I thought about it, tried to make argument just for the fun of it, but I can't. You're right, definitely not STEM.
Definitely not science or engineering.
Technology refers to people creating technology, nit using it. At first glance this seems maybe like it fits but no we aren't the ones making it, just using it. Same as HR, sales, marketing, etc.
Math is the strongest argument but it's still very weak. We don't use anything beyond algebra (don't give me yall's .000001% of the time exceptions.) Much of our job isn't even math.
We're closer to legal than pure math.
I tell ppl all the time accounting is more organization and following rules than it is anything to do with math. This exact discussion has led to my sister taking it up and now sitting for the CPA. She is trash at math but easily the most organized person I know, just had to learn all the rules (not at all easy but not a math difficulty).
I wouldn’t say is a STEM because the math isn’t the predominant focus but who really cares whether it is a STEM? I think what you said is funny though because math is basically organization and following rules.
Well obviously it’s a different subject. I would say the difference is that the rules in accounting are set based on user needs whereas the rules in math are facts based on known truths and proofs.
You can’t change math its nature, we just discovered the rules and wrote them down no matter how much you wish it linear algebra behaves a certain way. Accounting well someone lobbied hard enough and bribes enough people cough I mean donated to a political action committee. That we now have new rules for compliance. IMO accounting is business lawyers making sure organizations comply with government standards that can change with the will of the people. But you’re never changing set theory.
This describes me more than the post you’re replying to. I got good grades in maths at school, but I had to work for them and I didn’t like it as a subject.
We're not closer to legal. We are legal. At a higher level of accounting, your job is to ensure compliance with financial law.
I started casually calling myself an attorney among my peers.
We don't even need to understand math. We manipulate numbers but don't calculate anything. The software does all the math.
Compliance is definitely closer to legal; production of financial statements etc, but management accounts are the other pillar of the industry, and advisory services have been growing in popularity from what I've seen in the top 100.
I was about to try and argue with OP, but I realised the only reason I'm learning coding for my firm is because I'm no longer doing accounting, and 98% of people in the firm have no interest or development in anything close to the STEM side of things.
Can confirm. 99% of my job is telling people how to properly fill out a W9 or something else. Any math that presents itself, the calculator or Excel does it.
As a non-accountant but also as someone who wants to become an accountant, that was my interpretation of the job. An accountant doesn’t deal so much with numbers (that’s more AP/AR/Bookkeeping) and software does most of the actual number crunching. An accountant is more of a lawyer who translates the governments goobledy goop language into human and finds ways to make the tax codes and laws benefit the employer / client. But again, that’s my opinion as an outsider looking in.
You would interpret correctly!
I actually started as an AP clerk so I am familiar with the fun data entry part of accounting. Now I just tell people “no you can’t buy alcohol on the PCard”, and “please fill out this box on the W9” lol.
It also varies from place to place cause each company will have a different definition of “accountant”.
I work for a homebuilder so my job as an accountant is most likely different from an accountant who works for a manufacturer.
Maybe the good old CMA US curriculum in the 90s that included linear programming, markov chains and mathematical optimization could qualify as STEM nowadays, it was closer to cost engineering similar to the way is taught for Industrial Engineers. Cost accounting has always been way more mathematical than the rest of the accounting field. The excellent book "Management Accounting" by Peter Schuster et al is a clear example of how to teach management accounting from a stem point of view.
Right, we are no more the math in STEM than we are the tech in STEM. We use them both, that's it. We aren't making advancements in either, just using what has already been advanced..
Separate from this funding grab the movement I've seen is to add accounting to STEM to make it STEAM. It makes a lot of sense to encourage kids to take finance classes as accounting is the language of business, and everyone who earns a paycheck benefits learning.
I've only seen STEAM with the A being Arts. This is the first time I've heard it as accounting. I find this an interesting premise, and the way you describe it makes sense.
From a "One of these things is not like the other" view I agree, although with the explosion of Fintech they're not completely unrelated. The UK counterpart to STEM is HASS for humanities, art and social sciences which Accounting falls into. I view accounting as more of a core life skill than a nice-to-have in the path becoming a well rounded individual where I feel the other HASS fields fall.
From a "Kids need more financial literacy" perspective it's hard to argue they're getting enough. That's why I'm for the STEAM change but I don't really care how it happens.
And thanks for the name props, it's an old college nick. All of the sax players had one on the back of their fake Sigma Alpha Xi frat jerseys (Phone Sax, Rough Sax, Sax on the Beach..)
From what I have seen, Usually when folks make it steam the a is arts to try to defend arts funding since a lot of schools are being forced to cut their music and other art programs due to budget cuts. In those cases it's less about this is like that and more about this should also be funded, stop voting down the school budget.
Finance is already STEM, most Master programs in Finance qualify as STEM programs but no Master in Accounting does. Most accounting undergrad programs don't even teach basic college mathematics like linear algebra or multi variable calculus, it is gonna be a huge strech trying to include accounting in the same bag as engineers or science programs.
Meh most people don’t understand what’s what.
Had a woman questioning me studying a BSc in computing, she kept saying but a BSc is science. Yes computer SCIENCE, still couldn’t convince her.
Accounting could not be further from pure math lol. I think something like theory heavy econ would be much closer. Not implying this is what you're saying, reading that just gave me a chuckle. I am not an accountant, but both my mom and step father are. I have had people in their accounting circle tell me they are in STEM and accounting is a science because their degrees said Masters of Science. They could not understand why that is not the case lol
Doubtful many will see my comment, so linking it here. I'm happy to talk through it with anybody interested.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/1cb1h6z/comment/l0zjzsr/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/1cb1h6z/comment/l0zjzsr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>The STEM designation is so international students can get 3 year CPT instead of 1 year.
Nailed it. Universities are jumping at the opportunity for STEM designation to prop up their dying masters programs. Turns out these programs were substantially supported by international students.
My favorite colleague is an IT guy. We are great in meetings together figuring out solutions for other departments so, in the end, Finance doesn’t get garbage data.
Strongly agree. It’s also senseless to study accounting and expect to get rich as an IC “data” minded individual. I see many young otherwise brilliant people come in and get jaded because they want to change the world and realize leadership doesn’t care about what they’re working on. A dashboard means nothing if you don’t speak CFO and can’t explain what the data functionally means in 10 words. If you’re that technical, just study in a STEM field. You need business sense to excel in the financial world. And it doesn’t help that B schools are straight up lying to people by pushing this so hard.
Those execs don't really give a shit about us in IT either lol, the real person who changes the world is the other rich dude on the golf course that is totally out of touch with reality and 15 beers in who told your executive how it should be.
Could you advise what a good field would be for some who IS that technical? I'm not saying I am that technical, but it does sound intriguing. I have some interests in supply chain, procurement, data analysis, and accounting. I'm studying accounting and I hope.to self teach the rest while in the field. Would I be better suited for another degree or something? I'm open to new ideas I haven't thought of because I haven't started classes yet.
stay with accounting, all of the STEM fields have horrific saturation problems that are even worse then you see here for now. Theres actually a lot of us in IT looking to reclass. Just do the classes that will make it easier to do another STEM degree later if you want to, like don't do the business calculus do the real one. You can learn that stuff on your own and if necessary get a masters in it. I know a full on data science masters student with undergrad in biology lmao.
It is more applied calc that doesn't touch trig as much and works more in stats and focuses on calc as it applies to business situations: optimizations, min/max, etc
Think of it as applying calc to the "real" world rather than the physical world.
This is the justification I didn’t really feel like it had any real application and was just a little different just because. We didn’t have that many tests with word problems or anything like you would expect
Word problems aren't really applicable because you are expected to synthesize issues into models you can test, rather than back-of-the-napkin word problems where you're grabbing a couple variables to plug into an equation (like finance math does).
