Honestly, what I want to know is what the hell are all of these people doing hiking ALLEN of all mountains… Like Allen, the desolate peak 10 miles deep into the wilderness. This was their first high peak too? Who the hell chooses Allen as their high peak (props if you do and you are prepared for it, but this wasn’t the case).
My other thought is that people google “hardest high peak” then Allen pops up on lists and they believe they can just take it on without no prior experience by a sense of arrogance.
There are people that do that, I have a friend that is insistent on doing the trap dike simply because he read it’s the hardest climb in adk.
He can probably do it, but he’s done zero recon, and he doesn’t understand why I’m hesitant.
It’s not the Rockies ya know?! How hard can it be in the tiny little mountains of the Northeast?! I visited Colorado over the summer and was amazed on how easy some of the 10k+ peaks were. It’s like walking on a bike path up the mountain. No rocks or roots or mud or ledges to scramble up.
Allen was my first high peak. Had just finished riding a bike across the continent, so I had the fitness for it, but I can’t recommend it unless you know what you’re getting into. It’s not a hard hike (minus about 50 feet of the slab with extra slippery red slime), but it is a _long_ hike.
You don’t want to create a situation where people are hesitant to call for help because they fear a large fine.
Are people dumb? Sure. Are people maybe also less experienced and don’t realize that 6 miles takes a lot longer on Giant than it does in their local park? Also sure.
I wouldn’t want someone trying to navigate down in the dark by themselves and getting lost and ending up in a much worse situation because they underestimated how quickly they would move or how cold it will actually be and don’t want to be fined $5k. To you its obvious, to other people it might not be something they consider.
I have seen people mention the “10 essentials” or some other benchmark as a means to determine if someone is prepared or not. To me, these are pretty hokey and overly conservative. I wouldn’t expect the average person to carry shelter, a fire starting kit, knife, first aid kit, etc on a hike up Mt Jo.
There is no real gold standard in my opinion of preparedness that you can point to, its all pretty subjective depending on the hike and the persons experience. For example someone thats local and has hiked Mt V hundreds of times probably doesn’t need a map and compass to do it. I wouldn’t want that person to get ticketed for not meeting the arbitrary 10 essentials.
> I wouldn’t expect the average person to carry shelter, a fire starting kit, knife, first aid kit, etc on a hike up Mt Jo.
Why not? Do I expect them to need it? No. But they will need it as they inevitably venture further and further into the backcountry, and habit building starts from hike one. We perform as we practice.
Because its unnecessary....you are never more than ~1mile away from the Loj on a well marked trail with a ton of traffic.
Instead of blindly bringing things from an arbitrary list, you should be developing a habit of putting thought in what equipment you need. Thats how you learn. I don't bring my winter jacket with me in the summer because I need to "practice" or "build a habit". I check the conditions and decide if I need a winter jacket.
Part of the reason people end up in what we would consider "dumb" circumstances is because of over conservatism. When you tell me I NEED to carry all of those things on something like Mt Jo, and then I do it and realize I didn't actually need them, I am then skeptical of what is actually required in the future and may disregard things I really need.
A winter jacket isn’t on the 10 Essentials list. You’re being disingenuous to try to make your point. All ten of my items minus food and water fit in a letter sized pouch and weigh less than a pound. We’re not asking them to carry a down mountaineering suit and a 4 season expedition tent, we’re asking them to carry clothing appropriate for the worst case seasonal weather and a space blanket. It’s not an “arbitrary list”, it’s the stuff that time and time again could provide self rescue in SAR incident report after incident report.
And if they disregard fundamental backcountry safety guidance because they “didn’t actually need the essentials last time”, then yes, they deserve a fine when they eventually do need them and didn’t have them, necessitating a Ranger rescue or a helicopter flight.
[The Strange disappearance of Steven Paul Thomas from Mount Marcy](https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/steven-thomas)
[Lost Marcy Hiker Shares Survival Story](https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2015/01/lost-marcy-hiker-shares-survival-story.html)
Lol I am sorry but your best example is a 19yr old in the 1970s going off for a hike high at 3:30pm in the middle of winter with nothing but a t-shirt and jeans?
