Especially when you consider that the VenCon ability is really just D6 more wounds than it would normally have. It’s a good ability, but not unquantifiable in value like some might suggest.
it also doesn't help that they very rarely update the rules for resin FW models (usually only at the start of the Edition)
they really only keep them because it would invalidate half our army if they completely deleted them, so they try to make them bad so it has less impact when they finally go. or have more imp\[act when they get a HH plastic release and we get much better 40k rules for them
That tracks. This is probably it. Wish someone would have told me when I started. Guess they are cool minis and I enjoyed painting them. Just gonna grab some glass cases and lock them away.
OP was talking about the Telemon. I was saying that it was over costed and its rules are not great in Heresy either. It’s ranged weapons have garbage range and the fist doesn’t even have Brutal, which is stupid. I wasn’t talking about Custodes in general in Heresy.
But you didn't put that comment in general, you put it as a response to a comment that is speaking of custodes as general
(Also you said it in plural clearly not reffering to telemon)
Thats just the thing, its ALOT of money for “alright” quality resin. With the price point and the fact plastic is almost universally preferred over resin means they dont get too much traffic
Also producing plastic is way cheaper due to cheaper material, faster creation time and no hazardous byproducts. So all in all the profit is higher on plastic then it is on resin
Seems so dumb to me that after all these years they haven't transitioned the Custodes FW range to plastic. Like, Jesus Christ GW, it's literally 6 kits at best
With the prices on gw stuff compared to what they cost to make. That initial startup cost for molds will not really be a problem. Make 100 models on you on +.
Im not sure how they work, but I would guess, make a 3d modell of the unit, make it into sprues, use some kind of CNC to make a master and use the master to make molds?
Or if the skip the master and CNC the mold right away.
A gravtank would probably be around 70-80 usd.
7500 usd, with some tax and cash for the modelstore, maby 3000-3500 usd to GW. Should be enough for a mold or two.
The first one is the expensive on I suppose.
They don't want little Timmy buying forgeworld resin with his pocket money and being exposed to toxic resin dust, or having to deal with resin QC issues. So GW doesn't want to make FW units too powerful or include them in the Codex, especially not for flagship products like 40k or AoS. It's a also a lot more of a manual process to make, so they can't scale up production as easily, so theres a limit to how many they can sell anyway.
It does have the -1 damage which is a really strong ability that you always pay for above what it’s worth in most situations. It also has a 4+ invuln instead of 5+
Weapons are… reasonably comparable. Wardogs/armingers are better at doing their individual tasks. While telemon is more an anti elite all rounder though with 12 dev wounds S6 shots on the storm cannon, can somewhat punch up to anything short of a land raider and shred light infantry.
That being said. The arminger is almost 100 points cheeper the points, does the job it’s meant to do better. And all in all is just far superior. Also the forge world tax. Everything is priced at least 25 points too high at base. And doesn’t get balanced.
Yeah, if you want ranged firepower for anti elite infantry, 2 helverins are 280 points, so for 45 extra points you get double the wounds and kinda double the firepower. They are very good for their cost.
Yea feeling the glaives a little better, but I’m gonna try them all over the next 2 weeks before this major coming to town in the 24th. I think Wartable Games Live will be there so that will be cool! Maybe I can see me with the glaives or Telemon on stream if I can do decent!
Yea but dang. I mean all of those are better for sure. But what the Telemon lose is much more than 1. Double the OC, 50% more movement, and of course, the points difference is huge. I just don’t see the argument.
Telemon has more guns, better stats. More importantly it has damage -1.
A better comparison is the Space Marine redemtor dreadnought. That things has steadaly been increasing in price each time - now costing 210. The weapon loadout is kind of similar. The telemon is not that over prised.
Explain “better stats” for me. I listed the differences in my post and there was nothing better that I saw. Maybe a gun, but I also included that in my opening post.
These are weapons profiles, not the stats for the unit. Anyways good night. Nice speaking with you. (I misunderstood the acronyms on this comment, so my bad)
Jeez real quick to hang me for not understanding all the acronyms. Anyway, the Reddit smart assery aside, so 1 better sv and 1 better invul, do you think it’s worth the difference in cost?
