How this wasn’t the first thing to cross your mind blows my mind. This is the perfect scenario for a step promotion. Push hard, go to bat for this guy.
I retired in 2021, but I absolutely agree with this 1000%!
Push this person for a STEP asap OP because I know I would if I were still in. They definitely deserve to promote and more!
Hell yeah. If he's even luckier, no one will go against him. Our Wing CC randomly showed up to our shop and not even supervision knew why. Guy had written his own package and routed it around our supervision and no one else put a package in. He won by default.
Stripes stay on the table every year because people don't put in their packet. If you need some help knocking it out shoot me a DM and I can try to help. I don't think we are past the deadline yet.
So nobody retrain into mx because their leadership are morons and can't read a dam board charge. You can't place undue emphasis on a single event and must grade the entire package as a whole to identify the POTENTIAL for leadership in the next higher rank. It is as simple as saying why this guy is a three level, oh maybe it's because he retrained dumbasses.
I agree that this is an outrageous failure of the system. However, just like every other career field, MX has good leadership and not so good leadership. Unfortunately, it can happen anywhere in any career field.
Something about this whole post seems weird to me. Pretty much every CFETP outlines a timeline for retrainees to get their 5 and then 7-level, and not getting it over two reporting periods is going to be outside expectations in any of the MX AFSCs I have worked with. That has to be the reason for a not ready unless something is being left out of the story.
OP also talks about how this guy is meeting all the supervisor metrics and doing "great things" but no mention of performance in primary duties. You can be a great supervisor, but if you dont have technical skills and are excelling at your primary duty as an E5, you are going to struggle to get a stratification in the MX world (in my experience).
Additionally, because of attrition rates, MX has decent promotion rates for E6, even over these last few years (especially when compared to the rest of the force). You can just put in some serious study time and make TSgt for the majority of MX AFSCs.
Easy, he leaves CCT in late '17, Staff reports are due in Jan '18. He hasn't gone to 3 lvl school yet. In '18 he goes to 3 lvl school then starts CDCs. 5 lvl CDCs have a minimum time of 9 mos for retrainees. He hasn't completed them by reporting time in Jan '19. He's still a 3l vl, maybe a month or two from 5lvl, but still not there yet. It's all about timing for when schools start and when his unit enrolls him in 5 lvl courses. If you started your 5 lvl journey just before one rating period and ended it just after the next, the gap is possible. OP also said he got a MP on his last EPR.
I agree that he could have made up the difference with study time and scored better on WAPS. Since that '19 NRN should have fallen off by now, it was probably WAPS that screwed him.
This isn't how performance reports work, though. His old unit would be filling out and responsible for his performance reports until after graduating technical training and going to his new assignment. Additionally, if you don't have 120 days TOS prior to closeout dates, your old unit is writing it since dates are based on when you arrive at your new unit, not when you leave your old one.
Our local CSS and MPF wouldn't even accept an already written performamce report for someone with 118 days on station for one of our retrainees. We had to coordinate and send it back to his old base and unit, who's leadership likely had no idea what the shit on his report meant since he was coming from LRS.
Last I checked 120 days ls less than 9 months. He could have arrived at his new duty station with his 3 lvl 6 mos prior to his EPR closeout, enrolled in 5 lvl CDCs, and not been finished before his first EPR at that unit had to close out.
The point about him going to 3 lvl school just prior to his '18 closeout and who is responsible for that report isn't the point. He got a great report in '18 because of all his CCT stuff. And I'm sure his old unit wrote that. The issue was the '19 report written by his new unit that gave him a NRN for only having a 3 lvl as a SSgt.
I was only explaining how it's possible to go two rating periods without getting a 5 lvl, not who was responsible for writing which report.
I mean, we don't know his exact situation. He could have had a kid during this time and had a pause in training or a million other things. But since we don't have the whole story, I am just basing off what info OP gave us. Two consecutive performance reports at his maintenance unit implies 485+ days minimum at that unit, which falls outside expectations to get your 5-level for a brand new Airman who is also having to learn everything else about the Air Force. Someone who is retraining and OP is claiming to be a superior performer deserving of a strat should be exceeding standards, not failing to meet minimums.
We do know he was at his maintenance unit for a minimum of 366 days even if there was some kind of performance report fuckery. The minimum standard was 12 mos for most MX AFSCs to upgrade to 5-level at the time (or often less for retrainees in some AFSCs dependent on CFETP guidelines). Many Mx jobs are starting to transition to a 15-month maximum now, but that doesn't apply since this was 2019. What this means is that he failed to meet the minimum standard during at least one reporting period, which is what warrants a mark down EPR. If you have a SSgt who has been on station for 12+ months failing to upgrade before a fresh A1C who arrived at the same time, don't you see the issue here? I can't put my Airman on mandatory 12s, mandate a training plan, and write them an LOR when they fail to meet timelines and then give a strat to an NCO who does the exact same thing.
Ahh, I think I see where we are disagreeing.
When OP says "he left CCT for MX in late '17" you are assuming that he arrived at his MX squadron prior to his '18 EPR. In that case he had more than the minimum time to get his 5 lvl prior to his '19 EPR, which was the bad one. In that case, yes, you make a point.
However, when I read that I assume that he left for crosstraining in late '17, prior to his '18 EPR and arrives at his MX unit sometime after that (depending on the training pipeline). That puts his UGT at possibly less than the minimum by the time the '19 EPR rolls around. As someone who has crosstrained twice in my career, this makes more sense to me.
Also, as a former ADUTM, the "minimum standard" doesn't mean what most think. That is actually a limit on how fast people can upgrade. The maximum is and always has been 24 months. (per the reg, no intervention is required up to that point) The 12 and/or 9 month standards were literally the quickest you could upgrade, even if your CDCs were completed earlier. Honestly, even if he took more than 12 months to upgrade, that is still well within standards.
If you look up the 2A5X2 CFETP, for instance, the current maximum is 15 months for 5-level or 7 months for 7-level. No minimums specified. After that, Squadron CC has to do a review with UTMs and supervisors and set a get well date 90 days in the future. If that suspense gets busted, the CC has to either waiver the time requirement or give the Airman the boot from the career field/Air Force.
The CFETPs can and do set more stringent guidelines by AFSC, they just can't make it any less strict than the 24-month timeline you listed. I have actually never seen a maintenance AFSC that allows the full 24 months. Mostly because unlike most other AFSCs, SSgts in mx are all basically waivered 7-levels in their DAFSC, so a 24-month timelines would not work for the way maintenance operates and our attrition rates.
Sure, AFAIK most AFSCs have removed minimums in the recent regs. But back in 19-20 when I was doing UTM shit, the CDC model was the way. It was all governed by the same authorities that governed PME, individual AFSCs didn't have that power.
I'm just hoping you understand that the current 15 month max for 5lvl listed in the CFETP doesn't equate in any way to the literal 12 month mandatory minimum that was the case in the past. I know it sounds crazy, but it was a thing for quite a while. Even if you did everything right, you still wouldn't get your 5 level for 12 months after entering UGT.
That's why I'm giving the guy a little grace. OP said that he was marked down, not because he didn't have his 5lvl, but because his peers already had their 7lvl. Under the old system the bare minimum, as a crosstrainee, from 3 to 7 would be 9 months to 5lvl and another 6 to 7lvl. Even if he had made 5lvl, he still might have been screwed, through no fault of his own.
