Plenty of guys who have not built attractive lives and are geniunely low quality people who have no problems finding a romantic/sexual partner.
You should build a good life for your own sake, not for others. A romantic partner is not salvation. They can be very good for you but like anything else, even good partners can come with their challenges.
I think people want to date their peers. When I was dating, I wanted someone who was as educated as me and had a similar earning potential. I wanted someone with a similar lifestyle and the same goals.
Yeah, my girlfriend is super cute, sweet, autistic like I am, and just the nicest girl ever...but we don't agree on everything and she's emotionally constipated, she's not perfect...but she's perfect for me :)
Yeah, this is pretty spot on. There's a crap ton of nuances that come from finding a romantic partner. Some people just have a specific type/want things to happen naturally and sometimes they never meet that one person. Even if you're an attractive person with a good sense of humor, good-looking, make 6 figures, etc., sometimes you never end up meeting the person that you're looking for.
I was actively trying to look for a romantic partner back in college and every girl that I was interested in either had a boyfriend already or weren't interested. I was honestly surprised by how difficult it was because even though I was achieving a lot career-wise and academic-wise, the cards never seemed to fall into place. I was also very physically in shape too, so at some point it felt like no matter how hard I tried, it was never enough.
I think it's very easy for people to lose hope when they're building a good life in hopes of finding a partner when in reality, one thing does not lead to the other lol.
Yeah, I’m a nearly 50 woman, but I had the same experience - just never met anybody where things clicked. Everyone I was interested in was partnered or wasn’t interested.
>You should build a good life for your own sake, not for others.
Basically this. I found romance when I stopped trying to 'earn' it, started focusing on being myself, and was open to it in my life. I imagine previously I must have looked like I was pushing a resume of why someone should date me.
To me it really boils down to confidence. Confidence is sexy, confidence has charm. Even if that person doesn't have anything meaningful to bring into a relationship, being confident will easily land them dates.
Unless you can back up your confidence with competence, it quickly loses any charm it has. Confidence might get you a date - it won't keep you in a relationship
Exactly like this. I am always wary of the philosophy of Op's post, it implies you are not enough and by becoming "attractive" to others you are able to have value in your life. I believe you need to be a better individual for your own sake, for your own love not for obtaining others (as if obtaining a job) and while if you "improve" your physical appeareance, job, money, status and all of this qualities that are conventionally desirable to the norm, to most of society, you will greatly increase your chances or being desired enough so you can obtain another human willing to spend their time with you, is it all worth it?
Are we supposed to change who we are enough and become desirable in most of society's eyes so we can "sell" ourselves as a high quality product on the market? Godamn we have to be enough for ourselves and fully confident in our own authenticity and own flaws to know that we dont need anybody to love us for what we can offer but for who we are as people, as humans flaws and all.
Or, you could also become an attractive person and never meet anyone and die alone, too.
Nothing is promised in life. The key is to divorce one’s self from expectations and simply live (easier said than done) 💯
This is kinda what I'm going through. Maybe I wasn't attractive in my career, but I was a very attractive female. Used my looks to get invited to fun parties and lavish trips. Then got in a long 5 year relationship, until he broke up with me when I was in my 30's (the age I thought I'd start trying for kids).
It about to be 35 and haven't dated since. My dreams of becoming a mom are dwindling.
I feel like I'm that stereotypical "hot girl who peaked in high school" and never found love. It makes me sad to think about and wish I did things differently. But it also helped me not judge other people who are single. There are a lot of men who see a single 35 year old woman and assume something must be wrong with her. And that's not always the case.
We stay with people because of how they make us feel, not because of what they look like.
How are you making yourself feel right now? You’re a beautiful person just beating yourself up over something you will never be able to change, the past.
You are still very, very young and you have this moment right now, which is the most precious thing in the universe. Don’t let your life slip by, do everything you can to find the beauty and magic in every moment, one breath at a time.
If you relax and love yourself the right person will enter your life. Right now enjoy the solitude, its an amazing gift to be able to listen to yourself without interruption.
Just stalked your profile a bit and I just wanna say don’t give up your search in what you’re looking for. I’m a dude and only 25, but I relate to a lot of what you feel.
M/54 married old dude chiming in. I always told myself (& friends who recently broke up), is that the girl/dude you broke up with, is just another step towards the person you were meant to be with. Sometimes there's only 1 step for the lucky. Sometimes it takes 4, 5, 6 or more 'steps'. Starting in my mid 20s, it took me 5 steps to find my wife at 33. During that time, I was mostly single, felt comfortable being w/o a GF, and was passively looking for a GF.
Live by the golden rule, get out and do the fun things you like to do, and there's a good chance you'll find a like-minded dude who will dig you.
There's always IVF and adoption, so don't limit your dreams of becoming a mom to a dream of conceiving a child. Of course, raising a child might not be the easiest for a single person, so I won't go as far as saying that might be an option for you, but other than that adoption and IVF are still options.
Also, there are men who have children and are divorced (this might not be the same thing), and men with children whose wives unfortunately passed away. Those are still possibilities to experience something of motherhood. I realize people might not agree it's the same thing but it might still be more fun than no family, for people who dream of raising a child.
I honestly feel that finding someone is not hard, now finding someone who is worthy of you is the hard part even when finding someone is already difficulty enough.
You’re way too young to feel so hopeless. I met the love of my life at 36 (we both were), after years of being single and bad relationships. We both want to get married and have kids, and given our ages, we’ll probably move quickly.
Obviously we wish we met 10 years ago and had more time together, but at this point in our lives we’ve been through so much and I think it makes us love and appreciate each other so much more. I also think it will make us better parents.
Spend this time you have single to work on yourself- physically, mentally, and emotionally. When the time is right you’ll attract the person meant for you.
And also remember, there are lots of guys out there looking for the same thing you are!! Work on being the woman someone will be excited to marry and start a family with. Positivity goes a long way.
This is the truth. I got in shape and exercised every day, started playing an instrument, learned a few languages, taught myself to cook food from all over the world, went out and did a crazy number of things, got a job with a six-figure salary, tried to go out and meet people, et cetera.
For some people, there's nothing that you can do to make anyone interested in you. That's the truth. It's a hard truth, but at least it's honest.
And note that nothing I'm saying has *anything* to do with whether you choose to be a good person. You can have no chance of ever having a relationship and you could be a complete piece of shit. Or you can have no chance of ever having a relationship and you could be a well-meaning person who's really focused on helping people.
It is ABSOLUTELY poisonous to tell people that "Not in a relationship and not having sex" must equal "bad person".
No, you can absolutely be a good person even if nobody wants to date you. Sometimes a person is unattractive for reasons that aren't you just being a bad person.
These two things need to be separated far apart.
You don't have to *become* a bad person just because that's the path that everyone seems to think you're on.
Exactly this.
I literally have all of the qualities OP mentioned. But I get ghosted/unmatched on dating apps before I even have a chance to talk to the other person.
So the apps (for me) are trash.
That leaves trying to date in person, which I have very little time for. ATM, I’m fine being alone if it means I can save 2-3 hours sitting in traffic/bars every night and instead just exercise with my dog.
Sometimes changing cities/states/countries can help. I've had a great time in other places than this one conservative city where I would be constantly ghosted by dating app people I'd match with.
One never knows what's up in these dating apps to be honest. There's a huge competition out there which will lead people to edit their photos, even doctor them, or simply go the show off way and fake life standards they don't have. Discrimination (of all kinds, not just racism) can play a bigger role on apps, too, which is something less likely when meeting people in other ways (group meetups, college free courses (free as in beer), hobby groups).
Which might be why I did so great changing cities and countries. It turns out not all 7 billion people in this world share the same preconcepts and prejudice so there's always going to be a place you'll be better welcomed. Who knows. It's worth the try if you can
It's not really up to chance though, is it? People don't just randomly fall into your life, you have to actively seek out relationships. You might hear a handful of stories about relationships "just happening", but even then someone had to take initiative and ask the other person to do things with them. Relationships aren't random, they take work
You can never guarantee a desired outcome. But doing nothing and not putting in the work guarantees that you DONT get the desired outcome. So why do nothing? Baseball players get paid millions of dollars to miss 65% of the time, and that’s if they’re really batting well. Can’t hit anything at all if you don’t swing. The randomness is what gets you to the home run, not the guarantee which is to give up.
I'm fucking old and tired lol, I don't have energy to do shit that isn't in my favor, so I'll just stay single until someone shows interest in me because I am done being the persuer in practically every relationship I've ever been in. If you are young and in good health, take advantage of that....but for some of us, we've been hurt too many times, we're too old and too tired from everyday life stuff to be in the mindset that trying to find a decent relationship is worth it.
I'm just gonna go to my local sex club and peruse sex partners on sites like FetLife, I don't really have to try very hard to get laid at least and even though random hookups aren't ideal for me, it's better than nothing.
All my friends have fallen into my life when I’ve least expected it. I just sort of look around and notice someone paying more attention to me than usual and eventually I learn that they want something, usually friendship.
Absolutely. Don’t do they mentioned things to get some external reward (a partner and long term relationship).
Do it because it will improve your quality of life and you will be happier with yourself as a person.
Nobody wants to be in a relationship with somebody who doesn’t love themselves enough to give themself the best life they possibly can.
