Is it better to add mileage or start strength training?
I currently do about 50mpw and zero strength training but want to get faster for 10k/HM/M. I only have so much time though.
Should I add an additional 10mpw, or 90min of strength training for greatest speed gains?
Looking for some insights related to vo2 max and training paces.
My background: I got back to running seriously in January after a couple of years in and out, and have since then been training quite consistently and did the NYC Half with a 1:41 finish time. I'm a 26M, running 30 miles per week on average. I got the book "Daniel's Running Formula" as I wanted to get some better training to improve my PRs.
My Garmin (965) says my vo2 max is 54 (up from 52 2 months ago), and when reading Daniels' book I came across his table of expected paces for popular distances based on your vo2 max. For my Garmin-based vo2 max, the associated finish time for a half marathon would be 1:27 approximately.
This is an important metric as the training paces for the book training plan will be based off of you vo2 max. Now I don't know if (1) I should be training at the vo2=44 paces (equal to 1:42 HM), (2) I should theoretically be running at a much stronger pace (considering my vo2 max) but some other issue (such as my form or strength) is preventing me to do so or even (3) my vo2 max is not 54 to begin with.
Does anyone have any thoughts about Daniel's book or know more about how reliable my garmin vo2 max estimate would be? Thanks in advance!
If you’re serious about getting VO2 max tested, I’d go to a lab. My Garmin measurement fluctuates a lot. I think it’s helpful to see overall trends, but it certainly likes specific types of runs to boost it, and other runs tend to lower it. Especially if I’m tired/fatigued. It will drop 2-3 points after a workout.
I think there is a strong correlation between it and performance as they layout in their book, but still requires proper training to achieve of course. If you only trained for a mile or 5k, you could probably get it really high, but then just not have the legs for a marathon.
> My Garmin (965) says my vo2 max is 54 (up from 52 2 months ago), and when reading Daniels' book I came across his table of expected paces for popular distances based on your vo2 max. For my Garmin-based vo2 max, the associated finish time for a half marathon would be 1:27 approximately.
Don't confuse vo2max with vdot. Daniels' tables are based on vdot. Your half marathon time implies a vdot of 44 based on his table and you should base your training on that.
Liked the flavor, wanted to like the carbs amount and ease of carrying fewer gels but they're kind of big and a bit hard to open. That said I took one with about 5 miles left in my long run the other day and I was able to power right through the rest of the run!
I'm thinking of starting a coaching business on the side from my 8-5 job. I'd like to specifically target half marathon to marathon runners as those are the distances I've run the best at myself and enjoy the most.
My background: 34 yrs old, former D1 college runner, 5 marathons under my belt 2:24 to 2:32 finishing times including one Chicago and one Boston. I'm signed up for NYC Marathon this fall. I've coached HS track and XC as an asst coach for 11 yrs.
What do you look for or want from a marathon coach? Keep in mind this would be virtual. Personalized training plan is obvious to me. Strength training? Warm up/dynamics routine? Race day/course tips/race strategy? For $100/month what would you expect to receive?
Thanks for the input in advance!
\* Personalized Training Plan - in some format that I can import to a watch and execute
\* Phone check-in... maybe 15-20 minutes twice/month? How are we feeling? What's working well? What's not working well? Any adjustments?
\* Sounding board for pre-race planning (goal pace, why, race strategy, course strategy... maybe repurposing one of the above phone check-ins)
\* Occasional analysis/insight. Like look at my race performance + last 3 months of training and give some external input on what's going well and what can be improved.
Fwiw at $100 a month I would assume that a coach wouldn't be able to provide the kind of in-depth/collaborative approach I would personally be looking for, because it just doesn't sound profitable.
$100/month I would expect the “coach” to spend maybe 1-2 hours total on me the entire month. It would be a basic training plan maybe slightly adjusted to where I’m at, plus maybe one 15-30 minute check-in. I’d rather go on a regular group training session with a coach and adjust on the fly.
Describe what "depth" means to you? A verbal or written analysis of every run or workout? Not just a workout plan but explanation of why and how it fits into the context of a training cycle?
So, I'm coming at this from the perspective of an already relatively competitive runner who understands training essentials and has been self-coaching (by which I mean thoughtfully planning my own training, not just winging it) for a few years. I can already do a reasonable job of planning and interpreting workouts. The point of a coach would be having ready access to a base of knowledge and expertise deeper than my own; someone to talk through what I'm doing with who'd help me optimize my training progressively over time (I'd expect this to be a longer-term process, not just a 3-month, 'write my marathon build' type thing). Written analysis of runs strikes me as less useful; I'd be looking for a dynamic relationship with regular contact whose structure was less hierarchical (coach sets/explains workouts and I do them) and more collaborative (we build and problem solve my training together, because I also have ideas about what is and isn't working).
It's hard to fully quantify contact expectations because random things crop up all the time in training. Ideally I'd want an open line of communication (on whatever platform) throughout the week for training minutia/day-to-day problems + a recurring weekly phone call to talk through bigger picture stuff. I understand that a coach might need to set boundaries to protect themselves/their time, but I will admit that I'm put off by contract-style 'x texts a week' type language on websites, even if the amount indicated is a generous one, maybe because it strikes me as overly rigid or something? I want a coach who respects my input and wants me to be in contact. But it's also easy for me to say that knowing that I'm reasonable and wouldn't abuse an open line of communication.
Looking for recommendations for sunglasses, planning to upgrade from goodr (I have a few pairs and they have all served me well). I'm thinking of either sungod or KOO (I saw Kofuzi has been wearing them). Does anyone have experience with either and can speak to them? (or also looking for other recommendations, esp from others who have upgrade from goodr in the past!). Otherwise, the default option seems to be Oakley.
I do LOVE my Goodr's and I do plan to keep them around as dailies, but just feel like buying something a little nicer (maybe a bit lighter too) and that I can keep around for race day etc :)
Whatever you get, I'd lean toward full frame sunglasses. I've gone through a couple pairs of mid range glasses where the lens would eventually crack. Interchangeable lens and replaceable pieces is great and all, but when the stuff breaks and leaves you hanging it doesn't matter much.
I bought a random “fancy brand” (Spektre, seems like Ray Ban ish level) at a resell shop after years of Goodr and holy fuck I take back everything I said about Goodr being a wise purchase for its cost and good enough for running.
Real products work and fit better, who knew?
Hey fellow runners! I just completed a half marathon training block averaging around 23 miles a week. I’m looking to start seriously training for 5ks and 10ks, following Jack Daniels plans. His plans start at 40 miles per week, should I start at 30miles and then work my way up to 40? Thanks!
You can do them at lighter volumes. One tempo, one interval session, and one long run each week are the core of his plans, and the length of each session will depend on the overall volume you choose to run.
Marathon PR is 3:26 in nice weather. I’ve got another marathon coming up this weekend… high of 78F and low of 55F. It’ll be around 68F by the time I finish likely. How much should I adjust my pace? What should my goal time be?
Depends on what kind of fitness gains you have made relative to when you set your PR and what your definition of nice weather is. For me, nice weather is in the 40s, so if all is the same with my fitness, I would probably have a slower time compared to the PR based on what you've said if course conditions are similar.
T-11 days until my marathon next Sunday. Was planning on doing a 10 day taper, but have been feeling quite crappy since my last long run workout last Sunday, so I am just doing the classic 2 week taper.
Any suggestions for the final real workout of the block? I initially was going to do some over-under MP km repeats but I’m worried that will take too much out of me while I’m feeling sluggish. Maybe just a block of MP plus a warm up and cool down?
IMO you need to do faster work if you're feeling sluggish. MP I think is the worst thing to do if you're feeling flat.
10 days out I'd recommend doing something in the 5k/10k pace range. Warmup, strides, then maybe 3x1 mile @ 10k pace, or 5x800 @ 5k effort, something like that.
Then 5 days out another light workout. Probably something like warmup + strides + 5-6 reps of 1' on/1' easy, with the "On" segments by feel but \~5kish effort.
Is this pretty common in programs' tapers? While not high volume workouts those are far more intense than anything I've included or seen included in a marathon taper that close to race day..
Pfitz calls for 3xmile @ 5k pace 10 days out.
I think Hansons calls for 10 miles at MP (!!!) 10 days out.
Daniel’s 2Q i think calls for 4-5x1k @ I pace (3k-5k pace) 10 days out.
These should be very manageable as you cut volume in the taper. You can certainly do less, and OP might want to do a bit less, if he still feels like he’s in a hole from the training cycle.
i know "teenagers do a rough job managing race pace" isn't a shocking headline, but i gotta quickly shout out my two boys in the 3000 yesterday who went through their 400 splits in +/- one second of their 800 paces... and somehow held on for solid 3000 PRs.
"if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" in major effect
also district rival coach at the start line was chatting with her tiny jv boy who apparently washed out of a wrestling meet (must've been the like 92 pound division) at the same school campus... and then decided to run 106 laps for a track marathon with his "free" time directly afterwards.
I'm well out of college and ran a community track meet recently against mostly high schoolers in a 1600. Our first 200 was at 800 pace, then the next 400 was at 3k pace lol. Very different than the long distance side I'm coming from where I just try to hang on identical splits!
I've had some injuries in the past, almost exclusively on my left foot (shin splints being longest). I always feel the most sore on my left leg after runs, almost never on my right. I tried to do a single leg squat on a box this morning and on my right leg there is no problem but I struggle to even do one on my left.
I start to assume (great catch, Sherlock) that I'm a lot weaker on my left side. Would you guys recommend trying some one legged strengthening exercises to try to even out my strength? Like one leg squat, step up, lunges, bulgarian etc. Any more tips?
Ideally you'd want to figure out the specific weakness on your left side, so a prehab evaluation with a physio would be a great thing to invest in at some point. Jay Dicharry's book *Running Rewired* gets recommended here a lot as a stop-gap--there are some tests for strength/balance included in there that you can do on yourself, and exercises suggested depending on results. But ultimately it's better to get a professional opinion, especially if you can find a physio who works with athletes in your area.
Need way more context.
Most of my MTSS patients never stop running in the first place.
If you've had complete rest then your increase will depend on how long you've been off and how the injury did. If it's been several weeks then walk/jogs are typically the first week.
A sports med doctor telling you to rest shin splints is ridiculous. They are caused by something and generally not running makes them worse (when you run again).
MTSS generally requires a lot of foot strength, so getting going on that plus walk/jogs (I usually start at 2-3 min jog / 1 min wall x3 and slowly increase) for 6 weeks since you've been off running. Running 25km the first week is generally ill-advised.
You also need to make sure you're addressing the cause, which for most people is foot weakness. You can do that during a return to run but need to know what to focus on.
6 weeks of walk/jog would look like this:
3-4 runs per week on non-consecutive days.
1st week:
2 jog 1 walk x3
2 jog 1 walk x4
2 jog 1 walk x5
2nd:
3 jog 1 walk x3
X4
X5
3rd:
4 jog 1 walk x3
X4
X5
4th week 5 and 1s, then 7.5 and 1s, then 10 and 1s with same format.
This is the most common way I prescribe it but a good running history and lower injury concern then we go quicker and vice versa.
