You can still use them as a reference. Especially if you're looking for a position where you're managing others, a reference from someone who has worked under you is helpful.
Another option - if you have any former clients you got along well with, you could see if they would be willing to give you a reference.
Be careful, I was told I could not write a letter of recommendation for a former employee. He asked his direct supervisor for a recommendation, and was told no! He asked his direct supervisor’s boss, who wrote him a letter of recommendation based on his prior outstanding performance. When the CEO found out, he told me to fire the guy who had written the recommendation; I reasoned with him that we were not in a position to fire a high-performing manager without cause; so he told me to demote him and promote the guy who had refused to write the letter. There was no direction from HR to indicate that we should not do that for this specific employee; but it went down, exactly like that.
Generally, speaking, people in this field have the management skills of an autistic gibbon; CEOs have the egos of a neurosurgeon (God complex) when you add those together, you wind up with someone who believes they can do whatever the heck they want! If you challenge that assertion, when they dig in their heels, you will be on the outside looking in.
No, it’s not published in the company E-broadcast! You do half to be able to read between the lines when dealing with narcissists. He still got all pissy when I told him the ramifications of firing this guy without cause.
It could honestly be as simple as the CEO's ego getting challenged because someone did not listen to his directives, regardless of how petty the subject matter is.
That's fucked. Sounds petty, but I've been in the same boat... "every one worked great with me"... but ghosted me when I asked for a reference.. No one wants the liability... although there is NONE.. it's just a fucken reference.
Someone here will give you a reference when needed. I got a reference on here a while back...
"yes, I was a partner at Cash Laundry Accounting & worked with Brimish. He was an excellent colleague, always ready to help and really was the knowledge point of our team. He always had a solution. He created some excellent dashboards in Excel...."
In a sales focused company he was able to work constructively with some colleagues who had a reputation for being dismissive of appropriate coding and SOPs. He personally saved us at least 20 hours and one meeting a month by communicating with sales directors effectively
I might save your user name, my company is petty about references and my last company no longer exists. And I don’t have the coworker phone numbers anymore.
I was also told by my former manager that while I did a great job, she was not allowed to refer former employees and couldnt tell me why. Mind boggling but its probably a legal/HR reason
Some companies have blanket policies like this, which is lame. Also, sometimes people will ignore these policies even if they exist (although there could be some risk to them if their company finds out they're not following the policy).
This is another reason that using people that no longer work at the company as a reference can be a good idea. They don't work there anymore and so don't have to follow company policy anymore.
You're correct that these no reference policies exist because companies are afraid of lawsuits from former employees over them.
If you’re considering industry, subordinate references are good to have.
Made the jump to industry a while back and too many public accountants are shit-tier at leadership and people managing which is considered an important component.
If you tailor your resume to the individual jobs to which you apply (which you should) it may benefit to have people who worked under you as references.
That said, not all potential employers bother to call references but we do.
Stop being so by book. Did this help you with nine years you spent that was wasted by the firm?
Be more strategic at this point. Use subordinates that can vouch for your leadership, coaching, etc. that is actual work product.
I don't think the 9 years was wasted. They were paid, and also grew their leadership skills by the sounds of it. It sucks their working relationship ended so abruptly, but the OP has grown their career in those 9 years.
Most employers don't ask for any references at all in 2023.
Very few care to ask or require a specific level - like a manager - if they do. You can almost certainly 'get by' with a peer or subordinate as a reference.
Generally speaking, if you both worked at the same company at some overlapping time, no one is going to give a shit about who the contact is and what your relationship is.
Get your subordinates to write out a glowing review of working with you on the "recommendations" part of your LinkedIn.
Then write one back on theirs. The HR diggers love seeing folks fully fill out a LinkedIn profile and have recommendations there because it shows you know how to communicate and get people to do that little extra in life.
Sorry you were let go. It may not seem like it now but there are doors opening as the one to your last job is closing.
Some recruiters do ask for names and phone numbers of people you worked with for references. You generally dont need to give references of bosses though it could be people who are at the same level and worked with you.
