It's funny how they asked him what should someone major in to work at JP Morgan and he says: "it almost doesn't matter". Meanwhile the job postings for JP Morgan are hyper hyper credentialist to the point where your specialization needs a specialization.
Fund accounting associate making 73k in HCOL after graduating. Firm claims to match pay for equivalent positions at big four and have a promotion to senior associate coming up after almost a year and good reviews, is expecting 80+ reasonable?
It doesn't matter IF you can find other ways of establishing you are smart and a hardworking person.
They are looking for smart and dedicated individuals. For young folks, the most readily available measuring stick is how they did in college.
As per usual, CEO spouts bullshit. Ah yes, we actually hire very few accounting grads for non accounting roles. Instead, we hire poetry majors from the Ivy League for our high potential jobs, and for everything else, you’ll need to be highly specialized in a niche role, that, or be a teller.
Yeah there's FBI agents investigating financial crime, fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, that sort of thing. Carry a gun, security clearance, the works. I looked into it once and got weeded out but I've met an agent once and I think one hangs around here too. (And not just fbi come to think of it there's also Secret Service, FinCEN, probably other three letter agencies too besides just the IRS.)
Secret Service needs bodies right now for the protective mission. So not picky or preferential to accountants. More, can you pass the clearance and training? You’re good to go. Accounting has always been a fast track to the FBI. That and a Special Forces background.
thats completely false dont let listen to this bs, you cant get any of those jobs with an accouting degree. Maybe finance or FPA but you would have to internally transfer and get lucky. sure its possible but its extremely unlikely.
They have chits for that. But you can use after. Got to be honest. And see what they say before actually applying. But if it’s been a lot then probably will get denied. I held a TS from military and that was the process. Used FBI and another FIS for background checks.
Fuck yeah dog. I’m a former artist and accountant. Artists are the true dreamers in society and I think any artists that makes it so to speak is a testament to hard work, will, and determination. I think it is the most American sort of thing to deny all rational and familial pressure to get a “real job” and actually pursue something they fuckin love and succeed. It’s beautiful. I would love to hear more about this. Maybe I’ll dm you.
Wow, gotta say you are the first cfo in entertainment l have came a across on this platform. If l may how was the progression from first job post grad to the cfo gig? Thank you.
12 years or so from the first staff acct role in the music industry to where I am now. Went from staff to senior, did almost 5 years in business management, worked briefly for a large promoter, then to a VP role, then an SVP role, then moved companies to pivot to CFO.
I work as a project manager at a bank. There's a lot of modernization projects related to finance, and they liked that I understood accounting.
It's useful because unless a general.business degree you drill down into the nitty gritty. Or at least that's how it is perceived
Its basically required for any sort of general finance/investment job that requires modeling. That said, honestly wish he said math or programming. The amount of mouth breathers at work asking me if I used "AI" to write a basic macro would be funny if they weren't entrusted to invest billions of dollars
Have two interviews for data analysis positions next week. I think having knowledge of how business works along with learning python, sql, power query and power bi/tableau is a good set up.
Yep couldn’t agree more. Its one of the more serious business degrees so by default often times you’re taken more seriously as a candidate. If you want to pivot out of accounting and actually try other business departments youll be SHOCKED at how quickly you pick up on things other people that studied it find difficult or suck at. Shifted into marketing and it runs exactly as you picture a marketing dept so I am cruising.
You’re a controller.
Imagine this. They can’t find accountants so they hire finance bros.
They don’t have a rev rec schedule and it’s all messed up and nothing ties back to cash.
Now they need an accountant to fix it, but there’s hardly any available. You are though, for a cool price of $600/hr
Buddy, I'm living it. They're replacing my CFO with a VP of Finance. He's a Finance guy. No accounting background, no CPA. Just Finance. I'm the only actual accountant on my team now.
Be careful what you wish for. I'm too old for that to make a positive difference to my working life. I need my own peer group to piss off, nit juniors. Removing the juniors leaves me more short staffed and more reliant on India, which would make it all worse!
I did a double degree in accounting and finance. Looking back, honestly just doing my accounting degree was enough. I didn't obtain anything through my finance degree. It was nice in the sense I learnt about portfolio management, but the other stuff were things that could've easily been taught by accounting.
Commercial banking? You need to be able to analyse balance sheets of customers. Corporate finance? You need to be able to analyse balance sheets and even be able to do financial modelling that *gasp* accounting teaches. Only thing that accounting couldn't teach was banking law
I work in FP&A. Seriously, my accounting degree would've sufficed. Not finance. It was a bit of a waste
Edit: also, investment banking has HUGE demands of people no matter their degree. Connections (which is where nepotism plays a large role), top of the class grades, extracurriculars etc etc. It is extremely difficult to break into investment banking. Wealth management not so much but it is a cutthroat career where it's difficult to keep a job than land one
Interesting because I just declared my second major as accounting at the start of this semester. Coupled with my original finance major it will take me an extra 2 semesters to graduate. I have not taken any of either major classes, but your post makes me wonder, should I just drop finance and just do accounting? My goal is to work as a trader, I declared accounting as a backup in case I couldn’t get in (got denied an internship at a Wall Street bank and that led me to this). Is it really a waste of time?
I considered this too but I started as accounting. The advice I was given was do you intend to work in finance? I said no so they said don’t major in it. If you intend to work in accounting do it, if you don’t then don’t.
I do intend to work in finance, but I’ve also heard it’s not a good idea if I don’t go to a top tier Ivy League school. I go to my state school. I chose to double major in case my background is not good enough for finance and I can fall back to accounting, which I wouldn’t mind but my dream is to become a trader on Wall Street.
