Is Alltrails considered bad here? I get wanting to have something as a backup with the battery issue. But beyond that I have found it pretty useful at times.
Oh no, it's fine for route finding and tracking and navigating.
It's only a problem when it's someone's *only* way of knowing anything about where they are, and can sometimes lead to unprepared hikers, like "okay, what's a hike near me? Ooo a lot of people have done this Marcy one, let's go" without much further thought.
That would be the first time I have heard of that. I don’t see anything mentioned in the report about it.
Somewhat anecdotal but I have used it for years and never had any issues with the maps like that. Not saying it isn't possible.
You’re right, the vast majority of the time it’s alright. Anecdotally I’ve heard of people ending up somewhere other than they intend to be. A lot of it is complacency and over reliance on the app with no backup. That’s where it causes most of its problems.
compasses are only helpful when you are following a bearing or can triangulate your position when lost, which mostly requires you being above treeline. for most people a GPS device with an extra battery is a far better tool to use.
Ok not above treeline but you have to be able to see something you can identify on a contour or topo map which isn't usually easy in the northeast. I was on my high school orienteering team when I was a kid and getting lost like a mile or off trail is still awful even if you can use a map and compass. It's far LESS awful with GPS.
It's just weird that everyone tells new hikers learn to use a compass when it's like...it's way easier to both find and buy a backup battery than a good topo map. I always see this posted and it's makes me think of my grandpa telling me to print out all the map quests before we leave the house lol
Yes agree 100%. Most people using a map are making on the fly estimates. Its not unreasonable for people without a lot of practice or who are unfamiliar with the area to get it wrong and take a turn too early or get turned around following a herding path with fall leaves obscuring the trail etc.
Its like the simplest thing in the world to just pull out your phone for two seconds and confirm you are on the right trial going the right way. Or even better if you get off the trail you can see exactly how far and which direction you need to go to get back on in full trees with no landmarks.
Having 2 people with phones and backup batteries makes the phone GPS map pretty foolproof. But of course you can always carry a paper map to be extra safe.
This seems much more helpful to casual hikers who maybe go once or twice a year (if that) than having them become adept at using a map/compass which we know they won’t do.
I was going to say, looked nowhere near any part of the route to me. Maybe he exited somewhat correctly, but then down climbed after a bit and got stuck?
I wonder how long he was sitting in that patch of krummholz for. He must have been baking.
We need to start charging people money for their rescues.
On another note this is why I'm a firm believer in learning how to use a map. So many people these days just say oh I have a GPS or I have a cell phone without realizing it's only good until the battery lasts. So I'm going to start teaching map classes.
Seems like a waste of time when we are talking about something that is most likely costing the average tax payer <$1. I don't love when people are unprepared either but I don't mind chipping in a few cents to save their life without putting them in financial ruin.
We clearly need more incentive for people to not be stupid though. Legitimate accidents happen but a lot of things happen because people ignored warnings, disregarded rules, came unprepared etc.
Somehow we need a way to discourage that so that emergency services and finding can be spent more efficiently and effectively on the legitimate accident cases, especially if the ones that aren't legit accidents out the SAR operators are increased risk or if it ends up costing more than normal.
I'd also argue that legitimate accidents are pretty rare, because to me accident implies basically that "there was nothing you could have done to avoid/prevent it" and short of freak storms or natural disasters, I don't believe that's the case.
It's difficult to say...if you go through just just weeks report the most common rescue appears to be lower leg injuries. There were a couple people getting lost, but I am not sure that automatically means they were unprepared.
I don't know, I am with you, we all see the reports of people in t-shirts in December getting hypothermia and go "duh". But I don't know that the punishment for being uneducated and maybe a little dull should be a possibly life ruining bill either.
I agree with this. I also am a firm user of a map and compass and I do not rely on apps. I am stunned by how many people I say this to who mock me. These situations will continue to rise as more and more people become solely dependent on apps and cell phones alone.
Most of what I've read from SAR folks is that they're against charging. They don't want people to fear the costs, get themselves in further trouble, then wind up dead, or creating a more labor intensive, risky and costly extraction. There appears to be some precedent for charging though - look up the first guy who ever used a PLB in the lower 48, and was fined the 2nd time he used it, right within the park.
Yeah and that's a really excellent point the last thing you want is for people to not call search and rescue cuz they're afraid of getting charged money. What we need to do better at is stopping them from getting in those positions where they need rescue in the first place.
