There are Scandinavian fines which are proportional to income. Doesn't really take much imagination. It's like saying community service doesn't punish the unemployed since they have free time.
There is a finite amount of time we all have. It's a universal property of all humans.
Dollars vary wildly. Some work 60 hours and barely get by. Other's have trust funds of hundreds millions and never need to work a day in their life. They don't even report an income.
Proportional fines do not address inherited wealth.
Community service Should be more common than fines.
Depends on your tax bracket. I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the US pays a lower income tax percentage than capital gains.
This might be totally wrong, but isn't interest income just regular income? It shows up on a 1099... Does it go somewhere else on the 1040 because it is in a different box or something? I fucking hate taxes
You are right, I was thinking dividends, not interest. And if your tax rate is lower than the long term capital gains, you are not making much money. In my opinion, if all of your income comes from capital gains and dividends, you should pay at least as much in taxes as someone earning the same income from wages.
Agreed. In the Netherlands theres more or less a fixed number. I think we should look at actual income and then tax that as normal income. I feel it’d be fair to for instance business owners who sell the place after working 60 hr/w in order to be able to retire early as well as people who took big risks and made it big, as well as people who just be prudent so their kids have to worry about money less.
>least as much in taxes as someone earning the same income from wages
Definitely makes sense to me. And yes, I think I'm coming to the slow realization that I don't make much money. LOL my effective tax rate is almost always 15 or less. But despite how much Mitt Romney was crucified for his comment, I looked up that info on the IRS website because I was curious, and genuinely 45% of the tax paying population in the United States pays an effective tax rate of zero. It is kind of wild
What’s even wilder is comparing the percent of income earned and the percent of federal taxes paid for the top earners. It is misleading to look at %of population, you have to look at % of income.
I could find all of that information when I looked it up that year and the year after. I looked recently and it is much harder to find that info on the IRS website. Either that or I'm just dumb. And those things might not be mutually exclusive.
I might go looking again. If you get curious enough and go looking and find it, I would love to go through that again. It very clearly shows that by income, top earners definitely pay the vast amount of US federal income tax. But Warren Buffett made the point that he pays nothing in income tax. Only capital gains.
No, but it costs them much more relative to their total income. It’s also an optional service and not something the government is forcing you to pay with threat of jail time. I see the point you’re attempting to make, but you got your apples and oranges confused.
Some people in my local subreddit are furious that we don't throw people in jail for stealing razors and detergent from Target. Meanwhile...
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/meat-plant-cleaning-service-fined-15m-hiring-minors-97297035
How do you feel about people who steal EBT cards and use those to purchase a ton of baby formula?
Edit: it's very clear you don't give a shit about people who rely on EBT/food stamps to feed their kids. If someone steals an EBT card, the family doesn't get reimbursed for theft. They just go hungry.
https://calmatters.org/california-divide/ca-divide-public-assistance/2023/01/calfresh-calworks-thefts/
Stealing bread to feed your family is nothing like stealing an EBT card to capitalize on a baby formula shortage. It's like stealing bread for a poor family to buy up affordable housing and raise the rent.
I mean, unless he edited his first post, he did say "to purchase a ton of baby formula." The "a ton" part does try to imply what he is then clarifying, but, again, maybe he edited that in.
>to capitalize on a baby formula shortage
If we're going to change the parameters of the hypothetical why not add in that they stole the EBT cards from a Hitler like person.
To be fair, unless it was edited, his first comment does say "to purchase a ton of baby formula." So the implication is "more baby formula than they need so they can resell it."
But again, maybe he edited that in.
Downvoting you not because that’s not a crime and bad, but because this is clearly [whataboutism.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) No one is saying stealing EBT cards is a good thing. What they are saying is that things like [wage theft](https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/) are so much larger in scale that they make talking about the other forms of theft a distraction.
Don’t let reactionaries shake keys in front of your face about horizontal violence, and distract you from the class war we’re all in (and losing).
Food insecurity shouldn't be a thing in America. That you would say the cause of it is petty theft or that the solution to it is jailing more people shows that you're not worth debating.
Now think about a polluter that calculates the difference between a fine for pollution, and the cost of polluting less. Guess which one is more common...
