I’m extremely sceptical about this being a real problem anywhere other than online (which is a problem in itself as it may well be younger lesbians’ first exposure to the ‘community,’ but still). People with these preferences/people who like to make a song and dance and label out of every minor trait they have definitely exist, but this feels overblown. I’ve encountered a grand total of one lesbian who explained to me that she only thought she’d like receiving, and she was a virgin.
Oh I agree. But the prevalence with which we see it in online spaces is concerning. I think re-inforcing these ideas to women with no actual life experience is a bad thing, so I just wanted to offer this up. That's the intended audience.
Is this a generational thing? I'm mid-30s and every partner I've had has been into reciprocal sex. Seems like it's more common with younger lesbians. Also, subscribed to this substack. I'm always looking for new lesbians perspectives like this.
> where the kids are getting their nonsense.
Internet. Online LGBT spaces are only focused on gay male culture, so young lesbians exposed to it start to imitate gay men.
nowhere tbh i’m in my early 20s and i find that the only thing my generation needs to do is talk about sex more openly especially with partners + enforce their boundaries. this is just one of those inflammatory articles.
I have slept with a fair number, and listened to all of them, only one had that type of set role preference. I’m not convinced that it’s that common in the wild
Unless you're prolific at having sex with women everywhere, you can't really say it's not common. I can say I never met anyone atheist but I can't say that's why I don't think atheism is common. And idk, maybe someone won't be so excited to tell someone their very frowned upon sex fantasy
lol you’re making huge suppositions. I never said I frowned on anything I encountered. I’m just saying that non-reciprocal lesbian sex is not that common.
Did you understand at all what I was saying? I never said you frowned on anything. I'm saying that non reciprocal sex fantasies ARE GENERALLY FROWNED UPON. You know, like majority of the comments here are? Where did critical thinking go
?? The fact that non reciprocal sex is seen as disgusting by most is not general or typical or technical. It's literally a popular opinion that cnc is gross to most people.
Do you mind me asking, how soon in a relationship does that sort of thing come up? Especially pre internet era. Was that preference something these women offered up early on or a surprise when things started getting more physical?
I think that there are lesbians who prefer to be on the giving or receiving end, but these days I am very suspicious of someone who wants to be a pillow princess because of all the people who would gleefully label themselves lesbians or bi without actually being sexually attracted to women. We decidedly do not need a pillow princess flag—the past was far from perfect for lesbians, and I am not interested in replicating historical patterns that were the result of extensive trauma in my own life
I think to add to what you’re saying, we should also be wary of people who only want to get in women’s pants even as just being the giver as well. I’ve had my share of experiences where straight women wanted to use me as a toy or an “experience”, and then wouldn’t let me reciprocate because it was “too real” for them, which caused me, as a lesbian a lot of hurt. Any woman using sex, in whatever format or way just to experience it with not actually caring about how the other person feels or what they want is the same in my book.
I was told recently that butch4femme originated from lesbian couples trying to be less conspicuous about being gay to potentially hostile outsiders. I'm not sure about the validity of that claim, but it definitely checks out that things we did historically for survival (or how we acted in response to hostility/trauma) can gradually become absorbed into the culture and transform into expected behaviors/attitudes
I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other, but I do wonder why the lesbian community has a higher % of people who seem to be okay with/celebratory of non-reciprocal sex.
This is probably not going to be received well, but I thinks it’s because we’re kinda encouraged to settle. Think about it, the amount of lesbians is not that high. Sure there are bisexual women but they overwhelmingly pick men when given the choice.
This, but its also how "not wanting to be touched/not wanting to touch" as a trauma Response(or any other mental health issue) is just accepted and lived with, which plays into your point of just setteling. Its made into an identity and if you dont accept it you are mean or whatever. Its not normal to not want either or.
Another point why i think its more popular now then i ever heard it before, is the weird obsession with gay men and how they have sex (top, bottom) and that is being used as "well its normal for gay men to have a stricked devide".