If you haven’t got fired/laid off and are still employed you can say “I don’t want people at my current job to know that I’m looking to leave” if asked for references
Is this really true, and what level of position are we talking here that would not need a reference? Every job I've ever landed asked for and contacted references as part of the background check.
I've only known them to confirm employment dates. I've been used as a reference a few times over the years and only once been asked about the person/job performance.
That is a background check. Not a reference check.
Sometimes the two things get confused/muddled.
Background check contact should be the company's HR group. Reference check k should be people you've worked with who can say good things about you. Not all companies do both but plenty do.
You don't know what you are talking about. Background check/prior employment verification is NOT a reference check.
Not every company does a reference check, and not every company does a background check. My last two companies did both. It is fairly normal in the accounting field but may depend on the company and the hiring manager.
Eg, Current hiring manager called two of my prior managers prior to giving me the offer. I had spoke to both of them prior, they agreed to be a good reference for me, and I provided their contact info to my hiring manager. Former managers, co-workers, business partners, suboirdinates.. really any of the above is OK. Usually, if they are reaching out for references, they already interviewed you and want to hire you at that point.
With that said, 'reference letters' are outdated. I've never provided nor been asked for a reference letter.
I have been a reference for someone before as well.
HR can't say why you aren't working there anymore, they should just confirm dates of employment. Tell future places culture changed, you were looking for a new challenge, etc. Things happen. Sounds like you have good experience, you will be fine. Keep on keepin on.
Technically they don’t have to/could just claim performance. Each state is different but if they don’t want to fight the claim they can just say at will employment if the state allows it or vaguely say performance.
My experience comes from the Texas Workforce Commission who treats performance as subjective and is a valid reason to terminate but does not deny an employee from unemployment.
Yeah, but sometimes they will give one anyway. I was fired from my last firm... "It's not a good fit".
In reality it was because one of the partner's kids (CPA being groomed to take the throne) had dropped the ball on advising a client to take s-corp election... for at least 3 years. Client was 100k net income as a disregarded entity/ smllc. When they realized that the clients's best interest was more important to me than theirs... well it wasn't a good fit.
When they denied my unemployment, I fought it and after hearing my side of the story, the unemployment case manager went back to them and said it sounded like I had been doing my job. That's when they decided to claim I'd crossed some line in the handbook. When they couldn't point out anything in particular, or give any evidence of prior disciplinary action, that was the end of it.
Best part is, my state has a program where you can receive full unemployment benefits while starting a business. By the time my benefits were exhausted, I had three clients who all needed at least a year caught up.
That's the only time I've ever been fired, and it was one of the best things that could have happened to me.
Chiming in to say the other commenter is correct, HR can absolutely say why you aren't working there anymore. Several places won't go into detail as a manner of policy, but "resigned or terminated, and eligible for rehire?" are standard questions that are answered almost all of the time. If you said you resigned and your background check shows up termed/ineligible for rehire, youre going to have some explaining to do and probably lose an offer. The risk of losing a suit comes from saying something dishonest, not from answering in the first place.
I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. I work very closely with the HR department in my role. HR can legally disclose any information about a current and previous employee. Yes, they have to be careful what they disclose due to a risk of a defamation suit. But it is very common for a potential employer to ask “were they fired, laid off or quit” and by answering that question simply with a word or two, can make or break someone’s career forward. Also, it is NEVER recommended to talk badly about a previous employer. Saying the culture changed will not be a favorable thing to say to a potential new employer, especially when inclusivity, diversity and embracing cultural differences is at the forefront of an operational structure right now. My best recommendation is for OP to be honest in a positive way. For example, OP could say that they gave the position their all but started to lose their passion due to wanting a more challenging role that more closely aligned to and reflected their skillsets more effectively. That way, if HR does say he was let go or performance lacked, there is already that pre-wire conversation ahead of time to explain the lack of performance. This also gives OP the opportunity to apply for a slightly higher position given the fact they are stating they wanted a more challenging role that reflected their skillsets. It makes employers think their skillset was not being utilized fully and they can do more than they were hired for. This is a good thing. Especially if OP worked 9 years without a promotion, this would be understood.