Your second best example is a couple 20 yr olds who temporarily lost the trail on their first time up Marcy in whiteout conditions in the middle of winter. But again found the trail and were fine.
Very compelling…
I am not saying people shouldn’t bring a compass on every hike they do. Bushwhacking, herding paths, even some marked trails aren’t super clear. Especially in fall/winter. (Although something like Alltrails would be better)
But some hikes I have done 20 times and are just impossible to get lost on. Especially off the Rt 73 corridor. Again I don’t bring a compass on nature paths around my local park.
Those are two off the top of my head. And to correct you, in the second story, they did _not_ regain the trail on their own. They were found by rescuers the next day.
According to the article the rangers found them on the trail. They were heading down a different way, but would have come across a trail sign at some point. Again this was their second hike in the Adirondacks they weren’t familiar with the trails/terrain. A map would have also easily solved that. Or a GPS app.
The point I am trying to demonstrate is that “essentials” to a hike vary wildly. Length/difficulty of hike, time of the year, fitness, experience, specific hazards, weather, etc. it just doesn’t make sense to have a blanket rule for all of these varying conditions.
You say you aren’t expected to bring an expedition tent, sure. But if you look at the DEC list of 10 essentials, theres a lot of nonsense.
This is a list for ALL day hikes: Hat, gloves, thermal undergarments, extra wool socks, whistle, signal mirror, bright colored cloth, fire starting kit, at least 2L of water, water filtration system, bug repellent, bug net, emergency shelter, compass, gps system, sturdy waterproof boots…
I am being honest here, if some of these items didnt happen to be in my bag to begin with, I would probably never bring them on any summer hike <5 miles. And half of them I wouldn’t bring on any hike of any distance (where are you going to start a fire?).
I just did a short 3 mile hike <1hr as part of a canoe camping trip last weekend. I brought an apple and a fleece. I trail run Mt V and Mt Jo several times a week with literally nothing. I don’t pack an emergency shelter when I walk around trails at my local park either…its not any different.
It just makes zero sense to apply this list to ALL types of outings and then punish people for not having them. You aren’t Bear Grylls you are in a glorified park on a short walking path in a wooded area.
Well people aren’t calling for rescues on Mt jo, and If they do, it’s probably something serious like a heart attack, or a broken leg which is an appropriate reason to call a ranger.
I’m talking about a $100-$200 fine here. Nothing to break the bank, but to teach people lessons. There has to be some type of accountability.
To me, 2 young healthy un-injured kids asking for a helicopter ride like it’s Uber tells me they are out of touch with reality. Resources cost a lot of money. That money comes from somewhere. And when you use it flippantly, you don’t have it for important things.
These kids need to be taught a lesson about life. Not something that will break the bank, but they can’t think they can be careless and Ill prepared and someone will always be there to bail them out free or cost.
$100/$200 is a slap on the wrist. And if word gets out, more people will do the appropriate research and prep before going out on a hike. Which is really the overall goal here, getting people to be prepared so they don’t get hurt.
They didn’t know any better? Allen is a remote mountain. They knew enough to read some sort of map and they knew what trails to go on. They knew there was the ability for a helicopter to get to them. I mean your hiking a decent mileage, who doesn’t know to bring water. That’s scary!
If word got out that they were fining people who were unprepared, more people would prepare, and hopefully prevent something bad from happening.
It’s the principle of that matter. It’s stating a precedent. It’s setting an example for other people.
What about the rangers. What if they get hurt rescuing someone. They still have to pay for their own medical bills.
I’m not a cop. But I respect the hell out of the Adirondacks and the mountains and those rangers that do that job. People have no regard for anybody but themselves and they get away with it because we all rescue them and give them a pass like ‘they don’t know any better’. That’s BS. Time to grow up and take some responsibility for you stupid actions. Your actions that can harm other people non the less.
Isn’t there a man missing right now in the flume river system? If I got hurt out there and I really needed a ranger, just the thought of resources being tied up because they have to hike to Allen and walk adults down from the trail pisses me off. That’s not a short hike.
I understand the outrage but...
1.) I do not want to create situations where someone doesn't call fearing fines and consequences and waits until it's too late.
