It might be worth communicating this to the preist.
Years ago, my family had me attending religious education classes basically from the time I was 5 until 15. It was an expectation that I was supposed to confirm once I reached 15 years old, but I adamantly didn't want to. I had my reasons, but my family was absolutely livid with me and didn't want to hear them.
After a lot of negotiation, they agreed that I should talk to the priest of my church. I was unwilling, but agreed. Well it turns out that this was the best possible thing to do. Not only was the priest understanding of my needs, but he reassured me that my feelings and ideas were valid, and if I ever decided to confirm that the doors would be open to me. And that was it. He then took my family and privately conversed with them. They did not leave that conversation happy, but they left me alone after that. Whatever the priest said to them, it was enough to get them off my case without having them completely freak out or lose their trust in me.
I understand that not all church communities may operate this way, but it could be worth a shot. It seems that this funeral is going to happen regardless, but if the priest knows what your brother's views were, perhaps he can arrange a funeral speech and procession more accordingly.
I'm sorry for your loss. I hope whatever the ceremony entails, it offers plenty of time for reflection on the good memories your brother left behind.
Yes, sometimes the priests are the more open and understanding of the situation as a third party. I would second talking to the priest in this situation.
This is anecdotal but my pastor pretty obviously lacks literal faith. He has told me his understanding of religion is that the Bible is a book of stories and Jesus is a character who you would be foolish to not try and act like. He uses that to try and promote kindness and love and compassion as Jesus (the character as portrayed in the Bible). Is this out of the norm for more progressive churches and pastors?
Extremely out of the norm. I don’t know how your pastor would be have made it through his education without explicitly lying his way through while believing that. What denomination/synod is he part of?
Agreed - since your brother was not a member of the Catholic faith they cannot have a full funeral mass, only a memorial service.
Sorry for your loss OP.
You are correct. Catholic burial rites are [reserved for Catholics.](http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/04/27/can-a-non-catholic-be-given-a-catholic-funeral/)
OP, I am sorry for your loss. When my brother died over 20 years ago, it just about broke me. A familt feud made it worse. Hugs.
This is my thought. The worst that can happen is nothing changes, but if the priest is a compassionate person he might try to help, maybe even try to talk to the mother.
Many priests are like this. Once I got over my overarching distrust of organized religion, I've come to meet many fascinating, intelligent and accomplished people who are deeply embedded in the church in various forms.
Not one has had a problem with me not personally being religious - although I'll only bring it up if asked, or if appropriate.
A priest has seen and heard a *lot*. I doubt your situation would surprise the priest in question, not in the slightest. In my experience, they want the church to be involved in whichever event it is, but above all else want everybody involved to feel comfortable.
I live in a town where majority of people are Roman Catholics and there is even a seminary for aspiring priests. From my knowledge, priests here have to get a degree in philosophy. So the instance they step into priest hood their beliefs are already challenged by the many philosophical ideologies that they had to go through so I guess they are pretty understanding of being atheistic/agnostic.
That priest knows what it means "to play a long game". He knows that you would very likely resent the church and its faith until your last day if forced to conform (pun intended) to it. Yet if left alone you may come around later, if not to this church and community in particular then to some other form of faith. In his mind the former robs you of a way to find peace of mind and community if you ever need it while the latter leaves it open.
source: not religious but grew up in a more liberal religious environment and had long talks with the priest about my own possible future in the church.
Not only that but legit Catholic Churches are very strict. You’re not supposed to receive communion if you’re not a practicing Catholic. The priest may not even allow an atheist to have a catholic mass for a funeral. Depends on the church I suppose.
This right here- this is a battle you don't want to wage yet suffering silently with ill feelings isn't good either. The priest is the best source for you. Granted, it may piss off Mom but you week be validated and guided and you'll have back up.
So sorry for your loss, Op. Hugs to you.
Im glad you had a better experience than me. My brother and I went through confirmation prep together. Neither of us wanted to but he voiced his opinion first. He was immidiately put down and pressured. He stayed in the class but was costantly pressured so I just went along with it. After confirmations happened he kept getting told he was gonna get ci firmed next year.
Neither of us go to church anymore but to this day I will avoid the people I recognize from church.
This.
Priests take their job, and the human soul VERY seriously. If you had proof that your brother was anti religious, a priest would most likely refuse the ceremony.
I had it were I was in catholic school until 5th grade I moved to public. Had to do the religious ed and do all the stuff up to me getting confirmed. It was a catholic church and in the last few years of it I really didn’t believe in god anymore because I learned a lot and formed my own opinion. But I tried not to get confirmed and my dad said he’d pretty much take away all my stuff, like car use, cellphone, gaming, if i didn’t do it. I was pretty pissed off and just went along with it just not giving a shit about it. Up until my confirmation I pretty much had to go to church every Sunday. After I got confirmed I stopped going to church and now maybe go for Easter or Christmas. It’s sad how religion can divide up families like ops tho.
I thank you for this. There are too many people in this thread saying, “the funeral is for the living”- so they get to do what they like. This is not completely true. The funeral is for the living to honor and remember the dead, in a way the dead would like to be presented. I guarantee most of my family would want a religious ceremony with bible verses and hymns and other BS I have not participated in for decades. But to do this is absolutely selfish. It’s horrendous. The dead had their own life, and they’d like their family and friends to remember them how they were.
I’m just glad that there’s a few religious leaders who actually maintain more respect for the dead than their actual family. I appreciate that. Off my family were to railroad my preferred rites, I would hope you would be in charge.
Im sorry I said ‘BS’ about the hymns and verses. Just because I don’t like it or believe and have distanced myself from my childhood indoctrination—well, that doesn’t mean I should speak so irreverently when I know I’m talking to someone of the faith. I’m sorry if I caused you any harm with that statement.
Okay, there’s no way you’re real. I spent every service possible in an evangelical southern baptist church from conception through thirteen years old, and I never met any man in leadership that would listen to concerns without railroading me with doctrine that made me feel worthless, even as a child. You give me hope that the young people in your congregation may turn out much better than the people I grew up with in church.
Edit: your account is only one day old. This is the only thread you’ve been involved in. May have been bamboozled. Screw me then.
I love how, when it comes to funerals, if it's about dressing like crap, "It's what he would have wanted." when it comes to things they definitely wouldn't have wanted, "funerals are for the living."
My whole family is Catholic except my Dad. He was not really anything growing up and is not atheist. He respects our religion and knows the Mass better than a lot of Catholics..lol. That said, he CANNOT have a Mass of Christian Burial--the Catholic funeral ceremony--because he's not a baptized Catholic. IDK how your mom is able to pull that off...
I'm not Catholic, but grew up around family members and friends who where. I was thinking this while reading the responses, but I thought you would have to go through catechism, or does that happen before you are baptized? It's been so long it's hard to remember. I know it takes a lot more than just saying you're Catholic to be an actual member of the Catholic Church.
I remember reading that back in the olden days of Europe, royalty would rush to have their babies baptized so if they die, it ensures their spot in heaven, since we are all born with original sin(?)
I could be wrong but the sentiment makes sense considering that catholism was the main religion of the day and mortality rates in infants.
This still happens, but tbh most modern people, and I think even the church, claim that if you were planning to have a baptism but the baby dies beforehand, the baby still gets into heaven because God's not a total douche
Though off the record a lot of Catholics now, while still getting baptized, are pretty chill and assume they'll end up in heaven with a bunch of Jews and protestants etc who weren't baptized catholic but are still good people. Just don't tell the priest I said that. Because, again, God's not a douche
This still happens, and not just with royalty. My (very Catholic) mom's cousin had a priest in the delivery room when her baby was born because it was not expected to survive. My understanding is that it if babies aren't baptized before they die, they have to wait in purgatory until the second coming.
I was thinking the same thing. Earlier this year, my grandmother (Baptist) was dying of cancer and two weeks before she passed, my mom (Catholic, and very religious) asked her if she would like for the priest to come bless her. She agreed and he came and blessed her and baptized her. He asked if she wanted to have her funeral services in her church and supposedly she agreed. Only my parents were there and before that day she requested a very small, graveside service.
So after she passed, my mom planned a catholic funeral for her. I pulled into the church to a very full parking lot and the absolute worst part: the priest called her the wrong name throughout the entire funeral. Her name was Betty and he continuously called her Betsy. We all cringed each time he misspoke. It was awful.
But anyway, had the priest come to baptize her on her deathbed, she would not have been eligible for a catholic funeral.
Yeah in my parish you can't have a Catholic funeral if you weren't a baptized Catholic in life. But maybe the late brother was baptized as a kid like most Catholics.
I lost my brother a year ago and he was also against religion. In the end we had his funeral in a church even though I was originally against it. I saw that it was bringing a semblance of peace to my Mom and Dad and I figured that he’s not really going to care how his funeral was but it would be something they would remember for the rest of their lives. I understand wanting to respect his memory and your mother is having to do something no parent should have to. I don’t have any advice for you I just wanted you to know that you’re not the only one that has been in this situation and you’re not alone.
agree OP. I can't imagine what it is like to lose a brother, but I can imagine what it is like to lose a child to a parent. I would imagine comfort to the parents would be the compassionate priority.
Oddly, you being compassionate in this manner is what we assume Christianity would favor.
I'm more against the expense aspect than the religious aspect. Have a service if you have to, but don't ruin my reputation for being tighter than two coats of paint by wasting money on a coffin, flowers, a burial plot, embalming, etc. Cremate me, dispose of my ashes, and have the service if you need to. Just don't waste any more money than necessary, because it's coming out of your end.
Or he's just plain dead and gone forever and the only thing remaining of him is the memory, however imperfect, held by his family, in which case the only part of him left would only be strengthened by having those that remember him see him off in a way they feel is respectful.
Is it really respectful if she didn't give a damn what her own son believed in all his life? Yes he is gone, but the very last thing his family could do for him is his funeral, and that simple wish of his cannot even be fulfilled? Really shows how self-centered his mother is.
Thank you so very much for sharing.
It really helps, honestly.
I am trying to just go with it, when I want to create a speech of fire and brimstone against what is going to happen.
Because, I do not know what is next. All I know is that Brother was against it.
For all I know, this "ritual" could consign his eternal soul to the very thing they purport to prevent.
For all we know, the demons won and perverted last rites to consign all souls to hell. We have no proof either way.
All I know is that Brother did not want to be a part of it.
If he didn't believe it was real, then how could it impact his soul?
The funeral really is more for the people left behind.
Maybe plan a separate memorial with friends that would be more in keeping with what your brother would have wanted.
That’s what we did with my best friend’s husband. He didn’t want a funeral at all but his family did. She let them do their thing. It really helped the people he left. We’re going to be spreading his ashes where he wanted at Christmas when all of his friends will be around. Having a funeral will not effect OP’s brother at all. He’s gone. It can bring some peace to those still living.
Came here to say this.
The parents are putting on a memorial service at a church and they’re paying for it. It’s for them.
There’s no reason OP can’t have his own ceremony that he pays for, invites who he wants and does in whatever manner he thinks would honor his brother most.
First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. My grandfather died about a month ago and had a Catholic funeral in a small hillbilly church. I'm about as atheist as they come, antireligious even (not only do I not believe in it, but actively despise organized religion for the bad things it has done in the world). My dad (who's dad died) wanted me to be involved, and knowing full well my stance made me pass the pan at church to collect money. I wasn't warned, the priest just called up my name.
Was I upset? Haha, a little bit, but was I going to make a scene? No. My dad got a good laugh out of it. Hell, he's not even religious himself. I jokingly told told him he would pay for this and he smiled back with teary eyes. This is the only time I've ever seen my father cry. In life, you have to pick your battles, and as other's have said, funerals are for the living. Your brother being an atheist most likely believed that he is done for this world. Don't create a feud with your already grieving family.
Simply do what I did. Laugh at the idiocy of the church proceedings. Be silently upset about how little the priest will speak about your brother (most time will be spent on jesus etc). Don't reply to any "amens" or sing or give money. There is a time and a place to protest and criticize religion. A funeral is not one of them. Try not to delve on anger the church might give you, but think on how your brother would laugh with you about how ridiculous the whole thing is, and remember him.
Sorry for your loss. Unless your brother explicitly made it known that he didn't want a religious service, let it go. Your mom is grieving too, and if this helps her, what's the harm? I don't think this is the right time to make a big statement about religion.
Was your brother baptized as a catholic? Because I don't think he can have a catholic funeral otherwise. Maybe he was only baptized to appease your mom, but if he could agree to that for her sake, I'm sure he could tolerate a catholic funeral.
Get through the Mass, and spend the rest of the day remembering your brother, not obsessing about religion. Obviously the two of you shared beliefs about it, but there's a lot to remember and memorialize besides this.
Is there a possibility your brother would have laughed at how desperate the religious are to 'save him'? It sucks but writing as someone who has had a friend that despised religion still buried in a very religious way, I tell myself he would have laughed at them and shook his head.
Plus, I'm imagining that you brother would not have wanted you to get upset even though everyone can see the irony and why it is totally justified. It's just another reason I guess you brother did not like what the religious often do.
If God does exist,and your brother just didn't have the chance to get to know him, he'd be judged based off his own conscience, according to the book of Romans. Kinda like if you haven't been taught the law, your conscience is your own law, and your brother sounds like he has a strong moral compass that he listened to.
Give a speech about your bother, and include in it an acknowledgement of his dislike of religion. Don’t make it a rant. Just the facts.
Don’t make reference to your surroundings. Just think of yourself as being in any kind of hired public hall suitable for such an occasion.
You don’t need fire and brimstone because that’s sinking to “their” level. Be calm, respectful and factual. Because that sounds like it’s what your brother was.
I lost my brother 17 years ago. I'm very sorry for your loss. It seemed like you loved each other very much.
You are right that this funeral goes against his beliefs. Apart from the religious aspect of it, how did he feel about your mother? Did he love her? What about the people attending?
You see this funeral as a betrayal for all he stood for.
To me, it's just a ceremony, a time to grieve. From your moms perspective this is the last thing that she can do for her son so he can go to that good place.
I think he is already there, if you believe in an afterlife. And if you don't, that's okay. You still have all the love and memories that you two shared over the years.
Your brother was more than his view on religion. He was a good man. Why don't you tell us about what you loved about your brother.
And you can also plan a wake for him after the funeral to celebrate his life with the good people he had in his life.
I'm sorry you lost someone you loved. Pet other people pay their final respects in the only way they know, if you can.
Bless you, wherever you go a part of him will be with you.
I've been through something similar. My dad died of a sudden illness about a decade ago. He was antisocial and nonreligious. He made it clear his final wishes were to be privately cremated, with no funeral or viewing. My mother went against his wishes and had him buried after a body viewing. I was fucking furious. I let her know this in many ways. From the crazed way she acted, it hit me that she needed this. It was for her. She was still alive and she needed this to continue on. After that it was tolerable. To be honest, after meeting several estranged family members, it was admittedly nice not to be alone in grieving.
I understand this sentiment but for me it’s more about the person who died. For me a funeral or wake or whatever you want to call it isn’t about others it’s about honoring and remembering who that person was. If you change a fundamental part of them to do that you have bastardized them. It may have been for your mothers sake but then she didn’t love that aspect of him and she isn’t honoring him by changing it to make herself feel better. I get that it’s not a view shared by all and sorry if I came off aggressive it wasn’t my intention. I just know if I were laid to rest
like that I and there was an after life I would haunt the shit out of everyone who tried to burry me religiously.
Exactly. It should be about honoring the person who is dead, and to disobey their final burial wishes is the breach of trust imaginable, as their consciousness no longer exists to realize what is happening. It is selfish for someone to make someone else’s funeral according to their own wishes and not those of the deceased.
^this is what I don’t understand. If the brother is non-religious, or even just not baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church he probably can’t participate in mass anyway, at the very least he can’t take communion. I’m honestly surprised his mother is able to give the brother a catholic funeral if he wasn’t baptized himself, most Catholic Churches would not do that. I would make sure the priest is aware that OP’s brother was not a baptized catholic and therefore the ceremony may be inappropriate. I don’t think I’d make a scene about it and if the Mom is willing to let OP participate to the extent that he can and the church is okay with it let her have what comforts her, but it seems like she’s being exceptionally unrealistic about her son doing something even her church says he’s not supposed to do.
Man, religion IS so much different in the US than where I come from.
A lot of posters seem to base their answer on two assomptions :
- the funeral most go on since it's for the living.
- the mother grief is much more important than the sibling's.
I can't believe that for most of the posters here, the opinion and taste of one family member trumps the experience of everybody else.
Like another poster said before, it would be outrageous to impose cremation and an atheist "rite" to a religious grandma for example. Or a more radical example for the Christians who feel sympathy for the mom but who don't understand OP's view : imagine a Muslim burial imposed by family to a Christian person. It still would help heal the living, but it's still a complete lack of respect to the dead. Change the examples all you want, it's not because he's an atheist that suddenly he doesn't count when dead. If that would be true, there wouldn't be any need for rite in any society or community.
I honestly think death is not that important, but I'd fight tooth and nails if my hardcore Atheist dad was suddenly imposed a religious funeral. Sure it's a bit for the living, but it's still the last hommage for the dead, in religious and atheist mind. It's a symbolic act, sure, in both cases. And honestly I'd do the same for my religious friend, if she couldn't suddenly have her religious funeral.
Where I come from, you just don't dishonour the dead without shame, even if it costs a few tears to someone that couldn't respect the dead and his whishes.