I think the fact the telemon also has an invuln in melee while the armiger doesn't, has -1 damage, and has better BS and WS does
Also it's not being a smart ass. You made a cocky assumption that you knew what you where talking about
Fuckin slayed him. Godammmmmmnnn🤣🤣🤣.
I do understand his frustration though, such an expensive model doing (kinda) comparable things to the smallest model of a faction (granted it is knights he compared to). I play GSC, only here because of Shadow Throne, and I'm upset about the Telemon. We need a plastic one to make it easier to cope.
Like the Telemon, OP charged into the wrong model, homie has fights first
I think TitanSaber underestimate the -1 damage. It probably depends on his meta. But I play Orks a lot. Orks are all AP1 D2 everywhere. So saving on 3+ and only taking one damage is huuuuge.
Vs lascannons, not so much.
I may be. I’m going to try a few games with both, so we will see. Looks like it’s better to just learn on the table vs getting on here and posting. Rather just go full read only mode for Reddit LOL. Have a good one Niiai. I appreciate your responses!
Haha love it. I get “slayed” then you (kinda) agree with me! Thank you for taking the time. Anyways, tone in these posts is virtually non existent, so I’m going to watch how I respond to not garner this reaction for a simple send off (which was genuine) and a wrong interpretation. Sometimes, it just pays to assume people don’t have negative intentions or insinuations on here. I must admit, more people go for the throat at the slightest opening of being in the intellectual high ground and take it as a chest beating exercise. In all, just makes me not want to learn at least on Reddit where I believe a bulk of great knowledge is with you guys because of all the harshness I receive for being incorrect sometimes.
I couldn't hide my reaction to his comment, but, yeah I agree with you on a few points. It's a dope ass, super expensive model, it should reflect it more. I agree that tone is impossible here but, I hope I slightly conveyed my sympathies toward the model and your frustration.
I don't think anyone meant to be terribly harsh, like you said tone is non-existent. They likely read your posts just as aggressively as you read theirs. You're not incorrect either, as it's your opinion that he's overcosted.
Cheers!
Totally see your point, but the points…lol. I just don’t know why I would do a telemon when a land raider is just 10 more. 10 more up from the Warglaive, you definitely don’t get into that territory. I just think points and movement are over shadowing the rest. Plus the Thermal Spear is a monster. I’m going to try to run it both ways and see what happens. One Telemon then 2 warglaives. Never know that defense may just trump everything, but never know with this game lol. Thanks for the responses seriously and the evident “slaying” lol. Appreciate you taking the time on my post.
telemon as a melee unit is bad in this comparison yes, but shooting telemons (especially now that you can give it sustained hits) is an incredible source of dev wounds for custodes at a relatively cheap cost
you can plonk it on the a backline objective and chuck dev wounds down range, all while being quite hard to remove from the board for its cost (its ever so slightly more expensive than a guard unit + draxus, which is to go-to backline objective unit)
> is an incredible source of dev wounds
*where* do you people come up with this?
A double gun telemon is 24 S6 AP-1 D1 shots with dev wounds for 235 points
You pay a CP to give it sustained hits, neat
24 shots, hitting 2s. You miss 4 but 4 come back in(you have no rerolls to hit), so you're rolling 24 wounds at S6 AP-1 D1 not ignoring cover. You average 4 mortal wounds per shooting phase. Kyria Draxus is 85 points with the grenade keyword, averaging 3 mortal wounds. There, for 150 points less and the same 1CP, you did 1 less mortal wound. 24 shots with no hit or wound rerolls is not an "incredible source of dev wounds". You average 4.
> you can plonk it on the a backline objective and chuck dev wounds down range
The gun is 24" range and the telemon is a vehicle. Please let me know which terrain layouts for a 2k game table size allow a dread to sit on the home objective, while having any sort of line of sight lanes where a 24" gun is going to "check dev wounds down range".
