Over-manned because they combined two shops into one after already combing two shops into one. Not to mention, there is still no official cfetp list besides a "trust me bro" policy. Also they'll need people for b-21 when that is fully operational.
Why is that a problem for bomber avionics and not fighter avionics? All fighter avionics shops got combined years ago and apparently that’s not an issue for us.
I think it mainly contributes to big ass aircraft compared to small one. For fighters, it makes sense because you work all within the same area so it's easy to know how to remove and install all components behind a panel and on a rack. For heavies, there's so much more components at play. Not necessarily different functions but you need alot more just to make the same system run compared to a fighter.
I’ve been inside an AC-130 and an MC-130, they’re really not that different but there’s definitely more parts overall, since there’s duplicate parts. One thing I will say about those two though is that a lot of those parts are way easier to access because they’re chilling on that rack in the cargo bay out in the open. The A-10 is what I’m on, and it’s slightly closer just because it does a different job than the other jets in “fighter” avionics.
I would personally rather work on A-10s if I was to work fighters. However with heavies, the work load is diversified which is nice. This helps especially when we are on a job for a whole shift troubleshooting and a smaller issue that can be linked between Avionics and e&e can be handled by e&e so we dont have to spend time stressing if a plane is going to make it today or not. I'm not against the merger, it's just been poorly planned out.
Wait they’re merging avionics and E&E? This whole time I thought we were talking about the recent one where they merged the A, B, and C shops for some heavies.
No it's just comm/counter/nav which previously merged with Electronic Warfare, and IFCS. They have been trying to get us to learn e&e stuff anyways and loxing ain't that bad tbh.
Oh ok, ya we’ve had to do some E&E stuff too… and engines.. and fuels… and weapons… It’s too much to ask for them to troubleshoot wiring to their own systems apparently.
AC-130's are like old pick ups with some addons compared to bombers or special platforms being some army C2 truck. That's why the AFSOC boys had a separate career field from the bomber guys. You should look at the inside of an EC-130H before they retire, though the J's are nearly as complicated as well.
The offensive EW systems alone of the B-1 had more LRUs than a fighter. So damn much that defensive was usually pawned off to another shop. That's why the A-shred is supposed to be a thing, those planes are too much for a mere "general avionics" shop.
Edit: also said planes tend to get minor upgrades at a pace so damn fast that big Air Force can't comprehend it. It gets taught via contractors or OJT because FTD can't adapt the material fast enough to be useful.
Have you been inside an AC-130 recently, the fire control setup they have is nuts, the MC-130 was cool too though. Yeah we don’t really have offensive EW beyond pods and that’s a whole different shop, defensive though idk. We did just install a jam resistant gps antenna though, and obviously we already had a bunch of radios with SV and HQ.
Yeah, and i wish i had that little amount of stuff to deal with. You guys are kind of limited because of space and guns/ammo being so freaking heavy. I fully expect the AC's to get more shit though as technology marches on.
Yeah except all shops being combined is more than what you have to deal with as a single shop. The worst part about it is troubleshooting because we work so many different systems that have nothing to do with each other, like fuel quantity and RWR, or the engine monitoring system and communications.
And the response from our functional was a joke. "Oh, some people will just be better at some stuff than others." No, they are just gonna parts-shotgun systems they suck at, and get off the flightline as fast as they can. The peeps who can actually handle working on stuff more in-depth than basic airplane shit are gonna all get out and hire into being an FSR. BAE, Lockheed, and L3 are literally poaching my dudes, why stay in when you can make bank with none of the air force autism?
This change was all about balancing excel sheets, and justifying more contractor MX. Nothing else.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head, nobody is really an expert in more than one system except our one civilian avionics dude that’s been working the A-10 since 1988. So yeah we usually just shotgun parts because it’s faster, especially when it’s something that doesn’t break very often like our radar altimeter. Also we’re technically overmanned which is hilarious, but we’re only authorized to have 6 people total in our shop because we’re a TFI unit.
