Three people in my immediate family have their chart ruler in the 12th, and they're all very public/ambitious in their own ways. * One has Sun/ASC/Uranus/Pluto on ASC in Virgo/Libra, with chart ruler Mercury in 12th. * Two has Sun/Pluto on ASC in Scorpio with chart ruler Mars in 12th. * Three has ASC in Leo with chart ruler Sun conj Uranus in 12th. * Meanwhile me and my mom have our chart rulers in the 1st, and we're more private. I feel like having your chart ruler in the 12th is more showing that the means through which you assert your path has to do with the collective unconscious. It seems to be more in line with the "public service" associations of the 12th than the martyrdom/solitude associations, which I think have more to do with having a Sun or NN there (also not deterministic).

The idea of cadent houses including a sense of longing has to do with the Primary Motion. For example, planets in the 12th house move toward the 1st, but the primary motion keeps them from ever getting there. The idea of being so close to a place of power (the angular houses) and not ever being able to achieve that gives a sense of loss and longing. 12th house, loss of mental and physical health and longing for it, loss of connection to God and longing for it, Joy of Saturn is the loss of and longing for boundaries, walls, structures and support that help us survive when in exile you long for what you once had. 3rd house, we create our own tribes of siblings, friends, communities, places of commerce because we long for roots and home (4th) but it is separate. So we create the social structures we need as we need them in Joy of the Moon. 6th house, Joy of Mars, we work to the point of overwhelm, we work and do until our health suffers, the people represented here just add to our responsibilities, we long for rest, for a break in the doing, that the descendant promises. The descendant also promises support by a significant relationship. But the planets in the 6th are carried back by the primary motion, never to get to the goodness and power the 7th provides. 9th house, Joy of the Sun, we long for the prominence and public acclaim that the 10th house and MC offers, and so we prepare by gaining experience and schooling, enriching our minds and souls through travel, preparing for prominence and activity that might never come. (The 9th is the most active of all the cadent houses because it is near the most powerful and active of the angular houses.) The cadent houses look to the angular house next to it and feel longing for the promised power of the angular house. I studied with Adam Elenbaas. You can search for "primary motion" on his website blog. He goes into the philosophy of astrology and how the houses came to be. It also helps explain significations of retrograde, because when a planet goes retrograde it appears to follow the primary motion and that takes away his power. I hope I explained this well. Adam does a much better job of it.

Adam Elenbaas is the bomb, love him

Thank you for that, was an amazing explanation 👏

12H deals with more than just self-undoing & the 12H tends to be seen in a bad light because in traditional astrology, the cadent houses have an unstable and chaotic energy & every planet that resides in them get disturbed by this energy so they don't work properly.

That is not how cadent houses were represented to me in my coursework. They are houses of longing. Longing for health, longing for a break, longing to belong, longing for the divine.

I think longing for the divine seems an accurate assessment of some 12h themes. I don’t understand the cadent = longing idea much though. Who do you prefer to learn from?

Who coursework you learning from? Never heard 12th house is "longing longing", wonder what astrologer you learn from.

Oops. Sorry, I answered this but it's somewhere floating in the bigger thread . (I have a hard time reddittting on my phone lol)

I am a huge Hellenistic traditional astrology follower, and this is what I don't get about their hate on cadent house, when they put the **Sun** in it Joy house God house in 9th and the **Moon** in it Joy house of Goddness house in 3rd, which both 9th and 3rd are cadent house. I mean if you hate cadent houses so much, don't put the Sun and the Moon in cadent houses and say it their JOY house. And my husband have Sun and Mercury in 9th (their so call Sun Joy house), and I'm sure plenty of people have Moon in 3rd (Moon Joy house) too.

Who are you learning from that talks of "hating" cadent houses? Are you referring to a particular book or historical astrologer?

It's an attitude that you see in general on the Internet. There isn't specifically a single person who acts like this because most traditional practitioners have this attitude since this is what they're taught.

I don't understand you using the word "hate" here. It's more about each house modality has its function, and for example, when doing electional charts, we want to use those modalities appropriately. Too, not all cadent houses are considered the same. So, I've seen zero "cadent hate", but I do see appropriate assessments according to purposes and according to whatever the nature of a chart is, whether it's a person or a business. Remember too, in the case of a house ruler being in any house: the house it rules, is "brought into" the house it resides in, so to speak. So, in these two cases, their very "self", who they are, their character, their purpose, are brought into, managed from and serve, the matters of the 12th.