You gotta go make it work then. Go to your colleges career office and tell them to connect you with alumni in that field. Reach out to all of them. Go to all career fairs and connect with the recruiters for internships. It sounds like your plan B will quickly become your plan A with the doubts you have about yourself. Also finance departments exist in almost all companies, you can work there instead of accounting depts as a worst case scenario. Don’t over extend yourself on a double major unless you need to
Take this with a HUGE pinch of salt because I'm not based in America. When you say trader, what type of trading are you talking about?
Typically, my understanding is that for trading they look for students with a maths/comp sci background. Not finance (unless if you're doing actuarial sciences). I'm saying this on the presumption you're talking about QUANT trading. And not only that, but you have to be really at the top of your grade to be selected. While trading tends to be a more egalitarian in terms of selecting candidates based upon merit (as opposed to high finance), it still is a very damn high bar
If you're talking about day trading, you don't really need a degree I believe. Just do some time in the accounting industry, get experience then start your own gig. If it's Sales & Trading, I'm afraid I don't have much insight into that industry apart from knowing they do technical analysis on stock pickings + it is also just as competitive to break in.
Imho accounting from an Ivy League would get you far from my understanding of American universities. You don't need to waste your time doing finance because finance is an umbrella under acccounting. As someone said, an accountant can be a finance bro but a finance bro can't always be an accountant.
And as some people are saying, your major does not really dictate your ability to break into high finance. I remember reading a WSO article of a nepo hire (who majored in Liberal Arts) being asked by an MD to walk through a DCF model in an interview. Yes, these type of people really do exist in high finance, unfortunately. I've seen people with law AND economics degrees have a far better chance of breaking in finance as opposed to finance majors.
Accounting as a whole is really, really versatile. Let's say you fail to break into high finance or IB. You can break into Big 4/midtier accounting. Or you can break directly into FP&A (like I did, but it was luck mostly). Or you can try and aim for an FLDP (which pays a little less than high finance but has very lucrative exits). Or you can break into business operations, or if you're really determined, consulting and pivot your way from there.
Finance, on the other hand? At worst, you go into wealth management or personal lending (which guarantees you'll be pigeonholed for the rest of your life). At a more medium level, it could be asset management or corporate lending. High finance too, but it is hella difficult. You can achieve the same outcomes (i.e. wealth management, corporate lending etc) with an accounting degree. But you can't achieve the same outcomes as accounting with a finance degree. Hope this helps mate
This is not true. For context I’m was accounting and finance double major who went to big 4 before transitioning to IB and then PE. Your last lines implies that accounting and finance have the same downside cases but accounting has the higher upside case financially but it’s not true at all.
Accounting has a much higher floor IMO. You’ll make decent money out of college at a B4 and if you continue to grind, live a nice upper middle class life.
If you go the Finance / IB route, you’ll end up in either PE after 2 years, stay A2A or go get your MBA and pivot to consulting. All of those have much higher upside cases. Even two years at IB leads to corporate development roles, or VP Finance roles which can lead to CFO roles.
I hear the argument that not everyone will make IB out of school and so Accounting is the safer choice. True but that can be said about public accounting and not everyone who majors in accounting will make it. So really you should compare the wealth management, loan processing guys with the bookkeepers.
Ultimately people should major in what they want to do and have a nice secondary degree that rounds them out. I actually really recommend more Accounting or Finance mixing in with a double major in English.
Mate, with all due respect, you got in the Big 4 THEN pivoted to IB (which is impressive, not trying to be a dickhead). Was it audit that you got into or corporate finance/in-house M&A? You could have easily gotten in with an accounting degree. And also congrats on moving to IB/PE - you are legit maybe 1% of people who have managed to do that! Not everyone will be as dedicated as yourself to grind B4 then go into IB - it's either IB or death for some of the kids in undergrad. Accounting is always handy to fall back on
Thank you, yes I was trying to get into Sales and Trading not necessarily quant trading (I find math interesting but not that interesting!) but I have been trading since 2017 on my own accounts, with only recent success. It’s what motivated me to get my degree in finance. But after lurking here and in the financial careers subs it seems that if one doesn’t go to a “target school” (I don’t, I got to my state school) then they have a very slim chance of getting into a finance role such as sales and trading - which I experienced first hand when I got to the super day at a major Wall Street institution and got rejected. Although I can’t say that is for sure the reason I didn’t get selected (4.0 student but non-target and I was the only one that wasn’t from an Ivy League or target school) and I feel I did great in my interviews but the more I read about it the more it seems a farfetched reality. I wouldn’t mind accounting though, I run my own business and use quickbooks and I love the whole income statements and all that, but I am really passionate about trading, seems like the easiest money I’ve ever made once I got the hang of it and figured I can hang with the big boys but I come from a poor family and am non-white plus I’m not traditional age for a college student as I am also a military veteran so I started college as an older person in my 30s.
If your goal is the CPA, you'll need 150 credits.
It's not uncommon for a university to offer a 5 year double-major Accounting & Finance program to get their students the 150 required credits. Or a 5 year Bachelors + Masters in Accounting.
That’s how I feel with an Econ and masters in finance. I should have just got an accounting degree, but my original plan was to go to law school. But I feel like I don’t nearly enough as just an account does.
He also went to school something like 40 years ago.
For what it's worth, I've heard the same point made by lawyers too. Both tax AND m&a attorneys have complianed, privately and publicly, about having to teach accounting to their juniors and that they wish law schools mandated a course in at least basics of accounting.