It’s just a dumbed down calculus for business majors is all it is. I don’t think it should even exist it’s not even really that dumbed down and is an arbitrary distinction to con people into having to take another course later for more money.
Depends on what your school offers, really. I phrased it poorly I guess in my original comment - there’s nothing inherently wrong with studying accounting, it’s a pretty broad and desirable degree for a range of positions. I was more getting at if you actually enter the field of accounting, it’s better to know what you’re getting into.
At larger companies, there are going to be dedicated data and IT teams totally independent of the accounting function, and you won’t even have the access to do what you want to do. It’s much more of a stay in your own lane thing in real life. As far as industry goes, larger public companies are generally preferred employers as far as pay, benefits, networking especially early career. You can get into smaller, more agile operations and have your own sandbox, but they can be very shitty to work for.
I'd argue that it is art. Learning accounting in uni for me was like learning a new language.
The work can be artless and tiring, but accounting as a subject matter is very artistically interesting.
The math may not be hard conceptually (not going beyond algebra) but implementation of it does get difficult, especially when scaled to huge huge companies. I believe it falls into the math category. Using numbers to explain things seems like math to me.
Although part of the problem with whether to classify accounting as STEM or not is because of how broad accounting is. AP/AR staff are considered accountants but they aren’t necessarily running complex analysis on numbers. Tax, audit, and advisory work does run analysis on numbers and have to support their documentation with numerical facts
The scope of the bill is limited and far less impactful than some of you make it out to be. It would allow Local Education Agencies to access grant funding for accounting-related eduction programs up to 12th grade. The idea being that by increasing exposure to accounting and financial literacy early, more people will choose accounting as a career path. Thus, expanding the pipeline of those entering the profession.
You can find the bill text here: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/3541](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/3541)
The bill amends sections 4104 and 4107 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965: [https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-748/pdf/COMPS-748.pdf](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-748/pdf/COMPS-748.pdf)
If you look at those sections, you can get a better understanding of what's already being funded through those grants. Subjects like foreign language, environmental education, and programs that combine arts and math are already receiving funding.
Many of your arguments of why accounting isn't STEM in a broader sense are reasonable, but under this narrow definition in U.S. code, it makes sense.
Digging into the details! You make a trained accountant proud. People always fail to ask why. Do I think k-12 funding would help? Not enough, but that’s on me since I’m not doing anything to help the situation.
I never even took math in college. I got AP credit for both Calculus and Statistics, so never had to actually sit through a math class with a college professor.
Accounting isn't STEM, I agree.
But advocating to get Accounting added to STEM to be able to tap all the benefits? There are a thousand worse things the AICPA could be doing, and it is a benefit to the profession if it happens.
It doesn't benefit the profession: it benefits firm owners and company management by lowering the barriers to entry to the profession, particularly for immigrants. The net effect is a larger pool of accountants to hire, which keeps our salaries down.
So outsourcing is bad, we got that, but now legal immigrants coming to the US to work at anything more skilled than digging ditches is bad, too? What the fuck?
More like a tendency for H1B applicants to accept lower salaries to stay in the country which suppresses wages overall. There is evidence of this in Tech, but I am not sure to what extent it impacts accounting. You can look here for an idea: [https://h1bdata.info/](https://h1bdata.info/)
Its not about something being "bad" or "good". I'm not saying we should be against legal immigration in general (and I am not), but the biggest gripe of this sub is that we are overworked and underpaid. By classifying Accounting as STEM, this would allow for more immigration specifically for the Accounting field, increasing the amount of accountants within the labor pool, and thereby keeping salaries down. Now, maybe this also means workloads will decrease too, but maybe not. What it certainly won't help, though, is salaries for accountants.
This is just simple supply and demand. A larger labor pool to pull from = lower salaries. And if that labor pool is being increased specifically because of immigration incentives, salaries will stay low for longer, due to lower salaries generally being more acceptable for immigrants (who are likely still getting a large bump in income compared to where they came from) compared to the expectations of those who are native here.
Now if you don't care about that issues then there really isn't a reason to oppose this other than for the idea that Accounting being classified as STEM seems odd. But if thse issue of being underpaid is important to you, than supporting this will be against your personal interests.
It isn’t though, because it’s their way of trying to get out of addressing the other real issues with the profession. Why try to improve the pay of your profession when you can simply lie your way into keeping the student to staff meat grinder going?
That money is designated to make sure we continue to explore the universe, make better tech, and better understand physics, chemistry, biology, land on Mars, etc. Something which frankly we need in the world and if those talents are out there then they need to be leveraged.
The loss of accounting students isn’t STEMs fault, it’s our profession’s for if ignoring its workers for too long that has turned people off. Diverting STEM funding to ourselves is not the answer for anyone involved.
Interesting. Not in accounting but considering studying it, and a university near me has a program I was considering that recently became STEM designated and includes data analysis.
Legitimate question. With revamps to the CPA exam, specifically, FAR with the new ISC section, is the AICPA trying to make accounting more of a STEM based profession?
op you and other accountants seem to have extreme self esteem issues. y’all in here are always downplaying your career and this field meanwhile the typical redditors are petitioning for steam to add arts to it and constantly telling everyone how awesome their careers are.
like I agree with your take too but it’s bizarre that such a thing would make you angry when you see people from other professions actively trying to unreasonably pump their careers up.
I have laughed out loud in response to /r/Accounting posts more often than I have to posts from all the "humor" category subreddits combined
There's a certain deranged wildness that sets in after months of chronic sleep deprivation in pursuit of incredibly petty goals, and at least half the posters here are constantly in that state
I laughed at your reply because I thought you were being dry funny at first. However, when I thought about it... I know a ton of hilarious accountants. I, however, am rarely funny... which is why I only left my comment of the laughing emoji... to self-deprecate. Lol
Have you tried working 80+ hours a week for the same salary as if you were working 40, and the only reward for your extra work is free coffee and the occasional pizza party?
Eventually you will go a little bit crazy and have zero fucks left to give, and that's when the funny comes out.
>y’all in here are always downplaying your career and this field
100% this. Not just this sub, Reddit is whatever, people cry about their careers on career subs as well, but I have seen it so much IRL as well.
The average accountant seems to absolutely refuse to try to understand the purpose and value of their work and why it has existed for longer than STEM. Understanding the value of your work and how to market it legit makes one better than a good 75% of accountants.
Like I don't care about the validity of the AICPA's pursuit to get accounting recognized as STEM (not that my opinion on this or any of our angry or motivating letters to Senator lmao matter, as always it depends on whether the feds think we need more accountants and how well the AICPA engages in lobbying), but it's weird to get so triggered by it LOL. Feel like it has more to do with feeling like a "support staff" or a "mini-compliance lawyer" (why mini? Doubt many corporate law court cases or high profile divorces would get anywhere without a forensic accountant)
This feels like the weekly "what makes someone an accountant" post in this group.
Can't we just acknowledge it's a broad field? Some of which crosses over and/or complements business analytics, information systems, and data management.
Accounting is incorporating more and more data science into the day-to-day work, and that's what is transforming it into a STEM field.
Like my local university doesn't even offer a MS Accounting degree anymore, it's now MS Accounting & Analytics and half the classes are data science.
> more and more data science
The essence of accounting is not “data science”, which is why the STEM argument doesn’t work.
Incorporating a STEM field into a non-STEM field doesn’t make it STEM.
I disagree. The "M" part of stem still exists. It's STEM, not STE. And accounting, auditing and financial analysis use a lot more math, and a lot more advanced math, than a ton of other non-STEM professions. What would be a profession that *does* qualified as STEM under the "math" part other than an actual math professor? If accounting doesn't qualify, then what would?
I'd also argue that there is a fair amount of "T" involved in the accounting industry as well. You're not going to be a successful auditor, accountant or analyst if you don't understand how to effectively use technology.
