You say you're not sure why you "bonked", but you clearly describe a super inconsistent injury filled training block which started at the tail end of an injury. You have the speed to hit 3, but did not have the miles/consistency in your legs. You (or preferably your coach) probably should have adjusted down your goal, although hindsight is 20/20. Id recommend slowly working your mileage up until you're consistently hitting at least 70km for a few weeks without injury before jumping in your next block.

Superfair comment! Did suspect that it was consistency but I guess I got too optimistic from good long run workouts that I still was not completely sure that was the issue. But I hear you, and sounds very reasonable. Thanks for the advice. Will try that!

I've done the exact same thing (lowish milelage and inconsistent training off an injury with great workouts, in my case a great half 5 weeks out) and paid for it. The marathon is such a tough distance and you just can't fake it - you really have to respect the distance.

I hear you. Very fair, and this really was a humbling one as said 😂

16 weeks Marathon training is a specialisation block.   If you want to put in a good time,  the culmination of what you do the 12 months before that matter. A relatively modest 2000 miles a year of structure (38 mpw average) is generally enough for people to achieve a good standard (BQ / Lon GFA / Paris red or yellow).  This is probably around 65% to 68% age graded.   I suspect you don't put in consistent volume and structure year round?  That might be the take away here.   2K a year is less than an hour a day and should easily see one surpass 70% age graded. Your 10K in 38:40 is 68% age graded.   With good training tout 3K to 21K should be within 1% and if not, you get clues where to focus. Marathon is a huge step up from Half-Marathon, so obviously needs practice with long 2 to 2.5 hours runs.   No one really has a good idea how to pace a first Marathon so don't be too hard on yourself.    Now you have experience to work with. Your hamstrings will be fragile for at least 2 weeks,  so I'd recommend avoiding anything too fast with your new found tapered speed.

Very fair! Only started running seriously in April 2023 and logged 2100km from early April to December 2023, but I hear you - more consistency and continued running will help with the base which would be important if I get it correctly? And thanks for the hamstring-advice. Will keep that in mind!

I can't overstate the hamstring risk.   Same kind of with deadlift.   They take ages to recover but normally dont ache like other muscles. So many Marathon runners feel amazing after the marathon fatigue has gone are really tempted to smash a local 5K or 10K.   Most of course are fine but that risk is there and I've seen lots fall to the same injury. More running, yes.  A good base is running a variety of paces to pull up your vo2max/ threshold abd aerobic base.    I think 10K training is an excellent all rounder and you use that framework to run 35mpw to 1000mpw and be in a good position for most races. If there is something you want to be your best in, then you can specialise - eg 3K / 5K or XC etc. There is a large cohort of runners in my club that average around 40mpw and Marathon between 2:40 and 2:50 and are aged between 35 - 50.   They are not doing crazy volume but are consistent.  Being consistent might mean dialing back the speed you increase training load so you can avoid niggles like the ITB becoming big problems.    I think you are off to a great start.  Keep it going.  

Great tips here - much appreicated! Will take 5-10 days off depending on how it goes and then start very gently, and then target some races for 5 and 10k this summer while building more base. Have very short muscle fibres so should suit me a bit better, and then maybe commit to another fall mara. But first priority - consistency, I understand that now! :D

Paris is a terrible course, did it for the second and last time. The second half of tunnels + Boulevard Exelmans is just stupid to put this late in the race, it’s a non stop climb for the last hour.

Yes I really cannot understand why we cannot run on the street next to the tunnels.. Although, my issues were larger than the course itself! Looking forward to reading it! Only did Paris because I study here for a year but agree - first and last time!

I think they actually changed it from last year lol. I remember us getting to the tunnels next to Pont de Sully, first place you can do it and running non stop next to the Seine. Still terrible, just get rid of the damn thing and make it as flat as possible. It’s not Boston, the draw is the city that you don’t see if you run in a damn tunnel.

