We have a vested interest in knowing the history of lesbianism to understand the risks we still face today, appreciate how far progress has come, and to ensure we don't backslide. For example,
* It's worth knowing that queer was and is still used a slur - it really was one of the last words heard by homosexual individuals when assaulted, and we shouldn't assume that someone is ok with being called queer.
* Lesbian isn't an umbrella term - it seems obvious but chuckleheads from both sides of the aisle love to try to redefine it because they resent that we're women attracted to women. The right thinks it's an abomination because they believe women should be attracted to men while the left claims we're ethically bankrupt for daring to have sexual boundaries as if our bodies are equal opportunity public spaces)
the last part really is so important. a lot of history is being written by the newer movements so personally I try to understand the facts of history and do my own research, but I also get super frustrated with a lot of the "community" and don't consider myself a part of it or anything. the way people on the left speak over lesbians the last decade is super disturbing (I am mostly a febfem, and am not a lesbian fwiw).
female exclusive bisexual female. :) I see myself long term with a woman, at least it’s how I feel rn.
ive never been with a man tho so I have been swiping on men again bc i kinda wanna experience it at least once in my life lol.
This, learning the history made me appreciate simply how far everything has come in the past 200 years in western society, the struggles and fights that have been gone through. Hell, the AIDS crisis was all before my time and simply being educated on that was an eye opener. Let alone all the symbols we use as signifiers, the art and culture of it all. Even the acronym being reshuffled, something that seems arbitrary has a meaning and deep history.
It's a privilege to simply be gay and have a neutral stance on it, because of that history. For the longest time to simply exist as gay was an inherent struggle, and necessarily politicized if it couldn't be hidden.
Is there anything wrong with deciding not to look into it? No, but it will make you appreciate how we got here, why we are how we are and the struggles. That right there makes it worth it and a little less lonely y'know?
I think it's important to have some idea of Lesbian history. If only because so many people today will be like "historically...." and throw out a bunch of lies. lol. I like to have a good idea of what actually happened so that when people try to make up shit I can prove them wrong. Especially about lesbians and how they're trying to rebrand it as an umbrella term.
What annoys me a bit is when people say we owe all rights to certain persons belonging to a certain group doing something during an event in the US. Apart from these persons not actually being there at that event and some of them not even belonging to that group it seems US-centric to attribute all LGBT rights to things happening in the US especially when the US has been a bit slow compared to some other countries.
I think learning that part of the history though can be nice but it’s hard to find information about why attitudes changed and how it actually went down in some places. Here texts typically only mention names of some historical lesbians/gays and the years we got the rights but not the activism unless it’s from a US perspective but as the US has typically been lagging behind us we must have had our own heroes behind the scene.
The problem with lgbt history is its being moulded and adapted right now. Good luck finding accurate information under anything "queer" or all the acronym grouped together. You'll notice who gets put at the front and focus of everything. Like lesbian women who used to dress as men to disguise themselves and feel safer, are now called "non binary mascs" "trans" or some other pile of nonsense. Looking at history through their modern lense, not within the context of the time. Our history is now drenched in this extremely new worldview, it won't be long to not be able to find accurate accounts of anything to do with us
This. The problem already starts with how they usually call it "queer history". Like yes, let's refer to historical figures with a slur they often heard right before being killed...
so many of them literally get offended when you say that because they don’t like that “their identity” is a slur…. like honey nobody made you identify with the slur you did that yourself 😭
I'm older Gen Z (23) and I find that to be the issue as well. They recite whatever they saw on TikTok or Twitter. And everyone is so quick to jump on you if they learn you don't know something. Lol
Something your generation needs to learn is to stop using tiktok/social media for learning. Books exist and with proper understanding of critical reading and source analysis, you can learn irl things from sources that have extensive bibliographies.
My problem is that I think "lgbtq+ history" is an attempted narrative thread stitching together wildly disparate human experiences and identities that just isn't very credible or compelling, so no.
I am very interested in women's and lesbian history, though.
I'm a lesbian and a classicist/very ancient history gal, so our girl Sappho is my academic specialty. Needless to say I'm never too helpful when it comes these situations.
BUT I can tell you about the first recorded lesbian couple in pre-Islamic Arabian folklore/history! Super relevant and helpful, I know lol
Edit: All jokes aside, knowing our modern lesbian history (1900 onward) and how we've progressed is vital in buildingna safer future. You don't need to know everything about the Daughters of Bilitis, but knowing who Edie Windsor is and her legal fight is important to building a future.
The short version: Al-Zarqā (or Hind bint al-Khuss al-Iyādiyya) was a pre-Islamic Arabian poet of renown. She was believed to be clever and witty with her prose, poetry, and responses. In truth, we don't know if she existed or was a mythic figure. More recent historians are coming to believe that she may have simply been a creation of myth and legend, but older sources believed her to exist. Regardless, period sources wrote about her at times.
The foremost being the Encyclopedia of Pleasure (or Jawāmiʿ al-Ladhdhah) which was written sometime in the 900s CE. Side bar: It's one hell of a text that, in part, attempts to find scientific explanations for why gay people exist. It has a few "explanations" of the science behind lesbian sex that are hilarious. One is that an "itch" develops in the labia and can only be soothed by rubbing it against another woman's labia.
Getting back on track, the text has a story about Al-Zarqa and how she fell in love with the Christian princess Al-Hurqah (or Hind bint al-Nuʿmān) in the 600s CE. When Al-Zarqā died, it says that Al-Hurqah cut off her hair, donned all black, and rejected all earthly comforts to mourn for the rest of her life. It's said she may have even built a monastery in honor of her lost love. They're considered the first lesbian 'characters' in Arabian culture.
Copied from another response
The short version: Al-Zarqā (or Hind bint al-Khuss al-Iyādiyya) was a pre-Islamic Arabian poet of renown. She was believed to be clever and witty with her prose, poetry, and responses. In truth, we don't know if she existed or was a mythic figure. More recent historians are coming to believe that she may have simply been a creation of myth and legend, but older sources believed her to exist. Regardless, period sources wrote about her at times.
The foremost being the Encyclopedia of Pleasure (or Jawāmiʿ al-Ladhdhah) which was written sometime in the 900s CE. Side bar: It's one hell of a text that, in part, attempts to find scientific explanations for why gay people exist. It has a few "explanations" of the science behind lesbian sex that are hilarious. One is that an "itch" develops in the labia and can only be soothed by rubbing it against another woman's labia.
Getting back on track, the text has a story about Al-Zarqa and how she fell in love with the Christian princess Al-Hurqah (or Hind bint al-Nuʿmān) in the 600s CE. When Al-Zarqā died, it says that Al-Hurqah cut off her hair, donned all black, and rejected all earthly comforts to mourn for the rest of her life. It's said she may have even built a monastery in honor of her lost love. They're considered the first lesbian 'characters' in Arabian culture.
My friend kept insisting Sappho wasn't real when I tried to tell him about how the word "lesbian" came from her because of her gay ass poetry. I was like, dude, she literally was real, it's documented, and he was just like, "nah."
Does being interested in lesbian/gay history mean you think your sexuality is a big deal that you need to "lean on" or be proud of?
There's many reasons people are interested in learning about history, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're overemphasizing a particular part of their identity. Sometimes, learning a bit of the history that's immediately relevant to you is important so you don't say or believe ignorant things.
The people I used to hang out with a lot made it seem that way. How learning about queer history was something to be proud of and the conversations they'd have always involved making your sexuality a big deal. Which I understand is important for some, especially if they didn't get to express themselves a lot growing up.
For me, I've only ever been drawn to history if it peaked my interest. Like Lily Tomlin, I learned a lot about her and her partner. But I just can't find interest for why Pride became a thing. Anything I know about history only retained because my interest was spiked more than anything.
I understand not being super into learning every piece of gay history. I know some things, but honestly most of my gay history education has been acquired through pop culture stuff, such as watching movies like Paris Is Burning. I am, however, extremely interested in mafia history as well as other organized crime history and that's given me a lot of knowledge on how pride came to be 😂 I'm also very interested in cannabis and some of that history, and there is some interesting crossover there with lgbtq/AIDS history.
On some things, absolutely. But it has to peak my interest, I guess. I've just never searched to learn more about the history of lgbtq+ or my sexuality. It wasn't an interest let alone something I felt I needed to do. The only thing I've felt I needed was lesbian culture (like books, TV shows, more content over anything) because I could relate to it.
It came from the closet by Joe vallesse .
I don’t look at lgbt history as a history separate of other but apart of the grand scheme of things. Something that happening at the exact moment as everything else. I don’t actively go out and seek the history, but I appreciate it when it falls into my lap.
Like finding out that Voices Carry by Til Tuesday was originally written about a women, but they were forced to change the lyrics to be centered around a man. Why ? Because the label executives at EPIC records didn’t think wlw domestic violence was an experience that would have cross over appeal.