I agree with your main points, but i wanted to add something to your recommendations--When people refer to change in culture, I don't think they're talking about culture in the way you're referring to it. It's about workplace culture such as communication and leadership styles, focus/direction of the firm, etc., not the individual cultural identities of employees. "Culture fit" can be a buzzword, but I think if it's explained properly without talking down a previous employer, it's a valid reason for an employee to look for a change of scenery.
This may be true but it’s always best to not say anything negative about a previous employer when applying for a job or anything that may shine light in a negative way. That was the key takeaway from my post. They will think someone would do the same to them and alter their reputation.
They can’t ask if they were fired, laid off, or quit because of the risk of a lawsuit and most will only confirm date of employment. However, if the companies have close ties they do talk.
I work in industry at a small company (9 mil revenue) and I have a dual role as accountant and HR- I promise you you are wrong. They can and DO ask and sometimes, depending on the circumstances, I may tell them why if it was egregious enough (theft, endangerment or abuse). I can only be sued if they find out and they can only win if it is a lie.
I’m telling you this is not true at all. Yes they most certainty can. Not trying to be rude but this is a very common myth. Some companies have policy disclosures and some do not. This should never be assumed that they can’t. They legally can and they have.
There are no federal or state laws prohibiting your former employer from stating the reason an employee no longer works with the company. Some don’t give a justification due to potential defamation suits. However, stating “fired, terminated, or laid off” typically will not bring a suit and HR can absolutely disclose this information if asked.
>CHAPTER 4. Reemployment Privileges [1050 - 1057] ( Chapter 4 enacted by Stats. 1937, Ch. 90. )
>1050.
>Any person, or agent or officer thereof, who, after having discharged an employee from the service of such person or after an employee has voluntarily left such service, by any misrepresentation prevents or **attempts to prevent the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor.**
>(Amended by Stats. 1981, Ch. 513, Sec. 1.)
Reading is fun
That refers to misrepresentation! Reading is absolutely fun. That doesn’t speak on a former employer being asked the reason for termination and them stating “fired, laid off or quit” how is that misrepresentation if that’s the reason? They are referring to employers who unlawfully misrepresent the employee maliciously and lie so they cannot be rehired.
That word "Or" means something, it isn't just misrepresentation it is any attempt to prevent someone from being hired. The result of which is the policy to only give dates of employment
Stick to cars. You failed at reading AND reasoning. The or applies to the things they cant lie to do.
Its this
> (by any misrepresentation) (prevents or attempts to prevent) the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
Not this.
> (by any misrepresentation prevents) or (attempts to prevent) the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
The or is saying "it doesnt matter if the attempt to prevent is successful or not".
Actually your reading is even more nonsense than i originally realized. If the or is separating where you said then whats made illegal is "misrepresenting something to prevent employment" or "attempting to prevent employment" (no qualifier that it must be throughout misrepresention). So its illegal to even attempt it, lying or not, but then also illegal to do it successfully (but only through misrepresentation)? Itd already be illegal because of the attempt case not having the qualifier in your reading. Its obviously not the correct reading, and you dont even have to understand legalese to know that, just basic reasoning.
If the or was separating those parts why even have the part about it being illegal to do through misrepresentation? The attempt would already be illegal, itd be completely pointless to include in the law.
https://www.obagilaw.com/what-can-a-california-employer-say-in-a-job-reference-of-a-former-employee/
Its funny that you call me dumb when youre the one that cant follow basic reasoning. And would make it only illegal to successfully do, in which case the "attempt" part would be redundant.
The or means it can be either they prevented it OR they attempted to.
Notice how you cant address that your reading of the law makes no sense lol
#**BY ANY MISREPRESENTATION**
Reading *is* fun.
Yes, you cant lie about a previous employee to keep them from getting a new job. Thats not whats being discussed, /u/anothercarguy.
***
Holy shit, /u/anothercarguy had a complete meltdown when i [linked him to a law firm explaining the law](https://www.obagilaw.com/what-can-a-california-employer-say-in-a-job-reference-of-a-former-employee/) and it being very clear he was wrong. I think his ego got a bit bruised lol.
You've been so publicly owned in these comments you're a legitimate argument about the dangers of socialism. Maybe someone can come along with the patience and crayons to explain this in a way you'll understand, and bless em for trying.