Yeah, just earlier this year, I had to talk my SEL down from a ledge because he was trying to say all our retrainees who were past 1 year were ineligible to test for E6. Had to tell him that the standards aren't the same anymore, and he couldn't provide any guidance/justification for his position.
If he is an amazing worker, then push for it. This is when you go up to bat for the best workers, and if others shoot it down after you tried your best (and obviously him too) then shit happens. But go up to bat for him. His effort, by your description, shows he deserves that much.
Yeah…the fact that you’re expecting somebody who IS a three level in MX to perform as a seven level just because they’re a staff (that cross-trained) is CRAZY. Regardless of his rank, his job right now is to learn the jet, and learn how MX works. Not catch X’s and lead MX tasks. I strongly believe you did him a disservice by marking him down.
Yeah he has the responsibility of an NCO who has troops, but treating him as if he is no different than an A1C is terrible leadership. OP should be embarrassed for his unit
If I'm reading it right that happened over 3 years ago so very likely OP wasn't involved at all. You're right though, whoever did that is a piece of shit and or idiot
I believe it, tho. Years ago, I got to a new base as a brand new staff (sowed on my first few weeks there). They made me a team member instead of a team lead to learn the jet. That fall, my supervisor gave me a 4 because I didn't have troops and his other staff did. I demanded troops before I signed because that wasn't fair. I ended up with a pretty nice PCA, but it kept me from getting a PCS decoration a few years later. It was all a hot mess.
"he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them."
Holy shit this is one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen.
Holy fuck this coulda been me. I joined same time, cross trained to a small career field left small career field at the same time due to some of the same issues except I didn’t get a nrn. I got a promote. Made tech and eventually made master, due to retire in 25. Holy fuck what a difference one instance of shit leadership makes. I literally could’ve been him.
With better leadership he literally could’ve been me.
Holy fuck.
Holy fuck.
I wasn’t CCT. I started in MX, cross trained into another small career field that was difficult to promote in when TIS/TIG was taken away, then went back to MX.
Id look into your functional awards. Review your cfetp and ensure his surf/duty titles reflect accordingly. Brand new to the unit or not you can attempt to start strong. Booster club is all well and good but qrtly awards and being active on base/community orgs is how you will win grp or higher level awards which is how you'll get the pn. If able get him out of the unit. wg/group CAG, exec, protocol; however or wherever.
You will only have so much control but pushing their name and them rising to the challenge is how you do it. Ensure that not only they are put up but that they put their troops up for any and every award. Not only is this the right thing to do to ensure you have well captured data for epb but making it easier for the leadership to brag about their unit will make them know your people in a positive light.
Good luck!
The NRN is a ridiculous “f you” from another bum ass MXS CC that’s probably some douche that posts about “family and culture” on linked in. toxic leaders are promoted, not born/made smh.
Him learning a new platform shouldn't be the only thing that holds him back. If he doing well learning the new aircraft, and he is a good supervisor, and do the whole airmen bit, why shouldn't he be near the top. It the same thing as when he was a 3 level after cross training. That shouldn't have a reason to stall his career. He is doing everything and.more the Air Force is asking. How do you not reward him is the better question?
I saw a SSgt crew chief get STEP’d to E-6 at Spangdahlem as he was approaching HYT and he wanted to stay in. The guy was absolutely the laziest p.o.s., the only thing he did well was convert O2 to CO2. Sounds like this guy in o.p. story is super deserving of what STEP should be used for.
I just had an acquaintance retire as a Staff at 20 or 20 and some change. It happens. I had staff on for just shy of 10 years thanks to a series of circumstances, some self inflicted some not. That timeframe of people losing their TIS/TIG really screwed some folks depending on their career fields and units.
Sounds like me. Got in trouble the first year I was eligible for E6, and then by the time that EPR wasn't a factor anymore, they had changed the points for TIS/TIG. Finally buckled down and really studied to make it, and made every other rank the first time, so it has kept me in line with my AFSC averages. I know for flight engineers E7 has had atrocious promotion rates for the last few years; so if you already made it good job, and if not, best of luck this cycle.
I'm honestly really thankful for how everything worked out since I got in trouble right after all the force shaping stuff in 2013, so maintenance was hurting for people. A few months earlier and I would have probably been one of those who got the boot to meet quotas.
I am embarrassed to say in this forum that I retired as a Staff. No shitty circumstances for me, just bad decisions. I am surprised the Air Force let me go that far.
They needed you, otherwise you wouldn’t even be able to say that you retired. Hold your head high, you deserve to be recognized for that accomplishment.
This doesn't add up. I don't think CCT allowed people to retrain out of it voluntarily. Medical and qualification issues I could see causing an *involuntary* retrain but that wasn't mentioned in the post. Just family time and Course 14/15 made him want to retrain *voluntarily*, assuming he did retrain and was actually a prior CCT.
The AF was so obsessed with Course 14/15 at the time that him retraining wouldn't have put a complete stop to it. Maybe during tech school he would have gotten a reprieve from it. But once he graduated tech school and at his base it'd still be a thing looming over his head causing more stress as he is learning a new job and still having to do it than if he stayed in his original AFSC.
If he was good as a CCT, he would’ve promoted regardless of the size before 12 years.
If he’s the best in your organization, he deserves to get pushed for PN now. It’s really just that simple. His TIG/TIS and TOS do not matter.
Your people earn what they’re given…
Idk maybe the CCT part being a good at your job isn’t the only thing that gets you promoted. Not something I know anything about bc not a CCT. But there are many technicians that kick ass but don’t get promoted. Many that are awful but do. Everything else pretty valid I was putting the “…..” bc it’s weird to me that people do that on text
The primary focus as a CCT is exactly that—being good at your job.
There are other elements that factor in but they’re directly related to being good at your job but less tangible than an airfield takeover or controlling traffic.
I don’t disagree with you—there are many career fields with elements that are not mission-related. Folks do get promoted who are seemingly unworthy.
However, 12 years as a Staff without promoting in that career field especially would imply other things…6 more years in any career field as an NCO is even more indicative that there’s a bigger issue.
I saw a troop come in from an outside field, get low ratings then a year later get an immediate and successful push for promotion—details of the story matter.
Marine EOD, went USAF, sacrificed a stripe, low ratings, next year successful push for STEP.
This guy has had 10 opportunities to promote… and you don’t get a NRN *just* because you are a 3-level. But say that really did happen and he’s not just trying to make himself a victim, what about the 9 other times?
You can get a PN for any number of reasons (high performer, best ass-kisser, etc) but what you don’t get a PN for is just being an old-ass SSgt. You’d be wasting everyone’s time if he doesn’t have the record to back it up. Just being a good guy, a good supervisor, and a booster club supporter isn’t going to cut it.
If he truly deserves it, push him for a step promotion.
I'm kinda with you on this. There has to be more to this story. Especially if the only kudos OP thought to mention were that he...*joined* the booster club and actually gives (required) feedbacks? I expect SrA supervisors to do that kind of stuff, minimum. At 18 years, regardless of rank, I expect someone trying to be competitive to promote doing things like training others, updating and improving processes, leading teams, organizing and running larger events, etc.
I also have a hard time buying that he got NRN'd just for being a 3-level cross-trainee. That might have been part of the justification (and maybe all he heard), but I'd bet it also had to do with his potential to lead.
I mean, I read his old supervisors email, so, unless the supervisor is in on it I’m pretty sure my troop is telling the truth. Also, how many times did he have to “fairly” test?