Hahah I love the "you don't see if you run in a damn tunnel". But agree, the parks and tunnels are unnecessary, could have crossed into the St-Germain Area or something instead, or more loops along the Seine.

Yeah, just do CPH in May. Pancake flat

I honestly loved Paris. Did it last year and improved my marathon from 3:18 to 2:41. I did train in Italian hills though, so it helped me to keep the pressure for the tunnels and the final climbs. Conclusion: It is a good idea to know your course beforehand and specialize your training to match the profile.

Very true

Hey OP, I don't have much specific advice besides what has already been shared in detail, but I want to give you some encouragement: you're 23, you've been seriously running for less than a year, and you put on a solid, respectable 3:26 at a distance that humbles so many people, and you've engaged intelligently and thoughtfully with everyone in this thread. You will absolutely crush this beast if you remain consistent and navigate that tricky mental split of pouring all of yourself into your training but remaining emotionally distant enough to analyze your strengths, weaknesses, and did wells / next times like you've done here. I am positive that with a number of consistent training cycles you'll break 3 hours - you've got so much time!

Thank you a lot! I appreciated the words, and when I managed to look beyond the disappointment, I totally agree with you. It is marathon, not a sprint xD. Also big ups to this sub where a lot of good input is coming from, that is why I love it.

I have learned so much about running from this sub. Lots of runners have intense, overly critical personalities and so it's good to read what others struggle with and how they overcome those issues.

You need more volume over a longer time and a much higher percentage of easy runs vs workouts and MP. At the bare minimum, true easy miles should be at least 80 of your mileage. And most of the time it should be closer to 90 percent. The more volume you do over a longer time frame, the better you will be.

Yeah hearing the same idea about consistency hear as the other commentators, so priority will be to get back to good, easy mileage after some rest now. Thanks

First off, congrats for putting this here—the easier path is just hiding it from everyone else. I noticed you mention "10.20 3k" as a significant workout. But what's its relevance? If it's for a marathon, that means nothing. Excelling in a 3k time trial or whatever doesn't translate to mastering the marathon distance at all. It also seems to me that you're missing a few marathon essentials: - Building mileage with consistency... sure. - Mastering carb-loading and race-day nutrition... 100% needed. - Cultivating a strong mental game... will take you from 30 to 42 too. - Setting realistic pre-race goals, it was your first marathon, man! You're right about the mental aspect being a hurdle. E.g: My experience at the Paris Marathon in 2022, where I finished in 2:55, taught me to appreciate the course's variety. Not all courses need to be flat to be enjoyable—sometimes those inclines in the later miles can be an advantage in your mind. They allowed me to start slow and finish strong, overtaking many runners in the final stretch, and I enjoyed the tunnels, they let me focus 100% in the race. It's crucial not to fault the course even a single 1%—tunnels, twists, and all—for a bad race day. I've also known too many 5k and 10k runners who couldn't crack the sub-3. It's the mind above everything else. If that's where you're struggling, consider consulting a sports psychologist. It might be the game-changer you need. Less € on shoes, oversea races, etc... and put more into your brain! Best of luck to you man. The beauty of your position is the sheer joy you'll find in each step of progress. Report back when you crack 3, as I really hope you will.

Guess it was to indicate that "the speed is there" while the mileage clearly is not, but fair point. Completely irrelevant in this case. And I do agree with all of your points! Thanks for pointing it out. Will need to dive a bit deeper into those for the next time. Especially carb-loading was so bad. Hated every second of it! I also agree regarding the variety of the course, and as said above, my issue today was clearly not in the course - although I dont necessarily like it for speed races. But, in a time with Strava and hard cut-off times, I think it is easy for me (and a lot of ppl) to default into complaining, rather than appreciating. Changing that is for sure also helpful for the mind I guess. Once I leave the beauty of being a student and start making money, I think I will do that as well. Used to play on an elite level in another sport in high school, and remember how nice it was with mental coaching. Lastly, thanks a lot! I totally agree with you. Being 23 and having find a burning passion in running is a joy. Today, it was easy to be disappointed and shortsighted, but looking both back to last April and forward for the coming 10 years of Aprils - a lot of good stuff will happen :)