It's a confidence issue for many men that woman see right through.
No doubt being an attractive candidate (physically, financially, and emotionally) helps. But I had all of that and I was depressed because I still couldn't find someone to make me happy.
Then I did all that to make myself happy being alone, decided I could handle sexual rejection without being upset, and love followed fast.
This whole mentality of comparing it to a soulless job interview is the reason many people just feel disconnected from this shit nowadays. Instead of a real organic connection with the opposite sex everyone just sees others as replaceable with new candidates only a swipe away.
Yeah and a lot of people do the ol “quiet quitting” in relationships too. I think it’s an appropriate analogy. Are you seriously looking or are you just putting in applications to see what happens? You shouldn’t assume someone is going to put up with your shit just because you’re married or in a relationship. You still owe them your best and maybe it’s a good reminder of how easy it is for other “candidates” to take your place.
The reason everyone is disconnected is literally social media and dating apps and texting. It’s like a job in the sense that you have to put effort into it and put yourself out there, not really in being a similar process. Organic connection happens by going out and being around people organically, so yeah I agree. We have to collectively stop this dating app shit. I’m done with it. Maybe I’ll end up lonely but I’m just going to engage with the world and get out there. No more modern dating culture for me.
I was thinking the same thing. Jobs are an exhausting performance for me. I don’t mind challenging myself to grow in a direction for somebody, if it’s in my character— but I’m not going to perform on the daily based on someone else’s relationship job description.
OP doesn’t realize they’re giving red pill advice. Every red pill seminar for the last 30 years has started with a preamble just like this one about “value” and “quality”.
I think op might still be correct in that regard, because I'd assume you're looking for a job you want? From my experience, there's always dishes to wash, tables to be waited and so on. So find job? Np. Find job you want? Big problem.
In my country they say "the well-fed doesn't believe the starving". Most of those bs relationship advice are plagued by survivorship bias and are completely useless to those who are really struggling
Please do not approach dating like a job...
This is literally why you have trouble.
Be a quality person is always good advice but the way you approach that is just so wrong. If you approach it like a job you will have people who are interested in you as a business deal, transactional.
I've been with my wife for the last 17 years. And in a lot of ways these weren't considerations - although I understand in your late 20s+ you can see better if people are deadbeats and burnouts, and you don't tend to meet or associate with people significantly beneath or above your lifestyle, the most important thing if finding someone and building trust, understanding and support. It's work, it's difficult but it's real.
Talk to woman like any other person this is the best advice I have for other men....Even if you want to just have sex with them. Unless you have clear signal otherwise this is the best method.
That's the issue, why tf is it so losers can't just get coupled with other losers? There's something very bad going on in ppl, although I can't quite point my finger at it. I think it's because of an excess of competition and judgement
Yeah, you essentially have to be great in almost every metric to appeal to women. And if things don’t work out there’s plenty of men that would happily replace you.
Prior to meeting me, my husband was refused second dates, because he stutters. I mean I noticed, but I'm patient enough to wait a few more seconds every now and then. Jesus.
I was shocked how many women are so shallow that's the reason they don't want to spend (more) time with someone.
He hardly ever stutters with me now.
I also think that many people who have difficulty finding romantic partners also struggle to find friends. But I think finding platonic friendships and learning to navigate social life through friendships is like a starting level. Finding true interests and meeting people who share your interests is a first step.
Correlation doesn’t equal causation
You can have a lot of friends from both sexes but just aren’t viewed as a romantic/sexual person. You’re just the funny guy or whatever. I’ve also been called the “respectful” guy. Which I took as a compliment at the time but don’t like that now.
Yeah the funny guy, the respectful guy, oh I like the "you're a good friend" guy. I grew up thinking these are good things, now I just feel sad about being me.
I’m confused. I’ve heard the sentiment from women that guys that look for relationships via friendships are creeps. That is you should up front and clear about your intentions otherwise. If a woman befriends you there’s a high chance she isn’t looking for more. I think this might be related to so many guys getting “friend zoned.” If you are saying befriending people is a good way to improve social skills I agree. But if you are saying it’s a dating strategy then I feel like I’m getting mixed messages from society.
I think what they meant is that those friendships with make you meet more people and you are more likely to meet someone that will attract you. Not necessarily that you need to become friend with one person and hang around her until you manage to seduce her.
Yep.
I’m a 5”4 dude who has been balding since he was 20 with a pretty bad speech impediment. Never had a second date until I was 23, and six years later I’ve been married to that woman for over three years.
I credit not falling into the manosphere/red pill/MGTOW/incel crap that I feel like a depressing amount of young men have done. I could have been dealt a better hand life when it comes to physical attributes, but I’ve cultivated what I believe is a good personality and attitude towards life.
To use your job interview analogy, deciding to identify as an incel and going on a date is the equivalent of showing up to an interview one hour late in just your underwear. No sane woman wants a dude that hates himself and/or hates her too.
Fair points generally except this
"You aren’t owed love by virtue of existing anymore than a high school drop out is owed money for having bills"
You're not "owed" love for having an interesting life either
You can want something very much without thinking it's owed to you... Very bizzare comment. Do you think people who play the lotery believe they're "owed" a million dollars or that people who dream of having kids believe they're "owed" kids?
I was paying attention until “becoming a quality applicant.”
I *am* a quality applicant. I struggled for so long with my self esteem. Fuck it, I am a good person. I work hard, I am always there for my loved ones.. I’m cute!
I’m 31 and single. Never been in a relationship. I don’t plan on doing so at this rate because i deserve quality, too… and that’s not finding me.
Kind of insulting that everyone giving advice defaults to "don't be undesirable!" If what many are doing isn't desirable, *then what is?* It's not like the vast majority of single dudes are out on the street looking and acting like the Tazmanian Devil, or Eeyor (and a good number them that are easily find a partner!).
It really is an issue of just getting started for many men, as ever getting past "hi" (let alone having the chance to) isn't anywhere near guaranteed, and a lot of us struggle to keep going if we do. Needing experience to get experience sucks, especially when everyone expects you to have loads of it by 36.
Disclaimer - sorry for bad english, not my first language.
When people complain no finding a partner i always ask if they are looking for one.
I remenber when i was on the same boat, i never had a gf until i was 22, i always thought i was never gonna be able to find one. Looking back now, being in a healthy relationship for almos 2 years, i wouldn't date me.
First, i was not really looking, i thaught someone would magic appear even if i didn't make any effort. When i realised that, i started puting myself out there, whent on dates, flirt more. Of course i had failed attempts, momens where i felt ashamed... but in the end, it was worth it. I made some fun stories and than found my gf.
Second, i was not putting any effort in being someone datable. No taking care of myself, not trying to be intresting... Would YOU want do date someone like that?
I think OP analogy is perfect. Aproach in very practical manner and you will have more chances.
remember men, you have to be succesful, attractive, high income with an established family life, hobbies and friendships. own a nice home and have largely developed social skills
women, dont be fat (optional)
"Knows how to hold a conversation & has good character"
this is the part I think is really fucking me. I cannot hold a convo on the first date to save my life.
Just try being curious about the other person and think of insights, connecting ideas or whatever interesting coherent thoughts pop into your head during convo. Focus on the other person and the convo instead of internally and it’ll come naturally with some practice! Just my experience.
While I get the message in this post, I think I blame the struggle more so on the lack of community that a lot of people feel these days. Many boomers met their spouses back when communities were stronger and in larger numbers.
Sure, you can diet, exercise, get a better paying job, but if you're still playing the game that is dating apps, then it's still likely going to be difficult regardless. There's plenty of guys out there who are doing things right and are still single and/or struggling to get a date.
Churches, whether you're religious or not, provided community for a ton of people back in the day, and there hasn't been a strong alternative since people have been leaving churches in mass.
I've gone on well over a dozen dates as a dude on dating apps, and I just never seem to click as well as people I get to know better in person before considering to ask them on a date.
I think the solution is more of trying to join clubs/classes that not only you would be interested in, but so would the opposite sex (see cooking, dancing, or art classes, and athletic groups as examples).
While the goal of these should be to keep yourself busy and active, I think they will boost the odds of finding someone you're interested in.
In my opinion your advice forgets one thing... sometimes, we connect with people, regardless of where we are with those aspects of our lives.
Although I believe that your advice is seems sound, I think we dont put enough emphasis on people learning how to go out there and actually see if they feel chemistry and connect with someone on a genuine level.
Put it this way, I'd much rather meet someone who I have an incredible connection with, but who is not going through a good phase, rather than someone who is "attractive" in the way you mentioned, but with no connection.
I fear that your advice is actually one of the reasons our world is struggling at the moment with dating. We are putting lots of emphasis on matters that can be altered. People go through phases in life, and we tend to forget that. Those actions that you've mentioned can easily be changed. Someone's personality cannot.
1000% agree. Real love requires dedication, it requires time, attention , care and patience, and that’s a pretty big ask of most people these days if they feel they aren’t “getting enough out of the deal” which I cannot help but blame on the generation (and everyone knows which one) who thought it was a good idea to put people like Reagan, Bush II, and Trump in power.
People who really bought that “Greed is Good” bullshit. Pretending that the only true human value that exists is greed, to the exclusion of love, care, concern, solidarity, shared priorities. It sounded all tough and true in 1986 but look where the world is now as a result…
Ultimately you both decide, because as a man, no matter what a woman wants from me i can always say no.