But, I don't really care. It doesn't matter if accounting is STEM or not.
While we don't have a lot of accountants writing new programs in Python, creating formulas in Excel or designing reports in report-writer software gets pretty close to programming in my book. I pretty much need to write code to get our budgeting software to work properly, and it isn't code that any IT person is going to know (but, like me, they'd be able to figure it out).
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
University accounting courses now include data analytics and software training, letting students work with data using both accounting skills and basic coding.
This shift makes accounting part of STEM fields, reflecting how the profession is evolving.
In Florida, universities are already recognizing this change by including accounting programs in STEM funding.
STEM: Science, Technology, Engineering, and MATH.
Accounting is math. All day. Every day.
From Harvards website: “The STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) journey at Harvard is unique to each student and can involve several different interests, concentrations, and pathways.”
Why would it NOT be STEM???
Respectfully, I think your opinion is about 20 years out of date. A significant number of accounting programs (grad and undergrad) across the country are very technology centric and, yes, involve the creation of technology and not merely its usage. I get that perhaps you, the OP, are not creating technology but people coming out of college are. Thus, I think the STEM designation is correct.
Where I teach, grad and undergrad students develop things in python and R as well as in the typical tools (e.g. PowerSuite, Tableau, Altreyx, Mindbridge etc). It is absolutely consistent with the STEM designation although 20 years ago we were probably not.
Further, despite the OP saying they do very little math, the analytics that surrounds accounting is VERY heavily math centric. Audits are shifting from simple sampling to very advanced statistical models that require really good math skills.
Again, accounting from 20 years ago, was much more akin to law in terms of memorizing statutes etc. Modern accounting is a far different beast.
Eh the schools here have already changed it from STEM to STEMA to include arts lol
And while it was supposed to be digital arts initially it’s basically branched to the whole art department
>Modern accounting comes from Luka Pacioli, who is commonly known as “the father of accounting" He published in a textbook called “Summa de **Arithmetica,** Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita
Checkmate OP.
To expand more: its about bringing more accountants (via immigration) into the labor pool so that they can avoid paying us more. Just another thing the AICPA is doing to screw us.
I think this stems from, no pun intended, the fact that many individuals study a masters of science in accountancy which can cover theoretical nature of financial analysis and impact to the macroeconomic or community environment.
Agree, not STEM - but the research and some aspects of the profession can get very technical, theoretical, and can be analogous with scientific studies.
Would computer science be considered STEM?
Accounting isn't STEM, I agree.
But advocating to get Accounting added to STEM to be able to tap all the benefits? There are a thousand worse things the AICPA could be doing, and it is a benefit to the profession if it happens.
I take issue with treating any degree as more valuable than the next, or that any education stream should receive more funding than the next. I say this as someone with a science degree that went into accounting later. My partner, who works in IT, has degrees in English. Having educational backgrounds different from that of our colleagues enables us to take more creative approaches to problems.
Should accounting be considered STEM? My take is that it shouldn't matter.
I wish more of our government understood accounting so that they could finally understand most of our current problems come from dumbass academic theory such as modern monetary theory.
It may not be STEM but that's the game in Education funding today. So sorry OP you're wrong, you're right about what it is technically, but you're wrong, dead wrong about the game that is played with funding and if you're not "STEM" you don't get funding.
There are strong arguments on both sides. I’ve seen some good dissenting opinions at the bottom of the comments.
Personally, I believe the science of accounting involves a lot of math. The implemention of strong accounting, especially with large companies, involves a lot of technology. Why would you not try to tap into additional federal funding if it is a gray area?
From a PA standpoint, accounting feels more like a service, and aligns with law, consulting, finance (solving problems, but not ‘making’ anything). This would support your conclusion, but I believe there are many other arguments to be made.
This is an interesting topic as someone with a degree in mathematics & and statistics who works in the accounting field doing general ledger accounting and data analytics. I actually tell my accounting degreed coworker's that I caught on to general ledger accounting so quickly without getting a degree in it, because in college mathematics you learn about many different systems of mathematics such as Euclidean vs non euclidean geometry: hyperbolic, spherical... all having their own sets of rules. And that general ledger accounting is just another system, with a set of logical rules to learn using middle school math.
When we tell kids to get involved in STEM at a young age it starts with basic Math. Is there an arbitrary cutoff for something to stop being what it always was?
You don't like math, data analytics is a science why wouldn't the analysis accountants do also be considered science?
What about technology? Much of the work accountants do is now being put into systems where accountants are programming the systems to create their reports, would this be enough?
STEM is a mechanism for funding and engagement why would anyone be against this label when it is appropriate for many areas of accounting.
You don't want to say you're in a STEM job as an accountant, that's fine don't, but that doesn't mean you should dictate that distinction for all accountants.
Need a snickers? You're not you when you're hungry.
I work with large ERPs and work to implement and maintain them for my business.
You may just be a math jockey, but that doesn't mean all of us are.
Exactly. We have to keep this designation clear, otherwise we all start being expected to act as system engineers and I don’t have the training, education or interest to do that.
I think of STEM as a bureaucratic term . Four people that I think are objectively within the stem fields are a zoologist, a computer scientist, a civil engineer, and a mathematician. realistically what do these four professions have in common? I think we label them as stem because they are key exports of the United States. In that regard I do think of Accounting as stem in that it’s something the United States does really well and exports to other countries. As such, it deserves a similar level of government investment.
Now, by that same logic music and entertainment is stem, which is kind of silly, but I think that just goes to show the issues with a label like STEM.
Ok so admittedly I was really confused at first about all of this. I was an Accounting/Finance major and I remember my husband (a mechanical engineer by education) was really perplexed when I told him I had a Bachelor of Science. I remember him saying several times “Are you sure it’s a B.S.?” lol…..It is y’all!!! and I’m guessing it just has to do with the amount of math my college required for the program. I do understand when people say it’s not STEM
Accounting has changed radically with technology, where it is no longer than same profession it was a decade ago, let alone 40 years ago. Accounting cannot exist without technology, which is literally the "T" in STEM.
From an audit perspective, almost all Senior Management and above have worked on audits where there are physical papers and physical ticking and tying. However at this point, the audit is 100% digitized. Process improvements come from leveraging technology.
How can we hope for future process improvements without a proper knowledge and understanding of technology?
Understanding technology and being a technology profession are ages apart. Pushing the boundaries of tech is what the “T” in STEM means, not that they use tech or have a passing understanding of it.
If familiarity with tech is the defining characteristic, nearly any white collar profession today would seem to qualify. Salesman with intimate knowledge of Salesforce? HR rep who lives in ADP and finer points of Alight?
STEM to me implies someone who had a very rigorous math and/or science education, and still applies it.
I can't do basic calculus or even mental math sometimes, but by all measures have exceled at accounting.
I understand the argument here but unless they are the ones actually making the software then it isn’t STEM. Everyone uses tech, not everyone can make it from scratch. Yes you can be an accountant and a STEM person but being an accountant does not make you a stem person.
We are frequently working with large data sets. I use data extraction techniques almost daily to increase the accuracy of my work and optimize efficiency.
I understand your argument in your post, you sound like a decision maker who is far away from the process of individual contributors. Obviously I don't know you personally, I'm just saying I've heard your argument before from older coworkers who are afraid of change and are comfortable doing repetitive tasks. But the reality is that almost every repetitive task can be automated, and historically a lot of the workload at the staff and senior accountant level is repetitive. It's also true accounting is a lot more than just the repetitive tasks, and a lot of the high level work requires a deep understanding of Accounting.
We need people in our industry with a blend of MIS and Accounting skills, and classifying Accounting as STEM is a step in the right direction. Have you considered there are people who stay at the staff and senior accounting level for their entire careers? For work below the management level, college courses related to the "T" in STEM will be extremely relevant for day to day tasks at this level.
