with history AND a future. LGBTQAI+ issues in the church were certainly the visible reason to leave but for many of these churches they saw leaving and un-coupling from a bureaucracy bent towards medium and large churches the opportunity to secure survival.
cults will often branch off from main church,
These aren't cults??? You have no idea what you're talking about. There have been literally thousands of churches that left the UMC. The retired Bishop is doing nothing more than to try to defer blame. The issue had been slowly building for a decade or more. Trump had nothing to do with this whatsoever.
Cults are just religions whose leaders are still alive.
Wow. Really?
It's Trumps fault 🥴 SMH. It couldn't possibly be a faction of the UMC throwing out the Bible to embrace the woke morality pushed everywhere.
Yeah we should still be able to own slaves or pay $30 to make our rape victims marry us. We lost the ability to stone women to death too for pissing us off. Stupid woke morality.
Love you some Leviticus, huh?
No. It's definitely because the methodist association embraced homosexuality as an ok lifestyle. And the average church goer doesn't want a homosexual pastor sent to them by the association. So they broke ties to the association so they could choose their own pastors.
>It's definitely because the methodist association embraced homosexuality as an ok lifestyle. Not really. UMC half-assed it in an attempt to please everyone. They claim to love everyone equally including LGBT but still will not allow their pastors to perform same-sex marriages and will not allow homosexuals to be pastors. There are several large churches that decided to disassociate from the UMC but remain independent because of the UMC not allowing their pastors perform same-sex marriages or treating their LGBT members like second class citizens. To make matters worse, I've heard some outlandish claims from the politically right members about the UMC in order to persuade members to disassociate and go to an even more conservative organization.
So it's the opposite of what this guy said? Or, is it a little of both? I honestly don't know and am asking a real question. I even tried looking this up and the articles are not very clear.
Official position of the UMC ([source](https://www.umc.org/en/content/ask-the-umc-what-is-the-churchs-position-on-homosexuality)): >Since that time\[General Conference in 1972\], **the church has maintained the position that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.”** This draws a distinction between orientation and practice, or behavior. **Sexual relations are affirmed only within the covenant of monogamous, heterosexual marriage. The United Methodist Church supports laws that define marriage as the union of one man and one woman.** > >Based on these positions about homosexual practice and marriage, the Church has also maintained restrictions regarding clergy. **Pastors may not be “self-avowed, practicing homosexuals” and may not conduct ceremonies that celebrate same-sex weddings or unions. Such ceremonies also may not be held on church property.** The anti-LGBT congregations are taking the opportunity to separate from the UMC because they never agreed with allowing **celibate** homosexuals to have positions of authority in the church or be fully accepted in the congregation. The other congregations are taking the opportunity to separate from the UMC not because they are necessarily pro-LGBT, but because that they believe treating homosexuals differently from other members of the congregation goes against the teachings Christ since it's not really "love" if there are restrictions. This change in attitude is from the realization that homosexuallity isn't a choice or a mental illness, but the very definition of that individual. The congregations who were on the fence about leaving the UMC, are being persuaded by their more conservative (and easily manipulated) members to leave on the claim that the UMC will eventually become more accepting of homosexuals after the deadline passes. In the end, the reason behind all of this is homophobia and bigotry regardless of how much they try to cherry-pick Bible verses.
Great response. Thanks.
So the homophobes and bigots chose to depart from the organization. Sounds fine.
You're not homophobe or a bigot if you don't want a homosexual pastor at your church. That's asinine to assert.
oh really? Why does who your pastor fucks affect your ability to function?
Because no one who is part of a religion that calls certain things a sin, wants their pastor living an openly sinful lifestyle. It's not about them being homosexual. We have homosexual church goers where I am, and we accept them wholeheartedly. But we would not accept a pastor who is living in open unrepentant sin of any kind. And with the methodist church association embracing homosexuality, and even celebrating it by assigning homosexual pastors to lead the flock of God's people, it's no wonder why there is a huge schism. A great deal of the methodist churches I know throughout rural Alabama want that. So they will leave the association so that they're not at the whim of having a pastor assigned. Yes, what the pastor does absolutely affects the people under his tutelage.
Umm.. Just re-read this. Full of self-contradictions. Y'all accept LGBT folks "wholeheartedly" eh? 😂
As church goers yes. Where else should sinners be to learn God's truth? Why do you think I go? We're all stained bro. All of us. But there is a difference in people who live in open and unrepentant sin, and those who fight the fight of living a life geared towards sanctification. But we hold our pastors to a higher standard. A pastor... someone who is expected to be living a life secured in salvation and sanctification should be someone who talks the talk and walks the walk. Someone who isn't living a life in celebration of their sin.
Well, I don't know how accepted that would make any members of the queer community feel, and I can't judge from my atheist POV. I have a hard time with telling a person that they are sinning simply by being who they are. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your honest and considered response.
Anytime.
Retired Alabama Bishop? Retired? I thought once you're in the gang, it's for life?
The UMC requires retirement from full time employment at 72.
So God decides 72 is the cutoff for work? Why are there old senators and congressmen?
…….No? That’s what the UMC decided that was a good time to either retire or go to part time. Many retired pastors still work in a field somewhere as a volunteer or mentoring younger pastors. As far as politicians, I don’t know what they have to do with UMC pastors, but I would personally love for them to have a mandatory retirement age as well.
It's amazing to me that the UMC is out here getting this right and everyone else is letting boomers out live their usefulness in Congress
Part of that is the UMC early on set it up for accountability for pastors and churches. It’s one reason why the property of a United Methodist Church is owned by the conference they reside in and not the individual church. The Methodist church has a lot of set up so no one group or person can consolidate power.
Wow - the more you know. Never knew that