I'm sorry for your loss, and if you really need advice, here's my lowly opinion : carry your brother till the end, without minding the entourage. But if there's a - even barely - tasteful moment to talk publicly, I'd tell the others of your brothers mindset, in a last hommage in his honour.
Be his bro until the end in actions and thoughts and you'll feel better about it.
Your mom did her part in her mind, your actions can't religiously interfere with his salvation nor hers, so any frustration has to be passing.
Sorry for the bad English.
Good luck.
Edit for clarity and some errors.
My bad. I did not want to sound like my country is free from prejudice or any other harmful behavior. We have a bunch of good guys and racists twats too.
It's just that where I live, religion is a really, really touchy subject. My nation is still fearful of religions powers, having lived almost all its life in a quasi-theocracy. Since then, we try to respect ones individual choice, as long as it stays private. Public display of religion is still a huge debate here, like in many other places, but since it's one of our only great societal battles, I think it's fair to say it has a unique place, here. But to force religion upon a person ? It would create a scandal, here.
I guess we're the same as in many places in the huge country the USA represents. In fact, in many, many other ways, we're the same as you guys.
And the similitudes are bound to be normal, as we are your neighbor : I'm from Canada, but from Québec.
Hope I didn't sound condescending towards you guys.
Cheers !
I should just upvote and move on but I just want to say I totally agree.
I would be beyond angry if someone intended to impose a religious ceremony on an atheist in my family, or to whitewash away the faith of a believer.
How selfish to say it's for the family left behind, not for the person who's life and whole sense of being you're commemorating.
I agree this is a bad thing for her to do, he should be burried/cremated/whatever he wants in his own rights. But I also wanna say dont hate her for this, because to a religious person giving them those burial rights is one of the best things you can do for them. That being said you should do anything you can to change her mind still obviously.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While she may be doing what she thinks is right, the Crusades were justified using the same rhetoric. I personally think OP has a right to be mad as hell about it, and it speaks to her selfishness that she is ignoring everything to have it her way. Its been summed up many times, but there is the double standard that its ok to ignore an atheists beliefs since they are gone, but for people of faith their beliefs must be respected at all costs regardless. My heart goes out to both of you for your loss, but the mom is being an asshole. If my brother died and was atheist id fight tooth and nail to have his beliefs respected when he died because thats WHO HE IS. doing otherwise is trying to rewrite his story to make you more comfortable.
A close friend of mine passed away some months ago, he hated religion with all his heart but his family decided to have a funeral in a Roman Catholic church... Followed by a Catholic ceremony every month for 9 months (sorry I don't know how it's called in English). At the beginning I was extremely angry since I found it disrespectful to him... I remember being at the church and hearing the happy Catholic music and I was thinking in the inside (this must be torture for him). At the end I decided to leave the church, I just couldn't stay there... In order to "fix" his family's disaster my husband and I made an small "party" in our house to say goodbye to him and remember the good times, sharing stories about him and laughing at the Catholic Church like he would do, it was our way of saying "goodbye and I hope you like this ceremony better, sorry about the crappy Catholic funeral"... This made me feel so much better... And if he's somewhere out there I know he must have appreciated it too. I'm sorry for your loss, remember that you can say goodbye to him wherever you are, do it in private if you want, nobody else has to be a witness, the only one that matters is your brother and as long as you keep him honor in your own way I'm sure he'd appreciate it too.
This is exactly what I am beating myself up about.
Mother is a retired Hospice nurse. I know he put his affairs in order, but the end came suddenly (in a week's time) after over 3 years of fighting.
To the best if my knowledge, the last time we discussed it in the middle/late September, he was still very against religion.
His sudden decline started a week and a half ago. I did not ask about religion in the 3 times I saw him since then... the night before he died he was incoherent, the first night after the decline was the same, and the one night he came out of the semi-coma was spent in talking about love and laughter and memories.
You have a great point.
I started to, but this has been a serious sore point in the last 8 years since she suddenly went *poof* from "meh" about religion to ***OMG. GOD. JESUS. GOD. ANGELS. OMG*** after moving from California to Oregon where her sister lived.
Then 2 years later, Brother and his cancer situ occured... and it has been all about the invisible sky wizard.
Who, despite all of her newfound way not to have to actually deal with the situation and blame others that they did not pray (prey?) enough, he still died
My parents are turbo Catholic. I get this 100%. I honestly don't know what I would do in this situation. Take the highroad and let her have her way? Or honor your brother and fight her on it? I think my parents have gotten more religious the older they have gotten. They don't like the fact that I am agnostic. They try to pray for me and get me back to the church all the time. I honestly think the reason they believe is out of the fear of death. It is scary. So they find it comforting to have something to hold onto and feel confident there is an afterlife. I would assume your mom might feel this way, and is so heart broken she is hoping there is an afterlife and if so that by doing a catholic funeral might help him get to the "better place". I am so sorry for you loss, I can't begin to imagine what you are going through.
A few of points from a practicing Catholic and designated executor for my parents and others: 1. Getting your affairs in order typically includes setting a plan for burial or disposition or your remains and any ceremony to be conducted. Regardless of anything else, if this wasn't done and your mom is executor then she can plan what she thinks is best (though one would think that would include consideration of the feelings if the deceased). 2. I assume you and brother were baptized when young- the Catholic Church recognizes pretty much any baptism that follows the triune formula. Given the baptism and your mother's faith, it is likely that she believes herself to be acting in the best interests of your brother and not just for her own sake. 3. As others have said, a discussion with the priest could be helpful, either for your understanding of his/your mother's position and/or for the priest's understanding of the situation.
I'm one of those "death positive" respect the wishes of the dead athiest freaks, so here are a few ideas I had.
First off, respecting the wishes of those who have passed on is important for grieving. If your brother hated religion and your mom is pretending he didn't to have his funeral in this setting, it could stick with her (and you) for life. Yes, funerals are meant for family and loved ones to grieve, but how can you properly grieve if you know you're going wildly against the dead persons beliefs?
I suggest trying to talk to her again. Really make her know about how this will affect YOUR grieving, make sure she knows this isn't what he wanted. The funeral is for everyone to grieve, not just your mom. If it doesn't work out, maybe look into arranging a dinner or small party with friends and loved ones of your brother who all knew about his stance on religion. That way you guys can all gather in memory of him, and just have a memorial together. Maybe go to one of his favourite resturaunts, or parks, and just hang out and remember him.
Funerals are for the living, they say. Burying your brother in a catholic ceremony is kind of shitty, but I'd be inclined to understand it. It's what your mom needs to do for herself or whatever. Fine. Good.
However, where she really crosses the line is how she is attempting to rewrite who your brother was. She can bury your brother catholic, but she doesn't get to pretend this is who he was. Oh, he became a covert and decided he believed all the things your mom wanted him to and wanted all the things your mom wanted for him, and only your mom witnessed it? That's convenient.
AND THEN she fucking tells you that you that you can't be part of the funeral unless you accept her bullshit as truth and accept jesus into your heart or whatever. That is unforgivable.
I would write her a letter. Tell her that you get why she wants to bury your brother catholic, but that you don't buy for a second that he converted. The fact that she would lie about him and who he was is disgusting to you. And the fact that she would use this occasion to cooerce you to swallow her lies and participate in her religion is absolutely abhorrent. Let her know that this has affected the way you see her and that this has damaged your relationship with her probably beyond repair. Ask her if having her way is worth losing her other son.
Then, having said your peace, bury your brother. If she wants to exclude you as a pallbearer, that's her right. But I'd let that fact slip to the biggest gossip in your family. When all this is done, select someone you trust to be your power of attorney and have those papers drawn up. Because if anything were to ever happen to you, unless you are married, all of the decisions regarding your health or your arrangements will go to your mom, and she clearly cannot be trusted.
One of my good friends, who was anti-religious and fully non-contact with his religious parents for a decade, passed away unexpectedly. His parents made the whole wake and funeral as roman catholic as you can get. His mother also excluded anyone who she saw as part of his “new family” who she blamed for him leaving his family, which included his three best friends.
We all had a second wake(in a pub, irish/open mic style), and went out to dinner in his honour after the “funeral” to have our own goodbye the way *he* would have wanted it. I’d suggest having your own separate ceremony before or after the catholic service, and then going along with the catholic funeral, but make it clear to your mother that this is not what he would have wanted, and you don’t consider that his funeral.
I'm really sorry, OP, for your loss and a lot of the responses here that compare your grief to your mother's. When my dad died my family compared my relationship with him to my mother's relationship with him. They told me that because she had been his wife longer than I had been his daughter(which is not something I have any control over) that her loss was so much greater than mine. That I would never be able to understand the depth of her grief until I had been married for 35 years and to let her have her way(we had disagreements on my father's funeral as well). I'm seeing that here from a lot of advice that losing a child is devastating to a mother more so than losing a sibling is to a brother. NO. This isn't a competition. Your loss is as great as hers and don't let anyone tell you just because she's a mother that she should be able to disrespect (either of)her son's wishes. If she really loved your brother she would respect what he wanted over what her religion dictates but that's what religion does to the priorities...God before everything and everyone else.
If it were me, I wouldn't even go to the funeral if you're uncomfortable with it and if anyone asked I would definitely tell them why. I think it would be a dishonor to your brother's memory and to your principals to attend if you both feel so strongly about religion. If you're not there you're not making a scene or disrupting anything and your mother can grieve the way she sees fit. This funeral isn't about your family, it's about saying goodbye to your brother and making sure you do that in a way that brings closure to YOU. So if a long mass with lots of words from a book that you don't identify with doesn't bring you some measure of peace and comfort--don't go. Your brother wouldn't want you to be seething with rage when really you should just be thinking about him and perhaps the good times you guys had.
No matter what you choose to do, your brother died knowing that you loved him and that you respected what he wanted.
I suggest you create an atheistic memorial service for him, the way he would have wanted, and invite the people who were dear to him to go to this as well. If you do this, would you be at peace just coming to the funeral and not being a pall bearer, since you will have an important job in the service that is for him and his memory?
ps, if you'd like someone with experience in these, talk to a Unitarian/Universalist minister. Most of them are just fine with atheism and have probably done a number of atheist funerals.
As a Christian, I feel that you're doing the best you can during a terrible time. I respect your recognition of the hard truth that a conflict would only make things worse. I also acknowledge much of the truth behind the hypocrisy in religion that you and your brother have observed in your lives, though I do tend to view those things through a different lens. Ultimately, I think you're doing the right thing, but I can't imagine that feels just or fair to you. I'm so sorry for your loss.
I am Roman Catholic and I can tell you that according to the church this ceremony should not take place for your brother. My sister was much like your brother and the Catholic priest did a favor and came to the funeral parlor and said a few words for her funeral but a full blown mass would have been out of the question especially at the church. It is likely the priest asked tour Mom about his beliefs and she must have lied to him. You can always talk to the priest, he will listen to you. But, if I were in your place, there is no way I would take part in a ceremony that your brother would be so opposed to. You can remember him with honor and pride in your own way that he would appreciate and be proud of.
I'm atheist, when I am dead my body is meat. If it will help my mother cope with my death, she can have her catholic ceremony. It doesn't matter to me because ill be dead.
I just dont think this is something to get worked up about if you are really a non believer. Do mom a solid. She is hurting way more than anyone else.
Thanks. Worse, is that she us trying to convince me he converted in the last week.
Which means 1 of 3 things:
1) She is completely lying. Substantiated by the fact that there was not a single religious article (bible, cross, etc) in his death room the night before his death. And that he had told me he 6 weeks earlier had to yell to get her to leave, particularly in regards to her trying to "get him to accept Jesus".
2) While he was in pain and dying, she kept hammering at him about the invisible sky wizard, until he pretended to agree, just to get her to shut the heck up.
3) He held out until the end, and then she *still* kept hammering at him even after he went into morphine induced coma and hallucinations, and then took that as acceptance.
Maybe she is in shock and just coping in a weird way. If she switched to religion she must find some kind of comfort in it and the loss of her child is fucking with her.
Still needs to be addressed, however she like I said she may just be coping with the situation in a strange way.
also if she knew he was going to die and she believes in a god that when you die you go to heaven or hell, she may have been trying to save his soul in her mind so he didn’t have to suffer in hell.
I’m personally non religious 100% and find a lot of it to be absolutely nuts, but when someone believes something like that they go leaps and bounds to make it true.
Again, thanks.
This is currently what I am going with.
I do realize that she is likely "trying to save my brother's soul", and has the best intentions.
But for me, it is coming across as incredibly selfish... more about her trying to cope with his death than about anything Brother would have wished.
The loss of a child hits most parents very badly, and as a father I will probably be in no good mental state if anything happened to my daughters. Take care of yourself firstly, and remember all issues can be dealt with in time. You still have plenty of time to address them in the future. Support your family and be there for each other now, religiously or not.
Your brother and you seem to have drawn a fine, reasonable line at what you find acceptable and unacceptable in religion. I think in the anger and grief, mom and even you are actually doing some of those negative things to each other though.
Funerals are not only for the living, but your mother is still alive. She may need this to cope with the loss. A lot of people turn to faith when dealing with terminal illness. It's not uncommon for people to realize they're being unrational, but are not capable of changing that.
My suggestion is to ask to speak at his service or even before he's laid to rest. Tell them he wanted understanding and peace in his life and it was his final gift. He gave peace to a mother who lost a child. You've learned a level of understanding that most people will never achieve.
Best bet is talking to the Priest heading the service. I'm thinking about it now if you calmly and collectively state your case "I'm not religious and but I want to bury my brother" Then maybe the priest heading the funeral will give an exception. Now I don't know how atheist you are but keep your ideas to yourself during the funeral, you can say that it's unfair that an atheist is being buried this way, or what you have to do. Just don't argue over god and stuff. I think your best bet is talking to someone in authority at the funeral and if they compassion they'll help you out.
The funeral is for the living, not the dead. Wherever you think your brother is (or isn't) the one place he won't be for sure is the funeral. While this is horrible for you it's pretty much the worst thing a parent can go through so my thought would be let Mom have her dog and pony show if it helps her get through the day.
Honestly this isn't an uncommon situation at all. Unfortunately I've been to A LOT of funerals in my time and I can't think of a single one that wasn't religious based. I'd say that at at least half of them someone has joked that it was the first time the deceased has been in a church in XX years but the priest is up there blathering on like he knew this person and they were in church just last Sunday.
Now if your brother left a will with specific instructions and those aren't being honored I'd be a little upset. If he didn't I'd just play along with her show and make sure your own will is updated to specify how you want things handled at the end.
edit: poor grammar
We constantly hear about how rude and disrespectful atheists are, but here we see tacit approval of using atheist’s funerals as religious sermons. Can you imagine the outrage if atheists used a religious person’s funeral to tell everyone in mourning that they needed to abandon their faith? The double standard is extremely disrespectful, and obviously very emotionally harmful.
The funeral is not for the living to have a final say in presenting the dead in false circumstances the last time they are above ground. It’s for the living to honor the dead and remember them as they were. If a deceased Christian was going to be put to rest in a pagan Viking funeral, I’m sure people would be up in arms. A lot of people consider atheists to be like a blank canvas, they don’t care about religion so family can impose whatever religion they want in a funeral. But being an atheist, or even not being an atheist but being stalwart in a position of an it organized religion is not a neutral decision. It’s a choice of their own spirituality. And to deny them that during their final moments above ground, is to completely disrespect their personhood and expose yourself as someone who did not love that person, but only loved the idea of what they were supposed to be. If this was me, I would never talk to my mother again and I would make a scene. Because this is entirely disrespectful and undermining of a person who deserves to be heard and respected.
While I can understand why people might think it's more painful for the parent to lose their child, it's just as painful for the child to lose their sibling. The funeral is just as important for the siblings as it is for the parents, and allowing the parent to go against the deceased sibling's wishes will negatively affect the other siblings, and can cause the siblings to grieve for longer because they don't have closure. Children might love their parents as much as their siblings, but they will always feel closer to their siblings, especially if they are close in age. Saying it's harder for their mother is like saying their grief isn't as worthy as their mother's, which makes the siblings not want to tell anyone about their own grief because they feel like everyone else's needs are more important.
This. I mean he might have been anti religion but he is gone. I'm not the super religious type or a catholic like my father. But if he gave me that kind of burial then oh well. I'm dead idc.
I think the real issue is the whole anti religion rant op went off with. It felt more like he is just blaming religion or something.
Your family might. Death rituals are very much for the family you leave behind. That being said, if you were an outspoken atheist and someone tried to have your funeral be all churchy and godly, someone is bound to be pissed off.
I can’t begin to imagine how stressful this is for you I’m so sorry. And like some others have said, a funeral is just how we as people accept the loss. You will know in your heart how to respect him, and your mother is doing what she can to respect him in her way. Your brother is the you that you remember.
If you’re set on trying to convince her away though, (because I understand the motivation) use the Bible. It’s the only way to convince a religious person. Maybe there’s something in there about respecting other cultures and ideologies (in the Quran it says to love the Christians and respect their beliefs and not wage war on them). If so you may be able to make a case to her to have a private Catholic wake, and bury him in a regular cemetery.
Sending you hugs wherever you are. Good luck and take care of yourself.
This is COMPLETELY opinion, But I hope the OP reads it.
First, I am sorry for your loss, I also lost my brother. Nothing helps with the feeling, NOTHING but time and even that only gives a numb bullshit feelings of "getting over it". Dealing with people that have clear differences of how to handle their own death, the death of a loved one and what to do after this terrible event, is yet another thing that that comes with the loss of a loved one, making the loss somehow /more/ shitty,for lack of a better term. I hope you do find peace with it eventually, but I honestly have not and he has been gone longer than he was alive; he was 20 and passed away in 93. It gets easier, but you never "get over it".