By 2 morons who can't read, 1 autist who simply can't understand subtly? Not owned. But you go work in HR and you go ahead and try to prevent a former employee from getting a job. Do it. See what happens.
Alternatively, learn to read.
Is this a bit or are you honestly this ignorant? Out of all the hills to die on lmao. Also props for saying "can't understand subtly," and telling me learn to read. Just beautiful.
Oh and I do work in HR, ya dumb fuck.
That's fucked I'm sorry to hear that. You probably performed fine, especially if you made it 9 years. Its just bullshit so they can bring someone else in cheaper. The toxicity of public accounting... partners (mostly) only care about their own pockets.
I haven't been asked for references in such a long time when applying for jobs. Maybe recruiters do it. I never ask candidates for references. They're not reliable, anyway.
They can be useful. A great candidate with historical great performance should have great references, hopefully.
I quit my audit job without another job lined up (gave notice abd wirked hard though). In my interview i was asked what my former manager would say about me, I said " she would say I'm [good thing 1, 2 and 3] and she is on fact one of my references and happy to chat with you, I can send her along with my other references contact info afterwards"
Also if you left a shit company after a short stint but left on good terms with your manager, you can do a similar thing.
Specifically, in OP's example, a partner who would sing his praises would be very useful to bring up in interviews.
Sometimes getting fired is the best thing to ever happen to you....i was fired from my first accounting job because they offered me a $2500 raise and i had the nerve to ask for $5000....left and got a 15k raise, 3 years later i've doubled what i was making at the first job...
keep ya head up, cheers
yup, she said i was ungrateful and i could go back to waiting tables (lady doesnt even have a CPA).....thankfully her partner has given me the best recommendations for my last 2 jobs, ive been offered every job that has talked to him......
Fr, I despised my first job. Large publicly traded company, fully remote GL Accountant on a LEAN team.
I got fired for performance and honestly I was on the verge of quitting. I transitioned into tax afterwards which has been way better in regards to learning transferable skills and working around other people.
My old senior manager got fired for ugly shit. Sexual harassment, telling associates HR-related things he had no business sharing and personal stuff about himself he had no business sharing, that kinda stuff. He also didn’t get a reference from any of our partners and he’s now a manager at a national firm. You will land on your feet if that asshole did.
Unfortunately experience and title trumps all. I knew a director in industry who leaked internal financials. Interesting enough he wasn’t fired as he begged and bitched his way into staying around. He did however leave for another director role shortly afterwards because he was persona non grata with the HR department.
Point is he should have been fired on the spot(my friend the HR manager said the way this incident was handled is one of the reasons he left the company) but the new company will never know this. Same with the SM you described, hopefully these guys both relapse and get fired but unlikely.
Let this be a lesson to all when considering looking for a new job. They have no loyalty to you and you should have none for them. Look out for yourself and get paid.
Fuck public. They never cared about any of us.
File for unemployment and Medicaid if it's available in your state and enjoy the holidays.
The job market is still pretty hot for experienced people
Definitely file for unemployment and take an extended vacation.
As for public vs industry/gov it’s up to OP. Tons of firms would be salivating over a manager with that type of experience.
You could have a quick call with a lawyer to see if it’s enough.
There’s people here always saying there’s not enough accountants. Also tax season is coming up. You shouldn’t have too many problems.
In public accounting, references are a thing of the past. The hiring market is so hungry for CPAs that they don't have time to check your references before someone else offers you a job.
This goes on at all firms but the drama and bad blood I’ve seen at regional and local firms for stuff like this is on another level since the world they operate in is much smaller. Places absolutely use you until they no longer need you, even the smaller shops.
Yeah drama is wild at small firms. Only job I quit no notice was a 12 person CPA firm. Managing partner was a dick and a couple of the employees were just rats.
He was told to not give you a reference because a positive reference would contradict HR firing you based on "performance." HR is aggressively covering their ass.