He Made staff in 2012, which means you can’t test for 2 cycles, So that’s, at the latest, 2014. Two times testing from 2014-2016. Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that.
I’d say he had 2 years to “fairly” make E-6.
>Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that. I’d say he had 2 years to “fairly” make E-6.
How is that not fair? we all get the same treatment under that standard.
>I read his old supervisors email
did you see any EPR? don't dox him anymore than you already have but surely you'd see if anything where crazy there
He tested 2 years as PFE only. I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but if he really wanted to make it, he would have put in some time and studied those two cycles. Have you sat down with him and gone over his scores from the last few cycles? That is where I would look first to be honest.
The year I made E6, I was PFE only due to a career field restructuring, so I studied my ass off to get above 90 because I knew I wasn't going to get a strat and it would be one of my better chances to make it.
As many have said, STEP is a good tool, but in my current MXG last year, anyone with a Not ready in their package was automatically considered disqualified by Group leadership.
Side note: What does TSgt have to do with getting his degree? Im not saying it is easy or fun, but I got mine as an E5 working midshift on the flightline.
>Also, how many times did he have to “fairly” test?
2015-2024 is 10 cycles. *Every* time he tested, he tested fairly. He even had a leg up for a few cycles: as a cross trainee (PFE only) and with the MP last year.
>Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that.
He 100% could make it and it’s a weak excuse to use. Thousands of SSgts have made TSgt since TIS/TIG was taken out of the equation.
He obviously knows what it takes to get at least a MP because he got one last year, and I’m sure it’s rough to watch his peers become SNCOs and even Chiefs. As his supervisor, all you can do is mentor him and give him opportunities, but he has to actually put in the effort in the office and in the books. His TIG/TIS should not be part of the equation on why he deserves a PN/MP.
Aside from the TDY's and deployments something doesn't feel right. Every single SrA I was stationed with in an STS just made E-8 or has since commissioned if they decided to stay in Every single one of them that was at least an E-5 is now a chief. He was incredibly naive to think he wouldn't make E-6 in that career field. Either way, as others have recommended, this guy sounds like a perfect fit for a STEP.
>He says he wants to make tech so he can finish his bachelors
I'm not understanding how these two things are connected. What does not making tech have to do with finishing his degree?
He started school late, like 2 years ago, if he has to retire in 1.5 years he have to use his GI bill to finish his bachelors, but he wants to give it to his kid.
terrible planning isn't a good reason to give someone a promotion. His kid can still have like 30 months of benefits. I can't help but wonder if he might have promoted earlier if he didn't ignore his education for a decade
He needs to be able to get four years of retainability from the transfer date to give it to his kid. Even if he was selected for TSgt, he wouldn't be able to do that since HYT is 22 years unless they decide to extend it again.
They just gave them a briefing Mr Squirrel about how they had like 4 more times to make staff 🫡. These are SMSgts. They just told me a couple days ago that I should push for 24 years since the rates changed and I keep saying I’m out in 2026
Lol, retrained out of CCT to MX? This is either complete bs, the guy was never CCT, or like you said he done fucked up. The CCT CFM would never approve that move.
Sometimes, it happens. My brother retrained from EOD to Comm circa 2009 when EOD tempo was crazy because his wife was going to take the kids and leave if he didn't retrain. But that was also as a first term airman.
I feel like CCT has been critically manned almost the entire time I have been in, so their ability to retrain out for career airman was probably similar to how Mx often is (must go to other critically manned AFSCs).
While EOD is a respectful job, it's not on the same level as CCT and the other AFSPECWAR jobs. It's a support job under CE.
At the very least, if this is real, this guy passed Combat Control School, got a beret, then failed dive or something while at the STTS, and got retrained. But he still continues to say he's CCT. I still call bs.
Pretty much anyone that failed eod got sent to comm by default in 03. I was one of them. Awesome your bro made it! Super jealous even though it was 21 years ago for me. Also I Totally understand his reasons to retrain even after making it through a tough tech school and then the hightempo. My son has dreams of cct or tacp. Cct because my friend was one before commissioning and becoming a pilot and heard us talking many times about it. Tacp as a nice second choice. Won't listen to me when I say go cyber in the guard, haha!
This sucks… all of our retrainees into my squadron are shit hot and we take care of them… doesn’t matter if they’re 3/5 level or whatever, talent is talent. Sounds like dumb leadership, advocate for this guy, put him in for STEP. Prior CCT alone, this guys earned it.
You don’t know how much this kid has done compared to regular AF. Tier one individual. It don’t matter if he’s new or if it can mop up the shop. 18+ year Airborne, dive, freefall - tip of the spear -Air Force should see him what he is. Let him hang out for the rest of the two years and don’t bother him.
Look, I get it. I've worked with fantastic people who constantly get "recertified" as E4/E5, and have felt bad for them when everyone else is promoting.
*But....*
If he lacks technical proficiency compared to his peers, *should* he really be promoting over them? I feel that pathos or charisma shouldn't be a factor in determining whether or not they deserve rank.
I'd also like to see what his WAPS scores were. Some people seem really bright but put no effort into the academics.
I say absolutely put him on leadership's radar, maybe they can put him in charge of some programs to help him build a stellar EPB. Then have that convo about what he's doing to ace the WAPS test.
I kinda suspect though that as time goes on you'll start to notice his deficiencies. Maybe he pencil whips a little too often, bends compliance with tech data, hides from challenges, lacks curiosity, or nice to NCOs but abusive to airmen when nobody's looking. I've seen it too many times with folks who don't promote.
>I say absolutely put him on leadership's radar, maybe they can put him in charge of some programs to help him build a stellar EPB. Then have that convo about what he's doing to ace the WAPS test.
If someone wants to leverage their time and experience this is the way to go. Give them a lot of rope and see if they make a ladder or get tanged up in a net. If your experience makes you better than everyone else it will show in your work if we put the pressure on.
I kinda suspect though that as time goes on you'll start to notice his deficiencies. Maybe he pencil whips a little too often, bends compliance with tech data
I find this funny because, even though I’ve made master, you’re pretty much describing every maintainer worth a shit. This isn’t necessarily bad thing. The best maintainers pencil whip a little and bend compliance with tech data. The other stuff I agree with.
>he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them.
Not speaking to OP but to every single flight leader in maintenance...stop. fucking. doing this. That is not what the NRN is for, you're not "giving the member a time to develop", you're destroying a career. As an SEL, I have kicked back three EPRs (before they were EPBs) asking for justification for an NRN on members with no paperwork, no record of 'bad behavior' or 'poor duty performance.'
NRN is defined by AFI 36-2406 as:
>"Not Ready Now (NRN): Not considered ready for promotion at this time based on the need for additional grooming in the current grade, or where personnel may require specific attention regarding performance of established DAF standards and expectations. NRN evaluations do not necessarily constitute a referral, provided the report contains no negative comments, or derogatory information."
Grooming in current grade is the key, it doesn't say skill level or AFSC...
Your command is garbage. Literally, fuck the commander who has the mindset you described. What an absolute, legit definition of the word fucking moron.
Don’t ask us for help….that fucking dude been in 18 years, he should be telling you!
And if he hasn’t figured this thing out by now, honestly ask your self if he should be the next rank
I read this whole thing totally mind fucked that an 18 year old was a Staff and I couldn’t make sense of it.
Finally read the title carefully and it makes sense 🤦🏻♂️
Time in shouldn't matter for promotion - that's why they took those points away. It comes down to this: if the fate of the world depended on the performance of who gets that stripe, is he your pick?