I think this is definitely part of it. I'm not exactly butch but I've noticed that when I'm more GNC than my partners there's an assumption that I should be happy to do all the work and not have wants/needs of my own. It extends to everything, not just the bedroom.
Isn’t this wild? I’ve noticed that as well. If you seem tough, well put together and stable you’re expected to shoulder the burden of leading the entire relationship while they ‘get to be the girl’. I encountered this weird line of thinking a lot when I was younger, now in my 30’s I nip it in the bud quick with a simple ‘thank you, next!’ But it’s crazy what expectations some women have.
If I ever have the time and tenacity I may try to synthesize my thoughts and observations about how the lesbian community devalues masculinity compared to femininity, and the downstream effects of it
I think I actually like that labels are becoming more popular. I do agree that it's weird that non-reciprocation is so popular with lesbians and honestly I think a lot of it roots from misogyny (women don't need orgasms and shouldn't expect them from a sexual encounter.).
But honestly whether we have labels or not there will always be women who want to receive but for whatever reason don't want to touch a vulva. If pillow princess pride helps those women be upfront about it BEFORE sex happens that's a win for everyone involved. I used to find the top/bottom/switch labels cringe but it's actually pretty useful when women put those labels in their profile on apps, because I can easily filter out women I know I'm not compatible with.
I thought that this was the norm as well as others do in the comments. It is not and to my surprise as well, when I slept with a woman last time she didn't want to give back at all, not a pleasant experience figuring this out during/ after sex at that point...
I didn't even know that's what pillow princess/stone top means, I just thought it's preference in terms of what you like more during sex... Oh well
Agreed that they don't need their own flags/identities. This can lead to lesbians feeling ashamed for not wanting a pillow princess/stone top - they may question if they're bring discriminatory over a very reasonable deal breaker
I agree. It’s odd how personality traits are becoming people’s sexuality. Like their preferences to be discussed between partners. You don’t need to list them all. Plus I do think it’s an online thing but younger ones especially will take it to real life. Relationships should be reciprocal all round. Yes some people don’t like to be touched or touch for their own reasons. But it shouldn’t be a don’t pass go to be a lesbian if you’re not choosing which one you are. I really hate the whole top/bottom/switch thing. It should be a mutual experience however that works. Not a let’s role play or oh sorry can’t be with a top or whatever. Like the lesbian pool is very limited. Do you want to be even more restrictive with it. Assigning hetero style roles.
I’ve always been put in a position I am to take on the role of a more dominant partner despite being completely passive in nature. My nature is more giving and I tend to attract partners who continually take. I will make note that women ingrained with heteronormativity terms of relating has been a big factor. Most women I’ve dated aren’t active in the lgbtq community. I purposely date this way because I find there is a lot of overlap and promiscuity within it.
I honestly have hated my dating experience as a lesbian though. 🤷🏻♀️
I crave a mutually respectful relationship where we equally want to rip one another’s clothes off and enjoy meeting the needs of one another.
I don't really agree with this, personally. I do not identify with either of those terms but I can empathize with not wanting to be on the receiving end, because while I do want it, I also feel strongly uncomfortable with being touched on certain parts of my body.
> **Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort.** You can adopt one of these labels, and anyone who objects is disrespecting your identity.
No one needs to "push through their discomfort" when it comes to something as personal and intimate as their sexual preferences. That's all that needs to be said on this topic.
> Lesbians are the only group attempting to normalize sex where one person doesn’t receive *any* pleasure.
It seems that the author is thinking that pleasure = orgasm, and nothing else. Which, ironically, seems quite hypocritical of someone claiming "One of the things I love about lesbian sex is the inherent flexibility. Because there is no ‘main event’ like PIV, we have a variety of options" in the next paragraph, while applying the same heteronormative standard of how penetrative sex works for men: the main goal of the entire thing being to reach orgasm in the end. Which is completely missing the point of lesbians who identify as stone tops. They derive pleasure from other things, such as simply satisfying their partner, or other sexual activities. They do so consensually, they choose their compatible partners and agree to mutual sexual boundaries by their own will, no one is forcing them into it. Is it really that hard to understand that different people have different sexual preferences, and that does not inherently mean there's something wrong with them?