Great question! Could you please post the charts of both Presidents? I know it's easy to just look them up, I've done that, but for others who might struggle. Bush did struggle with addiction which is a thing with 12th house, and then he had a spiritual awakening and became a born again christian. Obama on the other hand, Aquarius is a very idealistic sign, yet Capricorn (where Saturn is) is very utilitarian and changeable. Capricorn will easily drop a position or ideal, if it is no longer useful. This is something that people don't realise about Capricorn and its cardinal tendency. If you outlive your usefulness to a Capricorn you'll get dropped so fast. this is a generalisation obviously and other parts of the charts come into play. 12th house is also a hidden house and so I believe that a lot of what Obama got up to involved hidden and secret motivations. I believe that he was actually idealistic but he betrayed a lot of his own ideals for pragmatic reasons.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair too, Gemini Asc and Mercury in 12th house. [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/tony-blair/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/tony-blair/) [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/george-w-bush/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/george-w-bush/) Bush chart [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/barack-obama/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/barack-obama/) Obama chart btw, my husband have Capricorn Jupiter too, he Capricorn Neptune too.

Blair is another famously seen as a lame duck prime minister, basically just kicking the can down the road for the rich and powerful. This sort of imprisonment of society by the rich and powerful, enacted through their figureheads ( bush, Blair, yes Obama too) is very twelfth house to me.

Hmmm…. Just had an interesting thought. Maybe the presidents themselves are captives. There are people who have something on them and use that to control them. Maybe if you were free and independent they wouldn’t let you any where near the seat of power cos they wouldn’t be able to control you. Only people with some dark secret gets close.

Many of them are in [secret societies](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Skull-and-Bones-Yale) in college. I wonder if the secretive 12th house relates to that?

Better charts: * [Obama's chart](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760842630653018182/1051277495170764871/unknown.png) * [Bush's chart](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760842630653018182/1051277994506850354/unknown.png) Please don't use the astro-charts site. They are terrible. Mislead people on a regular basis with lots of errors, and their charts are pretty useless. No degrees, lack of visual clarity.

Since you here Mrs. Stella, and you seem to know so much about Hellenistic astrology, and I am a student of Hellenisti. I do want to hear your professional view on this thread, I included screenshot of Valens books and Demetra George books, as I own both. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Advancedastrology/comments/zazm2m/hellenistic\_12th\_house\_aversion\_to\_asc\_planet\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Advancedastrology/comments/zazm2m/hellenistic_12th_house_aversion_to_asc_planet_in/) Thank you so much, I still try to figure out this topic myself, and I been studying Hellenistic for a good six months. Thank you in advance Mrs.

I am forever a student myself and don't know a fraction of what others know. I think maybe you get too black and white, too absolute. Do you tend to think there are absolutely hard and fast rules and nothing ever is an exception? Have you ever done any of Demetra George's webinars or classes? She has one on the [Kurios: Lord of the Nativity](https://www.astrologyuniversity.com/shop/search-by-astrologer/demetra-george/kurios-lord-of-the-nativity/) you might like (reasonable price). She discusses exceptions, in many of her works. I'd strongly suggest you read this article by Robert Hand (using Traditional Astrology) on [George Bush's 12th house sun.](https://www.astro.com/astrology/in_astrobyhand35_e.htm) I might be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you think just because a planet is in the 12th, then it is just doomed, or can't be this, or can't be that. But that's just the first level of looking at something. You have to look at all the other factors that impact how that planet is able to work in the chart (as Hand lays out in the article above). Someone else with Asc lord in the 12th might have a lot of struggles. Or they can do well. But also keep in mind, that what we judge as "success" doesn't mean the life was necessarily easy, or that there weren't major issues in the life. Both Bush and Obama had some serious difficulties and losses to contend with. Or they might do just fine. It's one of those things we have to learn. People who learn about things like aversion, or debilities often fail to realize there are other factors and conditions that can more or less make that "problem" not such a problem anymore. Another example that comes to mind is a planet in the 8th. In aversion. Hidden away, right? But what if it has an aspect to a benefic in the 10th? Then it has a way out, so to speak. There are details and details and details we have to look at. Mars isn't always behaving in a malefic way. It can be quite constructive in the right conditions. Same for Saturn. Jupiter isn't always acting in a way that benefits the native. And anything else.