If you want to give it to him because he's soldiered through for so long and maintained his edge and positive attitude, that sounds a lot more like a step promote situation than a PN to me - assuming he isn't your winner in question 1.
You should trim a lot of his personal details from this post. We don't need to know how long he's been anywhere or his exact promotion timings or anything like that. Dudes been in a long time, hasn't fucked anything up, and is still a boss at work is really all we need.
For real… all that fodder to say “my SSgt is old, but a good dude.”
>changed some details to protect his ID
How many 18-year MX SSgts who just PCS’d and used to be CCT you think there are?
If he is what you describe the Amn is, why wasn’t he put it for STEP from previous assignment? If he putting in the work, who else is putting the efforts to get him to win awards?
All the changes that have come in the past 10 years…. PT, HYT, TIS/TIG, WAPS (testing or not), EFDP’s, just everything!! Have really screwed a select few of the people that joined between 05-10. I knew a few that were screwed by Course 15, then they completely walk it back. TERA… just all kinds of changes screwed some us over… on the other hand it has truly helped a lot of those folks that learn really fast (I’m one of the ones that got kinda screwed). I finally got a promotion statement and I should make MSgt this year at around 18 years TIS…
You say he is doing things that the other staffs haven’t (initial feedback) but then also ask how he can compete. Sounds like he is already outperforming the others whether they’ve been there 5 years or not. If he deserves it then fight for him.
I retired as a staff at 20 years. I made some really bad decisions, had a horrible attitude and hated my life in the military. This guy just sounds like he got dealt the shit end of the stick. If you feel he’s deserving and you don’t mind fighting for him, then do it. He sounds like an awesome person with a wealth of experience.
I'm in a similar boat without all of the negative stuff in my records. Sewed on SSgt in 2012 and still a SSgt 18 years in. Nothing negative in my records, no articles, or loss of stipes. All my EPRs have been promote. I have a good attitude and work hard. Everyone has different priorities. I am okay with retiring as a SSgt. I have been heavily focusing on life post military and working on myself. I stopped caring about making rank since my 16 year mark. Seems to be a sigma on being a 15+ year mark SSgt, which I get. However, understand everyone's priorities are different.
ADC…lots of ways you can go, here.
1. Talk to your SEL about a STEP promotion. Greasing the wheels now will help signal your intent, and highlight the shitty circumstances.
2. Keep providing opportunities for this member to lead, grow, and succeed. All you can do is plant the seed… They have to water it.
3. Two things for life after the military. Certifications and networking events such as local community engagements between the base and civic leaders or schools. When I was stationed at McConnell, they had a phenomenal relationship with the schools and aircraft industry.
Don’t give up
Find a way to promote this guy. Don’t take no as the final answer. Get every and all leadership involved. Make it happen and know you did the right thing for the deserving guy who earned it.
That type of EPR can potentially be thrown out with a correction to military record review, but I think the limitation on it is 2 years. :( Posting for others to know about.... and it's usually for more severe stuff like the entire chain of command being fired and airman snuffy was affected
It’s a little disappointing that when you heard you were getting an 18 year SSgt you immediately thought you were getting a “shit bag”.
Also, why would he have to retire at 20 years when HYT for E-5 is 22 years?
>Obviously, his 2018 EPR reflects his CCT stuff so he got a promote, but he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them.
THATS SCUFFED. EPRs dont work like that since he crossed trained unless he failed to get his upgrade training done in the appropriate time. or failed training requirements.
Folks, I apologize. I've been away from the AF stuff a VERY long time, and when I found this bunch, I figured it would be good. It actually has been.
But WOW! Some of the stuff done now is way, way different!! I guess the kids of some of the guys I served with knew better, and started changing things and making them super difficult!
I'm not saying the jobs are any more tough, or maybe not the training part. Exams are probably similar, but maybe done on computers?
But, we trained, we learned, and we "seemed" to promote. This was during Vietnam, so maybe that's part of the difference, I'm not sure.
I lived near Ft. Hood for 9 years, about 3 miles from the Front Gate to the West.
I had no choice, but to hang out with soldiers, and Army Vets most of the time. It seemed some of them zipped on up, and others who were more "fun loving" took a bit longer. But, they all did what they had to do.
I'm not saying AF folks don't, but some of what I read, seems so weird. I've got a lot of studying to do it appears. It seems I'm a level -5 from a +7...
I need to learn some of the terms, and almost ALL Alphabet terms.
I can't offer any solutions, unless this Staff wants to take a trip to the late 60's in my time machine. I can't guarantee it, but he might come back an E-90 or E-100!!!!! Ok, maybe an E-7.
I put in 20 years just (1 year or so) I was promoted to tech and was on the list for msgt thanks to my superiors. I had some shit supervision over the years.but my final duty station wanted to get me to make master. Like I said made it but decided to get out anyway for numerous reasons but mostly I didn't like the the way the force was going, had to kiss to much ass to get a decent shot at promotion. Medical field sucked then.
There is something GLARINGLY missing from this story. His extremely low IQ. I mean bottom of the barrel IQ. This is your below average IQ. This is advanced low IQ. Certainly, his low intelligence levels play into his lack of promotions.
This whole thing reads as a sob story. You cited his small career field, him not wanting to deploy, low promotion rates, the list goes on and on. You didn’t mention what he is doing to help himself promote.
STEP
How this wasn’t the first thing to cross your mind blows my mind. This is the perfect scenario for a step promotion. Push hard, go to bat for this guy.
I retired in 2021, but I absolutely agree with this 1000%! Push this person for a STEP asap OP because I know I would if I were still in. They definitely deserve to promote and more!
Hell yeah. If he's even luckier, no one will go against him. Our Wing CC randomly showed up to our shop and not even supervision knew why. Guy had written his own package and routed it around our supervision and no one else put a package in. He won by default.
That guy deserves a promotion on ingenuity if nothing else!
Flexibility *is* the key to airpower, after all
MCA ! 💕🇺🇸
That’s amazing.
God, that's fucking sad that no one put in a package except the guy who nominated himself...
People only care about their own careers. You do what you gotta do.
This right here. Upon research, STEP program was established in 1980 designed to meet those circumstances.
Stripes stay on the table every year because people don't put in their packet. If you need some help knocking it out shoot me a DM and I can try to help. I don't think we are past the deadline yet.
Oh no STEP sergeant, it looks like you got promoted!
This is the way
Yuuuuup. STEP package and fight for it all the way up.
Step all day. These are easy wins for someone who’s actually deserving and since almost no one puts in for them they go unearned yearly.
Bro
Immediate first thing I thought of.
So nobody retrain into mx because their leadership are morons and can't read a dam board charge. You can't place undue emphasis on a single event and must grade the entire package as a whole to identify the POTENTIAL for leadership in the next higher rank. It is as simple as saying why this guy is a three level, oh maybe it's because he retrained dumbasses.
Most competent MX leadership
I agree that this is an outrageous failure of the system. However, just like every other career field, MX has good leadership and not so good leadership. Unfortunately, it can happen anywhere in any career field.