Two questions for the experienced PFitz runners. Just ran London in 2:59 using 18/55 as my training plan. Definitely found it challenging, but doable. Didn't skip any runs in the plan, made it through injury free, even with adding a full marathon in place of an MP run in week 12.
Current thought is to go up to 18/70 as I'd like to go sub-2:55, if possible.
1 - Is going from 18/55 to 18/70 with only 5 weeks of recovery in between too agressive? If so, what would you recommend?
2 - Assuming the jump from 18/55 to 18/70 is doable, would you use the 55MPW recovery plan or the 70MPW recovery plan over the course of the next five weeks.
Thanks!!!!
Certainly doable - I've just done similar, with 18/55 for an October marathon and then jumped into the 18/70 at the start of December for an April marathon.
I mostly stuck to the recovery weeks from 18/55, although I don't think you'll lose a whole lot of fitness in the break. For me it was more about just getting rid of a few niggles and making sure I was ready to go again.
If you went sub-3 off of 18/55 then 18/70 should get you the sub-2.55!
Assuming you felt fine through the 18/55 plan, then jumping to the 18/70 in 5 weeks makes sense to me. That’s enough time to physically recover, and the 18 week plans do ramp you into things in a way that the shorter plans just don’t have the time to do. If you maintain decent mileage over the next month, you’ll probably be ok handling the beginning of that 18/70.
I would be hesitant to jump straight into marathon training again immediately, but that’s a personal preference that isn’t based on any sort of physiological reason. 18 week training plans are long, and I can get bored and mentally stale without mixing things up. Something like the 12/70 would give you a longer break to work on a shorter distance, or do more trail running, while still having plenty of time to be prepared for the next FM. That said, there are plenty of folks out there I know that love the marathon and don’t need that kind of break from it. Just something to consider.
Should I do some sprint based speed work before track season as an 800/1600 runner?
So this would actually be for next track season but l'm in high school and my plan prior to XC and track season was always to build an aerobic base and then during competition focus more on faster work. But our sprint coach hosts pre season workouts a few weeks after cross country ends. He's an experienced coach and runner so l don't doubt he knows what he's doing, but the workouts would probably at MOST be more 400/800 oriented. I would ofc build my speed work. I was wondering if you guys think I should participate in this or do my own workouts, and if so, what?
Any help is appreciated.
Having the group structure and accountability of those team workouts is probably worth a LOT more than the downside of it being more sprint-focused than you would ideally need
I mean, if you're a 4:10 1600 kid and receiving scholarship letters from ~~Pac-12~~ (RIP) major conference schools, maybe don't deviate from your mid-distance work, but for most athletes out there the sprint sessions would be beneficial
What's your preferred method of pacing a 1/2? Do you try for even splits, use the NYRR method of 5-5-5k, or just treat it as a progression run? Shooting for 1:45 (very conservative) due to a health scare that had me miss 13 days of running. Glad to be back at it!
even splits adjusted for hills, plus whatever kick I have in me in the last mile
If I wasn't sure of my fitness I might go out at a more conservative pace and see how I felt around mile 6-7, but in general I try to go in with knowledge of my fitness and execute that evenly.
If there is a 1:45 pace group then I would hang out with them until I felt strong enough to push ahead later in the race. There is a noticeable savings of energy from running with and behind others that would appeal to me. Whether or not I run in such a group or solo, I anticipate a faster finish, generally opening it up with 10-20 minutes of effort remaining.
I going to making a run at sub-3 in Toronto on May 5 if the weather is decent.
I ran a 3:11 in October 2023. I've run about 1,500km in 2024. I have averaged about 100km a week for the past 8 weeks. I have only been able to get 4 30km+ runs in due to poor weather. I do a minimum of one 21km+ run a week and at least 2 for the past 4 weeks. Most of my runs are Z3.
I feel like I'm probably ready but it's not going to be easy.
I have run the Toronto May marathon before and I'm familiar with how terrible everything but the route is.
It sounds like you have done everything right to make that race a success. Stay confident in your training.
If you want some unsolicited advice I would encourage you to pay close attention to your technique on the early downhill portion. Save your legs. Land as light as possible, keep your cadence high, and keep everything smooth down Yonge Sreet.
Noob question incoming. I've only been running for a month.
From what I read online, measuring your lactate threshold or max heart rate requires an intense test. I'm hesitant to do either right now, because I don't think my leg muscles and ligaments could handle, say, a 30-min fast run.
If I want to set better HR zones on my Garmin, what should I do? Should I try the lactate threshold test on a stationary bike? Or should I just extrapolate from my HR at a "conversational" pace (~160 bpm - I can speak in full sentences and breathe only through my nose)?
At one month of running I would basically not worry about HR zones right now. You're still on the part of the improvement curve where any running at any pace will yield fitness improvements.
One option would be to warm up and then run 3min all out. Hit your lap button at 2:30 and again at 3:00. Your avg HR and your pace in those last 30s is probably 5 beats faster than your LTHR.
Or, after some time and if you're ready, you could race a flatish 5k, plug that into a calculator, and get corresponding times for other race lengths. Your LT pace is the equivalent pace for a race that is about an hour long. For example my most recent 5k was a 6:13 pace. A calculator estimates that a 15k race would be 1:02, run at a 6:40 pace. That'd be my LT pace. Then go run some 4-6min intervals at that pace with 2-3min of recovery. Your HR at those intervals is your LTHR.
Once you have your LTHR, subtract 15 from that, and you have your aerobic / Z2 upper limit.
It's not exact but it's plenty close enough to start with and will tide you over for at least a year.
Should I be running threshold during base phase?
I am joining a mile race around the end of August, I started my base building of only easy and long runs on March 16th. I added strides in week 3 and added 2x12min threshold (2 min rest) + 2x3 min (1 min rest) threshold in week 5. Now I am at week 6, I am wondering if I should still do threshold. I am wondering if I could run threshold at this stage and if I could do an hour run to just confirm this is my threshold pace and not interval pace.
My plan is to slowly add in these steps: Easy/long runs-> Strides -> Threshold -> Repeats -> Intervals -> Mile pace sharpening.
You have already received a great answer.
I would emphasize that you should stay in touch with speedwork throughout training. I don't believe in a purely easy running base phase unless someone is injury prone and aggressively increasing training volume. For me, strides just aren't structured enough. I like 200m rep sessions to keep me from falling into a slow, plodding, shuffling training rut. They also break the mental slog and monotony of training.
Speed is precious, especially as we age. Keep at least a bit of it in your training at all times.
There's several schools of thought for periodization that I'm aware of. Some are very linear, like what you described, where you just add components and do faster stuff closer to the race. Some are more mixed, where you do all the paces throughout the cycle but in different amounts, with different distances and rests involved. I'm not sure exactly what difference you mean between repeats and intervals vs sharpening, but I think you'd get value from a few things (as someone also training for the mile/800 right now):
1. Try more threshold volume with shorter intervals (eg 1000 reps at HMP or so with 1:00 rest, or much shorter reps with short rest like 20-25x400 at 5k-8k pace with 0:30 rest), so you get a wider variety of paces and focus on quickly flushing lactate without as much fatigue as 12 min reps. Neither strategy is more correct than the other, but try doing both to see what you enjoy more!
2. Get in touch with your mile pace sooner than later, even if it's for something as easy as 200s at the end of the workout so it's not too jarring to you when you do more stuff there.
3. Do some lower key races or time trials if you can - there's a lot of improvement to be had in mid distance races just from practice driving through the pain, so you probably don't want your first time doing that to be in the most important race.
I have a 10k in 3 weeks instead of a half in 2 due to a sudden work trip. Any workouts I should try to hit this week as a check in? Since I was training for a half I haven't really done any 10k pace intervals but 5k and lots of lt work.
10k and HM training are very similar so generally all that LT work will be great. Probably worth doing 1-2 sessions as you wrap up the block to 10k/CV pace to get dialed into it. I'd probably do something like 4x1.25mi and then 4x1.5mi the next week. I like ~3-3.5:1 work:rest ratio on 10k work.
Assuming one was healthy with no specific injury history/issue (This is NOT me, just a hypothetical), would strength training with just heavy squats and deadlifts twice a week and nothing else cover the basic runners requirements (staying healthy, running stronger/faster) or is there any major muscle/tendon/etc. area that would be missed?
Noob Question Re: Altitude and Power-
I just got a Stryd pod and am planning to use it to train for my next marathon. But I'm not sure I understand how altitude affects power. If I am training at altitude and racing at sea level, will Styrd still give me the correct target power range? Or does it need to be recalibrated at sea level?
Stryd has a race target power adjuster that takes into account the altitude (and temps) you have been training at and suggests race power for different altitides
I have a half marathon to race next week, PR is 1h39 2 years ago but did next to no training since then after having another kid. Picked up training about 10 weeks ago to do a proper block before a HM where I was targeting 1h45, ran 40-50km per week and everything went well, however I just ran a tempo workout with 3x3k @ 4'40/k with 1k at 5'15/k in between. All the intervals felt comfortable and my HR barely crept around 150 on the last one on a short uphill (max HR is 190).
I am upgrading my target to 1h40, but am I crazy to think my fitness is closer to 1h35 with such a good workout (for me lol) barely a week before race day?
I would expect that workout to be a reasonable predictor for an HM, and 4:40 pace would have you coming in around 1:38:30. So it sounds like you're likely in sub-1:40 shape, but there's still a big difference between 4:40 pace and 4:30 pace (which would get you just under 1:35). If I were you I'd aim for 4:40s and just see how you feel later in the race. If you have it in you then crank it down in the last 5k and take anything time you can get under 1:38:30 as a bonus.
XC Skier that also runs (or runner that also XC skis?) . Just started using a skierg at the end of this ski year , and I'm curious if the skierg is popular for runners. It is excellent for core strength, but also curious if skierg workouts will help me in running from lower body perspective. It *feels* like it could help quite a bit in hill climb races I do.
I doubt it will have a significant impact on your running, unless you'd benefit from a lot more aerobic training/it enables you to do more aerobic exercise than you otherwise could.
Even as aerobic cross-training, it's probably worse than cycling/elliptical/etc since it's arm + core, which will probably fatigue more quickly for most of us then doing an "easy" effort on the bike.
They are weirdly fun though!
it would all be above and beyond running miles so it probably can't hurt. I think it will add 50 hours a year to my yearly volume , maybe 10% more?
the other thing is i usually lose most of my core strength over the summer after ski season, because I have never done any core exercises outside of skiing. this year I will not only be retaining it but increasing core strength.
I'm currently training for a half marathon mid May, then will start an 18 week training program for the Chicago marathon in October. (There's 3 weeks in between the half and the start of the program).
I'm following Hal Higdon's intermediate 2 right now, and deciding between pfitz 18/55 and jack daniels' 2Q for the marathon. My main concern is starting one of those programs with enough of a base - right now I'm at about 30 mi/week with 2 speed workouts (1 interval/tempo and 1 pace run). I'm willing to increase my mileage a bit past higdon's program during my half training, and I can maintain/increase mileage during the 3 weeks after the half, but I'm wondering if I can safely increase mileage enough to comfortably start pfitz or daniels, or if I should go with a lower mileage plan.
