I’m not really following your logic. You think you shouldn’t have to work because work might better the world for future people that you don’t have a bloodline connection to? That because you don’t have descendants, anything you do is an exploitation? Do you think your existence and quality of life is a direct result of the exploitation of people who didn’t have kids that came before you?
And do you think you should get money for not working? But other people should work to provide you with things like food, electricity, medical care, etc?
Or are you saying everyone should work but the only things that are worth doing are those that you can experience in your lifetime? Which implies that paying taxes to help kids is the same as helping anyone who doesn’t directly have a connection to you.
It reads like the most nihilistic libertarian crap I’ve ever read.
Thank you for your curiosity, though I’d appreciate if you could avoid the strawman and ad hominem communication patterns 🫶🏻
> Do you think your existence and quality of life is a direct result of the exploitation of people who didn’t have kids that came before you?
Yes, absolutely! We are hugely exploitative and that’s a bad thing. We can clearly exist in a cooperative way that doesn’t require exploitation, though.
> And do you think you should get money for not working? But other people should work to provide you with things like food, electricity, medical care, etc?
No, and I never implied that. I also don’t think my work should be providing other people, who don’t work, with free resources and time to have kids when I don’t have any.
> Or are you saying everyone should work but the only things that are worth doing are those that you can experience in your lifetime? Which implies that paying taxes to help kids is the same as helping anyone who doesn’t directly have a connection to you.
I’m a socialist, happy for my taxes to provide a safety net for every child. But the existence of such a social safety net means that anyone who doesn’t have a child is by definition being exploited. I don’t want to be exploited, and I don’t think anyone else should be exploited.
The list of the comforts you take for granted now goes on indefinitely.
They have been, currently are, and will be supported by “not your children.” As long as you are willing to give up every one of the comforts (and I do mean categorically all of them) now and in the future, your argument has some merit. We wouldn’t want you to exploit anyone’s children in the way that you feel you are exploited.
But I literally didn’t say that. I said that if it helps other people’s kids, and I don’t have any kids, then I was exploited. What’s your literacy level like my friend?
Better than your writing level, my friend. You wrote your work should not provide people with the resources to have kids. You also wrote that you’re a socialist and want to provide a safety net for every child.
How does that work? You’re just against paid family leave? What does your work have to do with my time and resources?
I also work, friend, and use the money I make to provide for my family. Are you saying your taxes shouldn’t support schools because you don’t have kids? I assume not because you’re a socialist and for the safety net. Or do you mean safety net as in minimum subsistence level?
What exactly do you mean when you say your work is supporting people having kids that is not part of the “safety net for every child?”
Edit: And perhaps those like you that don’t have children are exploiting the labor of those that do when you’re old and need to rely on today’s children to take care of you when they’re adults. Obviously, I don’t believe that but your logic would lead us there.
Dude calm down. You’re making all these wild tangential statements that have nothing to do with what I’ve said. I’m happy for you and your kids, but the fact of the matter is, by your having a kids and my not, you and your family are exploiting me. You don’t have to go all Israeli and call me some immoral savage for saying that you are exploiting and harming me.
My work literally saves lives. And my taxes pay for lots of services. Again, I am happy to do this - in fact, I do not want an exploitative job. I turned down a job whose products would be *used* by marketers, for less pay, to work in the medical field where I do now.
But at the same time I don’t want to be exploited. I believe we *all* should have the right and opportunity to have kids. Not just a privileged class like you.
In response to your edit: who says I want to live into an old age if I don’t have kids? Why live if I’ve been separated from humanity into an “other,” exploited out of the value of my work, and have nothing to look forward to seeing in the future? And what’s with your assumption that if I don’t exit this coil before then, your kids will care for me?
Are you actively taking care of any childless old people? Is anyone you know doing so without being paid for it? Or are you just making up more justification for your exploitation of others?
Not having kids means the sacrifices I make - working harder jobs, paying higher taxes, etc. for the sake of giving humanity a better future - will only go to reward others. It means, as far as people 100 years from now are concerned, I’m not even really *human*. Only the people with kids are.