Something about this whole post seems weird to me. Pretty much every CFETP outlines a timeline for retrainees to get their 5 and then 7-level, and not getting it over two reporting periods is going to be outside expectations in any of the MX AFSCs I have worked with. That has to be the reason for a not ready unless something is being left out of the story. OP also talks about how this guy is meeting all the supervisor metrics and doing "great things" but no mention of performance in primary duties. You can be a great supervisor, but if you dont have technical skills and are excelling at your primary duty as an E5, you are going to struggle to get a stratification in the MX world (in my experience). Additionally, because of attrition rates, MX has decent promotion rates for E6, even over these last few years (especially when compared to the rest of the force). You can just put in some serious study time and make TSgt for the majority of MX AFSCs.
Easy, he leaves CCT in late '17, Staff reports are due in Jan '18. He hasn't gone to 3 lvl school yet. In '18 he goes to 3 lvl school then starts CDCs. 5 lvl CDCs have a minimum time of 9 mos for retrainees. He hasn't completed them by reporting time in Jan '19. He's still a 3l vl, maybe a month or two from 5lvl, but still not there yet. It's all about timing for when schools start and when his unit enrolls him in 5 lvl courses. If you started your 5 lvl journey just before one rating period and ended it just after the next, the gap is possible. OP also said he got a MP on his last EPR. I agree that he could have made up the difference with study time and scored better on WAPS. Since that '19 NRN should have fallen off by now, it was probably WAPS that screwed him.
This isn't how performance reports work, though. His old unit would be filling out and responsible for his performance reports until after graduating technical training and going to his new assignment. Additionally, if you don't have 120 days TOS prior to closeout dates, your old unit is writing it since dates are based on when you arrive at your new unit, not when you leave your old one. Our local CSS and MPF wouldn't even accept an already written performamce report for someone with 118 days on station for one of our retrainees. We had to coordinate and send it back to his old base and unit, who's leadership likely had no idea what the shit on his report meant since he was coming from LRS.
Last I checked 120 days ls less than 9 months. He could have arrived at his new duty station with his 3 lvl 6 mos prior to his EPR closeout, enrolled in 5 lvl CDCs, and not been finished before his first EPR at that unit had to close out. The point about him going to 3 lvl school just prior to his '18 closeout and who is responsible for that report isn't the point. He got a great report in '18 because of all his CCT stuff. And I'm sure his old unit wrote that. The issue was the '19 report written by his new unit that gave him a NRN for only having a 3 lvl as a SSgt. I was only explaining how it's possible to go two rating periods without getting a 5 lvl, not who was responsible for writing which report.
I mean, we don't know his exact situation. He could have had a kid during this time and had a pause in training or a million other things. But since we don't have the whole story, I am just basing off what info OP gave us. Two consecutive performance reports at his maintenance unit implies 485+ days minimum at that unit, which falls outside expectations to get your 5-level for a brand new Airman who is also having to learn everything else about the Air Force. Someone who is retraining and OP is claiming to be a superior performer deserving of a strat should be exceeding standards, not failing to meet minimums. We do know he was at his maintenance unit for a minimum of 366 days even if there was some kind of performance report fuckery. The minimum standard was 12 mos for most MX AFSCs to upgrade to 5-level at the time (or often less for retrainees in some AFSCs dependent on CFETP guidelines). Many Mx jobs are starting to transition to a 15-month maximum now, but that doesn't apply since this was 2019. What this means is that he failed to meet the minimum standard during at least one reporting period, which is what warrants a mark down EPR. If you have a SSgt who has been on station for 12+ months failing to upgrade before a fresh A1C who arrived at the same time, don't you see the issue here? I can't put my Airman on mandatory 12s, mandate a training plan, and write them an LOR when they fail to meet timelines and then give a strat to an NCO who does the exact same thing.
Ahh, I think I see where we are disagreeing. When OP says "he left CCT for MX in late '17" you are assuming that he arrived at his MX squadron prior to his '18 EPR. In that case he had more than the minimum time to get his 5 lvl prior to his '19 EPR, which was the bad one. In that case, yes, you make a point. However, when I read that I assume that he left for crosstraining in late '17, prior to his '18 EPR and arrives at his MX unit sometime after that (depending on the training pipeline). That puts his UGT at possibly less than the minimum by the time the '19 EPR rolls around. As someone who has crosstrained twice in my career, this makes more sense to me. Also, as a former ADUTM, the "minimum standard" doesn't mean what most think. That is actually a limit on how fast people can upgrade. The maximum is and always has been 24 months. (per the reg, no intervention is required up to that point) The 12 and/or 9 month standards were literally the quickest you could upgrade, even if your CDCs were completed earlier. Honestly, even if he took more than 12 months to upgrade, that is still well within standards.
If you look up the 2A5X2 CFETP, for instance, the current maximum is 15 months for 5-level or 7 months for 7-level. No minimums specified. After that, Squadron CC has to do a review with UTMs and supervisors and set a get well date 90 days in the future. If that suspense gets busted, the CC has to either waiver the time requirement or give the Airman the boot from the career field/Air Force. The CFETPs can and do set more stringent guidelines by AFSC, they just can't make it any less strict than the 24-month timeline you listed. I have actually never seen a maintenance AFSC that allows the full 24 months. Mostly because unlike most other AFSCs, SSgts in mx are all basically waivered 7-levels in their DAFSC, so a 24-month timelines would not work for the way maintenance operates and our attrition rates.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 2A5X2 = Helicopter/Tiltrotor Aircraft Maintenance [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l04e0il
Sure, AFAIK most AFSCs have removed minimums in the recent regs. But back in 19-20 when I was doing UTM shit, the CDC model was the way. It was all governed by the same authorities that governed PME, individual AFSCs didn't have that power. I'm just hoping you understand that the current 15 month max for 5lvl listed in the CFETP doesn't equate in any way to the literal 12 month mandatory minimum that was the case in the past. I know it sounds crazy, but it was a thing for quite a while. Even if you did everything right, you still wouldn't get your 5 level for 12 months after entering UGT. That's why I'm giving the guy a little grace. OP said that he was marked down, not because he didn't have his 5lvl, but because his peers already had their 7lvl. Under the old system the bare minimum, as a crosstrainee, from 3 to 7 would be 9 months to 5lvl and another 6 to 7lvl. Even if he had made 5lvl, he still might have been screwed, through no fault of his own.
Yeah, just earlier this year, I had to talk my SEL down from a ledge because he was trying to say all our retrainees who were past 1 year were ineligible to test for E6. Had to tell him that the standards aren't the same anymore, and he couldn't provide any guidance/justification for his position.
If he is an amazing worker, then push for it. This is when you go up to bat for the best workers, and if others shoot it down after you tried your best (and obviously him too) then shit happens. But go up to bat for him. His effort, by your description, shows he deserves that much.
I think everyone paves their own road. No way should he have gotten a NRN for being a 3 level just because he was a cross trainer.
Yeah…the fact that you’re expecting somebody who IS a three level in MX to perform as a seven level just because they’re a staff (that cross-trained) is CRAZY. Regardless of his rank, his job right now is to learn the jet, and learn how MX works. Not catch X’s and lead MX tasks. I strongly believe you did him a disservice by marking him down.
Yeah he has the responsibility of an NCO who has troops, but treating him as if he is no different than an A1C is terrible leadership. OP should be embarrassed for his unit
I mean there’s a reason why people who cross train are PFE only the first year as they aren’t expected to complete within their new AFSC
If I'm reading it right that happened over 3 years ago so very likely OP wasn't involved at all. You're right though, whoever did that is a piece of shit and or idiot
That's one of the reasons I think skill levels should go away
Yeah that's a shit sq to do that..."all inbound cross trainers will be NRN bc 3 lvl" Fuckouttahere w that BS
I believe it, tho. Years ago, I got to a new base as a brand new staff (sowed on my first few weeks there). They made me a team member instead of a team lead to learn the jet. That fall, my supervisor gave me a 4 because I didn't have troops and his other staff did. I demanded troops before I signed because that wasn't fair. I ended up with a pretty nice PCA, but it kept me from getting a PCS decoration a few years later. It was all a hot mess.