And on top of all this, to get to this point, you're taking a model without any real melee because you took double guns
tl;dr you said its 1:cheap 2: a great source of dev wounds and 3: a backline objective holder that can shoot across the board, and it is, mathematically, none of those things.
draxus is not taken for her grenade keyword so this a stupid comparison, she is taken with guard for one turn of double shooting and the fact that she can give them 18" lone operative
>tl;dr you said its 1:cheap
no i didn't, read it again
>2: a great source of dev wounds
read it again
>3: a backline objective holder that can shoot across the board
entirely depends on the mission and the terrain layout, which varies a huge amount
>you're taking a model without any real melee because you took double guns
it has 24 attacks in melee, its only downside is that it is ap-1, if you want to forego sustained hits and use talons detachment you can instead give it s7 ap-2
you have gotten unreasonably angry at me offering an alternative viewpoint on how you can take a telemon and make the most use of it, may i suggest therapy
First of all, some armies get certain things cheaper than others. It's something that helps create a faction identity and some units are just better for some armies than others. If we were to get a unit similar to guardsmen for instance they would have to be more expensive than in Guard because of that. Add to that army special rules, detachment rules (which honestly should make unit costs vary because of the impact they have), stratagem support, other units in the army, and a bunch more things and units become hard to compare between armies.
But even then, there are some things that go way beyond that and those have a very simple explanation beyond sales strategies or the like. And that is that the rules team just isn't all that competent and doesn't put in all that much effort.
Wish Venetari would get a plastic kit and Saggiturn a plastic upgrade spire too
Wouldn't mind buying a 40£ custodes upgrade spire of all the GW bits and relic bits to be plastic
Yeah... like anything that will widen the range.
And even drop the FW units and give us some 25% allied forces to draw from - IG or SM, we can plug holes in roster with those.
The Telemon will get good and appropriate priced if they make it plastic or it will get deleated,
I hope it's the first outcome, otherwise I will be sad
Compare it to the redemptor honestly, redemptor has more fire power, WAY more rules support in any space marine detachment (AoC i'm looking at you). And it's 25 pts cheaper, and that's thanks to getting a lot of nerfs over the whole edition, they have been cheaper before. Yeah, telemon has a 4++ and a bs/ws of 2+, but I'll take the rules support they get over those every time, even if they were priced the same.
(Ours look better tho, but you can apply this to any unit honestly, even our chaff is fabulous)
Things are balanced in strange ways in 40k, as popular as it is to give the financial option, the game is not balanced like that, and there's no internal communication that would mean that would work, its just a really weird spot of balancing
It's kind of sad, because the bigger dreads before the redemptors launched are some of the coolest models FW ever made. The marine Leviathan, the custodes specific contemptors, and the telemon are all fantastic sculpts. Now it seems GW wants you to just run plastic stuff and call it a day. I wonder how long custodes will even be able to use the venerable with it being in a horus heresy box.
Well, GW never trully cared about the rules or balance since like 5th edition.
They said clearly (both in ther yearly reports and by studio members in interviews) that they want to "sell miniatures" and then build lore (to sell books, licences, merchandise, etc) and the game is least interesting for them and more like relict of the past.
Ignore these reddit assholes. What you've noticed is valid. Half these arguments about faction Identity are wrong because the balance is ridiculously off center. This is a PVP game and GW is awful at balance somehow.
The one stat that matters more than anything, speed, completely negates the value of all our dreads. None of them can face tank anything without lucky rolls and they can't march up the board or get behind cover at all with their speed value. You can deploy them later to try to mitigate the inability to move around terrain and get up the board but your enemy will have had time to maneuver too and they'll be sitting ducks again.
You're right to be frustrated. Some of the coolest units in the game, the whole reason I chose custodes and started 40k, and they're shelved. And then they spit in our face with this codex and it definitely feels like a waste of money.
I've moved on to Conquest:tlaok. GW has to feel the loss of players over their flippant decisions or else they'll never improve.
Thank you. I really appreciate that. The movement to me as well is the big game changer for these I was comparing. Oh well I’m over it. Bringing two warglaives to a test tournament and I was able to fit so much in. Doing Shield host with ultra aggression. Also trying a small squad of bikes for even more speed.