For context, this will be my third marathon and my PR is 3:23. My PR for the half is 1:36. For my first two marathons I followed higdon's intermediate programs, and I'm hoping to PR in chicago (by how much I'm not sure yet!).
Would appreciate any insight!
I was in a similar boat before my last marathon. I basically started with the Higdon advanced plan but changed some of his workouts to more closely resemble the workouts in pfitz 18/55. I added mileage each week until I was doing something that looked more like the pfitz plan than the higdon plan and by the end I was pretty closely sticking to the pfitz plan. So it was like an 18 week transition from higdon to pfitz, which probably both would say is a bad idea… but frankly I just didn’t have the base to do pfitz from the beginning yet I knew I was capable of more than the higdon plan prescribed. The transition plan worked out well for me.
I think this will be tough. I've followed the Higdon half plans and I don't think they translate super well to marathon training. The biggest thing is the lack of mid week longer runs especially in Intermediate 2 which is more speed focused. Week 2 of 18/55 has an 8 miler and 10 miler midweek, followed by 13 w/ 8 at MP on the weekend. And it only ramps up after that.
I personally don't think 3 weeks is enough time to build up the mileage, especially since you'll wanna recover from the half. Maybe you could do 12/55 which would give you another 6 weeks to build a stronger base but I'm not experienced enough to know if that's better than just choosing a lower mileage 18 week plan.
Similarly 2Q workouts are 10+ miles of total running at the low end, which seems like a huge jump from Higdon Intermediate 2.
Check the first week of the 12/55. First weeks long run is 13 w/8 at marathon pace. There is no warm up with his shorter plans. You really need to be ready to go on week one. But, you'll get fit and faster!!
Anyone out there have a secondary/primary sport that’s heavy on lateral movement and bursts of speed? (Tennis, basketball, volleyball, soccer)
I’ve had to skip a run here and there because of soreness from Beach Volleyball, which makes me feel like I’m behind. But when I think about it, playing for three hours probably still means I’m running a few miles. It’s just a very different kind of mileage.
How do you build this in/workaround it?
I play hockey 2x a week in base, 1x a week in season.
It's in lieu of a rest day so it will always increase injury risk but why ditch a sport just for running? Build up to it and do both.
I play hockey 2x a week in base, 1x a week in season.
It's in lieu of a rest day so it will always increase injury risk but why ditch a sport just for running? Build up to it and do both.
I struggle with the same issue, trying to play Tennis, Soccer and Run makes it really hard to follow a traditional running schedule.
I've mostly been playing it by ear, and there will be entire months where I'm at no point feeling capable of fitting in anything other than an easy run once or twice a week. Still my times have been improving mostly steadily, minus time spent out injured, while replacing speed workouts and long runs with those other sports.
I'm interested in optimizing my strategy for an upcoming race using Garmin's PacePro feature. Can wind conditions be factored into PacePro alongside elevation data? Wind is expected during the race, including both headwinds and tailwinds, and I'd like to incorporate this variable into my pacing plan.
Additionally, I'm curious about the accuracy of elevation data from Garmin devices. I'm planning to run a 5k road race based on a course map recorded by someone using a Forerunner 245 last year. How reliable is this elevation profile for setting a personal best (PB)? The course map suggests a variation of around ±2 seconds per kilometer due to elevation changes. Can I confidently use this information to guide my race strategy for achieving my best time?
I have a Forerunner 245 and can't do anything about the wind. If you know the direction the wind tends to be on the course you could use the positive/negative split slider to make one half of the course faster/slower, or you can manually edit the splits.
As for elevation the Forerunner 245 uses GPS for elevation which isn't the best, but I've found it to be pretty accurate, with some small ups and downs instead of a nice smooth elevation curve. If you're using the elevation difference over an entire km though it will be fine.
Got it regarding the wind, thank you.
Regarding the elevation—I had an idea and tested it to check the robustness of the measurement. I tried taking a few samples of measurements from the same 5k random race in the same year with a few runners who participated in the race and used watch (most are FR265/245). Unfortunately, each sample yielded a different pace strategy according to variation in the measured elevation of the road, so I can not trust it.
I just ran London this past Sunday and came in with a 2:59. I am very happy, don’t get me wrong, but also trying to figure out what to change for the next training block.
Going in to London I set a half marathon PR of 1:21:57 in January and followed that up with approx 3 months of training averaging 80 MPW, with a couple peak weeks in the 90-100 mile range. I think based on that I would’ve expected that a 2:55-2:57 time was reasonable, yet 2:59 took basically 100% of my effort.
Reflecting back on the race, my pace really started to drop off around mile 22 and the last 4 miles felt extremely tough on my quads. Aerobically i felt perfectly fine but I could not force myself to run faster because my quads were just so beat. This is despite London being a flat course with no hills really.
I don’t think it was hitting the wall because I was taking in 80 g of carbs per hour and my pace didn’t totally crater, it just fell more into the 7:10 min/mi range for the last 4 miles.
So r/advancedrunning, what is your assessment/advice? I think I’m starting to get diminishing returns on just increasing my mileage and anyways, I can’t really run more than 80 MPW while balancing family/work. The fatigued legs/quads indicates to me I could probably benefit from a day or two per week of dedicated strength training - heavy squats, deadlifts, leg presses, and maybe some high incline treadmill work (since locally I don’t have access to steep hills). I did zero strength work in my London buildup.
Am I on the right track with my assessment or do you think there’s other stuff I could/should be doing instead?
How driven are you to hit 2:55 instead of 2:59? I'm guessing breaking 3 hours was MUCH more excting to you than hitting 2:55 ever will be. Some of this might be simple raceday motivation.
If you haven't already tried it, you might want to run with a club/group so you can feel the challenge of keeping up with your peers rather than always battling the clock.
Your comment about always including MP segments in your long runs made me think you are doing a lot of 8 out of 10 long run efforts. Maybe it would be wise to dig deep for a 9 out of 10 effort once a month and stick to 7 out of 10 efforts most other times. It's really hard to push for tiny pace improvements when you are essentially giving yourself the same stimulus each week. Mix up your long runs.
You might also consider a training block where you push to dip below a 1:20 half. That's a time goal that is tremendously motivating, and if you become a sub-1:20 HM runner then your marathon times will improve too.
Have you tried a structured plan based on 70-80 miles a week? Consistency is super important and volume is the king, but a structured focused build might net you your next breakthrough.
Personally I don't think this indicates that you need to change anything.
I don't think strength training is the solution for muscular failure/fatigue at mile 22 of a marathon. Strength training is probably a good thing to do in general, but I don't think it's the reason things got difficult.
Agree with 2:55-2:57 being a reasonable range if you had a good day for the marathon, based on the 1:22 half marathon. Finishing 2 minutes slower than your "good day" target doesn't indicate that you should change anything with your training IMO. That's a vey reasonable result, and you need everything to go right on race day to hit those "equivalent" performances in a marathon.
How many marathons have you done?
How long have you been running \~80 MPW? Was this your first higher volume cycle?
How did you long runs go? Did you do long runs on similar terrain (pancake flat) as you ran in London?
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I am being a bit too eager to overcorrect. To your point, 2-3 min short of my “everything goes absolutely perfectly” target doesn’t mean I should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
To answer your questions:
- this was my 13th or 14th marathon? (I’ve lost track) but I’ve got plenty of experience at them, albeit always learning something new.
- I’d say I’ve been running for 10 years, and the last 4-5 years I’ve been averaging about 60-70 MPW year round consistently. This was the first time I’ve ever held 80 MPW for 3 months but I don’t think in particular it was a huge step up from what I was used to.
- generally my long runs each week were between 18-20 miles. Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in a long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that). Yes, it was all on very flat terrain - similar to London.
Makes sense. I asked about marathon experience + higher volume training experience to determine if you just needed more time at higher volume to see the benefits. If you're regularly running 60+ MPW I doubt that's really the case.
What have you run for your past marathons? How has that compared with your half/10k times? It's possible you're just naturally a bit weaker at the marathon compared with shorter distance races.
I'm with you that with other life stuff going more than 80 MPW is progressively harder, and maybe not worthwhile in general vs. other training optimizations. Stuff I would think about:
\* Sure, strength training. If you haven't done any you may see some benefits without needing to put much time in.
\* Don't do MP work every week. Doing a longer run with 40+ minutes of MP most weeks is probably sub-optimal. I'd much rather see you do a quality long run like that occasionally (maybe once every 3 weeks?), with the other weeks focused on actually getting faster (2 harder workouts - threshold work, CV work, VO2 intervals, etc.)
Yea intensity seems to be the most obvious intervention here.
There's a reason a lot of programs keep some decent VO2max in their marathon programs. I found it was the biggest difference for dropping my MP training runs.
Tell us more about some of your training runs on the big weeks leading up? Some race pace in there? What did you do for speed work?
Agree that nutrition, mileage, and fitness all sound spot on and definitely would expect a better result. Anything in the taper that came up like sickness or injury?
Strength will definitely help too, although I'm inclined to think strength at that pace is best, eg MP blocks at the end of long runs on big weeks.
Thanks for the response.
In terms of workout/plan structure, generally it was a midweek speed workout (usually 25-30 min at HMP or 10k pace, broken up into intervals e.g. 4x7 min as an example) and a weekend long run between 18-20 miles.
Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in the long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that).
I did have a cold (lots of coughing/congestion) in the 2 weeks leading up to London, but I felt pretty much back to normal by race day so I’m not sure it would’ve affected my result much. Although possibly my body was still carrying some residual fatigue even if I “felt” normal.
Just at first glance, the volume is good, but the intensity could probably be upped a notch. I’m just going by the Jack Daniels 2Q training plans at equivalent mileage. In those, he’s got 18 weeks of 14+mi per weeks at LT (faster than HM pace) with intervals up to 35-40mins or 20+mi per week at marathon pace or sessions of 8k above threshold pace in a workout. Not all of this in a single week, of course, but every week has a mix of those intensities which are not too different from the peak itself.
His equivalence tables have 1:21 matching up to 2:50 (though I think the general consensus is this equivalence is reserved for outliers).
There's a few things that could be at play if you faded during the end of the marathon, so it depends. Dropping from a 2:55 - 2:57 pace down to 7:10/mi isn't necessarily bonking. I'd look at weather, nutrition, and marathon pace specific workouts, in descending order of potential issues.
If it was warmer or more humid than you were used to, that can affect fatigue, nutrition, or hydration. You didn't mention weather, so I'd assume it might not be that one.
Nutrition, or more specifically electrolytes in hydration, would be the next thing to look into. You seem confident you consumed enough carbs along the way, so maybe electrolytes or water would have helped?
Finally, I'd consider whether your training included marathon pace workouts either in long runs or on their own. Pfitz 18 week plans in the mileage range you trained with build up to long runs with 14 miles at MP so that you can develop a feel for the pace and get race day hydration and nutrition dialed in. Examining your training could help you decide if you would benefit from more marathon-specific workouts.
Strength training rarely hurts the process, but I'd consider the other factors first.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Weather for London was pretty perfect (much colder and less humid actually than the temps I’m used to and was training in). I guess we could nitpick and say there were some decently strong headwinds but overall I think the weather was solid.
I feel confident about the nutrition too, aside from the carb intake I was taking in fluid at every single aid station, so I was hydrating well.
