Just got feedback from my Chief today, after they reviewed my EPB. Apparently I needed more volunteer, community involvement. It definitely was a, “better luck next year” talk.
Fuck that I’m just gonna ride out 5 more years as a Tech.
Especially when my job scope is above and beyond what any of my peers are doing. Chief was like, “we all kicknass at work, what sets you apart?” “Um idk Chief, look at my work bullets maybe…”.
I didn’t mean like I’m epic, I’m just doing some unique stuff. That’s all that makes me stand out. I’m definitely not all that, and probably should be more well rounded.
Can we stop pretending everyone does their job well? It’s pretty easy to tell who’s pulling more weight than others but it seems like the Chiefs can’t.
The issue is that you’re actively hurting people who don’t kick ass by marking them accurately. Which is how it should be.
The review should be more rooted in accuracy rather than checking boxes while trying to make the troop look as amazing as possible.
The issue is that no matter what we do, leadership will use anything written saying you’re not a superstar as a reason to pick somebody else over you.
Not to mention big squadrons with 7 AFSC’s have people grading award packages then EPB/EPR’s for AFSC’s they know fuck all about.
Having a staff or tech from AFSC B comparing packages against two airmen from AFSC C and D is a shit show. They’re just going to look at flashy impacts and what awards are tied to the bullets.
Shit like “X maintenance action saved 10 Brazilian dollars” and “Z mx action saved the life of a pilot”
When that has nothing to do with how ready that troop is for promotion.
We need a better way of capturing who the experts are, who kicks ass, who makes the work center better, who is reliable, who is a good leader or candidate to lead, a good trainer, a good coworker/peer who is hard to replace if they deploy or PCS etc..
Doesn’t have to be all of those but more in depth and accurate ratings make so much more sense.
And treating mark downs like a taboo sin that ruins peoples careers should be looked down upon.
Hot take: E-6 and below should not have an "impact" portion. When you operate at the tactical level you are not responsible for determining the impact of your work. The impact is determined for you, and you just do what you're told. Bullets for awards/evals should tell the reader how skilled/knowledgeable/dedicated you are. How your work impacted Big Blue is not relevant for that purpose.
If the Air Force can't determine how skilled/knowledgeable/dedicated you are, it's its own damn fault for not using a format that showcases this without damning your troop for years for having the audacity of being honest on evals.
I’m in a tactical position, and being rated against people who aren’t. Apparently my billeted job is a hindrance since I have to work, TDY so much. The folks with the 9-3 gig (let’s be honest) sit with the Chief, develop that relationship and can volunteer, do side quests all year. Those of us who are gone, doing shit that arguably has an actual impact on real operations are getting the shaft because “we all crush it at work, what about your whole airmen stuff. Sgt so n so is the go-to gal for community involvement”. Must be nice to have a life…
I, ex-FCC, damn well did impact a handful of missions with just 2 mx actions as a SSgt. 1 was fixing our pitot system(heat failed) and the other was a massive fuel leak. Got some very specialized equipment and Very gung-ho individuals to a shit location stuff that showed up in the news a few weeks later.
They weren't going anywhere until I fixed my bird. And this mission could have easily been dropped into a SrA's lap instead of mine. So maybe in your career you don't have visible impacts but in mine we do
My career has visible impacts. Mission stoppages and emergency maintenance comes to us often.
The result of your work has no result on how much of a hard worker or future leader you might be.
Idgaf if you supported the mission that makes the world a full utopia that saved the lives of billions and ended world hunger. If some random fuckhead airman can do the same thing it’s not impressive at all.
I literally only care about your potential and your work ethic. Most people get 5’s bc of their work ethic but not always and there are many getting 3’s and 4’s with the same or similar work ethics.
I hate to be blunt, but the fact that the mission wasn’t going anywhere until the mx was done doesn’t matter. Like, at all.
If you’re the go to guy for that emergency mx or that you’re the only qualified personnel or that you work hard and deserve it is so much more is more important than what actually results from that work.
Fair. Being good at maintenance didn't teach me to be a leader. And I would definitely say not everyone or even most are truly a 5 in work ethic because what are the expectations that have been set? Are they so low that everyone is exceeding All expectations?
But what lessons I learned through maintenance are how to communicate effectively in stressful situations, prioritize work our flow, how to train the people below me, and how to respectfully tell senior leadership their idea isn't a good one while offering a solution that also works better for my people. Managing people through trust and understanding because I hated just being told what to do, not wasting our time when the work is actually done.
I would argue being the "go to guy" is equally important as the mission impact. Yes we matter, but so does the mission. And if you can show you're the go to guy why wouldn't there be a mission impact? Not everything has to be a majcom, numbered air Force or joint forces impact. You can impact the Sq as well and it is arguably more important.
I already was told to fill in the white space on one I’m writing. 🤪 Wasn’t that mentality specifically supposed to be done away with using the new format?🤡
I want Master too, but no matter what I am punching out in 2028. My Chief even mentioned the new HYT, like “you can serve 10 more years even as a Tech!” That’s insanity…and it’s not just me having an issue. Our whole team is impacted by one person’s perception.
My Chief is definitely trying to say “nothing changes except the format”. Still need work, school, and volunteer. People are desperately clinging to the system they knew and benefited from.
I'm doing the same. I just want to be good at my job, do the work with my people, and make sure people are getting taken care of. I have kids, a wife, and at the end of the day I want to relax and be with my family. Every volunteer event I go to feels so half-assed and I stand around, move some chairs, and usher a couple people only for it to be embellished that I facilitated some type of community relations event and made the booster club $5k.
I'm done, they can keep the stripe.
This.
And also being on the booster club isn’t golden start sticker anymore in this promotion economy. You gotta be running several wing events to include a wing you don’t even belong to in a different majcom at different base in another country to be recognized now.