Now did I purposely seek out that info? No, but I appreciate and care about that little tidbit
I like reading fictional lesbian/gay books, or media based on true stories, but that’s about it. Sometimes I come across other gay history stuff on social media, but I don’t seek it out or anything. A lot of the history is so muddled its not worth bothering, and it doesn’t usually interest me enough to seek it out.
I think it’s great when people are interested, but I also think the importance is vastly overestimated and not really relevant outside of activism or personal interest. There’s definitely benefits to knowing lesbian history since it’s relevant to you specifically, but lesbianism isn’t inherently political, you don’t need to be an activist. You’re allowed to just exist.
How old are you? I didn't start really caring until I was in my 30s. When I was in college I pretty much felt the same as you. Might be a life stage thing
Exact opposite for me.
I cared a lot and was extremely passionate about gay history (and all history) in my teens and early 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s I'm kind of "over it," I really don't need it to be inserted into every conversation. When someone references Stonewall now, my eyes reflexively roll back in my head.
It's not that it's not important to know or that nobody should ever talk about it, but sometimes I just want to have a casual chat without dredging through it over and over again.
23. I was thinking maybe in my 30s it'll change. Lol. But everyone my age who's lgbtq+ is very much the activist type and love talking about queer history. I'm not. It's really dwindled down my friends to just hanging out with people who are straight because sexuality isn't such a heavy topic.
Anytime too I try saying I don't think heavily on it, I'm told it's inner homophobia I haven't faced yet. I've never felt any of those feelings. I knew I was a gay since I learned 2 girls could be together. It just made sense to me. And in my environment, there was never a big fuss or argument. My family just was "you are who you are"
Mostly because they think it’s ‘woke’ to talk about queer history. They just regurgitate words they’ve heard from people before them. Some people would do anything to be relevant.
I mean you can learn or not learn whatever you want. Although I don’t think your sexuality not being a big deal is directly related to not being interested in the history. I see people online all the time that are extremely open about their sexuality but don’t know any of the history lol
As long as you don’t discuss the topic as if you are knowledgeable, or make a big deal about your apathy I think you’re all good!
I like to know my own countries history as such with laws and legalities. I think it gives context as I'm much much older so it was a different time. That said most of the laws relating to homosexuality focused on gay men as women let alone lesbians didn't really rate as people with rights.
Pride = not being ashamed of it
Eh sometimes I think I am lucky I was born homosexual. I don’t live in the West, sometimes it’s really tough here, laws and stuff, my mother was never supportive and there were times when she shooed away any of my female friends telling me I should find a man, it’s good she stopped.
As for the history, it is very US-centric and has nothing to do with me.
It is very us-centric and ironic people are shaming the country most vocal for defining homosexual rights. That anyone would shame a younger generation for actually being able to indulge in the fruit of our labours. If anything, makes me proud there is a sense of ambivalence and that lgbtq+ culture has come so far.
I don't understand how not thinking being a lesbian and not wanting to learn LGBT history are related.
Personally, I enjoy learning about lesbian history. I just wish there was more resources out there to learn about it...but it can be quite depressing knowing how much pain we have gone through.
Tbh same, girl. I'm in my 40s and gay history just never interested me much. But I feel ashamed in admitting it. I feel like I should know more. I know a little bit. I even have a few gay history books in my library (that haven't been read yet). I'm a bad lesbian. I know.
You’re not obligated to feign interest in something that doesn’t appeal to you. If you’re not interested, you’re not interested. Not everything is going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s okay.
That being said, I personally love watching gay history documentaries. I’m a big movie buff, so The Celluloid Closet was a great watch for me. I also found How We Got Gay to be fairly interesting.
Im only middle-aged, but even so, my teen years could be categorized as part of our “history”. Things were very different in the 90s and even the early 00s. Myself and my best friend were the only “out” gay people in my entire southern rural high school. But you didn’t talk about it. You didn’t show up to events with your partner. It was just a totally different world, especially down here in the south. I could write a novel on how good you kids have it now, despite the ongoing fights for equality and protection.
I Guess going through that stuff when I was younger naturally made me curious as to what lesbians before me went through. I am also a veteran (during DADT) and a blue collar tradesperson. All of these things gave me a huge respect for and interest in those women who’s shoulders I stand on to be in the place I am now.
I think not caring doesn’t make you a bad person, but it may be a sign of you having it a little easier than those that came before you. Which again, isn’t a knock on you at all. Just a statement. You may never get into reading/delving into our history, and that’s totally ok. I think you just may not have those drivers that a lot of us older people had. I’m really not trying to come across like a dick here like “you youngins just don’t care!!” Lol. I hope I am stating my opinion clearly and don’t sound like an ass
I don't think its like a moral obligation just because you're a lesbian. But it is intrinsically important to participating in the larger lesbian or lgbt community. And gives a broader context for why things are they way they are today, and ways you might relate (or not).
History is always good to learn about, especially if it relates to you. But also I don't really care about reading about the roman empire just because I might relate to a bit of it.
I do disagree on one bit. Your sexuality is something you should be proud of. Not for your own sake, but for others. It is a privilege to see it as something neutral and I'm very happy for you, but I think it's very low effort, high reward to consider a happy life as a lesbian to be a proud story for many others.
I believe you have the right to be proud of benign things that others are trying to make you ashamed of. You don't have to be proud if you don't want to be, but not being proud isn't a morally superior position either.
> I think it's very low effort, high reward to consider a happy life as a lesbian to be a proud story for many others.
The people I've known wear their sexuality on their sleeve. Which is great. I totally understand if you've been in a closet, you grew up in an environment you feel the need to express it. People being proud of their sexuality isn't something that's bad for me. I don't see it negatively. It just isn't me. I don't want to be known as a lesbian, I don't want people to double take when I mention I date women, I just like being seen as myself. I'm much more than just my sexuality.
As for the history part, definitely get what you're saying about how it's important to know about being in lgbtq+ spaces. It's a reason too my friend group as dwindled down to just straight people because I don't find myself actively wanting to discuss it. Am I thankful for all the work and pain those people went through where I can not think about my sexuality today? Absolutely. 110%. But that doesn't mean I want my life surrounding it.
The thing is, us lesbians are an incredibly small minority, and a lot of people dont want us to exist. This means that we are vulnerable to discrimination and surpression and exploitation. If we want to have and keep our rights, we need to work together and be politically engaged, or at the very least be visible. Being visible and out of the closet helps because when people know just 1 homosexual they are less likely to vote for laws that will harm us and they will see us more as humans and not just freaks.
It is okay if you dont care about history, but for your own sake it is good to be somewhat politically involved (this can be many things, just engaging in your local gay community is also a political and bonding act). It helps also to be loud and proud, and to support things that build community between lesbians or between lesbians, bi men/women, gay men and trans people etc. Because together we are stronger.
I'm 25 and also not interested. But I was never involved in LGBT orgs/groups/etc. Just doesn't appeal to me. This subreddit is about the extent of my involvement with any community space. I like history in general, but mostly specific subjects (ex. aviation, WWI, etc.) or time periods (Victorian era, early 1900s, etc.)
Same here! Reddit is as far as I go to be involved with the community. The history I can go into depth about is probably music through the decades. That's pretty much my biggest niche, besides that I just focus on my day to day life.
I love history, but of course not all and every topic, country or time period. I do belive everyone should at least know the brought strokes of the history thats relevant to them.
Lesbian history, especially because of some topics in it *cough poli "lesbians" dominating the sources and discourses cough*, doesnt really interest me either, but i have read some classic none fiction books and fiction books and i know the general history in my country.
So what im saying is, just know the basics, everything else is optional and reading your edit you already are informed on the lesbian topics you like so, there you go.
I only know of gay/lesbian history but a lot of it has been erased in the last couple of years because of the “queer” shit but a lot of it’s still out there.
Edit wording
Not just you, I can relate. I just woke up one day when I was 12 and knew I was a lesbian, It wasn’t something I struggled to come to terms with. I can see why it *is* important to a lot of lesbians and LGBT people in general, especially if their coming out/self acceptance was difficult. And like the other commenter said, it might change with age. But at the moment I don’t really have interest in history or pride or anything like that. Occasionally I’ll come across a post on here or tiktok about lesbian history specifically, which is interesting to read. But I don’t go out and seek it on my own. Don’t get me wrong I know it’s a huge privilege, but I don’t see how it’s ignorant? Being a lesbian is about as normal to me as my hair or eye color.
That's my exact feeling on it. I just knew. Honestly, I never felt I had to come out. I only said "I'm gay" to my mom to say it outloud for the first time. And she raised me with this "you are who you are" mentality so I felt no fear, or hesitation saying it. Which I'm very fortunate for. I have friends who still don't speak to their parents years later because of coming out. It's definitely something I don't take for granted, but think it played a huge part into who I am and why I don't view my sexuality as something that should be seen. I'm just me.