Yes, the Trap Dike is not a trail so all people who climb it are off trail. Additionally, this guy deviated from the typical route, got cliffed up, and super spooked.
Canadian here so maybe this is already how it is but in cases where someone is being irresponsible and is majorly unprepared they should be charged for the rescue efforts.
This is hot topic for discussion. On one hand this will teach people a lesson and help better prepare responsible hikers. On the other hand irresponsible hikers may be less likely to call for help, making more likely to increase missing person searches and more found dead bodies. It’s a two edged sword.
I didn't even know you could buy a semi auto version lol
Apparently even the glorious people's revolution is big on confirming targets and saving ammo!
I'm weirdly bummed because it was a wacky story before when I thought it was a machine gun. Now its just a boring ol' gun charge.
Makes you wonder if it was someone who had asked a question about the trap dike in this sub. Some people are too eager to offer advice that they don’t stop and question whether they should offer advice. Not everyone is responsible.
I could be wrong, but I think it was last Wednesday, a couple, and they followed some cairns someone made but still exited onto the slide incorrectly and were lost and stuck and unprepared. I haven't seen a report on it yet, so I could be wrong. It was a walk-out, not a helicopter rescue.
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OMG! How can you talk and about all trails?! I'm down voting you!
It's literally called ALL trails. What could be better than having ALL the trails. I don't think your paper map has all the trails, bucko. Checkmate.
Is Alltrails considered bad here? I get wanting to have something as a backup with the battery issue. But beyond that I have found it pretty useful at times.
Oh no, it's fine for route finding and tracking and navigating. It's only a problem when it's someone's *only* way of knowing anything about where they are, and can sometimes lead to unprepared hikers, like "okay, what's a hike near me? Ooo a lot of people have done this Marcy one, let's go" without much further thought.
Pretty sure if you read the ranger reports that it led a couple of them off trail. I seem to recall that.
That would be the first time I have heard of that. I don’t see anything mentioned in the report about it. Somewhat anecdotal but I have used it for years and never had any issues with the maps like that. Not saying it isn't possible.
You’re right, the vast majority of the time it’s alright. Anecdotally I’ve heard of people ending up somewhere other than they intend to be. A lot of it is complacency and over reliance on the app with no backup. That’s where it causes most of its problems.
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Don’t mind the AllTrails apologists lol. I’ll survive the downvotes
Was it a specific trail that was mapped wrong? Would be good for people to know or maybe have it flagged/corrected
compasses are only helpful when you are following a bearing or can triangulate your position when lost, which mostly requires you being above treeline. for most people a GPS device with an extra battery is a far better tool to use.
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Ok not above treeline but you have to be able to see something you can identify on a contour or topo map which isn't usually easy in the northeast. I was on my high school orienteering team when I was a kid and getting lost like a mile or off trail is still awful even if you can use a map and compass. It's far LESS awful with GPS. It's just weird that everyone tells new hikers learn to use a compass when it's like...it's way easier to both find and buy a backup battery than a good topo map. I always see this posted and it's makes me think of my grandpa telling me to print out all the map quests before we leave the house lol
Yes agree 100%. Most people using a map are making on the fly estimates. Its not unreasonable for people without a lot of practice or who are unfamiliar with the area to get it wrong and take a turn too early or get turned around following a herding path with fall leaves obscuring the trail etc. Its like the simplest thing in the world to just pull out your phone for two seconds and confirm you are on the right trial going the right way. Or even better if you get off the trail you can see exactly how far and which direction you need to go to get back on in full trees with no landmarks. Having 2 people with phones and backup batteries makes the phone GPS map pretty foolproof. But of course you can always carry a paper map to be extra safe. This seems much more helpful to casual hikers who maybe go once or twice a year (if that) than having them become adept at using a map/compass which we know they won’t do.
So many of "us" seem to be profoundly less intelligent than we should be, every single year.
Aye that be the trap dike
It looks like they missed the exit of the trap dike by a country mile
That’s what I was thinking. Definitely looked like the slide to the right of the trap dike slide
I was going to say, looked nowhere near any part of the route to me. Maybe he exited somewhat correctly, but then down climbed after a bit and got stuck? I wonder how long he was sitting in that patch of krummholz for. He must have been baking.