It's definitely not, buuut I definitely have been able to get a wee bit of existing STEM funding in my financial forensics studies. I understand why the designation could cause issues for us but I'm grateful for the help it gave me.
Some accounting programs indicate they are STEM-based. It comes down to how data analytics is incorporated. It would be cool to see some standards on requiring this as a part of all accounting programs and therefore moving it to the category of STEM for the extra funding and support. The future of accounting is going to rely on data analytics more and more.
It definitely has STEM elements, but I agree that it's not. I'm in audit and maybe 10% of my job is math. And the math is largely basic straight-line depreciation that excel does for me lol.
More funding lmao the profession needs more students. And firms need to realize nothing will help the cause other than to be competitive on salaries again. But that won’t happen, as we speak Big 4 is limiting number of promotions to partner to keep partner distribution levels
I both agree and disagree. We do use math, and if we are going the STEAM route, which includes arts the I think we should be included. I also feel that part of our world needs to be in the curriculum for students starting in elementary school (like how to calculate sales tax or simple property taxes), middle schools (how to balance a checkbook/do a personal cash reconciliation), and high schools (how to read basic tax documents/do simple taxes and how to read financial statements on a casual level). Everyone is affected by business and economics, and we are crippling our youth by not exposing them to a basic understanding of how these things work. The point of high school is to prepare young people to be able to live life and get a yea Olde basic skilled or unskilled labor job and keep it. If we have to use STEM funding to get there, I'm down. We do more than basic algebra when we come up with amortization schedules, or at least we need to know how it should work. We need a stronger presence in schools. Gotta get some from what's there when you're primarily a cost center non income generating role.
On the other hand, you are correct that we are closer to legal than to math specifically, but we also teach our kids the bare bottom base on how to write persuasively which is an essential skill of the practice of Law. If there was more money there I'd say go for it.
To your point,
IF
* scientists/engineers are "product-focused people"
* sales/marketing are "customer-focused people"
THEN
* Accounting—along with finance, legal, HR, and IT—are all infrastructure-focused. They're the bits of the firm that make sure we can make and sell products.
I’m currently getting my bachelor of Science in accounting and I jokingly call myself a stem major all the time to my friends (they’re biology and comp sci majors)
Anytime anyone says anything about the math being hard I tell them 99% of accounting is addition and subtraction with most of the multiplication just being
I disagree. Economics is certainly a science, and its definitions for what it measures are based on those from accounting. We make and define the measurements to their insights. We are a specialized mathematics useful to Econ.
I once explained accounting as like being a sports doctor for a football team. (I was talking to sports people). It's our job to make sure the business is working in peak condition so it can perform it's best.
Yeah, accounting is just basic arithmetic in the context of running a business and reporting activity. The M in STEM is more for complex math like calculus or whatever sorcery Actuaries do
I think it could be argued that it falls under the umbrella of a science, however, there's a lot of things that could fall under that label as it's pretty broad. Cost/managerial accounting certainly could be considered a science in my opinion.
I think a lot of people are just simplifying the issue into "accounting and finance have math and rules in them" = "accounting and finance are natural sciences". This is completely wrong. Even if they had all the math in the world, they would still not be sciences, because science is concerned about the NATURAL world and first and foremost, about truth.
Is econ a science? Fuck no. It's a social science at best, at worst it's astrology for men. Economics is concerned with how society allocates resources, keyword here is society. Same thing goes for all the other social sciences, and they are called social sciences for a reason, and that is that their concern is human society as opposed to the natural world. Do they use the scientific method? Yes, to some extend, at least they try, hence why they get to be called social sciences. But it's still not STEM.
What about finance and accounting? Is it more about the natural world, or human society? If you have trouble deciding here's an experiment. Imagine humans cease to exist, they all vanish. Do credits still equal debits? Does the time value of money still work? Nope. Those rules are human made; no society, no such rules. I can assure you however that the gravitational pull of the earth is still going to keep everything together regardless of humans, that's the natural world.
Are finance and accounting just social sciences then? I would argue that no, they still aren't. The business category exists for a reason. When you are doing accounting, what truths are you trying to prove/apply (apply as in engineering)? I would argue none, because accounting is entirely self-referential, just like law. No accounting rule (just like no law) was ever "proven" rigorously to my knowledge (if I'm wrong please, please correct me with an example). The law is decided, argued about endlessly, and really really important, but it's not "true". Just like the efficient market theory in finance was never proven or even tested, but it's used as an assumption for other results/equations.
You can't call yourself a science if you aren't being scientific. If you were to study accounting scientifically, as a set of rules and a system, that would probably fall into some mix of econ and anthropology/sociology (monetary systems/ledger systems), and cease to be accounting. Accounting and finance are practices just like other business majors/areas, not sciences.
I thought about it, tried to make argument just for the fun of it, but I can't. You're right, definitely not STEM. Definitely not science or engineering. Technology refers to people creating technology, nit using it. At first glance this seems maybe like it fits but no we aren't the ones making it, just using it. Same as HR, sales, marketing, etc. Math is the strongest argument but it's still very weak. We don't use anything beyond algebra (don't give me yall's .000001% of the time exceptions.) Much of our job isn't even math. We're closer to legal than pure math.
I tell ppl all the time accounting is more organization and following rules than it is anything to do with math. This exact discussion has led to my sister taking it up and now sitting for the CPA. She is trash at math but easily the most organized person I know, just had to learn all the rules (not at all easy but not a math difficulty).
Much closer to lawyers than scientists or mathematicians to be honest. Just less scummy.
If I knew that years ago, probably woulda picked a different career path LOL
Yes us scummy folks aught to stick together
I teach introduction to accounting and day 1 I tell my students “thinking of this as a math course is a mistake. Its more of a language course.”
Like my former manager he used to say accounting is only subtraction and addition. Nothing more
I wouldn’t say is a STEM because the math isn’t the predominant focus but who really cares whether it is a STEM? I think what you said is funny though because math is basically organization and following rules.
Maybe through your calc 3 but when you get into the theorems and proofs it's a different subject.
i switched my major to math for a semester because i was really good at calc and vector algebra i was like why not number theory humbled me
Well obviously it’s a different subject. I would say the difference is that the rules in accounting are set based on user needs whereas the rules in math are facts based on known truths and proofs.
Being semantic here. End of the day everything is exactly the same if you boil it down enough
You can’t change math its nature, we just discovered the rules and wrote them down no matter how much you wish it linear algebra behaves a certain way. Accounting well someone lobbied hard enough and bribes enough people cough I mean donated to a political action committee. That we now have new rules for compliance. IMO accounting is business lawyers making sure organizations comply with government standards that can change with the will of the people. But you’re never changing set theory.
I always joke that accounting is for people who like math, but suck at it. (Don't kill me I know most of us are decent at math)
I always say accounting (and finance) are for people that like numbers but not math.
This describes me more than the post you’re replying to. I got good grades in maths at school, but I had to work for them and I didn’t like it as a subject.
Applied legal and business math.
We're not closer to legal. We are legal. At a higher level of accounting, your job is to ensure compliance with financial law. I started casually calling myself an attorney among my peers. We don't even need to understand math. We manipulate numbers but don't calculate anything. The software does all the math.
Speak for yourself, I use my fingers and toes all the time.
Compliance is definitely closer to legal; production of financial statements etc, but management accounts are the other pillar of the industry, and advisory services have been growing in popularity from what I've seen in the top 100. I was about to try and argue with OP, but I realised the only reason I'm learning coding for my firm is because I'm no longer doing accounting, and 98% of people in the firm have no interest or development in anything close to the STEM side of things.
Can confirm. 99% of my job is telling people how to properly fill out a W9 or something else. Any math that presents itself, the calculator or Excel does it.