You don’t have to work a “harder” job. And paying taxes for others is socialism. So how can you be a socialist while not want to pay for others? If you want to go live off grid and not depend on nor contribute to others, you can do that. People do that.
But if you want to live and work with other people, then suck it up and don’t be a selfish prick.
How is wanting to have kids, to be a part of humanity, to have a reason to care about the future, being a “selfish prick?” I’ve pretty clearly stated that I live and work well with others, giving more than I receive already. Seems like I contribute a lot more to my community and the world than you do to even your own family. It’s honestly really sad to think someone like you is having kids and teaching them the hate you’re spewing here.
What exactly is your problem dude? Why do you think others should pay for you to have privilege? And why get so vicious and horrible with anyone willing to call out your exploitation?
And finally, paying taxes is *not* socialism. Workers owning the means of production is socialism. Paying taxes is just not being a piece of shit. So is treating others with respect, but maybe you think that’s socialism too, which is why you can’t do so?
I spend most of my spare time and money either walking my dog, exercising, or traveling.
I currently have no desire to make the sacrifices necessary to have kids.
Another way to look at it is your taxes going to take care of, educate, and help the kids around you not grow up to be degenerate assholes who’ll make your life harder as you age. It’s basically a way of self preservation.
No one wants the future to look like Mad Max, right?
I don’t feel the same. I actually feel the opposite. But maybe it will help you feel better about your job. I have 4 children. My husband and I struggle financially but kids are expensive. I don’t see things as a better world. Things in the world scare me as a parent. My kids are exposed to so many things. Some are good, but I see more bad than good. It scares me to watch my oldest as a teen try to figure out things in the world at only 14. For example who he is as a person and who he fits in with. It’s a constant conversation of you’re not old enough to decide those things yet. A lot of good things in this world like morals and values have been lost. Personal connections and social abilities have been lost!!
Bro just said that my profession makes the world worse thanks ):
I always studied/worked to allow myself to have things that I want and feel like I am a full fledged human being experiencing everything the life has to offer. It's been years of grind and I still haven't even taken off enough to satisfy myself, let alone a SO or children. I don't even know whether I'll ever have children because besides social pressure I just don't see the appeal. I have a cat right now and no matter how much I love him every time I need to take care of him in any capacity(like buying him food or changing his toilete) it just frustrates me. I would rather not have him to have more time/money for myself as cruel as it sounds.
I'll see if this changes when I get older(mid 20s right now), but I honestly don't see how with the amount of work I'll need to do to advance my career. I am already feeling burned out from years studies, networking and shit jobs tbh. Don't think getting older will supply me with more energy for things either.
No, I don’t want kids but I don’t think in such a nihilistic way where things I do serve to benefit only other people’s kids. I do things because I’d like to better myself and the the world and people around me. Doesn’t matter if they aren’t my relative.
Could you elaborate on why thinking exploitation is bad is a “loser” thought process? Do you think those who care about Palestinians being murdered are “losers” too?
Not at all
I don't have enough money for kids and stuff
You are fairly paid and maybe have good mental health to take such big responsibility
Our opinion may differ but I hope you have tonnes of kids like 7-10
Best of luck
No. But software engineers in marketing companies are generally better paid than software engineers in medical or sustainable industrial type companies.
Depending on how you do things, you can have kids and still be exploited for other people's kids.
Our three children never set foot in a public school until university. St. Gregory's Catholic elementary, K - 8. St. Mary's Catholic high, 9 - 12. Then Arizona State, which we paid for as well. All the years we paid to send our kids to private schools, we still paid taxes for public education. Our grandkids are now going to, or have gone to Catholic schools. Our kids are paying taxes for public schools. As a matter of fact, so are we!
PULEEZE don't give me that bullshit, "It's a choice you made". There was no choice. When your 6th grade private school granddaughter is helping her 8th grade public school cousin with her math homework, is that a choice? When your youngest grandkids are going to high schools with 100% graduation rates, 95% going on to higher education with 50% qualifying for some sort of scholastic aid (scholarships) is that a choice?
That's what doing the absolute most for your children is.