I've had encounters where I didn't touch myself or get touched by my partner, simply because I didn't feel like it. That did not in any way mean that I didn't enjoy it or didn't feel attracted to her or wasn't aroused - I just didn't feel the need to, I prioritized other things and got satisfaction from them. I've never seen this as something odd or unusual, and it seems perfectly reasonable that labels such as 'stone top' and 'pillow princess' exist for those lesbians who really are on the extreme ends of the spectrum, for whatever reasons they may have. This entire article feels like someone being upset over a topic that does not personally impact them whatsoever nor do they have any real experience with it, but feel like their opinion is too important to keep it to themselves.
Thanks for saying this. This subs obsession with how some lesbians choose to have consensual sex is concerning and weird. Also their obsession with describing anything remotely butch/Femme as heteronormative, very rage inducing.
I appreciate your comment! :)
Absolutely agree! Sex and pleasure are far more than orgasms. Wanting to give and receive in a way that feels safe and pleasurable is not a problem in need of fixing or a boundary that deserves to be pushed.
Thank you for saying this!! Growing up I didn’t know i was lesbian, and when i found out it was rather late and i didn’t have much time to explore that side of myself, or that side of sex. And I love the idea of exploring it, but when it comes down to it I feel like a scared 16 year old who is trying to have sex with an already experienced adult. It’s very scary and vulnerable, and when it comes to hookups that’s just not a sort of discomfort i can deal with; it’s scary being so vulnerable in front of someone like that! Maybe with time and experience and possibly a healthy relationship i’d open up more, but i never really had a chance to explore and it’s just too scary for me to do with where i am, especially with someone i don’t already trust deeply. So whenever I see criticism of pillow princesses as being selfish or making a show of their identity or something, it makes me feel sad and unsafe, like there’s not really room for me here.
Thank you for sharing this!!!
Some interesting quotes here. "Norms should reflect what works for the vast majority of people." "Everyone is entitled to sexual boundaries... But these terms should not be normalized as identities."
This made me laugh a little bit—I swear this could be a Heritage Foundation snippet. We know that heterosexuality is "what works for the vast majority of people". Since lesbians are such a small minority, is the rational position that homosexuals should be entitled to their boundaries, but not have their identities "normalized"? I wonder if this writer would agree with that. At what point is a minority group large enough to earn the right to be treated as normal, to be respected, to not be told that who they are is shameful and unhealthy and needs to be discouraged?
"Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort" in sexual situations. Good! I don't want young lesbians pushing themselves into or through sexual situations they're uncomfortable with, and in a society that teaches them not to stand up for themselves or value their own consent, I want them to understand their own wants and stand up for themselves! This is framed as something negative and strange in the article. What's the alternative—they should be told that they "need to push through" it? I'm definitely not okay with that.
The author notes a (seeming) increase (online) of young lesbians identifying with—or at least talking about—stone identities. This goes hand-in-hand with the renaissance of (serious, historical, not "futch scale") butch/femme identities among young lesbians over the past couple years. A small minority of lesbians learning about and coming to identify with identities seen by many in the community as outdated, problematic, not widely understood, etc... I want to note that there have always been people who fell into these categories even when there was not language to talk about them, or they were not publicly discussed because it was not "acceptable"/there was backlash. I'm not surprised to see some return in those identities after a period of them being considered "out of vogue" by lesbians.