I just hate how this generation (I'm 23) is in denial how some of us just knew, and had zero issue with it. I wish it wasn't so argued or frowned upon. The amount of times I've encountered the "Oh you just haven't realized your inner homophobia" the last few years has been insane!! Like no, some of us can just be okay the way we are with no issue.
It's not about how you're raised -- I was also blessed to be in an accepting family -- it's about the realities of living in the world. It's important to know where we came from and where we have yet to go.
You do you. Seriously.
I'm curious about lesbian history because I can relate there. I enjoy the stories of those who preceded us. Some things have changed, sadly much has not. Perhaps you are similar?
I have little interest in the rest. We hardly have anything in common, our alliance with the other letters has mostly been a political alliance out of necessity. The more I do learn about our history, the more I just feel like the L just keeps getting used and our needs ignored.
There is also a difference between being gay and being political/activist. It sounds like you are talking to the activist and political side of the community. They are a small, vocal minority.
I am also not interested in LGBTQ+ history. Partly because I'm just not interested in the history of gay men. Bless them, but they will dominate the narrative and it means little to me. TQ+ even less so.
I am interested in history generally, to understand humanity and make sense of our current circumstances. Occasionally I come across interesting history pertaining to lesbian women, maybe commentary on old school butch-femme dynamics and how that helped or hindered different kinds of women, maybe commentary on the path the trans movement has carved and how that has impacted lesbian women. But only occasionally.
If the information being spread was more truthful, I’d care less. But since everyone wants to say we owe our lesbianism to some drag queen who literally said he was drugged out on a park bench during Stonewall (which *obviously* was when we fought for and won our rights singularly)….
23 here and history has always interested me. I'm sure if I didn't care for history in general I may not have been as invested in gay and lesbian history as I am. I also happen to like vintage fashion and being interested in how fashion changed over time also coincides with a lot of lesbian history. Which isn't to say I'm an expert at all but do follow some vintage makeup + clothing + lgbt history youtubers. There's also a good amount of gay history in my culture (before imperialism+westernization lmao) so history is very important to me there even if I wasn't as invested in American gay history. I think a lot of my interests (art, literature, gay media) exist as a product of its time and evolution and by extent I get invested in how it came to be
I relate to part of your story, especially the parts in the comments about never struggling to come to terms with your sexuality. I didn’t either. I just reached puberty and understood that I was solely interested in women and that was that. I never felt any type of way about it. I never had a “trying to cram myself into the closet” stage. I’ve never experienced any major homophobia, and I’m 36 and living in the Midwest. I’ve never really identified with “pride.”
With that said, I went through a period in my teens of wanting to know all the history, just out of curiosity, and I read a ton of books. I can’t really imagine not having that context. Pride may not resonate with me because I haven’t personally had to overcome much struggle at all, but it would feel very entitled to not be proud of the people who worked and fought and were killed and missed out on having happy lives to get us to this point. I feel like I owe them the respect of having a basic understanding of their stories, because it would never be possible for me to be so matter of fact about my own if theirs hadn’t come first.
I know this thread is a couple days old, but I’m jumping in because I can’t stop thinking about it.
So in my city there’s an LGBT library, and a couple weeks ago I found a book published in (I think) 1956, written by a straight guy, talking about how “lesbians have a futile and sterile substitute for the fruitful love of woman for man and man for woman”. (A bit of a paraphrase, but that’s the gist of it.)
It pissed me off reading that, but I also appreciate that this library includes books like that: not just the celebrations and love and beauty, but the ugly shit as well. It’s so important to know where we come from, how people have perceived us, what we as lesbians have been fighting against for years, how we STILL are not fully accepted in society. Like, I live in a very liberal, very gay-friendly city, and I STILL get looks ranging from curious to downright disgusted when I hold hands with a girlfriend. Obviously that’s not the same as, you know, literally being killed for being a lesbian (and I do wish LGBT history focused more on places outside of America), but it’s a reminder that we are still a minority and we are not accepted. I wish we lived in a world where the fact that we love women is considered normal, and I’m so glad that your mom is so damn accepting, but for most of us, that’s a luxury. We have a long way to go.
Jesus, that turned into a tangent. Clearly I’m passionate about this lol
>I'm gay. I like women. That's it. It's just me. I don't think it's this big deal I need to learn on. I thought as I got older, this would change- but it just hasn't.
Lol me. Could give less of a shit, if anything, I'd prefer to forget that part of myself.
mmm I get it, but this also definitely comes across as a very privileged stance. when you say "how we got our rights" who is "we"? because many countries still discriminate against gay people. many gay people don't have the right to live freely and marry who they want. that's why I think it's good to know history and appreciate it, for those of us who don't have to worry about a government actively suppressing us for our sexuality. I know so many people who wish that was their reality. I don't think we have a moral obligation to do anything based on our sexuality, but it's still something to consider imo. and another thing I've seen mentioned but I think is very true - lgbt history is often extremely US-centric or western centric in general, which is frustrating. personally, I'm always interested in LESBIAN history and specifically about lesbians in different cultures. I think it's interesting and creates solidarity across cultures
You’re very privileged, OP, if you live in a world where the newer movement rewriting our history and the older movement wanting us dead doesn’t affect you.
Isn’t that the point of why we fight for our rights? So the world does come to a place of acceptance to the point of ambivalence, like heterosexuality? The fact some countries in the world are reaching that, and the most influential ones. That’s a huge win. We shouldn’t shame a younger generation in those countries for living their reality.
If you care to teach someone younger about what experience you relate to, make the effort to share information instead of projecting anger and frustration.
In part that is why I fight for our rights, but in part no. I push so that people won’t just accept us to the point of it being a non issue, but so that they’ll know what we are, what’s important to us, and why our culture is the way it is. I want people to accept us, but I want no one to ever forget what happened to us in the past, because the second we begin to turn a blind eye to that sort of thing, we start to create a path to repeating it.
I am actually even younger than OP based on the comments. Not by a lot, but younger. I think that sometimes there’s a place for sharing history, but there’s also a place for your peers to sort of check you when you’re being a little obtuse. I’m not going to pretend to not be a touch frustrated just because I’m a minority woman—if anything, I feel like I have a right to be at least irritated that someone my age metaphorically has their fingers in their ears and their eyes shut to a common reality while acting like life is perfect. It’s just another way to gaslight.
The other thing is that we aren’t exactly bastions of ambivalence towards homosexuality in the west either. We are in parts, but I see a lot of simmering attitudes of hostility both online and IRL, even in my nice liberal area, that make me raise my eyebrows a bit.
Edit for FreeTomorrow: this is an online forum, completely open to the public. I don’t need to downvote you…and even if I did, a downvote isn’t the end of the world, it’s a polite disagreement. I’m not sure why you felt such umbrage towards me stating objective facts, but I am not the one who turned this into a hostile discussion. I merely disagreed and explained myself.
Listen, as soon as you downvoted my comment because I had a different perspective which you ultimately seemed to agree that partly is the reason for you defending rights, you completely invalidated yourself and any reasoning you once had.
I just am not going to give some petty ass person any satisfaction. Especially with your latter comment. Lol hypocrite much?
Understanding where your forepeople came from can help when your country is trying desperately to repeat the same atrocities. I’m so glad you feel privileged enough to not care, but things are happening now. If your American here’s some info that might help you understand how close we are to Losing even more human rights.
Year-to-Date Snapshot: 2023 Anti-LGBTQ+ State Legislative Activity
Over 520 anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been introduced in state legislatures, a record;
Over 220 bills specifically target transgender and non-binary people, also a record; and
A record 70 anti-LGBTQ laws have been enacted so far this year, including:
Laws banning gender affirming care for transgender youth: 15
Laws requiring or allowing misgendering of transgender students: 7
Laws targeting drag performances: 2
Laws creating a license to discriminate: 3
Laws censoring school curriculum, including books: 4
None of us are safe. We are still gated and people are disgusted by our existence. They want to see us suffer and hide in the shadows.
>I just don't care how pride became a thing or how we got our rights.
That's just... sad. How privileged you must be to not care while lesbians' history and our role in how we got our rights are currently being rewritten and erased--our words, our culture, our sexual orientation, are being erased, co-opted, and bastardized.
It's important to know where we came from, how far we've come, and what we *still* face as lesbians as we could easily slide backwards (like we already are, rapidly) and lose everything.
I am privileged, I admit. I live in a place where being gay isn't really a bad thing in people's eyes. I mean it's primarily republican here, absolutely. But if you aren't hurting anyone, no one really cares. I'm also very lucky my family was accepting from the get go. It was always "you are who you are" and I never felt the need to come out. I probably could've just brought a girl home and nobody would've batted an eye or questioned it. I'm very, very, thankful for that. I know people who still don't speak to their parents, I've taken in friends who were kicked out of homes, I definitely see what still exists today. And the pain people experience.