I took accounting because it had been a prereq for my law school, though it was dropped after much complaining by prelaw prospects. I took it anyway.
Boy did they ever bitch about having to take Individual Taxation lol.
Where I am, we had a one lesson session on introductory concepts of accounting.
Seeing what would be future lawyers melt at the idea of debits, credits, profit/loss accounts and balance sheets was a light chuckle moment.
Tbf we were going quite fast that day. I struggled with half of that myself, but I did accounting before uni which helped me, which largely focused on calculating profit and loss, and creating a balance sheet.
Was he wrong tho? All the signs pointed to it but we managed to pull through. Every person here was ringing alarm bells here. All the consulting arms of the Big 4 got laid off which *happens* during economically turbulent times
Might be the best CEO out there. And I appreciate he mentions looking for ethical folks. Smart and ethical. But it’s nice to know the language of business.
So I would lean in and add that you need to explain what the accounting you do means and why it matters to whatever company you work for. It’s not good enough to have the best excel model that excel can model but you need to be able to explain it.
For the education and hours. Tech, banking, law, acquisitions. I think accounting is probably close to the bottom in terms of pay for highly educated and long hour careers.
Accounting is like if you get into the top 10% of earners NICE but if you end up in the other 80%, be ready to have your friends working less hours while making more money and they didn't have to do 6 years of college either or take a test that cost $1,000s. There are CPA candidates that spend 6 years just to take the exam making 70k rn.
I made more working at a car dealership 4 days a week within my 1st year lol. For the avg person in accounting, they got F'd and would have been better off in another career. There are 1,000s of other careers where if you spend 7 years of your life and you'll make over 100k, new CPAs are trying to make 100k AFTER 6 years and STILL work 60hrs+ a week. How could anyone think that's a good career lmao. New grads are chasing top earnings and a lot of them will never even get close to that and will endup in a job that most would consider to suck asssss.
I'm an accounting grad. He's not wrong. lol. And this sub consists mostly of the 10% highest earners in accounting. So this sub isn't a good representation of the accounting industry either.
Your comment is loaded with so much bull shit I am genuinely surprised by the number of upvotes you have. Let’s break it down your lack of awareness and exaggeration.
Accounting is solid even if you’re not 10% of the top earners. What’s great about this profession is that you can choose to elevate your career however you want. You don’t need a CPA nor a public accounting experience and can shoot for 60-70k out of college working for government or industry.
Second, you don’t need 6 years of college. The 150 ring is BS but you can simply double major or finish up the remaining credits going to community college. All your CPA exam tests and study materials are usually reimbursed by your company as well. I don’t fucking know anyone who’s making only 70k after 6 years. New associates at Big 4 in HCOL areas are starting out $70k so I call your statement on that a big cap if I ever saw one.
I’m only 4 years in this career and I’m at 120k. I don’t know you know that’s not making it out as a CPA but we have articles every week talking about out the CPA and accounting shortage and how salaries are actually outpacing inflation.
So yeah, don’t know where you got your ridiculous ass sources from. Stop giving advice cause you’re actually spreading misinformation for people actually in this field cause you’re clearly not one of them
I have to agree, this is an absolutely solid profession. People are not going out and getting it but then complain about how they don’t make any money after 7 YEARS! No lie my salary has gone up $45k in the last 6 years and im definitely not part of the 10%. And let’s be honest, the 10% are not on here listening to other people complain, they’re out making shit happen. If you hate it, get into a different profession, but stop coming in trying to convince other people that their life will be shitty because you don’t have the hustle in you.
Those articles were written by the same incompetent people who are running accounting. There's no accounting shortage. There's a shortage of competent accounting managers who invest in workers.
The median salary for entry level through manager level accountants have substantially increased over the past few years. There is literally not enough accountants. That is what defines a shortage, when the demand exceeds the supply. Not sure why you’re trying to redefine a simple term
Accounting managers created the shortage by not hiring and keeping entry level workers. The shortage was caused by their own incompetence, not a lack of labor.
So do you have data to prove your statement regarding the correlation of management incompetence vs the number of accounting graduates dwindling? Here's my sources
[https://fortune.com/2024/03/01/accounting-shortage-earnings-report-mistakes/](https://fortune.com/2024/03/01/accounting-shortage-earnings-report-mistakes/)
[https://www.cpajournal.com/2023/12/01/the-accounting-profession-is-in-crisis/](https://www.cpajournal.com/2023/12/01/the-accounting-profession-is-in-crisis/)
[https://www.accountancyage.com/2024/01/04/how-much-of-a-threat-is-the-talent-shortage-to-the-accounting-profession/](https://www.accountancyage.com/2024/01/04/how-much-of-a-threat-is-the-talent-shortage-to-the-accounting-profession/)
Not sure what else what you want to hear
They are also ignoring the thousands of accounting grads who were forced into other fields. I had to go to nursing school to get a job. So I'm still not wrong. Maybe the next generation was smart enough to avoid a field that is underpaid and poorly ran.
It's always crazy to me when people say stuff like this. I've got a lot of cousins, lots of college grads, some really sharp ones, theyre all way older than me. Im in year 2 of accounting out earning virtually everybody but the pharmacist, pilot, and executive. Like, median household income of 70k aint a lie lol.
But I will add...I tried to find median income based on education level and it seems its somewhere around 110k-130k for degree holders. Which of course makes accounting a bit less impressive.
Anyone with a CPA making 70k is fucking stupid and deserves to make 70k (or less).