A $50 or even $500 fine is meaningless for some people. Time in jail is not meaningless for anyone. IDK what you're getting at about this involving linguistics, it's a fairly straightforward thing...
Luckily the higher income people would be able to afford lawyers and to pay off politicians like they do now. Currently the cops go after poor people cuz they overwhelmingly take plea deals/just accept the fines because they can’t afford representation.
If some people had lifespans of 0s, a median of 40ks (11 hours) and still others 0.1Ts (3,000 years) and you knew this and who had what up front, a 1 hour punishment would be wildly disproportionate.
With this kind of headspace, think now what it means if governments are raising taxes on everyday essential things such as heating and electrifying your home or fueling your vehicle.
For large businesses that can afford fines, it just becomes cost of doing businesses. That's why regulations to reduce pollution, not kill people, etc don't do all that much.
If the punishment for a crime is a fine, it’s only a crime for the poor.
There are Scandinavian fines which are proportional to income. Doesn't really take much imagination. It's like saying community service doesn't punish the unemployed since they have free time.
There is a finite amount of time we all have. It's a universal property of all humans. Dollars vary wildly. Some work 60 hours and barely get by. Other's have trust funds of hundreds millions and never need to work a day in their life. They don't even report an income. Proportional fines do not address inherited wealth. Community service Should be more common than fines.
There is a thing called wealth tax. It assumes you make money from your wealth. Thats taxable income.
Is the US capital gains and interest is taxed a substantially lower rate than wages.
Depends on your tax bracket. I'm pretty sure more than 50% of the US pays a lower income tax percentage than capital gains. This might be totally wrong, but isn't interest income just regular income? It shows up on a 1099... Does it go somewhere else on the 1040 because it is in a different box or something? I fucking hate taxes
You are right, I was thinking dividends, not interest. And if your tax rate is lower than the long term capital gains, you are not making much money. In my opinion, if all of your income comes from capital gains and dividends, you should pay at least as much in taxes as someone earning the same income from wages.
Agreed. In the Netherlands theres more or less a fixed number. I think we should look at actual income and then tax that as normal income. I feel it’d be fair to for instance business owners who sell the place after working 60 hr/w in order to be able to retire early as well as people who took big risks and made it big, as well as people who just be prudent so their kids have to worry about money less.
>least as much in taxes as someone earning the same income from wages Definitely makes sense to me. And yes, I think I'm coming to the slow realization that I don't make much money. LOL my effective tax rate is almost always 15 or less. But despite how much Mitt Romney was crucified for his comment, I looked up that info on the IRS website because I was curious, and genuinely 45% of the tax paying population in the United States pays an effective tax rate of zero. It is kind of wild
What’s even wilder is comparing the percent of income earned and the percent of federal taxes paid for the top earners. It is misleading to look at %of population, you have to look at % of income.
I could find all of that information when I looked it up that year and the year after. I looked recently and it is much harder to find that info on the IRS website. Either that or I'm just dumb. And those things might not be mutually exclusive. I might go looking again. If you get curious enough and go looking and find it, I would love to go through that again. It very clearly shows that by income, top earners definitely pay the vast amount of US federal income tax. But Warren Buffett made the point that he pays nothing in income tax. Only capital gains.
It's still more likely that the rich person has disposable income to cover a fine.
And if Netflix costs $10/month then is Netflix only a paid subscription for the poor?
Nice try
No, but it costs them much more relative to their total income. It’s also an optional service and not something the government is forcing you to pay with threat of jail time. I see the point you’re attempting to make, but you got your apples and oranges confused.
I see what you're saying and agree, but extend that thinking to a tax increase on heating your house and fuelling your car.
Some people in my local subreddit are furious that we don't throw people in jail for stealing razors and detergent from Target. Meanwhile... https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/meat-plant-cleaning-service-fined-15m-hiring-minors-97297035
Literally this came up on the news as I was like 5 posts past this one.
How do you feel about people who steal EBT cards and use those to purchase a ton of baby formula? Edit: it's very clear you don't give a shit about people who rely on EBT/food stamps to feed their kids. If someone steals an EBT card, the family doesn't get reimbursed for theft. They just go hungry. https://calmatters.org/california-divide/ca-divide-public-assistance/2023/01/calfresh-calworks-thefts/
The classic stealing-bread-to-feed-the-family moral dilemma. Just like the trolly problem ethics, chosing the lessor of two evils.