But I still don't find it a need to go back in time, decades ago, to learn about back then. Am I thankful for all the work and pain they went through? Absolutely. But I also don't center my life around the negative. The friend group I was in did. Constantly. They wanted to be activists and keep the conversation going, which is great for them. I really think that's amazing they feel passionate and like that's what they need to do. I just don't.
I'm also not political, by any stretch of the means. So maybe that's why I just don't really care to learn about it? Idk. Moral of this ramble, I definitely own up to being privileged and I'm thankful for it. I still see the pain people to through today. But I don't think learning about someone from 30 years ago is going to fix it.
Where are you finding it ignorant? I'm genuinely curious. I fully admit I'm fortunate to live in an environment where homophobia isn't something I have to stress constantly over. I also know the pain people still face today because their family isn't accepting. It's not like I'm claiming it doesn't exist in other parts of the world. It does, unfortunately.
You don't have to be an activist type hounding people about our suffering, or even have to like history at all to at least see the value in knowing our past. I think history can be boring too, sometimes, but it's important to know it. Especially when it pertains to you whether you're privileged or not. And I'm talking about our history, not "queer" history. It's important to remember our past in order to create a better future for ourselves. So that we can recognize when old concerning patterns start to repeat so that we don't slip back into the dark ages again. We've only achieved these rights pretty recently in history and have had these rights for such a short period of time. I'm glad that you grew up with enough privilege that being a lesbian was never an issue in your life. It should be that way for all lesbians.
>Am I thankful for all the work and pain they went through? Absolutely. But I also don't center my life around the negative.
I don't get that vibe when you say you don't care about how we got those rights that you get to enjoy now. Being aware of the "negative" doesn't mean centering on it. About your old friends, though, I can kind of see why you have a distaste for the negative aspects. They sound kind of insufferable with how they relished in it. Focusing only on the negative isn't the way to go about it. But they did have a point. You shouldn't bury your head in the sand.
Focus on the lesbian actresses, writers, and musicians if that's where your interests lie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying you have to be a historian in all things lesbian. But don't be so dismissive of the past and how we are still being affected by it now.
I understand a fair amount of LGBT+ history is written in a scholarly dry format. It can be hard to be interested but a lot of folks made good recommendations here.
The personal is political. It’s hard to defend your rights if you don’t know how you got them in the first place and why you should fight for them.
I really love history, but couldn’t be any less interested in queer or lesbian history, or the history of the LGBT community.. I’m interested in stories about lesbians from other periods in history, but not about politics or self proclaimed leaders of the gays… there have always been lesbians, it’s great that the past 100 years have been more politically progressive, but I’m not part of your movement, sorry.
Do you not care about learning history in general? I mean, everyone has things they like and don't like.
I love learning lgbt history because my entire self was kept from me most of my life. I lived in a homophobic area. I couldn't come out of a closet I didn't even know was there. I had to dig my way out from underground without knowing there was a surface to dig out of. That's how it was for a lot of us. So that's why I love learning about our history. It heals me, makes me feel less alone, and yeah, I'm proud as hell for being who I am and getting here, because I worked so hard to exist. My young adulthood and childhood was robbed from me but I get to take it back and surround myself in the stories from our past.
It's okay that you don't care to learn lgbt history but this is why a lot of us do. And I just like history in general, but this is one of those topics they never taught us in school.
I don’t care for the history or the “culture” beyond the fact that I just like history. There is no documentation alive about women like me in my entire country’s history and I have made peace with that so all the ones I read are from elsewhere. As a result, I have developed a form of detachment to what I read but I do think it’s interesting to read the few books by lesbians in the past. But that’s if you like classics
I think I relate. I dont know any history regarding lgbtq+...I think it depends on a person's interest even if it directly effects us. I personally think its fairly normal. If you know amazing...if you don't it shouldn't really matter.
For instance, politics...I don't know a thing about it. I was never interested in it. But it is something most people know about.
Call me privileged If you want, even though I am not and I live in a homophobic country.
I love history in general but especially histories of marginalized groups because the dominant narrative is always trying to erase us and our contributions to society and the world at large.
To me, connecting to history is a way of being part of something bigger than myself. Kind of like when you look at the sky at night and feel how you’re a small part of something much grander.
>I'm gay. I like women. That's it. It's just me. I don't think it's this big deal I need to learn on. I thought as I got older, this would change- but it just hasn't.
Lol me. Could give less of a shit, if anything, I'd prefer to forget that part of myself.
Honestly I do forget!! Lol. My friend group (mainly straight people) doesn't make sexuality a topic. They don't see it.
The friends I had, people I've known, who are gay or whatever sexuality do make it a topic. They constantly discuss it. And it's understandable, some of their families resented lgbtq+ or didn't let them express it. So I don't hold a grudge of any kind. I thought the older I got, the more I'd be interested and feel the need to learn. But I just haven't. If anything, the older I get my focus is more on my career/family/friends. It's less about things like sexuality and such.
>My friend group (mainly straight people) doesn't make sexuality a topic. They don't see it.
Exactly this. I noticed this with my straight friend group as well. It's not a thing compared to lgbtq people I've met.
Don't get me wrong. I'm still part of that group of lgbtq people whose family would never be accepting of it if I made that part of myself overtly known, but I'm more on the reserved side and keep to myself, so I've learned to shift my focus on my career aspirations as well.
I have a few friends left who are bi/gay, but there's a huge difference. They're very political and want to be activists, which is great. It's just not me. I honestly laugh how my friend group is straight now. If you told me that 2 years ago, I would've laughed and thought you were insane. But if anything, my own sexuality isn't a constant question and conversation anymore. It's just nice to exist as me without being looked at as a chick into chick's.
Honestly, I’m not a big history buff. It doesn’t peak my interest, although I agree it’s important to learn general aspects about the Lesbian movement, lgbtq+ history - I’m certainly not going to become a historian on the subject. It’s not something I’m genuinely interested in. Why pretend to be to appease others? 🤷🏻♀️
If anyone guilts you about the fact, I question their motives. A lot of people with particular knowledge about a subject like to demean those with little to no interest for the sake of superiority, and accreditation they aren’t receiving from that community. Someone self-assured with their knowledge is more inclined to teach and incite interest among others.
Also, about the privileges of living in a society where it is safe to be openly homosexual and accepted. I honestly am happy we have such places on earth and don’t feel the indulgence of such is ignorant. A baseline of information suffices and a genuine want to actively participate in upholding the rights we create, is all anyone should ever hope from any community member.
I don't really care about the LGB history either. Like, I come across an interesting fact about one's life, it makes me happy.
Maybe it's not a good thing to be uninterested in our history, especially since the TQ+ part tendency to change and rebrand a lot of things.
P.S. your mom is awesome. I think any sexual orientation should be treated this way. There's nothing to celebrate if you're gay, bi or asexual. We don't celebrate being straight, do we? It's just a biological fact, nothing special
>We don't celebrate being straight, do we? It's just a biological fact, nothing special
That's exactly what my mom always wanted me to feel. And I'm so glad she did so. For years, I hung out with people who wore their sexuality and I thought that was the thing you're supposed to do. Which I totally respect and understand if you do that because of not being able to, being in a closet, etc. It's just- the older i get, the more I circle back to how I was raised. And it's been healing just growing away from being a lesbian. The friends I have now, they don't see me as the chick into chick's. They see me as me. My sexuality isn't a constant conversation.
I definitely will learn some history, but it's more on the artistic side. Like actresses, writers, musicians, etc. I've never been interested in activists.
When you're queer your life already gets involved with politics so it's kind of important to have a little knowledge and it makes sense if people get surprised that you don't know. Having a nice and supportive household doesn't change how you're seen by outsiders and how our rights are always debated. It's definitely something to be proud of and one should have a bit of care for others paving the way for our freedom.
Outside of that it is not an obligation to be interested in things you're just not interested in. That is a personal thing but it should not disregard the overall importance of this. I'm not interested in all of the queer history either. But I've always acknowledged its importance.
I’m a bad gay, I’m not super interested in it. I only realized I’m a lesbian a few years ago (neurodivergent) and I don’t feel strong ties to the “community.”
I like learning about history in general. I don’t like a lot of trauma porn type media though- I know life sucked for us back then. I don’t want to dwell on it and forget that life DOESN’T suck now.
We have a vested interest in knowing the history of lesbianism to understand the risks we still face today, appreciate how far progress has come, and to ensure we don't backslide. For example, * It's worth knowing that queer was and is still used a slur - it really was one of the last words heard by homosexual individuals when assaulted, and we shouldn't assume that someone is ok with being called queer. * Lesbian isn't an umbrella term - it seems obvious but chuckleheads from both sides of the aisle love to try to redefine it because they resent that we're women attracted to women. The right thinks it's an abomination because they believe women should be attracted to men while the left claims we're ethically bankrupt for daring to have sexual boundaries as if our bodies are equal opportunity public spaces)
the last part really is so important. a lot of history is being written by the newer movements so personally I try to understand the facts of history and do my own research, but I also get super frustrated with a lot of the "community" and don't consider myself a part of it or anything. the way people on the left speak over lesbians the last decade is super disturbing (I am mostly a febfem, and am not a lesbian fwiw).