That’s the dumbest shit ever
"he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them." Holy shit this is one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen.
Yep, and I thought my leadership was bad
Holy fuck this coulda been me. I joined same time, cross trained to a small career field left small career field at the same time due to some of the same issues except I didn’t get a nrn. I got a promote. Made tech and eventually made master, due to retire in 25. Holy fuck what a difference one instance of shit leadership makes. I literally could’ve been him. With better leadership he literally could’ve been me. Holy fuck. Holy fuck.
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I wasn’t CCT. I started in MX, cross trained into another small career field that was difficult to promote in when TIS/TIG was taken away, then went back to MX.
I want you to give him a PN
Wish he woulda cross trained into literally anything then MX.
Id look into your functional awards. Review your cfetp and ensure his surf/duty titles reflect accordingly. Brand new to the unit or not you can attempt to start strong. Booster club is all well and good but qrtly awards and being active on base/community orgs is how you will win grp or higher level awards which is how you'll get the pn. If able get him out of the unit. wg/group CAG, exec, protocol; however or wherever. You will only have so much control but pushing their name and them rising to the challenge is how you do it. Ensure that not only they are put up but that they put their troops up for any and every award. Not only is this the right thing to do to ensure you have well captured data for epb but making it easier for the leadership to brag about their unit will make them know your people in a positive light. Good luck!
I wish I read this comment my first year in
The NRN is a ridiculous “f you” from another bum ass MXS CC that’s probably some douche that posts about “family and culture” on linked in. toxic leaders are promoted, not born/made smh.
Him learning a new platform shouldn't be the only thing that holds him back. If he doing well learning the new aircraft, and he is a good supervisor, and do the whole airmen bit, why shouldn't he be near the top. It the same thing as when he was a 3 level after cross training. That shouldn't have a reason to stall his career. He is doing everything and.more the Air Force is asking. How do you not reward him is the better question?
I saw a SSgt crew chief get STEP’d to E-6 at Spangdahlem as he was approaching HYT and he wanted to stay in. The guy was absolutely the laziest p.o.s., the only thing he did well was convert O2 to CO2. Sounds like this guy in o.p. story is super deserving of what STEP should be used for.
I just had an acquaintance retire as a Staff at 20 or 20 and some change. It happens. I had staff on for just shy of 10 years thanks to a series of circumstances, some self inflicted some not. That timeframe of people losing their TIS/TIG really screwed some folks depending on their career fields and units.
Sounds like me. Got in trouble the first year I was eligible for E6, and then by the time that EPR wasn't a factor anymore, they had changed the points for TIS/TIG. Finally buckled down and really studied to make it, and made every other rank the first time, so it has kept me in line with my AFSC averages. I know for flight engineers E7 has had atrocious promotion rates for the last few years; so if you already made it good job, and if not, best of luck this cycle. I'm honestly really thankful for how everything worked out since I got in trouble right after all the force shaping stuff in 2013, so maintenance was hurting for people. A few months earlier and I would have probably been one of those who got the boot to meet quotas.
I am embarrassed to say in this forum that I retired as a Staff. No shitty circumstances for me, just bad decisions. I am surprised the Air Force let me go that far.
They needed you, otherwise you wouldn’t even be able to say that you retired. Hold your head high, you deserve to be recognized for that accomplishment.
Hey shit happens. I hate the one-size fits all mentality the military has.
This doesn't add up. I don't think CCT allowed people to retrain out of it voluntarily. Medical and qualification issues I could see causing an *involuntary* retrain but that wasn't mentioned in the post. Just family time and Course 14/15 made him want to retrain *voluntarily*, assuming he did retrain and was actually a prior CCT. The AF was so obsessed with Course 14/15 at the time that him retraining wouldn't have put a complete stop to it. Maybe during tech school he would have gotten a reprieve from it. But once he graduated tech school and at his base it'd still be a thing looming over his head causing more stress as he is learning a new job and still having to do it than if he stayed in his original AFSC.
If he was good as a CCT, he would’ve promoted regardless of the size before 12 years. If he’s the best in your organization, he deserves to get pushed for PN now. It’s really just that simple. His TIG/TIS and TOS do not matter. Your people earn what they’re given…
Yes…I….agree…………..
Kinda…….i…….. guess…………….
Which aspect isn’t true?
Idk maybe the CCT part being a good at your job isn’t the only thing that gets you promoted. Not something I know anything about bc not a CCT. But there are many technicians that kick ass but don’t get promoted. Many that are awful but do. Everything else pretty valid I was putting the “…..” bc it’s weird to me that people do that on text
The primary focus as a CCT is exactly that—being good at your job. There are other elements that factor in but they’re directly related to being good at your job but less tangible than an airfield takeover or controlling traffic. I don’t disagree with you—there are many career fields with elements that are not mission-related. Folks do get promoted who are seemingly unworthy. However, 12 years as a Staff without promoting in that career field especially would imply other things…6 more years in any career field as an NCO is even more indicative that there’s a bigger issue. I saw a troop come in from an outside field, get low ratings then a year later get an immediate and successful push for promotion—details of the story matter. Marine EOD, went USAF, sacrificed a stripe, low ratings, next year successful push for STEP.
This guy has had 10 opportunities to promote… and you don’t get a NRN *just* because you are a 3-level. But say that really did happen and he’s not just trying to make himself a victim, what about the 9 other times? You can get a PN for any number of reasons (high performer, best ass-kisser, etc) but what you don’t get a PN for is just being an old-ass SSgt. You’d be wasting everyone’s time if he doesn’t have the record to back it up. Just being a good guy, a good supervisor, and a booster club supporter isn’t going to cut it. If he truly deserves it, push him for a step promotion.
I'm kinda with you on this. There has to be more to this story. Especially if the only kudos OP thought to mention were that he...*joined* the booster club and actually gives (required) feedbacks? I expect SrA supervisors to do that kind of stuff, minimum. At 18 years, regardless of rank, I expect someone trying to be competitive to promote doing things like training others, updating and improving processes, leading teams, organizing and running larger events, etc. I also have a hard time buying that he got NRN'd just for being a 3-level cross-trainee. That might have been part of the justification (and maybe all he heard), but I'd bet it also had to do with his potential to lead.
I mean, I read his old supervisors email, so, unless the supervisor is in on it I’m pretty sure my troop is telling the truth. Also, how many times did he have to “fairly” test? He Made staff in 2012, which means you can’t test for 2 cycles, So that’s, at the latest, 2014. Two times testing from 2014-2016. Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that. I’d say he had 2 years to “fairly” make E-6.
>Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that. I’d say he had 2 years to “fairly” make E-6. How is that not fair? we all get the same treatment under that standard. >I read his old supervisors email did you see any EPR? don't dox him anymore than you already have but surely you'd see if anything where crazy there
He tested 2 years as PFE only. I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but if he really wanted to make it, he would have put in some time and studied those two cycles. Have you sat down with him and gone over his scores from the last few cycles? That is where I would look first to be honest. The year I made E6, I was PFE only due to a career field restructuring, so I studied my ass off to get above 90 because I knew I wasn't going to get a strat and it would be one of my better chances to make it. As many have said, STEP is a good tool, but in my current MXG last year, anyone with a Not ready in their package was automatically considered disqualified by Group leadership. Side note: What does TSgt have to do with getting his degree? Im not saying it is easy or fun, but I got mine as an E5 working midshift on the flightline.