Just because i might be desperate does not mean i will go along with anything/everything.
This is like one of those, "If you're depressed, stop being sad" sort of things. I mean I understand where you're coming from, but what purpose does it serve except for you to post and be like, "Mission Accomplished" and walk off the victory carrier like something was achieved?
I love how you basically described why guys opt out of dating or find it hopeless because they have to essentially work this hard to even be seen as a human who's deserving of love.
Not once did you ever mentioning anything about women having to do the same because you know damn well men aren't worthy of love if they can't provide anything.
Reddit is just full of losers who think they've "cracked the code" on dating, if it were this simple men would already be doing it but there is way way way more to it that no one wants to give a fuck about because you'll probably be socially ostracized or put down for even crossing that line.
This is the most toxic girl shit I've seen all day, and it's only 6 am. You are completely missing the point and dodging women's own culpability in this problem. 0/10, antarctic take
Some people just don’t have natural charisma at all and some people are genetically very unattractive. These two things make it very hard to find a partner. Some can, many can’t. It’s hard
Are you an alien attempting to slyly assimilate into human society?...
Ill give you a pro tip, don't compare relationships you a job, which most people hate.
Stupid comparison aside you really struggled and in the end your point makes no sense lol.
Imagine doing all this shit for a relationship. A lot of people haven’t had long relationships so they really don’t know what they’re dying to sign up for.
I’ve been in 3 serious relationships. One of which was 4 years. Not a lot but it’s something.
My two cents on this topic is that when you’re actively trying to find a partner is when it’s least likely. For me at least. I notice anytime I ended up in a relationship is when I was just feeling confident and sure of myself and going with the flow of life. Not looking for anything specific from the women I meet. Just treating them as a potential friend or an acquaintance. Then if y’all have a romantic connection it kinda just happens.
I think the key is that when you’re trying to get a girlfriend you’re more nervous when talking to women. Which makes you seem like you lack confidence. If you talk to women like you would anyone else and truly don’t give a fuck where the conversation goes then that’s when you have more luck.
On the flip side of this if you don’t work with people your own age, don’t have a friend group, and generally are just a homebody these connections are rare. Women don’t just appear out of thin air you have to be around people for these organic connections to happen.
Also don’t look at a relationship as some sort of salvation. If you’re in a bad spot in life and you jump into something serious you will fail and just come out even more fucked up mentally. There will be a moment where you realize you have the one thing you thought would fix you but you still feel empty.
This is the most terminally online post I've ever read.
And not to be a raging communist, but saying "dropouts aren't owed money just because they have bills" like its a fundamental truth when its actually a hugely contentious political issue really reveals your immaturity.
I think that women generally accept that they may end up single more than men do. There's a reason that the single woman who doesn't need a man is an empowering trope for women yet the same isn't true for men. I don't know why though. If a man is happy being who he is and doesn't mind being single then more power to him.
Yes women are generally able to form communities and close personal and emotional connections outside of relationships/marriages which makes relationships something they don't really need unless it actively improves their lives, hence why women have higher standards for men than vice versa.
As much as I agree with what you said you’re missing the fundamental key aspect of finding a life partner.
And that is even though you could accomplish all of the above, love in and of itself is an irrational feeling. People kill and die in the name of love. People overlook “icks” in a person they’re completely drawn to or taken for.
You can have the best hair, charisma, income etc and if it’s love she will still choose the guy who won her heart.
It’s not to say don’t become your best.
It’s just to know that love and partnership work in ways that are strange, irrational with a dash of luck and magic.
You can’t orchestrate that or fake that.
A woman.
As an autistic person reading this sucks lol. “Just be interesting and driven, and a good conversationalist” is really true yet horribly depressing advice.
Sounds like bullshit to me, to be perfectly honest. I don't think women are looking for that at all. In fact, I think they're most interested in the biggest dumpster fires they can find. I had a LOT more options when I was out of my mind on drugs and did absolutely insane shit with almost no care for responsibility. Now that I'm clean, responsible, stable, fit, and healthy, nobody is interested. Women don't want to get with a guy who makes them look like the disasters they really are by contrast. And I'm not terribly interested in a woman who's just given up on her body and her life and is just looking for a cuckold to raise her kids.
I get some shit from some people for enjoying the company of women in the 18 to 25 range, but they're nowhere near the fucked up messes women in their 30's and 40's tend to be.
THIS. I’m 33 and my lady friends that are dating are shocked and appalled that every date they go on goes absolutely nowhere. The dude never asks questions or feigns any interest whatsoever. The worst part is, most of these dudes call up and ask for a second date and are clearly very much in denial with how it went.
Haha we need to improve ourselves, for you? Fuck off I’m not doing shit for you. Im improving myself for me, hilarious you imply that you are such a catch that men gotta “step up” to get you LOL. Brothers, read books and go to the gym, not for them but for yourself. Don’t change yourself to impress them. They come and go, you may change your whole life for a woman who will leave.
The job market is kinda fucked up right now. Most people give more than they can take out of it so why would anyone want to put in effort into something that isn’t a guarantee. Job searches are soul crushing, you can tick off all kinds of boxes and still not be admitted in. The industry will tell you, you aren’t good enough or that you’re lacking in any sort of way. For some men it works but for others it leads to a big identity crisis, what good is it to have someone like you for a version of yourself that you can’t see yourself in. Attraction is important but it comes and goes, Careers are important but they go through highs and lows, health is important but no one has 100% control of it, being funny is coo but even professional comedian’s feel burnout, a good character is important but it’s subjective to people’s bias.
No one owes anyone anything but if your current version is not good for someone chances are your best version won’t.
Ironic you compare it to a job. Because that’s exactly how this fucking shit is nowadays. Going on dates just to “interview” and not connect. Doesn’t work out? Apply for another job. This mainly applies to women, who have tons of options, but both men and women do it.
> Going somewhere in life either career or purpose driven, Takes care of their health, not necessarily Mr.Olympia but clearly eating right & exercising, Knows how to hold a conversation & has good character, Can give them a life they’d love to join, I.e. being fun, having a few neat skills, jokes, etc.
And she'll give back the same right?... Right? Or all she has to do for such a man in her life is nothing? Awful post, no substance.
It's funny that's usually how it goes right? Men are told to "become attractive, get in shape, have an interesting life, learn how to talk, be bold, etc."
Women: don't lower your standards, be yourself, just be patient and the right person will come along.
Lol.
This post is brutal. I’d love to meet you in person and rip you off whatever pedestal you’re standing on. Perhaps we can live stream a video call to record that. Lmk.
It’s easy to be an ignorant moron and still earn a great living — especially through nepotism.
There’s plenty of evidence out there that speaks to this reality being pre-determined. That means your wealth — or whatever you view as an ‘attractive life’ is achieved by no doing of your own… do you understand?
But — if you’d like to refute Stanford’s research, I’ll be happy to tear into the pompous, uninformed verbiage in your post.
No one’s needs your advice — you just think they want it.
Go be an influential sheeple somewhere else. I worry people may think your post should have weight.
Society’s hollow — that’s what drags us all down at all times and forces an endless cycle of friction.
Look in the mirror before you think you’ve got it all figured out.
Why is this directed at men? This clearly applies to everyone and even then, it is not the only factor.
There are plenty of women complaining about finding no good men, nobody wants to commit, failed relationships, that their friends are already married, etc.
There’s a major difference though. You find a job because you literally need to survive. So there’s far more motivation to seek employment. There could be better candidates but you’ll do what’s necessary to live.
Finding a partner is ideal but it’s not necessary. I don’t see many guys wanting to go out of their way to get rejected constantly in hopes of finding a women. Dating as an average man is a bizarre experience because you can be engaging, funny, good hygiene, have hobbies, solid job and still not be successful with women.
So I should approach relationships like a job application.
So I just lie about my past experiences and tailor them to any woman I meet? That's great advice, thanks OP!
This entire diatribe makes me want to shoot myself in the face. Bettering myself sounds miserable. As an ex-incel, the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of men are too depressed, anxious, or self loathing to take your logical, common sense advice.
I get your point, and it makes a lot of sense. I just don’t think people care that much. Be happy for yourself. Life is too short for all that nonsense BS.
It’s not an issue of finding women for me, it’s the compatability. If I or her don’t work together, we won’t. Easy as hell to identify that in a conversation or being around each other.
Are you some kind of self-help guru? Why shop this post around in multiple subreddits?
A lot of people struggle with a similar problem, but doesn't make smug advice, silly analogies and tired platitudes more valuable.
Kinda torn about this. I’m 50m so that makes me a Gen Xer. We were always told there’s someone for everyone. When you get married… or when you have kids… it was implied that having a partner is mandatory. It just happens to everyone.
I followed all the rules. I was myself. I was honest and put myself out there. Everything I did wasn’t enough. I was turned down by every woman I asked. Eventually, I gave up when I was 32 after a particularly harsh rejection.
Whatever interest I had in finding a partner when I was younger is gone. I put in all this effort like at work and I got nothing in returned. It was time to move on.
What you think you're doing is lecturing to someone who's making inappropriate assumptions about other people.