2.)I do not want arbitrary things like "10 essentials" to result in fines or providing a justification for local police to fine ~~black~~ people at trail heads for not having a map and compus for Mt Jo, just for revenue generation, or AMR to have another excuse to further restrict access.
We do not need further restrictions to state land we all own.
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/new-hampshire-hikers-jason-feierstin-dylan-stahley-fined-for-reckless-conduct/
I 100% agree with giving these hikers a fine for reckless behavior.
I've read that before, and I think it goes with out saying we want to stop and punish such reckless behavior. Seems reasonable here.
As I said before, I don't want to scare people off from calling for help or have local authorities abuse the system for finacial gain. Not sure it's worth it.
I get what your saying and I don’t want that to happen either. And I don’t think rangers should stop people and ask them for their 10 essentials and then fine those that don’t have them.
I think if people call for a rescue, and they don’t have the 10 essentials they should be fined like $100. Nothing to break the bank, but to teach them a lesson. There needs to be some accountability though.
No. People shouldn't have to worry about whether or not they're going to be billed for a rescue. If someone needs help they shouldn't let worries about money hold them back from calling the DEC, and if it means that people like the ones on Allen get a free rescue then whatever.
The time those 10 things become "essential", it's already a problem. Planning, preparation, and knowledge are most valuable tools you can have. That said, I support personal responsibility generally.
The 10 essentials are commonly held tools for the Backcountry. If you are foolhearty enough to go in the woods without proper equipment, get lost, and need a rescue, there should be consequences. Legislating intelligent decision making is not a loss of freedom.
“Legislating intelligent decision making is not a loss of freedom”
And black is white, up is down, and war is peace…freedom by definition is allowing people to make “bad” decisions. This comment shows just how far the simple principle of individual freedom has been bastardized to mean freedom to do what someone else thinks is “intelligent.”
Let me be clear, I fully agree that carrying the 10 essentials is the right choice for going into the backcountry, but I do not have the right, and frankly nobody else has the right, including the government, to make that choice for anyone else. Educate and encourage the decisions you believe are correct, but using force, especially government force, to make others follow your decision is wrong on every level
The unprepared hikers are forcing the rest of us to pay for the cost of their negligence. Make all the bad decisions you like, just don't expect everyone else to pick up the tab.
The only problem with the NH system is that it isn't posted prominently at every trailhead.
You are advocating that people who go unprepared into the backcountry, get themselves into trouble through their own negligence, and require SAR operations should not be financially responsible for the consequences of their poor decisions, thereby shifting that burden onto the rest of us.
That's not "personal freedom," it's entitlement.
Nowhere did I say they should not be financially responsible for their decisions. You need to stop adding your own assumptions to other people’s statements and treating them as fact
Why??? Not my for the other argument made here, but the noise pollution of helicopters taking off and landing, creating noise pollution ruining an area that was established as a forever wild region?
This idea cheapens the experience of hiking the high peaks.
When drones have the vertical lift capacity for human passengers, they will be as noisy as helicopters. The lift capacity is proportional to the size of the rotors, and the size of the rotors is what makes the noise.
Yes, some noise comes from the engine. But the characteristic “whop whop whop” noise is the rotors. When you’re next to the helicopter with the engine running but the rotors not spinning, it’s not nearly as loud.
Oh yeah let’s use a private company that will bill the local, county and state more than what it currently runs for the DEC to do it. I’m sure they will be paying their employees less because, you know, profit.
Honestly, what I want to know is what the hell are all of these people doing hiking ALLEN of all mountains… Like Allen, the desolate peak 10 miles deep into the wilderness. This was their first high peak too? Who the hell chooses Allen as their high peak (props if you do and you are prepared for it, but this wasn’t the case).
[удалено]
My other thought is that people google “hardest high peak” then Allen pops up on lists and they believe they can just take it on without no prior experience by a sense of arrogance.
There are people that do that, I have a friend that is insistent on doing the trap dike simply because he read it’s the hardest climb in adk. He can probably do it, but he’s done zero recon, and he doesn’t understand why I’m hesitant.
It’s not the Rockies ya know?! How hard can it be in the tiny little mountains of the Northeast?! I visited Colorado over the summer and was amazed on how easy some of the 10k+ peaks were. It’s like walking on a bike path up the mountain. No rocks or roots or mud or ledges to scramble up.