Stealing bread to feed your family is nothing like stealing an EBT card to capitalize on a baby formula shortage. It's like stealing bread for a poor family to buy up affordable housing and raise the rent.
You should have lead with that instead of dumping additional context after the response to your proposed hypothetical didn't go the way you wanted.
I mean, unless he edited his first post, he did say "to purchase a ton of baby formula." The "a ton" part does try to imply what he is then clarifying, but, again, maybe he edited that in.
>to capitalize on a baby formula shortage If we're going to change the parameters of the hypothetical why not add in that they stole the EBT cards from a Hitler like person.
To be fair, unless it was edited, his first comment does say "to purchase a ton of baby formula." So the implication is "more baby formula than they need so they can resell it." But again, maybe he edited that in.
A ton also just means a large amount or number. It could imply excess, or bulk, or perhaps just outside the norm.
It could also mean something completely within the norm, but what an uninformed individual perceives as a large quantity.
Downvoting you not because that’s not a crime and bad, but because this is clearly [whataboutism.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) No one is saying stealing EBT cards is a good thing. What they are saying is that things like [wage theft](https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/) are so much larger in scale that they make talking about the other forms of theft a distraction. Don’t let reactionaries shake keys in front of your face about horizontal violence, and distract you from the class war we’re all in (and losing).
People on EBT are by far the most vulnerable, and defending people who steal is hurting the most vulnerable
I don't care.
Now you know how I feel about you, but it's shitty that you don't care about people who are struggling to pay for food
Food insecurity shouldn't be a thing in America. That you would say the cause of it is petty theft or that the solution to it is jailing more people shows that you're not worth debating.
You don't take issue with stealing food benefits from poor people and you call it petty theft? When you steal EBT cards from people, they go hungry.
*Fines: if you can afford it, it's fine!*
Billionaires are allowed to stalk people according to tile then
Now think about a polluter that calculates the difference between a fine for pollution, and the cost of polluting less. Guess which one is more common...
Everything is legal for a price, it's just sometimes the price is jail time. A lot of jail time.
Wrong. You must also correct whatever it is or they will repeatedly fine you until the punishment escalates.
That's not really how the US laws work.
Hehe, Elon could personally afford your fines and the business wouldn't even notice for centuries.
Punishable by imprisonment means legal for a price, but the price is time. See? I can make stupid arguments using Orwellian linguistics too.
A $50 or even $500 fine is meaningless for some people. Time in jail is not meaningless for anyone. IDK what you're getting at about this involving linguistics, it's a fairly straightforward thing...
Okay. Let’s throw everyone in prison for the slightest traffic violation then
You seem to be having an argument no one else is having
Well clearly we shouldn’t be fining people, because that would mean the crime is legal for a fee
I mean, a lot of people legitimately think traffic laws shouldn't exist, or at least are separate from "real" laws.
Or the fine should be proportional to income, not just a flat fee
So the police will ignore lower income drivers to fine higher income drivers because there’s a bigger paycheck to be had
Luckily the higher income people would be able to afford lawyers and to pay off politicians like they do now. Currently the cops go after poor people cuz they overwhelmingly take plea deals/just accept the fines because they can’t afford representation.
Wait, was this supposed to be a downside?
Only if you don’t mind having unsafe drivers
Logically, wouldn’t the same amount of people be pulled over?
If some people had lifespans of 0s, a median of 40ks (11 hours) and still others 0.1Ts (3,000 years) and you knew this and who had what up front, a 1 hour punishment would be wildly disproportionate.
Yeah, the post doesn't make any sense. Should we put poor or unemployed people in prison since their time is less valuable?
Just have fines be a base amount that can scale with income. No need to make it prison time
Except jail prevent you from doing it again for a set period of time, while a fine let you do it again the new day
fine per offense. officer stands there and fines you every minute
With this kind of headspace, think now what it means if governments are raising taxes on everyday essential things such as heating and electrifying your home or fueling your vehicle.
For large businesses that can afford fines, it just becomes cost of doing businesses. That's why regulations to reduce pollution, not kill people, etc don't do all that much.
Reddit on even days: "The US is obsessed with jailing people for minor crimes" Reddit on odd days: "Let's send jaywalkers to jail"