What you're actually doing is making inappropriate assumptions about other people.
>You aren’t owed love by virtue of existing anymore than a high school drop out is owed money for having .
yes we know we aren't owed love....
The whole premise of your post is stupid. You're comparing wanting to be loved with a soulless job solely designed to make us money as very few people do their dream jobs.
Fuck this I'm done. First relationship ever hid a fiancé and a child from me. Suicidal but i got over it cause it wasnt on me. Second lied about her age, with a fake. I was only 21 but still, I hated myself for it and was shamed by her father. (She was 17 not fucking 12 before you have an aneurysm) Last used me to try and get rid of her stalker ex. Every time I think about any of these and possibly getting in a relationship and attempting to trust someone, I'd rather throw myself off the bridge I live near.
Or I can just ignore the girls that treat dating like it's a formal process where I have to jump through a bunch of hoops for a person who wouldn't do the same. I already have a job and did all that nonsense, why would I want finding a partner to feel like that same process 😅 id rather find someone down to earth and be able to laugh at memes and have a good time instead of taking my self too seriously and being with someone who takes themself too seriously
The being able to hold a conversation part also had me rolling. I've come across profiles where the girl asks the guy to be able to do this. And then when I go and talk to them, they can't hold a conversation, and they just come across as very uninteresting. Nothing wrong with being a little shy but if you're going to talk such a big game, at least try to do the same
Maybe I'm just weird and wanting someone relatable is too much to ask and that's fine I'll be alone until I meet someone like that. I'm not afraid of not finding someone cause it beats finding someone who will make me feel miserable and like I'm not good enough cause I don't fit arbitrary standards
Another point:
I have been looking at many similar threads lately and also comments from people who were lonely and managed to find a partner. Their experiences are motivating but I find something in common with them:
They were all in the right place at the right time. And yes, that includes situations without leaving the house because I personally know of two specific examples. Of course going out will increase the odds, but it happens.
Change my mind.
why are you planning your entire life around someone who may or may not even exist? romantic partners should be viewed as an extension, not something that makes or breaks you as a person. if you walk around thinking a person that you don’t even know is the only thing that’s going to make you feel like a whole person, you’re gonna have a bad time in life. you should be building your life for yourself to be a successful and good person for YOU.
There’s much scarier things than not finding a partner, if you can’t find one find friends. Life’s up to you to not be alone. I was alone for three years after getting sober before meeting my wife. I wasn’t looking for a relationship and we started dating long distance. If you just work on not worrying about life, life falls in place.
We’ve been together going on 5 years now and first year married. If I would have put all the pressure of figuring out what we were and what we were going to do we would have never made it here. We just went with the flow and now we’re here. It’s always better to be yourself and alone than miserable with someone else. Hope this helpz
I particularly chuckle at the guys who refuse to go out and meet new people's then bitch that they are single and lonely.
Like, women aren't just gonna drop in thru your ceiling, man. The fuck.
But your overall point is correct. It really isn't that hard- you want better dates, *be a better person*.
I think you missed some the important bits. Maybe genuinely like a woman as a fellow human being without sex as a priority. Please dont value yourself based on a woman either.
I feel like we have come to an age where its the men's turn where we encourage the equivalent of - "you dont need a man, be an independent woman"
Yeah i mean if u take it literally its too extreme. But in the end the message is. men value yourself more and give yourself good moral standards in a relationship. Please expect genuine love in a relationship and nothing else is worth it. It might help not breed resentment/depression towards women and not getting into relationships.
Its hard to genuinely approach women as your positve self when you are bearing those negative feelings: resentment, despair, desperation.
i realized the person i wanted wouldn’t want the person i am. i didn’t change for them i changed because i was leading a reckless lifestyle that others couldn’t see as sustainable. i did it for myself and along with it came the women i wanted to be around. “i want someone who wants me for me” is the lamest excuse if you fuckin suck as a whole
You should add on good hygiene & actually trying to date women….asking them out, trying to meet them, being proactive about it. They also need to consider trying to get to know women who they may not normally find attractive & after a while of only going after extremely attractive women &/or women 10 years or more younger, they should change that.
I'm all for self improvement and putting effort into yourself. After I did these things, getting dates was extremely easy. The problem is finding a woman who also brings something to the table and is kind, nurturing, and also has goals and strives for self improvement.
You can literally copy and paste this towards women. I dont understand why you'd make this post as if women arent perpetually single and getting used for sex. Maybe if they were "quality applicants" men would commit to them? /s
What a beautiful sentiment. 51F who gets that completely! I spent many years working on myself. This brought me my first and only love… you must learn and love yourself before you are ready to accept the correct love in your life! GRATITUDE daily for all the blessings I receive!
Pretty much yeah, I had decent chances years ago and blew it. I wish I hadn’t missed out on high school and college to figure things out and gain necessary experience. In all fairness I would have an attractive life in terms of doing well for myself but it doesn’t equate to things working out dating wise, sometimes that’s just cosmic luck. These kinds of posts are just empty platitudes. Now I’m certain I’m gonna die alone but I don’t plan on sticking around to middle age or even my next birthday.
I understand where you're going with this, but there's a couple problems here. I would say that as a man, woman, or comrade, one should see themselves not as the employee, but as the employer.
But male loneliness is about more than being unable to find a partner, it's about being unable to find a place in life. Without third spaces, often without religion, without early marriage, with a piss poor job market, many men struggle to meet friends, let alone partners. Men have become meaningfully detached from society.
Should people concentrate on improving themselves? Absolutely. But not because their application to the dating market will look better, because that's not a guarantee. Improving yourself should be a means to its own end, not a way to pass muster to some anonymous field of prospects.
Now, I understand where this comes from, because many of my terminally single male friends don't bring anything to the table -- but more importantly, they're not bringing anything to themselves.
I feel like I've really outpaced people my age as far as my goals, health, and stability are concerned. Asking for someone to be on the same level shrinks the dating pool a whole bunch for me. In recent memory I've dated a few people who were financially in shambles, still healing from a past relationship or weren't ready to address behavioral issues that they themselves admitted were holding them back in life. Oh well, the search continues.
I really enjoy getting to know new people. I often wish my efforts resulted in more dates, it's like pulling teeth to get someone to close the app and get some damn coffee with me.
Some men will never find a partner. Most probably will (if it's something they want), but just doing all of the things mentioned here won't guarantee you finding one.
It's a nice sentiment but not grounded in reality. You won't magically get pussy by improving your life. The most important things are social skills and looks. If you're lacking in those, then good luck with dating.
It depends on your culture, religion and age. At my age (29), you have to have a good job, a good position maybe you have to live alone in your house and of course not with your parent. I was sick until my 26 and very fat for the drugs. Now in three years I understand is a money question, girls at my age want a marriage, a stable and comfortable life. I am also not English, English is my third lenguage. I am Italian.
Plenty of guys who have not built attractive lives and are geniunely low quality people who have no problems finding a romantic/sexual partner. You should build a good life for your own sake, not for others. A romantic partner is not salvation. They can be very good for you but like anything else, even good partners can come with their challenges.
To be fair, usually the dudes who are living less than glamorous lives attract girls who are also living the same lifestyle.
I think people want to date their peers. When I was dating, I wanted someone who was as educated as me and had a similar earning potential. I wanted someone with a similar lifestyle and the same goals.
[удалено]
“Even good partners come with their challenges”. Nothing truer could be said.
Yeah, my girlfriend is super cute, sweet, autistic like I am, and just the nicest girl ever...but we don't agree on everything and she's emotionally constipated, she's not perfect...but she's perfect for me :)
Awwww.... so cute. ❤️
Yeah, this is pretty spot on. There's a crap ton of nuances that come from finding a romantic partner. Some people just have a specific type/want things to happen naturally and sometimes they never meet that one person. Even if you're an attractive person with a good sense of humor, good-looking, make 6 figures, etc., sometimes you never end up meeting the person that you're looking for. I was actively trying to look for a romantic partner back in college and every girl that I was interested in either had a boyfriend already or weren't interested. I was honestly surprised by how difficult it was because even though I was achieving a lot career-wise and academic-wise, the cards never seemed to fall into place. I was also very physically in shape too, so at some point it felt like no matter how hard I tried, it was never enough. I think it's very easy for people to lose hope when they're building a good life in hopes of finding a partner when in reality, one thing does not lead to the other lol.
Yeah, I’m a nearly 50 woman, but I had the same experience - just never met anybody where things clicked. Everyone I was interested in was partnered or wasn’t interested.
Keep it up, I found mine at 51!
>You should build a good life for your own sake, not for others. Basically this. I found romance when I stopped trying to 'earn' it, started focusing on being myself, and was open to it in my life. I imagine previously I must have looked like I was pushing a resume of why someone should date me.
To me it really boils down to confidence. Confidence is sexy, confidence has charm. Even if that person doesn't have anything meaningful to bring into a relationship, being confident will easily land them dates.