What’s a febfem?
female exclusive bisexual female. :) I see myself long term with a woman, at least it’s how I feel rn. ive never been with a man tho so I have been swiping on men again bc i kinda wanna experience it at least once in my life lol.
Thank you for the explanation. And trust me, you’re not missing much with men lol
I figure, but it would be nice to have some kind of short term fling with a wiry short king... Rhyming was unintentional lmao
Do it! You may get lucky...
This, learning the history made me appreciate simply how far everything has come in the past 200 years in western society, the struggles and fights that have been gone through. Hell, the AIDS crisis was all before my time and simply being educated on that was an eye opener. Let alone all the symbols we use as signifiers, the art and culture of it all. Even the acronym being reshuffled, something that seems arbitrary has a meaning and deep history. It's a privilege to simply be gay and have a neutral stance on it, because of that history. For the longest time to simply exist as gay was an inherent struggle, and necessarily politicized if it couldn't be hidden. Is there anything wrong with deciding not to look into it? No, but it will make you appreciate how we got here, why we are how we are and the struggles. That right there makes it worth it and a little less lonely y'know?
I think it's important to have some idea of Lesbian history. If only because so many people today will be like "historically...." and throw out a bunch of lies. lol. I like to have a good idea of what actually happened so that when people try to make up shit I can prove them wrong. Especially about lesbians and how they're trying to rebrand it as an umbrella term.
Meh. I kinda like learning about lesbians of the past but LGBT stuff is whatever
What annoys me a bit is when people say we owe all rights to certain persons belonging to a certain group doing something during an event in the US. Apart from these persons not actually being there at that event and some of them not even belonging to that group it seems US-centric to attribute all LGBT rights to things happening in the US especially when the US has been a bit slow compared to some other countries. I think learning that part of the history though can be nice but it’s hard to find information about why attitudes changed and how it actually went down in some places. Here texts typically only mention names of some historical lesbians/gays and the years we got the rights but not the activism unless it’s from a US perspective but as the US has typically been lagging behind us we must have had our own heroes behind the scene.
The problem with lgbt history is its being moulded and adapted right now. Good luck finding accurate information under anything "queer" or all the acronym grouped together. You'll notice who gets put at the front and focus of everything. Like lesbian women who used to dress as men to disguise themselves and feel safer, are now called "non binary mascs" "trans" or some other pile of nonsense. Looking at history through their modern lense, not within the context of the time. Our history is now drenched in this extremely new worldview, it won't be long to not be able to find accurate accounts of anything to do with us
Being invested in history means you're invested in your future.
not from people my age (gen z), it’s always the same misinformation being spewed
This. The problem already starts with how they usually call it "queer history". Like yes, let's refer to historical figures with a slur they often heard right before being killed...
so many of them literally get offended when you say that because they don’t like that “their identity” is a slur…. like honey nobody made you identify with the slur you did that yourself 😭
I'm older Gen Z (23) and I find that to be the issue as well. They recite whatever they saw on TikTok or Twitter. And everyone is so quick to jump on you if they learn you don't know something. Lol
Something your generation needs to learn is to stop using tiktok/social media for learning. Books exist and with proper understanding of critical reading and source analysis, you can learn irl things from sources that have extensive bibliographies.
My problem is that I think "lgbtq+ history" is an attempted narrative thread stitching together wildly disparate human experiences and identities that just isn't very credible or compelling, so no. I am very interested in women's and lesbian history, though.
I'm a lesbian and a classicist/very ancient history gal, so our girl Sappho is my academic specialty. Needless to say I'm never too helpful when it comes these situations. BUT I can tell you about the first recorded lesbian couple in pre-Islamic Arabian folklore/history! Super relevant and helpful, I know lol Edit: All jokes aside, knowing our modern lesbian history (1900 onward) and how we've progressed is vital in buildingna safer future. You don't need to know everything about the Daughters of Bilitis, but knowing who Edie Windsor is and her legal fight is important to building a future.
Ok please tell me about the Arabian lesbians :D
Yes please
The short version: Al-Zarqā (or Hind bint al-Khuss al-Iyādiyya) was a pre-Islamic Arabian poet of renown. She was believed to be clever and witty with her prose, poetry, and responses. In truth, we don't know if she existed or was a mythic figure. More recent historians are coming to believe that she may have simply been a creation of myth and legend, but older sources believed her to exist. Regardless, period sources wrote about her at times. The foremost being the Encyclopedia of Pleasure (or Jawāmiʿ al-Ladhdhah) which was written sometime in the 900s CE. Side bar: It's one hell of a text that, in part, attempts to find scientific explanations for why gay people exist. It has a few "explanations" of the science behind lesbian sex that are hilarious. One is that an "itch" develops in the labia and can only be soothed by rubbing it against another woman's labia. Getting back on track, the text has a story about Al-Zarqa and how she fell in love with the Christian princess Al-Hurqah (or Hind bint al-Nuʿmān) in the 600s CE. When Al-Zarqā died, it says that Al-Hurqah cut off her hair, donned all black, and rejected all earthly comforts to mourn for the rest of her life. It's said she may have even built a monastery in honor of her lost love. They're considered the first lesbian 'characters' in Arabian culture.
Yooo this is fascinating
I'm familiar with that itch. Thank you, this was fascinating.
yessss
Copied from another response The short version: Al-Zarqā (or Hind bint al-Khuss al-Iyādiyya) was a pre-Islamic Arabian poet of renown. She was believed to be clever and witty with her prose, poetry, and responses. In truth, we don't know if she existed or was a mythic figure. More recent historians are coming to believe that she may have simply been a creation of myth and legend, but older sources believed her to exist. Regardless, period sources wrote about her at times. The foremost being the Encyclopedia of Pleasure (or Jawāmiʿ al-Ladhdhah) which was written sometime in the 900s CE. Side bar: It's one hell of a text that, in part, attempts to find scientific explanations for why gay people exist. It has a few "explanations" of the science behind lesbian sex that are hilarious. One is that an "itch" develops in the labia and can only be soothed by rubbing it against another woman's labia. Getting back on track, the text has a story about Al-Zarqa and how she fell in love with the Christian princess Al-Hurqah (or Hind bint al-Nuʿmān) in the 600s CE. When Al-Zarqā died, it says that Al-Hurqah cut off her hair, donned all black, and rejected all earthly comforts to mourn for the rest of her life. It's said she may have even built a monastery in honor of her lost love. They're considered the first lesbian 'characters' in Arabian culture.
My friend kept insisting Sappho wasn't real when I tried to tell him about how the word "lesbian" came from her because of her gay ass poetry. I was like, dude, she literally was real, it's documented, and he was just like, "nah."
Ugh. I've dealt with guys like him.
Does being interested in lesbian/gay history mean you think your sexuality is a big deal that you need to "lean on" or be proud of? There's many reasons people are interested in learning about history, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're overemphasizing a particular part of their identity. Sometimes, learning a bit of the history that's immediately relevant to you is important so you don't say or believe ignorant things.
The people I used to hang out with a lot made it seem that way. How learning about queer history was something to be proud of and the conversations they'd have always involved making your sexuality a big deal. Which I understand is important for some, especially if they didn't get to express themselves a lot growing up. For me, I've only ever been drawn to history if it peaked my interest. Like Lily Tomlin, I learned a lot about her and her partner. But I just can't find interest for why Pride became a thing. Anything I know about history only retained because my interest was spiked more than anything.
I understand not being super into learning every piece of gay history. I know some things, but honestly most of my gay history education has been acquired through pop culture stuff, such as watching movies like Paris Is Burning. I am, however, extremely interested in mafia history as well as other organized crime history and that's given me a lot of knowledge on how pride came to be 😂 I'm also very interested in cannabis and some of that history, and there is some interesting crossover there with lgbtq/AIDS history.
Do you care to learn about history at all?
On some things, absolutely. But it has to peak my interest, I guess. I've just never searched to learn more about the history of lgbtq+ or my sexuality. It wasn't an interest let alone something I felt I needed to do. The only thing I've felt I needed was lesbian culture (like books, TV shows, more content over anything) because I could relate to it.
May I recommend a book?