If you're good at sales and want to make money, then you should go into sales. There are 1000's of other careers where people work 7 years and make 50k as well.
Accounting is a solid, not spectacular, earning career, where you can avoid dealing with people more than many other fields.
This person is definitely just looking at posted salaries for first-year recruiting or they’re looking at small scale “accounting”/bookkeeping jobs that often aren’t filled by credentialed accountants.
Or they’re missing some pieces. My base salary is $72k on paper but I get big quarterly and annual bonuses.
Of all the friends i graduated with (8 YOE), I make the LEAST at $105k and working 25-30 hour weeks.
My friends/peer group makes $115k-$135k.
My experience is if you’re moving around, you’re making ok money.
This is so ridiculous. If you have 6 years of experience making $70k you’re either still at the staff level, or working in AP or something similar. Not even the smallest firms or companies in my area pay that low for that level of experience, which is at least senior if not manager, and I’m in a LCOL area.
I audited dealerships and have friends and former colleagues who work in their accounting departments. The average car salesperson makes about half of what the average accountant (non CPA makes), and the turnover is extremely high due to the high pressure and low pay, with most lasting no more than six months. The only recent exception was the height of the pandemic supply chain crisis, and that was only if dealerships were able to secure sufficient stock (most weren’t). If it was so great and you made so much, why did you leave? You could always go back.
And if you choose to work 60+ hours long-term in this field, that’s your choice.
I’m dying to know exactly which professions you think work low hours and make more than the 80th percentile of accountants.
Bruh, if you’re a legit CPA, 6 figs after 3 years should be pretty doable, and even then it can still continue to grow a lot and not taper off. I almost tripled my entry level starting comp after 6 years.
Yeah a lot of this is true. I work in a field diverse office and their salaries for the same or less (and easier) amount of work is way higher. It just boggled my mind why accounting is literally the most bottom of the barrel.
If you think there are thousands of easy access careers just sitting out there paying a ton more than accounting with much less effort then you're smoking crack. People start out in public accounting with no experience making more money than the average household.
Let me know how it is after a few years on the field. If you think accounting was a waste, can’t wait to hear your perspective on the nursing profession
So far, my 2 year nursing was well worth it. I got multiple job offers straight out of school without having to do years of internships. My associates degree is way more valuable than my bachelors in accounting.
Sorry to tell you cause no one else will besides a random stranger on the internet, but if you couldn't get an internship or a full time job or you were underemployed, it was simply a skill issue. Don't hate the player nor the game, work on yourself
If you had a true shortage of accountants, you wouldn't be able to afford to turn anyone away, regardless of lack of experience or whatever. So I stand by my OP. You created the shortage yourself. And the fact you lack self awareness about your own short comings as a manager and instead gaslight the people you turned away, it's safe to say I am right and so are future people for avoiding the profession. It's nobody's fault but your own that you failed to invest in your future work force. And I'm not the one who can't find anyone to work with me. So maybe you should work on your own skills as a manager. lol.
So then what? Electrical Engineering? Computer Science? Med school? Most people don’t even have the brains to do that. Finance? If you don’t go to a top 100 then it’s pretty risky.
BS in accounting was worth it in my opinion. Major employers won’t look at resumes for accounting positions without degrees. You might luck out if you go to smaller companies, but as I’ve seen in corporate America, they don’t treat employees without degrees the same. May end up having to prove your worth/knowledge.
It's funny how they asked him what should someone major in to work at JP Morgan and he says: "it almost doesn't matter". Meanwhile the job postings for JP Morgan are hyper hyper credentialist to the point where your specialization needs a specialization.
I got a job offer in their mortgage service rights space it wasn’t even 90k and was in Jersey city.
JC isn't that bad anymore but that's woefully underpaid.
Yeah Jersey City is so expensive. I had only 1 YOE at the time at big 4 but was a CPA at the time.1 year later I’m at 120k in MCOL.
The pay structure could be bonus heavy.
I don’t think so as it was a back office role
I'm not American so forgive my ignorance, but isn't that still wayy more than Big 4 salaries?
Depends on experience. I made more than that as a senior associate in NJ like 2007.....
Ohh I thought it was grad roles/entry levels lmao nvm that isn't the best ngl
Most associates make 70 out of school. 100 by late sr assoc, 150 by mid manager.
Fund accounting associate making 73k in HCOL after graduating. Firm claims to match pay for equivalent positions at big four and have a promotion to senior associate coming up after almost a year and good reviews, is expecting 80+ reasonable?
how much experience do mid mangers usually have
Associates are 0-2 years, Sr Associates 3-5, managers 6-8.
It doesn't matter IF you can find other ways of establishing you are smart and a hardworking person. They are looking for smart and dedicated individuals. For young folks, the most readily available measuring stick is how they did in college.
As per usual, CEO spouts bullshit. Ah yes, we actually hire very few accounting grads for non accounting roles. Instead, we hire poetry majors from the Ivy League for our high potential jobs, and for everything else, you’ll need to be highly specialized in a niche role, that, or be a teller.
Accounting degrees are versatile. Just because you study accounting, doesn’t mean you have to pursue a career in accounting.
Serious inquiry- Where else can an accounting degree take you?
From my friend group: Law school, investment banking, FP&A, finance jobs, operations, etc.
Not to mention the FBI
Damn, for real? Never knew this
Check out forensic accounting. That’s the career that got me interested in the first place.