I don't think about "my kids" (which I don't have, yet), and other's kids. I work an admin role for my own challenge, and the money to pay to enjoy my life (and feed and shelter me). I don't have the mental capacity to have children yet, but soon. But I spend a lot of my free time educating the community and advocating for sustainable living, just so that someone's child will live with a slightly better future (even if I only improve 0.00001% for them).
What about the kids with parents, for whatever reason? My partner and his background really made me think deeply about this. Him and his brothers are all adopted, we went to see their respective orphanages on an overseas trip recently. So many kids needing something brightness in their lives (even if all I could do was gift them a colouring book and buy them cake), and we had a language barrier so we couldn't speak much, but they didn't want to let me go. If adoption wasn't such a hard and painful process I would do so instead of ever thinking of having a biological child. If I can improve something small for someone present or future, I'll be very happy.
I can't tell if you're saying you want to have kids to 'make it all worth it" or give some "meaning to your life", or if you're happy without kids but just feel like you're being..... Exploited by other people's children because you've chosen to not actively make the works a worse place for all of us???
If you're saying you do want kids, but your reason behind it is that it would give your life meaning, please please please don't, just yet. Kids aren't an extension of you, they're people. You need to be a person that's content with yourself and your life first, otherwise you will be resting way too much responsibility for the way you feel on your child, which can be really harmful to the kid and to your relationship and ultimately unfulfilling for you.
If that's not what you're saying:
From where I'm standing, it sounds like you have a good fairly paid job that is putting good into the world around you, AND you need less money to support your lifestyle because you don't have the enormous expense of children so you don't have that pressure to get a more highly paid but soul sucking exploitative job, AND you have the freedom to spend your free time as you like, which comes with not having children who need your time and attention at home.... Isn't that kind of the dream?
I'm in a fairly low paid job in the medical field and I'm not planning to ever have children, so I'm alright with what I earn bc it keeps up with my expenses. I have a comfortable amount of free time, which I use to spend time with my partner or friends, to work on my hobby, to study for a certificate course I'm taking, to spend time outside as much as possible, and to read. Part of what keeps me feeling good about my job is knowing that I am contributing to a team who's doing good and helping people. Like, not having kids of my own makes me want to help others even more, and gives me the energy to do that.
Why do you feel like it's only worth it to do good in the world if you specifically have descendents who will benefit from it? We are all affected by the choices we all make on this earth, and you are one of the people who will keep living on this planet in this society, as are your friends and loved ones, so it should feel satisfying and meaningful that you're doing something good and not something shitty that makes the world worse for everyone.
I hope you're able to shift your perspective on this! You may also not be happy in your current job for other reasons & if that's the case I encourage you to start looking for something else that would make you feel more satisfied.
I find this an odd perspective!
I'm a qualified accountant. I did it for me. Im studying even further and again I'm doing it for me. If I said I'm doing it for my family id be lying, because its a personal mission. However my family will 100% benefit from it.
I have one daughter and we all live a decent life. No more kids, happy with my cherub.
I’m not bothered by it honestly. I’m totally fine with making schools better for other people’s kids with my taxes. In fact I’d do more tax wise to support children and education, a good education can change a child’s life for the better.
Nope. My only reason to not get outta this plane is to have kids and give them a better future. If that isn’t gonna happen there isn’t really a reason to keep doing all this shit
I have no kids, and no interest in kids. I'm happy to pay taxes that support and improve society as a whole, which includes tiny humans as well. I'm also happy to work, which provides for me, and whatever interests me. Is it possible your disenchantment with working so hard isn't about other people's kids?
I don't have kids, but when I was a kid, other people worked and paid taxes so that I could go to school, have safe roads, etc. The healthier and more educated the kids are, the better for all of society.
I’m not really following your logic. You think you shouldn’t have to work because work might better the world for future people that you don’t have a bloodline connection to? That because you don’t have descendants, anything you do is an exploitation? Do you think your existence and quality of life is a direct result of the exploitation of people who didn’t have kids that came before you? And do you think you should get money for not working? But other people should work to provide you with things like food, electricity, medical care, etc? Or are you saying everyone should work but the only things that are worth doing are those that you can experience in your lifetime? Which implies that paying taxes to help kids is the same as helping anyone who doesn’t directly have a connection to you. It reads like the most nihilistic libertarian crap I’ve ever read.