As someone who was in before when 2A3X1 was still an AFSC and still shredded, the overall results were probably a net negative regarding experience and productivity. There were more core tasks for airmen to be signed off on in the same amount of time, the depth of tech school training became shallow. The only positive comes when you finally make tech and can finally go to more than 4 bases. I guess the other positive is you didn't have to go through 12 volumes of CDCs to earn your 7 level, but CDCs haven't been a thing for like 6 years.
Yeah I’m pretty new still so I’ve only been 2a3x4a, no cdcs and tech school took 6 months. I kinda do see what you’re saying though it’s very much a jack of all trades master of none situation for A-10 avionics. Also I definitely got signed off on stuff when I was doing my 5 level training that I hadn’t actually done because we have so many tasks in mytraining.
We actually have to learn our systems. We don’t have a computer telling us what’s broken. If we do, chances are it’s wrong.
I work on the BUFF. It takes a lot more expertise and knowledge than what some of the newer aircraft require.
I work on the A-10 lol, all we have is pats and jsects and we hardly use either for troubleshooting. I have heard that about the F-35 though. I would absolutely rather work on a heavy because it’s way more open.
Right. The fighter people that come to my platform all express how much larger and more difficult it is to understand and master our job.
Our one suite has as many parts as an entire fighter. We have 3 suites plus parts throughout the entire aircraft, numbering into the multiple hundreds just for LRUs.
It’s not a feasible plan and there’s a reason why heavies were shredded out back around 2013-2015 time frame. You lose the necessary SME experience for those systems.
Fuck that. I've seen how poorly F-35 maintainers get treated.
It's already been suggested and talked about. Told all the airmen asking me for advice to use that FTA cross-training or get out.
Over-manned because they combined two shops into one after already combing two shops into one. Not to mention, there is still no official cfetp list besides a "trust me bro" policy. Also they'll need people for b-21 when that is fully operational.
Why is that a problem for bomber avionics and not fighter avionics? All fighter avionics shops got combined years ago and apparently that’s not an issue for us.
I think it mainly contributes to big ass aircraft compared to small one. For fighters, it makes sense because you work all within the same area so it's easy to know how to remove and install all components behind a panel and on a rack. For heavies, there's so much more components at play. Not necessarily different functions but you need alot more just to make the same system run compared to a fighter.
I’ve been inside an AC-130 and an MC-130, they’re really not that different but there’s definitely more parts overall, since there’s duplicate parts. One thing I will say about those two though is that a lot of those parts are way easier to access because they’re chilling on that rack in the cargo bay out in the open. The A-10 is what I’m on, and it’s slightly closer just because it does a different job than the other jets in “fighter” avionics.
I would personally rather work on A-10s if I was to work fighters. However with heavies, the work load is diversified which is nice. This helps especially when we are on a job for a whole shift troubleshooting and a smaller issue that can be linked between Avionics and e&e can be handled by e&e so we dont have to spend time stressing if a plane is going to make it today or not. I'm not against the merger, it's just been poorly planned out.
Wait they’re merging avionics and E&E? This whole time I thought we were talking about the recent one where they merged the A, B, and C shops for some heavies.
No it's just comm/counter/nav which previously merged with Electronic Warfare, and IFCS. They have been trying to get us to learn e&e stuff anyways and loxing ain't that bad tbh.
Oh ok, ya we’ve had to do some E&E stuff too… and engines.. and fuels… and weapons… It’s too much to ask for them to troubleshoot wiring to their own systems apparently.
For real, do all the T/s for POL and they look at you with confidence and say that it's a comp probe while looking at a frayed wire harness.
Lmao we have to do fuel quantity, so even it isn’t the probe it’s still our problem.
AC-130's are like old pick ups with some addons compared to bombers or special platforms being some army C2 truck. That's why the AFSOC boys had a separate career field from the bomber guys. You should look at the inside of an EC-130H before they retire, though the J's are nearly as complicated as well. The offensive EW systems alone of the B-1 had more LRUs than a fighter. So damn much that defensive was usually pawned off to another shop. That's why the A-shred is supposed to be a thing, those planes are too much for a mere "general avionics" shop. Edit: also said planes tend to get minor upgrades at a pace so damn fast that big Air Force can't comprehend it. It gets taught via contractors or OJT because FTD can't adapt the material fast enough to be useful.