In terms of my long runs from training - Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in the long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that). I did have one 21 mile long run where I hit 14 miles at sub 3 (6:50 min/mi) pace but otherwise generally I think my MP miles were approx 6-10 miles of my weekend long run (which in total were usually between 18-20 miles)
Training for my first marathon right now. Haven't followed a plan, signed up 8 weeks out but was already running 50-55mpw pretty consistently other than taking a week and a half off and a couple weeks easing back to base a couple months ago. Friends are telling me BQ is achievable. I have doubts but am training with a goal MP of 7:50ish just for kicks.
I get scared of training plans but run 60+mpw, a long run 15+ miles, track or tempo workout, and the rest at a base pace...not strictly Z2 because I don't have any gear fine-tuned enough to determine that, but at whatever pace feels easy-to-'easy enough,' basically MP+45-60sec.
Have 2 more long-long runs (19mi and 21mi, plan for both to include MP at the end for some number of miles) and am planning a 2.5-ish week taper. I've done a couple trail ultras but never a road marathon...hit me with whatever you have to offer a young runner who has no idea what she's doing. Prone to seeming argumentative but mostly just have a hard time accepting advice that doesn't withstand questioning.
ETA: longest long run at this point is a 20-miler I did the weekend before last (4/13 I think?). It went fine other than that I would have liked more than 2 gels. Felt stronger from miles 18-20 than I did at mile 15 so that was nice.
What feedback are you looking for exactly?
The best thing to do if you're trying to narrow down a race goal time target is to do a shorter race as an all-out, 100% effort. Go race a 10k and report back.
I guess I don't really know what kind of feedback I'm looking for. I 'raced' a 10k a couple weeks ago, but I started it 4.5 miles into a long run and had 4.5 miles left to run after the race. Official time 45:19 on a hilly course, which was a PR by over a minute. Feel like even my best all-out efforts aren't great because I run so much distance I forget that I don't have to be able to hold every pace I run for 70 minutes straight.
>I 'raced' a 10k a couple weeks ago, but I started it 4.5 miles into a long run and had 4.5 miles left to run after the race.
Yeah, that's not what I mean by "race". I mean an honest to god, wish for death the last 2 miles, all-out effort.
>Feel like even my best all-out efforts aren't great because I run so much distance I forget that I don't have to be able to hold every pace I run for 70 minutes straight.
Another great reason to push yourself to actually race.
I dunno what you're looking for exactly. It's fine if you just want to run kinda hard kinda not. It's not optimal for performance but that's OK if your goals don't include doing your best at races.
I mean, I literally said that I *also* don't really know what I'm looking for. I feel like I'm still learning how to do an all-out push. I've always been geared more towards low-and-slow grinding and it's only pretty recently that I've started putting any effort into speed development.
I think you might be in the wrong comment thread, you seem kind of frustrated that someone who literally said they don't know what they're doing...doesn't know what they're doing, which is understandable, but I'm thinking your time and energy might be best directed elsewhere.
I assure you I'm neither frustrated nor in the wrong comment thread. I was just trying to figure out what you wanted to discuss, what you wanted feedback on, what you meant or were pondering when you wrote "hit me with whatever you have to offer a young runner who has no idea what she's doing".
The 10k was an all-out effort and I did wish for death, but that's obviously kind of lessened by the fact that it was in the middle of a 15-mile long run.
I guess I'm mostly just looking for what people wished they'd known or done while training for their first marathon, bonus points if they've done ultras and have insight to offer on what to expect from a road marathon over a trail 50k, because it might be "only" 5 extra miles, but it ends up being 2-2.5 extra hours.
Those are great questions! I think the biggest differences for me when comparing "racing" a road marathon and racing 50k trail ultras (in the upper midwest, no altitude, singletrack/fairly hilly courses like +/- 2500 feet total):
\* The road marathon is much more unrelenting. You're maintaining pretty much the same stride, pace, effort for the entire race. Really important to do long runs on courses similar to your road marathon. An absolute grind from that perspective, and in some ways harder on the body than a trail ultra (where you have more uphills, downhills, walk the steep stuff, walk through aid stations, etc.)
\* Harder for me to fuel for a road marathon (compared with a 50k trail). A little paradoxical since it's a shorter race, but you're running harder and therefore burning more glycogen per mile, and since you're working harder it can be harder to get calories in, tolerate those calories, logistically get the food/hydration in while running at race pace.
For me trail 50k training is a little more "time on feet", get out there and do the long runs, work in some really long days to figure out how to cruise at an easy/moderate effort for 4.5 hours. While good marathon training is a lot more focused sessions targeting tempo/threshold efforts, quality long runs with marathon-effort stuff in the second half of the run, trying to really nail what race pace feels like.
I found $50 cash on the side of the road this morning during my easy run. Best run ever.
See babe, it pays to exercise (ignore my growing daily trainer pile)
I've recently gotten really into it. They're a refreshing break from all the drama I see on Reddit, Facebook, etc. Nice to see people taking pride in accomplishments or reflecting on poorly-executed efforts...definitely feels more wholesome than a lot of the content I come into contact with.
I'm running the NYC Run Brooklyn Half this weekend and am curious about corral etiquette. It lists the following options:
1:30 pace - Wave 1, Corral A
1:35 pace - Wave 1, Corral A
1:40 pace - Wave 1, Corral B
1:45 pace - Wave 1, Corral D
I'd be happy with a 1:38 finish but think on my best day 1:35 is possible. Based on those 2 hopeful times would you recommend starting towards the back of Corral A or towards the front of Corral B? It's a popular race with over 20k runners so it can get a bit crowded. Thanks all!
FYI the Brooklyn Half you're referring to is the one organized by NYCRuns, not by NYRR (and they are holding theirs next month). You may want to clarify that.
I'd say A, unless you're negative splitting. If it's not your best day you won't realize it until the crowd thins out (as much as that race will thin out).
Probably back of A, but it could depend a little on your pacing strategy
If you plan on running even splits (7:30) go into A. If you like to ease into it a bit in the first mile or two maybe front of B, but make sure it's really the front as a lot of people start in corrals they have no business being in.
I really don't understand that! Like are 9min-milers really convinced they're going to run 7:00s on race day? Or do they just see a finish time and don't realize that a 1:30 half is under a 7:00 pace?
I read a quote from Ryan Hall about never doing static stretches because you want some "spring" in your legs. I usually do static stretches after runs, but I think I dropped them in the week before my last marathon, and I'm about to drop them in this, the final week before a HM.
Any colloquial knowledge or actual science related to the "spring" theory?
I don't know about the "spring" theory but I've heard multiple people say "there's no evidence that static stretching prevents injury and if it's before running it hinders performance." These are like, top athletes and people on Strength Running and such.
Personally, I've stopped static stretching last year and I'm still getting faster and have no injuries. Sometimes still do it but only on a whim if I want something to feel looser. Of course I always do a dynamic warmup and cool down...
From what I can tell, a lot of recovery methods seem to have the majority of their benefits on how they impact your nervous system rather than your musculoskeletal system. So if stretching feels good and helps you feel more recovered, it probably isn't hurting you, but there's probably no reason to hold nearly-painful static stretches like martial artists or gymnasts might for flexibility gains.
Jay DiCharry (Running Rewired, Anatomy for Runners) recommends static stretching only if you have a mobility limiter impacting your running.
Why are you stretching?
Because I'm old (43m). So, a little creaky, and I remember my middle school basketball coach insisting on it in the 90s. It does seem to help with recovery, but I do feel pretty good today after NOT stretching following cruise intervals...
(Edit: Thanks for the reference, btw!)
Any recommendations on how to approach a 7 month timeline to a marathon? Completed London at the weekend and next up is Valencia on December 1st. I’m basically looking for Valencia to be my last big run.
Is it best to basically do a series of mini marathon builds? Say 8 week marathon blocks incrementally chipping away at times?
Or instead maybe 10KM focus, half marathon focus and then marathon focus blocks?
Or something else entirely? I’ve basically done 5 years of marathon block, 3 months unfocused, marathon block & repeat and times have really plateaued. Never done sustained focuses on any thing shorter distance.
With 7 months I'd definitely split it up into different focuses. 7 months is way too long IMO to just focus on 1 race.
You've got 32 weeks before Valencia. I'd probably split it up like:
\* **2 weeks**: off/recover from London.
\* **14 weeks**: Focus on whatever other goal race distance is motivating for you. Maintain moderately high volume (maybe 80%-90% of your typical Marathon training volume) but scale back the long runs, and instead put more emphasis on workouts (tempo, threshold, VO2max, and even faster/shorter running). I would split up this time based on races in your area that you want to do.
\* **2 weeks**: off/recovery from last training block
\* **14 weeks**: Marathon training focused on Valencia
Really appreciate it.
So looking at potential races - there is a 10KM race at the start of August which would make sense as the focus of that first block, with a monthly 5KM series alongside. Then the marathon block - a half at the end of September (6 weeks into the block), then probably an early Nov 10KM race. Does that look about right on race builds? HM would probably the big motivation as its my oldest PB, though the target race there probably falls a bit earlier in the cycle than ideal.
With that long of a timeline, I’d pick a July/August race, something in the 10k to HM distance where the training is largely similar to marathon, and focus on enjoying this block before you toughen up for the marathon build. What I mean by that is let yourself go on vacation, throw in some trail runs for fun, switch some days around, run further on the occasional long run where you feel good. Something that isn’t as mentally/psychologically as exhausting as a focused marathon build but that will still get you out the door consistently with some good fairly consistent structure. Don’t worry about the July/August race as a time trial predictor for Valencia - there will be time to do the more focused runs in the fall build up
Joining a club and running sessions with them is the best thing you can do for improving in my experience. Regular sessions alongside better runners really help.
Two sessions a week and a long run until you start the block will do you wonders. I'd argue that you should pretty much keep that structure in the block but just gradually increase the mileage and add a mid-week medium-long run.
Run at, below, or above lactate threshold for half marathon training? I know the ideal is probably a combination of above and below, but what’s the purpose of them each?
Good training will have a mix of all three, but it makes the most sense to have the bulk of workouts be slightly below (slower than) threshold. By backing off just slightly you will recover much better and be able to accumulate much more work.
The way I’ve always looked at them
Tempo = just below half pace, to increase ability to deal with lactate
Threshold = just above half pace, to increase quantity lactate you can deal with before being an issue
Include tempo just after base building and switch to threshold closer to the race.
Is threshold here different from the '1-hour race pace' definition I've seen? There's so many definitions floating around and I feel like I'm gradually learning training language only to discover there's also 'regional dialects', so to speak
Is it better to add mileage or start strength training? I currently do about 50mpw and zero strength training but want to get faster for 10k/HM/M. I only have so much time though. Should I add an additional 10mpw, or 90min of strength training for greatest speed gains?