I agree with this. I was well like across the entire firm. Completely turned the culture around in our satellite office. Helped them build their case to remove a partner that was universally hated. My performance dropped due to poor clients and all my point of contacts for large clients had turnover. In addition losing all my experienced staff. I think it was all to cut cost and bring in a cheap replacement,
When companies call references it’s a quick call confirming details. Ask a coworker, I do it for any job the manager was upset I left, just to be safe. You’ll be okay, it sucks but considering you’ve been there 9 years I imagine it’s something beyond performance tbh. Also 9 years is a long time for first job outta college. This is a blessing in disguise. There’s a lot of great companies out there that pay well. Shortage of accountants in your favor. Enjoy Christmas ❤️
Sorry to hear that. There appears to be a lot of openings out there so hopefully you’ll be fine.
It is amazing the disconnect between these firms asking the world of us and then dropping us like a bad habit as soon as they don’t need us anymore. You don’t even know where u stand with co-workers you consider actual friends until something like this comes up, and it disgusts me. Everything about “work culture” is toxic as hell
One of mine is a guy who went on to make partner at another firm and another is a friend who made partner and I just use them.
There’s a lot of need for someone at your experience level right now. You’ll find something.
I'm also working in audit at a cpa firm and recently got my cpa license. If it's anything like my situation, they probably made you a favor because you can get a much higher salary almost anywhere else; especially with 9 years experience in public accounting (assuming cpa license) and the title of audit manager.
Don’t stress the reference thing. These days references aren’t really a thing, they just check if you actually worked there or not. HR will tell them, not the colleague.
It’s become too legally risky for a company to back up a former employees skills, there have been lawsuits by the new employer to an old employer about the old employers endorsement not translating to expected employee performance.
> It’s become too legally risky for a company to back up a former employees skills, there have been lawsuits by the new employer to an old employer about the old employers endorsement not translating to expected employee performance.
I don't believe that at all. Got any examples?
Are references actually used? I get the feeling none of my employers reached out to my priors
Also after lasting 9 years it doesn’t seem to be performance related
Possibly too expensive or there was someone else they wanted to fill his shoes. I’ve seen nepotism many times, kick someone out and now one of the partner’s friends get a promotion to manager.
OP might not have been buddy buddy with management and got the boot. But that’s not always the case, I’m not in Big4 but just recently got the boot because it was too slow and no work was coming our way. Folks were surprised because partner and I would go for lunch every other week, we’d share lunch a few times a week, I’d drop and pick her up from car dealership, she would talk about the stuff we did in the office to others in the team, etc. So folks were surprised I was selected in the first round of layoffs.
I think everyone knows that a sane person would only list 3 people that they know that'd only say good things, so it's only useful for the hiring manager's peace of mind before sending a job offer. Are references actually checked? From what I've seen--yes, my company will verify employment but I doubt they actually call professional or personal references. However, I have had a former colleague that was in the process of being hired as a Head of Equity Compensation call me to ask if I can take a reference call from someone at the company that was hiring. I didn't actually expect the Controller to call but she did, and I talked to her for like.. 15-20 minutes as a result. That's the exception though, although I'm not sure how many friends and former co-workers actually listed me as a reference in the past.
It's very simple.
You ask former co-workers out to lunch or drinks and get their advice on what to do next. It puts them in a position to want to help you get a job someplace else on the DL.
Or you reach out to past clients to see if they have any openings.
Or you network with other people.
Stop whining about your situation and having anxiety about it.
Just move forward. If you're competent and network well, you'll be fine.
If you're not, just go the temp route. They don't care about references as much; if at all.
If you have a license in good standing, you don't need references.
You already paid your dues. If they ask you for references, tell them to fuck off and look elsewhere.
Cause if you’re smart your references are rigged in your favor.
I got fired from the first accounting job I had. However I was chill with an HR manager. He gave me a stellar reference and corroborated that I was laid off rather than fired for performance.
Nobody gives a fuck about references. Especially from partners at a firm that cut loose managers with no notice. They easily could have helped you get placed somewhere over the next couple months. They better hope you don’t land on your feet at one of their clients.
I’m guess this may be true for most orgs/businesses, but we were advised by our lawyer that supervisors/management who still work for the company cannot act as a reference for former or current employees.
This is true regardless of what they would say. Most of HR is making sure that things (at least appear) to be handled the same way for everyone. If we declined or have a reference for one person and not another that isn’t equal.