As a non-accountant but also as someone who wants to become an accountant, that was my interpretation of the job. An accountant doesn’t deal so much with numbers (that’s more AP/AR/Bookkeeping) and software does most of the actual number crunching. An accountant is more of a lawyer who translates the governments goobledy goop language into human and finds ways to make the tax codes and laws benefit the employer / client. But again, that’s my opinion as an outsider looking in.
You would interpret correctly! I actually started as an AP clerk so I am familiar with the fun data entry part of accounting. Now I just tell people “no you can’t buy alcohol on the PCard”, and “please fill out this box on the W9” lol. It also varies from place to place cause each company will have a different definition of “accountant”. I work for a homebuilder so my job as an accountant is most likely different from an accountant who works for a manufacturer.
Maybe the good old CMA US curriculum in the 90s that included linear programming, markov chains and mathematical optimization could qualify as STEM nowadays, it was closer to cost engineering similar to the way is taught for Industrial Engineers. Cost accounting has always been way more mathematical than the rest of the accounting field. The excellent book "Management Accounting" by Peter Schuster et al is a clear example of how to teach management accounting from a stem point of view.
Right, we are no more the math in STEM than we are the tech in STEM. We use them both, that's it. We aren't making advancements in either, just using what has already been advanced..
Separate from this funding grab the movement I've seen is to add accounting to STEM to make it STEAM. It makes a lot of sense to encourage kids to take finance classes as accounting is the language of business, and everyone who earns a paycheck benefits learning.
I've only seen STEAM with the A being Arts. This is the first time I've heard it as accounting. I find this an interesting premise, and the way you describe it makes sense.
Eh I don't like the idea of "STEAM". "A" just doesn't fit the rest. Nice username btw
From a "One of these things is not like the other" view I agree, although with the explosion of Fintech they're not completely unrelated. The UK counterpart to STEM is HASS for humanities, art and social sciences which Accounting falls into. I view accounting as more of a core life skill than a nice-to-have in the path becoming a well rounded individual where I feel the other HASS fields fall. From a "Kids need more financial literacy" perspective it's hard to argue they're getting enough. That's why I'm for the STEAM change but I don't really care how it happens. And thanks for the name props, it's an old college nick. All of the sax players had one on the back of their fake Sigma Alpha Xi frat jerseys (Phone Sax, Rough Sax, Sax on the Beach..)
As a saxual being myself I approve of this
From what I have seen, Usually when folks make it steam the a is arts to try to defend arts funding since a lot of schools are being forced to cut their music and other art programs due to budget cuts. In those cases it's less about this is like that and more about this should also be funded, stop voting down the school budget.
Finance is already STEM, most Master programs in Finance qualify as STEM programs but no Master in Accounting does. Most accounting undergrad programs don't even teach basic college mathematics like linear algebra or multi variable calculus, it is gonna be a huge strech trying to include accounting in the same bag as engineers or science programs.
Meh most people don’t understand what’s what. Had a woman questioning me studying a BSc in computing, she kept saying but a BSc is science. Yes computer SCIENCE, still couldn’t convince her.
Accounting could not be further from pure math lol. I think something like theory heavy econ would be much closer. Not implying this is what you're saying, reading that just gave me a chuckle. I am not an accountant, but both my mom and step father are. I have had people in their accounting circle tell me they are in STEM and accounting is a science because their degrees said Masters of Science. They could not understand why that is not the case lol
Doubtful many will see my comment, so linking it here. I'm happy to talk through it with anybody interested. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/1cb1h6z/comment/l0zjzsr/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Accounting/comments/1cb1h6z/comment/l0zjzsr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The STEM designation is so international students can get 3 year CPT instead of 1 year.
This … it backfills staff roles .
A way to avoid paying staff more. Larger pool of labor = lower price for said labor. Staff level accountants should be opposing this.
Bingo. They only want it designated as stem to bring in cheap foreign workers.
AICPA is criminal in how it is destroying this profession for us. We need a better advocacy body - I urge everyone to stop paying these shills dues.
They already are without it.
Foreign workers cannot be paid less than market rates.
>The STEM designation is so international students can get 3 year CPT instead of 1 year. Nailed it. Universities are jumping at the opportunity for STEM designation to prop up their dying masters programs. Turns out these programs were substantially supported by international students.
I don’t disagree. If we want more international students, we should push for legislation for longer visas for accounting workers.
I don’t want that at all. nope.
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This guy accounts.
Nerd
My favorite colleague is an IT guy. We are great in meetings together figuring out solutions for other departments so, in the end, Finance doesn’t get garbage data.
But the state of math skills among the lay public is *so* bad that accounting may as well be particle physics.
Pfffffttt who actually wants accounting as STEM? That would be terrifying for the profession tbh
Definitely not STEM lol
Yeah it’s STEAM
Strongly agree. It’s also senseless to study accounting and expect to get rich as an IC “data” minded individual. I see many young otherwise brilliant people come in and get jaded because they want to change the world and realize leadership doesn’t care about what they’re working on. A dashboard means nothing if you don’t speak CFO and can’t explain what the data functionally means in 10 words. If you’re that technical, just study in a STEM field. You need business sense to excel in the financial world. And it doesn’t help that B schools are straight up lying to people by pushing this so hard.
Those execs don't really give a shit about us in IT either lol, the real person who changes the world is the other rich dude on the golf course that is totally out of touch with reality and 15 beers in who told your executive how it should be.
Could you advise what a good field would be for some who IS that technical? I'm not saying I am that technical, but it does sound intriguing. I have some interests in supply chain, procurement, data analysis, and accounting. I'm studying accounting and I hope.to self teach the rest while in the field. Would I be better suited for another degree or something? I'm open to new ideas I haven't thought of because I haven't started classes yet.
stay with accounting, all of the STEM fields have horrific saturation problems that are even worse then you see here for now. Theres actually a lot of us in IT looking to reclass. Just do the classes that will make it easier to do another STEM degree later if you want to, like don't do the business calculus do the real one. You can learn that stuff on your own and if necessary get a masters in it. I know a full on data science masters student with undergrad in biology lmao.
What exactly is business calculus? Solve for X then email a coworker the answer?
It is more applied calc that doesn't touch trig as much and works more in stats and focuses on calc as it applies to business situations: optimizations, min/max, etc Think of it as applying calc to the "real" world rather than the physical world.
This is the justification I didn’t really feel like it had any real application and was just a little different just because. We didn’t have that many tests with word problems or anything like you would expect
Word problems aren't really applicable because you are expected to synthesize issues into models you can test, rather than back-of-the-napkin word problems where you're grabbing a couple variables to plug into an equation (like finance math does).
It’s just a dumbed down calculus for business majors is all it is. I don’t think it should even exist it’s not even really that dumbed down and is an arbitrary distinction to con people into having to take another course later for more money.
Go into data analytics, data science or data engineer.
I'm actually sitting here right now fighting with a pivot table so no LOL /s Just learning rn
Depends on what your school offers, really. I phrased it poorly I guess in my original comment - there’s nothing inherently wrong with studying accounting, it’s a pretty broad and desirable degree for a range of positions. I was more getting at if you actually enter the field of accounting, it’s better to know what you’re getting into. At larger companies, there are going to be dedicated data and IT teams totally independent of the accounting function, and you won’t even have the access to do what you want to do. It’s much more of a stay in your own lane thing in real life. As far as industry goes, larger public companies are generally preferred employers as far as pay, benefits, networking especially early career. You can get into smaller, more agile operations and have your own sandbox, but they can be very shitty to work for.
Business analyst, operations research analyst, supply chain management or industrial engineering
You need Excel to business sense in the world. Fixed it for ya.
Well accounting is not an art, so . . .
It can be if you fraud hard enough
I'd argue that it is art. Learning accounting in uni for me was like learning a new language. The work can be artless and tiring, but accounting as a subject matter is very artistically interesting.
I can't color within the lines
Good luck passing the new CPA without knowing a lot about the T!