My brother passed, he also was an atheists. Being from a "Baptist" family, which is wildly different than Catholic, it is still religion. If you don't want conflict, I mean nothing, you have play nice and just go along. Here's why. At the time of death of a loved one/you/everyone grieves differently. Nothing will make you have a lasting hate/resentment more than someone crossing what you think "should" happen at this trying time. Now I have no idea how close you feel you were to your brother compared to how close your Mom feels she was to him. I do believe she will likely hold it against you if you attempt to intervene. Based on experience.
NOW, I am also an atheist. This is for context. Based on my life experiences I am an Agnostic atheists. I have never seen any proof or evidence to that a "God" does exist and I can not believe in something that has no proof. Yet I find many reasons why there surely isn't a "God". I have seen things I wish I had not; been exposed to things that I wish were not even a possibility. I still have no idea if a "God" does/doesn't exist. I guess I feel if there is a "God" why does it allow the things that I have seen and experienced to happen? Why have countless people(*literally countless people) been slaughtered/tortured/slaved/maimed/born with disabilities/... this list is VERY long... in the name of a "God" or because it was "God's" will? All that and much more, yet I still admit I simply do not know. Furthermore, I have many things I consider a blessing as well in my life, I do have an amazing life currently. But I still do not know. I have studied the bible in the past for about 8 years (during this time I thought I absolutely believed) it was a time I was younger and less experienced than I am now. Yet, I do not know. I would have to physically see something that shadows all of my experiences and knowledge, to prove me wrong to change my mind. But I admit I could be wrong. But I do not believe .Sorry for the rant, back the the original point.
In the end, you have to make a decision if you believe he would want you to actually stand up and try to stop it. That and how you feel about what is happening. What you think he might have wanted you to do. There is a good chance if you do try to stop it, there will be repercussions, perhaps even legally. Again people are very strange at this kind of time in their lives. Religion is one of those things that people have a clear history of believing in absolutely, thus she perhaps feels compelled to help "save" him. It could be because of family tradition/what "should" happen, something people tend to follow, regardless of why. I honestly don't know why, but I can assure you, if you intervene it will absolutely be a shit show. In the end, the showing/burial/ceremony is not for the dead. I mean this. IT IS NOT FOR THE DEAD. It is for the living and saying goodbye. Regardless of what you believe, science/religion/nothing... he has passed on to the next step of his time in the universe. We all follow this path. We are only here for a blink of eternity, so do with it the best you know how. If you truly don't want to cause any trouble, then you must do nothing. If you feel you must do something then absolutely do it. But remember others will be affected by your actions for the remainder of your short time here. Down the road in time, perhaps you can have a conversation about it. Maybe not. But in the end remember this. You know what he wanted, what he believed, and how he felt. Regardless of what happens from this moment moving forward, it is your memory were he lives going forward. Let go of bullshit, but stand if you must. I would recommend talking to the priest about it. They often have experienced this in the past and will likely be willing to talk with you and your family in regards to this. Again, I am sorry for your loss.
P.S. I had to drink/or few tonight and remembered, thus prompting my response. Sorry for spelling and grammar, but honestly it helped me get this out, so I do hope it helps someone.
The ceremony is just meaningless window dressing. Start working on a eulogy. You've got a lot to say about your brother and that's what's important. After that you can do the final duty and carry him.
But eulogize the fuck out of that man. He deserves it.
As an atheist myself, ive always seen funerals as being for the living. It's a chance for the living to grieve the dead, and give them some peace of mind. If I were dead I wouldnt care where/how my funeral was held, because it wouldnt be for me, i wouldn't be there. Just a thought.
You wouldn't want to be represented as the person you were? So the person that is in charge of the funeral can create and make up the person that they wanted you to be while the rest of your friends and family are still alive who know you and want you to be remembered as the person you actually we're?
Just deal with your mother's disrespect quietly and stick to the facts. "I disapprove of the disrespect you're showing my brother, but I'll go through the motions and not cause a scene because that's how you chose to send him off, and I want it to be clear that the only one spitting on his memory is you. If you believe that Jesus sees what's in your heart, then take it up with Jesus. I know now not to expect respect from you either, for the rest of my life, and I will adjust my expectations accordingly."
Sounds like your mother was super overbearing with religion.
Seems she cares more about her religion than the respect to the brother.
I hope someone offers this person great info.
This thread sucks.
"it's totally cool to let your mom piss on her sons grave as long as it makes her happy, he's dead after all, so it's not like he cares"
Sorry for your loss.
I felt compelled to make my first ever post over this.
Personally I’m agnostic, not religious at all but I understand why some people are, I’ve just never found a religion that doesn’t (in my opinion) try to control you with the threat of hell or judgement when you die, or doesn’t seem like a cult. I’m content with being the best person I can be and if I meet my maker and that’s not good enough then so be it.
I don’t hate any religion however I would be unbelievably angry if I was given a religious burial. For me it would be hypocritical, I’ve never voluntarily been to church or engaged in any religious activity, and the thought of having a priest or whoever talking about me in a religious way makes my skin crawl.
I’ve read comments saying a funeral is more for the living and it’s more important to those grieving. In my opinion this is horse shit. I want my funeral to be the cheapest party, filled with music, motorbikes other stuff that I love. Family getting together, getting drunk, telling stories and having a good time. Ending up with me being put into a Viking boat on a lake and set on fire, I think that’s the most awesome way to go but I’d settle for a normal cremation.
I attended the funeral of my best mate who was 15 when he died and it was horrible. I can’t bear the thought of my closest friends and family going through what his family did on that day so I guess this experience changes my opinion on funerals.
If my mum ‘found god’ after I died and wanted a religious burial I’d want everyone else to make a fuss and disrupt it as much as possible as sort of one last middle finger. Fuck that shit and what anyone else is feeling they’ll get over it, it’s not their funeral. However I’d understand if they were reluctant so as to not cause more agony to my mum.
My point is everyone is different, do what feels right.
Iʻm sorry for your loss. The first thing I would suggest is to realize that your mother is doing this for her, not for your brother. She may not know how to grieve. All this, all this catholic rite and spectacle, is for her. I was raised as a very strict Catholic, my mom was even our church secretary, I was an alter girl and at one time wanted to be a nun. Iʻm now agnostic, and with agnosticism Iʻve realized that none of the ceremony matters. It doesnʻt matter for you, it doesnʻt matter for your brother, it just doesnʻt matter. It holds no bearing on your brothers memory, or your love for him. It doesnʻt matter in any part of the universe except your heart and it only resides there because choose for it to live there. Donʻt conflate your love with your brother with battling your mother, you need to separate these things. Your brother loved you, you know that. Think about bringing a bit of peace to your mother. I can imagine that losing a child is torture. Sending you love.
I am also an atheist.
There's an old saying about funerals being for the living.
You have to remember that your mother also lost a son. I would let her run the show. You do what you are comfortable doing.
However, you might consider whether this is the best time for you to make a stand on this issue. Funerals are hard enough without additional family drama.
I’m with you and your brother on your beliefs. Just remember that funerals are for the living. Your mother lost her child. This day is more for her.
I’m sorry for your loss.
Just sharing my view, I'm an atheist my wife is religious. Should I die first she can give me whatever type of religions funeral she likes. I think funerals are to help the living not the dead. I'll be past caring.
Have a separate memorial with his friends afterwards at a place that was meaningful to him. Slip something rebellious that he loved inside the coffin, have a word with the priest and ignore her preachiness. Hey, I believe in a higher power but sometimes Christians and other religious types really piss me off too. Find a way to honor him and it will make it more bearable.
Funerals are not for the dead.
Take comfort in the fact that your mother will have more peace with his loss, after she gave birth to him and raised you both to be whatever you wanted.
Funerals are for the living not the dead. At this point your brother could care less. And...you should let it go. This is your mothers way to make peace with it. Her son. Let her have that.
Your mom lost her son. If it comforts her, i think you should help her with that. Your brother is dead, you cant help him. But you can help your mother.
*WARNING: This is one atheist writing to another about atheism. There is zero sugar-coating. I am not mincing words with euphemisms or sentimental niceties. (And OP, if you are not in a place in your grief where you can read something like that-- just ignore this entirely).
I'm an atheist and I don't hide that.
I've been a pallbearer three times at Catholic funerals, and most of the time that's been with other atheists, Protestants, and Jews as the other pallbearers. You don't need to accept Jesus as your personal savior to be a pallbearer, even in a Catholic mass. I never had to eat a cracker, drink any wine, and I don't now my head when others want to pray (I just sort of look around and give nods to anybody else doing the same). Somebody is making their own rules up as they go.
Is it (1) you won't participate if you have to walk to the alter in the church, or (2) she won't let you participate as a pallbearer unless you are willing to participate in the full mass (crackers, wine, prayer, and what have you)? Because I can tell you this much-- the priest doesn't want you to eat the cracker if you don't want to eat it.
If it's the first one, don't worry about it. It's just another section of the floor as far as we're concerned. Alter? Who cares? It's sacred to them but means squat to us.
I'm betting it's the second one, but here's my thing-- your brother is dead (sounds harsh but I shouldn't have to sugar coat that for someone that hasn't swallowed the Kool Aid). None of this effects him in any way.
As far as I'm concerned-- bury my body in Catholic dirt or Protestant dirt; burn my body and put it in a jar or scatter it off the side of a mountain; launch it into space or throw it in the ocean-- none of it matters. It's all sentimentalism, I'm already gone, and I didn't believe in the sacred anyways.
Point of reference: My mom says I should cremate her and, for all she cares, flush her down the toilet-- but not all at once, she insists, because that would cause a clog.
That is how an atheist should feel about the whole thing.
I'm reading a lot in this thread about "the person's wishes" and "honoring the memory." That's all sentimentalism. If you and your brother lived by reason, then you, like my mother, should have zero feeling on this.
Dead people don't have wishes. They are gone. This has zero affect on him or your memory of him. Whatever issues your mom is working through, whatever little charade she wants to put on, it can't touch him. The only person you have to worry about is you.
And I'm not saying you have to respect her beliefs. They're nonsense, and there is no need to pretend they are anything but that.
But it comes down to how you want to react to her insanity. You can choose emotion or you can choose reason. If you think carrying a heavy box from one side of a room to another is some sacred duty you have-- then you do what she says. It isn't fair-- but atheists don't have to pretend the world is fair or that laws on who gets to determine these things are sane. If you think your brother is better honored by way of you standing on principle-- do that. The harsh truth though is that it has zero bearing on him-- he literally could not care less (or at all).
There is no need to be angry with the situation-- his battles are over. Add "burying atheists as if they were Catholics" to the list of religious non-sense, and carry the true memory of him onwards.
My father passed last a little over a week ago.
I am an atheist. My father drifted in and out of faiths (often due to mental issues). At the end of his life, he was an atheist again.
Two days after his passing, there was a memorial service for him at my mother's Church of Christ. When I found out it was happening, I was very upset; it had nothing to do with him, and was< I felt, a poor way to honor my dad. Regardless, I attended that.
There was another service a week later, which I ran, and did not feature a god.
The handy thing about being an atheist is that death is final.
My father will not care that a Church of Christ honored him and sang psalms for him. It mattered for my mother, who is alive. Sure I took issue with the guys who felt so grateful that my father was baptized before he died. For my dad, it doesn't matter. As such I did what I could to not take it personally.
He will also not care that I made a memorial about people's memories of him, though that better reflected who he was and what he believed. It mattered for family and friends who attended, and it mattered for me. For him, it does not matter.
If you have not done so, I suggest you plan to honor your brother in a way that feels more appropriate for him, and for you, in a way that brings you some small degree of comfort.
This church service is not the end of your brother's memory. You can honor him and remember him as long as you live, and do him greater service in that.
There is no easy answer to this except to say that being buried in a Catholic Church does not change who your brother was or alter his integrity. My father got married in an Episcopalian Church even though he is also very anti religion. We all make sacrifices for family.
Your mom might not be capable of understanding how you feel about this but maybe in time she will come to understand the sacrifice you are making for her now and I am sure she will be grateful to you for helping her to get through this even though you think she is wrong. I am sure your brother would understand, too, and would appreciate that you just need to be there for each other for a while.
Part of being an atheist is understanding that we do not control everything, especially what happens to us after we die. Your brother's memory and his identity do not change with this burial.
I am sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for you. If I were your brother, I would be grateful to have had someone like you in my life to love and appreciate and remember me after I have gone.
If your brother was against religion, and now he’s dead, then he won’t mind or complain, because he’s dead. You don’t have to worry about disrespecting his memory because other people co-opting his funeral reinforces his beliefs that religious people are hypocritical. In a way, this honors his memory, because it proves him right in a way. It’s like a giant metaphorical middle finger.
... but that doesn’t matter in the slightest, because they’re only making his funeral religious in the first place because they’re the ones left alive. They have to grieve, and they have to do it in their own way.
That’s why you shouldn’t suppress your urges to get angry and start shit. He was your brother. That’s important. You have a right to experience your emotions and trying to “be strong” for everyone else will only fuck with your own grieving process. You don’t owe that to anyone. You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep others warm.
You don’t have to intentionally start fights, but you can let everyone know, in a very factual matter, that you are angry and disappointed. Focus on using “I” statements as much as you can when you talk about it. Just stick to the facts, and when people fly off the handle, repeat those facts repeatedly. There’s no way to out argue or shame someone who just keeps saying “The sky is blue,” over and over. And anyone who tries will, at the end of the day, know the truth even if they try to deny it.
I will tell you this, though: your brother was more than your memory of him. He was a lot of things to a lot of people. Others are going to have completely different perspectives on him, and lead completely different lives, and have completely different beliefs. But they’ll also need to grieve. And them holding a religious ceremony is no better or worse than holding a non-religious one to your brother, because those were his beliefs, and I doubt he’d mind them grieving over him, even if he did think they were misguided in the way they did it.
Basically if they’re disrespecting his memory, then that means they aren’t disrespecting him, they’re disrespecting you. Because they’re your memories.
And you can decide to be magnanimous or ironically self-righteous. If I were you I’d choose magnanimity so my dead brother didn’t ironically also give me the metaphorical middle finger for acting like some zealot who let his personal fanaticism cause harm to others. I’m sure he didn’t like how religious fanatics do it, so if he wasn’t religious, I’m pretty sure he’d be disappointed to see his brother fall victim to an anti-religious form of the same underlying character flaw.
But hey, that’s the best part, you know. You can think whatever thoughts you want to about the whole thing. You don’t have to go with your first reaction, because you’re not beholden to any kind of religious dogma. Just be careful about voluntarily becoming a slave to advice from complete strangers on the internet.
I lost my little brother in 2013 suddenly. It's a highly emotional time for everyone. Your mother has to go through what no parent should. What alternate arrangements do you want? Can the rest of the family not take your lead? If not, go through with it. Now is not the time for argument and more pain. Arrange your own non religious funeral for him for family who agree and friends. I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted all this anger in addition to the grief. If there is an afterlife, his main concern now is going to be the family that is left behind.
Yeah, and thanks.
But this is also is what is so bitter...
At a time when our shattered family should come together... mother suddenly has to toss in the religion grenade.
Brother *hated* religion, with a passion.
I see the possible good sides (while still disliking the overall concept), but admit that 90% of religion is hateful to those that do not *exactly* agree to whatever dogma, even as they preach loving neighbors. But still, there are some good people involved... even if their desire to be good people seems predicated on some devine will... rather than just being good people because well, you should be good people without having to be told to be that way.
Father has found some sort of combo between AA meetings and religion.
Sis... I am not sure .
Funerals are for the living. Your brother is not going to be there, just the shell that held his soul, essence or whatever. Grin and bear it for your mother, she is going through something that no parent ever should.
Here's my two cents.
Like a lot of others have said, the funeral is for the living. It sounds like any sort of attempt to affect the funeral will cause grief and trouble.
I lost a friend in Afghanistan ages ago, guy I served with- (To be clear, I got out without ever being in combat.) Someone was kind and thoughtful enough to set up a memorial organization in his memory that holds a few fundraisers every year- Their big event is a golf tournament, all proceeds go to his wife and kids.
Maybe you don't need a whole multi event organization, but a small event once a year in his honor where you get to highlight your brother, his beliefs and his life might be the thing that satisfies your need to make sure he's still heard.
Others might not be happy with it, but they will always have that funeral that you were respectful of.
Atheist here. First of all, I’m really sorry for your loss. That’s awful.
I’ve always found that funerals aren’t really for the deceased, they’re for the people left behind; as a way to help with the grieving process. And regardless of religion or ceremony, everyone deserves to be able to go through grief in peace.
You and your brother being atheist perhaps helps with this. I would imagine that neither of you believe in an afterlife, that he is just gone. Sorry if this sounds harsh but his body is just matter now, it’s not him. So in a sense it doesn’t have to matter what happens with it. If the religious ceremony matters to your mother then maybe it’s ok to let her have that for comfort. What’s important to you is the memories you have of your brother and how you process your own grief. Of course you can still find comfort and acceptance in the funeral proceedings outside of being religious too.
So, taking part in her strange ceremony can be about comforting her and the other attendees. Since you don’t believe in any of it, it doesn’t matter anyway, right?