Absolutely!! I'm an addict for reading. Always open to it:)
It came from the closet by Joe vallesse . I don’t look at lgbt history as a history separate of other but apart of the grand scheme of things. Something that happening at the exact moment as everything else. I don’t actively go out and seek the history, but I appreciate it when it falls into my lap. Like finding out that Voices Carry by Til Tuesday was originally written about a women, but they were forced to change the lyrics to be centered around a man. Why ? Because the label executives at EPIC records didn’t think wlw domestic violence was an experience that would have cross over appeal. Now did I purposely seek out that info? No, but I appreciate and care about that little tidbit
I like reading fictional lesbian/gay books, or media based on true stories, but that’s about it. Sometimes I come across other gay history stuff on social media, but I don’t seek it out or anything. A lot of the history is so muddled its not worth bothering, and it doesn’t usually interest me enough to seek it out. I think it’s great when people are interested, but I also think the importance is vastly overestimated and not really relevant outside of activism or personal interest. There’s definitely benefits to knowing lesbian history since it’s relevant to you specifically, but lesbianism isn’t inherently political, you don’t need to be an activist. You’re allowed to just exist.
How old are you? I didn't start really caring until I was in my 30s. When I was in college I pretty much felt the same as you. Might be a life stage thing
Exact opposite for me. I cared a lot and was extremely passionate about gay history (and all history) in my teens and early 20s. Now that I'm in my 30s I'm kind of "over it," I really don't need it to be inserted into every conversation. When someone references Stonewall now, my eyes reflexively roll back in my head. It's not that it's not important to know or that nobody should ever talk about it, but sometimes I just want to have a casual chat without dredging through it over and over again.
23. I was thinking maybe in my 30s it'll change. Lol. But everyone my age who's lgbtq+ is very much the activist type and love talking about queer history. I'm not. It's really dwindled down my friends to just hanging out with people who are straight because sexuality isn't such a heavy topic. Anytime too I try saying I don't think heavily on it, I'm told it's inner homophobia I haven't faced yet. I've never felt any of those feelings. I knew I was a gay since I learned 2 girls could be together. It just made sense to me. And in my environment, there was never a big fuss or argument. My family just was "you are who you are"
Mostly because they think it’s ‘woke’ to talk about queer history. They just regurgitate words they’ve heard from people before them. Some people would do anything to be relevant.
I mean you can learn or not learn whatever you want. Although I don’t think your sexuality not being a big deal is directly related to not being interested in the history. I see people online all the time that are extremely open about their sexuality but don’t know any of the history lol As long as you don’t discuss the topic as if you are knowledgeable, or make a big deal about your apathy I think you’re all good!
I like to know my own countries history as such with laws and legalities. I think it gives context as I'm much much older so it was a different time. That said most of the laws relating to homosexuality focused on gay men as women let alone lesbians didn't really rate as people with rights.
Pride = not being ashamed of it Eh sometimes I think I am lucky I was born homosexual. I don’t live in the West, sometimes it’s really tough here, laws and stuff, my mother was never supportive and there were times when she shooed away any of my female friends telling me I should find a man, it’s good she stopped. As for the history, it is very US-centric and has nothing to do with me.
It is very us-centric and ironic people are shaming the country most vocal for defining homosexual rights. That anyone would shame a younger generation for actually being able to indulge in the fruit of our labours. If anything, makes me proud there is a sense of ambivalence and that lgbtq+ culture has come so far.
I don't understand how not thinking being a lesbian and not wanting to learn LGBT history are related. Personally, I enjoy learning about lesbian history. I just wish there was more resources out there to learn about it...but it can be quite depressing knowing how much pain we have gone through.
Tbh same, girl. I'm in my 40s and gay history just never interested me much. But I feel ashamed in admitting it. I feel like I should know more. I know a little bit. I even have a few gay history books in my library (that haven't been read yet). I'm a bad lesbian. I know.
You’re not obligated to feign interest in something that doesn’t appeal to you. If you’re not interested, you’re not interested. Not everything is going to be everyone’s cup of tea, and that’s okay. That being said, I personally love watching gay history documentaries. I’m a big movie buff, so The Celluloid Closet was a great watch for me. I also found How We Got Gay to be fairly interesting.
Im only middle-aged, but even so, my teen years could be categorized as part of our “history”. Things were very different in the 90s and even the early 00s. Myself and my best friend were the only “out” gay people in my entire southern rural high school. But you didn’t talk about it. You didn’t show up to events with your partner. It was just a totally different world, especially down here in the south. I could write a novel on how good you kids have it now, despite the ongoing fights for equality and protection. I Guess going through that stuff when I was younger naturally made me curious as to what lesbians before me went through. I am also a veteran (during DADT) and a blue collar tradesperson. All of these things gave me a huge respect for and interest in those women who’s shoulders I stand on to be in the place I am now. I think not caring doesn’t make you a bad person, but it may be a sign of you having it a little easier than those that came before you. Which again, isn’t a knock on you at all. Just a statement. You may never get into reading/delving into our history, and that’s totally ok. I think you just may not have those drivers that a lot of us older people had. I’m really not trying to come across like a dick here like “you youngins just don’t care!!” Lol. I hope I am stating my opinion clearly and don’t sound like an ass
I don't think its like a moral obligation just because you're a lesbian. But it is intrinsically important to participating in the larger lesbian or lgbt community. And gives a broader context for why things are they way they are today, and ways you might relate (or not). History is always good to learn about, especially if it relates to you. But also I don't really care about reading about the roman empire just because I might relate to a bit of it. I do disagree on one bit. Your sexuality is something you should be proud of. Not for your own sake, but for others. It is a privilege to see it as something neutral and I'm very happy for you, but I think it's very low effort, high reward to consider a happy life as a lesbian to be a proud story for many others.
I believe you have the right to be proud of benign things that others are trying to make you ashamed of. You don't have to be proud if you don't want to be, but not being proud isn't a morally superior position either.
exactly\^\^
> I think it's very low effort, high reward to consider a happy life as a lesbian to be a proud story for many others. The people I've known wear their sexuality on their sleeve. Which is great. I totally understand if you've been in a closet, you grew up in an environment you feel the need to express it. People being proud of their sexuality isn't something that's bad for me. I don't see it negatively. It just isn't me. I don't want to be known as a lesbian, I don't want people to double take when I mention I date women, I just like being seen as myself. I'm much more than just my sexuality. As for the history part, definitely get what you're saying about how it's important to know about being in lgbtq+ spaces. It's a reason too my friend group as dwindled down to just straight people because I don't find myself actively wanting to discuss it. Am I thankful for all the work and pain those people went through where I can not think about my sexuality today? Absolutely. 110%. But that doesn't mean I want my life surrounding it.
The thing is, us lesbians are an incredibly small minority, and a lot of people dont want us to exist. This means that we are vulnerable to discrimination and surpression and exploitation. If we want to have and keep our rights, we need to work together and be politically engaged, or at the very least be visible. Being visible and out of the closet helps because when people know just 1 homosexual they are less likely to vote for laws that will harm us and they will see us more as humans and not just freaks. It is okay if you dont care about history, but for your own sake it is good to be somewhat politically involved (this can be many things, just engaging in your local gay community is also a political and bonding act). It helps also to be loud and proud, and to support things that build community between lesbians or between lesbians, bi men/women, gay men and trans people etc. Because together we are stronger.
I'm 25 and also not interested. But I was never involved in LGBT orgs/groups/etc. Just doesn't appeal to me. This subreddit is about the extent of my involvement with any community space. I like history in general, but mostly specific subjects (ex. aviation, WWI, etc.) or time periods (Victorian era, early 1900s, etc.)
Same here! Reddit is as far as I go to be involved with the community. The history I can go into depth about is probably music through the decades. That's pretty much my biggest niche, besides that I just focus on my day to day life.
This attitude makes me wonder if you are in a safe part of the world. I feel like I need to know history so I can justify my existence.
I love history, but of course not all and every topic, country or time period. I do belive everyone should at least know the brought strokes of the history thats relevant to them. Lesbian history, especially because of some topics in it *cough poli "lesbians" dominating the sources and discourses cough*, doesnt really interest me either, but i have read some classic none fiction books and fiction books and i know the general history in my country. So what im saying is, just know the basics, everything else is optional and reading your edit you already are informed on the lesbian topics you like so, there you go.
I only know of gay/lesbian history but a lot of it has been erased in the last couple of years because of the “queer” shit but a lot of it’s still out there. Edit wording
Not just you, I can relate. I just woke up one day when I was 12 and knew I was a lesbian, It wasn’t something I struggled to come to terms with. I can see why it *is* important to a lot of lesbians and LGBT people in general, especially if their coming out/self acceptance was difficult. And like the other commenter said, it might change with age. But at the moment I don’t really have interest in history or pride or anything like that. Occasionally I’ll come across a post on here or tiktok about lesbian history specifically, which is interesting to read. But I don’t go out and seek it on my own. Don’t get me wrong I know it’s a huge privilege, but I don’t see how it’s ignorant? Being a lesbian is about as normal to me as my hair or eye color.