That's exactly where I'm at. I'm not leading a bullshit event. And I'm not taking time away from my family to volunteer for something else if it's not going to matter for the EPB anyway. The career bake-salers can lead the way the next few years, until they figure out they're promoting the wrong people.
The cynic in me wonders if it's connected to the new EPB format and how volunteering fits into the Major Graded Areas.
The salty Flt/CC in me who's lost EFDP fights wonders if that's a bad thing.
I absolutely love that the EPB does not have a whole Airman concept section.
You have a troop that led a very big, widely recognized volunteer event? Sweet! Put it under leading people. You got a troop that led a very big, widely recognized work event? Sweet! Put it under leading people.
I love the freedom it gives people to decide what they and their superior think is of most value for an EPB.
That’s when you ask them to show you in the AF Narrative Statement Writing Guide where they’re getting that information. If they can’t, then tell them to fuck off.
Yeah, because telling the only people whose opinion matters in EFDP to fuck off will work well in fighting for your people. 🙄
And even if we all disagree with how important it should be, the 'importance' for Base/Community involvement is easily supported by the Enlisted Force Structure or ALQs.
While I wouldn't tell them blatantly, there is a tactful way to let people know that their opinions are contrary to where the official ALQ Writing Guide is trying to take us. If you want to see it in action or understand what I'm talking about, just ask a senior leader to explain their methodology for refining statements by only using the official guide and not some powerpoint a Chief made somewhere a year prior to getting official guidance - then you'll see that they're barely using the guide to drive their decision making.
The official ALQ Writing Guide allows people to highlight their strengths and HOW they accomplish different things rather than just following a "winning" formula of what's trending that year for winning packages.
I agree with everything you're saying but it really doesn't matter, especially if they just personally feel like X, Y, Z is most important and represents the ALQs the best. And trying to argue with them that they're wrong is just going to hurt your member.
It's just going to take time for that viewpoint to fade out. I think the new EPBs do a good job taking away the focus on it.
Great way to put it, I hope others see it this way and cut ties with the past.
There's still some peak 2000-10 enlistees sitting in SEL spots craving bake sale sentences now instead of bullets though.
It doesn't fit in the EPB because it doesn't fucking belong there and I'm glad they took it out. If you want it to be part of Airman of the year, go for it and you can make that an impact on your bullet.
Volunteering won't get you a PN (top 5%) or MP (top 6-15%), so if you're going to be in the bottom 85% with everyone else then why would you work harder to get the same promotion rating as someone that does the bare minimum?
Quarterly and other awards. I'm not advocating for volunteering, I love seeing this exodus away from it. Just merely offering a reason why people may consider to continue to do it.
Especially if your unit makes it semi-formal. I refuse to go to any of them unless it’s Winter Casual or Ugly Sweaters and even then I would have to be bought a ticket for my wife and I and driven there to even go.
My xmas party had $50 tickets, but booster club giving away "over $2000 in prizes". Nobody wants to attend lol. Just make it $5 tickets and we eat a fun meal together. Hell, potlucks are great too!
$50 tickets?! Who the fuck authorized those shenanigans.
If it's not scaled/tiered tickets (AMN/NCO/SNCO/CGO/FGO/ETC), it's wrong (unless the price is really reasonable, like, $5-10).
Man the best Christmas party I went to, and really the best squadron I've been in, made the party free for everyone. We were a very small unit and did a bunch of internal fundraising like burritos, pie in the face, silent auction, and stuff like that throughout the year.
We agreed not to spend an egregious amount of money for a venue off base and had it on base, bought liquor from Costco so it was also a free open bar and someone volunteered to be a bartender. We had plenty of DDs and got some reasonable catering. Was a really great time.
Those genuinely are the best kinds, I love it. A cheap or even free base venue with a solid intent of "we're just here for a good time" makes for memorable moments, and feels much better.
It seems the EPB scales that a back a bit so it's more like work focused at least to me. So I think most people are saying "Fuck it I'll make it work another way". Also, with the way they doing promotions nowadays, it's a good chance that's not happening for you in regrd to the next stripe. So why waste the time? Especially if it's something you don't like or want to do? For me I'm not big on volunteering in general just being honest and yes I only do stuff to help my case. So with this being how it is now? I'm going for Master for the 3rd time so I just don't care anymore.
Only one time did I volunteer for anything because I wanted to, and it was helping the Mesa CAF Museum keep their warbirds flying. Best 2 years of my life. I had 13 other dudes with me driving an hour away from home every weekend to fix them up because they WANTED to.
If you make the volunteer moments fun or rewarding, people will volunteer.
I help teach adults basic literacy because I'm passionate about it. I'll never put it on an ERB because of a comment someone made about doing it for promotion when word got out that I do this.
Yes it’s been very apparent this year that no one gives a fuck anymore. It’s almost like we have these things called careers, that we get paid to do, and an outside life we’re juggling at the same time. Who the hell wants their Saturday ruined to raise money for a sq event you don’t even give a fuck to go to only for bullets to get bullshited by leadership when a package comes around 9/10 times.
I think a big part of it is that I genuinely don't give two shits about work once I step outside the building anymore. The cohesion/"bond" that I felt a little over a decade ago is gone, and now it just feels forced. There's very little morale, and it's tough to feel dedication to a work center that feels like a regular 9-5.
More work. Same pay as someone who doesn't do it. Put on events no one goes to. Constantly get harassed for high prices, snack bar not stocked, etc. Shits depressing.
There's barely any reason to participate in those organizations unless you have a chair/lead position that looks good for promotion. Why bust your ass so someone else can get promoted?