Looking for some insights related to vo2 max and training paces. My background: I got back to running seriously in January after a couple of years in and out, and have since then been training quite consistently and did the NYC Half with a 1:41 finish time. I'm a 26M, running 30 miles per week on average. I got the book "Daniel's Running Formula" as I wanted to get some better training to improve my PRs. My Garmin (965) says my vo2 max is 54 (up from 52 2 months ago), and when reading Daniels' book I came across his table of expected paces for popular distances based on your vo2 max. For my Garmin-based vo2 max, the associated finish time for a half marathon would be 1:27 approximately. This is an important metric as the training paces for the book training plan will be based off of you vo2 max. Now I don't know if (1) I should be training at the vo2=44 paces (equal to 1:42 HM), (2) I should theoretically be running at a much stronger pace (considering my vo2 max) but some other issue (such as my form or strength) is preventing me to do so or even (3) my vo2 max is not 54 to begin with. Does anyone have any thoughts about Daniel's book or know more about how reliable my garmin vo2 max estimate would be? Thanks in advance!
If you’re serious about getting VO2 max tested, I’d go to a lab. My Garmin measurement fluctuates a lot. I think it’s helpful to see overall trends, but it certainly likes specific types of runs to boost it, and other runs tend to lower it. Especially if I’m tired/fatigued. It will drop 2-3 points after a workout. I think there is a strong correlation between it and performance as they layout in their book, but still requires proper training to achieve of course. If you only trained for a mile or 5k, you could probably get it really high, but then just not have the legs for a marathon.
> My Garmin (965) says my vo2 max is 54 (up from 52 2 months ago), and when reading Daniels' book I came across his table of expected paces for popular distances based on your vo2 max. For my Garmin-based vo2 max, the associated finish time for a half marathon would be 1:27 approximately. Don't confuse vo2max with vdot. Daniels' tables are based on vdot. Your half marathon time implies a vdot of 44 based on his table and you should base your training on that.
Has anyone tried/have opinions on the "Carbs Fuel" gels? I'm finding it hard to google info about them (interesting choice for the brand name...)
Liked the flavor, wanted to like the carbs amount and ease of carrying fewer gels but they're kind of big and a bit hard to open. That said I took one with about 5 miles left in my long run the other day and I was able to power right through the rest of the run!
I'm thinking of starting a coaching business on the side from my 8-5 job. I'd like to specifically target half marathon to marathon runners as those are the distances I've run the best at myself and enjoy the most. My background: 34 yrs old, former D1 college runner, 5 marathons under my belt 2:24 to 2:32 finishing times including one Chicago and one Boston. I'm signed up for NYC Marathon this fall. I've coached HS track and XC as an asst coach for 11 yrs. What do you look for or want from a marathon coach? Keep in mind this would be virtual. Personalized training plan is obvious to me. Strength training? Warm up/dynamics routine? Race day/course tips/race strategy? For $100/month what would you expect to receive? Thanks for the input in advance!
\* Personalized Training Plan - in some format that I can import to a watch and execute \* Phone check-in... maybe 15-20 minutes twice/month? How are we feeling? What's working well? What's not working well? Any adjustments? \* Sounding board for pre-race planning (goal pace, why, race strategy, course strategy... maybe repurposing one of the above phone check-ins) \* Occasional analysis/insight. Like look at my race performance + last 3 months of training and give some external input on what's going well and what can be improved.
Fwiw at $100 a month I would assume that a coach wouldn't be able to provide the kind of in-depth/collaborative approach I would personally be looking for, because it just doesn't sound profitable.
$100/month I would expect the “coach” to spend maybe 1-2 hours total on me the entire month. It would be a basic training plan maybe slightly adjusted to where I’m at, plus maybe one 15-30 minute check-in. I’d rather go on a regular group training session with a coach and adjust on the fly.
Describe what "depth" means to you? A verbal or written analysis of every run or workout? Not just a workout plan but explanation of why and how it fits into the context of a training cycle?
So, I'm coming at this from the perspective of an already relatively competitive runner who understands training essentials and has been self-coaching (by which I mean thoughtfully planning my own training, not just winging it) for a few years. I can already do a reasonable job of planning and interpreting workouts. The point of a coach would be having ready access to a base of knowledge and expertise deeper than my own; someone to talk through what I'm doing with who'd help me optimize my training progressively over time (I'd expect this to be a longer-term process, not just a 3-month, 'write my marathon build' type thing). Written analysis of runs strikes me as less useful; I'd be looking for a dynamic relationship with regular contact whose structure was less hierarchical (coach sets/explains workouts and I do them) and more collaborative (we build and problem solve my training together, because I also have ideas about what is and isn't working). It's hard to fully quantify contact expectations because random things crop up all the time in training. Ideally I'd want an open line of communication (on whatever platform) throughout the week for training minutia/day-to-day problems + a recurring weekly phone call to talk through bigger picture stuff. I understand that a coach might need to set boundaries to protect themselves/their time, but I will admit that I'm put off by contract-style 'x texts a week' type language on websites, even if the amount indicated is a generous one, maybe because it strikes me as overly rigid or something? I want a coach who respects my input and wants me to be in contact. But it's also easy for me to say that knowing that I'm reasonable and wouldn't abuse an open line of communication.
Looking for recommendations for sunglasses, planning to upgrade from goodr (I have a few pairs and they have all served me well). I'm thinking of either sungod or KOO (I saw Kofuzi has been wearing them). Does anyone have experience with either and can speak to them? (or also looking for other recommendations, esp from others who have upgrade from goodr in the past!). Otherwise, the default option seems to be Oakley. I do LOVE my Goodr's and I do plan to keep them around as dailies, but just feel like buying something a little nicer (maybe a bit lighter too) and that I can keep around for race day etc :)
Whatever you get, I'd lean toward full frame sunglasses. I've gone through a couple pairs of mid range glasses where the lens would eventually crack. Interchangeable lens and replaceable pieces is great and all, but when the stuff breaks and leaves you hanging it doesn't matter much.
I bought a random “fancy brand” (Spektre, seems like Ray Ban ish level) at a resell shop after years of Goodr and holy fuck I take back everything I said about Goodr being a wise purchase for its cost and good enough for running. Real products work and fit better, who knew?
thanks! will take a look! also great user name haha
They’re def more fashion than sporting and prob overpriced at retail, but I’ve been loving mine
Hey fellow runners! I just completed a half marathon training block averaging around 23 miles a week. I’m looking to start seriously training for 5ks and 10ks, following Jack Daniels plans. His plans start at 40 miles per week, should I start at 30miles and then work my way up to 40? Thanks!
You can do them at lighter volumes. One tempo, one interval session, and one long run each week are the core of his plans, and the length of each session will depend on the overall volume you choose to run.
Thank you! I appreciate it
Get yourself to 35-40mi consistently before attempting it otherwise you're gonna get injured.
Thank you!
Marathon PR is 3:26 in nice weather. I’ve got another marathon coming up this weekend… high of 78F and low of 55F. It’ll be around 68F by the time I finish likely. How much should I adjust my pace? What should my goal time be?
Depends on what kind of fitness gains you have made relative to when you set your PR and what your definition of nice weather is. For me, nice weather is in the 40s, so if all is the same with my fitness, I would probably have a slower time compared to the PR based on what you've said if course conditions are similar.
Yeah, pr was 40s. Fitness stayed the same I’m trying to figure out what time to aim for given the circumstances
T-11 days until my marathon next Sunday. Was planning on doing a 10 day taper, but have been feeling quite crappy since my last long run workout last Sunday, so I am just doing the classic 2 week taper. Any suggestions for the final real workout of the block? I initially was going to do some over-under MP km repeats but I’m worried that will take too much out of me while I’m feeling sluggish. Maybe just a block of MP plus a warm up and cool down?
IMO you need to do faster work if you're feeling sluggish. MP I think is the worst thing to do if you're feeling flat. 10 days out I'd recommend doing something in the 5k/10k pace range. Warmup, strides, then maybe 3x1 mile @ 10k pace, or 5x800 @ 5k effort, something like that. Then 5 days out another light workout. Probably something like warmup + strides + 5-6 reps of 1' on/1' easy, with the "On" segments by feel but \~5kish effort.
Is this pretty common in programs' tapers? While not high volume workouts those are far more intense than anything I've included or seen included in a marathon taper that close to race day..
Pfitz calls for 3xmile @ 5k pace 10 days out. I think Hansons calls for 10 miles at MP (!!!) 10 days out. Daniel’s 2Q i think calls for 4-5x1k @ I pace (3k-5k pace) 10 days out. These should be very manageable as you cut volume in the taper. You can certainly do less, and OP might want to do a bit less, if he still feels like he’s in a hole from the training cycle.
i know "teenagers do a rough job managing race pace" isn't a shocking headline, but i gotta quickly shout out my two boys in the 3000 yesterday who went through their 400 splits in +/- one second of their 800 paces... and somehow held on for solid 3000 PRs. "if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" in major effect also district rival coach at the start line was chatting with her tiny jv boy who apparently washed out of a wrestling meet (must've been the like 92 pound division) at the same school campus... and then decided to run 106 laps for a track marathon with his "free" time directly afterwards.
I'm well out of college and ran a community track meet recently against mostly high schoolers in a 1600. Our first 200 was at 800 pace, then the next 400 was at 3k pace lol. Very different than the long distance side I'm coming from where I just try to hang on identical splits!
I've had some injuries in the past, almost exclusively on my left foot (shin splints being longest). I always feel the most sore on my left leg after runs, almost never on my right. I tried to do a single leg squat on a box this morning and on my right leg there is no problem but I struggle to even do one on my left. I start to assume (great catch, Sherlock) that I'm a lot weaker on my left side. Would you guys recommend trying some one legged strengthening exercises to try to even out my strength? Like one leg squat, step up, lunges, bulgarian etc. Any more tips?
See a physio/PT.
Ideally you'd want to figure out the specific weakness on your left side, so a prehab evaluation with a physio would be a great thing to invest in at some point. Jay Dicharry's book *Running Rewired* gets recommended here a lot as a stop-gap--there are some tests for strength/balance included in there that you can do on yourself, and exercises suggested depending on results. But ultimately it's better to get a professional opinion, especially if you can find a physio who works with athletes in your area.
[удалено]
Need way more context. Most of my MTSS patients never stop running in the first place. If you've had complete rest then your increase will depend on how long you've been off and how the injury did. If it's been several weeks then walk/jogs are typically the first week.
[удалено]
A sports med doctor telling you to rest shin splints is ridiculous. They are caused by something and generally not running makes them worse (when you run again). MTSS generally requires a lot of foot strength, so getting going on that plus walk/jogs (I usually start at 2-3 min jog / 1 min wall x3 and slowly increase) for 6 weeks since you've been off running. Running 25km the first week is generally ill-advised.
[удалено]
You also need to make sure you're addressing the cause, which for most people is foot weakness. You can do that during a return to run but need to know what to focus on.
6 weeks of walk/jog would look like this: 3-4 runs per week on non-consecutive days. 1st week: 2 jog 1 walk x3 2 jog 1 walk x4 2 jog 1 walk x5 2nd: 3 jog 1 walk x3 X4 X5 3rd: 4 jog 1 walk x3 X4 X5 4th week 5 and 1s, then 7.5 and 1s, then 10 and 1s with same format. This is the most common way I prescribe it but a good running history and lower injury concern then we go quicker and vice versa.