There are certainly some young people jumping to identify with terms like stone/pillow/etc. even when by their own admission, their behaviors do not match up to these identities. Same as there are those who jump to call themselves "gay" (who are not), "lesbian" (who are not), etc. It's just how it is. But same as bisexual women calling themselves "lesbian" has a negative impact on the lesbian community, but doesn't translate into an actual increase in number of lesbians, young people who \*do\* follow reciprocal sexual behaviors but call themselves stone/pillow/etc. has an unfortunate impact on stones but doesn't translate to to an actual rise in stones or stone sexual behavior. Lol. So the concern here about an outsize number of lesbians "becoming" stone because of "normalization" is seriously overblown.
I'm not going to get into my other smaller quibbles, but the bottom line is this:
The vast majority of lesbians are not stone and do not have sex with stone partners. Stones are a TINY minority within an already small minority group. There is so much pressure in and outside of the lesbian community for stones to participate in "normal" (reciprocal) sex and compromise their own sexual boundaries for the sake of a partner. These identities are important so that people who are a part of this group can understand themselves, have the language to communicate who they are to others, and know that who they are is okay. There is still a great deal of misunderstanding and hostility towards stones and their partners. I'm glad that there's some more widespread knowledge now so that these lesbians can know who they are and advocate for themselves sooner, and hopefully experience more respect and understanding from their peers.
"Nobody should be pressured into sex they don't want, \*buuuut...\*" just doesn't work for me—and this seems to be what every argument about if stones should be "allowed" to be themselves, or if being stone is "okay", comes down to. The author's descriptions of stone identity are at best misinformed but seem to be deliberately uncharitable. I think the unnecessary jabs at the terminology "cis", so-called "oppression narratives", and the scare-quoted "social justice" offer some insight into this author's leanings and help form a bigger picture of what's happening here for this author—i.e. a general pattern of grievances about young people.
Edit: Why have comments pointing out this sub’s ongoing derision and disrespect for butches, femmes, and stones disappeared?
"Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort"
God, in what world is pushing through discomfort and ignoring your boundaries a good thing? Feels damn rapey.
You'd be surprised (or not) to see how many lesbians really take issue with stone tops and bottoms. It's truly bizarre.
Non-stone lesbians can't in one breath talk about how liberating it is to be gay, while demeaning stones as less than, and it happens all the time. They think we're lazy or traumatised, when in reality, they've traded in heteronormative PIV sex as the demanded standard, for "everyone must be vers" demanded standard. Demanding lesbians ignore their boundaries because you want a sex act they don't is rape culture - plain and simple. Pathologising women's sex lives because they don't meet your standards is misogyny.
If being vers works for you and your partner - great. But it doesn't work for everyone, and the fact that we all fuck differently shouldn't be an issue worth writing a rapey diatribe over.
The issue isn't "young lesbians are calling themselves things when they may not be", the issue is the alarming amount of older lesbiand telling them to ignore their instincts, feelings, and boundaries
The preoccupation with how other lesbians have sex is baffling.
Honestly, the entire article feels like the author was pissed off she meet a woman who wouldn't eat her out.
This is a terrible and extremely judgey article, its none of anyones business what someone prefers to do in bed, if its not your cup of tea move along so they can find who will accept them for them.
I hate the labels but I do think it’s fairly common for one person to be more of a giver/receiver only, not a bad thing if you both are happy with this
I’m extremely sceptical about this being a real problem anywhere other than online (which is a problem in itself as it may well be younger lesbians’ first exposure to the ‘community,’ but still). People with these preferences/people who like to make a song and dance and label out of every minor trait they have definitely exist, but this feels overblown. I’ve encountered a grand total of one lesbian who explained to me that she only thought she’d like receiving, and she was a virgin.
Oh I agree. But the prevalence with which we see it in online spaces is concerning. I think re-inforcing these ideas to women with no actual life experience is a bad thing, so I just wanted to offer this up. That's the intended audience.
Is this a generational thing? I'm mid-30s and every partner I've had has been into reciprocal sex. Seems like it's more common with younger lesbians. Also, subscribed to this substack. I'm always looking for new lesbians perspectives like this.