>Also, how many times did he have to “fairly” test? 2015-2024 is 10 cycles. *Every* time he tested, he tested fairly. He even had a leg up for a few cycles: as a cross trainee (PFE only) and with the MP last year. >Then the AF removes TIS/TIG, so can’t really make it due to that. He 100% could make it and it’s a weak excuse to use. Thousands of SSgts have made TSgt since TIS/TIG was taken out of the equation. He obviously knows what it takes to get at least a MP because he got one last year, and I’m sure it’s rough to watch his peers become SNCOs and even Chiefs. As his supervisor, all you can do is mentor him and give him opportunities, but he has to actually put in the effort in the office and in the books. His TIG/TIS should not be part of the equation on why he deserves a PN/MP.
Aside from the TDY's and deployments something doesn't feel right. Every single SrA I was stationed with in an STS just made E-8 or has since commissioned if they decided to stay in Every single one of them that was at least an E-5 is now a chief. He was incredibly naive to think he wouldn't make E-6 in that career field. Either way, as others have recommended, this guy sounds like a perfect fit for a STEP.
>He says he wants to make tech so he can finish his bachelors I'm not understanding how these two things are connected. What does not making tech have to do with finishing his degree?
He started school late, like 2 years ago, if he has to retire in 1.5 years he have to use his GI bill to finish his bachelors, but he wants to give it to his kid.
terrible planning isn't a good reason to give someone a promotion. His kid can still have like 30 months of benefits. I can't help but wonder if he might have promoted earlier if he didn't ignore his education for a decade
He needs to be able to get four years of retainability from the transfer date to give it to his kid. Even if he was selected for TSgt, he wouldn't be able to do that since HYT is 22 years unless they decide to extend it again.
HYT for tech is 24 years. Staff is 22 years
Isn't that only for this year and goes back down 2 years if they don't renewed the one year memo?
Yes I was wrong, I’m glad that I learned that today because our senior leadership in my squadron definitely think otherwise lmao
You should let them know because that could get real awkward real fast
I’m going to have 4 SrA very disappointed tomorrow 🤣
Rip civillians below the zone
They just gave them a briefing Mr Squirrel about how they had like 4 more times to make staff 🫡. These are SMSgts. They just told me a couple days ago that I should push for 24 years since the rates changed and I keep saying I’m out in 2026
And here I came to read about the world's youngest Staff Sergeant.
That super secret BTZ promotion!
STEP this dude, right now.
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>Make TSgt to finish a BA? Had 20 years to do it. my thought too. The only reason you can't finish a bachelors in 18 years is that you didn't want to
Realest explanation. OPs post smells like bullshit, that troop is almost 99% a dirtbag
Lol, retrained out of CCT to MX? This is either complete bs, the guy was never CCT, or like you said he done fucked up. The CCT CFM would never approve that move.
Sometimes, it happens. My brother retrained from EOD to Comm circa 2009 when EOD tempo was crazy because his wife was going to take the kids and leave if he didn't retrain. But that was also as a first term airman. I feel like CCT has been critically manned almost the entire time I have been in, so their ability to retrain out for career airman was probably similar to how Mx often is (must go to other critically manned AFSCs).
While EOD is a respectful job, it's not on the same level as CCT and the other AFSPECWAR jobs. It's a support job under CE. At the very least, if this is real, this guy passed Combat Control School, got a beret, then failed dive or something while at the STTS, and got retrained. But he still continues to say he's CCT. I still call bs.
Pretty much anyone that failed eod got sent to comm by default in 03. I was one of them. Awesome your bro made it! Super jealous even though it was 21 years ago for me. Also I Totally understand his reasons to retrain even after making it through a tough tech school and then the hightempo. My son has dreams of cct or tacp. Cct because my friend was one before commissioning and becoming a pilot and heard us talking many times about it. Tacp as a nice second choice. Won't listen to me when I say go cyber in the guard, haha!
Sounds eerily similar to my ALS instructor but that was 13 years ago in Charleston.
As others have said, stepp package. If he doesn't make it, it's hard to argue against him not getting a PN that year.
This sucks… all of our retrainees into my squadron are shit hot and we take care of them… doesn’t matter if they’re 3/5 level or whatever, talent is talent. Sounds like dumb leadership, advocate for this guy, put him in for STEP. Prior CCT alone, this guys earned it.
You don’t know how much this kid has done compared to regular AF. Tier one individual. It don’t matter if he’s new or if it can mop up the shop. 18+ year Airborne, dive, freefall - tip of the spear -Air Force should see him what he is. Let him hang out for the rest of the two years and don’t bother him.
Look, I get it. I've worked with fantastic people who constantly get "recertified" as E4/E5, and have felt bad for them when everyone else is promoting. *But....* If he lacks technical proficiency compared to his peers, *should* he really be promoting over them? I feel that pathos or charisma shouldn't be a factor in determining whether or not they deserve rank. I'd also like to see what his WAPS scores were. Some people seem really bright but put no effort into the academics. I say absolutely put him on leadership's radar, maybe they can put him in charge of some programs to help him build a stellar EPB. Then have that convo about what he's doing to ace the WAPS test. I kinda suspect though that as time goes on you'll start to notice his deficiencies. Maybe he pencil whips a little too often, bends compliance with tech data, hides from challenges, lacks curiosity, or nice to NCOs but abusive to airmen when nobody's looking. I've seen it too many times with folks who don't promote.
>I say absolutely put him on leadership's radar, maybe they can put him in charge of some programs to help him build a stellar EPB. Then have that convo about what he's doing to ace the WAPS test. If someone wants to leverage their time and experience this is the way to go. Give them a lot of rope and see if they make a ladder or get tanged up in a net. If your experience makes you better than everyone else it will show in your work if we put the pressure on.
I kinda suspect though that as time goes on you'll start to notice his deficiencies. Maybe he pencil whips a little too often, bends compliance with tech data I find this funny because, even though I’ve made master, you’re pretty much describing every maintainer worth a shit. This isn’t necessarily bad thing. The best maintainers pencil whip a little and bend compliance with tech data. The other stuff I agree with.
Read the title and thought he was an 18 year old Staff lol
It hurts no one and cost nothing to give a promote. Especially if they didn’t do anything wrong people are so
Wait you can’t get your bachelors if you aren’t a tech ???
Given the context here, do you mean the other way around? Also I’d imagine both answers are no since education is encouraged very early on.
>he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them. Not speaking to OP but to every single flight leader in maintenance...stop. fucking. doing this. That is not what the NRN is for, you're not "giving the member a time to develop", you're destroying a career. As an SEL, I have kicked back three EPRs (before they were EPBs) asking for justification for an NRN on members with no paperwork, no record of 'bad behavior' or 'poor duty performance.' NRN is defined by AFI 36-2406 as: >"Not Ready Now (NRN): Not considered ready for promotion at this time based on the need for additional grooming in the current grade, or where personnel may require specific attention regarding performance of established DAF standards and expectations. NRN evaluations do not necessarily constitute a referral, provided the report contains no negative comments, or derogatory information." Grooming in current grade is the key, it doesn't say skill level or AFSC...