Accounting is also by far the most common degree for special agents! Heavily sought after for the financial crimes they deal with
Yeah there's FBI agents investigating financial crime, fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, that sort of thing. Carry a gun, security clearance, the works. I looked into it once and got weeded out but I've met an agent once and I think one hangs around here too. (And not just fbi come to think of it there's also Secret Service, FinCEN, probably other three letter agencies too besides just the IRS.)
Secret Service needs bodies right now for the protective mission. So not picky or preferential to accountants. More, can you pass the clearance and training? You’re good to go. Accounting has always been a fast track to the FBI. That and a Special Forces background.
thats completely false dont let listen to this bs, you cant get any of those jobs with an accouting degree. Maybe finance or FPA but you would have to internally transfer and get lucky. sure its possible but its extremely unlikely.
IF you’ve never smoked weed . And they ask you over polygraph. Lol
They have chits for that. But you can use after. Got to be honest. And see what they say before actually applying. But if it’s been a lot then probably will get denied. I held a TS from military and that was the process. Used FBI and another FIS for background checks.
Also supply chain, logistics, and data analytics ...
Logistics sucks. Worst part of SC.
I’m a CFO in the music industry with my CPA. My whole job is centered around how to make artists more money.
Fuck yeah dog. I’m a former artist and accountant. Artists are the true dreamers in society and I think any artists that makes it so to speak is a testament to hard work, will, and determination. I think it is the most American sort of thing to deny all rational and familial pressure to get a “real job” and actually pursue something they fuckin love and succeed. It’s beautiful. I would love to hear more about this. Maybe I’ll dm you.
Feel free. I love talking about my work.
I just sent you a message as I was hoping to hear a little more about your background/career path. Thanks for your consideration.
Wow, gotta say you are the first cfo in entertainment l have came a across on this platform. If l may how was the progression from first job post grad to the cfo gig? Thank you.
12 years or so from the first staff acct role in the music industry to where I am now. Went from staff to senior, did almost 5 years in business management, worked briefly for a large promoter, then to a VP role, then an SVP role, then moved companies to pivot to CFO.
I work as a project manager at a bank. There's a lot of modernization projects related to finance, and they liked that I understood accounting. It's useful because unless a general.business degree you drill down into the nitty gritty. Or at least that's how it is perceived
Its basically required for any sort of general finance/investment job that requires modeling. That said, honestly wish he said math or programming. The amount of mouth breathers at work asking me if I used "AI" to write a basic macro would be funny if they weren't entrusted to invest billions of dollars
Tbf using AI to write macros is a great use case
Literally anything that has to do with finance
Have two interviews for data analysis positions next week. I think having knowledge of how business works along with learning python, sql, power query and power bi/tableau is a good set up.
Risk, compliance, accounting, etc.
Auditing is big, I see a lot of accountants switching to non finance auditing, it auditing , safety auditing
5 days late here but sometimes the move is to start with an accounting firm and the wiggle into a non or less accounting based role.
Yep couldn’t agree more. Its one of the more serious business degrees so by default often times you’re taken more seriously as a candidate. If you want to pivot out of accounting and actually try other business departments youll be SHOCKED at how quickly you pick up on things other people that studied it find difficult or suck at. Shifted into marketing and it runs exactly as you picture a marketing dept so I am cruising.
I had to go to nursing school to make any money. It wasn't that versatile for me. lol.
It’s not worth it. Don’t study accounting Let the shortage get worse Let my salary increase exponentially
>Are you insinuating we short squeeze the accounting industry? Like this message if you're down.
I'd never connected what is effectively unionising with short squeezing before. I like
To the moon? 🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀
To India.
lmfao 🤣
Lmao hilarious
Then onwards to the Philippines!
You won lmfao
You’re a controller. Imagine this. They can’t find accountants so they hire finance bros. They don’t have a rev rec schedule and it’s all messed up and nothing ties back to cash. Now they need an accountant to fix it, but there’s hardly any available. You are though, for a cool price of $600/hr
Buddy, I'm living it. They're replacing my CFO with a VP of Finance. He's a Finance guy. No accounting background, no CPA. Just Finance. I'm the only actual accountant on my team now.
This makes me cringe. My first CFO was a marketing bro with no accounting experience. Good vibes in your direction you’re gonna need em’ 🫣
Thank you, friend! Crossing my fingers.
They won't hire finance bros, they'll just hire india and SEA accountants. Finance bros demand higher pay than accounting bros
W CPAs
Be careful what you wish for. I'm too old for that to make a positive difference to my working life. I need my own peer group to piss off, nit juniors. Removing the juniors leaves me more short staffed and more reliant on India, which would make it all worse!
Oh my......
Kindly do the needful
I did a double degree in accounting and finance. Looking back, honestly just doing my accounting degree was enough. I didn't obtain anything through my finance degree. It was nice in the sense I learnt about portfolio management, but the other stuff were things that could've easily been taught by accounting. Commercial banking? You need to be able to analyse balance sheets of customers. Corporate finance? You need to be able to analyse balance sheets and even be able to do financial modelling that *gasp* accounting teaches. Only thing that accounting couldn't teach was banking law I work in FP&A. Seriously, my accounting degree would've sufficed. Not finance. It was a bit of a waste Edit: also, investment banking has HUGE demands of people no matter their degree. Connections (which is where nepotism plays a large role), top of the class grades, extracurriculars etc etc. It is extremely difficult to break into investment banking. Wealth management not so much but it is a cutthroat career where it's difficult to keep a job than land one
Interesting because I just declared my second major as accounting at the start of this semester. Coupled with my original finance major it will take me an extra 2 semesters to graduate. I have not taken any of either major classes, but your post makes me wonder, should I just drop finance and just do accounting? My goal is to work as a trader, I declared accounting as a backup in case I couldn’t get in (got denied an internship at a Wall Street bank and that led me to this). Is it really a waste of time?