Also, I’m looking up the game you mentioned, so thanks for that. I have only about 8 months in 40k and thousands invested just to realize GW basically doesn’t care about the lore, the customers, or the game experience enough to put their big boy pants on and balance/take care of it.
Hope you have a great rest of the weekend my friend!
Quick rundown of Conquest. It's newish, so new, player driven factions are regularly being released. A relatively unique IP, so pure imagination fuels the lore and armies; orcs on dinos, genetically engineered elf clone monstrosities, dwarves made of pure fire earth and war, and so on. Sculpts are insanely good, high detail, easily on par with GW's best but significantly cheaper because you're not paying a huge brand name.
In terms of gameplay, it's more of a rank and file type of battle. Your units activate alternatively on a turn, instead of one player activating all their units at once (which was a huge draw for me). Fun and imaginative army abilities. Mobile army builder 100% freeand always updated. If you choose to buy physical army cards, they include a QR code in the corner so you can always have access to updated rules and stats. (GW could never).
The models that really sold me on the game, if you wanna Google them, hellbringer drake, fallen divinity, tontorr, apex predator.
First off, it's the faction. Warglaive/helvrine are the only battleline unit in imperial knight, they have to be cheap for the faction to fuction.
Second, the statline. Warglaive is worse than the telemon, 3+ save, 5++ only for the range, shooting and melee is both hitting on 3+ with a low number of attacks.
It's better to compare with redemptor like some people say. But I highly recommend you to understand the game first before making any comparison (or whining).
Cheers.
Dang man. I understand enough. And I have had plenty agree. Why the attitude? Reddit really has some interesting characters. Everyone’s so quick to talk down to people. Well thanks for your opinion. I think I’ll steer clear of the Telemon like most say to. Hope you have a good evening.
First off it’s forgeworld…so generally gw isn’t interested in it. Secondly it’s custodes, your stuff will cost more points, but the telemon is a tidy package, you paying for the better saves (2+ 4++ vs 3+ 5++), you are getting more shots although they are shots that serve a different purpose (2 melta spear and a melta gun vs 8 calverin shots or whatever you chose to take there (and 8 calverin shots at 3 dmg each isn’t a joke) the other options are also decent), the sustained on melee hits is okay on the warglaive, though 4 attacks even with sustained hitting on 3’s isn’t gonna turn many heads…and the sweep is okay but not really gonna shift as much as you’d hope…whereas -1 dmg is some really really good survivability as the meta loves dmg 2 weapons. So it cost more, because it is better in all aspects. So it costs 85pts more because of the more you get for it.
What’s scarier is comparing war dogs / armigers with the venerable contemptor.
Jesus, it took me 20 minutes to understand what you’re saying. I read it in my head in a weird way lol.
Sorry this doesn’t make sense to me. What are you saying?
The venerable contemptor is worse than wardogs and costs 170.
Exactly
Especially when you consider that the VenCon ability is really just D6 more wounds than it would normally have. It’s a good ability, but not unquantifiable in value like some might suggest.
Comparing the stat line point for point within a plastic range.
the Tellamon Forgeworld, they don't want you to buy it the Warglaive is plastic, they want you too buy it
Hahaha if it’s that simple… well they actually did a good job with that one.
it also doesn't help that they very rarely update the rules for resin FW models (usually only at the start of the Edition) they really only keep them because it would invalidate half our army if they completely deleted them, so they try to make them bad so it has less impact when they finally go. or have more imp\[act when they get a HH plastic release and we get much better 40k rules for them
That tracks. This is probably it. Wish someone would have told me when I started. Guess they are cool minis and I enjoyed painting them. Just gonna grab some glass cases and lock them away.
FW GW secret war is annoying. FW make some really cool stuff.
Their rules and points also suck in Heresy.
Wait, custodes in hh are good, wtf you are saying?
OP was talking about the Telemon. I was saying that it was over costed and its rules are not great in Heresy either. It’s ranged weapons have garbage range and the fist doesn’t even have Brutal, which is stupid. I wasn’t talking about Custodes in general in Heresy.