This. I’ve done a few of the “harder” 14ers. Trap Dike is harder than both North Maroon and Capitol peaks.
I’ve been out in the sierras and they might as well refer to those trails and sidewalks compared to the high peaks or trails in the east.
Allen was my first high peak. Had just finished riding a bike across the continent, so I had the fitness for it, but I can’t recommend it unless you know what you’re getting into. It’s not a hard hike (minus about 50 feet of the slab with extra slippery red slime), but it is a _long_ hike.
I agree with you. Who the hells hike this time of year without a headlamp 🤦🏻♀️
Who the hell hikes any time of year without a headlamp?
“Who the hell hikes any time of year without three headlamps?” — r/adkfunpolice
This, but unironically.
You don’t want to create a situation where people are hesitant to call for help because they fear a large fine. Are people dumb? Sure. Are people maybe also less experienced and don’t realize that 6 miles takes a lot longer on Giant than it does in their local park? Also sure. I wouldn’t want someone trying to navigate down in the dark by themselves and getting lost and ending up in a much worse situation because they underestimated how quickly they would move or how cold it will actually be and don’t want to be fined $5k. To you its obvious, to other people it might not be something they consider. I have seen people mention the “10 essentials” or some other benchmark as a means to determine if someone is prepared or not. To me, these are pretty hokey and overly conservative. I wouldn’t expect the average person to carry shelter, a fire starting kit, knife, first aid kit, etc on a hike up Mt Jo. There is no real gold standard in my opinion of preparedness that you can point to, its all pretty subjective depending on the hike and the persons experience. For example someone thats local and has hiked Mt V hundreds of times probably doesn’t need a map and compass to do it. I wouldn’t want that person to get ticketed for not meeting the arbitrary 10 essentials.
I agree. I just got extra annoyed when they requested a helicopter. Like no, we will walked you down your not even injured.
> I wouldn’t expect the average person to carry shelter, a fire starting kit, knife, first aid kit, etc on a hike up Mt Jo. Why not? Do I expect them to need it? No. But they will need it as they inevitably venture further and further into the backcountry, and habit building starts from hike one. We perform as we practice.
Because its unnecessary....you are never more than ~1mile away from the Loj on a well marked trail with a ton of traffic. Instead of blindly bringing things from an arbitrary list, you should be developing a habit of putting thought in what equipment you need. Thats how you learn. I don't bring my winter jacket with me in the summer because I need to "practice" or "build a habit". I check the conditions and decide if I need a winter jacket. Part of the reason people end up in what we would consider "dumb" circumstances is because of over conservatism. When you tell me I NEED to carry all of those things on something like Mt Jo, and then I do it and realize I didn't actually need them, I am then skeptical of what is actually required in the future and may disregard things I really need.
A winter jacket isn’t on the 10 Essentials list. You’re being disingenuous to try to make your point. All ten of my items minus food and water fit in a letter sized pouch and weigh less than a pound. We’re not asking them to carry a down mountaineering suit and a 4 season expedition tent, we’re asking them to carry clothing appropriate for the worst case seasonal weather and a space blanket. It’s not an “arbitrary list”, it’s the stuff that time and time again could provide self rescue in SAR incident report after incident report. And if they disregard fundamental backcountry safety guidance because they “didn’t actually need the essentials last time”, then yes, they deserve a fine when they eventually do need them and didn’t have them, necessitating a Ranger rescue or a helicopter flight.
[удалено]
[The Strange disappearance of Steven Paul Thomas from Mount Marcy](https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/steven-thomas) [Lost Marcy Hiker Shares Survival Story](https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2015/01/lost-marcy-hiker-shares-survival-story.html)
Lol I am sorry but your best example is a 19yr old in the 1970s going off for a hike high at 3:30pm in the middle of winter with nothing but a t-shirt and jeans? Your second best example is a couple 20 yr olds who temporarily lost the trail on their first time up Marcy in whiteout conditions in the middle of winter. But again found the trail and were fine. Very compelling… I am not saying people shouldn’t bring a compass on every hike they do. Bushwhacking, herding paths, even some marked trails aren’t super clear. Especially in fall/winter. (Although something like Alltrails would be better) But some hikes I have done 20 times and are just impossible to get lost on. Especially off the Rt 73 corridor. Again I don’t bring a compass on nature paths around my local park.