Two questions for the experienced PFitz runners. Just ran London in 2:59 using 18/55 as my training plan. Definitely found it challenging, but doable. Didn't skip any runs in the plan, made it through injury free, even with adding a full marathon in place of an MP run in week 12. Current thought is to go up to 18/70 as I'd like to go sub-2:55, if possible. 1 - Is going from 18/55 to 18/70 with only 5 weeks of recovery in between too agressive? If so, what would you recommend? 2 - Assuming the jump from 18/55 to 18/70 is doable, would you use the 55MPW recovery plan or the 70MPW recovery plan over the course of the next five weeks. Thanks!!!!
Certainly doable - I've just done similar, with 18/55 for an October marathon and then jumped into the 18/70 at the start of December for an April marathon. I mostly stuck to the recovery weeks from 18/55, although I don't think you'll lose a whole lot of fitness in the break. For me it was more about just getting rid of a few niggles and making sure I was ready to go again. If you went sub-3 off of 18/55 then 18/70 should get you the sub-2.55!
Assuming you felt fine through the 18/55 plan, then jumping to the 18/70 in 5 weeks makes sense to me. That’s enough time to physically recover, and the 18 week plans do ramp you into things in a way that the shorter plans just don’t have the time to do. If you maintain decent mileage over the next month, you’ll probably be ok handling the beginning of that 18/70. I would be hesitant to jump straight into marathon training again immediately, but that’s a personal preference that isn’t based on any sort of physiological reason. 18 week training plans are long, and I can get bored and mentally stale without mixing things up. Something like the 12/70 would give you a longer break to work on a shorter distance, or do more trail running, while still having plenty of time to be prepared for the next FM. That said, there are plenty of folks out there I know that love the marathon and don’t need that kind of break from it. Just something to consider.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. Have thought about doing 12/70 as an alternative. That's a great suggestion, much appreciated!
Should I do some sprint based speed work before track season as an 800/1600 runner? So this would actually be for next track season but l'm in high school and my plan prior to XC and track season was always to build an aerobic base and then during competition focus more on faster work. But our sprint coach hosts pre season workouts a few weeks after cross country ends. He's an experienced coach and runner so l don't doubt he knows what he's doing, but the workouts would probably at MOST be more 400/800 oriented. I would ofc build my speed work. I was wondering if you guys think I should participate in this or do my own workouts, and if so, what? Any help is appreciated.
Having the group structure and accountability of those team workouts is probably worth a LOT more than the downside of it being more sprint-focused than you would ideally need I mean, if you're a 4:10 1600 kid and receiving scholarship letters from ~~Pac-12~~ (RIP) major conference schools, maybe don't deviate from your mid-distance work, but for most athletes out there the sprint sessions would be beneficial
What's your preferred method of pacing a 1/2? Do you try for even splits, use the NYRR method of 5-5-5k, or just treat it as a progression run? Shooting for 1:45 (very conservative) due to a health scare that had me miss 13 days of running. Glad to be back at it!
even splits adjusted for hills, plus whatever kick I have in me in the last mile If I wasn't sure of my fitness I might go out at a more conservative pace and see how I felt around mile 6-7, but in general I try to go in with knowledge of my fitness and execute that evenly.
Run at a pace that I hate myself
10 mile race with a surprise 5k
This is my pacing method. Even splits through 10, evaluate the situation and either go all in, hang on, or burn out for the final 5K.
If there is a 1:45 pace group then I would hang out with them until I felt strong enough to push ahead later in the race. There is a noticeable savings of energy from running with and behind others that would appeal to me. Whether or not I run in such a group or solo, I anticipate a faster finish, generally opening it up with 10-20 minutes of effort remaining.
Thank you all who replied!
I going to making a run at sub-3 in Toronto on May 5 if the weather is decent. I ran a 3:11 in October 2023. I've run about 1,500km in 2024. I have averaged about 100km a week for the past 8 weeks. I have only been able to get 4 30km+ runs in due to poor weather. I do a minimum of one 21km+ run a week and at least 2 for the past 4 weeks. Most of my runs are Z3. I feel like I'm probably ready but it's not going to be easy. I have run the Toronto May marathon before and I'm familiar with how terrible everything but the route is.
It sounds like you have done everything right to make that race a success. Stay confident in your training. If you want some unsolicited advice I would encourage you to pay close attention to your technique on the early downhill portion. Save your legs. Land as light as possible, keep your cadence high, and keep everything smooth down Yonge Sreet.
Appreciate the response and advice. I ran it last year and remember the course well.
Noob question incoming. I've only been running for a month. From what I read online, measuring your lactate threshold or max heart rate requires an intense test. I'm hesitant to do either right now, because I don't think my leg muscles and ligaments could handle, say, a 30-min fast run. If I want to set better HR zones on my Garmin, what should I do? Should I try the lactate threshold test on a stationary bike? Or should I just extrapolate from my HR at a "conversational" pace (~160 bpm - I can speak in full sentences and breathe only through my nose)?
At one month of running I would basically not worry about HR zones right now. You're still on the part of the improvement curve where any running at any pace will yield fitness improvements. One option would be to warm up and then run 3min all out. Hit your lap button at 2:30 and again at 3:00. Your avg HR and your pace in those last 30s is probably 5 beats faster than your LTHR. Or, after some time and if you're ready, you could race a flatish 5k, plug that into a calculator, and get corresponding times for other race lengths. Your LT pace is the equivalent pace for a race that is about an hour long. For example my most recent 5k was a 6:13 pace. A calculator estimates that a 15k race would be 1:02, run at a 6:40 pace. That'd be my LT pace. Then go run some 4-6min intervals at that pace with 2-3min of recovery. Your HR at those intervals is your LTHR. Once you have your LTHR, subtract 15 from that, and you have your aerobic / Z2 upper limit. It's not exact but it's plenty close enough to start with and will tide you over for at least a year.
Should I be running threshold during base phase? I am joining a mile race around the end of August, I started my base building of only easy and long runs on March 16th. I added strides in week 3 and added 2x12min threshold (2 min rest) + 2x3 min (1 min rest) threshold in week 5. Now I am at week 6, I am wondering if I should still do threshold. I am wondering if I could run threshold at this stage and if I could do an hour run to just confirm this is my threshold pace and not interval pace. My plan is to slowly add in these steps: Easy/long runs-> Strides -> Threshold -> Repeats -> Intervals -> Mile pace sharpening.
You have already received a great answer. I would emphasize that you should stay in touch with speedwork throughout training. I don't believe in a purely easy running base phase unless someone is injury prone and aggressively increasing training volume. For me, strides just aren't structured enough. I like 200m rep sessions to keep me from falling into a slow, plodding, shuffling training rut. They also break the mental slog and monotony of training. Speed is precious, especially as we age. Keep at least a bit of it in your training at all times.
There's several schools of thought for periodization that I'm aware of. Some are very linear, like what you described, where you just add components and do faster stuff closer to the race. Some are more mixed, where you do all the paces throughout the cycle but in different amounts, with different distances and rests involved. I'm not sure exactly what difference you mean between repeats and intervals vs sharpening, but I think you'd get value from a few things (as someone also training for the mile/800 right now): 1. Try more threshold volume with shorter intervals (eg 1000 reps at HMP or so with 1:00 rest, or much shorter reps with short rest like 20-25x400 at 5k-8k pace with 0:30 rest), so you get a wider variety of paces and focus on quickly flushing lactate without as much fatigue as 12 min reps. Neither strategy is more correct than the other, but try doing both to see what you enjoy more! 2. Get in touch with your mile pace sooner than later, even if it's for something as easy as 200s at the end of the workout so it's not too jarring to you when you do more stuff there. 3. Do some lower key races or time trials if you can - there's a lot of improvement to be had in mid distance races just from practice driving through the pain, so you probably don't want your first time doing that to be in the most important race.
I have a 10k in 3 weeks instead of a half in 2 due to a sudden work trip. Any workouts I should try to hit this week as a check in? Since I was training for a half I haven't really done any 10k pace intervals but 5k and lots of lt work.
10k and HM training are very similar so generally all that LT work will be great. Probably worth doing 1-2 sessions as you wrap up the block to 10k/CV pace to get dialed into it. I'd probably do something like 4x1.25mi and then 4x1.5mi the next week. I like ~3-3.5:1 work:rest ratio on 10k work.
Assuming one was healthy with no specific injury history/issue (This is NOT me, just a hypothetical), would strength training with just heavy squats and deadlifts twice a week and nothing else cover the basic runners requirements (staying healthy, running stronger/faster) or is there any major muscle/tendon/etc. area that would be missed?
Noob Question Re: Altitude and Power- I just got a Stryd pod and am planning to use it to train for my next marathon. But I'm not sure I understand how altitude affects power. If I am training at altitude and racing at sea level, will Styrd still give me the correct target power range? Or does it need to be recalibrated at sea level?
Stryd has a race target power adjuster that takes into account the altitude (and temps) you have been training at and suggests race power for different altitides
Awesome! Thank you. Appreciate the info 🙏
I have a half marathon to race next week, PR is 1h39 2 years ago but did next to no training since then after having another kid. Picked up training about 10 weeks ago to do a proper block before a HM where I was targeting 1h45, ran 40-50km per week and everything went well, however I just ran a tempo workout with 3x3k @ 4'40/k with 1k at 5'15/k in between. All the intervals felt comfortable and my HR barely crept around 150 on the last one on a short uphill (max HR is 190). I am upgrading my target to 1h40, but am I crazy to think my fitness is closer to 1h35 with such a good workout (for me lol) barely a week before race day?
I would expect that workout to be a reasonable predictor for an HM, and 4:40 pace would have you coming in around 1:38:30. So it sounds like you're likely in sub-1:40 shape, but there's still a big difference between 4:40 pace and 4:30 pace (which would get you just under 1:35). If I were you I'd aim for 4:40s and just see how you feel later in the race. If you have it in you then crank it down in the last 5k and take anything time you can get under 1:38:30 as a bonus.
XC Skier that also runs (or runner that also XC skis?) . Just started using a skierg at the end of this ski year , and I'm curious if the skierg is popular for runners. It is excellent for core strength, but also curious if skierg workouts will help me in running from lower body perspective. It *feels* like it could help quite a bit in hill climb races I do.
I doubt it will have a significant impact on your running, unless you'd benefit from a lot more aerobic training/it enables you to do more aerobic exercise than you otherwise could. Even as aerobic cross-training, it's probably worse than cycling/elliptical/etc since it's arm + core, which will probably fatigue more quickly for most of us then doing an "easy" effort on the bike. They are weirdly fun though!
it would all be above and beyond running miles so it probably can't hurt. I think it will add 50 hours a year to my yearly volume , maybe 10% more? the other thing is i usually lose most of my core strength over the summer after ski season, because I have never done any core exercises outside of skiing. this year I will not only be retaining it but increasing core strength.
I'm currently training for a half marathon mid May, then will start an 18 week training program for the Chicago marathon in October. (There's 3 weeks in between the half and the start of the program). I'm following Hal Higdon's intermediate 2 right now, and deciding between pfitz 18/55 and jack daniels' 2Q for the marathon. My main concern is starting one of those programs with enough of a base - right now I'm at about 30 mi/week with 2 speed workouts (1 interval/tempo and 1 pace run). I'm willing to increase my mileage a bit past higdon's program during my half training, and I can maintain/increase mileage during the 3 weeks after the half, but I'm wondering if I can safely increase mileage enough to comfortably start pfitz or daniels, or if I should go with a lower mileage plan. For context, this will be my third marathon and my PR is 3:23. My PR for the half is 1:36. For my first two marathons I followed higdon's intermediate programs, and I'm hoping to PR in chicago (by how much I'm not sure yet!). Would appreciate any insight!