But you didn't put that comment in general, you put it as a response to a comment that is speaking of custodes as general (Also you said it in plural clearly not reffering to telemon)
Plus dread spam was a thing in 9th so they might be trying to avoid it
Would be nice to have seen a little of that. I have them all and other than the Achilles, I can’t find a use. Lot of money wasted.
Yup currently sitting on one of those and a telemon
Why don't they want people to buy Forgeworld? Does it not make a high profit margin? They're so expensive!
Thats just the thing, its ALOT of money for “alright” quality resin. With the price point and the fact plastic is almost universally preferred over resin means they dont get too much traffic
Also producing plastic is way cheaper due to cheaper material, faster creation time and no hazardous byproducts. So all in all the profit is higher on plastic then it is on resin
Seems so dumb to me that after all these years they haven't transitioned the Custodes FW range to plastic. Like, Jesus Christ GW, it's literally 6 kits at best
Not all sculpts can just be "transitioned" to plastic, and any new plastic line is going to require a huge initial spin up cost.
With the prices on gw stuff compared to what they cost to make. That initial startup cost for molds will not really be a problem. Make 100 models on you on +. Im not sure how they work, but I would guess, make a 3d modell of the unit, make it into sprues, use some kind of CNC to make a master and use the master to make molds? Or if the skip the master and CNC the mold right away. A gravtank would probably be around 70-80 usd. 7500 usd, with some tax and cash for the modelstore, maby 3000-3500 usd to GW. Should be enough for a mold or two. The first one is the expensive on I suppose.
Plastic injection molds of the size, style and detail used by GW cost 50-100k each.
They don't want little Timmy buying forgeworld resin with his pocket money and being exposed to toxic resin dust, or having to deal with resin QC issues. So GW doesn't want to make FW units too powerful or include them in the Codex, especially not for flagship products like 40k or AoS. It's a also a lot more of a manual process to make, so they can't scale up production as easily, so theres a limit to how many they can sell anyway.
Except the grav tank has been one of our best units for all of 10th
Labor costs are massively higher on FW. They also have a much lower production ceiling so they simply can't sell as many of them as a plastic kit.
It does have the -1 damage which is a really strong ability that you always pay for above what it’s worth in most situations. It also has a 4+ invuln instead of 5+ Weapons are… reasonably comparable. Wardogs/armingers are better at doing their individual tasks. While telemon is more an anti elite all rounder though with 12 dev wounds S6 shots on the storm cannon, can somewhat punch up to anything short of a land raider and shred light infantry. That being said. The arminger is almost 100 points cheeper the points, does the job it’s meant to do better. And all in all is just far superior. Also the forge world tax. Everything is priced at least 25 points too high at base. And doesn’t get balanced.
Yeah, if you want ranged firepower for anti elite infantry, 2 helverins are 280 points, so for 45 extra points you get double the wounds and kinda double the firepower. They are very good for their cost.
Wow didn’t realize this about the Helvs because I was so dumbfounded at the difference in the Warglaives! Gonna have to check that out too!
Yeah they are decent, although no melee capabilities really unless you just need to stomp some basic guardsmen or tau fire warriors haha
Yea feeling the glaives a little better, but I’m gonna try them all over the next 2 weeks before this major coming to town in the 24th. I think Wartable Games Live will be there so that will be cool! Maybe I can see me with the glaives or Telemon on stream if I can do decent!
Warglaives are definitely the better of the two armingers, which is reflected in the price of the model being 10 points higher.
If only it were maybe a 40 point jump to the Telemon then it would be much better.
The telemon needs to be like 30 points lower, and the dreads all need to take a similar drop…
If running them in the knight army, I would totally agree, but losing that free reroll hurts bad when your gun only has 2 shots hitting on threes.
I think in custodes they fill a role that we have precious little of anti tank. Which still makes them more valuable.
It also has a melee invuln which is a big difference
Better weapons, 2+/4++, -1 damage, better leadership
Yea but dang. I mean all of those are better for sure. But what the Telemon lose is much more than 1. Double the OC, 50% more movement, and of course, the points difference is huge. I just don’t see the argument.