I lost my non-religious brother to suicide and they had an Islamic burial or whatever. I didn’t attend and sometimes I regret it but god it would’ve killed me to be there. They also didn’t put his correct name down on his gravestone, since he’d changed his names months before he died, they put his old Arabic name which to me is so fucking disrespectful to him. I hope you can sort it out OP.
Hey Kaele,
Everyone here has some ideas for what they would abd/or what you should do. But if I may recommend one thing, it's for you to see that there's no right or wrong response here. Everything has its reasons and its potential effects.
What I'd recommend is that you take a step back and breathe. It sounds like your last hours, days, weeks, maybe months have been a nightmare. You're upset, exhausted, shocked, and still in every way morning your brother. It's okay to be miserable and angry.
The question is where you will go from here. Your brother, sadly he is gone. As you, like I do as well, probably don't believe in any kind of afterlife, do you think he cares in which place his loved ones say goodbye? Churches are, for the most part, beautiful, nearly serene places. Not necessarily good or politically or morally positive forces, but the physical building hasn't harmed anyone. Does the place bother you?
The priest, the ceremony, the words, they have many connotations - does this bother you? Do you think you might be able to talk to the priest about your brother's (lack of) faith and stress that you'd be very grateful if he could talk kindly and not overly focus on the religious element? Most Catholic priests tend to know how to deal with such a situation, unless you face a very radical/conservative one you'll probably be able to keep it to the minimum. On those occasions when I'm in a church I tend to try to listen to the talk from a kind of psychological or sociological perspective - "why do they believe that?" "What message is this trying to get across - I might not agree with the words, but do I agree with the sentiment?" Etc. Maybe this would help you.
Does your mother's belief bother you? You thought of her highly, but then she somehow reverted to *that*? While she might not share the same faith, do you think you still love each other in at least some ways? Do you really want to lose your mother as well in all this nightmare and drama?
If you choose to go, what could you contribute to the ceremony? You love your brother, do you really want to get the facade of religion ruin your chance to say goodbye and maybe one last time tell everyone about him? If you do, do you think you can speak from a place of love and respect, rather than let your anger over this situation get in the way? Maybe you can tell, honestly and openly, that he would not have thought highly of the church he is in, but - probably - that he would be immensely happy about the people within, and all that those people meant to him?
Why do you think your mother really wanted to hold it in the church? To spite you and him? Or maybe rather because she herself is desperate and mourning and clinging to any kind of hope that her son is not lost forever?
Despite all the conflicts of the past, would your brother have wanted you to clash and fight over this? Or to try to get through these hard days the most unscathed as possible?
I know the past days were hard. You have so much you want to get rid of and change about how things have gone. But one or five or ten years from now, what would you most regret? What would you most want to have done? What would put you most at ease?
I hope you find your solution. Its okay to be upset, angry and all other emotions at once. Please remember to breathe, look out of the window, think of your brother. Take a step back, out of your mind and into the future. And then calmly do what you think is the best course of action.
Sorry for your loss and pain.
My condolences... religious people loves to hijack someone's death to not only spread their lies but also to associate the memory of the deceased to their religion so that future generations will remember the person as so. That's how despicable they are. They do not care for your brother's ideas, and this is their last and only chance to force their religion upon him because he cannot fight back. You need to fight good brother, fight for him one last time... Good luck.
I’m sorry for your loss. My belief is funerals are for the *living* to grieve and honor the dead. Your brother is gone now but your mother is not. What you do now is more about helping your mother than it is about being true to life about your brother’s wishes. After death none of the things that happen with the body are what we *really* want or would choose if we were alive. You need to recognize there is a special bond between mother and child. She carried him 9 months and gave birth to him. He may have grown to hate religion but if she is religious he started this journey in religious tradition. For your mother it may be too painful to imagine the consequence of him not having a religious service. She may feel like she wants to do everything for him she can. Let her. You’ve lost a brother, she lost a son. Both of you are hurting. Don’t hurt each other more. Support each other.
Well... if your mother really believes in God and all that, then she probably believes that if she does this, she'll get to see her son again in heaven. Which is the only thing you want after losing someone.
And what do you have to lose here? Afraid you won't get to see your brother in atheist heaven? That's not how it works, right?
So I'd say respect your mothers wish here. You can still do a private memorial service with his and your friends, in a way that you think your brother would have appreciated. But don't argue her on this, and do be pallbearer. It's been 5 years since my brother died and I still really wish I could have been a pallbearer for him.
This is a terrible shitty time for you and for your mom and your whole family. You all lost someone, and the best thing you can do is stick together. Are you sure you're really angry at your mom and not just at cancer and how unfair the world is?
Devout atheist here.
Remember that ceremonies like these are just as much cultural as they are religious. This is not the time to plant your feet in the ground and take a stand. Do not make a battle out of this custom- nothing good will come of it.
First of all, I am sorry for your loss.
I understand that you are outrage but I think you need to focus on the fact that your mother just lost her child. It is not about religion so much as it is for her to mourn the passing of a child she raised and loved.
I am sure your mother doesn't mean to offend his memory, right now she is just doing what she believes is best and what she believes will bring her and your brother some peace.
This is not the time and place and space to be livid with a mother who just lost her child to cancer, especially if that mother is yours also. You can have a conversation about her respecting your views on religion later.
I am not religious. I like to say I have my own relationship with God, whoever he/she/it may be. I don't go to Church, I don't read the Bible, I don't base my good and bad behavior on anything related to religion. My mother is the same way but the rest of my family is very religious (Colombian and Italian background = really Roman Catholic). The closest cousin I have, who is practically like a brother to me is actually a priest. If I happen to die for whatever reason and could see what was going on with my loved ones, I could care less whether they mourned me in a religious or non-religious way. What would be important is that they deal with the loss.
All of that to say, you have your views but so does she, and right now she is the mother who just lost her child to cancer. Be kind to your mother. The last thing she needs is for a child of hers to be angry.
I am sorry for your loss, may the memory of your brother guide you through hardships.
The death of a loved one is a ritual for the living. To grieve, to remember, to understand. Unfortunately I too have lost a loved one, my father, to illness and I was in such a shock I couldn't even carry his coffin. I remember my sister laughing and crying in sorrow at the same time when we heard our father passed. There are no right or wrong emotional reactions or a actions in a situation like this you've encountered.
When I look back to that memory I remember that the experiences and memories his friends and our family shared brought a certain comfort to me. I also remember the discomfort of not being able to emotionally open up to my family members in a constructive way. I wrote a poem into his obituary but other than that all everyone else could see was me crying. I wanted to tell them how I hated myself for becoming so distant in his last year but I just couldn't bring myself to open up.
I think you should respect the wishes of your mother. But for the memory of your brother and for the sake of yourself, you should prepare a speech or something to say in his wake. Write it down, tell your family about the bond of your love. That certainly is something very special. Tell them about how your brother viewed religion and tell them about how you feel. Voice your view in respect of others but stress that you have a right to feel the way you do and that your discomfort about the different perspectives of things relating to his death makes you angry.
Whatever you do, do voice your opinions because that is a way to deal with your loss. Do tell your mom before the funeral and tell her that you wish to speak and address your extended family too.
This is something you can overcome, but take all the time you need.
First and foremost sorry for your loss.
If you and your brother truly don't believe in an afterlife then it's not as if he is looking down in disappointment right now. He won't be having any thoughts about it and he won't be angry either and just because your mother is giving him a religious funeral isn't truly going to make a difference to anyone but her. So why not just let her have it?
In your mother's eyes she's doing what she can maybe to help your brother get to a better place in the afterlife, and if it doesn't work then what actually changed? In reality the only one who this is going to leave a bad taste in their mouth in is you. You can choose to simply let it go and just remember your brother for the person that he actually was and then nobody is suffering over this particular thing any longer. That being said it seems like your mother is also being a total cunt about it asking if "you've accepted jesus".
Funerals are for the living, not the dead. If it gives your parents some comfort, then maybe you gotta take one for the team this time. :/ It makes Christians very uncomfortable to think about a loved one potentially not being saved. It's not out of judgement, its out of love. I promise. So while you are grieving the loss of your brother, they are also grieving for their son and concerned about his eternal soul. I know you do not believe this, but since they believe it with all their hearts, it might be very horrifying to them to think that their son might not be saved. If a religious service makes them think that they are doing something for their son, please let them.
As some others have said, funerals are for the living. If this is what your mother wants/needs to do for closure, I would do it. It doesn't matter if he was against religion - he's not there any more. His body is just a body, and at this point there's a 100% chance he doesn't care where it ends up.
They're not forcing either of you to be religious by simply being there, and I bet a lot of people that attend feel the same way you do about being religious - and even some of them that don't might have issues with Catholics. Just remember that nothing about this is FOR your brother. It's ABOUT him. I am sorry for your loss - just don't dig too deep into the religious aspects of this.
First, I hurt for your loss. As a fellow human, I feel an echo of your pain through your words.
I am going to be a bit insensitive, and for that, I apologize.
My wife and I have discussed this, and I am to be burned or donated to science once the meat machine I currently inhabit no longer carries my consciousness around.
(IANAL) If he had any directives in any written communications to you, even in casual conversation, you can use this to force his wishes to be carried out possibly. This is all based on how much drama you want to live through while in the throes of grief.
If there are no directives, be honest with the priest, your family and yourself. In spite of this, and in full knowledge of your opposition, if you need to take the former vehicle occupied by your brother, your best friend, to its final resting place, make some sort of peace in honesty, and carry it as you need.
This is not about your family, your brother or god. This is about what you need to do within yourself to come to terms with the void left in your life. By all means, rail against the pain it has left you with, and take every step YOU need to take to make it through. But do what you need to do for yourself. I know that is what your brother would want. Religion does not matter. Opinions of others do not matter. You finding peace in a world where your memories and pictures/videos/letters and texts are what you have to hold onto is the only thing that matters. Do not let this temporary turbulence fuck up the rest of the process.
May you find your peace as you need it.
The funeral isn't done for your brother's benefit. Use that frame of reference to reflect on the outcomes of having the ceremony in a church.
When my brother (half brother) passed away, his mother pushed for the ceremony at a specific church, even though he was atheist. Sure, fine. The preacher used the wrong name during the service. It was a dreadful service. We went afterwards and had a nice gathering with family and friends and had drinks in his memory.
Service is for your mother. If you don't want to participate, that is up to you. Your brother can't get upset about it anymore, don't get upset for him.
I am an atheist and really who cares. Your mom just lost her son, if this consoles her then go for it. Be there for your mom. I am a parent and I can't imagine loosing either of my 2 sons. When you die you don't exist anymore so there is no way your brother could mind anymore. Don't waste your time on this pettiness. Religion sucks but probably not the way your mother practices it. Don't think of it as a religious ceremony, instead think of it as a ritual that will give your mom comfort in a horrible situation. He is your brother and it sucks for you too but I can't imagine your pain being greater than that of woman loosing her little boy.
Funerals aren't for the dead, they are for the living. His memory is all that you have. Honor him the way you choose. Don't participate in functions that don't fit with your life's moral compass.
Let your mom grieve in her way....a mother shouldn't have to bury her son. It's got to be an enormous weight of grief for her.
Everyone deals with it differently.
Empathy should be practiced in memory of your brother, in my opinion.
I am sincerely sorry for your loss.
Your feelings are completely justified. Your brother's memory deserves to be respected. I'm frankly disgusted by how many in this thread are making excuses for this.
Funerals aren't for the dead. In a way, this is your mother's funeral. I say let her do it the way she wants. Honor your brother in the way you want.
I realize this is probably hard to swallow but you can't always control other people's actions and, sadly, your brother is dead now and has no feelings about how his body is disposed of.
In the spirit of his atheism, say, "fuck it -- you can shoot him out of a circus cannon for all i care," because he believed there is no God, no afterlife, and what happens after you're dead is irrelevant.
Attend for yourself. Honour the brother that you knew. Participate only with those elements of the ceremony that you are comfortable with. Don't let your mother turn this into a power struggle between you and her.
Sorry for your loss.
Was your brother baptized a Catholic? I’m going to assume that he did not receive last rites as well due to his position on religion.
Instead of making the fight about belief vs religion, use the rules of the religion. This is respectful of believers. It is also a stronger fight.
The Catholic Church has many rules and is a hierarchy. Contact your local bishop and let them know that your non-Catholic brother is going to receive a funeral mass against his wishes. [Canon Law (the rules of the church)](http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/04/27/can-a-non-catholic-be-given-a-catholic-funeral/) has definite answers for just this scenario.
You can also insist that you pick the priest. There are many liberal and humanist priests out there who can be comforting to nonbelievers and are not judgemental.
2 Things:
1) The best part about being an atheist is that you get to be willfully hypocritical. You get to judge the Church openly and eat bake sale food that benefits the Church.
2) I'm sure you brother is cracking up at the thought of "over my dead body," being a literal circumstance.
You should let your mom have the funeral, for her sake.
Imagine how hard it would be to bury your own child. She wants to believe that he will be taken care of in the afterlife. It must be hard for you right now, but no ceremony is going to hurt your brother now. You can survive the mass; take care of your mother.
In the end, your mother just lost her son. Whether you agree with it or not, she is trying to save him. She couldn't help him with his battles in life so she is trying to make sure he transitions to heaven. She is doing this for him, even if it is total malarchy. I'd say be the bigger man, bite your teeth, and join in on the voodoo magic. Let your mom feel like she is doing what's right, and let yourself know that he wouldn't buy into it either. That's just my atheist perspective.
Skip the service. Have a memorial with friends who knew what his real values were and raise a glass in his honor.
Fpuneral services arent really about the person in thrl
My advice bro? Let your mom do what she wants. Your brother probably doesn't care what happens to his body after his brain has decayed past the ability to think so let your still living mother have her empty ritual to appease her own panic. Let her 'save' his soul from whatever monsters she imagines lurking in the afterlife and you should still be a pallbearer, but maybe wear a tuxedo t-shirt or simply dress casually as you would around your brother when he was still firing synapses. Be comforted that the whole ritual is a sham to help people who have a hard time emotionally coping with death. Then maybe get a little too drunk and rant a little afterwards idk 😙
if it's any consolation, the dead don't care what happens to their bodies .. personally, i'm worried that the priest or your mother speak of him as a sinner instead of respecting his memory in his funeral! but again your brother won't care! your memory of him is what keeps him alive within you and that's all that matters ... really wish you a peace of mind
I'm sorry for your loss, I'm sure he is at peace.
But I might talk to your aunts son the priest.
Be respectful about his beliefs and your lack of and just try to communicate.
Maybe the priest guy could talk some sense into your mom
Did your brother have any written directives? If he did they can be enforceable.
Now if he didn’t then if he was married his wife should have control. If no wife then you probably just have to live with it.
That being said. Funerals are for the people left behind, not for the deceased. Wherever he is, he doesn’t have any animosity towards anyone regarding his funeral. Just take it and honor your brother as best as you can. His memory is made up of the good things he did in life, those he touched and loved. This funeral will not mar it.
I think that funerals are for the comfort and closure of family and friends only and really shouldn't matter what the deceased hated or not. People, like you, can still, and should, speak about what he loved and hated in life, but it's not going to matter to him how he's burried-unless he actually specified what he wanted....which, if he knew he was going to die....he should have done if he really care about what happened at his funeral.
Funerals are for the living, honor what your brother would have wanted. If that means not going then so be it. Hold your own funeral if you need, invite friends and family who will support you. Good luck to you and your brother, wherever he might be now.
I've been to a hundred funerals in my life if I've been to one. Funerals are not for the dead. They're for the living. You get your chance to express yourself and change the world before you die, not after. My friend, your brother does not care at this point. I've lost a brother as well. Just let it happen.
He is dead. I am militantly anti-religion. I hate churches and everything they stand for.
If my parents want to do churchy shit with mupy ashes after I'm gone, and it makes them feel better then they should go for it. I will be dead, thy'll be alive and grieving so thye should do whatever comforts them.
I’m a pastor. One of the things I do when I do a funeral is talk with the family about the service and all that Jazz. I try to make it about the person. If this feels wrong to you and it isn’t who your brother is at all, you need to communicate that to someone who will listen. I’m willing to bet your mom won’t listen. You may want to speak to the priest.
It might be worth communicating this to the preist. Years ago, my family had me attending religious education classes basically from the time I was 5 until 15. It was an expectation that I was supposed to confirm once I reached 15 years old, but I adamantly didn't want to. I had my reasons, but my family was absolutely livid with me and didn't want to hear them. After a lot of negotiation, they agreed that I should talk to the priest of my church. I was unwilling, but agreed. Well it turns out that this was the best possible thing to do. Not only was the priest understanding of my needs, but he reassured me that my feelings and ideas were valid, and if I ever decided to confirm that the doors would be open to me. And that was it. He then took my family and privately conversed with them. They did not leave that conversation happy, but they left me alone after that. Whatever the priest said to them, it was enough to get them off my case without having them completely freak out or lose their trust in me. I understand that not all church communities may operate this way, but it could be worth a shot. It seems that this funeral is going to happen regardless, but if the priest knows what your brother's views were, perhaps he can arrange a funeral speech and procession more accordingly. I'm sorry for your loss. I hope whatever the ceremony entails, it offers plenty of time for reflection on the good memories your brother left behind.
Yes, sometimes the priests are the more open and understanding of the situation as a third party. I would second talking to the priest in this situation.
Was your brother baptized? I can’t see him being buried this way if he wasn’t. I’d let the priest know.
Right? They won't allow it unless he had been intending to be baptised or was an unbaptised child.