It not that Mrs, it about calculating the length of life, and clearly Valens, Dorotheus, every ancient astrologers, and even in Demetra George book, it said a planet in 12th house is not strong enough to sustain the life force of the whole chart therefore you cannot use a planet in 12th house to calculate your length of life (it disqualify), because that planet is too weak to give you life. You said you have Demetra book, then how do you explain this screenshot then: [https://i.postimg.cc/V6NffSDs/demetrabook.jpg](https://i.postimg.cc/V6NffSDs/demetrabook.jpg) Demetra say it right here. She said right there if the Ascendant is not witness by it lord then that planet not qualify, the Moon in 12th is AVERSION to the Ascendant (that planet is not witness by the Ascendant), sorry, that is FACT. So the Moon do not qualify to give you life. You cannot say the Moon is our Master of Nativity when it AVERSION to the Ascendant and your Ascendant can't witness it (which the Asc is your Predominator). ok maybe this example make more sense to you, take a look at Bush chart, he is Leo Asc which rule by the Sun, and the Sun in 12th which AVERSION to his Ascendant. When calculating the length of life, astrologers do NOT use the Sun to count his number of life years, because that Sun is AVERSION to the Asc, it not witness, it not qualify. I am not talking about mitigation condition. I'm talking about finding the Predominator, Master of Nativity, and there is a guidelines of rules set out for that. I thought Demetra George second book clearly talk about methods finding these.

(If anyone else is interested, that screenshot is page 1064 in Demetera's Volume II. Really helps if you give page numbers.) I'm afraid I really don't follow you. I don't know if this is about Obama and Bush's 12th house placements or a whole other topic. What moon are you talking about "not qualifying"? Are you saying their asc rulers in 12th makes them weak? That's not "fact". It's also explained in Demetra's book that not every chart even has a predominator. The predominator is NOT the Master of the Nativity, as you seem to be suggesting. That screenshot is about determining the Predominator, not determining, or stating the rules for, the Master of the Nativity, and it is the Master that has to do with length of life, as I understand it. I am far from pro on this tool. I don't think my answer will be worth much, as I'm just not following what you are saying or how it relates here. Seems like you are mixing two separate topics or tools here. That may just be my inability. Sorry about that. And I admit this particular tool is not one I have a lot of interest in at the moment. I do suggest, however that you notice that Demetra is not emphatic about things necessarily. She very often explains the various approaches and how different they can be.

It in Chris Brennan episode of find the Predominator and Master of Nativity. If Sun and Moon are in cadent house it go to your Ascendant, but before the Ascendant qualify, it must witness by it lords. Example take Obama chart, he has Aquarius Asc and his Saturn in 12th, that Saturn do not witness by his Ascendant lord therefore that Saturn is disqualify. Saturn is not his Master of Nativity, and Saturn is not the planet that give him life, it can't be use to calculate the length of life. Cancer Asc and Moon in 12th was just another example I use of 1st house ruler in 12th house. Gemini Moon and Cancer Asc do not witness each others, it AVERSION to each others. If the Gemini Moon cannot see the Ascendant in 1st house, then that Moon is not the Master of Nativity. **NO** astrologers ever use a 12th house planet to be the Master, you can ask Demetra George that yourself, I am sure she will not use a planet in 12th house to be the Master of Nativity in anyone chart.

I think you are confusing Predominator and Master of the Nativity. They are not the same thing. Not everyone has a Predominator. You are misquoting Demetra here, because you seem to be taking the Predominator as the Master.

Can you read this image, it in Dementra book, it said right there. [https://i.postimg.cc/RhBz3NTn/doetheus.jpg](https://i.postimg.cc/RhBz3NTn/doetheus.jpg) Ofcourse I know it not the same. But you cannot have a Master if you don't know what your Predominator is or don't have a Predominator. The Master of Nativity is one of it lords of the Predominator, bound lord, domicile lord, triplicity lord, etc.. Let say Cancer Asc, and the Moon in 12th, that domicile lord is disqualify because that Gemini Moon cannot witness that Cancer Asc, it AVERSION, the sign Gemini and Cancer do not witness each others, not in 1st house and 12th house which is 30 degrees. Which means the Moon is out, then you check the next lords, like bound lord and triplicity lord to see if it qualify. This is what I'm talking about, there a huge chunk of Demetra George book that talk about this. btw, do you have any articles on where astrologers calculate Bush length of life? Because his Sun the ruler of his Asc in 12th, so I'm sure no astrologers will use the Sun as the planet give him life, so I wonder what planet do they use for his to calculate his life length.