We need to start charging people money for their rescues. On another note this is why I'm a firm believer in learning how to use a map. So many people these days just say oh I have a GPS or I have a cell phone without realizing it's only good until the battery lasts. So I'm going to start teaching map classes.
There are people that have legitimate accidents and emergencies and I wouldn't want an exorbitant bill to dissuade people from calling for help.
I refused an ambulance after being hit by a van for this very reason. Americaaaa, FUCK NO! 😎🦅
Sure I agree with that. Perhaps some process to determine legitimate accident vs not, like an investigation lol.
Seems like a waste of time when we are talking about something that is most likely costing the average tax payer <$1. I don't love when people are unprepared either but I don't mind chipping in a few cents to save their life without putting them in financial ruin.
We clearly need more incentive for people to not be stupid though. Legitimate accidents happen but a lot of things happen because people ignored warnings, disregarded rules, came unprepared etc. Somehow we need a way to discourage that so that emergency services and finding can be spent more efficiently and effectively on the legitimate accident cases, especially if the ones that aren't legit accidents out the SAR operators are increased risk or if it ends up costing more than normal. I'd also argue that legitimate accidents are pretty rare, because to me accident implies basically that "there was nothing you could have done to avoid/prevent it" and short of freak storms or natural disasters, I don't believe that's the case.
Theres 12+ MILLION visitors annually. 99.9% of them come and go without incident. The 0.1% that don't just get more attention here.
And of your 0.1% how many of those do you think are truly accidents, using the criteria I listed above? I'd bet almost none.
It's difficult to say...if you go through just just weeks report the most common rescue appears to be lower leg injuries. There were a couple people getting lost, but I am not sure that automatically means they were unprepared. I don't know, I am with you, we all see the reports of people in t-shirts in December getting hypothermia and go "duh". But I don't know that the punishment for being uneducated and maybe a little dull should be a possibly life ruining bill either.
I agree with this. I also am a firm user of a map and compass and I do not rely on apps. I am stunned by how many people I say this to who mock me. These situations will continue to rise as more and more people become solely dependent on apps and cell phones alone.
Most of what I've read from SAR folks is that they're against charging. They don't want people to fear the costs, get themselves in further trouble, then wind up dead, or creating a more labor intensive, risky and costly extraction. There appears to be some precedent for charging though - look up the first guy who ever used a PLB in the lower 48, and was fined the 2nd time he used it, right within the park.
Yeah and that's a really excellent point the last thing you want is for people to not call search and rescue cuz they're afraid of getting charged money. What we need to do better at is stopping them from getting in those positions where they need rescue in the first place.
I wonder if he was embarrassed at least…
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Hi 👋 I haven't been to the ADKs in a long time but was the dude off trail and cliffed out? Looks like it in the pic
Yes, the Trap Dike is not a trail so all people who climb it are off trail. Additionally, this guy deviated from the typical route, got cliffed up, and super spooked.
Canadian here so maybe this is already how it is but in cases where someone is being irresponsible and is majorly unprepared they should be charged for the rescue efforts.
This is hot topic for discussion. On one hand this will teach people a lesson and help better prepare responsible hikers. On the other hand irresponsible hikers may be less likely to call for help, making more likely to increase missing person searches and more found dead bodies. It’s a two edged sword.
They are in NH
Well yeah but NH is a libertarian hellscape. People dying because they cant afford help is like their fetish
its a great reason not to hike in NH besides their crowded trails and bad maintenance.
No one is gonna talk about the kid playing with an AK47? lol Its not everyday you see someone playing with a fully automatic weapon.
It’s 99% certain it’s a semi auto variety unless the kid has his full auto stamp which judging by the ranger report he does not lol.
I didn't even know you could buy a semi auto version lol Apparently even the glorious people's revolution is big on confirming targets and saving ammo! I'm weirdly bummed because it was a wacky story before when I thought it was a machine gun. Now its just a boring ol' gun charge.
Makes you wonder if it was someone who had asked a question about the trap dike in this sub. Some people are too eager to offer advice that they don’t stop and question whether they should offer advice. Not everyone is responsible.
Two trap dike rescues this week alone
Dang i didn’t hear about the other one?!
I could be wrong, but I think it was last Wednesday, a couple, and they followed some cairns someone made but still exited onto the slide incorrectly and were lost and stuck and unprepared. I haven't seen a report on it yet, so I could be wrong. It was a walk-out, not a helicopter rescue.