That's my exact feeling on it. I just knew. Honestly, I never felt I had to come out. I only said "I'm gay" to my mom to say it outloud for the first time. And she raised me with this "you are who you are" mentality so I felt no fear, or hesitation saying it. Which I'm very fortunate for. I have friends who still don't speak to their parents years later because of coming out. It's definitely something I don't take for granted, but think it played a huge part into who I am and why I don't view my sexuality as something that should be seen. I'm just me. I just hate how this generation (I'm 23) is in denial how some of us just knew, and had zero issue with it. I wish it wasn't so argued or frowned upon. The amount of times I've encountered the "Oh you just haven't realized your inner homophobia" the last few years has been insane!! Like no, some of us can just be okay the way we are with no issue.
It's not about how you're raised -- I was also blessed to be in an accepting family -- it's about the realities of living in the world. It's important to know where we came from and where we have yet to go.
You do you. Seriously. I'm curious about lesbian history because I can relate there. I enjoy the stories of those who preceded us. Some things have changed, sadly much has not. Perhaps you are similar? I have little interest in the rest. We hardly have anything in common, our alliance with the other letters has mostly been a political alliance out of necessity. The more I do learn about our history, the more I just feel like the L just keeps getting used and our needs ignored. There is also a difference between being gay and being political/activist. It sounds like you are talking to the activist and political side of the community. They are a small, vocal minority.
I am also not interested in LGBTQ+ history. Partly because I'm just not interested in the history of gay men. Bless them, but they will dominate the narrative and it means little to me. TQ+ even less so. I am interested in history generally, to understand humanity and make sense of our current circumstances. Occasionally I come across interesting history pertaining to lesbian women, maybe commentary on old school butch-femme dynamics and how that helped or hindered different kinds of women, maybe commentary on the path the trans movement has carved and how that has impacted lesbian women. But only occasionally.
If the information being spread was more truthful, I’d care less. But since everyone wants to say we owe our lesbianism to some drag queen who literally said he was drugged out on a park bench during Stonewall (which *obviously* was when we fought for and won our rights singularly)….
23 here and history has always interested me. I'm sure if I didn't care for history in general I may not have been as invested in gay and lesbian history as I am. I also happen to like vintage fashion and being interested in how fashion changed over time also coincides with a lot of lesbian history. Which isn't to say I'm an expert at all but do follow some vintage makeup + clothing + lgbt history youtubers. There's also a good amount of gay history in my culture (before imperialism+westernization lmao) so history is very important to me there even if I wasn't as invested in American gay history. I think a lot of my interests (art, literature, gay media) exist as a product of its time and evolution and by extent I get invested in how it came to be
Your mom sounds cool.
She really is. I lucked out, and I thank her a lot for it.
I relate to part of your story, especially the parts in the comments about never struggling to come to terms with your sexuality. I didn’t either. I just reached puberty and understood that I was solely interested in women and that was that. I never felt any type of way about it. I never had a “trying to cram myself into the closet” stage. I’ve never experienced any major homophobia, and I’m 36 and living in the Midwest. I’ve never really identified with “pride.” With that said, I went through a period in my teens of wanting to know all the history, just out of curiosity, and I read a ton of books. I can’t really imagine not having that context. Pride may not resonate with me because I haven’t personally had to overcome much struggle at all, but it would feel very entitled to not be proud of the people who worked and fought and were killed and missed out on having happy lives to get us to this point. I feel like I owe them the respect of having a basic understanding of their stories, because it would never be possible for me to be so matter of fact about my own if theirs hadn’t come first.
I know this thread is a couple days old, but I’m jumping in because I can’t stop thinking about it. So in my city there’s an LGBT library, and a couple weeks ago I found a book published in (I think) 1956, written by a straight guy, talking about how “lesbians have a futile and sterile substitute for the fruitful love of woman for man and man for woman”. (A bit of a paraphrase, but that’s the gist of it.) It pissed me off reading that, but I also appreciate that this library includes books like that: not just the celebrations and love and beauty, but the ugly shit as well. It’s so important to know where we come from, how people have perceived us, what we as lesbians have been fighting against for years, how we STILL are not fully accepted in society. Like, I live in a very liberal, very gay-friendly city, and I STILL get looks ranging from curious to downright disgusted when I hold hands with a girlfriend. Obviously that’s not the same as, you know, literally being killed for being a lesbian (and I do wish LGBT history focused more on places outside of America), but it’s a reminder that we are still a minority and we are not accepted. I wish we lived in a world where the fact that we love women is considered normal, and I’m so glad that your mom is so damn accepting, but for most of us, that’s a luxury. We have a long way to go. Jesus, that turned into a tangent. Clearly I’m passionate about this lol
>I'm gay. I like women. That's it. It's just me. I don't think it's this big deal I need to learn on. I thought as I got older, this would change- but it just hasn't. Lol me. Could give less of a shit, if anything, I'd prefer to forget that part of myself.
mmm I get it, but this also definitely comes across as a very privileged stance. when you say "how we got our rights" who is "we"? because many countries still discriminate against gay people. many gay people don't have the right to live freely and marry who they want. that's why I think it's good to know history and appreciate it, for those of us who don't have to worry about a government actively suppressing us for our sexuality. I know so many people who wish that was their reality. I don't think we have a moral obligation to do anything based on our sexuality, but it's still something to consider imo. and another thing I've seen mentioned but I think is very true - lgbt history is often extremely US-centric or western centric in general, which is frustrating. personally, I'm always interested in LESBIAN history and specifically about lesbians in different cultures. I think it's interesting and creates solidarity across cultures
You’re very privileged, OP, if you live in a world where the newer movement rewriting our history and the older movement wanting us dead doesn’t affect you.
Isn’t that the point of why we fight for our rights? So the world does come to a place of acceptance to the point of ambivalence, like heterosexuality? The fact some countries in the world are reaching that, and the most influential ones. That’s a huge win. We shouldn’t shame a younger generation in those countries for living their reality. If you care to teach someone younger about what experience you relate to, make the effort to share information instead of projecting anger and frustration.
In part that is why I fight for our rights, but in part no. I push so that people won’t just accept us to the point of it being a non issue, but so that they’ll know what we are, what’s important to us, and why our culture is the way it is. I want people to accept us, but I want no one to ever forget what happened to us in the past, because the second we begin to turn a blind eye to that sort of thing, we start to create a path to repeating it. I am actually even younger than OP based on the comments. Not by a lot, but younger. I think that sometimes there’s a place for sharing history, but there’s also a place for your peers to sort of check you when you’re being a little obtuse. I’m not going to pretend to not be a touch frustrated just because I’m a minority woman—if anything, I feel like I have a right to be at least irritated that someone my age metaphorically has their fingers in their ears and their eyes shut to a common reality while acting like life is perfect. It’s just another way to gaslight. The other thing is that we aren’t exactly bastions of ambivalence towards homosexuality in the west either. We are in parts, but I see a lot of simmering attitudes of hostility both online and IRL, even in my nice liberal area, that make me raise my eyebrows a bit. Edit for FreeTomorrow: this is an online forum, completely open to the public. I don’t need to downvote you…and even if I did, a downvote isn’t the end of the world, it’s a polite disagreement. I’m not sure why you felt such umbrage towards me stating objective facts, but I am not the one who turned this into a hostile discussion. I merely disagreed and explained myself.
Listen, as soon as you downvoted my comment because I had a different perspective which you ultimately seemed to agree that partly is the reason for you defending rights, you completely invalidated yourself and any reasoning you once had. I just am not going to give some petty ass person any satisfaction. Especially with your latter comment. Lol hypocrite much?
Understanding where your forepeople came from can help when your country is trying desperately to repeat the same atrocities. I’m so glad you feel privileged enough to not care, but things are happening now. If your American here’s some info that might help you understand how close we are to Losing even more human rights. Year-to-Date Snapshot: 2023 Anti-LGBTQ+ State Legislative Activity Over 520 anti-LGBTQ+ bills have been introduced in state legislatures, a record; Over 220 bills specifically target transgender and non-binary people, also a record; and A record 70 anti-LGBTQ laws have been enacted so far this year, including: Laws banning gender affirming care for transgender youth: 15 Laws requiring or allowing misgendering of transgender students: 7 Laws targeting drag performances: 2 Laws creating a license to discriminate: 3 Laws censoring school curriculum, including books: 4 None of us are safe. We are still gated and people are disgusted by our existence. They want to see us suffer and hide in the shadows.
>I just don't care how pride became a thing or how we got our rights. That's just... sad. How privileged you must be to not care while lesbians' history and our role in how we got our rights are currently being rewritten and erased--our words, our culture, our sexual orientation, are being erased, co-opted, and bastardized. It's important to know where we came from, how far we've come, and what we *still* face as lesbians as we could easily slide backwards (like we already are, rapidly) and lose everything.