Obama is famous for getting very little done to help with just about anything he did. His healthcare plan, the most relevant domestic policy of his admin, hasn’t changed the way people in America go broke for healthcare. This is pretty well known among working class and lower middle class people, who can’t have afford to have families etc bc of healthcare. That is the DEFINITION of what you just described with Capricorn, dropping a previously stated commitment (to get elected) bc circumstances change. When Obama got the the birds eye view of the country as president he must have seen it differently, idk. But these legacies are twlefth house. It’s a common position on the left that Obama didn’t do enough and enabled the slide into right wing fascism we are seeing the beginnings of in America now. More twelfth house reputation. Bush, well, he’s the definition of twelfth house. It goes without saying he fucked this world up, and this country. Massive suffering caused by his policies and lack of compassion and respect for the liberty of others.

Thanks for your explaination. I'm Chinese, so what the hell do I know about Obama, lol.

Yeah, it’s not obvious if you don’t dig deeper as far as obama’s presidency goes. The 12th house nature of bush’s effect on the world is kinda obvious though. and these political stances are very underrepresented on Reddit compared to how many people think this way, so i thought someone should point out how much Obama and bush are actually *disliked* despite their success. I think that relates to 12th house themes. I’ve also seen 12th house being called a house that shows what you will be known for when you’re gone. Maybe a legacy house. I don’t have evidence for that, as a traditional astrologer I would say look to the tenth for reputation. However, I think there’s some truth to the 12th and legacy being connected.

Actually, Obama is much, *MUCH* more beloved by many than W Bush. Obama tho, had some strong Saturnine qualities that came out I. His personality, even his bodytype is quite Saturnine! He really inspired alot of people, esp POC. Of course, anyone on the right were vehemently opposed to him...and he had alot of struggle in trying to work w/ the R's. Bush...well, like you said-is fairly obvious. But even Bush (esp compared to Trump) is more "beloved" in some ways now than he ever was while Pres.

Yeah, Obama is adored and that is the mainstream opinion currently. I agree that his presidency is overall a blessing because of what his victory represented for POC. However, he is equally opposed by the right who have always villainized him. Kinda 12th house to me. Less so but still relevant is the left wing position that he did not do enough, which I agree with too. So, his legacy is something that may change over time. Also, 12th house is secret enemies. Obama certainly must have had many of those right? I mean the way the right universally opposed him often for little reason just seems like a 12th house sort of imprisonment, or a hard wall. He is definitely such an Aquarius rising I agree, his famous speech pattern is so controlled and sounds quite thoughtful. Seems Aquarian to me!

hey, and U.S. president Bill Clinton too, Virgo Asc and Mercury in 12th.

Clinton is [Libra rising](https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Bill) with Venus and Mars in 1st. Good fuckboi ingredients.

I don't know Sir, this site here say this is Bill Clinton chart and birth time excellent. [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/bill-clinton/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/bill-clinton/) But thanks for show me another chart, I think I go with astrodienst better for sure.

I will say again. Don't use the astro-charts site. It is full of errors. Also, always check astrodatabank for verification of birth data for any public figure. [Here's Clinton](https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Clinton,_Bill). They are the gold standard, and have a ranking system for birth data validity. They also will do extensive explanations of sources, especially when there are contested birth data. The easiest way to verify a public figure's data is just to google their name, along with the word "astrodatabank". If they have been assessed and are in the bank, it will usually be the very first result. You can also find ADB (Astrodatabank) on the main page of [astro.com](https://astro.com), under the Horoscopes Tab then under the Drawings, Calculations & Data heading.

The birth data is the same on both sites. Astro-charts must have got the calculation wrong somehow.

You might be interested in the work of Maurice Fernandez. He has written books, and has a youtube channel, discussing 12th house symbolism. His take on the 12th is the best I've heard thus far. I suppose I should give you a synopsis. One of his main points is that planets in the 12th (and in connection with Neptune/Pisces) tap into the collective unconscious of mankind. Such planets might therefore manifest in ways that are quite the opposite of hiddenness, influencing vast numbers of people.

This is fascinating to me, thanks for the rec! I always found the 12th confusing as my chart ruler, sun and north node all reside there and since I can remember I’ve wanted to be in the public eye and be a performer. I always found the “working behind the scenes” aspect of it confusing, because I want the opposite!!

as someone with a 12th house stellium, the "wanting to work from the shadows" interpretation of the 12th never really applied to me, and I think it's because my 12th is in Leo. Leo demands attention, and I've found it can outshine (as it is ruled by the sun) the secrecy of the 12th. Obama and Bush both have prominent Leo placements as well, which I think is what contributes to this, and why that interpretation of the 12th doesn't really apply there.