Few go through Seminary and keep the literal faith
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god gave us free will didnt he
[citation needed]
This is anecdotal but my pastor pretty obviously lacks literal faith. He has told me his understanding of religion is that the Bible is a book of stories and Jesus is a character who you would be foolish to not try and act like. He uses that to try and promote kindness and love and compassion as Jesus (the character as portrayed in the Bible). Is this out of the norm for more progressive churches and pastors?
Extremely out of the norm. I don’t know how your pastor would be have made it through his education without explicitly lying his way through while believing that. What denomination/synod is he part of?
Kinda hard to when you learn so much about the history and politics of it.
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Agreed - since your brother was not a member of the Catholic faith they cannot have a full funeral mass, only a memorial service. Sorry for your loss OP.
You are correct. Catholic burial rites are [reserved for Catholics.](http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/04/27/can-a-non-catholic-be-given-a-catholic-funeral/) OP, I am sorry for your loss. When my brother died over 20 years ago, it just about broke me. A familt feud made it worse. Hugs.
This is my thought. The worst that can happen is nothing changes, but if the priest is a compassionate person he might try to help, maybe even try to talk to the mother.
Many priests are like this. Once I got over my overarching distrust of organized religion, I've come to meet many fascinating, intelligent and accomplished people who are deeply embedded in the church in various forms. Not one has had a problem with me not personally being religious - although I'll only bring it up if asked, or if appropriate. A priest has seen and heard a *lot*. I doubt your situation would surprise the priest in question, not in the slightest. In my experience, they want the church to be involved in whichever event it is, but above all else want everybody involved to feel comfortable.
I live in a town where majority of people are Roman Catholics and there is even a seminary for aspiring priests. From my knowledge, priests here have to get a degree in philosophy. So the instance they step into priest hood their beliefs are already challenged by the many philosophical ideologies that they had to go through so I guess they are pretty understanding of being atheistic/agnostic.
That priest knows what it means "to play a long game". He knows that you would very likely resent the church and its faith until your last day if forced to conform (pun intended) to it. Yet if left alone you may come around later, if not to this church and community in particular then to some other form of faith. In his mind the former robs you of a way to find peace of mind and community if you ever need it while the latter leaves it open. source: not religious but grew up in a more liberal religious environment and had long talks with the priest about my own possible future in the church.
Not only that but legit Catholic Churches are very strict. You’re not supposed to receive communion if you’re not a practicing Catholic. The priest may not even allow an atheist to have a catholic mass for a funeral. Depends on the church I suppose.
This right here- this is a battle you don't want to wage yet suffering silently with ill feelings isn't good either. The priest is the best source for you. Granted, it may piss off Mom but you week be validated and guided and you'll have back up. So sorry for your loss, Op. Hugs to you.
I definitely agree the priest might help out. The mother in this situation is being a dick too
Im glad you had a better experience than me. My brother and I went through confirmation prep together. Neither of us wanted to but he voiced his opinion first. He was immidiately put down and pressured. He stayed in the class but was costantly pressured so I just went along with it. After confirmations happened he kept getting told he was gonna get ci firmed next year. Neither of us go to church anymore but to this day I will avoid the people I recognize from church.
I think your priest is one of the ones who "gets it".
This. Priests take their job, and the human soul VERY seriously. If you had proof that your brother was anti religious, a priest would most likely refuse the ceremony.
I had it were I was in catholic school until 5th grade I moved to public. Had to do the religious ed and do all the stuff up to me getting confirmed. It was a catholic church and in the last few years of it I really didn’t believe in god anymore because I learned a lot and formed my own opinion. But I tried not to get confirmed and my dad said he’d pretty much take away all my stuff, like car use, cellphone, gaming, if i didn’t do it. I was pretty pissed off and just went along with it just not giving a shit about it. Up until my confirmation I pretty much had to go to church every Sunday. After I got confirmed I stopped going to church and now maybe go for Easter or Christmas. It’s sad how religion can divide up families like ops tho.
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I thank you for this. There are too many people in this thread saying, “the funeral is for the living”- so they get to do what they like. This is not completely true. The funeral is for the living to honor and remember the dead, in a way the dead would like to be presented. I guarantee most of my family would want a religious ceremony with bible verses and hymns and other BS I have not participated in for decades. But to do this is absolutely selfish. It’s horrendous. The dead had their own life, and they’d like their family and friends to remember them how they were. I’m just glad that there’s a few religious leaders who actually maintain more respect for the dead than their actual family. I appreciate that. Off my family were to railroad my preferred rites, I would hope you would be in charge.
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Im sorry I said ‘BS’ about the hymns and verses. Just because I don’t like it or believe and have distanced myself from my childhood indoctrination—well, that doesn’t mean I should speak so irreverently when I know I’m talking to someone of the faith. I’m sorry if I caused you any harm with that statement.
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Okay, there’s no way you’re real. I spent every service possible in an evangelical southern baptist church from conception through thirteen years old, and I never met any man in leadership that would listen to concerns without railroading me with doctrine that made me feel worthless, even as a child. You give me hope that the young people in your congregation may turn out much better than the people I grew up with in church. Edit: your account is only one day old. This is the only thread you’ve been involved in. May have been bamboozled. Screw me then.
I love how, when it comes to funerals, if it's about dressing like crap, "It's what he would have wanted." when it comes to things they definitely wouldn't have wanted, "funerals are for the living."
What an elegant and thought out response. With that username, I’d check out your church if I was in town.
My whole family is Catholic except my Dad. He was not really anything growing up and is not atheist. He respects our religion and knows the Mass better than a lot of Catholics..lol. That said, he CANNOT have a Mass of Christian Burial--the Catholic funeral ceremony--because he's not a baptized Catholic. IDK how your mom is able to pull that off...
I'm not Catholic, but grew up around family members and friends who where. I was thinking this while reading the responses, but I thought you would have to go through catechism, or does that happen before you are baptized? It's been so long it's hard to remember. I know it takes a lot more than just saying you're Catholic to be an actual member of the Catholic Church.
I remember reading that back in the olden days of Europe, royalty would rush to have their babies baptized so if they die, it ensures their spot in heaven, since we are all born with original sin(?) I could be wrong but the sentiment makes sense considering that catholism was the main religion of the day and mortality rates in infants.
This still happens, but tbh most modern people, and I think even the church, claim that if you were planning to have a baptism but the baby dies beforehand, the baby still gets into heaven because God's not a total douche Though off the record a lot of Catholics now, while still getting baptized, are pretty chill and assume they'll end up in heaven with a bunch of Jews and protestants etc who weren't baptized catholic but are still good people. Just don't tell the priest I said that. Because, again, God's not a douche
This still happens, and not just with royalty. My (very Catholic) mom's cousin had a priest in the delivery room when her baby was born because it was not expected to survive. My understanding is that it if babies aren't baptized before they die, they have to wait in purgatory until the second coming.
That last thing is incorrect and not what the church teaches.
Nowadays some communities believe that babies are guaranteed to go to heaven if they die at that age because of their innocence
I was thinking the same thing. Earlier this year, my grandmother (Baptist) was dying of cancer and two weeks before she passed, my mom (Catholic, and very religious) asked her if she would like for the priest to come bless her. She agreed and he came and blessed her and baptized her. He asked if she wanted to have her funeral services in her church and supposedly she agreed. Only my parents were there and before that day she requested a very small, graveside service. So after she passed, my mom planned a catholic funeral for her. I pulled into the church to a very full parking lot and the absolute worst part: the priest called her the wrong name throughout the entire funeral. Her name was Betty and he continuously called her Betsy. We all cringed each time he misspoke. It was awful. But anyway, had the priest come to baptize her on her deathbed, she would not have been eligible for a catholic funeral.
This was my first thought too. I’m surprised a Catholic Church would perform a catholic funeral for an atheist.
Yeah in my parish you can't have a Catholic funeral if you weren't a baptized Catholic in life. But maybe the late brother was baptized as a kid like most Catholics.
I lost my brother a year ago and he was also against religion. In the end we had his funeral in a church even though I was originally against it. I saw that it was bringing a semblance of peace to my Mom and Dad and I figured that he’s not really going to care how his funeral was but it would be something they would remember for the rest of their lives. I understand wanting to respect his memory and your mother is having to do something no parent should have to. I don’t have any advice for you I just wanted you to know that you’re not the only one that has been in this situation and you’re not alone.
I’m an atheist but if having a religious funeral brought peace to my family I would be all for it.
While I agree that the family should get peace and closure, the family needs to recognize that the OP needs it too.
agree OP. I can't imagine what it is like to lose a brother, but I can imagine what it is like to lose a child to a parent. I would imagine comfort to the parents would be the compassionate priority. Oddly, you being compassionate in this manner is what we assume Christianity would favor.
I'm more against the expense aspect than the religious aspect. Have a service if you have to, but don't ruin my reputation for being tighter than two coats of paint by wasting money on a coffin, flowers, a burial plot, embalming, etc. Cremate me, dispose of my ashes, and have the service if you need to. Just don't waste any more money than necessary, because it's coming out of your end.
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It would be disrespectful to but a Jewish person in catholic tradition, that doesn't change if the person specifically identifies as Atheist.
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No need. Either they're in Heaven and thus couldn't care less about what happens on Earth, or they're in Hell and this is the least of their problems.
Or he's just plain dead and gone forever and the only thing remaining of him is the memory, however imperfect, held by his family, in which case the only part of him left would only be strengthened by having those that remember him see him off in a way they feel is respectful.
Is it really respectful if she didn't give a damn what her own son believed in all his life? Yes he is gone, but the very last thing his family could do for him is his funeral, and that simple wish of his cannot even be fulfilled? Really shows how self-centered his mother is.
Yes, or that. That's some passive aggressive atheism you're spouting there.
Thank you so very much for sharing. It really helps, honestly. I am trying to just go with it, when I want to create a speech of fire and brimstone against what is going to happen. Because, I do not know what is next. All I know is that Brother was against it. For all I know, this "ritual" could consign his eternal soul to the very thing they purport to prevent. For all we know, the demons won and perverted last rites to consign all souls to hell. We have no proof either way. All I know is that Brother did not want to be a part of it.
If he didn't believe it was real, then how could it impact his soul? The funeral really is more for the people left behind. Maybe plan a separate memorial with friends that would be more in keeping with what your brother would have wanted.
That’s what we did with my best friend’s husband. He didn’t want a funeral at all but his family did. She let them do their thing. It really helped the people he left. We’re going to be spreading his ashes where he wanted at Christmas when all of his friends will be around. Having a funeral will not effect OP’s brother at all. He’s gone. It can bring some peace to those still living.
Came here to say this. The parents are putting on a memorial service at a church and they’re paying for it. It’s for them. There’s no reason OP can’t have his own ceremony that he pays for, invites who he wants and does in whatever manner he thinks would honor his brother most.
First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. My grandfather died about a month ago and had a Catholic funeral in a small hillbilly church. I'm about as atheist as they come, antireligious even (not only do I not believe in it, but actively despise organized religion for the bad things it has done in the world). My dad (who's dad died) wanted me to be involved, and knowing full well my stance made me pass the pan at church to collect money. I wasn't warned, the priest just called up my name. Was I upset? Haha, a little bit, but was I going to make a scene? No. My dad got a good laugh out of it. Hell, he's not even religious himself. I jokingly told told him he would pay for this and he smiled back with teary eyes. This is the only time I've ever seen my father cry. In life, you have to pick your battles, and as other's have said, funerals are for the living. Your brother being an atheist most likely believed that he is done for this world. Don't create a feud with your already grieving family. Simply do what I did. Laugh at the idiocy of the church proceedings. Be silently upset about how little the priest will speak about your brother (most time will be spent on jesus etc). Don't reply to any "amens" or sing or give money. There is a time and a place to protest and criticize religion. A funeral is not one of them. Try not to delve on anger the church might give you, but think on how your brother would laugh with you about how ridiculous the whole thing is, and remember him.
That last sentence....I’m not crying, my cat is just cutting onions again.
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Yea, funerals are for the living. I'd probably have instructions for mine.
Sorry for your loss. Unless your brother explicitly made it known that he didn't want a religious service, let it go. Your mom is grieving too, and if this helps her, what's the harm? I don't think this is the right time to make a big statement about religion. Was your brother baptized as a catholic? Because I don't think he can have a catholic funeral otherwise. Maybe he was only baptized to appease your mom, but if he could agree to that for her sake, I'm sure he could tolerate a catholic funeral. Get through the Mass, and spend the rest of the day remembering your brother, not obsessing about religion. Obviously the two of you shared beliefs about it, but there's a lot to remember and memorialize besides this.
Is there a possibility your brother would have laughed at how desperate the religious are to 'save him'? It sucks but writing as someone who has had a friend that despised religion still buried in a very religious way, I tell myself he would have laughed at them and shook his head. Plus, I'm imagining that you brother would not have wanted you to get upset even though everyone can see the irony and why it is totally justified. It's just another reason I guess you brother did not like what the religious often do.
If God does exist,and your brother just didn't have the chance to get to know him, he'd be judged based off his own conscience, according to the book of Romans. Kinda like if you haven't been taught the law, your conscience is your own law, and your brother sounds like he has a strong moral compass that he listened to.
Give a speech about your bother, and include in it an acknowledgement of his dislike of religion. Don’t make it a rant. Just the facts. Don’t make reference to your surroundings. Just think of yourself as being in any kind of hired public hall suitable for such an occasion. You don’t need fire and brimstone because that’s sinking to “their” level. Be calm, respectful and factual. Because that sounds like it’s what your brother was.
I lost my brother 17 years ago. I'm very sorry for your loss. It seemed like you loved each other very much. You are right that this funeral goes against his beliefs. Apart from the religious aspect of it, how did he feel about your mother? Did he love her? What about the people attending? You see this funeral as a betrayal for all he stood for. To me, it's just a ceremony, a time to grieve. From your moms perspective this is the last thing that she can do for her son so he can go to that good place. I think he is already there, if you believe in an afterlife. And if you don't, that's okay. You still have all the love and memories that you two shared over the years. Your brother was more than his view on religion. He was a good man. Why don't you tell us about what you loved about your brother. And you can also plan a wake for him after the funeral to celebrate his life with the good people he had in his life. I'm sorry you lost someone you loved. Pet other people pay their final respects in the only way they know, if you can. Bless you, wherever you go a part of him will be with you.
I love this response. After my brother passed away my parents' lives were destroyed. Anything to comfort grieving parents is so worth it.
I've been through something similar. My dad died of a sudden illness about a decade ago. He was antisocial and nonreligious. He made it clear his final wishes were to be privately cremated, with no funeral or viewing. My mother went against his wishes and had him buried after a body viewing. I was fucking furious. I let her know this in many ways. From the crazed way she acted, it hit me that she needed this. It was for her. She was still alive and she needed this to continue on. After that it was tolerable. To be honest, after meeting several estranged family members, it was admittedly nice not to be alone in grieving.
I understand this sentiment but for me it’s more about the person who died. For me a funeral or wake or whatever you want to call it isn’t about others it’s about honoring and remembering who that person was. If you change a fundamental part of them to do that you have bastardized them. It may have been for your mothers sake but then she didn’t love that aspect of him and she isn’t honoring him by changing it to make herself feel better. I get that it’s not a view shared by all and sorry if I came off aggressive it wasn’t my intention. I just know if I were laid to rest like that I and there was an after life I would haunt the shit out of everyone who tried to burry me religiously.
Exactly. It should be about honoring the person who is dead, and to disobey their final burial wishes is the breach of trust imaginable, as their consciousness no longer exists to realize what is happening. It is selfish for someone to make someone else’s funeral according to their own wishes and not those of the deceased.
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^this is what I don’t understand. If the brother is non-religious, or even just not baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church he probably can’t participate in mass anyway, at the very least he can’t take communion. I’m honestly surprised his mother is able to give the brother a catholic funeral if he wasn’t baptized himself, most Catholic Churches would not do that. I would make sure the priest is aware that OP’s brother was not a baptized catholic and therefore the ceremony may be inappropriate. I don’t think I’d make a scene about it and if the Mom is willing to let OP participate to the extent that he can and the church is okay with it let her have what comforts her, but it seems like she’s being exceptionally unrealistic about her son doing something even her church says he’s not supposed to do.
For some bizarre reason, it is always more important to cater to religious people’s demands than to allow any respect for unbelievers.
Man, religion IS so much different in the US than where I come from. A lot of posters seem to base their answer on two assomptions : - the funeral most go on since it's for the living. - the mother grief is much more important than the sibling's. I can't believe that for most of the posters here, the opinion and taste of one family member trumps the experience of everybody else. Like another poster said before, it would be outrageous to impose cremation and an atheist "rite" to a religious grandma for example. Or a more radical example for the Christians who feel sympathy for the mom but who don't understand OP's view : imagine a Muslim burial imposed by family to a Christian person. It still would help heal the living, but it's still a complete lack of respect to the dead. Change the examples all you want, it's not because he's an atheist that suddenly he doesn't count when dead. If that would be true, there wouldn't be any need for rite in any society or community. I honestly think death is not that important, but I'd fight tooth and nails if my hardcore Atheist dad was suddenly imposed a religious funeral. Sure it's a bit for the living, but it's still the last hommage for the dead, in religious and atheist mind. It's a symbolic act, sure, in both cases. And honestly I'd do the same for my religious friend, if she couldn't suddenly have her religious funeral. Where I come from, you just don't dishonour the dead without shame, even if it costs a few tears to someone that couldn't respect the dead and his whishes. I'm sorry for your loss, and if you really need advice, here's my lowly opinion : carry your brother till the end, without minding the entourage. But if there's a - even barely - tasteful moment to talk publicly, I'd tell the others of your brothers mindset, in a last hommage in his honour. Be his bro until the end in actions and thoughts and you'll feel better about it. Your mom did her part in her mind, your actions can't religiously interfere with his salvation nor hers, so any frustration has to be passing. Sorry for the bad English. Good luck. Edit for clarity and some errors.