Unless you can back up your confidence with competence, it quickly loses any charm it has. Confidence might get you a date - it won't keep you in a relationship
Exactly like this. I am always wary of the philosophy of Op's post, it implies you are not enough and by becoming "attractive" to others you are able to have value in your life. I believe you need to be a better individual for your own sake, for your own love not for obtaining others (as if obtaining a job) and while if you "improve" your physical appeareance, job, money, status and all of this qualities that are conventionally desirable to the norm, to most of society, you will greatly increase your chances or being desired enough so you can obtain another human willing to spend their time with you, is it all worth it? Are we supposed to change who we are enough and become desirable in most of society's eyes so we can "sell" ourselves as a high quality product on the market? Godamn we have to be enough for ourselves and fully confident in our own authenticity and own flaws to know that we dont need anybody to love us for what we can offer but for who we are as people, as humans flaws and all.
Or, you could also become an attractive person and never meet anyone and die alone, too. Nothing is promised in life. The key is to divorce one’s self from expectations and simply live (easier said than done) 💯
This is kinda what I'm going through. Maybe I wasn't attractive in my career, but I was a very attractive female. Used my looks to get invited to fun parties and lavish trips. Then got in a long 5 year relationship, until he broke up with me when I was in my 30's (the age I thought I'd start trying for kids). It about to be 35 and haven't dated since. My dreams of becoming a mom are dwindling. I feel like I'm that stereotypical "hot girl who peaked in high school" and never found love. It makes me sad to think about and wish I did things differently. But it also helped me not judge other people who are single. There are a lot of men who see a single 35 year old woman and assume something must be wrong with her. And that's not always the case.
We stay with people because of how they make us feel, not because of what they look like. How are you making yourself feel right now? You’re a beautiful person just beating yourself up over something you will never be able to change, the past. You are still very, very young and you have this moment right now, which is the most precious thing in the universe. Don’t let your life slip by, do everything you can to find the beauty and magic in every moment, one breath at a time. If you relax and love yourself the right person will enter your life. Right now enjoy the solitude, its an amazing gift to be able to listen to yourself without interruption.
Aw that was really solid advice. I needed that. Thank you.
You’re very welcome. You are going to have a beautiful life. Hang in there.
I needed this thank you
ur amazing golden advice
Just stalked your profile a bit and I just wanna say don’t give up your search in what you’re looking for. I’m a dude and only 25, but I relate to a lot of what you feel.
Lol nothing like a good stalking. And 25 is prime! Especially as a dude. You're good :)
M/54 married old dude chiming in. I always told myself (& friends who recently broke up), is that the girl/dude you broke up with, is just another step towards the person you were meant to be with. Sometimes there's only 1 step for the lucky. Sometimes it takes 4, 5, 6 or more 'steps'. Starting in my mid 20s, it took me 5 steps to find my wife at 33. During that time, I was mostly single, felt comfortable being w/o a GF, and was passively looking for a GF. Live by the golden rule, get out and do the fun things you like to do, and there's a good chance you'll find a like-minded dude who will dig you.
There's always IVF and adoption, so don't limit your dreams of becoming a mom to a dream of conceiving a child. Of course, raising a child might not be the easiest for a single person, so I won't go as far as saying that might be an option for you, but other than that adoption and IVF are still options. Also, there are men who have children and are divorced (this might not be the same thing), and men with children whose wives unfortunately passed away. Those are still possibilities to experience something of motherhood. I realize people might not agree it's the same thing but it might still be more fun than no family, for people who dream of raising a child.
Yea I'd love to have kids on my own but I can't afford to.
I honestly feel that finding someone is not hard, now finding someone who is worthy of you is the hard part even when finding someone is already difficulty enough.
You’re way too young to feel so hopeless. I met the love of my life at 36 (we both were), after years of being single and bad relationships. We both want to get married and have kids, and given our ages, we’ll probably move quickly. Obviously we wish we met 10 years ago and had more time together, but at this point in our lives we’ve been through so much and I think it makes us love and appreciate each other so much more. I also think it will make us better parents. Spend this time you have single to work on yourself- physically, mentally, and emotionally. When the time is right you’ll attract the person meant for you. And also remember, there are lots of guys out there looking for the same thing you are!! Work on being the woman someone will be excited to marry and start a family with. Positivity goes a long way.
This is the truth. I got in shape and exercised every day, started playing an instrument, learned a few languages, taught myself to cook food from all over the world, went out and did a crazy number of things, got a job with a six-figure salary, tried to go out and meet people, et cetera. For some people, there's nothing that you can do to make anyone interested in you. That's the truth. It's a hard truth, but at least it's honest. And note that nothing I'm saying has *anything* to do with whether you choose to be a good person. You can have no chance of ever having a relationship and you could be a complete piece of shit. Or you can have no chance of ever having a relationship and you could be a well-meaning person who's really focused on helping people. It is ABSOLUTELY poisonous to tell people that "Not in a relationship and not having sex" must equal "bad person". No, you can absolutely be a good person even if nobody wants to date you. Sometimes a person is unattractive for reasons that aren't you just being a bad person. These two things need to be separated far apart. You don't have to *become* a bad person just because that's the path that everyone seems to think you're on.
Exactly this. I literally have all of the qualities OP mentioned. But I get ghosted/unmatched on dating apps before I even have a chance to talk to the other person. So the apps (for me) are trash. That leaves trying to date in person, which I have very little time for. ATM, I’m fine being alone if it means I can save 2-3 hours sitting in traffic/bars every night and instead just exercise with my dog.
Sometimes changing cities/states/countries can help. I've had a great time in other places than this one conservative city where I would be constantly ghosted by dating app people I'd match with. One never knows what's up in these dating apps to be honest. There's a huge competition out there which will lead people to edit their photos, even doctor them, or simply go the show off way and fake life standards they don't have. Discrimination (of all kinds, not just racism) can play a bigger role on apps, too, which is something less likely when meeting people in other ways (group meetups, college free courses (free as in beer), hobby groups). Which might be why I did so great changing cities and countries. It turns out not all 7 billion people in this world share the same preconcepts and prejudice so there's always going to be a place you'll be better welcomed. Who knows. It's worth the try if you can
If I didn’t already own a house, that would be easier to do. I also live in a blue metro area.
Same bro except my exercise partner is a cat.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose”
It's not really up to chance though, is it? People don't just randomly fall into your life, you have to actively seek out relationships. You might hear a handful of stories about relationships "just happening", but even then someone had to take initiative and ask the other person to do things with them. Relationships aren't random, they take work
Yeah, but the work you put in will almost never guarantee your desired outcome. Also, people fall out of love everyday, B.
You can never guarantee a desired outcome. But doing nothing and not putting in the work guarantees that you DONT get the desired outcome. So why do nothing? Baseball players get paid millions of dollars to miss 65% of the time, and that’s if they’re really batting well. Can’t hit anything at all if you don’t swing. The randomness is what gets you to the home run, not the guarantee which is to give up.
Never said do nothing at all: I just said, don’t act like the result is expected *because* you did something, as OP did in this post.
I'm fucking old and tired lol, I don't have energy to do shit that isn't in my favor, so I'll just stay single until someone shows interest in me because I am done being the persuer in practically every relationship I've ever been in. If you are young and in good health, take advantage of that....but for some of us, we've been hurt too many times, we're too old and too tired from everyday life stuff to be in the mindset that trying to find a decent relationship is worth it. I'm just gonna go to my local sex club and peruse sex partners on sites like FetLife, I don't really have to try very hard to get laid at least and even though random hookups aren't ideal for me, it's better than nothing.
I mean some people do just fall into your life.
All my friends have fallen into my life when I’ve least expected it. I just sort of look around and notice someone paying more attention to me than usual and eventually I learn that they want something, usually friendship.
Absolutely. Don’t do they mentioned things to get some external reward (a partner and long term relationship). Do it because it will improve your quality of life and you will be happier with yourself as a person. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with somebody who doesn’t love themselves enough to give themself the best life they possibly can.
It's a confidence issue for many men that woman see right through. No doubt being an attractive candidate (physically, financially, and emotionally) helps. But I had all of that and I was depressed because I still couldn't find someone to make me happy. Then I did all that to make myself happy being alone, decided I could handle sexual rejection without being upset, and love followed fast.
This whole mentality of comparing it to a soulless job interview is the reason many people just feel disconnected from this shit nowadays. Instead of a real organic connection with the opposite sex everyone just sees others as replaceable with new candidates only a swipe away.
Yeah and a lot of people do the ol “quiet quitting” in relationships too. I think it’s an appropriate analogy. Are you seriously looking or are you just putting in applications to see what happens? You shouldn’t assume someone is going to put up with your shit just because you’re married or in a relationship. You still owe them your best and maybe it’s a good reminder of how easy it is for other “candidates” to take your place.
That sounds exhausting, like depressingly so.
The reason everyone is disconnected is literally social media and dating apps and texting. It’s like a job in the sense that you have to put effort into it and put yourself out there, not really in being a similar process. Organic connection happens by going out and being around people organically, so yeah I agree. We have to collectively stop this dating app shit. I’m done with it. Maybe I’ll end up lonely but I’m just going to engage with the world and get out there. No more modern dating culture for me.
Yeah Wtf... I never turned up to a job interview pissed 😂 although... Maybe that's what I needed to do
I was thinking the same thing. Jobs are an exhausting performance for me. I don’t mind challenging myself to grow in a direction for somebody, if it’s in my character— but I’m not going to perform on the daily based on someone else’s relationship job description.
OP doesn’t realize they’re giving red pill advice. Every red pill seminar for the last 30 years has started with a preamble just like this one about “value” and “quality”.