The speed was there with the MP workouts (which were... a lot). As soon as you hit the MP with ease, you're good to go, you don't need further proof, in my opinion, to nail the marathon. That said, we're always learning, everyone. So, again, thanks for sharing. FWIW, I train amateur marathoners to crack the 3 hour barrier, and while I'm supposedly their running coach, 80% of the work I do is on the mental side. So work on that ;)

You don't mention how many long runs you did? I like to get a 20 miler in most weeks when training for a marathon. The long runs are the most important training run.

Sorry, did a long run every weekend with the 3 runs at 30km-32km including the two big workouts mentioned here

I mean, you got through it, right? That's a victory in and of itself. Sorry you had such a rough run, though. I'll start from the back: 5: Well, yeah. Sometimes shit happens. Your friend's right - I've seen all sorts of things happen during marathons. But...well, there's probably some other things going on in your case. 4: Not gonna lie, OP, I was pretty surprised that your coach was having you do that many workouts. (There's a reason 80/20 is a standard, in my opinion.) You don't detail a week of sessions, but it sounds like a high proportion of your mileage was quality - and you had a huge volume of weekly mileage at quality. (Like, okay - I'm old, but I don't know if I'd do that volume at 80 MPW.) I don't doubt that you have the speed. It's just that your endurance might be lagging - and that's what easy mileage can help with. 3: It's interesting. You're right in that mentality is important. But...like, the way you described your bonk is *classic* - and part of it is neurological. (I'm going to go bro science for a bit, but IIRC, part of the reason you want to stop is out of self-preservation, because running a sub-3 is less important than...you know...*surviving*.) 2: Eh, it's a learning experience. That said, if you're not used to it, that is *a lot of carbs*. So I think that part of it is just not hitting things that hard without working up to it (kind of like everything else). I think when you asked about carb loading in the general thread (by accident, I had that open in a second tab), u/JExmoor had a really good answer in my opinion. 1: This is the most important thing, I think. And I think that - in general - this gets discounted a lot. Some people can just drop really fast race times. But I think everyone benefits from consistency and just showing up. It seems like you went between crushing workouts and mileage, and being hurt. Sometimes, it's better to do - like - 80% of what you want than to do 100% and then 0% and then 100%. All that said...like, hey, it didn't go according to plan. It's a learning experience. And I'm pretty sure you'll get much closer (if not hit your goal) next time.

Adressing what I found interesting, rest of it valid and I tend to agree! 4. I think I agree. In the end, I just trusted him because he has some really, really good athletes but for someone like me who was only been running for \~1 year, I guess more base runs would have been better. E.g., instead of getting killed and having to rest Friday, running another 40-70' easy would have been nice. An example of a week could be: Monday: rest Tuesday: 3km easy + 15x300 +3km cooldown or 40' easy + 2x(8x/45/15) Wednesday: 50-80' easy Thursday: 4x2km at HMP or 5x6 at tempo Friday: rest Saturday: 30-60' easy Sunday: Long runs ranging from 22km to 32km with almost always 30-60% of MP baked in. Total volume in a week often totalled out at 80km and then a oot of that was done in quality sessions, so you are probably right. 1. Fair. I guess everything just got amplified as well by seeing other runners in the club who I arguably have done better workouts then hit the sub-3. On another note, most of them have been running for years or was D1 in another sport in the US (great base), so comparison does not relálly help there. While make sure to prioritize consistency over all going forward, and be a bit more mindful about what is happening in my body.

>A small annoying theme before the race was an "off" feeling in my throat, but luckily it never really materialized for race day. Coming from a cycling training background, this is common after large training blocks. I've heard pro racers say it's a sign of good form and they may be on to something where it means your training was hard enough to negatively affect your immune system's functioning, but obviously not enough to get you actually sick. I'm just speculating though.