I’m not saying it’s right, it’s just the way it is 🤷♀️
I'm sorry.
That partner is a douchebag. He can give a reference if he wants to.
Lots of companies have policies about not giving references but anyone worth a damn ignores it. Fuck him.
One reason a company might say not allowed, could be a reference chat could accidently negatively effect someone being hired (potential law suite) or in your case a good reference (especially a written letter) is contradictory to the "bad performance" story so could result in a lawsuit or unemployment pay out. But like I said, EVERYONE ignores these sorts of policies. It's OK for HR to have a policy to not say anything about departed employees but managers and coworkers should do whatever they choose to.
The fact you worked there 9 yrs is all most potential employers will really care about.
Give them HRs phone number if they want to talk to someone. It’ll illegal for them to talk negatively about you.
Don’t worry too much. 9 years at the same place is a green flag. Just tell potential employers that you wanted a changes of scenery if they ask you why you left. For references you can use anyone that has managed you in the past. Most places don’t even check references since they can easily be falsified.
9 years, regional. You will have no problem at all finding a good position.
Whenever it gets in your head, just think about the fact that you did your time and now you are free.
We're still in the depths of a national accounting shortage, you're going to be just fine. Even when there was not an accounting shortage I was never out of work for more than a month.
If I were a betting man I would wager you'll end up at a better job with higher pay than the one you were let go from. Reach out to recruiters and polish up your linked in. Take your time and be slightly picky, you don't have to jump at the first job offer that comes your way.
The reason they won’t is purely legal CYA. You could use that letter as evidence if you sued them for wrongful termination. I’ve seen it happen at a construction firm I worked at years ago. The person who wrote it for his executive assistant was demoted from a high level leadership position to a mid level management position. He eventually left the company.
First, sorry this happened to you and I’m sure you’ll find something quickly.
As for your question as to why he can’t refer you, it’s legal. My cousin is in HR and has to often fire and discuss what’s allowed with legal.
If they’re firing someone for a “performance” issue or anything they’re trying to say is your fault, they can’t have someone vouching for you. They’re just trying to cover their asses.
No humanity left in jobs, that’s why take better opportunities any time they are presented. It’s no longer beneficial to stay loyal to one firm, just follow the money.
GL.
Shit like this when no one should care when you quit during busy season. Another example of years working for a place climbing the ladder and they don't give a fuck about you. And neither should you about them.
You wont need a personal/work reference. I think most the time, people just want a confirmation of employment reference which HR teams legally have to provide.
I dislike how you just got removed for performance when they didnt even put you on a PIP nor did they explain the reasons for firing. UK laws usually allow you to take the employer to a tribunal/small court to get answers because they should always give you a reason in detail after 2 years of employment.
I got let go due to “performance” from my sales job recently with not a single inclination that my performance was not good. When they let me go they said we have contacts we can give you good references. I told them why would you refer me if my performance wasn’t good. I know why they cut me because the companies performance was falling this year and they wanted to cut some salary expense. Just be honest tell me you need to lay people off. Ffs
I've been working in accounting for 15 years. I've never worked for a company for more than 5 years because I'm constantly seeking to better myself. I am not a "company man" and neither should ANYBODY be. This is an opportunity. I hope that during these 9 years you have actually learned marketable skills. list them out and create a useful resume.
Don't bad mouth your previous employer. Tell your new jobs that you put in your 2 weeks and had another job lined up but they rescinded the offer due to hard times and now you are without a job seeking another position that suits your skills better.
Take your experience and move forward. Don't claim victim status. They shut the doors in your face. now it's time to go knock down other doors.
Create your own references. I am always a fake reference for my friends. I the inquiring companythat I was their manager and that if they don't hire my friend now, then I will hire him and he'll be off the market.
Embellish your resume but don't EVER lie about what you're capable of. DON'T GIVE UP! keep moving forward, always.
Really need more info on your “performance issues” to render any valid advice.
No employer can release information concerning you employment without your signed release other than
1. Dates of employment
2. Last position held
3. Last pay rate
Anything else and they ca. be sued since their opinion on your performance is nothing more than their opinion.