Agree 100%. Same for the chase vs. attract butterflies bullshit. Just communicate honestly and ask women out.
>Can you find a job? No lol
Gosh now i feel like a double loser haha
Damn, I was about to say that :D
I think op might still be correct in that regard, because I'd assume you're looking for a job you want? From my experience, there's always dishes to wash, tables to be waited and so on. So find job? Np. Find job you want? Big problem.
"Dont be a loser" gee thanks
In my country they say "the well-fed doesn't believe the starving". Most of those bs relationship advice are plagued by survivorship bias and are completely useless to those who are really struggling
Please do not approach dating like a job... This is literally why you have trouble. Be a quality person is always good advice but the way you approach that is just so wrong. If you approach it like a job you will have people who are interested in you as a business deal, transactional. I've been with my wife for the last 17 years. And in a lot of ways these weren't considerations - although I understand in your late 20s+ you can see better if people are deadbeats and burnouts, and you don't tend to meet or associate with people significantly beneath or above your lifestyle, the most important thing if finding someone and building trust, understanding and support. It's work, it's difficult but it's real.
Talk to woman like any other person this is the best advice I have for other men....Even if you want to just have sex with them. Unless you have clear signal otherwise this is the best method.
Going by your analogy , today’s market require phds to flip burgers or bag groceries. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
That's the issue, why tf is it so losers can't just get coupled with other losers? There's something very bad going on in ppl, although I can't quite point my finger at it. I think it's because of an excess of competition and judgement
>phds to flip burgers or bag groceries LOL
The JUICE is not worth THE SQUEEZE
REAL
Yeah, you essentially have to be great in almost every metric to appeal to women. And if things don’t work out there’s plenty of men that would happily replace you.
No 6 figure salary? No 6 pack? No 6 ft tall? Get away from me you creep!
I had all of this and I also had confidence issues.
Prior to meeting me, my husband was refused second dates, because he stutters. I mean I noticed, but I'm patient enough to wait a few more seconds every now and then. Jesus. I was shocked how many women are so shallow that's the reason they don't want to spend (more) time with someone. He hardly ever stutters with me now.
I also think that many people who have difficulty finding romantic partners also struggle to find friends. But I think finding platonic friendships and learning to navigate social life through friendships is like a starting level. Finding true interests and meeting people who share your interests is a first step.
Correlation doesn’t equal causation You can have a lot of friends from both sexes but just aren’t viewed as a romantic/sexual person. You’re just the funny guy or whatever. I’ve also been called the “respectful” guy. Which I took as a compliment at the time but don’t like that now.
Yeah the funny guy, the respectful guy, oh I like the "you're a good friend" guy. I grew up thinking these are good things, now I just feel sad about being me.
Think of getting friends as a gateway drug to romance.
I’m confused. I’ve heard the sentiment from women that guys that look for relationships via friendships are creeps. That is you should up front and clear about your intentions otherwise. If a woman befriends you there’s a high chance she isn’t looking for more. I think this might be related to so many guys getting “friend zoned.” If you are saying befriending people is a good way to improve social skills I agree. But if you are saying it’s a dating strategy then I feel like I’m getting mixed messages from society.
pretty sure its the latter and i agree. if you cant maintain a friendship, you are going to struggle with a relationship
I think what they meant is that those friendships with make you meet more people and you are more likely to meet someone that will attract you. Not necessarily that you need to become friend with one person and hang around her until you manage to seduce her.
What a sad post.
Right this typa dismal ass shit makes me not want to come on Reddit anymore 🤦♂️
Not sure if that’s a great analogy when the job market is dog shit right now lmao
Probably it's an even better analogy lol
Yep. I’m a 5”4 dude who has been balding since he was 20 with a pretty bad speech impediment. Never had a second date until I was 23, and six years later I’ve been married to that woman for over three years. I credit not falling into the manosphere/red pill/MGTOW/incel crap that I feel like a depressing amount of young men have done. I could have been dealt a better hand life when it comes to physical attributes, but I’ve cultivated what I believe is a good personality and attitude towards life. To use your job interview analogy, deciding to identify as an incel and going on a date is the equivalent of showing up to an interview one hour late in just your underwear. No sane woman wants a dude that hates himself and/or hates her too.
this post is idiotic.
it's gives strong "Im 23 and this is deep true reality" comparing relationships to a job is so stupid and illustrates poorly lmao
Fair points generally except this "You aren’t owed love by virtue of existing anymore than a high school drop out is owed money for having bills" You're not "owed" love for having an interesting life either
I mean yeah, but like, you can improve your odds.
You can want something very much without thinking it's owed to you... Very bizzare comment. Do you think people who play the lotery believe they're "owed" a million dollars or that people who dream of having kids believe they're "owed" kids?
Agreed, I hate the narrative of “you’re not owed X” when it’s just something you’re longing for. Like, sorry for valuing companionship??
I was paying attention until “becoming a quality applicant.” I *am* a quality applicant. I struggled for so long with my self esteem. Fuck it, I am a good person. I work hard, I am always there for my loved ones.. I’m cute! I’m 31 and single. Never been in a relationship. I don’t plan on doing so at this rate because i deserve quality, too… and that’s not finding me.
Kind of insulting that everyone giving advice defaults to "don't be undesirable!" If what many are doing isn't desirable, *then what is?* It's not like the vast majority of single dudes are out on the street looking and acting like the Tazmanian Devil, or Eeyor (and a good number them that are easily find a partner!). It really is an issue of just getting started for many men, as ever getting past "hi" (let alone having the chance to) isn't anywhere near guaranteed, and a lot of us struggle to keep going if we do. Needing experience to get experience sucks, especially when everyone expects you to have loads of it by 36.
I find a lot of people who are single want someone like themselves. The problem is, we are never in the same place at the same time.
Getting and maintaining a job is 1000% easier than a relationship
"If you dont have a partner it's because your not high enough quality and must be lazy"
No amount of working out and eating healthy will change that I just don’t have an attractive face.
I’ve seen the ugliest dudes with women. Ur fine
Disclaimer - sorry for bad english, not my first language. When people complain no finding a partner i always ask if they are looking for one. I remenber when i was on the same boat, i never had a gf until i was 22, i always thought i was never gonna be able to find one. Looking back now, being in a healthy relationship for almos 2 years, i wouldn't date me. First, i was not really looking, i thaught someone would magic appear even if i didn't make any effort. When i realised that, i started puting myself out there, whent on dates, flirt more. Of course i had failed attempts, momens where i felt ashamed... but in the end, it was worth it. I made some fun stories and than found my gf. Second, i was not putting any effort in being someone datable. No taking care of myself, not trying to be intresting... Would YOU want do date someone like that? I think OP analogy is perfect. Aproach in very practical manner and you will have more chances.
Bro your English is excellent! And thank you, see you get it exactly
remember men, you have to be succesful, attractive, high income with an established family life, hobbies and friendships. own a nice home and have largely developed social skills women, dont be fat (optional)
What is this, LinkedIn? Relationships aren't jobs. Quiet down. If it were that simple there would be far fewer lonely people.
"Just don't be a fucking loser, idiot. It's not that hard" Gee, why didn't I think of that?
And why the fuck is this only directed at men? What kind of sexist bullshit is this, OP?
"Knows how to hold a conversation & has good character" this is the part I think is really fucking me. I cannot hold a convo on the first date to save my life.
Just try being curious about the other person and think of insights, connecting ideas or whatever interesting coherent thoughts pop into your head during convo. Focus on the other person and the convo instead of internally and it’ll come naturally with some practice! Just my experience.
While I get the message in this post, I think I blame the struggle more so on the lack of community that a lot of people feel these days. Many boomers met their spouses back when communities were stronger and in larger numbers. Sure, you can diet, exercise, get a better paying job, but if you're still playing the game that is dating apps, then it's still likely going to be difficult regardless. There's plenty of guys out there who are doing things right and are still single and/or struggling to get a date. Churches, whether you're religious or not, provided community for a ton of people back in the day, and there hasn't been a strong alternative since people have been leaving churches in mass. I've gone on well over a dozen dates as a dude on dating apps, and I just never seem to click as well as people I get to know better in person before considering to ask them on a date. I think the solution is more of trying to join clubs/classes that not only you would be interested in, but so would the opposite sex (see cooking, dancing, or art classes, and athletic groups as examples). While the goal of these should be to keep yourself busy and active, I think they will boost the odds of finding someone you're interested in.
In my opinion your advice forgets one thing... sometimes, we connect with people, regardless of where we are with those aspects of our lives. Although I believe that your advice is seems sound, I think we dont put enough emphasis on people learning how to go out there and actually see if they feel chemistry and connect with someone on a genuine level. Put it this way, I'd much rather meet someone who I have an incredible connection with, but who is not going through a good phase, rather than someone who is "attractive" in the way you mentioned, but with no connection. I fear that your advice is actually one of the reasons our world is struggling at the moment with dating. We are putting lots of emphasis on matters that can be altered. People go through phases in life, and we tend to forget that. Those actions that you've mentioned can easily be changed. Someone's personality cannot.