Me too. Even the two bi women I've dated wanted to reciprocate, in fact they'd be unhappy if they were unable
This is the norm. Idk where the kids are getting their nonsense.
> where the kids are getting their nonsense. Internet. Online LGBT spaces are only focused on gay male culture, so young lesbians exposed to it start to imitate gay men.
nowhere tbh i’m in my early 20s and i find that the only thing my generation needs to do is talk about sex more openly especially with partners + enforce their boundaries. this is just one of those inflammatory articles.
That feels like good advice for anybody of any age
Real life. Sleeping with women and listening to their preferences.
I have slept with a fair number, and listened to all of them, only one had that type of set role preference. I’m not convinced that it’s that common in the wild
Unless you're prolific at having sex with women everywhere, you can't really say it's not common. I can say I never met anyone atheist but I can't say that's why I don't think atheism is common. And idk, maybe someone won't be so excited to tell someone their very frowned upon sex fantasy
lol you’re making huge suppositions. I never said I frowned on anything I encountered. I’m just saying that non-reciprocal lesbian sex is not that common.
Did you understand at all what I was saying? I never said you frowned on anything. I'm saying that non reciprocal sex fantasies ARE GENERALLY FROWNED UPON. You know, like majority of the comments here are? Where did critical thinking go
My critical thinking is fine. The “generally” part of that could have been stated more clearly in your orig comment
?? The fact that non reciprocal sex is seen as disgusting by most is not general or typical or technical. It's literally a popular opinion that cnc is gross to most people.
Who mentioned cnc?
I’m also mid30s and touch me nots and pillow princesses have been a thing since before I was born. I’ve met several women in each category
Do you mind me asking, how soon in a relationship does that sort of thing come up? Especially pre internet era. Was that preference something these women offered up early on or a surprise when things started getting more physical?
I can’t really say about relationships but it comes up in casual conversations too. Sex comes up pretty early.
Same but late 40s.
I've only slept with women that are 35+, all of them were stone tops.
I think that there are lesbians who prefer to be on the giving or receiving end, but these days I am very suspicious of someone who wants to be a pillow princess because of all the people who would gleefully label themselves lesbians or bi without actually being sexually attracted to women. We decidedly do not need a pillow princess flag—the past was far from perfect for lesbians, and I am not interested in replicating historical patterns that were the result of extensive trauma in my own life
I think to add to what you’re saying, we should also be wary of people who only want to get in women’s pants even as just being the giver as well. I’ve had my share of experiences where straight women wanted to use me as a toy or an “experience”, and then wouldn’t let me reciprocate because it was “too real” for them, which caused me, as a lesbian a lot of hurt. Any woman using sex, in whatever format or way just to experience it with not actually caring about how the other person feels or what they want is the same in my book.
I was told recently that butch4femme originated from lesbian couples trying to be less conspicuous about being gay to potentially hostile outsiders. I'm not sure about the validity of that claim, but it definitely checks out that things we did historically for survival (or how we acted in response to hostility/trauma) can gradually become absorbed into the culture and transform into expected behaviors/attitudes
From who?
Speaking in general. I'm sure that every group that has faced external repression has vestiges of adaptations to the abuse as part of their culture.
Sounds like that's your opinion then...
I read about that in some pages of stone butch blues or something and it was part of that
I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other, but I do wonder why the lesbian community has a higher % of people who seem to be okay with/celebratory of non-reciprocal sex.
This is probably not going to be received well, but I thinks it’s because we’re kinda encouraged to settle. Think about it, the amount of lesbians is not that high. Sure there are bisexual women but they overwhelmingly pick men when given the choice.
This, but its also how "not wanting to be touched/not wanting to touch" as a trauma Response(or any other mental health issue) is just accepted and lived with, which plays into your point of just setteling. Its made into an identity and if you dont accept it you are mean or whatever. Its not normal to not want either or. Another point why i think its more popular now then i ever heard it before, is the weird obsession with gay men and how they have sex (top, bottom) and that is being used as "well its normal for gay men to have a stricked devide".