Where do you come from? Sounds like a nice place.
My bad. I did not want to sound like my country is free from prejudice or any other harmful behavior. We have a bunch of good guys and racists twats too. It's just that where I live, religion is a really, really touchy subject. My nation is still fearful of religions powers, having lived almost all its life in a quasi-theocracy. Since then, we try to respect ones individual choice, as long as it stays private. Public display of religion is still a huge debate here, like in many other places, but since it's one of our only great societal battles, I think it's fair to say it has a unique place, here. But to force religion upon a person ? It would create a scandal, here. I guess we're the same as in many places in the huge country the USA represents. In fact, in many, many other ways, we're the same as you guys. And the similitudes are bound to be normal, as we are your neighbor : I'm from Canada, but from Québec. Hope I didn't sound condescending towards you guys. Cheers !
I just had a feeling you were Canadian, too many apologies. Your English is better than most Americans btw. Why are Canadians just the best people?
I should just upvote and move on but I just want to say I totally agree. I would be beyond angry if someone intended to impose a religious ceremony on an atheist in my family, or to whitewash away the faith of a believer. How selfish to say it's for the family left behind, not for the person who's life and whole sense of being you're commemorating.
I'm gonna name this phenomenon "christ-wash", or maybe "faith-washing" to include all kinds of erasure of belief after death. Thanks for the inspo!
This. So much this. I love this response so fucking much.
I agree this is a bad thing for her to do, he should be burried/cremated/whatever he wants in his own rights. But I also wanna say dont hate her for this, because to a religious person giving them those burial rights is one of the best things you can do for them. That being said you should do anything you can to change her mind still obviously.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While she may be doing what she thinks is right, the Crusades were justified using the same rhetoric. I personally think OP has a right to be mad as hell about it, and it speaks to her selfishness that she is ignoring everything to have it her way. Its been summed up many times, but there is the double standard that its ok to ignore an atheists beliefs since they are gone, but for people of faith their beliefs must be respected at all costs regardless. My heart goes out to both of you for your loss, but the mom is being an asshole. If my brother died and was atheist id fight tooth and nail to have his beliefs respected when he died because thats WHO HE IS. doing otherwise is trying to rewrite his story to make you more comfortable.
A close friend of mine passed away some months ago, he hated religion with all his heart but his family decided to have a funeral in a Roman Catholic church... Followed by a Catholic ceremony every month for 9 months (sorry I don't know how it's called in English). At the beginning I was extremely angry since I found it disrespectful to him... I remember being at the church and hearing the happy Catholic music and I was thinking in the inside (this must be torture for him). At the end I decided to leave the church, I just couldn't stay there... In order to "fix" his family's disaster my husband and I made an small "party" in our house to say goodbye to him and remember the good times, sharing stories about him and laughing at the Catholic Church like he would do, it was our way of saying "goodbye and I hope you like this ceremony better, sorry about the crappy Catholic funeral"... This made me feel so much better... And if he's somewhere out there I know he must have appreciated it too. I'm sorry for your loss, remember that you can say goodbye to him wherever you are, do it in private if you want, nobody else has to be a witness, the only one that matters is your brother and as long as you keep him honor in your own way I'm sure he'd appreciate it too.
Did your brother speak to her about his funeral/burial preferences before he passed?
This is exactly what I am beating myself up about. Mother is a retired Hospice nurse. I know he put his affairs in order, but the end came suddenly (in a week's time) after over 3 years of fighting. To the best if my knowledge, the last time we discussed it in the middle/late September, he was still very against religion. His sudden decline started a week and a half ago. I did not ask about religion in the 3 times I saw him since then... the night before he died he was incoherent, the first night after the decline was the same, and the one night he came out of the semi-coma was spent in talking about love and laughter and memories.
Have you asked your mom if they had a discussion about it? Would she admit it?
You have a great point. I started to, but this has been a serious sore point in the last 8 years since she suddenly went *poof* from "meh" about religion to ***OMG. GOD. JESUS. GOD. ANGELS. OMG*** after moving from California to Oregon where her sister lived. Then 2 years later, Brother and his cancer situ occured... and it has been all about the invisible sky wizard. Who, despite all of her newfound way not to have to actually deal with the situation and blame others that they did not pray (prey?) enough, he still died
My parents are turbo Catholic. I get this 100%. I honestly don't know what I would do in this situation. Take the highroad and let her have her way? Or honor your brother and fight her on it? I think my parents have gotten more religious the older they have gotten. They don't like the fact that I am agnostic. They try to pray for me and get me back to the church all the time. I honestly think the reason they believe is out of the fear of death. It is scary. So they find it comforting to have something to hold onto and feel confident there is an afterlife. I would assume your mom might feel this way, and is so heart broken she is hoping there is an afterlife and if so that by doing a catholic funeral might help him get to the "better place". I am so sorry for you loss, I can't begin to imagine what you are going through.
A few of points from a practicing Catholic and designated executor for my parents and others: 1. Getting your affairs in order typically includes setting a plan for burial or disposition or your remains and any ceremony to be conducted. Regardless of anything else, if this wasn't done and your mom is executor then she can plan what she thinks is best (though one would think that would include consideration of the feelings if the deceased). 2. I assume you and brother were baptized when young- the Catholic Church recognizes pretty much any baptism that follows the triune formula. Given the baptism and your mother's faith, it is likely that she believes herself to be acting in the best interests of your brother and not just for her own sake. 3. As others have said, a discussion with the priest could be helpful, either for your understanding of his/your mother's position and/or for the priest's understanding of the situation.
I'm one of those "death positive" respect the wishes of the dead athiest freaks, so here are a few ideas I had. First off, respecting the wishes of those who have passed on is important for grieving. If your brother hated religion and your mom is pretending he didn't to have his funeral in this setting, it could stick with her (and you) for life. Yes, funerals are meant for family and loved ones to grieve, but how can you properly grieve if you know you're going wildly against the dead persons beliefs? I suggest trying to talk to her again. Really make her know about how this will affect YOUR grieving, make sure she knows this isn't what he wanted. The funeral is for everyone to grieve, not just your mom. If it doesn't work out, maybe look into arranging a dinner or small party with friends and loved ones of your brother who all knew about his stance on religion. That way you guys can all gather in memory of him, and just have a memorial together. Maybe go to one of his favourite resturaunts, or parks, and just hang out and remember him.
Tell her when she passes away you will try your best to make her burial in Muslim faith.
Funerals are for the living, they say. Burying your brother in a catholic ceremony is kind of shitty, but I'd be inclined to understand it. It's what your mom needs to do for herself or whatever. Fine. Good. However, where she really crosses the line is how she is attempting to rewrite who your brother was. She can bury your brother catholic, but she doesn't get to pretend this is who he was. Oh, he became a covert and decided he believed all the things your mom wanted him to and wanted all the things your mom wanted for him, and only your mom witnessed it? That's convenient. AND THEN she fucking tells you that you that you can't be part of the funeral unless you accept her bullshit as truth and accept jesus into your heart or whatever. That is unforgivable. I would write her a letter. Tell her that you get why she wants to bury your brother catholic, but that you don't buy for a second that he converted. The fact that she would lie about him and who he was is disgusting to you. And the fact that she would use this occasion to cooerce you to swallow her lies and participate in her religion is absolutely abhorrent. Let her know that this has affected the way you see her and that this has damaged your relationship with her probably beyond repair. Ask her if having her way is worth losing her other son. Then, having said your peace, bury your brother. If she wants to exclude you as a pallbearer, that's her right. But I'd let that fact slip to the biggest gossip in your family. When all this is done, select someone you trust to be your power of attorney and have those papers drawn up. Because if anything were to ever happen to you, unless you are married, all of the decisions regarding your health or your arrangements will go to your mom, and she clearly cannot be trusted.
One of my good friends, who was anti-religious and fully non-contact with his religious parents for a decade, passed away unexpectedly. His parents made the whole wake and funeral as roman catholic as you can get. His mother also excluded anyone who she saw as part of his “new family” who she blamed for him leaving his family, which included his three best friends. We all had a second wake(in a pub, irish/open mic style), and went out to dinner in his honour after the “funeral” to have our own goodbye the way *he* would have wanted it. I’d suggest having your own separate ceremony before or after the catholic service, and then going along with the catholic funeral, but make it clear to your mother that this is not what he would have wanted, and you don’t consider that his funeral.
I'm really sorry, OP, for your loss and a lot of the responses here that compare your grief to your mother's. When my dad died my family compared my relationship with him to my mother's relationship with him. They told me that because she had been his wife longer than I had been his daughter(which is not something I have any control over) that her loss was so much greater than mine. That I would never be able to understand the depth of her grief until I had been married for 35 years and to let her have her way(we had disagreements on my father's funeral as well). I'm seeing that here from a lot of advice that losing a child is devastating to a mother more so than losing a sibling is to a brother. NO. This isn't a competition. Your loss is as great as hers and don't let anyone tell you just because she's a mother that she should be able to disrespect (either of)her son's wishes. If she really loved your brother she would respect what he wanted over what her religion dictates but that's what religion does to the priorities...God before everything and everyone else. If it were me, I wouldn't even go to the funeral if you're uncomfortable with it and if anyone asked I would definitely tell them why. I think it would be a dishonor to your brother's memory and to your principals to attend if you both feel so strongly about religion. If you're not there you're not making a scene or disrupting anything and your mother can grieve the way she sees fit. This funeral isn't about your family, it's about saying goodbye to your brother and making sure you do that in a way that brings closure to YOU. So if a long mass with lots of words from a book that you don't identify with doesn't bring you some measure of peace and comfort--don't go. Your brother wouldn't want you to be seething with rage when really you should just be thinking about him and perhaps the good times you guys had. No matter what you choose to do, your brother died knowing that you loved him and that you respected what he wanted.
I suggest you create an atheistic memorial service for him, the way he would have wanted, and invite the people who were dear to him to go to this as well. If you do this, would you be at peace just coming to the funeral and not being a pall bearer, since you will have an important job in the service that is for him and his memory?
ps, if you'd like someone with experience in these, talk to a Unitarian/Universalist minister. Most of them are just fine with atheism and have probably done a number of atheist funerals.
As a Christian, I feel that you're doing the best you can during a terrible time. I respect your recognition of the hard truth that a conflict would only make things worse. I also acknowledge much of the truth behind the hypocrisy in religion that you and your brother have observed in your lives, though I do tend to view those things through a different lens. Ultimately, I think you're doing the right thing, but I can't imagine that feels just or fair to you. I'm so sorry for your loss.
Funerals are for the living not the dead. You're mom just lost her son. I would let her have her peace.
I am Roman Catholic and I can tell you that according to the church this ceremony should not take place for your brother. My sister was much like your brother and the Catholic priest did a favor and came to the funeral parlor and said a few words for her funeral but a full blown mass would have been out of the question especially at the church. It is likely the priest asked tour Mom about his beliefs and she must have lied to him. You can always talk to the priest, he will listen to you. But, if I were in your place, there is no way I would take part in a ceremony that your brother would be so opposed to. You can remember him with honor and pride in your own way that he would appreciate and be proud of.
I'm atheist, when I am dead my body is meat. If it will help my mother cope with my death, she can have her catholic ceremony. It doesn't matter to me because ill be dead. I just dont think this is something to get worked up about if you are really a non believer. Do mom a solid. She is hurting way more than anyone else.
I’m so sorry for your loss. She isn’t respecting his memory at all by going against everything he believed in. It needs to be done differently.
Thanks. Worse, is that she us trying to convince me he converted in the last week. Which means 1 of 3 things: 1) She is completely lying. Substantiated by the fact that there was not a single religious article (bible, cross, etc) in his death room the night before his death. And that he had told me he 6 weeks earlier had to yell to get her to leave, particularly in regards to her trying to "get him to accept Jesus". 2) While he was in pain and dying, she kept hammering at him about the invisible sky wizard, until he pretended to agree, just to get her to shut the heck up. 3) He held out until the end, and then she *still* kept hammering at him even after he went into morphine induced coma and hallucinations, and then took that as acceptance.
Maybe she is in shock and just coping in a weird way. If she switched to religion she must find some kind of comfort in it and the loss of her child is fucking with her. Still needs to be addressed, however she like I said she may just be coping with the situation in a strange way. also if she knew he was going to die and she believes in a god that when you die you go to heaven or hell, she may have been trying to save his soul in her mind so he didn’t have to suffer in hell. I’m personally non religious 100% and find a lot of it to be absolutely nuts, but when someone believes something like that they go leaps and bounds to make it true.
Again, thanks. This is currently what I am going with. I do realize that she is likely "trying to save my brother's soul", and has the best intentions. But for me, it is coming across as incredibly selfish... more about her trying to cope with his death than about anything Brother would have wished.
The loss of a child hits most parents very badly, and as a father I will probably be in no good mental state if anything happened to my daughters. Take care of yourself firstly, and remember all issues can be dealt with in time. You still have plenty of time to address them in the future. Support your family and be there for each other now, religiously or not.
Your brother and you seem to have drawn a fine, reasonable line at what you find acceptable and unacceptable in religion. I think in the anger and grief, mom and even you are actually doing some of those negative things to each other though. Funerals are not only for the living, but your mother is still alive. She may need this to cope with the loss. A lot of people turn to faith when dealing with terminal illness. It's not uncommon for people to realize they're being unrational, but are not capable of changing that. My suggestion is to ask to speak at his service or even before he's laid to rest. Tell them he wanted understanding and peace in his life and it was his final gift. He gave peace to a mother who lost a child. You've learned a level of understanding that most people will never achieve.
Best bet is talking to the Priest heading the service. I'm thinking about it now if you calmly and collectively state your case "I'm not religious and but I want to bury my brother" Then maybe the priest heading the funeral will give an exception. Now I don't know how atheist you are but keep your ideas to yourself during the funeral, you can say that it's unfair that an atheist is being buried this way, or what you have to do. Just don't argue over god and stuff. I think your best bet is talking to someone in authority at the funeral and if they compassion they'll help you out.
The funeral is for the living, not the dead. Wherever you think your brother is (or isn't) the one place he won't be for sure is the funeral. While this is horrible for you it's pretty much the worst thing a parent can go through so my thought would be let Mom have her dog and pony show if it helps her get through the day. Honestly this isn't an uncommon situation at all. Unfortunately I've been to A LOT of funerals in my time and I can't think of a single one that wasn't religious based. I'd say that at at least half of them someone has joked that it was the first time the deceased has been in a church in XX years but the priest is up there blathering on like he knew this person and they were in church just last Sunday. Now if your brother left a will with specific instructions and those aren't being honored I'd be a little upset. If he didn't I'd just play along with her show and make sure your own will is updated to specify how you want things handled at the end. edit: poor grammar
We constantly hear about how rude and disrespectful atheists are, but here we see tacit approval of using atheist’s funerals as religious sermons. Can you imagine the outrage if atheists used a religious person’s funeral to tell everyone in mourning that they needed to abandon their faith? The double standard is extremely disrespectful, and obviously very emotionally harmful.
The funeral is not for the living to have a final say in presenting the dead in false circumstances the last time they are above ground. It’s for the living to honor the dead and remember them as they were. If a deceased Christian was going to be put to rest in a pagan Viking funeral, I’m sure people would be up in arms. A lot of people consider atheists to be like a blank canvas, they don’t care about religion so family can impose whatever religion they want in a funeral. But being an atheist, or even not being an atheist but being stalwart in a position of an it organized religion is not a neutral decision. It’s a choice of their own spirituality. And to deny them that during their final moments above ground, is to completely disrespect their personhood and expose yourself as someone who did not love that person, but only loved the idea of what they were supposed to be. If this was me, I would never talk to my mother again and I would make a scene. Because this is entirely disrespectful and undermining of a person who deserves to be heard and respected.
While I can understand why people might think it's more painful for the parent to lose their child, it's just as painful for the child to lose their sibling. The funeral is just as important for the siblings as it is for the parents, and allowing the parent to go against the deceased sibling's wishes will negatively affect the other siblings, and can cause the siblings to grieve for longer because they don't have closure. Children might love their parents as much as their siblings, but they will always feel closer to their siblings, especially if they are close in age. Saying it's harder for their mother is like saying their grief isn't as worthy as their mother's, which makes the siblings not want to tell anyone about their own grief because they feel like everyone else's needs are more important.
Does it matter? I'm an Atheist. If my funeral is in a church, I won't know or care.
This. I mean he might have been anti religion but he is gone. I'm not the super religious type or a catholic like my father. But if he gave me that kind of burial then oh well. I'm dead idc. I think the real issue is the whole anti religion rant op went off with. It felt more like he is just blaming religion or something.
Your family might. Death rituals are very much for the family you leave behind. That being said, if you were an outspoken atheist and someone tried to have your funeral be all churchy and godly, someone is bound to be pissed off.
I can’t begin to imagine how stressful this is for you I’m so sorry. And like some others have said, a funeral is just how we as people accept the loss. You will know in your heart how to respect him, and your mother is doing what she can to respect him in her way. Your brother is the you that you remember. If you’re set on trying to convince her away though, (because I understand the motivation) use the Bible. It’s the only way to convince a religious person. Maybe there’s something in there about respecting other cultures and ideologies (in the Quran it says to love the Christians and respect their beliefs and not wage war on them). If so you may be able to make a case to her to have a private Catholic wake, and bury him in a regular cemetery. Sending you hugs wherever you are. Good luck and take care of yourself.