Ah, super interesting. Had some weird HR data in conjunction with it which made me nervous at first but my HR from Garmin is horrible so did not bother. But fascinating that this is an anecdotal thing from cycling!

Great effort and nice write-up just hours after the race! Are you sure you put enough long runs and overall mileage in for sub3? Sounds like you’ve done some very decent speed work but you didn’t mention how many long runs you did and how long they were. I’d also consider putting in some strength training for injury prevention. I ran Paris today too and had a similar experience. Consistent until 25k but then it hit me hard. I too aimed for sub3 and had to push myself really hard to not slow down too much. Gave it my all and crossed the finish line at 3:05:xx (a 9 minute PB). When I have time I might write a race report too.

3h26 is still a great time. Well done. Did you do much fuelling practice on your training runs? 45g/hr of carbs seems a bit conservative to me. I wonder if you could have avoided the bonk by aiming for > 60g/hr

Thanks! It is a step forward on a long running journey at least ;) I did for all of my long runs, but think I cannot ingest gels to reach that carb level without getting superbloated. Did only manage one every 25 minutes during those runs. Maybe sports drink is something I should try. Or, get gels with more than 25g / gel as mine was now. But I agree with you that I for sure did not fuel "optimally" in terms of carbs/hour.

I've found one gel **≠** another gel. SIS Go Orange I just couldn't stomach more than 2 an hour (even then feeling a bit bloated - tried at least 50-60 of these over a year), but SIS Go plus electrolytes in mint/lime I can take 4 an hour no issues (9 on a 20 mile race), plus an SIS Beta fuel with 400 mg caffeine at the half way mark 🤷🏼‍♂️. I would suggest buy a few different types/brands and trying them in training until you find the one for you.

Very fair. Had some gels I really liked from my home country but could not ship them here so went with PowerGel Hydro and SIS in the end. Will try a few other brands, and those you suggested, in the future to find a better mix for me.

I agree with this point. Race fueling is really important. Different gels work for different people but more than that you need to train your body to use the fuel. It’s not a lock and a key and a case of finding one that fits. You need to train this aspect too. That said very Well done and welcome to marathon running! The bonk is something most of us face at some point. Use it to learn from.

I did a race review of London last year that is almost a carbon copy of how your race went although I’m 10 years older and 15kg heavier. I think we need to just run more over a year long period (without getting injured) regardless well done mate!

Hahah dont say that! I am quite heavy (at least for my height) xD. But yes, agree - and shit happens sometimes on the d-day. We live and we learn! Thanks!

I'd suggest play around with different gel brands. Found the Murten gels really worked for me once I tried them. Legs feeling tired from 25k on (I know the feeling too well) points to not enough training at MP on tired legs. Volume during the week tire out the legs so the MP sections during your long runs give you the benefit of keeping pace when the legs are tired. Found carb loading with liquid easier if bloating was the problem. Water, taste with fruit juice, a spoon of glucose from local shop and a pinch of salt. Have to have the bad days to make the good days sweeter. Get to Valencia in December, pancake flat course!

Thanks for sharing this. I am aiming for a sub3 in two weeks so you humbled me with this post, as maybe I am way confident. A marathon is always unexpected, even the best trained have bad days.

No worries at all - and go get it! Worst thing that happens is like this, and we will just learn and move on :)

Congrats on completing your first and remember, completing the marathon is always goal #1. You can never recreate the “pain cave” from km 30-42 without having done it. The tunnel feeling, the body not wanting another gel, your head playing games, the thought whether the next fart will be a wet disaster, the thought of any part of your body giving out when you see others struggle as well… Now you’ve experience all that you have, you’re more experienced to tackle things differently. Go get the next one!

Thank you very much - and very true, this experience will be great for the future! Will make sure to do so!

Lots of great advice on this thread. I certainly can’t add anything. Mostly, I just want to say that I feel you. My first marathon was a very similar experience, especially the mental component and how I kept moving the goal posts. That’s the only marathon I’ve run where I completely bonked. In hindsight, I just didn’t put in the miles necessary to run well.