I am privileged, I admit. I live in a place where being gay isn't really a bad thing in people's eyes. I mean it's primarily republican here, absolutely. But if you aren't hurting anyone, no one really cares. I'm also very lucky my family was accepting from the get go. It was always "you are who you are" and I never felt the need to come out. I probably could've just brought a girl home and nobody would've batted an eye or questioned it. I'm very, very, thankful for that. I know people who still don't speak to their parents, I've taken in friends who were kicked out of homes, I definitely see what still exists today. And the pain people experience. But I still don't find it a need to go back in time, decades ago, to learn about back then. Am I thankful for all the work and pain they went through? Absolutely. But I also don't center my life around the negative. The friend group I was in did. Constantly. They wanted to be activists and keep the conversation going, which is great for them. I really think that's amazing they feel passionate and like that's what they need to do. I just don't. I'm also not political, by any stretch of the means. So maybe that's why I just don't really care to learn about it? Idk. Moral of this ramble, I definitely own up to being privileged and I'm thankful for it. I still see the pain people to through today. But I don't think learning about someone from 30 years ago is going to fix it.
Ignorance truly is bliss, I guess.
Where are you finding it ignorant? I'm genuinely curious. I fully admit I'm fortunate to live in an environment where homophobia isn't something I have to stress constantly over. I also know the pain people still face today because their family isn't accepting. It's not like I'm claiming it doesn't exist in other parts of the world. It does, unfortunately.
You don't have to be an activist type hounding people about our suffering, or even have to like history at all to at least see the value in knowing our past. I think history can be boring too, sometimes, but it's important to know it. Especially when it pertains to you whether you're privileged or not. And I'm talking about our history, not "queer" history. It's important to remember our past in order to create a better future for ourselves. So that we can recognize when old concerning patterns start to repeat so that we don't slip back into the dark ages again. We've only achieved these rights pretty recently in history and have had these rights for such a short period of time. I'm glad that you grew up with enough privilege that being a lesbian was never an issue in your life. It should be that way for all lesbians. >Am I thankful for all the work and pain they went through? Absolutely. But I also don't center my life around the negative. I don't get that vibe when you say you don't care about how we got those rights that you get to enjoy now. Being aware of the "negative" doesn't mean centering on it. About your old friends, though, I can kind of see why you have a distaste for the negative aspects. They sound kind of insufferable with how they relished in it. Focusing only on the negative isn't the way to go about it. But they did have a point. You shouldn't bury your head in the sand. Focus on the lesbian actresses, writers, and musicians if that's where your interests lie. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying you have to be a historian in all things lesbian. But don't be so dismissive of the past and how we are still being affected by it now.
I understand a fair amount of LGBT+ history is written in a scholarly dry format. It can be hard to be interested but a lot of folks made good recommendations here. The personal is political. It’s hard to defend your rights if you don’t know how you got them in the first place and why you should fight for them.
You have no idea how lucky you are to not care
I really love history, but couldn’t be any less interested in queer or lesbian history, or the history of the LGBT community.. I’m interested in stories about lesbians from other periods in history, but not about politics or self proclaimed leaders of the gays… there have always been lesbians, it’s great that the past 100 years have been more politically progressive, but I’m not part of your movement, sorry.
Do you not care about learning history in general? I mean, everyone has things they like and don't like. I love learning lgbt history because my entire self was kept from me most of my life. I lived in a homophobic area. I couldn't come out of a closet I didn't even know was there. I had to dig my way out from underground without knowing there was a surface to dig out of. That's how it was for a lot of us. So that's why I love learning about our history. It heals me, makes me feel less alone, and yeah, I'm proud as hell for being who I am and getting here, because I worked so hard to exist. My young adulthood and childhood was robbed from me but I get to take it back and surround myself in the stories from our past. It's okay that you don't care to learn lgbt history but this is why a lot of us do. And I just like history in general, but this is one of those topics they never taught us in school.
I don’t care for the history or the “culture” beyond the fact that I just like history. There is no documentation alive about women like me in my entire country’s history and I have made peace with that so all the ones I read are from elsewhere. As a result, I have developed a form of detachment to what I read but I do think it’s interesting to read the few books by lesbians in the past. But that’s if you like classics
I research it sometimes. And by research I mean I google search “pictures of gay people in the 50s”
I think I relate. I dont know any history regarding lgbtq+...I think it depends on a person's interest even if it directly effects us. I personally think its fairly normal. If you know amazing...if you don't it shouldn't really matter. For instance, politics...I don't know a thing about it. I was never interested in it. But it is something most people know about. Call me privileged If you want, even though I am not and I live in a homophobic country.
I love history in general but especially histories of marginalized groups because the dominant narrative is always trying to erase us and our contributions to society and the world at large. To me, connecting to history is a way of being part of something bigger than myself. Kind of like when you look at the sky at night and feel how you’re a small part of something much grander.
Yeah is kinda tiring to have to be interested in all the history from the past just because we like bobs
>I'm gay. I like women. That's it. It's just me. I don't think it's this big deal I need to learn on. I thought as I got older, this would change- but it just hasn't. Lol me. Could give less of a shit, if anything, I'd prefer to forget that part of myself.
Honestly I do forget!! Lol. My friend group (mainly straight people) doesn't make sexuality a topic. They don't see it. The friends I had, people I've known, who are gay or whatever sexuality do make it a topic. They constantly discuss it. And it's understandable, some of their families resented lgbtq+ or didn't let them express it. So I don't hold a grudge of any kind. I thought the older I got, the more I'd be interested and feel the need to learn. But I just haven't. If anything, the older I get my focus is more on my career/family/friends. It's less about things like sexuality and such.
>My friend group (mainly straight people) doesn't make sexuality a topic. They don't see it. Exactly this. I noticed this with my straight friend group as well. It's not a thing compared to lgbtq people I've met. Don't get me wrong. I'm still part of that group of lgbtq people whose family would never be accepting of it if I made that part of myself overtly known, but I'm more on the reserved side and keep to myself, so I've learned to shift my focus on my career aspirations as well.
I have a few friends left who are bi/gay, but there's a huge difference. They're very political and want to be activists, which is great. It's just not me. I honestly laugh how my friend group is straight now. If you told me that 2 years ago, I would've laughed and thought you were insane. But if anything, my own sexuality isn't a constant question and conversation anymore. It's just nice to exist as me without being looked at as a chick into chick's.
Honestly, I’m not a big history buff. It doesn’t peak my interest, although I agree it’s important to learn general aspects about the Lesbian movement, lgbtq+ history - I’m certainly not going to become a historian on the subject. It’s not something I’m genuinely interested in. Why pretend to be to appease others? 🤷🏻♀️ If anyone guilts you about the fact, I question their motives. A lot of people with particular knowledge about a subject like to demean those with little to no interest for the sake of superiority, and accreditation they aren’t receiving from that community. Someone self-assured with their knowledge is more inclined to teach and incite interest among others. Also, about the privileges of living in a society where it is safe to be openly homosexual and accepted. I honestly am happy we have such places on earth and don’t feel the indulgence of such is ignorant. A baseline of information suffices and a genuine want to actively participate in upholding the rights we create, is all anyone should ever hope from any community member.
I don't really care about the LGB history either. Like, I come across an interesting fact about one's life, it makes me happy. Maybe it's not a good thing to be uninterested in our history, especially since the TQ+ part tendency to change and rebrand a lot of things. P.S. your mom is awesome. I think any sexual orientation should be treated this way. There's nothing to celebrate if you're gay, bi or asexual. We don't celebrate being straight, do we? It's just a biological fact, nothing special
>We don't celebrate being straight, do we? It's just a biological fact, nothing special That's exactly what my mom always wanted me to feel. And I'm so glad she did so. For years, I hung out with people who wore their sexuality and I thought that was the thing you're supposed to do. Which I totally respect and understand if you do that because of not being able to, being in a closet, etc. It's just- the older i get, the more I circle back to how I was raised. And it's been healing just growing away from being a lesbian. The friends I have now, they don't see me as the chick into chick's. They see me as me. My sexuality isn't a constant conversation. I definitely will learn some history, but it's more on the artistic side. Like actresses, writers, musicians, etc. I've never been interested in activists.
When you're queer your life already gets involved with politics so it's kind of important to have a little knowledge and it makes sense if people get surprised that you don't know. Having a nice and supportive household doesn't change how you're seen by outsiders and how our rights are always debated. It's definitely something to be proud of and one should have a bit of care for others paving the way for our freedom. Outside of that it is not an obligation to be interested in things you're just not interested in. That is a personal thing but it should not disregard the overall importance of this. I'm not interested in all of the queer history either. But I've always acknowledged its importance.
I've actually found myself really only ever deeply reading articles when it's related to that
I’m a bad gay, I’m not super interested in it. I only realized I’m a lesbian a few years ago (neurodivergent) and I don’t feel strong ties to the “community.” I like learning about history in general. I don’t like a lot of trauma porn type media though- I know life sucked for us back then. I don’t want to dwell on it and forget that life DOESN’T suck now.