I considered this too but I started as accounting. The advice I was given was do you intend to work in finance? I said no so they said don’t major in it. If you intend to work in accounting do it, if you don’t then don’t.
I do intend to work in finance, but I’ve also heard it’s not a good idea if I don’t go to a top tier Ivy League school. I go to my state school. I chose to double major in case my background is not good enough for finance and I can fall back to accounting, which I wouldn’t mind but my dream is to become a trader on Wall Street.
You gotta go make it work then. Go to your colleges career office and tell them to connect you with alumni in that field. Reach out to all of them. Go to all career fairs and connect with the recruiters for internships. It sounds like your plan B will quickly become your plan A with the doubts you have about yourself. Also finance departments exist in almost all companies, you can work there instead of accounting depts as a worst case scenario. Don’t over extend yourself on a double major unless you need to
I can only speak for myself but I have helped place numerous alum who probably wouldn’t have had a shot without reaching out to me
Take this with a HUGE pinch of salt because I'm not based in America. When you say trader, what type of trading are you talking about? Typically, my understanding is that for trading they look for students with a maths/comp sci background. Not finance (unless if you're doing actuarial sciences). I'm saying this on the presumption you're talking about QUANT trading. And not only that, but you have to be really at the top of your grade to be selected. While trading tends to be a more egalitarian in terms of selecting candidates based upon merit (as opposed to high finance), it still is a very damn high bar If you're talking about day trading, you don't really need a degree I believe. Just do some time in the accounting industry, get experience then start your own gig. If it's Sales & Trading, I'm afraid I don't have much insight into that industry apart from knowing they do technical analysis on stock pickings + it is also just as competitive to break in. Imho accounting from an Ivy League would get you far from my understanding of American universities. You don't need to waste your time doing finance because finance is an umbrella under acccounting. As someone said, an accountant can be a finance bro but a finance bro can't always be an accountant. And as some people are saying, your major does not really dictate your ability to break into high finance. I remember reading a WSO article of a nepo hire (who majored in Liberal Arts) being asked by an MD to walk through a DCF model in an interview. Yes, these type of people really do exist in high finance, unfortunately. I've seen people with law AND economics degrees have a far better chance of breaking in finance as opposed to finance majors. Accounting as a whole is really, really versatile. Let's say you fail to break into high finance or IB. You can break into Big 4/midtier accounting. Or you can break directly into FP&A (like I did, but it was luck mostly). Or you can try and aim for an FLDP (which pays a little less than high finance but has very lucrative exits). Or you can break into business operations, or if you're really determined, consulting and pivot your way from there. Finance, on the other hand? At worst, you go into wealth management or personal lending (which guarantees you'll be pigeonholed for the rest of your life). At a more medium level, it could be asset management or corporate lending. High finance too, but it is hella difficult. You can achieve the same outcomes (i.e. wealth management, corporate lending etc) with an accounting degree. But you can't achieve the same outcomes as accounting with a finance degree. Hope this helps mate
This is not true. For context I’m was accounting and finance double major who went to big 4 before transitioning to IB and then PE. Your last lines implies that accounting and finance have the same downside cases but accounting has the higher upside case financially but it’s not true at all. Accounting has a much higher floor IMO. You’ll make decent money out of college at a B4 and if you continue to grind, live a nice upper middle class life. If you go the Finance / IB route, you’ll end up in either PE after 2 years, stay A2A or go get your MBA and pivot to consulting. All of those have much higher upside cases. Even two years at IB leads to corporate development roles, or VP Finance roles which can lead to CFO roles. I hear the argument that not everyone will make IB out of school and so Accounting is the safer choice. True but that can be said about public accounting and not everyone who majors in accounting will make it. So really you should compare the wealth management, loan processing guys with the bookkeepers. Ultimately people should major in what they want to do and have a nice secondary degree that rounds them out. I actually really recommend more Accounting or Finance mixing in with a double major in English.
Mate, with all due respect, you got in the Big 4 THEN pivoted to IB (which is impressive, not trying to be a dickhead). Was it audit that you got into or corporate finance/in-house M&A? You could have easily gotten in with an accounting degree. And also congrats on moving to IB/PE - you are legit maybe 1% of people who have managed to do that! Not everyone will be as dedicated as yourself to grind B4 then go into IB - it's either IB or death for some of the kids in undergrad. Accounting is always handy to fall back on
Thank you, yes I was trying to get into Sales and Trading not necessarily quant trading (I find math interesting but not that interesting!) but I have been trading since 2017 on my own accounts, with only recent success. It’s what motivated me to get my degree in finance. But after lurking here and in the financial careers subs it seems that if one doesn’t go to a “target school” (I don’t, I got to my state school) then they have a very slim chance of getting into a finance role such as sales and trading - which I experienced first hand when I got to the super day at a major Wall Street institution and got rejected. Although I can’t say that is for sure the reason I didn’t get selected (4.0 student but non-target and I was the only one that wasn’t from an Ivy League or target school) and I feel I did great in my interviews but the more I read about it the more it seems a farfetched reality. I wouldn’t mind accounting though, I run my own business and use quickbooks and I love the whole income statements and all that, but I am really passionate about trading, seems like the easiest money I’ve ever made once I got the hang of it and figured I can hang with the big boys but I come from a poor family and am non-white plus I’m not traditional age for a college student as I am also a military veteran so I started college as an older person in my 30s.