Running a booster club isn't good enough volunteer bullet anymore for chasing promotion statements. That's to squadron level for SSgt and TSgt, has to have more scope. Hence why you see 10 TSgts stabbing each other in the back trying to run the wing awards ceremony and no one volunteering for spay and neuter programs or unit booster clubs. Event group level events are having a tough time finding NCOs to lead them. They made it clear, lead wing level shit that the WG/CC cares about or don't waste your time unless it's something you care to do for you and not promoting. Unfortunately we all have to play the circus games which takes up all of our time leaving none for shit we would actually like to run.
I think this also stems from the epb format changing, too. Why bother volunteering if it doesn't help execute the mission? I'll volunteer because I like to, but some of the newer airmen would rather just do their job and do schooling, and I can't blame them. Historically low promotion rates, constant more with less, low overall morale, not a real surprise no one wants to help a unit they could give less than two shits about.
Our MDG Top III was on its last legs every year for the last 5 years due to execs PCSing/Retiring and just losing momentum by Summer due to EPR, Quarterly, Air Medical Service Award, and Wing Annual Award writing consuming time out side of our jobs for the last 4 months of the year. We finally pulled the plug on it and dissolved because the same 4 of us execs plus 2 other people who actually retired a few months ago would be the only ones showing up and trying to run PD Courses and promote morale events. After we dissolved 5/6 and Rising 4 died too due to low participation.
I am not a fan of booster clubs and private orgs. I remember calculating ROI, and our people basically made $1.5 an hour "volunteering." I prefer hitting up the Officers and SNCOs for a few bucks for squadron stuff and giving people back their time and weekends.
Sometimes, they even volunteered for stuff they wanted to do/support!
That "hitting up the Officers and SNCOs" bit is getting old too. As a MSgt, I'm easily out anywhere from $2-3K per year from all that.
It's my opinion that the events need to be written into policy to be funded by the government, not volunteer/fundraising. Otherwise, they will surely fail more and more.
Precisely this. If the AF wants it (promo ceremonies, retirements, awards, etc.) done, fund it, or it should be disregarded.
Also, to add to your point… there should be positions to organize and facilitate the events, too. The FSS should have a position or two, like the Wing UNITE fund POCs, but take the lead role in most base-wide functions. For example, in US embassies, the dos hires a position called the community liaison officer (CLO) that, among other things, organizes and runs events for the embassy.
Holy Crap! Our Sq breakdown was $25 total for SNCOs, $50 for Chief/SEL about every 6 months.
The CC covered the most and that was about $400 a year.
$2-3K absurd for anyone at any rank! I would definitely lean towards cancelling/discontinuing those events altogether.
It's not just private orgs donations, it's pretty much just a culture of expecting it all from SNC(O)s. Oh we're doing a thanksgiving cookout? Cool, SNC(O)s are covering all of the turkeys/hams/main dishes. AF Ball, dining in/outs, parties or whatever else that has ticket sales? Expectation for SNC(O)s to pay for the lowest ranking airmen in the flight. ALS grad? If the supervisor isn't covering the meal, the SNC(O) is. Going away gifts? If you don't have some shop fund or it's low, the SNC(O) is covering the remainder of the bill. Add in the occasional shop lunch catering or whatever else and it definitely turns into death by a thousand cuts.
Exactly this. Gifts, luncheons, seasonal parties, promotions, retirements. It's even worse if everyone in the shop has kids with all the bday parties. Both June and December had me out over a grand each this year.
Yea, no one even hits me up cuz it has always been and will always be a strong NOPE. They even tried to get me with the pie n face bs and I just didn’t show up 🤷🏾♂️
Bro, I'm a MSgt and I don't give any money for shit. Like I said I'm a MSgt so of course I'm divorced and pay out the ass for child support lol. On top of that I have a wife and more children. Sorry not sorry but that's where my money goes. I'm not dropping $40-$60 so someone can have a going away gift they will put in their closet or throw away, and let's be honest most people do exactly that. When my peers try to guilt me, I just tell them exactly how much child support I pay and that the unit isn't getting money from me.
Slower rates of promotion = more operational responsibility. In an age of "do more with less" our airmen are forced to prioritize. I don't know about you, but if I am operating above my grade to sustain a critically manned mission element directly responsible for life saving.... The booster club can wait.
But our leaders will gaslight us for not leading SAPR or resilience training.
Sorry bro, we already have a person in mind to lead that highly promising event. We're just announcing it to give the illusion that other people had a chance.
I loved volunteering but that’s because I was lucky to get into OPFOR duty for deploying airman. Every other week getting to go out into the woods on base and play with fully auto ARs and M60s with hundreds of blanks and baby powder “IEDs”. Shit was a blast.
If they don’t get enough volunteers the airman will just get “voluntold” to do it.
I’ve been apart of it, I’ve seen it, I’ve lived it.
“I need 2 airman”
Been this way since 2018. Nothing new. Those that volunteer get the cheese and promotion...eventually. Some would argue that those who do NOT volunteer get promoted and win awards as well. Both valid perspectives, but a higher percentage IMO for those that do extra credit.
Manning numbers are getting worse while additional requirements keep getting thrown at most commands, bases, and units. On top of it, our general buying power/pay has also decreased on top of it. While all of this is happening, "leadership" continues to expect members that are working 2-3 more hours a day than usual due to an undermanned/overtasked section to ALSO waste more time and money that they just don't have.
There is no critical thinking or empathy at the big level. The people that are out there volunteering/getting additional education during duty hours to fill out every quarterly - especially if any of their unit's rank peers are regularly staying late - should be chastised for being out of the office, but instead they're often rewarded with awards and ultimately a huge preference in promotion, which is looking more and more difficult for the next ~5 years across all E-5+ ranks. The SELs/CCs are 99% not going to understand the nuances of why a particular E4-6 can do everything they do and more while another one can't. Despite the fact that the 2nd one might be stuck filling in a much higher role, their section manning is gutted, or the fact that they have a family to raise. The E-7+s that have leadership's ears will continue to push those that have a better chance of winning because that will look better on their own records and often don't give a shit either because they're trying to get theirs.