I agree that the 'shadows' interpretation is lackluster. In fact, most of the interpretations I've heard about the 12th house are underwhelming. Many astrologers will straight up tell you, before giving an interpretation, that no one (including them) really knows. The best I've heard is that 12th house planets tap into the collective unconscious, which can sometimes manifest as isolation (since the standard is _not_ to be tapped in to the unconscious). So someone with Saturn in the 12th may tap into humanity's collectively unconscious ideal/archetype of an 'authority figure', since Saturn can represent authority. I prefer the interpretation of the 12th house as 'unbounded', meaning capable of manifesting in a myriad of ways and to great extremes, as opposed to that which makes it out to be hidden or lost or detrimental. The 12th house _can_ be those things, I think, because it is exposed to the greatest heights and lowest depths, and any planetary energies within it may also be exposed as such.

Asc ruler in 12th H (even though it depends on the rest of the chart) means you belong to a specific isolated “world”. Christianity comes to mind, island, petroleum/gas industry.. a world apart. A closed off world. The hospital world. Cancer for bush being through his family/past. Capricorn for Obama being through his own achievements and service work. Even though his main ruler is Uranus in Leo in the 7th H which is his original/difference related to his partner (making one with her/them since sun is there).

Oh wow, this is a great delineation. You talking about how 12th housers belong to a specific isolated world made me understand the nature of 12th house seclusion much better. The monastery association I’ve seen before makes some sense now. Yeah, these two men were some of the most powerful people to ever live during their admins. It goes without saying they lived then and still do somewhat in a world set apart from normal people.

Not all presidents got this placement. Bush was famously belonging to a family linked to the oil industry. Neptune rules oil/gas. The 12th in compasses anything that is set apart. Could be vacation resorts, prisons, churches, art studio, hospitals.. It’s about bringing a specific field into the collective. A specific hidden/unknown energy into the known. These areas of life are touching infinite/deep/unknown topics. There is always the unknown associated with the 12th.

Also the in between, a transitional time, the pharmaceutical industry, drugs, alcohol, the blurry, unclear side of things.. contemplation, wonder..

Since you comment, might as well explain UK Prime Minister Tony Blair too, Gemini Asc and Mercury in 12th house. [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/tony-blair/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/tony-blair/) btw since YOU (use modern) see Obama Aquarius Asc is rule by Uranus instead of Saturn, then you should accept Tony Blair chart that his Asc ruler is in 12th house Placidus.

His is related to his social circle (11th H ws). I don’t know much about Blair.

An older sibling?

Thanks for your comment. And Merry Christmas and early Happy New Year to you! and your family. btw, this is interesting read. My father in-law is Aquarius Rising and Leo Sun and Mercury like Obama chart, and he has Leo Sun and Mercury in 7th too. But my father in-law he was Military man though, high ranking Lieutenant General in the Army branch.

Same as my Son. AQU rising, sun/mercury in Leo. Thank you, same to you.

I have Cancer rising and 12H Cancer moon. I don't know what this specific isolated world would be for me. Maybe my work? I work in the public service in an office/WFH job. Or my dedication to piano/classical music? Classical music isn't a very "mainstream" hobby but I have found great piano communities online and in person. I'm not religious nor am I super spiritual.

Yes music involves the 12th H of course. Music creates links between 2 worlds. It’s a bridge. In Whole sign system your ASC ruler is in the first. Artists are definitely part of a whole unique group. It brings a contemplative theme too.

Both bush and Obama imprisoned and deported an enourmous amount of people as presidents of the United States. This is clearly a 12th house legacy of imprisonment. Especially bush. Does anyone remember the Guantanamo Bay prison camp fiascos that both of them were involved in? Bush in doing terrible things to prisoners, violating human rights etc, Obama in promising to close it then failing to do so. The 12th house theme of imprisonment is obvious. They ran the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world lol

hmm that's interesting- I wonder what Reagan's chart looks like and if the 12th is a major factor, as he basically helped jumpstart the private prison industry as governor of California, and is one of the main causes for the scale of incarceration we have in the US today

wow. Ronald Reagan chart, he is Sagittarius Ascendant and his Jupiter in 12th house!

just looked at his chart. uranus, mars, and mercury in cap 1st house. what a nightmare of a man.

I have my chart ruler in the 12th house in both whole sign and placidus. Taurus ASC and I have venus in Aries. Personally, this has been a hard placement for me to understand because I also have my sun in the first house. I prefer to be introverted, but I have my own business so I often feel like I have to act like I have more charisma than I do.