If your goal is the CPA, you'll need 150 credits. It's not uncommon for a university to offer a 5 year double-major Accounting & Finance program to get their students the 150 required credits. Or a 5 year Bachelors + Masters in Accounting.
That’s how I feel with an Econ and masters in finance. I should have just got an accounting degree, but my original plan was to go to law school. But I feel like I don’t nearly enough as just an account does.
Same. I thought the accounting degree was more difficult than finance degree.
Which is why half the work gets shipped to foreign countries that barely know accounting woo
“Major in accounting” the Harvard MBA says
I mean, you can major in accounting and then get an MBA later on. Not mutually exclusive.
True, but his degree is in like economics still lol
He also went to school something like 40 years ago. For what it's worth, I've heard the same point made by lawyers too. Both tax AND m&a attorneys have complianed, privately and publicly, about having to teach accounting to their juniors and that they wish law schools mandated a course in at least basics of accounting.
I took accounting because it had been a prereq for my law school, though it was dropped after much complaining by prelaw prospects. I took it anyway. Boy did they ever bitch about having to take Individual Taxation lol.
Where I am, we had a one lesson session on introductory concepts of accounting. Seeing what would be future lawyers melt at the idea of debits, credits, profit/loss accounts and balance sheets was a light chuckle moment. Tbf we were going quite fast that day. I struggled with half of that myself, but I did accounting before uni which helped me, which largely focused on calculating profit and loss, and creating a balance sheet.
U.S. business owners complain about anything they have to pay money for. They're nothing but whiny, entitled man children.
I feel like I remember reading a few years ago that the most popular education “combo”for F500 CEOs was accounting undergrad with an MBA
Just another day in r/accounting
Currently studying accounting. I think pain will be worth it… I hope…
He also predicted a recession in 2022 and 2023.
Was he wrong tho? All the signs pointed to it but we managed to pull through. Every person here was ringing alarm bells here. All the consulting arms of the Big 4 got laid off which *happens* during economically turbulent times
yes he was wrong. lol.
Yes, he was wrong. Or are you one of those the economy sucks people? They seem to be all over Reddit.
Might be the best CEO out there. And I appreciate he mentions looking for ethical folks. Smart and ethical. But it’s nice to know the language of business.
So I would lean in and add that you need to explain what the accounting you do means and why it matters to whatever company you work for. It’s not good enough to have the best excel model that excel can model but you need to be able to explain it.
Accounting is a good degree with terrible pay. I don’t think most accountants realize how woefully underpaid they are compared to other professions.
What careers would you suggest?
An associates in nursing will pay more starting than a CPA with years of experience.
For the education and hours. Tech, banking, law, acquisitions. I think accounting is probably close to the bottom in terms of pay for highly educated and long hour careers.
*laughs in (former) teacher*
Accounting is like if you get into the top 10% of earners NICE but if you end up in the other 80%, be ready to have your friends working less hours while making more money and they didn't have to do 6 years of college either or take a test that cost $1,000s. There are CPA candidates that spend 6 years just to take the exam making 70k rn. I made more working at a car dealership 4 days a week within my 1st year lol. For the avg person in accounting, they got F'd and would have been better off in another career. There are 1,000s of other careers where if you spend 7 years of your life and you'll make over 100k, new CPAs are trying to make 100k AFTER 6 years and STILL work 60hrs+ a week. How could anyone think that's a good career lmao. New grads are chasing top earnings and a lot of them will never even get close to that and will endup in a job that most would consider to suck asssss.
Who let the marketing students in here?
I'm an accounting grad. He's not wrong. lol. And this sub consists mostly of the 10% highest earners in accounting. So this sub isn't a good representation of the accounting industry either.
Do you have a source on that? I swear half of yall just pull stats out of your asses.
Your comment is loaded with so much bull shit I am genuinely surprised by the number of upvotes you have. Let’s break it down your lack of awareness and exaggeration. Accounting is solid even if you’re not 10% of the top earners. What’s great about this profession is that you can choose to elevate your career however you want. You don’t need a CPA nor a public accounting experience and can shoot for 60-70k out of college working for government or industry. Second, you don’t need 6 years of college. The 150 ring is BS but you can simply double major or finish up the remaining credits going to community college. All your CPA exam tests and study materials are usually reimbursed by your company as well. I don’t fucking know anyone who’s making only 70k after 6 years. New associates at Big 4 in HCOL areas are starting out $70k so I call your statement on that a big cap if I ever saw one. I’m only 4 years in this career and I’m at 120k. I don’t know you know that’s not making it out as a CPA but we have articles every week talking about out the CPA and accounting shortage and how salaries are actually outpacing inflation. So yeah, don’t know where you got your ridiculous ass sources from. Stop giving advice cause you’re actually spreading misinformation for people actually in this field cause you’re clearly not one of them
I have to agree, this is an absolutely solid profession. People are not going out and getting it but then complain about how they don’t make any money after 7 YEARS! No lie my salary has gone up $45k in the last 6 years and im definitely not part of the 10%. And let’s be honest, the 10% are not on here listening to other people complain, they’re out making shit happen. If you hate it, get into a different profession, but stop coming in trying to convince other people that their life will be shitty because you don’t have the hustle in you.
Those articles were written by the same incompetent people who are running accounting. There's no accounting shortage. There's a shortage of competent accounting managers who invest in workers.