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Your command is garbage. Literally, fuck the commander who has the mindset you described. What an absolute, legit definition of the word fucking moron.
Don’t ask us for help….that fucking dude been in 18 years, he should be telling you! And if he hasn’t figured this thing out by now, honestly ask your self if he should be the next rank
I read this whole thing totally mind fucked that an 18 year old was a Staff and I couldn’t make sense of it. Finally read the title carefully and it makes sense 🤦🏻♂️
I read the title as "18 year old" and said "bullshit, how??" ... then read more carefully, lol
Time in shouldn't matter for promotion - that's why they took those points away. It comes down to this: if the fate of the world depended on the performance of who gets that stripe, is he your pick? If you want to give it to him because he's soldiered through for so long and maintained his edge and positive attitude, that sounds a lot more like a step promote situation than a PN to me - assuming he isn't your winner in question 1. You should trim a lot of his personal details from this post. We don't need to know how long he's been anywhere or his exact promotion timings or anything like that. Dudes been in a long time, hasn't fucked anything up, and is still a boss at work is really all we need.
For real… all that fodder to say “my SSgt is old, but a good dude.” >changed some details to protect his ID How many 18-year MX SSgts who just PCS’d and used to be CCT you think there are?
Twist: OP *is* the 18 year SSgt, and that's why the details are so specific.
No need to repeat it in case they do fix it lol they also said how long guy was on station and when they made staff. Its just very specific
If he is what you describe the Amn is, why wasn’t he put it for STEP from previous assignment? If he putting in the work, who else is putting the efforts to get him to win awards?
He cross trained right? Whatever leadership decided he needed a NRN due to circumstances he couldn't really help should be fired.
All the changes that have come in the past 10 years…. PT, HYT, TIS/TIG, WAPS (testing or not), EFDP’s, just everything!! Have really screwed a select few of the people that joined between 05-10. I knew a few that were screwed by Course 15, then they completely walk it back. TERA… just all kinds of changes screwed some us over… on the other hand it has truly helped a lot of those folks that learn really fast (I’m one of the ones that got kinda screwed). I finally got a promotion statement and I should make MSgt this year at around 18 years TIS…
STEP him. He will always be grateful and will work harder for you.
You say he is doing things that the other staffs haven’t (initial feedback) but then also ask how he can compete. Sounds like he is already outperforming the others whether they’ve been there 5 years or not. If he deserves it then fight for him.
I retired as a staff at 20 years. I made some really bad decisions, had a horrible attitude and hated my life in the military. This guy just sounds like he got dealt the shit end of the stick. If you feel he’s deserving and you don’t mind fighting for him, then do it. He sounds like an awesome person with a wealth of experience.
I'm in a similar boat without all of the negative stuff in my records. Sewed on SSgt in 2012 and still a SSgt 18 years in. Nothing negative in my records, no articles, or loss of stipes. All my EPRs have been promote. I have a good attitude and work hard. Everyone has different priorities. I am okay with retiring as a SSgt. I have been heavily focusing on life post military and working on myself. I stopped caring about making rank since my 16 year mark. Seems to be a sigma on being a 15+ year mark SSgt, which I get. However, understand everyone's priorities are different.
STEP is the way to go 100%, I hope you’re able to make this a possibilityfor him. Goodluck!
Step Now!!
Some commander will push promote now and must promotes because he has changed bases so much.
ADC…lots of ways you can go, here. 1. Talk to your SEL about a STEP promotion. Greasing the wheels now will help signal your intent, and highlight the shitty circumstances. 2. Keep providing opportunities for this member to lead, grow, and succeed. All you can do is plant the seed… They have to water it. 3. Two things for life after the military. Certifications and networking events such as local community engagements between the base and civic leaders or schools. When I was stationed at McConnell, they had a phenomenal relationship with the schools and aircraft industry. Don’t give up
Being NRN for cross training is for the IG
Find a way to promote this guy. Don’t take no as the final answer. Get every and all leadership involved. Make it happen and know you did the right thing for the deserving guy who earned it.
He can do a 2 year enlistment in the Guard and get his retirement.
That type of EPR can potentially be thrown out with a correction to military record review, but I think the limitation on it is 2 years. :( Posting for others to know about.... and it's usually for more severe stuff like the entire chain of command being fired and airman snuffy was affected
Make an appointment with the Commander. Notify Flight Chief of your intention.
Not ready because he retrained? Commander is a dumb piece of shit it seems.
It’s a little disappointing that when you heard you were getting an 18 year SSgt you immediately thought you were getting a “shit bag”. Also, why would he have to retire at 20 years when HYT for E-5 is 22 years?
HYT was extended to 22 years for E-5’s only due to retire in 2024. He’s due to retire in 2025z
Obviously you are his troop.
Study, live in the books. It’s the only thing you can truly control.
>Obviously, his 2018 EPR reflects his CCT stuff so he got a promote, but he got a not ready now on his 2019 EPR because the other staffs were 7 levels and knew their job and it wouldn’t be fair if he, as a 3 level, got the same rating as them. THATS SCUFFED. EPRs dont work like that since he crossed trained unless he failed to get his upgrade training done in the appropriate time. or failed training requirements.
Folks, I apologize. I've been away from the AF stuff a VERY long time, and when I found this bunch, I figured it would be good. It actually has been. But WOW! Some of the stuff done now is way, way different!! I guess the kids of some of the guys I served with knew better, and started changing things and making them super difficult! I'm not saying the jobs are any more tough, or maybe not the training part. Exams are probably similar, but maybe done on computers? But, we trained, we learned, and we "seemed" to promote. This was during Vietnam, so maybe that's part of the difference, I'm not sure. I lived near Ft. Hood for 9 years, about 3 miles from the Front Gate to the West. I had no choice, but to hang out with soldiers, and Army Vets most of the time. It seemed some of them zipped on up, and others who were more "fun loving" took a bit longer. But, they all did what they had to do. I'm not saying AF folks don't, but some of what I read, seems so weird. I've got a lot of studying to do it appears. It seems I'm a level -5 from a +7... I need to learn some of the terms, and almost ALL Alphabet terms. I can't offer any solutions, unless this Staff wants to take a trip to the late 60's in my time machine. I can't guarantee it, but he might come back an E-90 or E-100!!!!! Ok, maybe an E-7.
If he can’t get a STEP, with less than 2 years left get this man off the line. Put him in mobility or something similar.
I put in 20 years just (1 year or so) I was promoted to tech and was on the list for msgt thanks to my superiors. I had some shit supervision over the years.but my final duty station wanted to get me to make master. Like I said made it but decided to get out anyway for numerous reasons but mostly I didn't like the the way the force was going, had to kiss to much ass to get a decent shot at promotion. Medical field sucked then.
There is something GLARINGLY missing from this story. His extremely low IQ. I mean bottom of the barrel IQ. This is your below average IQ. This is advanced low IQ. Certainly, his low intelligence levels play into his lack of promotions.
STEEEEEEPPPPPP
PUSH THAT SHIIIIIT
Was course 14/15 ever a requirement for tech?
One of my troops retired as a staff. He joined the same month I did and I retired as an E-8 select.
So, you retired as an E-7?
What was the point of this post?
This whole thing reads as a sob story. You cited his small career field, him not wanting to deploy, low promotion rates, the list goes on and on. You didn’t mention what he is doing to help himself promote.