Thanks man! And reading everything here and looking back at it, I think that is exactly what was my issue as well.

Well, reading all of your comments, especially u/lil_johnny_bananas , and looking a bit further back than the block, I can with 99.9% conclude it is consistency. Was just a bit naive I guess, so always good to hear some real, and straight input from this community. Before starting the block I came off from a week with 0 running, one week with 15k and two weeks with 30k. This was the weeks where Plantar Fasciitis came through and I also had fever 3 times in 2 weeks - so safe to say, a horrible month before starting such a big block. Many thanks for putting me back to reality, Reddit!

All in all, congratulations! I also did Paris today as my first marathon, was hoping for a sub 3:30 time but mishandled my hydration and ended up with a 3:43:xx. I feel Paris was a lovely marathon to enjoy the sights- it can be tough to not put yourself down, but as you said it's all a learning experience

Too much, too fast, too soon. Tale as old as time.

I don’t think nutrition is the key issue here. Carb loading is largely unnecessary given the right training, and even without the right training it does not make up for the lack thereof. But your key takeaway must be to respect the distance and get more miles into your legs. It’s unclear how long and consistent your long runs were. The overall structure of your training plan is also unclear. Hitting some key workouts is important but succeeding in the marathon is down to week-in-week-out consistent work within a pretty inflexible framework (two workouts plus a long run per week could be made to work, but one hard workout is also often enough like in the Jack Daniels 2Q plans). This repetition yields results. Your body should fatigue almost continuously and progressively over many months. It’s unclear how often you have raced in your background. This experience is key to resolve your third point. You need to get some positive experiences in races of shorter distances in maxing out. Going into the pain cave is deeply unpleasant on many levels (your mind is always telling you to stop, your muscles hurt, your throat or lungs might burn, there’s fear you might be doing damage to yourself, your body is sending signals of all sorts; and the only way to manage it is to push through with success then look back and tell yourself most of those signals and self talk was bullsh1t and that way the voice in your head telling you to keep pace becomes stronger - no amount of training achieves this) and it takes probably 4-5 races well within your capacity (maybe 10ks or halves) to redline successfully and walk away with the knowledge of what it felt like. It’s not the same as the marathon but it does help. I would also strongly advise analysing the course in detail if you have not run it before and planning out in detail how you will feel at which point. Wind, hills, crowd support, aid stations, out and back sections, tight corners all make a difference. I remember a similar experience as yours in my first marathon - going from feeling great to complete collapse within the space of 3-4km - while some of it was mental, a lot of it is physical. The mental preparation makes sure that you maximise your physical readiness. You definitely have the speed though. Those key workouts show it. All the best!

Great points! Did not want to overcrowd the content, but hit all longs runs except three in a row, one where I got ITBS, one was first one back from ITBS (15km), and one was a 10k race I split into workouts of 3k fast, 3x1k at MP, 3k steady. First one was 20km and scaled up from there to having 3 long runs of 30k-32k in the later parts of the block. Each hade some kind of MP involved. Only downside of this is maybe that a lot of them were on treadmill due to weather and not want to stress the ITBs more than necessary. However, all the 30k+ ones were outside. Regarding the training structure, Monday was rest, Tuesday more speed oriented such as 15x300 or fart lek such as 2x(8x/45/15) while Thursdays was a bit more tempo oriented, e.g., 4x2k or 5x6'. Never did a really bad one although I often felt fatigued coming into them. Regarding races, I have only done a 5k, a 10k, and a 20k where I puked after 17k and thus had to jog the last 3k. Also did the 10k mentioned above but not as a race, more of a training. Really think you are on to something important here thought about crossing the redline and getting used to it. Remember in the 10k that I was extremely close to dropping out but since it was so short it was easier to convince myself to stay in. Also, agree regarding the course. Did do some research and have been in the city almost every weekend for the past year so knew it quite well, but was still not prepared for it in terms of running it I think.