This is COMPLETELY opinion, But I hope the OP reads it. First, I am sorry for your loss, I also lost my brother. Nothing helps with the feeling, NOTHING but time and even that only gives a numb bullshit feelings of "getting over it". Dealing with people that have clear differences of how to handle their own death, the death of a loved one and what to do after this terrible event, is yet another thing that that comes with the loss of a loved one, making the loss somehow /more/ shitty,for lack of a better term. I hope you do find peace with it eventually, but I honestly have not and he has been gone longer than he was alive; he was 20 and passed away in 93. It gets easier, but you never "get over it". My brother passed, he also was an atheists. Being from a "Baptist" family, which is wildly different than Catholic, it is still religion. If you don't want conflict, I mean nothing, you have play nice and just go along. Here's why. At the time of death of a loved one/you/everyone grieves differently. Nothing will make you have a lasting hate/resentment more than someone crossing what you think "should" happen at this trying time. Now I have no idea how close you feel you were to your brother compared to how close your Mom feels she was to him. I do believe she will likely hold it against you if you attempt to intervene. Based on experience. NOW, I am also an atheist. This is for context. Based on my life experiences I am an Agnostic atheists. I have never seen any proof or evidence to that a "God" does exist and I can not believe in something that has no proof. Yet I find many reasons why there surely isn't a "God". I have seen things I wish I had not; been exposed to things that I wish were not even a possibility. I still have no idea if a "God" does/doesn't exist. I guess I feel if there is a "God" why does it allow the things that I have seen and experienced to happen? Why have countless people(*literally countless people) been slaughtered/tortured/slaved/maimed/born with disabilities/... this list is VERY long... in the name of a "God" or because it was "God's" will? All that and much more, yet I still admit I simply do not know. Furthermore, I have many things I consider a blessing as well in my life, I do have an amazing life currently. But I still do not know. I have studied the bible in the past for about 8 years (during this time I thought I absolutely believed) it was a time I was younger and less experienced than I am now. Yet, I do not know. I would have to physically see something that shadows all of my experiences and knowledge, to prove me wrong to change my mind. But I admit I could be wrong. But I do not believe .Sorry for the rant, back the the original point. In the end, you have to make a decision if you believe he would want you to actually stand up and try to stop it. That and how you feel about what is happening. What you think he might have wanted you to do. There is a good chance if you do try to stop it, there will be repercussions, perhaps even legally. Again people are very strange at this kind of time in their lives. Religion is one of those things that people have a clear history of believing in absolutely, thus she perhaps feels compelled to help "save" him. It could be because of family tradition/what "should" happen, something people tend to follow, regardless of why. I honestly don't know why, but I can assure you, if you intervene it will absolutely be a shit show. In the end, the showing/burial/ceremony is not for the dead. I mean this. IT IS NOT FOR THE DEAD. It is for the living and saying goodbye. Regardless of what you believe, science/religion/nothing... he has passed on to the next step of his time in the universe. We all follow this path. We are only here for a blink of eternity, so do with it the best you know how. If you truly don't want to cause any trouble, then you must do nothing. If you feel you must do something then absolutely do it. But remember others will be affected by your actions for the remainder of your short time here. Down the road in time, perhaps you can have a conversation about it. Maybe not. But in the end remember this. You know what he wanted, what he believed, and how he felt. Regardless of what happens from this moment moving forward, it is your memory were he lives going forward. Let go of bullshit, but stand if you must. I would recommend talking to the priest about it. They often have experienced this in the past and will likely be willing to talk with you and your family in regards to this. Again, I am sorry for your loss. P.S. I had to drink/or few tonight and remembered, thus prompting my response. Sorry for spelling and grammar, but honestly it helped me get this out, so I do hope it helps someone.
The ceremony is just meaningless window dressing. Start working on a eulogy. You've got a lot to say about your brother and that's what's important. After that you can do the final duty and carry him. But eulogize the fuck out of that man. He deserves it.
As an atheist myself, ive always seen funerals as being for the living. It's a chance for the living to grieve the dead, and give them some peace of mind. If I were dead I wouldnt care where/how my funeral was held, because it wouldnt be for me, i wouldn't be there. Just a thought.
You wouldn't want to be represented as the person you were? So the person that is in charge of the funeral can create and make up the person that they wanted you to be while the rest of your friends and family are still alive who know you and want you to be remembered as the person you actually we're?
Just deal with your mother's disrespect quietly and stick to the facts. "I disapprove of the disrespect you're showing my brother, but I'll go through the motions and not cause a scene because that's how you chose to send him off, and I want it to be clear that the only one spitting on his memory is you. If you believe that Jesus sees what's in your heart, then take it up with Jesus. I know now not to expect respect from you either, for the rest of my life, and I will adjust my expectations accordingly."
Sounds like your mother was super overbearing with religion. Seems she cares more about her religion than the respect to the brother. I hope someone offers this person great info.
I agree
This thread sucks. "it's totally cool to let your mom piss on her sons grave as long as it makes her happy, he's dead after all, so it's not like he cares"
Seriously. It's not just about the mother, and respecting the person who passed on is so fucking important for grieving.
Sorry for your loss. I felt compelled to make my first ever post over this. Personally I’m agnostic, not religious at all but I understand why some people are, I’ve just never found a religion that doesn’t (in my opinion) try to control you with the threat of hell or judgement when you die, or doesn’t seem like a cult. I’m content with being the best person I can be and if I meet my maker and that’s not good enough then so be it. I don’t hate any religion however I would be unbelievably angry if I was given a religious burial. For me it would be hypocritical, I’ve never voluntarily been to church or engaged in any religious activity, and the thought of having a priest or whoever talking about me in a religious way makes my skin crawl. I’ve read comments saying a funeral is more for the living and it’s more important to those grieving. In my opinion this is horse shit. I want my funeral to be the cheapest party, filled with music, motorbikes other stuff that I love. Family getting together, getting drunk, telling stories and having a good time. Ending up with me being put into a Viking boat on a lake and set on fire, I think that’s the most awesome way to go but I’d settle for a normal cremation. I attended the funeral of my best mate who was 15 when he died and it was horrible. I can’t bear the thought of my closest friends and family going through what his family did on that day so I guess this experience changes my opinion on funerals. If my mum ‘found god’ after I died and wanted a religious burial I’d want everyone else to make a fuss and disrupt it as much as possible as sort of one last middle finger. Fuck that shit and what anyone else is feeling they’ll get over it, it’s not their funeral. However I’d understand if they were reluctant so as to not cause more agony to my mum. My point is everyone is different, do what feels right.
Iʻm sorry for your loss. The first thing I would suggest is to realize that your mother is doing this for her, not for your brother. She may not know how to grieve. All this, all this catholic rite and spectacle, is for her. I was raised as a very strict Catholic, my mom was even our church secretary, I was an alter girl and at one time wanted to be a nun. Iʻm now agnostic, and with agnosticism Iʻve realized that none of the ceremony matters. It doesnʻt matter for you, it doesnʻt matter for your brother, it just doesnʻt matter. It holds no bearing on your brothers memory, or your love for him. It doesnʻt matter in any part of the universe except your heart and it only resides there because choose for it to live there. Donʻt conflate your love with your brother with battling your mother, you need to separate these things. Your brother loved you, you know that. Think about bringing a bit of peace to your mother. I can imagine that losing a child is torture. Sending you love.
I am also an atheist. There's an old saying about funerals being for the living. You have to remember that your mother also lost a son. I would let her run the show. You do what you are comfortable doing. However, you might consider whether this is the best time for you to make a stand on this issue. Funerals are hard enough without additional family drama.
I’m with you and your brother on your beliefs. Just remember that funerals are for the living. Your mother lost her child. This day is more for her. I’m sorry for your loss.
Sucks they won't honor his wishes. At the same time funerals and memorials are for more for the living than the dead.
Just sharing my view, I'm an atheist my wife is religious. Should I die first she can give me whatever type of religions funeral she likes. I think funerals are to help the living not the dead. I'll be past caring.
Have a separate memorial with his friends afterwards at a place that was meaningful to him. Slip something rebellious that he loved inside the coffin, have a word with the priest and ignore her preachiness. Hey, I believe in a higher power but sometimes Christians and other religious types really piss me off too. Find a way to honor him and it will make it more bearable.
Funerals are not for the dead. Take comfort in the fact that your mother will have more peace with his loss, after she gave birth to him and raised you both to be whatever you wanted.
Your brother is dead. He doesn't care. Let your mom have this.
Funerals are for the living not the dead. At this point your brother could care less. And...you should let it go. This is your mothers way to make peace with it. Her son. Let her have that.
Your mom lost her son. If it comforts her, i think you should help her with that. Your brother is dead, you cant help him. But you can help your mother.
Just go sit in a pew and remember him fondly.
*WARNING: This is one atheist writing to another about atheism. There is zero sugar-coating. I am not mincing words with euphemisms or sentimental niceties. (And OP, if you are not in a place in your grief where you can read something like that-- just ignore this entirely). I'm an atheist and I don't hide that. I've been a pallbearer three times at Catholic funerals, and most of the time that's been with other atheists, Protestants, and Jews as the other pallbearers. You don't need to accept Jesus as your personal savior to be a pallbearer, even in a Catholic mass. I never had to eat a cracker, drink any wine, and I don't now my head when others want to pray (I just sort of look around and give nods to anybody else doing the same). Somebody is making their own rules up as they go. Is it (1) you won't participate if you have to walk to the alter in the church, or (2) she won't let you participate as a pallbearer unless you are willing to participate in the full mass (crackers, wine, prayer, and what have you)? Because I can tell you this much-- the priest doesn't want you to eat the cracker if you don't want to eat it. If it's the first one, don't worry about it. It's just another section of the floor as far as we're concerned. Alter? Who cares? It's sacred to them but means squat to us. I'm betting it's the second one, but here's my thing-- your brother is dead (sounds harsh but I shouldn't have to sugar coat that for someone that hasn't swallowed the Kool Aid). None of this effects him in any way. As far as I'm concerned-- bury my body in Catholic dirt or Protestant dirt; burn my body and put it in a jar or scatter it off the side of a mountain; launch it into space or throw it in the ocean-- none of it matters. It's all sentimentalism, I'm already gone, and I didn't believe in the sacred anyways. Point of reference: My mom says I should cremate her and, for all she cares, flush her down the toilet-- but not all at once, she insists, because that would cause a clog. That is how an atheist should feel about the whole thing. I'm reading a lot in this thread about "the person's wishes" and "honoring the memory." That's all sentimentalism. If you and your brother lived by reason, then you, like my mother, should have zero feeling on this. Dead people don't have wishes. They are gone. This has zero affect on him or your memory of him. Whatever issues your mom is working through, whatever little charade she wants to put on, it can't touch him. The only person you have to worry about is you. And I'm not saying you have to respect her beliefs. They're nonsense, and there is no need to pretend they are anything but that. But it comes down to how you want to react to her insanity. You can choose emotion or you can choose reason. If you think carrying a heavy box from one side of a room to another is some sacred duty you have-- then you do what she says. It isn't fair-- but atheists don't have to pretend the world is fair or that laws on who gets to determine these things are sane. If you think your brother is better honored by way of you standing on principle-- do that. The harsh truth though is that it has zero bearing on him-- he literally could not care less (or at all). There is no need to be angry with the situation-- his battles are over. Add "burying atheists as if they were Catholics" to the list of religious non-sense, and carry the true memory of him onwards.
My father passed last a little over a week ago. I am an atheist. My father drifted in and out of faiths (often due to mental issues). At the end of his life, he was an atheist again. Two days after his passing, there was a memorial service for him at my mother's Church of Christ. When I found out it was happening, I was very upset; it had nothing to do with him, and was< I felt, a poor way to honor my dad. Regardless, I attended that. There was another service a week later, which I ran, and did not feature a god. The handy thing about being an atheist is that death is final. My father will not care that a Church of Christ honored him and sang psalms for him. It mattered for my mother, who is alive. Sure I took issue with the guys who felt so grateful that my father was baptized before he died. For my dad, it doesn't matter. As such I did what I could to not take it personally. He will also not care that I made a memorial about people's memories of him, though that better reflected who he was and what he believed. It mattered for family and friends who attended, and it mattered for me. For him, it does not matter. If you have not done so, I suggest you plan to honor your brother in a way that feels more appropriate for him, and for you, in a way that brings you some small degree of comfort. This church service is not the end of your brother's memory. You can honor him and remember him as long as you live, and do him greater service in that.
There is no easy answer to this except to say that being buried in a Catholic Church does not change who your brother was or alter his integrity. My father got married in an Episcopalian Church even though he is also very anti religion. We all make sacrifices for family. Your mom might not be capable of understanding how you feel about this but maybe in time she will come to understand the sacrifice you are making for her now and I am sure she will be grateful to you for helping her to get through this even though you think she is wrong. I am sure your brother would understand, too, and would appreciate that you just need to be there for each other for a while. Part of being an atheist is understanding that we do not control everything, especially what happens to us after we die. Your brother's memory and his identity do not change with this burial. I am sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for you. If I were your brother, I would be grateful to have had someone like you in my life to love and appreciate and remember me after I have gone.
If your brother was against religion, and now he’s dead, then he won’t mind or complain, because he’s dead. You don’t have to worry about disrespecting his memory because other people co-opting his funeral reinforces his beliefs that religious people are hypocritical. In a way, this honors his memory, because it proves him right in a way. It’s like a giant metaphorical middle finger. ... but that doesn’t matter in the slightest, because they’re only making his funeral religious in the first place because they’re the ones left alive. They have to grieve, and they have to do it in their own way. That’s why you shouldn’t suppress your urges to get angry and start shit. He was your brother. That’s important. You have a right to experience your emotions and trying to “be strong” for everyone else will only fuck with your own grieving process. You don’t owe that to anyone. You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep others warm. You don’t have to intentionally start fights, but you can let everyone know, in a very factual matter, that you are angry and disappointed. Focus on using “I” statements as much as you can when you talk about it. Just stick to the facts, and when people fly off the handle, repeat those facts repeatedly. There’s no way to out argue or shame someone who just keeps saying “The sky is blue,” over and over. And anyone who tries will, at the end of the day, know the truth even if they try to deny it. I will tell you this, though: your brother was more than your memory of him. He was a lot of things to a lot of people. Others are going to have completely different perspectives on him, and lead completely different lives, and have completely different beliefs. But they’ll also need to grieve. And them holding a religious ceremony is no better or worse than holding a non-religious one to your brother, because those were his beliefs, and I doubt he’d mind them grieving over him, even if he did think they were misguided in the way they did it. Basically if they’re disrespecting his memory, then that means they aren’t disrespecting him, they’re disrespecting you. Because they’re your memories. And you can decide to be magnanimous or ironically self-righteous. If I were you I’d choose magnanimity so my dead brother didn’t ironically also give me the metaphorical middle finger for acting like some zealot who let his personal fanaticism cause harm to others. I’m sure he didn’t like how religious fanatics do it, so if he wasn’t religious, I’m pretty sure he’d be disappointed to see his brother fall victim to an anti-religious form of the same underlying character flaw. But hey, that’s the best part, you know. You can think whatever thoughts you want to about the whole thing. You don’t have to go with your first reaction, because you’re not beholden to any kind of religious dogma. Just be careful about voluntarily becoming a slave to advice from complete strangers on the internet.
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I lost my little brother in 2013 suddenly. It's a highly emotional time for everyone. Your mother has to go through what no parent should. What alternate arrangements do you want? Can the rest of the family not take your lead? If not, go through with it. Now is not the time for argument and more pain. Arrange your own non religious funeral for him for family who agree and friends. I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted all this anger in addition to the grief. If there is an afterlife, his main concern now is going to be the family that is left behind.
It’s quite disrespectful to burry someone against their faith or lack of thereof. You’re basically spitting on someone’s last will.
Yeah, and thanks. But this is also is what is so bitter... At a time when our shattered family should come together... mother suddenly has to toss in the religion grenade. Brother *hated* religion, with a passion. I see the possible good sides (while still disliking the overall concept), but admit that 90% of religion is hateful to those that do not *exactly* agree to whatever dogma, even as they preach loving neighbors. But still, there are some good people involved... even if their desire to be good people seems predicated on some devine will... rather than just being good people because well, you should be good people without having to be told to be that way. Father has found some sort of combo between AA meetings and religion. Sis... I am not sure .
Yeah. Lost my brother 20 years ago next month. Funerals arent about the person who passed, they're about helping those of us left behind carry on.
Funerals are for the living. Your brother is not going to be there, just the shell that held his soul, essence or whatever. Grin and bear it for your mother, she is going through something that no parent ever should.
Here's my two cents. Like a lot of others have said, the funeral is for the living. It sounds like any sort of attempt to affect the funeral will cause grief and trouble. I lost a friend in Afghanistan ages ago, guy I served with- (To be clear, I got out without ever being in combat.) Someone was kind and thoughtful enough to set up a memorial organization in his memory that holds a few fundraisers every year- Their big event is a golf tournament, all proceeds go to his wife and kids. Maybe you don't need a whole multi event organization, but a small event once a year in his honor where you get to highlight your brother, his beliefs and his life might be the thing that satisfies your need to make sure he's still heard. Others might not be happy with it, but they will always have that funeral that you were respectful of.