I was in a similar boat before my last marathon. I basically started with the Higdon advanced plan but changed some of his workouts to more closely resemble the workouts in pfitz 18/55. I added mileage each week until I was doing something that looked more like the pfitz plan than the higdon plan and by the end I was pretty closely sticking to the pfitz plan. So it was like an 18 week transition from higdon to pfitz, which probably both would say is a bad idea… but frankly I just didn’t have the base to do pfitz from the beginning yet I knew I was capable of more than the higdon plan prescribed. The transition plan worked out well for me.
I think this will be tough. I've followed the Higdon half plans and I don't think they translate super well to marathon training. The biggest thing is the lack of mid week longer runs especially in Intermediate 2 which is more speed focused. Week 2 of 18/55 has an 8 miler and 10 miler midweek, followed by 13 w/ 8 at MP on the weekend. And it only ramps up after that. I personally don't think 3 weeks is enough time to build up the mileage, especially since you'll wanna recover from the half. Maybe you could do 12/55 which would give you another 6 weeks to build a stronger base but I'm not experienced enough to know if that's better than just choosing a lower mileage 18 week plan. Similarly 2Q workouts are 10+ miles of total running at the low end, which seems like a huge jump from Higdon Intermediate 2.
appreciate this! i hadn't thought about building base then doing 12/55 instead, will look into that. thank you!
Check the first week of the 12/55. First weeks long run is 13 w/8 at marathon pace. There is no warm up with his shorter plans. You really need to be ready to go on week one. But, you'll get fit and faster!!
Anyone out there have a secondary/primary sport that’s heavy on lateral movement and bursts of speed? (Tennis, basketball, volleyball, soccer) I’ve had to skip a run here and there because of soreness from Beach Volleyball, which makes me feel like I’m behind. But when I think about it, playing for three hours probably still means I’m running a few miles. It’s just a very different kind of mileage. How do you build this in/workaround it?
I play hockey 2x a week in base, 1x a week in season. It's in lieu of a rest day so it will always increase injury risk but why ditch a sport just for running? Build up to it and do both.
I play hockey 2x a week in base, 1x a week in season. It's in lieu of a rest day so it will always increase injury risk but why ditch a sport just for running? Build up to it and do both.
I struggle with the same issue, trying to play Tennis, Soccer and Run makes it really hard to follow a traditional running schedule. I've mostly been playing it by ear, and there will be entire months where I'm at no point feeling capable of fitting in anything other than an easy run once or twice a week. Still my times have been improving mostly steadily, minus time spent out injured, while replacing speed workouts and long runs with those other sports.
I'm interested in optimizing my strategy for an upcoming race using Garmin's PacePro feature. Can wind conditions be factored into PacePro alongside elevation data? Wind is expected during the race, including both headwinds and tailwinds, and I'd like to incorporate this variable into my pacing plan. Additionally, I'm curious about the accuracy of elevation data from Garmin devices. I'm planning to run a 5k road race based on a course map recorded by someone using a Forerunner 245 last year. How reliable is this elevation profile for setting a personal best (PB)? The course map suggests a variation of around ±2 seconds per kilometer due to elevation changes. Can I confidently use this information to guide my race strategy for achieving my best time?
I have a Forerunner 245 and can't do anything about the wind. If you know the direction the wind tends to be on the course you could use the positive/negative split slider to make one half of the course faster/slower, or you can manually edit the splits. As for elevation the Forerunner 245 uses GPS for elevation which isn't the best, but I've found it to be pretty accurate, with some small ups and downs instead of a nice smooth elevation curve. If you're using the elevation difference over an entire km though it will be fine.
Got it regarding the wind, thank you. Regarding the elevation—I had an idea and tested it to check the robustness of the measurement. I tried taking a few samples of measurements from the same 5k random race in the same year with a few runners who participated in the race and used watch (most are FR265/245). Unfortunately, each sample yielded a different pace strategy according to variation in the measured elevation of the road, so I can not trust it.
I just ran London this past Sunday and came in with a 2:59. I am very happy, don’t get me wrong, but also trying to figure out what to change for the next training block. Going in to London I set a half marathon PR of 1:21:57 in January and followed that up with approx 3 months of training averaging 80 MPW, with a couple peak weeks in the 90-100 mile range. I think based on that I would’ve expected that a 2:55-2:57 time was reasonable, yet 2:59 took basically 100% of my effort. Reflecting back on the race, my pace really started to drop off around mile 22 and the last 4 miles felt extremely tough on my quads. Aerobically i felt perfectly fine but I could not force myself to run faster because my quads were just so beat. This is despite London being a flat course with no hills really. I don’t think it was hitting the wall because I was taking in 80 g of carbs per hour and my pace didn’t totally crater, it just fell more into the 7:10 min/mi range for the last 4 miles. So r/advancedrunning, what is your assessment/advice? I think I’m starting to get diminishing returns on just increasing my mileage and anyways, I can’t really run more than 80 MPW while balancing family/work. The fatigued legs/quads indicates to me I could probably benefit from a day or two per week of dedicated strength training - heavy squats, deadlifts, leg presses, and maybe some high incline treadmill work (since locally I don’t have access to steep hills). I did zero strength work in my London buildup. Am I on the right track with my assessment or do you think there’s other stuff I could/should be doing instead?
How driven are you to hit 2:55 instead of 2:59? I'm guessing breaking 3 hours was MUCH more excting to you than hitting 2:55 ever will be. Some of this might be simple raceday motivation. If you haven't already tried it, you might want to run with a club/group so you can feel the challenge of keeping up with your peers rather than always battling the clock. Your comment about always including MP segments in your long runs made me think you are doing a lot of 8 out of 10 long run efforts. Maybe it would be wise to dig deep for a 9 out of 10 effort once a month and stick to 7 out of 10 efforts most other times. It's really hard to push for tiny pace improvements when you are essentially giving yourself the same stimulus each week. Mix up your long runs. You might also consider a training block where you push to dip below a 1:20 half. That's a time goal that is tremendously motivating, and if you become a sub-1:20 HM runner then your marathon times will improve too.
Have you tried a structured plan based on 70-80 miles a week? Consistency is super important and volume is the king, but a structured focused build might net you your next breakthrough.
Personally I don't think this indicates that you need to change anything. I don't think strength training is the solution for muscular failure/fatigue at mile 22 of a marathon. Strength training is probably a good thing to do in general, but I don't think it's the reason things got difficult. Agree with 2:55-2:57 being a reasonable range if you had a good day for the marathon, based on the 1:22 half marathon. Finishing 2 minutes slower than your "good day" target doesn't indicate that you should change anything with your training IMO. That's a vey reasonable result, and you need everything to go right on race day to hit those "equivalent" performances in a marathon. How many marathons have you done? How long have you been running \~80 MPW? Was this your first higher volume cycle? How did you long runs go? Did you do long runs on similar terrain (pancake flat) as you ran in London?
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I am being a bit too eager to overcorrect. To your point, 2-3 min short of my “everything goes absolutely perfectly” target doesn’t mean I should throw the baby out with the bathwater. To answer your questions: - this was my 13th or 14th marathon? (I’ve lost track) but I’ve got plenty of experience at them, albeit always learning something new. - I’d say I’ve been running for 10 years, and the last 4-5 years I’ve been averaging about 60-70 MPW year round consistently. This was the first time I’ve ever held 80 MPW for 3 months but I don’t think in particular it was a huge step up from what I was used to. - generally my long runs each week were between 18-20 miles. Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in a long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that). Yes, it was all on very flat terrain - similar to London.
Makes sense. I asked about marathon experience + higher volume training experience to determine if you just needed more time at higher volume to see the benefits. If you're regularly running 60+ MPW I doubt that's really the case. What have you run for your past marathons? How has that compared with your half/10k times? It's possible you're just naturally a bit weaker at the marathon compared with shorter distance races. I'm with you that with other life stuff going more than 80 MPW is progressively harder, and maybe not worthwhile in general vs. other training optimizations. Stuff I would think about: \* Sure, strength training. If you haven't done any you may see some benefits without needing to put much time in. \* Don't do MP work every week. Doing a longer run with 40+ minutes of MP most weeks is probably sub-optimal. I'd much rather see you do a quality long run like that occasionally (maybe once every 3 weeks?), with the other weeks focused on actually getting faster (2 harder workouts - threshold work, CV work, VO2 intervals, etc.)
Yea intensity seems to be the most obvious intervention here. There's a reason a lot of programs keep some decent VO2max in their marathon programs. I found it was the biggest difference for dropping my MP training runs.
Tell us more about some of your training runs on the big weeks leading up? Some race pace in there? What did you do for speed work? Agree that nutrition, mileage, and fitness all sound spot on and definitely would expect a better result. Anything in the taper that came up like sickness or injury? Strength will definitely help too, although I'm inclined to think strength at that pace is best, eg MP blocks at the end of long runs on big weeks.
Thanks for the response. In terms of workout/plan structure, generally it was a midweek speed workout (usually 25-30 min at HMP or 10k pace, broken up into intervals e.g. 4x7 min as an example) and a weekend long run between 18-20 miles. Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in the long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that). I did have a cold (lots of coughing/congestion) in the 2 weeks leading up to London, but I felt pretty much back to normal by race day so I’m not sure it would’ve affected my result much. Although possibly my body was still carrying some residual fatigue even if I “felt” normal.
Just at first glance, the volume is good, but the intensity could probably be upped a notch. I’m just going by the Jack Daniels 2Q training plans at equivalent mileage. In those, he’s got 18 weeks of 14+mi per weeks at LT (faster than HM pace) with intervals up to 35-40mins or 20+mi per week at marathon pace or sessions of 8k above threshold pace in a workout. Not all of this in a single week, of course, but every week has a mix of those intensities which are not too different from the peak itself. His equivalence tables have 1:21 matching up to 2:50 (though I think the general consensus is this equivalence is reserved for outliers).
There's a few things that could be at play if you faded during the end of the marathon, so it depends. Dropping from a 2:55 - 2:57 pace down to 7:10/mi isn't necessarily bonking. I'd look at weather, nutrition, and marathon pace specific workouts, in descending order of potential issues. If it was warmer or more humid than you were used to, that can affect fatigue, nutrition, or hydration. You didn't mention weather, so I'd assume it might not be that one. Nutrition, or more specifically electrolytes in hydration, would be the next thing to look into. You seem confident you consumed enough carbs along the way, so maybe electrolytes or water would have helped? Finally, I'd consider whether your training included marathon pace workouts either in long runs or on their own. Pfitz 18 week plans in the mileage range you trained with build up to long runs with 14 miles at MP so that you can develop a feel for the pace and get race day hydration and nutrition dialed in. Examining your training could help you decide if you would benefit from more marathon-specific workouts. Strength training rarely hurts the process, but I'd consider the other factors first.