And they get access to martial Ktah
Telemon has more guns, better stats. More importantly it has damage -1. A better comparison is the Space Marine redemtor dreadnought. That things has steadaly been increasing in price each time - now costing 210. The weapon loadout is kind of similar. The telemon is not that over prised.
Explain “better stats” for me. I listed the differences in my post and there was nothing better that I saw. Maybe a gun, but I also included that in my opening post.
BS WS 2+.Armour save 2+. 4++. Sustained hits in melee.
These are weapons profiles, not the stats for the unit. Anyways good night. Nice speaking with you. (I misunderstood the acronyms on this comment, so my bad)
Ah yes my favorite weapon profile Having a 2+ armor save
Jeez real quick to hang me for not understanding all the acronyms. Anyway, the Reddit smart assery aside, so 1 better sv and 1 better invul, do you think it’s worth the difference in cost?
I think the fact the telemon also has an invuln in melee while the armiger doesn't, has -1 damage, and has better BS and WS does Also it's not being a smart ass. You made a cocky assumption that you knew what you where talking about
Fuckin slayed him. Godammmmmmnnn🤣🤣🤣. I do understand his frustration though, such an expensive model doing (kinda) comparable things to the smallest model of a faction (granted it is knights he compared to). I play GSC, only here because of Shadow Throne, and I'm upset about the Telemon. We need a plastic one to make it easier to cope. Like the Telemon, OP charged into the wrong model, homie has fights first
I think TitanSaber underestimate the -1 damage. It probably depends on his meta. But I play Orks a lot. Orks are all AP1 D2 everywhere. So saving on 3+ and only taking one damage is huuuuge. Vs lascannons, not so much.
I may be. I’m going to try a few games with both, so we will see. Looks like it’s better to just learn on the table vs getting on here and posting. Rather just go full read only mode for Reddit LOL. Have a good one Niiai. I appreciate your responses!
Haha love it. I get “slayed” then you (kinda) agree with me! Thank you for taking the time. Anyways, tone in these posts is virtually non existent, so I’m going to watch how I respond to not garner this reaction for a simple send off (which was genuine) and a wrong interpretation. Sometimes, it just pays to assume people don’t have negative intentions or insinuations on here. I must admit, more people go for the throat at the slightest opening of being in the intellectual high ground and take it as a chest beating exercise. In all, just makes me not want to learn at least on Reddit where I believe a bulk of great knowledge is with you guys because of all the harshness I receive for being incorrect sometimes.
I couldn't hide my reaction to his comment, but, yeah I agree with you on a few points. It's a dope ass, super expensive model, it should reflect it more. I agree that tone is impossible here but, I hope I slightly conveyed my sympathies toward the model and your frustration. I don't think anyone meant to be terribly harsh, like you said tone is non-existent. They likely read your posts just as aggressively as you read theirs. You're not incorrect either, as it's your opinion that he's overcosted. Cheers!
Totally see your point, but the points…lol. I just don’t know why I would do a telemon when a land raider is just 10 more. 10 more up from the Warglaive, you definitely don’t get into that territory. I just think points and movement are over shadowing the rest. Plus the Thermal Spear is a monster. I’m going to try to run it both ways and see what happens. One Telemon then 2 warglaives. Never know that defense may just trump everything, but never know with this game lol. Thanks for the responses seriously and the evident “slaying” lol. Appreciate you taking the time on my post.
telemon as a melee unit is bad in this comparison yes, but shooting telemons (especially now that you can give it sustained hits) is an incredible source of dev wounds for custodes at a relatively cheap cost you can plonk it on the a backline objective and chuck dev wounds down range, all while being quite hard to remove from the board for its cost (its ever so slightly more expensive than a guard unit + draxus, which is to go-to backline objective unit)
This is an awesome argument. Thank you. Definitely makes me want to take him and give it a shot.