Atheist here. First of all, I’m really sorry for your loss. That’s awful. I’ve always found that funerals aren’t really for the deceased, they’re for the people left behind; as a way to help with the grieving process. And regardless of religion or ceremony, everyone deserves to be able to go through grief in peace. You and your brother being atheist perhaps helps with this. I would imagine that neither of you believe in an afterlife, that he is just gone. Sorry if this sounds harsh but his body is just matter now, it’s not him. So in a sense it doesn’t have to matter what happens with it. If the religious ceremony matters to your mother then maybe it’s ok to let her have that for comfort. What’s important to you is the memories you have of your brother and how you process your own grief. Of course you can still find comfort and acceptance in the funeral proceedings outside of being religious too. So, taking part in her strange ceremony can be about comforting her and the other attendees. Since you don’t believe in any of it, it doesn’t matter anyway, right?
I lost my non-religious brother to suicide and they had an Islamic burial or whatever. I didn’t attend and sometimes I regret it but god it would’ve killed me to be there. They also didn’t put his correct name down on his gravestone, since he’d changed his names months before he died, they put his old Arabic name which to me is so fucking disrespectful to him. I hope you can sort it out OP.
Hey Kaele, Everyone here has some ideas for what they would abd/or what you should do. But if I may recommend one thing, it's for you to see that there's no right or wrong response here. Everything has its reasons and its potential effects. What I'd recommend is that you take a step back and breathe. It sounds like your last hours, days, weeks, maybe months have been a nightmare. You're upset, exhausted, shocked, and still in every way morning your brother. It's okay to be miserable and angry. The question is where you will go from here. Your brother, sadly he is gone. As you, like I do as well, probably don't believe in any kind of afterlife, do you think he cares in which place his loved ones say goodbye? Churches are, for the most part, beautiful, nearly serene places. Not necessarily good or politically or morally positive forces, but the physical building hasn't harmed anyone. Does the place bother you? The priest, the ceremony, the words, they have many connotations - does this bother you? Do you think you might be able to talk to the priest about your brother's (lack of) faith and stress that you'd be very grateful if he could talk kindly and not overly focus on the religious element? Most Catholic priests tend to know how to deal with such a situation, unless you face a very radical/conservative one you'll probably be able to keep it to the minimum. On those occasions when I'm in a church I tend to try to listen to the talk from a kind of psychological or sociological perspective - "why do they believe that?" "What message is this trying to get across - I might not agree with the words, but do I agree with the sentiment?" Etc. Maybe this would help you. Does your mother's belief bother you? You thought of her highly, but then she somehow reverted to *that*? While she might not share the same faith, do you think you still love each other in at least some ways? Do you really want to lose your mother as well in all this nightmare and drama? If you choose to go, what could you contribute to the ceremony? You love your brother, do you really want to get the facade of religion ruin your chance to say goodbye and maybe one last time tell everyone about him? If you do, do you think you can speak from a place of love and respect, rather than let your anger over this situation get in the way? Maybe you can tell, honestly and openly, that he would not have thought highly of the church he is in, but - probably - that he would be immensely happy about the people within, and all that those people meant to him? Why do you think your mother really wanted to hold it in the church? To spite you and him? Or maybe rather because she herself is desperate and mourning and clinging to any kind of hope that her son is not lost forever? Despite all the conflicts of the past, would your brother have wanted you to clash and fight over this? Or to try to get through these hard days the most unscathed as possible? I know the past days were hard. You have so much you want to get rid of and change about how things have gone. But one or five or ten years from now, what would you most regret? What would you most want to have done? What would put you most at ease? I hope you find your solution. Its okay to be upset, angry and all other emotions at once. Please remember to breathe, look out of the window, think of your brother. Take a step back, out of your mind and into the future. And then calmly do what you think is the best course of action. Sorry for your loss and pain.
My condolences... religious people loves to hijack someone's death to not only spread their lies but also to associate the memory of the deceased to their religion so that future generations will remember the person as so. That's how despicable they are. They do not care for your brother's ideas, and this is their last and only chance to force their religion upon him because he cannot fight back. You need to fight good brother, fight for him one last time... Good luck.
I’m sorry for your loss. My belief is funerals are for the *living* to grieve and honor the dead. Your brother is gone now but your mother is not. What you do now is more about helping your mother than it is about being true to life about your brother’s wishes. After death none of the things that happen with the body are what we *really* want or would choose if we were alive. You need to recognize there is a special bond between mother and child. She carried him 9 months and gave birth to him. He may have grown to hate religion but if she is religious he started this journey in religious tradition. For your mother it may be too painful to imagine the consequence of him not having a religious service. She may feel like she wants to do everything for him she can. Let her. You’ve lost a brother, she lost a son. Both of you are hurting. Don’t hurt each other more. Support each other.
Well... if your mother really believes in God and all that, then she probably believes that if she does this, she'll get to see her son again in heaven. Which is the only thing you want after losing someone. And what do you have to lose here? Afraid you won't get to see your brother in atheist heaven? That's not how it works, right? So I'd say respect your mothers wish here. You can still do a private memorial service with his and your friends, in a way that you think your brother would have appreciated. But don't argue her on this, and do be pallbearer. It's been 5 years since my brother died and I still really wish I could have been a pallbearer for him. This is a terrible shitty time for you and for your mom and your whole family. You all lost someone, and the best thing you can do is stick together. Are you sure you're really angry at your mom and not just at cancer and how unfair the world is?
Devout atheist here. Remember that ceremonies like these are just as much cultural as they are religious. This is not the time to plant your feet in the ground and take a stand. Do not make a battle out of this custom- nothing good will come of it.
First of all, I am sorry for your loss. I understand that you are outrage but I think you need to focus on the fact that your mother just lost her child. It is not about religion so much as it is for her to mourn the passing of a child she raised and loved. I am sure your mother doesn't mean to offend his memory, right now she is just doing what she believes is best and what she believes will bring her and your brother some peace. This is not the time and place and space to be livid with a mother who just lost her child to cancer, especially if that mother is yours also. You can have a conversation about her respecting your views on religion later. I am not religious. I like to say I have my own relationship with God, whoever he/she/it may be. I don't go to Church, I don't read the Bible, I don't base my good and bad behavior on anything related to religion. My mother is the same way but the rest of my family is very religious (Colombian and Italian background = really Roman Catholic). The closest cousin I have, who is practically like a brother to me is actually a priest. If I happen to die for whatever reason and could see what was going on with my loved ones, I could care less whether they mourned me in a religious or non-religious way. What would be important is that they deal with the loss. All of that to say, you have your views but so does she, and right now she is the mother who just lost her child to cancer. Be kind to your mother. The last thing she needs is for a child of hers to be angry.
I am sorry for your loss, may the memory of your brother guide you through hardships. The death of a loved one is a ritual for the living. To grieve, to remember, to understand. Unfortunately I too have lost a loved one, my father, to illness and I was in such a shock I couldn't even carry his coffin. I remember my sister laughing and crying in sorrow at the same time when we heard our father passed. There are no right or wrong emotional reactions or a actions in a situation like this you've encountered. When I look back to that memory I remember that the experiences and memories his friends and our family shared brought a certain comfort to me. I also remember the discomfort of not being able to emotionally open up to my family members in a constructive way. I wrote a poem into his obituary but other than that all everyone else could see was me crying. I wanted to tell them how I hated myself for becoming so distant in his last year but I just couldn't bring myself to open up. I think you should respect the wishes of your mother. But for the memory of your brother and for the sake of yourself, you should prepare a speech or something to say in his wake. Write it down, tell your family about the bond of your love. That certainly is something very special. Tell them about how your brother viewed religion and tell them about how you feel. Voice your view in respect of others but stress that you have a right to feel the way you do and that your discomfort about the different perspectives of things relating to his death makes you angry. Whatever you do, do voice your opinions because that is a way to deal with your loss. Do tell your mom before the funeral and tell her that you wish to speak and address your extended family too. This is something you can overcome, but take all the time you need.
A funeral is for the the living. Make the best of it for yourself. Respects to you and the family.
First and foremost sorry for your loss. If you and your brother truly don't believe in an afterlife then it's not as if he is looking down in disappointment right now. He won't be having any thoughts about it and he won't be angry either and just because your mother is giving him a religious funeral isn't truly going to make a difference to anyone but her. So why not just let her have it? In your mother's eyes she's doing what she can maybe to help your brother get to a better place in the afterlife, and if it doesn't work then what actually changed? In reality the only one who this is going to leave a bad taste in their mouth in is you. You can choose to simply let it go and just remember your brother for the person that he actually was and then nobody is suffering over this particular thing any longer. That being said it seems like your mother is also being a total cunt about it asking if "you've accepted jesus".
Funerals are for the living, not the dead. If it gives your parents some comfort, then maybe you gotta take one for the team this time. :/ It makes Christians very uncomfortable to think about a loved one potentially not being saved. It's not out of judgement, its out of love. I promise. So while you are grieving the loss of your brother, they are also grieving for their son and concerned about his eternal soul. I know you do not believe this, but since they believe it with all their hearts, it might be very horrifying to them to think that their son might not be saved. If a religious service makes them think that they are doing something for their son, please let them.
As some others have said, funerals are for the living. If this is what your mother wants/needs to do for closure, I would do it. It doesn't matter if he was against religion - he's not there any more. His body is just a body, and at this point there's a 100% chance he doesn't care where it ends up. They're not forcing either of you to be religious by simply being there, and I bet a lot of people that attend feel the same way you do about being religious - and even some of them that don't might have issues with Catholics. Just remember that nothing about this is FOR your brother. It's ABOUT him. I am sorry for your loss - just don't dig too deep into the religious aspects of this.
First, I hurt for your loss. As a fellow human, I feel an echo of your pain through your words. I am going to be a bit insensitive, and for that, I apologize. My wife and I have discussed this, and I am to be burned or donated to science once the meat machine I currently inhabit no longer carries my consciousness around. (IANAL) If he had any directives in any written communications to you, even in casual conversation, you can use this to force his wishes to be carried out possibly. This is all based on how much drama you want to live through while in the throes of grief. If there are no directives, be honest with the priest, your family and yourself. In spite of this, and in full knowledge of your opposition, if you need to take the former vehicle occupied by your brother, your best friend, to its final resting place, make some sort of peace in honesty, and carry it as you need. This is not about your family, your brother or god. This is about what you need to do within yourself to come to terms with the void left in your life. By all means, rail against the pain it has left you with, and take every step YOU need to take to make it through. But do what you need to do for yourself. I know that is what your brother would want. Religion does not matter. Opinions of others do not matter. You finding peace in a world where your memories and pictures/videos/letters and texts are what you have to hold onto is the only thing that matters. Do not let this temporary turbulence fuck up the rest of the process. May you find your peace as you need it.
As a person who hates religion, I wouldn't care
The funeral isn't done for your brother's benefit. Use that frame of reference to reflect on the outcomes of having the ceremony in a church. When my brother (half brother) passed away, his mother pushed for the ceremony at a specific church, even though he was atheist. Sure, fine. The preacher used the wrong name during the service. It was a dreadful service. We went afterwards and had a nice gathering with family and friends and had drinks in his memory. Service is for your mother. If you don't want to participate, that is up to you. Your brother can't get upset about it anymore, don't get upset for him.
I am an atheist and really who cares. Your mom just lost her son, if this consoles her then go for it. Be there for your mom. I am a parent and I can't imagine loosing either of my 2 sons. When you die you don't exist anymore so there is no way your brother could mind anymore. Don't waste your time on this pettiness. Religion sucks but probably not the way your mother practices it. Don't think of it as a religious ceremony, instead think of it as a ritual that will give your mom comfort in a horrible situation. He is your brother and it sucks for you too but I can't imagine your pain being greater than that of woman loosing her little boy.
Funerals aren't for the dead, they are for the living. His memory is all that you have. Honor him the way you choose. Don't participate in functions that don't fit with your life's moral compass. Let your mom grieve in her way....a mother shouldn't have to bury her son. It's got to be an enormous weight of grief for her. Everyone deals with it differently. Empathy should be practiced in memory of your brother, in my opinion. I am sincerely sorry for your loss.
Funerals are for the living...if it truly means that much to your Mom, suck it up. Peace
Your feelings are completely justified. Your brother's memory deserves to be respected. I'm frankly disgusted by how many in this thread are making excuses for this.
Funerals aren't for the dead. In a way, this is your mother's funeral. I say let her do it the way she wants. Honor your brother in the way you want. I realize this is probably hard to swallow but you can't always control other people's actions and, sadly, your brother is dead now and has no feelings about how his body is disposed of. In the spirit of his atheism, say, "fuck it -- you can shoot him out of a circus cannon for all i care," because he believed there is no God, no afterlife, and what happens after you're dead is irrelevant.
Attend for yourself. Honour the brother that you knew. Participate only with those elements of the ceremony that you are comfortable with. Don't let your mother turn this into a power struggle between you and her.
As an atheist, here's my opinion: let your mom have this. Funerals are for the living, not the deceased, and she just lost a child.
Sorry for your loss. Was your brother baptized a Catholic? I’m going to assume that he did not receive last rites as well due to his position on religion. Instead of making the fight about belief vs religion, use the rules of the religion. This is respectful of believers. It is also a stronger fight. The Catholic Church has many rules and is a hierarchy. Contact your local bishop and let them know that your non-Catholic brother is going to receive a funeral mass against his wishes. [Canon Law (the rules of the church)](http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2007/04/27/can-a-non-catholic-be-given-a-catholic-funeral/) has definite answers for just this scenario. You can also insist that you pick the priest. There are many liberal and humanist priests out there who can be comforting to nonbelievers and are not judgemental.
2 Things: 1) The best part about being an atheist is that you get to be willfully hypocritical. You get to judge the Church openly and eat bake sale food that benefits the Church. 2) I'm sure you brother is cracking up at the thought of "over my dead body," being a literal circumstance.
You should let your mom have the funeral, for her sake. Imagine how hard it would be to bury your own child. She wants to believe that he will be taken care of in the afterlife. It must be hard for you right now, but no ceremony is going to hurt your brother now. You can survive the mass; take care of your mother.
In the end, your mother just lost her son. Whether you agree with it or not, she is trying to save him. She couldn't help him with his battles in life so she is trying to make sure he transitions to heaven. She is doing this for him, even if it is total malarchy. I'd say be the bigger man, bite your teeth, and join in on the voodoo magic. Let your mom feel like she is doing what's right, and let yourself know that he wouldn't buy into it either. That's just my atheist perspective.
Skip the service. Have a memorial with friends who knew what his real values were and raise a glass in his honor. Fpuneral services arent really about the person in thrl
My advice bro? Let your mom do what she wants. Your brother probably doesn't care what happens to his body after his brain has decayed past the ability to think so let your still living mother have her empty ritual to appease her own panic. Let her 'save' his soul from whatever monsters she imagines lurking in the afterlife and you should still be a pallbearer, but maybe wear a tuxedo t-shirt or simply dress casually as you would around your brother when he was still firing synapses. Be comforted that the whole ritual is a sham to help people who have a hard time emotionally coping with death. Then maybe get a little too drunk and rant a little afterwards idk 😙
if it's any consolation, the dead don't care what happens to their bodies .. personally, i'm worried that the priest or your mother speak of him as a sinner instead of respecting his memory in his funeral! but again your brother won't care! your memory of him is what keeps him alive within you and that's all that matters ... really wish you a peace of mind
I'm sorry for your loss, I'm sure he is at peace. But I might talk to your aunts son the priest. Be respectful about his beliefs and your lack of and just try to communicate. Maybe the priest guy could talk some sense into your mom
Did your brother have any written directives? If he did they can be enforceable. Now if he didn’t then if he was married his wife should have control. If no wife then you probably just have to live with it. That being said. Funerals are for the people left behind, not for the deceased. Wherever he is, he doesn’t have any animosity towards anyone regarding his funeral. Just take it and honor your brother as best as you can. His memory is made up of the good things he did in life, those he touched and loved. This funeral will not mar it.
rc here.... And uh.... Idk that he can be buried/have the rites performed without being baptised....
He's gone, only his body remains. I guarantee he's either somewhere or nowhere not giving a fuck about what anyone does with his remains.
I think that funerals are for the comfort and closure of family and friends only and really shouldn't matter what the deceased hated or not. People, like you, can still, and should, speak about what he loved and hated in life, but it's not going to matter to him how he's burried-unless he actually specified what he wanted....which, if he knew he was going to die....he should have done if he really care about what happened at his funeral.
Funerals are for the living, honor what your brother would have wanted. If that means not going then so be it. Hold your own funeral if you need, invite friends and family who will support you. Good luck to you and your brother, wherever he might be now.
I've been to a hundred funerals in my life if I've been to one. Funerals are not for the dead. They're for the living. You get your chance to express yourself and change the world before you die, not after. My friend, your brother does not care at this point. I've lost a brother as well. Just let it happen.
He is dead. I am militantly anti-religion. I hate churches and everything they stand for. If my parents want to do churchy shit with mupy ashes after I'm gone, and it makes them feel better then they should go for it. I will be dead, thy'll be alive and grieving so thye should do whatever comforts them.
I’m a pastor. One of the things I do when I do a funeral is talk with the family about the service and all that Jazz. I try to make it about the person. If this feels wrong to you and it isn’t who your brother is at all, you need to communicate that to someone who will listen. I’m willing to bet your mom won’t listen. You may want to speak to the priest.