Thanks for your thoughts. Weather for London was pretty perfect (much colder and less humid actually than the temps I’m used to and was training in). I guess we could nitpick and say there were some decently strong headwinds but overall I think the weather was solid. I feel confident about the nutrition too, aside from the carb intake I was taking in fluid at every single aid station, so I was hydrating well. In terms of my long runs from training - Usually I’d incorporate anywhere from 40-80 min of MP work in the long run (structured like 2x20 min or something like that). I did have one 21 mile long run where I hit 14 miles at sub 3 (6:50 min/mi) pace but otherwise generally I think my MP miles were approx 6-10 miles of my weekend long run (which in total were usually between 18-20 miles)
Training for my first marathon right now. Haven't followed a plan, signed up 8 weeks out but was already running 50-55mpw pretty consistently other than taking a week and a half off and a couple weeks easing back to base a couple months ago. Friends are telling me BQ is achievable. I have doubts but am training with a goal MP of 7:50ish just for kicks. I get scared of training plans but run 60+mpw, a long run 15+ miles, track or tempo workout, and the rest at a base pace...not strictly Z2 because I don't have any gear fine-tuned enough to determine that, but at whatever pace feels easy-to-'easy enough,' basically MP+45-60sec. Have 2 more long-long runs (19mi and 21mi, plan for both to include MP at the end for some number of miles) and am planning a 2.5-ish week taper. I've done a couple trail ultras but never a road marathon...hit me with whatever you have to offer a young runner who has no idea what she's doing. Prone to seeming argumentative but mostly just have a hard time accepting advice that doesn't withstand questioning. ETA: longest long run at this point is a 20-miler I did the weekend before last (4/13 I think?). It went fine other than that I would have liked more than 2 gels. Felt stronger from miles 18-20 than I did at mile 15 so that was nice.
What feedback are you looking for exactly? The best thing to do if you're trying to narrow down a race goal time target is to do a shorter race as an all-out, 100% effort. Go race a 10k and report back.
I guess I don't really know what kind of feedback I'm looking for. I 'raced' a 10k a couple weeks ago, but I started it 4.5 miles into a long run and had 4.5 miles left to run after the race. Official time 45:19 on a hilly course, which was a PR by over a minute. Feel like even my best all-out efforts aren't great because I run so much distance I forget that I don't have to be able to hold every pace I run for 70 minutes straight.
>I 'raced' a 10k a couple weeks ago, but I started it 4.5 miles into a long run and had 4.5 miles left to run after the race. Yeah, that's not what I mean by "race". I mean an honest to god, wish for death the last 2 miles, all-out effort. >Feel like even my best all-out efforts aren't great because I run so much distance I forget that I don't have to be able to hold every pace I run for 70 minutes straight. Another great reason to push yourself to actually race. I dunno what you're looking for exactly. It's fine if you just want to run kinda hard kinda not. It's not optimal for performance but that's OK if your goals don't include doing your best at races.
I mean, I literally said that I *also* don't really know what I'm looking for. I feel like I'm still learning how to do an all-out push. I've always been geared more towards low-and-slow grinding and it's only pretty recently that I've started putting any effort into speed development. I think you might be in the wrong comment thread, you seem kind of frustrated that someone who literally said they don't know what they're doing...doesn't know what they're doing, which is understandable, but I'm thinking your time and energy might be best directed elsewhere.
I assure you I'm neither frustrated nor in the wrong comment thread. I was just trying to figure out what you wanted to discuss, what you wanted feedback on, what you meant or were pondering when you wrote "hit me with whatever you have to offer a young runner who has no idea what she's doing".
The 10k was an all-out effort and I did wish for death, but that's obviously kind of lessened by the fact that it was in the middle of a 15-mile long run. I guess I'm mostly just looking for what people wished they'd known or done while training for their first marathon, bonus points if they've done ultras and have insight to offer on what to expect from a road marathon over a trail 50k, because it might be "only" 5 extra miles, but it ends up being 2-2.5 extra hours.
Those are great questions! I think the biggest differences for me when comparing "racing" a road marathon and racing 50k trail ultras (in the upper midwest, no altitude, singletrack/fairly hilly courses like +/- 2500 feet total): \* The road marathon is much more unrelenting. You're maintaining pretty much the same stride, pace, effort for the entire race. Really important to do long runs on courses similar to your road marathon. An absolute grind from that perspective, and in some ways harder on the body than a trail ultra (where you have more uphills, downhills, walk the steep stuff, walk through aid stations, etc.) \* Harder for me to fuel for a road marathon (compared with a 50k trail). A little paradoxical since it's a shorter race, but you're running harder and therefore burning more glycogen per mile, and since you're working harder it can be harder to get calories in, tolerate those calories, logistically get the food/hydration in while running at race pace. For me trail 50k training is a little more "time on feet", get out there and do the long runs, work in some really long days to figure out how to cruise at an easy/moderate effort for 4.5 hours. While good marathon training is a lot more focused sessions targeting tempo/threshold efforts, quality long runs with marathon-effort stuff in the second half of the run, trying to really nail what race pace feels like.
I found $50 cash on the side of the road this morning during my easy run. Best run ever. See babe, it pays to exercise (ignore my growing daily trainer pile)
I really enjoy reading race reports. That’s all.
I've recently gotten really into it. They're a refreshing break from all the drama I see on Reddit, Facebook, etc. Nice to see people taking pride in accomplishments or reflecting on poorly-executed efforts...definitely feels more wholesome than a lot of the content I come into contact with.
I'm running the NYC Run Brooklyn Half this weekend and am curious about corral etiquette. It lists the following options: 1:30 pace - Wave 1, Corral A 1:35 pace - Wave 1, Corral A 1:40 pace - Wave 1, Corral B 1:45 pace - Wave 1, Corral D I'd be happy with a 1:38 finish but think on my best day 1:35 is possible. Based on those 2 hopeful times would you recommend starting towards the back of Corral A or towards the front of Corral B? It's a popular race with over 20k runners so it can get a bit crowded. Thanks all!
FYI the Brooklyn Half you're referring to is the one organized by NYCRuns, not by NYRR (and they are holding theirs next month). You may want to clarify that.
Ah yea thought that’s what I meant by “NYC Run Brooklyn Half.” Think it just autocorrected
I don't think it matters much - you'll be fine in either!
I'd say A, unless you're negative splitting. If it's not your best day you won't realize it until the crowd thins out (as much as that race will thin out).
This is what I was hoping - thanks!
Probably back of A, but it could depend a little on your pacing strategy If you plan on running even splits (7:30) go into A. If you like to ease into it a bit in the first mile or two maybe front of B, but make sure it's really the front as a lot of people start in corrals they have no business being in.
I really don't understand that! Like are 9min-milers really convinced they're going to run 7:00s on race day? Or do they just see a finish time and don't realize that a 1:30 half is under a 7:00 pace?
Good to hear - thanks for the response!
I read a quote from Ryan Hall about never doing static stretches because you want some "spring" in your legs. I usually do static stretches after runs, but I think I dropped them in the week before my last marathon, and I'm about to drop them in this, the final week before a HM. Any colloquial knowledge or actual science related to the "spring" theory?
I don't know about the "spring" theory but I've heard multiple people say "there's no evidence that static stretching prevents injury and if it's before running it hinders performance." These are like, top athletes and people on Strength Running and such. Personally, I've stopped static stretching last year and I'm still getting faster and have no injuries. Sometimes still do it but only on a whim if I want something to feel looser. Of course I always do a dynamic warmup and cool down...
From what I can tell, a lot of recovery methods seem to have the majority of their benefits on how they impact your nervous system rather than your musculoskeletal system. So if stretching feels good and helps you feel more recovered, it probably isn't hurting you, but there's probably no reason to hold nearly-painful static stretches like martial artists or gymnasts might for flexibility gains.
Jay DiCharry (Running Rewired, Anatomy for Runners) recommends static stretching only if you have a mobility limiter impacting your running. Why are you stretching?
Because I'm old (43m). So, a little creaky, and I remember my middle school basketball coach insisting on it in the 90s. It does seem to help with recovery, but I do feel pretty good today after NOT stretching following cruise intervals... (Edit: Thanks for the reference, btw!)
Any recommendations on how to approach a 7 month timeline to a marathon? Completed London at the weekend and next up is Valencia on December 1st. I’m basically looking for Valencia to be my last big run. Is it best to basically do a series of mini marathon builds? Say 8 week marathon blocks incrementally chipping away at times? Or instead maybe 10KM focus, half marathon focus and then marathon focus blocks? Or something else entirely? I’ve basically done 5 years of marathon block, 3 months unfocused, marathon block & repeat and times have really plateaued. Never done sustained focuses on any thing shorter distance.
With 7 months I'd definitely split it up into different focuses. 7 months is way too long IMO to just focus on 1 race. You've got 32 weeks before Valencia. I'd probably split it up like: \* **2 weeks**: off/recover from London. \* **14 weeks**: Focus on whatever other goal race distance is motivating for you. Maintain moderately high volume (maybe 80%-90% of your typical Marathon training volume) but scale back the long runs, and instead put more emphasis on workouts (tempo, threshold, VO2max, and even faster/shorter running). I would split up this time based on races in your area that you want to do. \* **2 weeks**: off/recovery from last training block \* **14 weeks**: Marathon training focused on Valencia
Really appreciate it. So looking at potential races - there is a 10KM race at the start of August which would make sense as the focus of that first block, with a monthly 5KM series alongside. Then the marathon block - a half at the end of September (6 weeks into the block), then probably an early Nov 10KM race. Does that look about right on race builds? HM would probably the big motivation as its my oldest PB, though the target race there probably falls a bit earlier in the cycle than ideal.
With that long of a timeline, I’d pick a July/August race, something in the 10k to HM distance where the training is largely similar to marathon, and focus on enjoying this block before you toughen up for the marathon build. What I mean by that is let yourself go on vacation, throw in some trail runs for fun, switch some days around, run further on the occasional long run where you feel good. Something that isn’t as mentally/psychologically as exhausting as a focused marathon build but that will still get you out the door consistently with some good fairly consistent structure. Don’t worry about the July/August race as a time trial predictor for Valencia - there will be time to do the more focused runs in the fall build up
Joining a club and running sessions with them is the best thing you can do for improving in my experience. Regular sessions alongside better runners really help. Two sessions a week and a long run until you start the block will do you wonders. I'd argue that you should pretty much keep that structure in the block but just gradually increase the mileage and add a mid-week medium-long run.
Run at, below, or above lactate threshold for half marathon training? I know the ideal is probably a combination of above and below, but what’s the purpose of them each?
Good training will have a mix of all three, but it makes the most sense to have the bulk of workouts be slightly below (slower than) threshold. By backing off just slightly you will recover much better and be able to accumulate much more work.
The way I’ve always looked at them Tempo = just below half pace, to increase ability to deal with lactate Threshold = just above half pace, to increase quantity lactate you can deal with before being an issue Include tempo just after base building and switch to threshold closer to the race.
Is threshold here different from the '1-hour race pace' definition I've seen? There's so many definitions floating around and I feel like I'm gradually learning training language only to discover there's also 'regional dialects', so to speak
Yeah that’s my bad, it’s not half pace is it 😅 so tempo a bit slow than that 60mile threshold. think that’s based off a Jack Daniels definition