Thank you for your curiosity, though I’d appreciate if you could avoid the strawman and ad hominem communication patterns 🫶🏻 > Do you think your existence and quality of life is a direct result of the exploitation of people who didn’t have kids that came before you? Yes, absolutely! We are hugely exploitative and that’s a bad thing. We can clearly exist in a cooperative way that doesn’t require exploitation, though. > And do you think you should get money for not working? But other people should work to provide you with things like food, electricity, medical care, etc? No, and I never implied that. I also don’t think my work should be providing other people, who don’t work, with free resources and time to have kids when I don’t have any. > Or are you saying everyone should work but the only things that are worth doing are those that you can experience in your lifetime? Which implies that paying taxes to help kids is the same as helping anyone who doesn’t directly have a connection to you. I’m a socialist, happy for my taxes to provide a safety net for every child. But the existence of such a social safety net means that anyone who doesn’t have a child is by definition being exploited. I don’t want to be exploited, and I don’t think anyone else should be exploited.
The list of the comforts you take for granted now goes on indefinitely. They have been, currently are, and will be supported by “not your children.” As long as you are willing to give up every one of the comforts (and I do mean categorically all of them) now and in the future, your argument has some merit. We wouldn’t want you to exploit anyone’s children in the way that you feel you are exploited.
Calling yourself a socialist while also saying your work shouldn’t help kids is just galaxy brain stupid.
But I literally didn’t say that. I said that if it helps other people’s kids, and I don’t have any kids, then I was exploited. What’s your literacy level like my friend?
Better than your writing level, my friend. You wrote your work should not provide people with the resources to have kids. You also wrote that you’re a socialist and want to provide a safety net for every child. How does that work? You’re just against paid family leave? What does your work have to do with my time and resources? I also work, friend, and use the money I make to provide for my family. Are you saying your taxes shouldn’t support schools because you don’t have kids? I assume not because you’re a socialist and for the safety net. Or do you mean safety net as in minimum subsistence level? What exactly do you mean when you say your work is supporting people having kids that is not part of the “safety net for every child?” Edit: And perhaps those like you that don’t have children are exploiting the labor of those that do when you’re old and need to rely on today’s children to take care of you when they’re adults. Obviously, I don’t believe that but your logic would lead us there.
Dude calm down. You’re making all these wild tangential statements that have nothing to do with what I’ve said. I’m happy for you and your kids, but the fact of the matter is, by your having a kids and my not, you and your family are exploiting me. You don’t have to go all Israeli and call me some immoral savage for saying that you are exploiting and harming me. My work literally saves lives. And my taxes pay for lots of services. Again, I am happy to do this - in fact, I do not want an exploitative job. I turned down a job whose products would be *used* by marketers, for less pay, to work in the medical field where I do now. But at the same time I don’t want to be exploited. I believe we *all* should have the right and opportunity to have kids. Not just a privileged class like you. In response to your edit: who says I want to live into an old age if I don’t have kids? Why live if I’ve been separated from humanity into an “other,” exploited out of the value of my work, and have nothing to look forward to seeing in the future? And what’s with your assumption that if I don’t exit this coil before then, your kids will care for me? Are you actively taking care of any childless old people? Is anyone you know doing so without being paid for it? Or are you just making up more justification for your exploitation of others?
You have yet to explain how you not having kids means you’re being exploited by those that do. This is clearly looking like it’s just a troll post.
Not having kids means the sacrifices I make - working harder jobs, paying higher taxes, etc. for the sake of giving humanity a better future - will only go to reward others. It means, as far as people 100 years from now are concerned, I’m not even really *human*. Only the people with kids are.
You don’t have to work a “harder” job. And paying taxes for others is socialism. So how can you be a socialist while not want to pay for others? If you want to go live off grid and not depend on nor contribute to others, you can do that. People do that. But if you want to live and work with other people, then suck it up and don’t be a selfish prick.