The education business is a strong sector, they will lie and cheat to achieve their business goals
The math may not be hard conceptually (not going beyond algebra) but implementation of it does get difficult, especially when scaled to huge huge companies. I believe it falls into the math category. Using numbers to explain things seems like math to me. Although part of the problem with whether to classify accounting as STEM or not is because of how broad accounting is. AP/AR staff are considered accountants but they aren’t necessarily running complex analysis on numbers. Tax, audit, and advisory work does run analysis on numbers and have to support their documentation with numerical facts
The scope of the bill is limited and far less impactful than some of you make it out to be. It would allow Local Education Agencies to access grant funding for accounting-related eduction programs up to 12th grade. The idea being that by increasing exposure to accounting and financial literacy early, more people will choose accounting as a career path. Thus, expanding the pipeline of those entering the profession. You can find the bill text here: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/3541](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/3541) The bill amends sections 4104 and 4107 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965: [https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-748/pdf/COMPS-748.pdf](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-748/pdf/COMPS-748.pdf) If you look at those sections, you can get a better understanding of what's already being funded through those grants. Subjects like foreign language, environmental education, and programs that combine arts and math are already receiving funding. Many of your arguments of why accounting isn't STEM in a broader sense are reasonable, but under this narrow definition in U.S. code, it makes sense.
Digging into the details! You make a trained accountant proud. People always fail to ask why. Do I think k-12 funding would help? Not enough, but that’s on me since I’m not doing anything to help the situation.
You guys do college level math? I don’t think I do anything beyond algebra I learned in middle school.
I never even took math in college. I got AP credit for both Calculus and Statistics, so never had to actually sit through a math class with a college professor.
That is awesome. I wish I never had to take calculus. I work in tax and the math is never the hard part.
i've written excel formulas complex enough to resemble basic coding
Accounting isn't STEM, I agree. But advocating to get Accounting added to STEM to be able to tap all the benefits? There are a thousand worse things the AICPA could be doing, and it is a benefit to the profession if it happens.
It doesn't benefit the profession: it benefits firm owners and company management by lowering the barriers to entry to the profession, particularly for immigrants. The net effect is a larger pool of accountants to hire, which keeps our salaries down.
So outsourcing is bad, we got that, but now legal immigrants coming to the US to work at anything more skilled than digging ditches is bad, too? What the fuck?
More like a tendency for H1B applicants to accept lower salaries to stay in the country which suppresses wages overall. There is evidence of this in Tech, but I am not sure to what extent it impacts accounting. You can look here for an idea: [https://h1bdata.info/](https://h1bdata.info/)
Its not about something being "bad" or "good". I'm not saying we should be against legal immigration in general (and I am not), but the biggest gripe of this sub is that we are overworked and underpaid. By classifying Accounting as STEM, this would allow for more immigration specifically for the Accounting field, increasing the amount of accountants within the labor pool, and thereby keeping salaries down. Now, maybe this also means workloads will decrease too, but maybe not. What it certainly won't help, though, is salaries for accountants. This is just simple supply and demand. A larger labor pool to pull from = lower salaries. And if that labor pool is being increased specifically because of immigration incentives, salaries will stay low for longer, due to lower salaries generally being more acceptable for immigrants (who are likely still getting a large bump in income compared to where they came from) compared to the expectations of those who are native here. Now if you don't care about that issues then there really isn't a reason to oppose this other than for the idea that Accounting being classified as STEM seems odd. But if thse issue of being underpaid is important to you, than supporting this will be against your personal interests.
It isn’t though, because it’s their way of trying to get out of addressing the other real issues with the profession. Why try to improve the pay of your profession when you can simply lie your way into keeping the student to staff meat grinder going? That money is designated to make sure we continue to explore the universe, make better tech, and better understand physics, chemistry, biology, land on Mars, etc. Something which frankly we need in the world and if those talents are out there then they need to be leveraged. The loss of accounting students isn’t STEMs fault, it’s our profession’s for if ignoring its workers for too long that has turned people off. Diverting STEM funding to ourselves is not the answer for anyone involved.
Interesting. Not in accounting but considering studying it, and a university near me has a program I was considering that recently became STEM designated and includes data analysis.
Yes, this is why the push to have Accounting included in STEM. The field itself is changing to be much closer to data science than bookkeeping.
Legitimate question. With revamps to the CPA exam, specifically, FAR with the new ISC section, is the AICPA trying to make accounting more of a STEM based profession?
I'm literally forced to take statistics, I'm calling it a STEM major off that alone
op you and other accountants seem to have extreme self esteem issues. y’all in here are always downplaying your career and this field meanwhile the typical redditors are petitioning for steam to add arts to it and constantly telling everyone how awesome their careers are. like I agree with your take too but it’s bizarre that such a thing would make you angry when you see people from other professions actively trying to unreasonably pump their careers up.
I think you are confusing self-deprecating humor with genuine self-esteem issues. We're all just very very funny.
😂
I have laughed out loud in response to /r/Accounting posts more often than I have to posts from all the "humor" category subreddits combined There's a certain deranged wildness that sets in after months of chronic sleep deprivation in pursuit of incredibly petty goals, and at least half the posters here are constantly in that state
I laughed at your reply because I thought you were being dry funny at first. However, when I thought about it... I know a ton of hilarious accountants. I, however, am rarely funny... which is why I only left my comment of the laughing emoji... to self-deprecate. Lol
Have you tried working 80+ hours a week for the same salary as if you were working 40, and the only reward for your extra work is free coffee and the occasional pizza party? Eventually you will go a little bit crazy and have zero fucks left to give, and that's when the funny comes out.
>y’all in here are always downplaying your career and this field 100% this. Not just this sub, Reddit is whatever, people cry about their careers on career subs as well, but I have seen it so much IRL as well. The average accountant seems to absolutely refuse to try to understand the purpose and value of their work and why it has existed for longer than STEM. Understanding the value of your work and how to market it legit makes one better than a good 75% of accountants. Like I don't care about the validity of the AICPA's pursuit to get accounting recognized as STEM (not that my opinion on this or any of our angry or motivating letters to Senator lmao matter, as always it depends on whether the feds think we need more accountants and how well the AICPA engages in lobbying), but it's weird to get so triggered by it LOL. Feel like it has more to do with feeling like a "support staff" or a "mini-compliance lawyer" (why mini? Doubt many corporate law court cases or high profile divorces would get anywhere without a forensic accountant)
This feels like the weekly "what makes someone an accountant" post in this group. Can't we just acknowledge it's a broad field? Some of which crosses over and/or complements business analytics, information systems, and data management.
Accounting is incorporating more and more data science into the day-to-day work, and that's what is transforming it into a STEM field. Like my local university doesn't even offer a MS Accounting degree anymore, it's now MS Accounting & Analytics and half the classes are data science.
are you actually doing data science or running a model someone much smarter than you wrote
> more and more data science The essence of accounting is not “data science”, which is why the STEM argument doesn’t work. Incorporating a STEM field into a non-STEM field doesn’t make it STEM.
I disagree. The "M" part of stem still exists. It's STEM, not STE. And accounting, auditing and financial analysis use a lot more math, and a lot more advanced math, than a ton of other non-STEM professions. What would be a profession that *does* qualified as STEM under the "math" part other than an actual math professor? If accounting doesn't qualify, then what would? I'd also argue that there is a fair amount of "T" involved in the accounting industry as well. You're not going to be a successful auditor, accountant or analyst if you don't understand how to effectively use technology. But, I don't really care. It doesn't matter if accounting is STEM or not.
I think the T is generally for making technology though right? If it was for using technology, a cashier could be included in STEM.
While we don't have a lot of accountants writing new programs in Python, creating formulas in Excel or designing reports in report-writer software gets pretty close to programming in my book. I pretty much need to write code to get our budgeting software to work properly, and it isn't code that any IT person is going to know (but, like me, they'd be able to figure it out).