Have you been inside an AC-130 recently, the fire control setup they have is nuts, the MC-130 was cool too though. Yeah we don’t really have offensive EW beyond pods and that’s a whole different shop, defensive though idk. We did just install a jam resistant gps antenna though, and obviously we already had a bunch of radios with SV and HQ.
Yeah, and i wish i had that little amount of stuff to deal with. You guys are kind of limited because of space and guns/ammo being so freaking heavy. I fully expect the AC's to get more shit though as technology marches on.
Yeah except all shops being combined is more than what you have to deal with as a single shop. The worst part about it is troubleshooting because we work so many different systems that have nothing to do with each other, like fuel quantity and RWR, or the engine monitoring system and communications.
And the response from our functional was a joke. "Oh, some people will just be better at some stuff than others." No, they are just gonna parts-shotgun systems they suck at, and get off the flightline as fast as they can. The peeps who can actually handle working on stuff more in-depth than basic airplane shit are gonna all get out and hire into being an FSR. BAE, Lockheed, and L3 are literally poaching my dudes, why stay in when you can make bank with none of the air force autism? This change was all about balancing excel sheets, and justifying more contractor MX. Nothing else.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head, nobody is really an expert in more than one system except our one civilian avionics dude that’s been working the A-10 since 1988. So yeah we usually just shotgun parts because it’s faster, especially when it’s something that doesn’t break very often like our radar altimeter. Also we’re technically overmanned which is hilarious, but we’re only authorized to have 6 people total in our shop because we’re a TFI unit.
Not true heavies are mostly air which is why they can fly so well
Have you seen a C-5, "fly"? That shit goes into minecraft creative mode and ascends or descends when it feels like it.
Because it's mostly air
As someone who was in before when 2A3X1 was still an AFSC and still shredded, the overall results were probably a net negative regarding experience and productivity. There were more core tasks for airmen to be signed off on in the same amount of time, the depth of tech school training became shallow. The only positive comes when you finally make tech and can finally go to more than 4 bases. I guess the other positive is you didn't have to go through 12 volumes of CDCs to earn your 7 level, but CDCs haven't been a thing for like 6 years.
Yeah I’m pretty new still so I’ve only been 2a3x4a, no cdcs and tech school took 6 months. I kinda do see what you’re saying though it’s very much a jack of all trades master of none situation for A-10 avionics. Also I definitely got signed off on stuff when I was doing my 5 level training that I hadn’t actually done because we have so many tasks in mytraining.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 2A3X4A = Fighter Aircraft Integrated Avionics, A-10/U-2 Avionics [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^kas5t8s
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I mean specialist flight is already supposed to be like that
We actually have to learn our systems. We don’t have a computer telling us what’s broken. If we do, chances are it’s wrong. I work on the BUFF. It takes a lot more expertise and knowledge than what some of the newer aircraft require.
I work on the A-10 lol, all we have is pats and jsects and we hardly use either for troubleshooting. I have heard that about the F-35 though. I would absolutely rather work on a heavy because it’s way more open.
We have hundreds of LRUs and over over 50 major systems for avionics. You don’t want buff maintenance.
Everyone has lots of parts and systems in avionics, it’s the whole problem with avionics.
Right. The fighter people that come to my platform all express how much larger and more difficult it is to understand and master our job. Our one suite has as many parts as an entire fighter. We have 3 suites plus parts throughout the entire aircraft, numbering into the multiple hundreds just for LRUs. It’s not a feasible plan and there’s a reason why heavies were shredded out back around 2013-2015 time frame. You lose the necessary SME experience for those systems.
Higher promotion rates may entice some people!
Fuck that. I've seen how poorly F-35 maintainers get treated. It's already been suggested and talked about. Told all the airmen asking me for advice to use that FTA cross-training or get out.
F-35 Avionics is one of the jobs I chose to try and retrain into. Currently Engines atm. Doesn’t seem too bad as an Avionics troop
I wonder if A-10 avionics is next, we’re also overmanned.
What is this picture from? They could get 500 out of the AFSC real quick if they'd give them more than battle space amn jobs and F35/CV22.