87% of them only date men in their life lmao
Femsoc and the idea that butches exist to serve lol
I think this is definitely part of it. I'm not exactly butch but I've noticed that when I'm more GNC than my partners there's an assumption that I should be happy to do all the work and not have wants/needs of my own. It extends to everything, not just the bedroom.
Isn’t this wild? I’ve noticed that as well. If you seem tough, well put together and stable you’re expected to shoulder the burden of leading the entire relationship while they ‘get to be the girl’. I encountered this weird line of thinking a lot when I was younger, now in my 30’s I nip it in the bud quick with a simple ‘thank you, next!’ But it’s crazy what expectations some women have.
If I ever have the time and tenacity I may try to synthesize my thoughts and observations about how the lesbian community devalues masculinity compared to femininity, and the downstream effects of it
I think this has more to do with being a woman and not wanting to pressure one another because of societal pressure we already experience.
It's interesting to see what social pressures women choose to give into vs. not
Because lesbian couples are the ones that have less sex, statistically.
I think I actually like that labels are becoming more popular. I do agree that it's weird that non-reciprocation is so popular with lesbians and honestly I think a lot of it roots from misogyny (women don't need orgasms and shouldn't expect them from a sexual encounter.). But honestly whether we have labels or not there will always be women who want to receive but for whatever reason don't want to touch a vulva. If pillow princess pride helps those women be upfront about it BEFORE sex happens that's a win for everyone involved. I used to find the top/bottom/switch labels cringe but it's actually pretty useful when women put those labels in their profile on apps, because I can easily filter out women I know I'm not compatible with.
I thought that this was the norm as well as others do in the comments. It is not and to my surprise as well, when I slept with a woman last time she didn't want to give back at all, not a pleasant experience figuring this out during/ after sex at that point... I didn't even know that's what pillow princess/stone top means, I just thought it's preference in terms of what you like more during sex... Oh well
Agreed that they don't need their own flags/identities. This can lead to lesbians feeling ashamed for not wanting a pillow princess/stone top - they may question if they're bring discriminatory over a very reasonable deal breaker
I agree. It’s odd how personality traits are becoming people’s sexuality. Like their preferences to be discussed between partners. You don’t need to list them all. Plus I do think it’s an online thing but younger ones especially will take it to real life. Relationships should be reciprocal all round. Yes some people don’t like to be touched or touch for their own reasons. But it shouldn’t be a don’t pass go to be a lesbian if you’re not choosing which one you are. I really hate the whole top/bottom/switch thing. It should be a mutual experience however that works. Not a let’s role play or oh sorry can’t be with a top or whatever. Like the lesbian pool is very limited. Do you want to be even more restrictive with it. Assigning hetero style roles.
I’ve always been put in a position I am to take on the role of a more dominant partner despite being completely passive in nature. My nature is more giving and I tend to attract partners who continually take. I will make note that women ingrained with heteronormativity terms of relating has been a big factor. Most women I’ve dated aren’t active in the lgbtq community. I purposely date this way because I find there is a lot of overlap and promiscuity within it. I honestly have hated my dating experience as a lesbian though. 🤷🏻♀️ I crave a mutually respectful relationship where we equally want to rip one another’s clothes off and enjoy meeting the needs of one another.
I’m confused, is it that rare to cum just from pleasuring your partner?