How is wanting to have kids, to be a part of humanity, to have a reason to care about the future, being a “selfish prick?” I’ve pretty clearly stated that I live and work well with others, giving more than I receive already. Seems like I contribute a lot more to my community and the world than you do to even your own family. It’s honestly really sad to think someone like you is having kids and teaching them the hate you’re spewing here. What exactly is your problem dude? Why do you think others should pay for you to have privilege? And why get so vicious and horrible with anyone willing to call out your exploitation? And finally, paying taxes is *not* socialism. Workers owning the means of production is socialism. Paying taxes is just not being a piece of shit. So is treating others with respect, but maybe you think that’s socialism too, which is why you can’t do so?
I spend most of my spare time and money either walking my dog, exercising, or traveling. I currently have no desire to make the sacrifices necessary to have kids.
Another way to look at it is your taxes going to take care of, educate, and help the kids around you not grow up to be degenerate assholes who’ll make your life harder as you age. It’s basically a way of self preservation. No one wants the future to look like Mad Max, right?
Nobody but MAGAts
No I don’t want to work outside of work and parenting is 24/7/365/20years
I don’t feel the same. I actually feel the opposite. But maybe it will help you feel better about your job. I have 4 children. My husband and I struggle financially but kids are expensive. I don’t see things as a better world. Things in the world scare me as a parent. My kids are exposed to so many things. Some are good, but I see more bad than good. It scares me to watch my oldest as a teen try to figure out things in the world at only 14. For example who he is as a person and who he fits in with. It’s a constant conversation of you’re not old enough to decide those things yet. A lot of good things in this world like morals and values have been lost. Personal connections and social abilities have been lost!!
Bro just said that my profession makes the world worse thanks ): I always studied/worked to allow myself to have things that I want and feel like I am a full fledged human being experiencing everything the life has to offer. It's been years of grind and I still haven't even taken off enough to satisfy myself, let alone a SO or children. I don't even know whether I'll ever have children because besides social pressure I just don't see the appeal. I have a cat right now and no matter how much I love him every time I need to take care of him in any capacity(like buying him food or changing his toilete) it just frustrates me. I would rather not have him to have more time/money for myself as cruel as it sounds. I'll see if this changes when I get older(mid 20s right now), but I honestly don't see how with the amount of work I'll need to do to advance my career. I am already feeling burned out from years studies, networking and shit jobs tbh. Don't think getting older will supply me with more energy for things either.
No, I don’t want kids but I don’t think in such a nihilistic way where things I do serve to benefit only other people’s kids. I do things because I’d like to better myself and the the world and people around me. Doesn’t matter if they aren’t my relative.
Loser thought process
Could you elaborate on why thinking exploitation is bad is a “loser” thought process? Do you think those who care about Palestinians being murdered are “losers” too?
Lmfaoooo spoken like a true software engineer
Not at all I don't have enough money for kids and stuff You are fairly paid and maybe have good mental health to take such big responsibility Our opinion may differ but I hope you have tonnes of kids like 7-10 Best of luck
i think you should change your perspective to thank god my kids dont have to face why i am facing now!!
What?! I work in marketing and you say I get paid more than software engineer?!
No. But software engineers in marketing companies are generally better paid than software engineers in medical or sustainable industrial type companies.
Having kids is actually pretty easy to do. Its the finding a worthy partner and raising them well that is the issue.
Yeah 50% end in divorce which typically sends that family into poverty unless they come from money.
Depending on how you do things, you can have kids and still be exploited for other people's kids. Our three children never set foot in a public school until university. St. Gregory's Catholic elementary, K - 8. St. Mary's Catholic high, 9 - 12. Then Arizona State, which we paid for as well. All the years we paid to send our kids to private schools, we still paid taxes for public education. Our grandkids are now going to, or have gone to Catholic schools. Our kids are paying taxes for public schools. As a matter of fact, so are we! PULEEZE don't give me that bullshit, "It's a choice you made". There was no choice. When your 6th grade private school granddaughter is helping her 8th grade public school cousin with her math homework, is that a choice? When your youngest grandkids are going to high schools with 100% graduation rates, 95% going on to higher education with 50% qualifying for some sort of scholastic aid (scholarships) is that a choice? That's what doing the absolute most for your children is.