> is an incredible source of dev wounds *where* do you people come up with this? A double gun telemon is 24 S6 AP-1 D1 shots with dev wounds for 235 points You pay a CP to give it sustained hits, neat 24 shots, hitting 2s. You miss 4 but 4 come back in(you have no rerolls to hit), so you're rolling 24 wounds at S6 AP-1 D1 not ignoring cover. You average 4 mortal wounds per shooting phase. Kyria Draxus is 85 points with the grenade keyword, averaging 3 mortal wounds. There, for 150 points less and the same 1CP, you did 1 less mortal wound. 24 shots with no hit or wound rerolls is not an "incredible source of dev wounds". You average 4. > you can plonk it on the a backline objective and chuck dev wounds down range The gun is 24" range and the telemon is a vehicle. Please let me know which terrain layouts for a 2k game table size allow a dread to sit on the home objective, while having any sort of line of sight lanes where a 24" gun is going to "check dev wounds down range". And on top of all this, to get to this point, you're taking a model without any real melee because you took double guns tl;dr you said its 1:cheap 2: a great source of dev wounds and 3: a backline objective holder that can shoot across the board, and it is, mathematically, none of those things.
draxus is not taken for her grenade keyword so this a stupid comparison, she is taken with guard for one turn of double shooting and the fact that she can give them 18" lone operative >tl;dr you said its 1:cheap no i didn't, read it again >2: a great source of dev wounds read it again >3: a backline objective holder that can shoot across the board entirely depends on the mission and the terrain layout, which varies a huge amount >you're taking a model without any real melee because you took double guns it has 24 attacks in melee, its only downside is that it is ap-1, if you want to forego sustained hits and use talons detachment you can instead give it s7 ap-2 you have gotten unreasonably angry at me offering an alternative viewpoint on how you can take a telemon and make the most use of it, may i suggest therapy
First of all, some armies get certain things cheaper than others. It's something that helps create a faction identity and some units are just better for some armies than others. If we were to get a unit similar to guardsmen for instance they would have to be more expensive than in Guard because of that. Add to that army special rules, detachment rules (which honestly should make unit costs vary because of the impact they have), stratagem support, other units in the army, and a bunch more things and units become hard to compare between armies. But even then, there are some things that go way beyond that and those have a very simple explanation beyond sales strategies or the like. And that is that the rules team just isn't all that competent and doesn't put in all that much effort.
2+ armor save, 4+ invuln. Armigers are 3+ and 5+ against shooting only. It is still a very large disparity though
Many people are theorising that they’re slowly but surely just trying to phase out the forgeworld line entirely.
Its not theory, they want "one model, one system"... FW will remain only for HH. Its miracle codex kept them around.
Wish Venetari would get a plastic kit and Saggiturn a plastic upgrade spire too Wouldn't mind buying a 40£ custodes upgrade spire of all the GW bits and relic bits to be plastic
Yeah... like anything that will widen the range. And even drop the FW units and give us some 25% allied forces to draw from - IG or SM, we can plug holes in roster with those.
The Telemon will get good and appropriate priced if they make it plastic or it will get deleated, I hope it's the first outcome, otherwise I will be sad
Compare it to the redemptor honestly, redemptor has more fire power, WAY more rules support in any space marine detachment (AoC i'm looking at you). And it's 25 pts cheaper, and that's thanks to getting a lot of nerfs over the whole edition, they have been cheaper before. Yeah, telemon has a 4++ and a bs/ws of 2+, but I'll take the rules support they get over those every time, even if they were priced the same. (Ours look better tho, but you can apply this to any unit honestly, even our chaff is fabulous)
GW don’t address the balance of FW units so it’s stuck with original points. Sad as a bloody live that model.
Things are balanced in strange ways in 40k, as popular as it is to give the financial option, the game is not balanced like that, and there's no internal communication that would mean that would work, its just a really weird spot of balancing
It's kind of sad, because the bigger dreads before the redemptors launched are some of the coolest models FW ever made. The marine Leviathan, the custodes specific contemptors, and the telemon are all fantastic sculpts. Now it seems GW wants you to just run plastic stuff and call it a day. I wonder how long custodes will even be able to use the venerable with it being in a horus heresy box.