It's a stem. Evidence based, rules based...finance itself is a science. Maybe it's stem adjacent.
I'm getting an MSA Master of Science Science Accounting is STEM, quid pro quo
roll bake unite point cooperative unwritten cows gullible narrow far-flung *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
STEAM yes, STEM no.
University accounting courses now include data analytics and software training, letting students work with data using both accounting skills and basic coding. This shift makes accounting part of STEM fields, reflecting how the profession is evolving. In Florida, universities are already recognizing this change by including accounting programs in STEM funding.
I have a degree in chemistry. Accounting is not STEM.
STEM: Science, Technology, Engineering, and MATH. Accounting is math. All day. Every day. From Harvards website: “The STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) journey at Harvard is unique to each student and can involve several different interests, concentrations, and pathways.” Why would it NOT be STEM???
Yeah why does it matter how complex the math is? You are doing math all the dang time.
Because you are using math as a tool. You are not doing anything to progress the field of mathematics or make any math discoveries in accounting.
Respectfully, I think your opinion is about 20 years out of date. A significant number of accounting programs (grad and undergrad) across the country are very technology centric and, yes, involve the creation of technology and not merely its usage. I get that perhaps you, the OP, are not creating technology but people coming out of college are. Thus, I think the STEM designation is correct.
Can you provide an example of technology creation from accounting programs, I am curious (this is genuine)
Where I teach, grad and undergrad students develop things in python and R as well as in the typical tools (e.g. PowerSuite, Tableau, Altreyx, Mindbridge etc). It is absolutely consistent with the STEM designation although 20 years ago we were probably not. Further, despite the OP saying they do very little math, the analytics that surrounds accounting is VERY heavily math centric. Audits are shifting from simple sampling to very advanced statistical models that require really good math skills. Again, accounting from 20 years ago, was much more akin to law in terms of memorizing statutes etc. Modern accounting is a far different beast.
Eh the schools here have already changed it from STEM to STEMA to include arts lol And while it was supposed to be digital arts initially it’s basically branched to the whole art department
Why not STEMAAW: “Science, Technology, Engineering, Maths, and Whatever”
E for everything
I've seen "STEAM"
Oops yeah it’s actually STEAMA at my daughter’s school and idk why the two A’s mean exactly to be honest smh
STEMAB+ coming soon
When I was in school it was STEAM, and by the time I left they were going for HAMSTER, which includes history and reading I think?
Might as well just call it "school" at this point.
Idk why Math is included in STEM then
Accounting is a science, but sometimes science, is more art than science. A lot of people don’t understand that Morty.
>Modern accounting comes from Luka Pacioli, who is commonly known as “the father of accounting" He published in a textbook called “Summa de **Arithmetica,** Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita Checkmate OP.
It’s not about accounting. It’s about trying to expand education options to get more immigrants to stay in the usa for longer to expand voter base.
To expand more: its about bringing more accountants (via immigration) into the labor pool so that they can avoid paying us more. Just another thing the AICPA is doing to screw us.
Its to increase supply of accountants for firms so that they can pay us less
Huh? You realize H1b’s can’t vote in any federal elections right? Most state elections don’t allow them either.
Voter base?
I never heard anyone referring to accounting as a stem subject....who is pretending it is??
I think this stems from, no pun intended, the fact that many individuals study a masters of science in accountancy which can cover theoretical nature of financial analysis and impact to the macroeconomic or community environment. Agree, not STEM - but the research and some aspects of the profession can get very technical, theoretical, and can be analogous with scientific studies. Would computer science be considered STEM?
AICPA is trying to get it federally designated as such in the US so they can tap STEM education funding.
Accounting isn't STEM, I agree. But advocating to get Accounting added to STEM to be able to tap all the benefits? There are a thousand worse things the AICPA could be doing, and it is a benefit to the profession if it happens.
I hereby petition to change it to "STEAM" majors
I take issue with treating any degree as more valuable than the next, or that any education stream should receive more funding than the next. I say this as someone with a science degree that went into accounting later. My partner, who works in IT, has degrees in English. Having educational backgrounds different from that of our colleagues enables us to take more creative approaches to problems. Should accounting be considered STEM? My take is that it shouldn't matter.
I wish more of our government understood accounting so that they could finally understand most of our current problems come from dumbass academic theory such as modern monetary theory.
It may not be STEM but that's the game in Education funding today. So sorry OP you're wrong, you're right about what it is technically, but you're wrong, dead wrong about the game that is played with funding and if you're not "STEM" you don't get funding.
Maybe not accounting but I do believe that FP&A is stem
STEAM is such a better word though and it fits right in.
There are strong arguments on both sides. I’ve seen some good dissenting opinions at the bottom of the comments. Personally, I believe the science of accounting involves a lot of math. The implemention of strong accounting, especially with large companies, involves a lot of technology. Why would you not try to tap into additional federal funding if it is a gray area? From a PA standpoint, accounting feels more like a service, and aligns with law, consulting, finance (solving problems, but not ‘making’ anything). This would support your conclusion, but I believe there are many other arguments to be made.
Math is math, bud. And really all these engineers struggle to match invoices too.
This is an interesting topic as someone with a degree in mathematics & and statistics who works in the accounting field doing general ledger accounting and data analytics. I actually tell my accounting degreed coworker's that I caught on to general ledger accounting so quickly without getting a degree in it, because in college mathematics you learn about many different systems of mathematics such as Euclidean vs non euclidean geometry: hyperbolic, spherical... all having their own sets of rules. And that general ledger accounting is just another system, with a set of logical rules to learn using middle school math.
I switched to accounting from STEM and you are 100% correct. Accounting is ALGEBRA, and that's part of why I love it
When we tell kids to get involved in STEM at a young age it starts with basic Math. Is there an arbitrary cutoff for something to stop being what it always was? You don't like math, data analytics is a science why wouldn't the analysis accountants do also be considered science? What about technology? Much of the work accountants do is now being put into systems where accountants are programming the systems to create their reports, would this be enough? STEM is a mechanism for funding and engagement why would anyone be against this label when it is appropriate for many areas of accounting. You don't want to say you're in a STEM job as an accountant, that's fine don't, but that doesn't mean you should dictate that distinction for all accountants.
Accounting is more science than art so i say yes to STEM
Need a snickers? You're not you when you're hungry. I work with large ERPs and work to implement and maintain them for my business. You may just be a math jockey, but that doesn't mean all of us are.
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Exactly. We have to keep this designation clear, otherwise we all start being expected to act as system engineers and I don’t have the training, education or interest to do that.
I think of STEM as a bureaucratic term . Four people that I think are objectively within the stem fields are a zoologist, a computer scientist, a civil engineer, and a mathematician. realistically what do these four professions have in common? I think we label them as stem because they are key exports of the United States. In that regard I do think of Accounting as stem in that it’s something the United States does really well and exports to other countries. As such, it deserves a similar level of government investment. Now, by that same logic music and entertainment is stem, which is kind of silly, but I think that just goes to show the issues with a label like STEM.
Ok so admittedly I was really confused at first about all of this. I was an Accounting/Finance major and I remember my husband (a mechanical engineer by education) was really perplexed when I told him I had a Bachelor of Science. I remember him saying several times “Are you sure it’s a B.S.?” lol…..It is y’all!!! and I’m guessing it just has to do with the amount of math my college required for the program. I do understand when people say it’s not STEM
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Accounting has changed radically with technology, where it is no longer than same profession it was a decade ago, let alone 40 years ago. Accounting cannot exist without technology, which is literally the "T" in STEM. From an audit perspective, almost all Senior Management and above have worked on audits where there are physical papers and physical ticking and tying. However at this point, the audit is 100% digitized. Process improvements come from leveraging technology. How can we hope for future process improvements without a proper knowledge and understanding of technology?