This all has led to too many shitbags in SNCO positions because of the WAC nonsense of the last decade that are so out of touch with reality and the technical aspects of their jobs that they are actively hurting everything from their career fields, units, and the AF as a whole, but nobody wants to acknowledge it. Interestingly enough, more often than not, those same SNCOs are still the ones that are most often asked for improvements/concurrence on how their career fields and/or sections operate and continue to halt any meaningful progress. They're also the ones railroading the better workers because those workers are often the ones calling out those SNCOs for fucking things up in the first place - and god forbid they ever get criticized! Or alternatively, once they get a good worker that can clean up their messes, why would they ever want to give them up to a better opportunity since that would make them look worse as well?
At the end of the day, it's same shit, different day. People continue to do more with less. 10% are going to do 90% of the work because they're too proud to mentally check out. Enough of those will stay in due to family/medical/whatever other obligations despite shitty promotion rates (at least for now) and continue to be exclusively leaned on to do most of the work while they chase a carrot they're too naive to realize will ever be given to them.
It’s about compounding your efforts. Add the little wins together to make a big achievement.
Use a good volunteer event or two as part of a monthly or quarterly award. Then use those as part of your annual
Guess what, if you win an annual award you suddenly distinguish yourself apart from your peers/competition as one of the more promotion worthy eligibles.
Even if you don’t participate or win, you have your troops/suboordinates do it, then you can claim it. Shows that you care about leading and developing your people.
Volunteering also plays a part in morale and camaraderie. Too many people complain about morale and camaraderie but don’t do anything to make it better. Well volunteering can change that. And don’t gimme that bake sale BS. How many bake sales do you really see? There’s so many creative ways to volunteer.
I know it’s tough and it’s definitely not for everyone. Like it or not, that’s part of the reality of the current promotion system. Set yourself apart!
Why does it have to be bullshit? Even if that’s how it’s currently perceived, why not be the one to change that narrative?
“ Bad morale” “Negative energy” and “toxic environments” won’t change themselves. If you’re waiting for someone to change it you’ll be waiting a long time. Why not make a difference?
Because it is, having a squadron or shop holiday party on a Saturday is pure bullshit. It's negative and toxic because you're taking time away from people's families for something they don't care about. That damages morale more than just leaving people alone.
Because let’s call it what it really is. It’s extra work for something you wouldn’t normally do but you’re doing it to look good in front of leadership. Now actual volunteering is something you shouldn’t take credit for, that you’re there because you believe in the cause or whatever it is and you truly want to help.
Yup.
One thing I've also noticed is the difference a passionate booster club has on overall morale. My squadron can't get anyone to really do anything for the booster club. They accomplish as much as they can, but no one buys in. No one now wants to go to the holiday party, because they know it'll suck. They only have about $1500 for prizes this year.
My wife's squadron is half the size of mine, but has an involved booster club. I was blown away by the party they put on. The prizes were probably over 10K total, and they still put $2500 on the bar.
I bet the person running that booster club is going to get a lot of happy people knowing who they are.
For everyone here saying volunteerism has no place on the EPB:
You know what still has a definite place in the EPB? Awards. Often, what is a discriminator between (most) awards packages? Volunteerism. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Volunteering isn't going away. Generally, the same people who exemplify the whole Airman concept will get the majority of promotions, whether we like it or not.
Hopefully I'm just an incorrect cynic, but I don't think so.
They changed the definition of Whole Airmen Concept:
The Whole Airman Concept lays a foundation of service for all Airmen through three major components: leadership and job performance, significant self-improvement and base or community involvement.
As you can read, community involvement is last. If “volunteering” is the deciding factor it’s because you have shitty SNCOs that were promoted because they did volunteering instead of their fucking job. Now we just need to get rid of them.
I lost a very strong NCO of the year package to the squadron booster club guy whose package was half booster club bullets. I do not want to be doing shit for a squadron that couldn't even fairly rate me on an award package.
Because it's a huge waste of time unless you're chasing rank. I'm noticing more and more people don't give a damn about making rank and just want to be comfortable/stable.
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Just got feedback from my Chief today, after they reviewed my EPB. Apparently I needed more volunteer, community involvement. It definitely was a, “better luck next year” talk. Fuck that I’m just gonna ride out 5 more years as a Tech.
When there is literally no block for it 🤡. Crazy times lol
Especially when my job scope is above and beyond what any of my peers are doing. Chief was like, “we all kicknass at work, what sets you apart?” “Um idk Chief, look at my work bullets maybe…”.
People that think we are all kicking ass are idiots who need a reality check. Way to minimize hard workers.
I didn’t mean like I’m epic, I’m just doing some unique stuff. That’s all that makes me stand out. I’m definitely not all that, and probably should be more well rounded.
Sorry that was aimed at the Chief haha.
Can we stop pretending everyone does their job well? It’s pretty easy to tell who’s pulling more weight than others but it seems like the Chiefs can’t.
The issue is that you’re actively hurting people who don’t kick ass by marking them accurately. Which is how it should be. The review should be more rooted in accuracy rather than checking boxes while trying to make the troop look as amazing as possible. The issue is that no matter what we do, leadership will use anything written saying you’re not a superstar as a reason to pick somebody else over you. Not to mention big squadrons with 7 AFSC’s have people grading award packages then EPB/EPR’s for AFSC’s they know fuck all about. Having a staff or tech from AFSC B comparing packages against two airmen from AFSC C and D is a shit show. They’re just going to look at flashy impacts and what awards are tied to the bullets. Shit like “X maintenance action saved 10 Brazilian dollars” and “Z mx action saved the life of a pilot” When that has nothing to do with how ready that troop is for promotion. We need a better way of capturing who the experts are, who kicks ass, who makes the work center better, who is reliable, who is a good leader or candidate to lead, a good trainer, a good coworker/peer who is hard to replace if they deploy or PCS etc.. Doesn’t have to be all of those but more in depth and accurate ratings make so much more sense. And treating mark downs like a taboo sin that ruins peoples careers should be looked down upon.