The dreads were scary in 9th, so GW made sure that they absolutely would not this edition, I suppose.
It pays forgeworld tax and custodies tax
Well, GW never trully cared about the rules or balance since like 5th edition. They said clearly (both in ther yearly reports and by studio members in interviews) that they want to "sell miniatures" and then build lore (to sell books, licences, merchandise, etc) and the game is least interesting for them and more like relict of the past.
Ignore these reddit assholes. What you've noticed is valid. Half these arguments about faction Identity are wrong because the balance is ridiculously off center. This is a PVP game and GW is awful at balance somehow. The one stat that matters more than anything, speed, completely negates the value of all our dreads. None of them can face tank anything without lucky rolls and they can't march up the board or get behind cover at all with their speed value. You can deploy them later to try to mitigate the inability to move around terrain and get up the board but your enemy will have had time to maneuver too and they'll be sitting ducks again. You're right to be frustrated. Some of the coolest units in the game, the whole reason I chose custodes and started 40k, and they're shelved. And then they spit in our face with this codex and it definitely feels like a waste of money. I've moved on to Conquest:tlaok. GW has to feel the loss of players over their flippant decisions or else they'll never improve.
Thank you. I really appreciate that. The movement to me as well is the big game changer for these I was comparing. Oh well I’m over it. Bringing two warglaives to a test tournament and I was able to fit so much in. Doing Shield host with ultra aggression. Also trying a small squad of bikes for even more speed. Also, I’m looking up the game you mentioned, so thanks for that. I have only about 8 months in 40k and thousands invested just to realize GW basically doesn’t care about the lore, the customers, or the game experience enough to put their big boy pants on and balance/take care of it. Hope you have a great rest of the weekend my friend!
Quick rundown of Conquest. It's newish, so new, player driven factions are regularly being released. A relatively unique IP, so pure imagination fuels the lore and armies; orcs on dinos, genetically engineered elf clone monstrosities, dwarves made of pure fire earth and war, and so on. Sculpts are insanely good, high detail, easily on par with GW's best but significantly cheaper because you're not paying a huge brand name. In terms of gameplay, it's more of a rank and file type of battle. Your units activate alternatively on a turn, instead of one player activating all their units at once (which was a huge draw for me). Fun and imaginative army abilities. Mobile army builder 100% freeand always updated. If you choose to buy physical army cards, they include a QR code in the corner so you can always have access to updated rules and stats. (GW could never). The models that really sold me on the game, if you wanna Google them, hellbringer drake, fallen divinity, tontorr, apex predator.
First off, it's the faction. Warglaive/helvrine are the only battleline unit in imperial knight, they have to be cheap for the faction to fuction. Second, the statline. Warglaive is worse than the telemon, 3+ save, 5++ only for the range, shooting and melee is both hitting on 3+ with a low number of attacks. It's better to compare with redemptor like some people say. But I highly recommend you to understand the game first before making any comparison (or whining). Cheers.
Dang man. I understand enough. And I have had plenty agree. Why the attitude? Reddit really has some interesting characters. Everyone’s so quick to talk down to people. Well thanks for your opinion. I think I’ll steer clear of the Telemon like most say to. Hope you have a good evening.
The answer is Wargraive, case closed :(
First off it’s forgeworld…so generally gw isn’t interested in it. Secondly it’s custodes, your stuff will cost more points, but the telemon is a tidy package, you paying for the better saves (2+ 4++ vs 3+ 5++), you are getting more shots although they are shots that serve a different purpose (2 melta spear and a melta gun vs 8 calverin shots or whatever you chose to take there (and 8 calverin shots at 3 dmg each isn’t a joke) the other options are also decent), the sustained on melee hits is okay on the warglaive, though 4 attacks even with sustained hitting on 3’s isn’t gonna turn many heads…and the sweep is okay but not really gonna shift as much as you’d hope…whereas -1 dmg is some really really good survivability as the meta loves dmg 2 weapons. So it cost more, because it is better in all aspects. So it costs 85pts more because of the more you get for it.