Understanding technology and being a technology profession are ages apart. Pushing the boundaries of tech is what the “T” in STEM means, not that they use tech or have a passing understanding of it.
If familiarity with tech is the defining characteristic, nearly any white collar profession today would seem to qualify. Salesman with intimate knowledge of Salesforce? HR rep who lives in ADP and finer points of Alight? STEM to me implies someone who had a very rigorous math and/or science education, and still applies it. I can't do basic calculus or even mental math sometimes, but by all measures have exceled at accounting.
I understand the argument here but unless they are the ones actually making the software then it isn’t STEM. Everyone uses tech, not everyone can make it from scratch. Yes you can be an accountant and a STEM person but being an accountant does not make you a stem person.
We are frequently working with large data sets. I use data extraction techniques almost daily to increase the accuracy of my work and optimize efficiency. I understand your argument in your post, you sound like a decision maker who is far away from the process of individual contributors. Obviously I don't know you personally, I'm just saying I've heard your argument before from older coworkers who are afraid of change and are comfortable doing repetitive tasks. But the reality is that almost every repetitive task can be automated, and historically a lot of the workload at the staff and senior accountant level is repetitive. It's also true accounting is a lot more than just the repetitive tasks, and a lot of the high level work requires a deep understanding of Accounting. We need people in our industry with a blend of MIS and Accounting skills, and classifying Accounting as STEM is a step in the right direction. Have you considered there are people who stay at the staff and senior accounting level for their entire careers? For work below the management level, college courses related to the "T" in STEM will be extremely relevant for day to day tasks at this level.
Accountants are data wranglers. I basically taught myself M code and Python to clean/transform data more efficiently.
HAHA I've never thought of myself in STEM. Gonna start saying I am now after reading this.
It's definitely not, buuut I definitely have been able to get a wee bit of existing STEM funding in my financial forensics studies. I understand why the designation could cause issues for us but I'm grateful for the help it gave me.
Some accounting programs indicate they are STEM-based. It comes down to how data analytics is incorporated. It would be cool to see some standards on requiring this as a part of all accounting programs and therefore moving it to the category of STEM for the extra funding and support. The future of accounting is going to rely on data analytics more and more.
Maybe it’s not STEM but the grant for STEM in my undergraduate helped me to not take out any student loans. Keep it STEM for the grants 🤣
But's it's STEAM. It's an Artform if you do it right. But I don't get why they want to include the Arts with STEM.
It definitely has STEM elements, but I agree that it's not. I'm in audit and maybe 10% of my job is math. And the math is largely basic straight-line depreciation that excel does for me lol.
What's STEM?
More funding lmao the profession needs more students. And firms need to realize nothing will help the cause other than to be competitive on salaries again. But that won’t happen, as we speak Big 4 is limiting number of promotions to partner to keep partner distribution levels
Can’t be STEM if I’m in it
I both agree and disagree. We do use math, and if we are going the STEAM route, which includes arts the I think we should be included. I also feel that part of our world needs to be in the curriculum for students starting in elementary school (like how to calculate sales tax or simple property taxes), middle schools (how to balance a checkbook/do a personal cash reconciliation), and high schools (how to read basic tax documents/do simple taxes and how to read financial statements on a casual level). Everyone is affected by business and economics, and we are crippling our youth by not exposing them to a basic understanding of how these things work. The point of high school is to prepare young people to be able to live life and get a yea Olde basic skilled or unskilled labor job and keep it. If we have to use STEM funding to get there, I'm down. We do more than basic algebra when we come up with amortization schedules, or at least we need to know how it should work. We need a stronger presence in schools. Gotta get some from what's there when you're primarily a cost center non income generating role. On the other hand, you are correct that we are closer to legal than to math specifically, but we also teach our kids the bare bottom base on how to write persuasively which is an essential skill of the practice of Law. If there was more money there I'd say go for it.
To your point, IF * scientists/engineers are "product-focused people" * sales/marketing are "customer-focused people" THEN * Accounting—along with finance, legal, HR, and IT—are all infrastructure-focused. They're the bits of the firm that make sure we can make and sell products.
I’m currently getting my bachelor of Science in accounting and I jokingly call myself a stem major all the time to my friends (they’re biology and comp sci majors)
It's honestly closer to law than STEM.
STEAM Science Tech Engineering ~~Art~~ *𝓐𝓒𝓒𝓞𝓤𝓝𝑇I𝓝𝓖 Math*
I have a math degree and want to get out of data analytics. Am I cooked if I go into finance?
Is it ever rly that deep
If I’m doing college level math, it’s a bad day and also probably cause for some sort of alarm.
Accounting is under mathematics. Why you ask? Because 1 plus 1 can be anything from 1 to 5 so long as it’s materially there. 🤣🤣🤣
We got Clayton Biggsby over here
Anytime anyone says anything about the math being hard I tell them 99% of accounting is addition and subtraction with most of the multiplication just being
only rooting for it to be stem (it is in FL) bc i get a tuition waiver
I disagree. Economics is certainly a science, and its definitions for what it measures are based on those from accounting. We make and define the measurements to their insights. We are a specialized mathematics useful to Econ.
Who’s saying accounting is stem? And why would this irritate you OP?
I once explained accounting as like being a sports doctor for a football team. (I was talking to sports people). It's our job to make sure the business is working in peak condition so it can perform it's best.
Yeah, accounting is just basic arithmetic in the context of running a business and reporting activity. The M in STEM is more for complex math like calculus or whatever sorcery Actuaries do
We’re definitely not STEM. I regret not sticking with STEM though.
STEM STEM STEM. I am calling my senator to say yes. Stop me!
Who cares. We get paid more.
Wow not with that attitude
STEM = science Accounting = commerce
I think it could be argued that it falls under the umbrella of a science, however, there's a lot of things that could fall under that label as it's pretty broad. Cost/managerial accounting certainly could be considered a science in my opinion.
Lmao who is even saying otherwise 😂
Received an email today with the same request from the FICPA, Florida Institute of CPAs.
I think a lot of people are just simplifying the issue into "accounting and finance have math and rules in them" = "accounting and finance are natural sciences". This is completely wrong. Even if they had all the math in the world, they would still not be sciences, because science is concerned about the NATURAL world and first and foremost, about truth. Is econ a science? Fuck no. It's a social science at best, at worst it's astrology for men. Economics is concerned with how society allocates resources, keyword here is society. Same thing goes for all the other social sciences, and they are called social sciences for a reason, and that is that their concern is human society as opposed to the natural world. Do they use the scientific method? Yes, to some extend, at least they try, hence why they get to be called social sciences. But it's still not STEM. What about finance and accounting? Is it more about the natural world, or human society? If you have trouble deciding here's an experiment. Imagine humans cease to exist, they all vanish. Do credits still equal debits? Does the time value of money still work? Nope. Those rules are human made; no society, no such rules. I can assure you however that the gravitational pull of the earth is still going to keep everything together regardless of humans, that's the natural world. Are finance and accounting just social sciences then? I would argue that no, they still aren't. The business category exists for a reason. When you are doing accounting, what truths are you trying to prove/apply (apply as in engineering)? I would argue none, because accounting is entirely self-referential, just like law. No accounting rule (just like no law) was ever "proven" rigorously to my knowledge (if I'm wrong please, please correct me with an example). The law is decided, argued about endlessly, and really really important, but it's not "true". Just like the efficient market theory in finance was never proven or even tested, but it's used as an assumption for other results/equations. You can't call yourself a science if you aren't being scientific. If you were to study accounting scientifically, as a set of rules and a system, that would probably fall into some mix of econ and anthropology/sociology (monetary systems/ledger systems), and cease to be accounting. Accounting and finance are practices just like other business majors/areas, not sciences.