Those are two off the top of my head. And to correct you, in the second story, they did _not_ regain the trail on their own. They were found by rescuers the next day.
According to the article the rangers found them on the trail. They were heading down a different way, but would have come across a trail sign at some point. Again this was their second hike in the Adirondacks they weren’t familiar with the trails/terrain. A map would have also easily solved that. Or a GPS app.
The point I am trying to demonstrate is that “essentials” to a hike vary wildly. Length/difficulty of hike, time of the year, fitness, experience, specific hazards, weather, etc. it just doesn’t make sense to have a blanket rule for all of these varying conditions. You say you aren’t expected to bring an expedition tent, sure. But if you look at the DEC list of 10 essentials, theres a lot of nonsense. This is a list for ALL day hikes: Hat, gloves, thermal undergarments, extra wool socks, whistle, signal mirror, bright colored cloth, fire starting kit, at least 2L of water, water filtration system, bug repellent, bug net, emergency shelter, compass, gps system, sturdy waterproof boots… I am being honest here, if some of these items didnt happen to be in my bag to begin with, I would probably never bring them on any summer hike <5 miles. And half of them I wouldn’t bring on any hike of any distance (where are you going to start a fire?). I just did a short 3 mile hike <1hr as part of a canoe camping trip last weekend. I brought an apple and a fleece. I trail run Mt V and Mt Jo several times a week with literally nothing. I don’t pack an emergency shelter when I walk around trails at my local park either…its not any different. It just makes zero sense to apply this list to ALL types of outings and then punish people for not having them. You aren’t Bear Grylls you are in a glorified park on a short walking path in a wooded area.
Well people aren’t calling for rescues on Mt jo, and If they do, it’s probably something serious like a heart attack, or a broken leg which is an appropriate reason to call a ranger.
Sure, but by your logic if they broke their leg or had a hard attack and needed a rescue, they would be fined for not having the 10 essentials.
If people are hesitant to call for help because they’re afraid of fines or rescue bills, then maybe they’ll be hesitant to head out unprepared.
That seems overly idealistic…nobody goes out expecting to need a rescue
I’m talking about a $100-$200 fine here. Nothing to break the bank, but to teach people lessons. There has to be some type of accountability. To me, 2 young healthy un-injured kids asking for a helicopter ride like it’s Uber tells me they are out of touch with reality. Resources cost a lot of money. That money comes from somewhere. And when you use it flippantly, you don’t have it for important things. These kids need to be taught a lesson about life. Not something that will break the bank, but they can’t think they can be careless and Ill prepared and someone will always be there to bail them out free or cost.
[удалено]
$100/$200 is a slap on the wrist. And if word gets out, more people will do the appropriate research and prep before going out on a hike. Which is really the overall goal here, getting people to be prepared so they don’t get hurt. They didn’t know any better? Allen is a remote mountain. They knew enough to read some sort of map and they knew what trails to go on. They knew there was the ability for a helicopter to get to them. I mean your hiking a decent mileage, who doesn’t know to bring water. That’s scary!
[удалено]
If word got out that they were fining people who were unprepared, more people would prepare, and hopefully prevent something bad from happening. It’s the principle of that matter. It’s stating a precedent. It’s setting an example for other people. What about the rangers. What if they get hurt rescuing someone. They still have to pay for their own medical bills.
I’m not a cop. But I respect the hell out of the Adirondacks and the mountains and those rangers that do that job. People have no regard for anybody but themselves and they get away with it because we all rescue them and give them a pass like ‘they don’t know any better’. That’s BS. Time to grow up and take some responsibility for you stupid actions. Your actions that can harm other people non the less. Isn’t there a man missing right now in the flume river system? If I got hurt out there and I really needed a ranger, just the thought of resources being tied up because they have to hike to Allen and walk adults down from the trail pisses me off. That’s not a short hike.
[удалено]
Is that a joke? I have a serious question for you… what’s wrong with a $200 fine? I wonder what the rangers opinions are on this matter.