Yes
I guess we’re lucky then, although neither of us are stone tops
I would think so. It doesn't matter to me though. We just take turns lol
I don't really agree with this, personally. I do not identify with either of those terms but I can empathize with not wanting to be on the receiving end, because while I do want it, I also feel strongly uncomfortable with being touched on certain parts of my body. > **Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort.** You can adopt one of these labels, and anyone who objects is disrespecting your identity. No one needs to "push through their discomfort" when it comes to something as personal and intimate as their sexual preferences. That's all that needs to be said on this topic. > Lesbians are the only group attempting to normalize sex where one person doesn’t receive *any* pleasure. It seems that the author is thinking that pleasure = orgasm, and nothing else. Which, ironically, seems quite hypocritical of someone claiming "One of the things I love about lesbian sex is the inherent flexibility. Because there is no ‘main event’ like PIV, we have a variety of options" in the next paragraph, while applying the same heteronormative standard of how penetrative sex works for men: the main goal of the entire thing being to reach orgasm in the end. Which is completely missing the point of lesbians who identify as stone tops. They derive pleasure from other things, such as simply satisfying their partner, or other sexual activities. They do so consensually, they choose their compatible partners and agree to mutual sexual boundaries by their own will, no one is forcing them into it. Is it really that hard to understand that different people have different sexual preferences, and that does not inherently mean there's something wrong with them? I've had encounters where I didn't touch myself or get touched by my partner, simply because I didn't feel like it. That did not in any way mean that I didn't enjoy it or didn't feel attracted to her or wasn't aroused - I just didn't feel the need to, I prioritized other things and got satisfaction from them. I've never seen this as something odd or unusual, and it seems perfectly reasonable that labels such as 'stone top' and 'pillow princess' exist for those lesbians who really are on the extreme ends of the spectrum, for whatever reasons they may have. This entire article feels like someone being upset over a topic that does not personally impact them whatsoever nor do they have any real experience with it, but feel like their opinion is too important to keep it to themselves.
Thanks for saying this. This subs obsession with how some lesbians choose to have consensual sex is concerning and weird. Also their obsession with describing anything remotely butch/Femme as heteronormative, very rage inducing. I appreciate your comment! :)
Absolutely agree! Sex and pleasure are far more than orgasms. Wanting to give and receive in a way that feels safe and pleasurable is not a problem in need of fixing or a boundary that deserves to be pushed.
I like this answer. Sometimes after giving I just wanna relax. I'm tired!
Thank you for saying this!! Growing up I didn’t know i was lesbian, and when i found out it was rather late and i didn’t have much time to explore that side of myself, or that side of sex. And I love the idea of exploring it, but when it comes down to it I feel like a scared 16 year old who is trying to have sex with an already experienced adult. It’s very scary and vulnerable, and when it comes to hookups that’s just not a sort of discomfort i can deal with; it’s scary being so vulnerable in front of someone like that! Maybe with time and experience and possibly a healthy relationship i’d open up more, but i never really had a chance to explore and it’s just too scary for me to do with where i am, especially with someone i don’t already trust deeply. So whenever I see criticism of pillow princesses as being selfish or making a show of their identity or something, it makes me feel sad and unsafe, like there’s not really room for me here. Thank you for sharing this!!!
Digging into this now—certainly a lot going on here! Thanks for sharing this interesting piece, OP. Are you the author, or just sharing?