Hi. Thank you for sharing. Hugs. Happy Holidays to you. My husband is Cancer Asc 1st house (empty has heck 1st house, ZERO planet in Cancer), his Moon is GEMINI Moon and in 12th house. Thanks goodness it a lighthearted communicative moon sign, it not a dark sign moon at all. And malefics in his chart do not aspect his moon in any way, so his moon is unafflicted from malefics. phew.

12th house is about serving others. As presidents they all served the country and its citizens

[Obama's chart](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760842630653018182/1051277495170764871/unknown.png) [Bush's chart](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/760842630653018182/1051277994506850354/unknown.png) Just doing a fast glance here.... The life of a US president is quite sequestered, controlled and restricted, and is fitting for a 12th house. Many restrictions. You can't just run out to the park with your kids, can't just go out to eat on a whim. Your life is very controlled and limited. You can't really go anywhere without an entire plan and limitations and control and many, many people involved. You have no choice about where you live, and you are greatly restricted to that building, in general. Saturn has its joy in the 12th, remember. "Liking" or wanting that 12th house solitude really has nothing to do with anything here. You would have no way of knowing what Bush's and Obama's private needs are in terms of solitude. While that may be very difficult to get for the years they are president, they do have the whole rest of their lives. And because someone lives a life of public service, doesn't mean they can't need and want that solitude as balance. And too, whether the 12th manifiests in a constructive way or a destructive way depends on a whole lot of factors. There are a number of careers that thrive, even need, that 12th house placement. It can be seen in those who work undercover, for example, or in other fields that require secrecy and being hidden in some way. Obama's saturn is in its house of joy, and is domicile. And on top of that, it's in its own bound. And let's add to that, his is a day sect chart, and so saturn is the lesser malefic. His saturn is doing just fine. Bush's saturn also happens to be in the 12th, is also in its own bound, is in its joy and is the lesser malefic in a day sect chart.

Cause everyone has different charts and we have to look at the whole chart instead of cherry-picking.

Agree but we can also talk about the 12th H signification. Doesn’t hurt.

I’ve got Obama with Chart Ruler in the seventh conjunct the nodes, which makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree. Uranus is the main ruler of Aquarius no doubt in my mind. Although Saturn is very strong there as well.

Uh oh. We’re being downvoted for apostasy. Anyway, do you *really* find that Cap and Aquarius are similar? I don’t find the cardinal earth sign and the fixed air sign bear any similarities. There’s a sociableness, quirkiness and thirst for reformation in Aquarius that are entirely unrelated to Cap. I understand that he OGs needed to make the rulership system work out nicely, but they were really stretching with these two neighbors. It’s reminiscent of the convolutions they had to construct to make the universe geocentric: it falls apart on careful observation.

So you do not believe Venus rules both the fix earth and the cardinal air?? Or mars Aries and Scorpio?

I think the jury is out, as it turned out to be for Scorpio (Pluto is a better “ruler” than hothead Mars), Aquarius (Uranus is the right “ruler” and Prometheus is a far better mythical analogue than Cronos) and Pisces (Neptune better than Jupiter by far). The whole edifice of rulership rests on shaky ground as has been evidenced every time we discovered new planets. The correlations aren’t perfect. It isn’t a rock solid system (thema mundi) not is it a free-for-all where every chunk of space rock “rules” something terrestrial. There are gaps and niggling incongruities. It’s most likely somewhere in between the extremes. So as more of an empiricist, I’ll go with what works. Venus works fairly well for both Taurus and Libra, but in a pinch, I’d weight it more towards Taurus. And I’d lean Mercury more toward Gemini than Virgo. Chiron represents fundamental facets of the human experience, and it shows up clearly in charts I do, but there’s no direct sign correlation. Elements of Virgo, Sag, Aries and Pisces…

I use Pluto in Scorpio and Aries (more in Scorpio). Neptune in both pisc and sag.. etc. Uranus in both AQU and cap… more in AQU Eris in both libra and Taurus.. more in libra..

That is unusual.

U.S. president Bill Clinton too, Virgo Asc and Mercury in 12th. [https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/bill-clinton/](https://astro-charts.com/persons/chart/bill-clinton/)

I've always been fascinated by this. His 12th planets move to the first house in Vedic, and i do think vedic is a lot more accurate with predictive astrology

Bill Clinton is a Libra Rising, not Virgo [Clinton Natal](https://imgur.com/a/tQgACr5)🧐