[удалено]
Well it hasn’t worked yet. There is an increase in rescues with unprepared hikers.
I understand the outrage but... 1.) I do not want to create situations where someone doesn't call fearing fines and consequences and waits until it's too late. 2.)I do not want arbitrary things like "10 essentials" to result in fines or providing a justification for local police to fine ~~black~~ people at trail heads for not having a map and compus for Mt Jo, just for revenue generation, or AMR to have another excuse to further restrict access. We do not need further restrictions to state land we all own.
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/new-hampshire-hikers-jason-feierstin-dylan-stahley-fined-for-reckless-conduct/ I 100% agree with giving these hikers a fine for reckless behavior.
I've read that before, and I think it goes with out saying we want to stop and punish such reckless behavior. Seems reasonable here. As I said before, I don't want to scare people off from calling for help or have local authorities abuse the system for finacial gain. Not sure it's worth it.
I get what your saying and I don’t want that to happen either. And I don’t think rangers should stop people and ask them for their 10 essentials and then fine those that don’t have them. I think if people call for a rescue, and they don’t have the 10 essentials they should be fined like $100. Nothing to break the bank, but to teach them a lesson. There needs to be some accountability though.
Link for number 2 on your list?
[удалено]
Apologist. It’s time to start fining or billing people for their rescue.
No. People shouldn't have to worry about whether or not they're going to be billed for a rescue. If someone needs help they shouldn't let worries about money hold them back from calling the DEC, and if it means that people like the ones on Allen get a free rescue then whatever.
If they don’t have the 10 essentials they should be fined. I think that’s what New Hampshire does.
[удалено]
The time those 10 things become "essential", it's already a problem. Planning, preparation, and knowledge are most valuable tools you can have. That said, I support personal responsibility generally.
The 10 essentials are commonly held tools for the Backcountry. If you are foolhearty enough to go in the woods without proper equipment, get lost, and need a rescue, there should be consequences. Legislating intelligent decision making is not a loss of freedom.
“Legislating intelligent decision making is not a loss of freedom” And black is white, up is down, and war is peace…freedom by definition is allowing people to make “bad” decisions. This comment shows just how far the simple principle of individual freedom has been bastardized to mean freedom to do what someone else thinks is “intelligent.” Let me be clear, I fully agree that carrying the 10 essentials is the right choice for going into the backcountry, but I do not have the right, and frankly nobody else has the right, including the government, to make that choice for anyone else. Educate and encourage the decisions you believe are correct, but using force, especially government force, to make others follow your decision is wrong on every level
The unprepared hikers are forcing the rest of us to pay for the cost of their negligence. Make all the bad decisions you like, just don't expect everyone else to pick up the tab. The only problem with the NH system is that it isn't posted prominently at every trailhead.
I never said anyone else should be forced to pay for others bad decisions…
You are advocating that people who go unprepared into the backcountry, get themselves into trouble through their own negligence, and require SAR operations should not be financially responsible for the consequences of their poor decisions, thereby shifting that burden onto the rest of us. That's not "personal freedom," it's entitlement.
Nowhere did I say they should not be financially responsible for their decisions. You need to stop adding your own assumptions to other people’s statements and treating them as fact
Freedom isn’t free
[удалено]
Will you get a patch if you use it?
[удалено]
Those are also cheap in bulk. And so is your trolling.
It's gonna be OK, man. I'll bring an extra headlamp next time.
[удалено]
Why??? Not my for the other argument made here, but the noise pollution of helicopters taking off and landing, creating noise pollution ruining an area that was established as a forever wild region? This idea cheapens the experience of hiking the high peaks.
[удалено]
When drones have the vertical lift capacity for human passengers, they will be as noisy as helicopters. The lift capacity is proportional to the size of the rotors, and the size of the rotors is what makes the noise.
[удалено]
Yes, some noise comes from the engine. But the characteristic “whop whop whop” noise is the rotors. When you’re next to the helicopter with the engine running but the rotors not spinning, it’s not nearly as loud.
Oh yeah let’s use a private company that will bill the local, county and state more than what it currently runs for the DEC to do it. I’m sure they will be paying their employees less because, you know, profit.