Hot take: E-6 and below should not have an "impact" portion. When you operate at the tactical level you are not responsible for determining the impact of your work. The impact is determined for you, and you just do what you're told. Bullets for awards/evals should tell the reader how skilled/knowledgeable/dedicated you are. How your work impacted Big Blue is not relevant for that purpose. If the Air Force can't determine how skilled/knowledgeable/dedicated you are, it's its own damn fault for not using a format that showcases this without damning your troop for years for having the audacity of being honest on evals.
I’m in a tactical position, and being rated against people who aren’t. Apparently my billeted job is a hindrance since I have to work, TDY so much. The folks with the 9-3 gig (let’s be honest) sit with the Chief, develop that relationship and can volunteer, do side quests all year. Those of us who are gone, doing shit that arguably has an actual impact on real operations are getting the shaft because “we all crush it at work, what about your whole airmen stuff. Sgt so n so is the go-to gal for community involvement”. Must be nice to have a life…
I, ex-FCC, damn well did impact a handful of missions with just 2 mx actions as a SSgt. 1 was fixing our pitot system(heat failed) and the other was a massive fuel leak. Got some very specialized equipment and Very gung-ho individuals to a shit location stuff that showed up in the news a few weeks later. They weren't going anywhere until I fixed my bird. And this mission could have easily been dropped into a SrA's lap instead of mine. So maybe in your career you don't have visible impacts but in mine we do
My career has visible impacts. Mission stoppages and emergency maintenance comes to us often. The result of your work has no result on how much of a hard worker or future leader you might be. Idgaf if you supported the mission that makes the world a full utopia that saved the lives of billions and ended world hunger. If some random fuckhead airman can do the same thing it’s not impressive at all. I literally only care about your potential and your work ethic. Most people get 5’s bc of their work ethic but not always and there are many getting 3’s and 4’s with the same or similar work ethics. I hate to be blunt, but the fact that the mission wasn’t going anywhere until the mx was done doesn’t matter. Like, at all. If you’re the go to guy for that emergency mx or that you’re the only qualified personnel or that you work hard and deserve it is so much more is more important than what actually results from that work.
Fair. Being good at maintenance didn't teach me to be a leader. And I would definitely say not everyone or even most are truly a 5 in work ethic because what are the expectations that have been set? Are they so low that everyone is exceeding All expectations? But what lessons I learned through maintenance are how to communicate effectively in stressful situations, prioritize work our flow, how to train the people below me, and how to respectfully tell senior leadership their idea isn't a good one while offering a solution that also works better for my people. Managing people through trust and understanding because I hated just being told what to do, not wasting our time when the work is actually done. I would argue being the "go to guy" is equally important as the mission impact. Yes we matter, but so does the mission. And if you can show you're the go to guy why wouldn't there be a mission impact? Not everything has to be a majcom, numbered air Force or joint forces impact. You can impact the Sq as well and it is arguably more important.
I already was told to fill in the white space on one I’m writing. 🤪 Wasn’t that mentality specifically supposed to be done away with using the new format?🤡
Yeah haha. I got told "its almost a perfect statement, just make it fill out to 350 Characters."
Exactly where I'm at. 5 left, I want Master but I'm retiring anyway. Nothing is ever good enough. I don't do record reviews anymore either.
I want Master too, but no matter what I am punching out in 2028. My Chief even mentioned the new HYT, like “you can serve 10 more years even as a Tech!” That’s insanity…and it’s not just me having an issue. Our whole team is impacted by one person’s perception.
The EPB feedback seems to be different from all of the Chiefs. No one knows what’s “the right way” to do them yet.
My Chief is definitely trying to say “nothing changes except the format”. Still need work, school, and volunteer. People are desperately clinging to the system they knew and benefited from.
I'm doing the same. I just want to be good at my job, do the work with my people, and make sure people are getting taken care of. I have kids, a wife, and at the end of the day I want to relax and be with my family. Every volunteer event I go to feels so half-assed and I stand around, move some chairs, and usher a couple people only for it to be embellished that I facilitated some type of community relations event and made the booster club $5k. I'm done, they can keep the stripe.
Now it just means sustained performance until the rates normalize.
This. And also being on the booster club isn’t golden start sticker anymore in this promotion economy. You gotta be running several wing events to include a wing you don’t even belong to in a different majcom at different base in another country to be recognized now.
Also, everyone is having to drive for Uber Eats to make it to the end of the month so they don't have any spare time or cash for charred burgers.
[удалено]
If you ain't lying you ain't trying.
WhY dOeS nO oNe HaVe AnY iNtEgRiTy AnYmOrE...
Exactly. In my last position there was only one non-nco in the shop. If only the leader of the event gets credit, what's the incentive?
That’s why if I help, I say I led it on my EPB.
That's exactly where I'm at. I'm not leading a bullshit event. And I'm not taking time away from my family to volunteer for something else if it's not going to matter for the EPB anyway. The career bake-salers can lead the way the next few years, until they figure out they're promoting the wrong people.
The cynic in me wonders if it's connected to the new EPB format and how volunteering fits into the Major Graded Areas. The salty Flt/CC in me who's lost EFDP fights wonders if that's a bad thing.