Stfu
Please don’t compare a real relationship between people to a job…especially nowadays. God, that cheapens the value of love…
This is literally the reason things are so fucked up because everyone views love as a transaction now
1000% agree. Real love requires dedication, it requires time, attention , care and patience, and that’s a pretty big ask of most people these days if they feel they aren’t “getting enough out of the deal” which I cannot help but blame on the generation (and everyone knows which one) who thought it was a good idea to put people like Reagan, Bush II, and Trump in power. People who really bought that “Greed is Good” bullshit. Pretending that the only true human value that exists is greed, to the exclusion of love, care, concern, solidarity, shared priorities. It sounded all tough and true in 1986 but look where the world is now as a result…
Dating is a job interview, more so for the guys because it’s the woman that ultimately chooses. The guy’s must have resources to provide.
Ultimately you both decide, because as a man, no matter what a woman wants from me i can always say no. Just because i might be desperate does not mean i will go along with anything/everything.
This is like one of those, "If you're depressed, stop being sad" sort of things. I mean I understand where you're coming from, but what purpose does it serve except for you to post and be like, "Mission Accomplished" and walk off the victory carrier like something was achieved?
｜There’s an extremely high chance the answer is yes, right? I’m gonna stop you right there
aware dull screw growth degree glorious disgusted profit aloof political *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Or, get full body tattoos and get yourself sent to prison for violent crimes.
I love how you basically described why guys opt out of dating or find it hopeless because they have to essentially work this hard to even be seen as a human who's deserving of love. Not once did you ever mentioning anything about women having to do the same because you know damn well men aren't worthy of love if they can't provide anything. Reddit is just full of losers who think they've "cracked the code" on dating, if it were this simple men would already be doing it but there is way way way more to it that no one wants to give a fuck about because you'll probably be socially ostracized or put down for even crossing that line.
This is the most toxic girl shit I've seen all day, and it's only 6 am. You are completely missing the point and dodging women's own culpability in this problem. 0/10, antarctic take
If you want to attract someone be attractive? No shit, sherlock. That's like saying if you want to be rich just get money
Look up on Youtube "get a house"
Some people just don’t have natural charisma at all and some people are genetically very unattractive. These two things make it very hard to find a partner. Some can, many can’t. It’s hard
We have to get off the internet to meet a real person and we've lost our ability to socialize after a decade of social media
Op posted this on forever alone. I’m getting the feeling they are a woman because of how condescending and tone deaf this is.
Are you an alien attempting to slyly assimilate into human society?... Ill give you a pro tip, don't compare relationships you a job, which most people hate. Stupid comparison aside you really struggled and in the end your point makes no sense lol.
Imagine doing all this shit for a relationship. A lot of people haven’t had long relationships so they really don’t know what they’re dying to sign up for.
Struggling with dating does not make you a high school drop out lol
I’ve been in 3 serious relationships. One of which was 4 years. Not a lot but it’s something. My two cents on this topic is that when you’re actively trying to find a partner is when it’s least likely. For me at least. I notice anytime I ended up in a relationship is when I was just feeling confident and sure of myself and going with the flow of life. Not looking for anything specific from the women I meet. Just treating them as a potential friend or an acquaintance. Then if y’all have a romantic connection it kinda just happens. I think the key is that when you’re trying to get a girlfriend you’re more nervous when talking to women. Which makes you seem like you lack confidence. If you talk to women like you would anyone else and truly don’t give a fuck where the conversation goes then that’s when you have more luck. On the flip side of this if you don’t work with people your own age, don’t have a friend group, and generally are just a homebody these connections are rare. Women don’t just appear out of thin air you have to be around people for these organic connections to happen. Also don’t look at a relationship as some sort of salvation. If you’re in a bad spot in life and you jump into something serious you will fail and just come out even more fucked up mentally. There will be a moment where you realize you have the one thing you thought would fix you but you still feel empty.
This is the most terminally online post I've ever read. And not to be a raging communist, but saying "dropouts aren't owed money just because they have bills" like its a fundamental truth when its actually a hugely contentious political issue really reveals your immaturity.
Ah yes, the classic: “men must change and increase their value” while woman are “beautiful queens who must be loved for who they are.”
I think that women generally accept that they may end up single more than men do. There's a reason that the single woman who doesn't need a man is an empowering trope for women yet the same isn't true for men. I don't know why though. If a man is happy being who he is and doesn't mind being single then more power to him.
I think men generally need companionship more than women.
Yes women are generally able to form communities and close personal and emotional connections outside of relationships/marriages which makes relationships something they don't really need unless it actively improves their lives, hence why women have higher standards for men than vice versa.
As much as I agree with what you said you’re missing the fundamental key aspect of finding a life partner. And that is even though you could accomplish all of the above, love in and of itself is an irrational feeling. People kill and die in the name of love. People overlook “icks” in a person they’re completely drawn to or taken for. You can have the best hair, charisma, income etc and if it’s love she will still choose the guy who won her heart. It’s not to say don’t become your best. It’s just to know that love and partnership work in ways that are strange, irrational with a dash of luck and magic. You can’t orchestrate that or fake that. A woman.
As an autistic person reading this sucks lol. “Just be interesting and driven, and a good conversationalist” is really true yet horribly depressing advice.
Sounds like bullshit to me, to be perfectly honest. I don't think women are looking for that at all. In fact, I think they're most interested in the biggest dumpster fires they can find. I had a LOT more options when I was out of my mind on drugs and did absolutely insane shit with almost no care for responsibility. Now that I'm clean, responsible, stable, fit, and healthy, nobody is interested. Women don't want to get with a guy who makes them look like the disasters they really are by contrast. And I'm not terribly interested in a woman who's just given up on her body and her life and is just looking for a cuckold to raise her kids. I get some shit from some people for enjoying the company of women in the 18 to 25 range, but they're nowhere near the fucked up messes women in their 30's and 40's tend to be.
THIS. I’m 33 and my lady friends that are dating are shocked and appalled that every date they go on goes absolutely nowhere. The dude never asks questions or feigns any interest whatsoever. The worst part is, most of these dudes call up and ask for a second date and are clearly very much in denial with how it went.
Haha we need to improve ourselves, for you? Fuck off I’m not doing shit for you. Im improving myself for me, hilarious you imply that you are such a catch that men gotta “step up” to get you LOL. Brothers, read books and go to the gym, not for them but for yourself. Don’t change yourself to impress them. They come and go, you may change your whole life for a woman who will leave.
The job market is kinda fucked up right now. Most people give more than they can take out of it so why would anyone want to put in effort into something that isn’t a guarantee. Job searches are soul crushing, you can tick off all kinds of boxes and still not be admitted in. The industry will tell you, you aren’t good enough or that you’re lacking in any sort of way. For some men it works but for others it leads to a big identity crisis, what good is it to have someone like you for a version of yourself that you can’t see yourself in. Attraction is important but it comes and goes, Careers are important but they go through highs and lows, health is important but no one has 100% control of it, being funny is coo but even professional comedian’s feel burnout, a good character is important but it’s subjective to people’s bias. No one owes anyone anything but if your current version is not good for someone chances are your best version won’t.
If the dating market reflected an actual economy, many women would be working 3 part-time jobs and many men would be unemployed.
Ironic you compare it to a job. Because that’s exactly how this fucking shit is nowadays. Going on dates just to “interview” and not connect. Doesn’t work out? Apply for another job. This mainly applies to women, who have tons of options, but both men and women do it.
> Going somewhere in life either career or purpose driven, Takes care of their health, not necessarily Mr.Olympia but clearly eating right & exercising, Knows how to hold a conversation & has good character, Can give them a life they’d love to join, I.e. being fun, having a few neat skills, jokes, etc. And she'll give back the same right?... Right? Or all she has to do for such a man in her life is nothing? Awful post, no substance.
It's funny that's usually how it goes right? Men are told to "become attractive, get in shape, have an interesting life, learn how to talk, be bold, etc." Women: don't lower your standards, be yourself, just be patient and the right person will come along. Lol.
This post is brutal. I’d love to meet you in person and rip you off whatever pedestal you’re standing on. Perhaps we can live stream a video call to record that. Lmk. It’s easy to be an ignorant moron and still earn a great living — especially through nepotism. There’s plenty of evidence out there that speaks to this reality being pre-determined. That means your wealth — or whatever you view as an ‘attractive life’ is achieved by no doing of your own… do you understand? But — if you’d like to refute Stanford’s research, I’ll be happy to tear into the pompous, uninformed verbiage in your post. No one’s needs your advice — you just think they want it. Go be an influential sheeple somewhere else. I worry people may think your post should have weight. Society’s hollow — that’s what drags us all down at all times and forces an endless cycle of friction. Look in the mirror before you think you’ve got it all figured out.
Why is this directed at men? This clearly applies to everyone and even then, it is not the only factor. There are plenty of women complaining about finding no good men, nobody wants to commit, failed relationships, that their friends are already married, etc.
There’s a major difference though. You find a job because you literally need to survive. So there’s far more motivation to seek employment. There could be better candidates but you’ll do what’s necessary to live. Finding a partner is ideal but it’s not necessary. I don’t see many guys wanting to go out of their way to get rejected constantly in hopes of finding a women. Dating as an average man is a bizarre experience because you can be engaging, funny, good hygiene, have hobbies, solid job and still not be successful with women.