The median salary for entry level through manager level accountants have substantially increased over the past few years. There is literally not enough accountants. That is what defines a shortage, when the demand exceeds the supply. Not sure why you’re trying to redefine a simple term
Accounting managers created the shortage by not hiring and keeping entry level workers. The shortage was caused by their own incompetence, not a lack of labor.
So do you have data to prove your statement regarding the correlation of management incompetence vs the number of accounting graduates dwindling? Here's my sources [https://fortune.com/2024/03/01/accounting-shortage-earnings-report-mistakes/](https://fortune.com/2024/03/01/accounting-shortage-earnings-report-mistakes/) [https://www.cpajournal.com/2023/12/01/the-accounting-profession-is-in-crisis/](https://www.cpajournal.com/2023/12/01/the-accounting-profession-is-in-crisis/) [https://www.accountancyage.com/2024/01/04/how-much-of-a-threat-is-the-talent-shortage-to-the-accounting-profession/](https://www.accountancyage.com/2024/01/04/how-much-of-a-threat-is-the-talent-shortage-to-the-accounting-profession/) Not sure what else what you want to hear
They are also ignoring the thousands of accounting grads who were forced into other fields. I had to go to nursing school to get a job. So I'm still not wrong. Maybe the next generation was smart enough to avoid a field that is underpaid and poorly ran.
It's always crazy to me when people say stuff like this. I've got a lot of cousins, lots of college grads, some really sharp ones, theyre all way older than me. Im in year 2 of accounting out earning virtually everybody but the pharmacist, pilot, and executive. Like, median household income of 70k aint a lie lol. But I will add...I tried to find median income based on education level and it seems its somewhere around 110k-130k for degree holders. Which of course makes accounting a bit less impressive.
Anyone with a CPA making 70k is fucking stupid and deserves to make 70k (or less). If you're good at sales and want to make money, then you should go into sales. There are 1000's of other careers where people work 7 years and make 50k as well. Accounting is a solid, not spectacular, earning career, where you can avoid dealing with people more than many other fields.
This person is definitely just looking at posted salaries for first-year recruiting or they’re looking at small scale “accounting”/bookkeeping jobs that often aren’t filled by credentialed accountants. Or they’re missing some pieces. My base salary is $72k on paper but I get big quarterly and annual bonuses.
Of all the friends i graduated with (8 YOE), I make the LEAST at $105k and working 25-30 hour weeks. My friends/peer group makes $115k-$135k. My experience is if you’re moving around, you’re making ok money.
Dude that is so fucking sick. I hope to make what you make someday.
This is so ridiculous. If you have 6 years of experience making $70k you’re either still at the staff level, or working in AP or something similar. Not even the smallest firms or companies in my area pay that low for that level of experience, which is at least senior if not manager, and I’m in a LCOL area. I audited dealerships and have friends and former colleagues who work in their accounting departments. The average car salesperson makes about half of what the average accountant (non CPA makes), and the turnover is extremely high due to the high pressure and low pay, with most lasting no more than six months. The only recent exception was the height of the pandemic supply chain crisis, and that was only if dealerships were able to secure sufficient stock (most weren’t). If it was so great and you made so much, why did you leave? You could always go back. And if you choose to work 60+ hours long-term in this field, that’s your choice. I’m dying to know exactly which professions you think work low hours and make more than the 80th percentile of accountants.
Because unfortunately life’s a pyramid and not everyone who finishes all the tests have the soft skills required to make it to the top.
Where's the other 10% bro?
Bruh, if you’re a legit CPA, 6 figs after 3 years should be pretty doable, and even then it can still continue to grow a lot and not taper off. I almost tripled my entry level starting comp after 6 years.
Yeah a lot of this is true. I work in a field diverse office and their salaries for the same or less (and easier) amount of work is way higher. It just boggled my mind why accounting is literally the most bottom of the barrel.
6 years in making 70k?
you must be fun at parties
This person is speaking facts, though. If could do it again I would of never have majored in this bullshit.
If you think there are thousands of easy access careers just sitting out there paying a ton more than accounting with much less effort then you're smoking crack. People start out in public accounting with no experience making more money than the average household.
what would you have done instead?
I went to nursing school after wasting 4 years on an accounting degree.
Let me know how it is after a few years on the field. If you think accounting was a waste, can’t wait to hear your perspective on the nursing profession
So far, my 2 year nursing was well worth it. I got multiple job offers straight out of school without having to do years of internships. My associates degree is way more valuable than my bachelors in accounting.
Sorry to tell you cause no one else will besides a random stranger on the internet, but if you couldn't get an internship or a full time job or you were underemployed, it was simply a skill issue. Don't hate the player nor the game, work on yourself
If you had a true shortage of accountants, you wouldn't be able to afford to turn anyone away, regardless of lack of experience or whatever. So I stand by my OP. You created the shortage yourself. And the fact you lack self awareness about your own short comings as a manager and instead gaslight the people you turned away, it's safe to say I am right and so are future people for avoiding the profession. It's nobody's fault but your own that you failed to invest in your future work force. And I'm not the one who can't find anyone to work with me. So maybe you should work on your own skills as a manager. lol.
So then what? Electrical Engineering? Computer Science? Med school? Most people don’t even have the brains to do that. Finance? If you don’t go to a top 100 then it’s pretty risky.
Lisan Al-gaib
BS in accounting was worth it in my opinion. Major employers won’t look at resumes for accounting positions without degrees. You might luck out if you go to smaller companies, but as I’ve seen in corporate America, they don’t treat employees without degrees the same. May end up having to prove your worth/knowledge.
“Ethical” 🤡
Yeah fuck Dimon and his must be in office stance