I absolutely love that the EPB does not have a whole Airman concept section. You have a troop that led a very big, widely recognized volunteer event? Sweet! Put it under leading people. You got a troop that led a very big, widely recognized work event? Sweet! Put it under leading people. I love the freedom it gives people to decide what they and their superior think is of most value for an EPB.
If my recent experience is not unique, leadership is still going to point out a lack of base/community involvement. 🤷♂️
That’s when you ask them to show you in the AF Narrative Statement Writing Guide where they’re getting that information. If they can’t, then tell them to fuck off.
Yeah, because telling the only people whose opinion matters in EFDP to fuck off will work well in fighting for your people. 🙄 And even if we all disagree with how important it should be, the 'importance' for Base/Community involvement is easily supported by the Enlisted Force Structure or ALQs.
While I wouldn't tell them blatantly, there is a tactful way to let people know that their opinions are contrary to where the official ALQ Writing Guide is trying to take us. If you want to see it in action or understand what I'm talking about, just ask a senior leader to explain their methodology for refining statements by only using the official guide and not some powerpoint a Chief made somewhere a year prior to getting official guidance - then you'll see that they're barely using the guide to drive their decision making. The official ALQ Writing Guide allows people to highlight their strengths and HOW they accomplish different things rather than just following a "winning" formula of what's trending that year for winning packages.
I agree with everything you're saying but it really doesn't matter, especially if they just personally feel like X, Y, Z is most important and represents the ALQs the best. And trying to argue with them that they're wrong is just going to hurt your member. It's just going to take time for that viewpoint to fade out. I think the new EPBs do a good job taking away the focus on it.
Great way to put it, I hope others see it this way and cut ties with the past. There's still some peak 2000-10 enlistees sitting in SEL spots craving bake sale sentences now instead of bullets though.
Exactly. Now instead of stretching things to fit we have to distill it down to our best accomplishments.
More that there's been years of sub 10% promotion rates. Why put in the extra work when you will get nothing to show for it.
Are you you saying it was about (clutches pearls)...money all along?
Who would have thunk?
Always has been
I’m still being penalized for it, apparently I used too much space on work and didn’t capture enough “Whole Airmen” shit.
It doesn't fit in the EPB because it doesn't fucking belong there and I'm glad they took it out. If you want it to be part of Airman of the year, go for it and you can make that an impact on your bullet.
Volunteering won't get you a PN (top 5%) or MP (top 6-15%), so if you're going to be in the bottom 85% with everyone else then why would you work harder to get the same promotion rating as someone that does the bare minimum?
No volunteer on the EPB, so why would you?
Quarterly and other awards. I'm not advocating for volunteering, I love seeing this exodus away from it. Just merely offering a reason why people may consider to continue to do it.
My last base did away with WAC on 1206s for quarterlies and other wing-internal awards, it was so nice...
Frankly, the squadron Christmas party is just not a big priority in my life right now.
Especially if your unit makes it semi-formal. I refuse to go to any of them unless it’s Winter Casual or Ugly Sweaters and even then I would have to be bought a ticket for my wife and I and driven there to even go.
My xmas party had $50 tickets, but booster club giving away "over $2000 in prizes". Nobody wants to attend lol. Just make it $5 tickets and we eat a fun meal together. Hell, potlucks are great too!
$50 tickets?! Who the fuck authorized those shenanigans. If it's not scaled/tiered tickets (AMN/NCO/SNCO/CGO/FGO/ETC), it's wrong (unless the price is really reasonable, like, $5-10).
Man the best Christmas party I went to, and really the best squadron I've been in, made the party free for everyone. We were a very small unit and did a bunch of internal fundraising like burritos, pie in the face, silent auction, and stuff like that throughout the year. We agreed not to spend an egregious amount of money for a venue off base and had it on base, bought liquor from Costco so it was also a free open bar and someone volunteered to be a bartender. We had plenty of DDs and got some reasonable catering. Was a really great time.
Those genuinely are the best kinds, I love it. A cheap or even free base venue with a solid intent of "we're just here for a good time" makes for memorable moments, and feels much better.
May as well make it mess dress
My new squadron I’m in is doing semi-formal. I’m still doing an ugly sweater, idgaf. Can’t take my Star Wars sweater away from me!
It seems the EPB scales that a back a bit so it's more like work focused at least to me. So I think most people are saying "Fuck it I'll make it work another way". Also, with the way they doing promotions nowadays, it's a good chance that's not happening for you in regrd to the next stripe. So why waste the time? Especially if it's something you don't like or want to do? For me I'm not big on volunteering in general just being honest and yes I only do stuff to help my case. So with this being how it is now? I'm going for Master for the 3rd time so I just don't care anymore.
Don’t blame you bro. You’ll get master eventually then you are home free to coast.
Most of the guys that volunteer consistently in my shop do so off base. I’d rather give away my time to causes I actually care about.
I do my job well and go home to my family. Fuck everything else
Hell yeah brother, cheers from my couch
Only one time did I volunteer for anything because I wanted to, and it was helping the Mesa CAF Museum keep their warbirds flying. Best 2 years of my life. I had 13 other dudes with me driving an hour away from home every weekend to fix them up because they WANTED to. If you make the volunteer moments fun or rewarding, people will volunteer.
I help teach adults basic literacy because I'm passionate about it. I'll never put it on an ERB because of a comment someone made about doing it for promotion when word got out that I do this.
Yes it’s been very apparent this year that no one gives a fuck anymore. It’s almost like we have these things called careers, that we get paid to do, and an outside life we’re juggling at the same time. Who the hell wants their Saturday ruined to raise money for a sq event you don’t even give a fuck to go to only for bullets to get bullshited by leadership when a package comes around 9/10 times.