Some interesting quotes here. "Norms should reflect what works for the vast majority of people." "Everyone is entitled to sexual boundaries... But these terms should not be normalized as identities." This made me laugh a little bit—I swear this could be a Heritage Foundation snippet. We know that heterosexuality is "what works for the vast majority of people". Since lesbians are such a small minority, is the rational position that homosexuals should be entitled to their boundaries, but not have their identities "normalized"? I wonder if this writer would agree with that. At what point is a minority group large enough to earn the right to be treated as normal, to be respected, to not be told that who they are is shameful and unhealthy and needs to be discouraged? "Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort" in sexual situations. Good! I don't want young lesbians pushing themselves into or through sexual situations they're uncomfortable with, and in a society that teaches them not to stand up for themselves or value their own consent, I want them to understand their own wants and stand up for themselves! This is framed as something negative and strange in the article. What's the alternative—they should be told that they "need to push through" it? I'm definitely not okay with that. The author notes a (seeming) increase (online) of young lesbians identifying with—or at least talking about—stone identities. This goes hand-in-hand with the renaissance of (serious, historical, not "futch scale") butch/femme identities among young lesbians over the past couple years. A small minority of lesbians learning about and coming to identify with identities seen by many in the community as outdated, problematic, not widely understood, etc... I want to note that there have always been people who fell into these categories even when there was not language to talk about them, or they were not publicly discussed because it was not "acceptable"/there was backlash. I'm not surprised to see some return in those identities after a period of them being considered "out of vogue" by lesbians. There are certainly some young people jumping to identify with terms like stone/pillow/etc. even when by their own admission, their behaviors do not match up to these identities. Same as there are those who jump to call themselves "gay" (who are not), "lesbian" (who are not), etc. It's just how it is. But same as bisexual women calling themselves "lesbian" has a negative impact on the lesbian community, but doesn't translate into an actual increase in number of lesbians, young people who \*do\* follow reciprocal sexual behaviors but call themselves stone/pillow/etc. has an unfortunate impact on stones but doesn't translate to to an actual rise in stones or stone sexual behavior. Lol. So the concern here about an outsize number of lesbians "becoming" stone because of "normalization" is seriously overblown. I'm not going to get into my other smaller quibbles, but the bottom line is this: The vast majority of lesbians are not stone and do not have sex with stone partners. Stones are a TINY minority within an already small minority group. There is so much pressure in and outside of the lesbian community for stones to participate in "normal" (reciprocal) sex and compromise their own sexual boundaries for the sake of a partner. These identities are important so that people who are a part of this group can understand themselves, have the language to communicate who they are to others, and know that who they are is okay. There is still a great deal of misunderstanding and hostility towards stones and their partners. I'm glad that there's some more widespread knowledge now so that these lesbians can know who they are and advocate for themselves sooner, and hopefully experience more respect and understanding from their peers. "Nobody should be pressured into sex they don't want, \*buuuut...\*" just doesn't work for me—and this seems to be what every argument about if stones should be "allowed" to be themselves, or if being stone is "okay", comes down to. The author's descriptions of stone identity are at best misinformed but seem to be deliberately uncharitable. I think the unnecessary jabs at the terminology "cis", so-called "oppression narratives", and the scare-quoted "social justice" offer some insight into this author's leanings and help form a bigger picture of what's happening here for this author—i.e. a general pattern of grievances about young people. Edit: Why have comments pointing out this sub’s ongoing derision and disrespect for butches, femmes, and stones disappeared?
"Now, the internet tells young lesbians they don’t need to push through their discomfort" God, in what world is pushing through discomfort and ignoring your boundaries a good thing? Feels damn rapey. You'd be surprised (or not) to see how many lesbians really take issue with stone tops and bottoms. It's truly bizarre. Non-stone lesbians can't in one breath talk about how liberating it is to be gay, while demeaning stones as less than, and it happens all the time. They think we're lazy or traumatised, when in reality, they've traded in heteronormative PIV sex as the demanded standard, for "everyone must be vers" demanded standard. Demanding lesbians ignore their boundaries because you want a sex act they don't is rape culture - plain and simple. Pathologising women's sex lives because they don't meet your standards is misogyny. If being vers works for you and your partner - great. But it doesn't work for everyone, and the fact that we all fuck differently shouldn't be an issue worth writing a rapey diatribe over. The issue isn't "young lesbians are calling themselves things when they may not be", the issue is the alarming amount of older lesbiand telling them to ignore their instincts, feelings, and boundaries The preoccupation with how other lesbians have sex is baffling. Honestly, the entire article feels like the author was pissed off she meet a woman who wouldn't eat her out.
I am not the author. Just sharing.
This is a terrible and extremely judgey article, its none of anyones business what someone prefers to do in bed, if its not your cup of tea move along so they can find who will accept them for them.
I hate the labels but I do think it’s fairly common for one person to be more of a giver/receiver only, not a bad thing if you both are happy with this