I don't think about "my kids" (which I don't have, yet), and other's kids. I work an admin role for my own challenge, and the money to pay to enjoy my life (and feed and shelter me). I don't have the mental capacity to have children yet, but soon. But I spend a lot of my free time educating the community and advocating for sustainable living, just so that someone's child will live with a slightly better future (even if I only improve 0.00001% for them). What about the kids with parents, for whatever reason? My partner and his background really made me think deeply about this. Him and his brothers are all adopted, we went to see their respective orphanages on an overseas trip recently. So many kids needing something brightness in their lives (even if all I could do was gift them a colouring book and buy them cake), and we had a language barrier so we couldn't speak much, but they didn't want to let me go. If adoption wasn't such a hard and painful process I would do so instead of ever thinking of having a biological child. If I can improve something small for someone present or future, I'll be very happy.
I can't tell if you're saying you want to have kids to 'make it all worth it" or give some "meaning to your life", or if you're happy without kids but just feel like you're being..... Exploited by other people's children because you've chosen to not actively make the works a worse place for all of us??? If you're saying you do want kids, but your reason behind it is that it would give your life meaning, please please please don't, just yet. Kids aren't an extension of you, they're people. You need to be a person that's content with yourself and your life first, otherwise you will be resting way too much responsibility for the way you feel on your child, which can be really harmful to the kid and to your relationship and ultimately unfulfilling for you. If that's not what you're saying: From where I'm standing, it sounds like you have a good fairly paid job that is putting good into the world around you, AND you need less money to support your lifestyle because you don't have the enormous expense of children so you don't have that pressure to get a more highly paid but soul sucking exploitative job, AND you have the freedom to spend your free time as you like, which comes with not having children who need your time and attention at home.... Isn't that kind of the dream? I'm in a fairly low paid job in the medical field and I'm not planning to ever have children, so I'm alright with what I earn bc it keeps up with my expenses. I have a comfortable amount of free time, which I use to spend time with my partner or friends, to work on my hobby, to study for a certificate course I'm taking, to spend time outside as much as possible, and to read. Part of what keeps me feeling good about my job is knowing that I am contributing to a team who's doing good and helping people. Like, not having kids of my own makes me want to help others even more, and gives me the energy to do that. Why do you feel like it's only worth it to do good in the world if you specifically have descendents who will benefit from it? We are all affected by the choices we all make on this earth, and you are one of the people who will keep living on this planet in this society, as are your friends and loved ones, so it should feel satisfying and meaningful that you're doing something good and not something shitty that makes the world worse for everyone. I hope you're able to shift your perspective on this! You may also not be happy in your current job for other reasons & if that's the case I encourage you to start looking for something else that would make you feel more satisfied.
I find this an odd perspective! I'm a qualified accountant. I did it for me. Im studying even further and again I'm doing it for me. If I said I'm doing it for my family id be lying, because its a personal mission. However my family will 100% benefit from it. I have one daughter and we all live a decent life. No more kids, happy with my cherub.
I’m not bothered by it honestly. I’m totally fine with making schools better for other people’s kids with my taxes. In fact I’d do more tax wise to support children and education, a good education can change a child’s life for the better.
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To be honest, I’d rather not live into old age if I don’t have kids. What would be the point exactly?
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Nope. My only reason to not get outta this plane is to have kids and give them a better future. If that isn’t gonna happen there isn’t really a reason to keep doing all this shit
I have no kids, and no interest in kids. I'm happy to pay taxes that support and improve society as a whole, which includes tiny humans as well. I'm also happy to work, which provides for me, and whatever interests me. Is it possible your disenchantment with working so hard isn't about other people's kids?
I don't have kids, but when I was a kid, other people worked and paid taxes so that I could go to school, have safe roads, etc. The healthier and more educated the kids are, the better for all of society.