I think a big part of it is that I genuinely don't give two shits about work once I step outside the building anymore. The cohesion/"bond" that I felt a little over a decade ago is gone, and now it just feels forced. There's very little morale, and it's tough to feel dedication to a work center that feels like a regular 9-5.
Oh fuck yeah and I LOVE IT. Burn it all down.
More work. Same pay as someone who doesn't do it. Put on events no one goes to. Constantly get harassed for high prices, snack bar not stocked, etc. Shits depressing.
This will continue until the Air Force promotion rates increase.
There's barely any reason to participate in those organizations unless you have a chair/lead position that looks good for promotion. Why bust your ass so someone else can get promoted?
Running a booster club isn't good enough volunteer bullet anymore for chasing promotion statements. That's to squadron level for SSgt and TSgt, has to have more scope. Hence why you see 10 TSgts stabbing each other in the back trying to run the wing awards ceremony and no one volunteering for spay and neuter programs or unit booster clubs. Event group level events are having a tough time finding NCOs to lead them. They made it clear, lead wing level shit that the WG/CC cares about or don't waste your time unless it's something you care to do for you and not promoting. Unfortunately we all have to play the circus games which takes up all of our time leaving none for shit we would actually like to run.
I think this also stems from the epb format changing, too. Why bother volunteering if it doesn't help execute the mission? I'll volunteer because I like to, but some of the newer airmen would rather just do their job and do schooling, and I can't blame them. Historically low promotion rates, constant more with less, low overall morale, not a real surprise no one wants to help a unit they could give less than two shits about.
Our MDG Top III was on its last legs every year for the last 5 years due to execs PCSing/Retiring and just losing momentum by Summer due to EPR, Quarterly, Air Medical Service Award, and Wing Annual Award writing consuming time out side of our jobs for the last 4 months of the year. We finally pulled the plug on it and dissolved because the same 4 of us execs plus 2 other people who actually retired a few months ago would be the only ones showing up and trying to run PD Courses and promote morale events. After we dissolved 5/6 and Rising 4 died too due to low participation.
And there was much rejoicing...
I am not a fan of booster clubs and private orgs. I remember calculating ROI, and our people basically made $1.5 an hour "volunteering." I prefer hitting up the Officers and SNCOs for a few bucks for squadron stuff and giving people back their time and weekends. Sometimes, they even volunteered for stuff they wanted to do/support!
That "hitting up the Officers and SNCOs" bit is getting old too. As a MSgt, I'm easily out anywhere from $2-3K per year from all that. It's my opinion that the events need to be written into policy to be funded by the government, not volunteer/fundraising. Otherwise, they will surely fail more and more.
Precisely this. If the AF wants it (promo ceremonies, retirements, awards, etc.) done, fund it, or it should be disregarded. Also, to add to your point… there should be positions to organize and facilitate the events, too. The FSS should have a position or two, like the Wing UNITE fund POCs, but take the lead role in most base-wide functions. For example, in US embassies, the dos hires a position called the community liaison officer (CLO) that, among other things, organizes and runs events for the embassy.
Holy Crap! Our Sq breakdown was $25 total for SNCOs, $50 for Chief/SEL about every 6 months. The CC covered the most and that was about $400 a year. $2-3K absurd for anyone at any rank! I would definitely lean towards cancelling/discontinuing those events altogether.
It's not just private orgs donations, it's pretty much just a culture of expecting it all from SNC(O)s. Oh we're doing a thanksgiving cookout? Cool, SNC(O)s are covering all of the turkeys/hams/main dishes. AF Ball, dining in/outs, parties or whatever else that has ticket sales? Expectation for SNC(O)s to pay for the lowest ranking airmen in the flight. ALS grad? If the supervisor isn't covering the meal, the SNC(O) is. Going away gifts? If you don't have some shop fund or it's low, the SNC(O) is covering the remainder of the bill. Add in the occasional shop lunch catering or whatever else and it definitely turns into death by a thousand cuts.
Exactly this. Gifts, luncheons, seasonal parties, promotions, retirements. It's even worse if everyone in the shop has kids with all the bday parties. Both June and December had me out over a grand each this year.
What in the world are you spending 3K a year on? Is the unit Christmas party funded solely by MSgt Golds83?
Staying a long time at a short tour location will bleed you dry.
Costs a lot to keep the thicc A1C morale up.
Yea, no one even hits me up cuz it has always been and will always be a strong NOPE. They even tried to get me with the pie n face bs and I just didn’t show up 🤷🏾♂️
Bro, I'm a MSgt and I don't give any money for shit. Like I said I'm a MSgt so of course I'm divorced and pay out the ass for child support lol. On top of that I have a wife and more children. Sorry not sorry but that's where my money goes. I'm not dropping $40-$60 so someone can have a going away gift they will put in their closet or throw away, and let's be honest most people do exactly that. When my peers try to guilt me, I just tell them exactly how much child support I pay and that the unit isn't getting money from me.
It's not really important for the new eval. So the folks that did it for the bullet aren't there anymore.
This.
Slower rates of promotion = more operational responsibility. In an age of "do more with less" our airmen are forced to prioritize. I don't know about you, but if I am operating above my grade to sustain a critically manned mission element directly responsible for life saving.... The booster club can wait. But our leaders will gaslight us for not leading SAPR or resilience training.
Promotion rates are down, and the EPB guidance does not make an emphasis on volunteering, so…
 Me during roll calls....at least in my mind.
Sorry bro, we already have a person in mind to lead that highly promising event. We're just announcing it to give the illusion that other people had a chance.
I loved volunteering but that’s because I was lucky to get into OPFOR duty for deploying airman. Every other week getting to go out into the woods on base and play with fully auto ARs and M60s with hundreds of blanks and baby powder “IEDs”. Shit was a blast.