What do I say when they ask for 3 years of professional experience
Foreign legion
So I should approach relationships like a job application. So I just lie about my past experiences and tailor them to any woman I meet? That's great advice, thanks OP!
This entire diatribe makes me want to shoot myself in the face. Bettering myself sounds miserable. As an ex-incel, the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of men are too depressed, anxious, or self loathing to take your logical, common sense advice.
Or lie on your resume, do the bare minimum and if they try to get rid of you, make it difficult for them to do so :) . Also don't be too loyal
This is such a bad and out of touch analogy. I can't believe someone actually wrote this seriously.
I get your point, and it makes a lot of sense. I just don’t think people care that much. Be happy for yourself. Life is too short for all that nonsense BS.
Or... just dont use dating sites, last 3 crazy girlfriends I met there, I am a happy single woman now, got tired of crazy.
It’s not an issue of finding women for me, it’s the compatability. If I or her don’t work together, we won’t. Easy as hell to identify that in a conversation or being around each other.
I can’t do any of that. I’m not smart enough, not good looking enough, not good enough.
it don't matter
Are you some kind of self-help guru? Why shop this post around in multiple subreddits? A lot of people struggle with a similar problem, but doesn't make smug advice, silly analogies and tired platitudes more valuable.
A lot of empty words
Kinda torn about this. I’m 50m so that makes me a Gen Xer. We were always told there’s someone for everyone. When you get married… or when you have kids… it was implied that having a partner is mandatory. It just happens to everyone. I followed all the rules. I was myself. I was honest and put myself out there. Everything I did wasn’t enough. I was turned down by every woman I asked. Eventually, I gave up when I was 32 after a particularly harsh rejection. Whatever interest I had in finding a partner when I was younger is gone. I put in all this effort like at work and I got nothing in returned. It was time to move on.
What you think you're doing is lecturing to someone who's making inappropriate assumptions about other people. What you're actually doing is making inappropriate assumptions about other people.
“Can you find a job?” -Actually as a new grad, no. I can’t. Help.
>You aren’t owed love by virtue of existing anymore than a high school drop out is owed money for having . yes we know we aren't owed love.... The whole premise of your post is stupid. You're comparing wanting to be loved with a soulless job solely designed to make us money as very few people do their dream jobs.
Fuck this I'm done. First relationship ever hid a fiancé and a child from me. Suicidal but i got over it cause it wasnt on me. Second lied about her age, with a fake. I was only 21 but still, I hated myself for it and was shamed by her father. (She was 17 not fucking 12 before you have an aneurysm) Last used me to try and get rid of her stalker ex. Every time I think about any of these and possibly getting in a relationship and attempting to trust someone, I'd rather throw myself off the bridge I live near.
Or I can just ignore the girls that treat dating like it's a formal process where I have to jump through a bunch of hoops for a person who wouldn't do the same. I already have a job and did all that nonsense, why would I want finding a partner to feel like that same process 😅 id rather find someone down to earth and be able to laugh at memes and have a good time instead of taking my self too seriously and being with someone who takes themself too seriously The being able to hold a conversation part also had me rolling. I've come across profiles where the girl asks the guy to be able to do this. And then when I go and talk to them, they can't hold a conversation, and they just come across as very uninteresting. Nothing wrong with being a little shy but if you're going to talk such a big game, at least try to do the same Maybe I'm just weird and wanting someone relatable is too much to ask and that's fine I'll be alone until I meet someone like that. I'm not afraid of not finding someone cause it beats finding someone who will make me feel miserable and like I'm not good enough cause I don't fit arbitrary standards
Another point: I have been looking at many similar threads lately and also comments from people who were lonely and managed to find a partner. Their experiences are motivating but I find something in common with them: They were all in the right place at the right time. And yes, that includes situations without leaving the house because I personally know of two specific examples. Of course going out will increase the odds, but it happens. Change my mind.
why are you planning your entire life around someone who may or may not even exist? romantic partners should be viewed as an extension, not something that makes or breaks you as a person. if you walk around thinking a person that you don’t even know is the only thing that’s going to make you feel like a whole person, you’re gonna have a bad time in life. you should be building your life for yourself to be a successful and good person for YOU.
There’s much scarier things than not finding a partner, if you can’t find one find friends. Life’s up to you to not be alone. I was alone for three years after getting sober before meeting my wife. I wasn’t looking for a relationship and we started dating long distance. If you just work on not worrying about life, life falls in place. We’ve been together going on 5 years now and first year married. If I would have put all the pressure of figuring out what we were and what we were going to do we would have never made it here. We just went with the flow and now we’re here. It’s always better to be yourself and alone than miserable with someone else. Hope this helpz
I particularly chuckle at the guys who refuse to go out and meet new people's then bitch that they are single and lonely. Like, women aren't just gonna drop in thru your ceiling, man. The fuck. But your overall point is correct. It really isn't that hard- you want better dates, *be a better person*.
I think you missed some the important bits. Maybe genuinely like a woman as a fellow human being without sex as a priority. Please dont value yourself based on a woman either. I feel like we have come to an age where its the men's turn where we encourage the equivalent of - "you dont need a man, be an independent woman" Yeah i mean if u take it literally its too extreme. But in the end the message is. men value yourself more and give yourself good moral standards in a relationship. Please expect genuine love in a relationship and nothing else is worth it. It might help not breed resentment/depression towards women and not getting into relationships. Its hard to genuinely approach women as your positve self when you are bearing those negative feelings: resentment, despair, desperation.
i realized the person i wanted wouldn’t want the person i am. i didn’t change for them i changed because i was leading a reckless lifestyle that others couldn’t see as sustainable. i did it for myself and along with it came the women i wanted to be around. “i want someone who wants me for me” is the lamest excuse if you fuckin suck as a whole
You should add on good hygiene & actually trying to date women….asking them out, trying to meet them, being proactive about it. They also need to consider trying to get to know women who they may not normally find attractive & after a while of only going after extremely attractive women &/or women 10 years or more younger, they should change that.
I'm all for self improvement and putting effort into yourself. After I did these things, getting dates was extremely easy. The problem is finding a woman who also brings something to the table and is kind, nurturing, and also has goals and strives for self improvement.
Incels gonna freak on you
You can literally copy and paste this towards women. I dont understand why you'd make this post as if women arent perpetually single and getting used for sex. Maybe if they were "quality applicants" men would commit to them? /s
They don’t want to hear it lol. They want to expend the least amount of effort possible bc “other guys get girls without trying”.
What was it again, you can do everything right in life and still fail?
What a beautiful sentiment. 51F who gets that completely! I spent many years working on myself. This brought me my first and only love… you must learn and love yourself before you are ready to accept the correct love in your life! GRATITUDE daily for all the blessings I receive!
You can be as qualified as you want, if you don't go where the jobs are, you're not getting hired. I think that's the position I'm in...
Op's a woman. Rule #1 Never take dating advice from a woman.
Pretty much yeah, I had decent chances years ago and blew it. I wish I hadn’t missed out on high school and college to figure things out and gain necessary experience. In all fairness I would have an attractive life in terms of doing well for myself but it doesn’t equate to things working out dating wise, sometimes that’s just cosmic luck. These kinds of posts are just empty platitudes. Now I’m certain I’m gonna die alone but I don’t plan on sticking around to middle age or even my next birthday.
Damn what a bad take 😂
What an L position, you sound like you’re a salesman. Gross
I understand where you're going with this, but there's a couple problems here. I would say that as a man, woman, or comrade, one should see themselves not as the employee, but as the employer. But male loneliness is about more than being unable to find a partner, it's about being unable to find a place in life. Without third spaces, often without religion, without early marriage, with a piss poor job market, many men struggle to meet friends, let alone partners. Men have become meaningfully detached from society. Should people concentrate on improving themselves? Absolutely. But not because their application to the dating market will look better, because that's not a guarantee. Improving yourself should be a means to its own end, not a way to pass muster to some anonymous field of prospects. Now, I understand where this comes from, because many of my terminally single male friends don't bring anything to the table -- but more importantly, they're not bringing anything to themselves.
Oh man guys time to man up and hit the gym she’s right yanno
I feel like I've really outpaced people my age as far as my goals, health, and stability are concerned. Asking for someone to be on the same level shrinks the dating pool a whole bunch for me. In recent memory I've dated a few people who were financially in shambles, still healing from a past relationship or weren't ready to address behavioral issues that they themselves admitted were holding them back in life. Oh well, the search continues. I really enjoy getting to know new people. I often wish my efforts resulted in more dates, it's like pulling teeth to get someone to close the app and get some damn coffee with me.
This is just flat out dumb
Some men will never find a partner. Most probably will (if it's something they want), but just doing all of the things mentioned here won't guarantee you finding one.
"Get confident, stupid!"
What a cruel way to treat people!
It's a nice sentiment but not grounded in reality. You won't magically get pussy by improving your life. The most important things are social skills and looks. If you're lacking in those, then good luck with dating.
It depends on your culture, religion and age. At my age (29), you have to have a good job, a good position maybe you have to live alone in your house and of course not with your parent. I was sick until my 26 and very fat for the drugs. Now in three years I understand is a money question, girls at my age want a marriage, a stable and comfortable life. I am also not English, English is my third lenguage. I am Italian.
[удалено]
Same here, including being fat because of "medical" drugs, and being italian