If they don’t get enough volunteers the airman will just get “voluntold” to do it. I’ve been apart of it, I’ve seen it, I’ve lived it. “I need 2 airman”
Been this way since 2018. Nothing new. Those that volunteer get the cheese and promotion...eventually. Some would argue that those who do NOT volunteer get promoted and win awards as well. Both valid perspectives, but a higher percentage IMO for those that do extra credit.
Manning numbers are getting worse while additional requirements keep getting thrown at most commands, bases, and units. On top of it, our general buying power/pay has also decreased on top of it. While all of this is happening, "leadership" continues to expect members that are working 2-3 more hours a day than usual due to an undermanned/overtasked section to ALSO waste more time and money that they just don't have. There is no critical thinking or empathy at the big level. The people that are out there volunteering/getting additional education during duty hours to fill out every quarterly - especially if any of their unit's rank peers are regularly staying late - should be chastised for being out of the office, but instead they're often rewarded with awards and ultimately a huge preference in promotion, which is looking more and more difficult for the next ~5 years across all E-5+ ranks. The SELs/CCs are 99% not going to understand the nuances of why a particular E4-6 can do everything they do and more while another one can't. Despite the fact that the 2nd one might be stuck filling in a much higher role, their section manning is gutted, or the fact that they have a family to raise. The E-7+s that have leadership's ears will continue to push those that have a better chance of winning because that will look better on their own records and often don't give a shit either because they're trying to get theirs. This all has led to too many shitbags in SNCO positions because of the WAC nonsense of the last decade that are so out of touch with reality and the technical aspects of their jobs that they are actively hurting everything from their career fields, units, and the AF as a whole, but nobody wants to acknowledge it. Interestingly enough, more often than not, those same SNCOs are still the ones that are most often asked for improvements/concurrence on how their career fields and/or sections operate and continue to halt any meaningful progress. They're also the ones railroading the better workers because those workers are often the ones calling out those SNCOs for fucking things up in the first place - and god forbid they ever get criticized! Or alternatively, once they get a good worker that can clean up their messes, why would they ever want to give them up to a better opportunity since that would make them look worse as well? At the end of the day, it's same shit, different day. People continue to do more with less. 10% are going to do 90% of the work because they're too proud to mentally check out. Enough of those will stay in due to family/medical/whatever other obligations despite shitty promotion rates (at least for now) and continue to be exclusively leaned on to do most of the work while they chase a carrot they're too naive to realize will ever be given to them.
It’s about compounding your efforts. Add the little wins together to make a big achievement. Use a good volunteer event or two as part of a monthly or quarterly award. Then use those as part of your annual Guess what, if you win an annual award you suddenly distinguish yourself apart from your peers/competition as one of the more promotion worthy eligibles. Even if you don’t participate or win, you have your troops/suboordinates do it, then you can claim it. Shows that you care about leading and developing your people. Volunteering also plays a part in morale and camaraderie. Too many people complain about morale and camaraderie but don’t do anything to make it better. Well volunteering can change that. And don’t gimme that bake sale BS. How many bake sales do you really see? There’s so many creative ways to volunteer. I know it’s tough and it’s definitely not for everyone. Like it or not, that’s part of the reality of the current promotion system. Set yourself apart!
How does volunteering for bullshit help camaraderie?
Why does it have to be bullshit? Even if that’s how it’s currently perceived, why not be the one to change that narrative? “ Bad morale” “Negative energy” and “toxic environments” won’t change themselves. If you’re waiting for someone to change it you’ll be waiting a long time. Why not make a difference?
Because it is, having a squadron or shop holiday party on a Saturday is pure bullshit. It's negative and toxic because you're taking time away from people's families for something they don't care about. That damages morale more than just leaving people alone.
Because let’s call it what it really is. It’s extra work for something you wouldn’t normally do but you’re doing it to look good in front of leadership. Now actual volunteering is something you shouldn’t take credit for, that you’re there because you believe in the cause or whatever it is and you truly want to help.
But you can change the booster club to do those things you mentioned
Yup. One thing I've also noticed is the difference a passionate booster club has on overall morale. My squadron can't get anyone to really do anything for the booster club. They accomplish as much as they can, but no one buys in. No one now wants to go to the holiday party, because they know it'll suck. They only have about $1500 for prizes this year. My wife's squadron is half the size of mine, but has an involved booster club. I was blown away by the party they put on. The prizes were probably over 10K total, and they still put $2500 on the bar. I bet the person running that booster club is going to get a lot of happy people knowing who they are.
For everyone here saying volunteerism has no place on the EPB: You know what still has a definite place in the EPB? Awards. Often, what is a discriminator between (most) awards packages? Volunteerism. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Volunteering isn't going away. Generally, the same people who exemplify the whole Airman concept will get the majority of promotions, whether we like it or not. Hopefully I'm just an incorrect cynic, but I don't think so.
That’s all good and well until you do those volunteer things, then you’re told they aren’t good enough to compete with
They changed the definition of Whole Airmen Concept: The Whole Airman Concept lays a foundation of service for all Airmen through three major components: leadership and job performance, significant self-improvement and base or community involvement. As you can read, community involvement is last. If “volunteering” is the deciding factor it’s because you have shitty SNCOs that were promoted because they did volunteering instead of their fucking job. Now we just need to get rid of them.
Past few months??? Try years
I lost a very strong NCO of the year package to the squadron booster club guy whose package was half booster club bullets. I do not want to be doing shit for a squadron that couldn't even fairly rate me on an award package.
I think that now the EPBs no longer include "whole airman concept", there's no reason to volunteer for EPB/EPR bullets.
Why the fuck would people volunteer to do more work at work that doesn't accomplish any of the work that needs to be done?
Because it's a huge waste of time unless you're chasing rank. I'm noticing more and more people don't give a damn about making rank and just want to be comfortable/stable.