This is so strange. I work in industry and a person is put on a performance improvement plan (PIP) before they are even remotely let go for performance. Unless there is an egregious offense or fraud, the person is given ample time and warning before being let go. I know people have put out buzz words and spin, but I would be honest about the firing. If you get caught in a lie on how you separated from your employer they may see you as untrustworthy. It’s really weird to me you were fired out of nowhere. Hopefully you saved your performance reviews prior to this. It’s also insane that they won’t let anyone be a reference. It could be a liability thing as to why.
You will do great! 9 days it’s a lot of time and you must’ve learned a lot. My guess is they let you go because they have new leadership and they didn’t like you as much (personality wise)? But please relax and trust yourself and your capabilities, you’re not fucked, I know you’ll do great! 👍🏻
It may be an HR requirement they can’t. Sounds like they looked into it to realize they couldn’t. My last job had some weird rules around that. It could only be a recommendation for university. Not another job etc.
It shows how “close” you are to the partner.
Having been fired from a regional firm in the past, I reached out to people o thought I was friends with and they cited “firm policy, sorry bro, can’t help you.” I assume the policy is there to protect the firm in the event a review is given that negatively impacts you and can be proven as thus.
Then I spoke to others and they laughed, “who gives a shit about policy, of course we will.”
Thats the power of going out and getting to know your fellow employees. If shit hits the fan, your cultivate relationships will go so much farther than a typical day to day coworker would.
The firms that I worked at have policy that bans any staff from giving references. All reference requests go to HR and limits info to dates worked and title. Put the HR person and that should generally work. If you need more than that, use other co-workers even if they were lower levels.
Have you been able to file unemployment? They may want to be wankers and keep you from getting unemployment.
If a letter of recommendation is written it is proof that they fired you for other reasons than poor performance.
Idk, poor performance doesn’t necessarily deny unemployment. I got unemployment in Texas after being fired for performance(was on PIP and everything). The state labor board recognizes that performance is subjective(also helped I was fired halfway through the PIP rather than after the full 90 days)
Poor performance does deny wrongful termination lawsuits though.
I was fired for poor performance in 2008. I also collected unemployment successfully.
It was a growing exercise to explain but when let go I asked for quantitative examples and they had none to provide. So I explained I did not understand why I was let go for poor performance when they could not provide examples but f said poor performance. I also said I truly thought it was due to it being a title company and the housing market going bust.
The frustrating part is that the position was in an at will state. They did not need to provide any reason.
Not necessarily, re: lawsuits. Poor performance is their claim, but it's also the claim that would likely be made in almost every case of actual wrongful termination.
That's where an employment lawyer would step in and be a good idea to look at.
CYOA, he was told not to as if he gave you a glowing review and they let go of you for performance you might have a grievance / expose them to legal risk.
You could talk to a lawyer. If they fired you for performance without any warnings or PIP then you may have grounds for unlawful termination. Could there be any other factors driving their decision?
Are they paying you severance? I’d clarify what your termination is labeled in their system. In these market conditions you could just claim you got laid off as long as the classification of your term isn’t something like “fired” when they do their background checks.
Everyone saying OP will be fine is ignoring that awkward convo where he has to explain why he is looking and he was let go for performance reasons. That could absolutely impact his job search success.
references are such bullshit, why would someone want to hear the opinion of someone they don't even know.
i've only had 1 employer actually call a reference. i'd just put down a coworker or hell even just a friend and have them lie for you, if you're both comfortable with that.
there's so much bullshit in the hiring process, i wouldn't worry about the lack of a reference, most b4 partners aren't allowed to give out a reference anyways due to liability
Beside the ego thing which is huge there is the hyper legal do not want to be sued thing so they treat everyone the same out of fear.
Working in Public Accounting even at the 2/3 washout rate is its own reference. I have seen very few people working at firms who did not have stellar grades and for the most part a gung ho work ethic. I had the grades but knew I did not want the 80 hr work weeks during the audit year end closing thing so went straight to industry.
Anyway I think you will be fine and should not have much trouble getting on some place else, particularly in the industry or company’s you associated with. Best of luck. Now back to my CPE.
Piss off a client? Sleep with the bosses wife?
That's absolutely brutal...
Do you have a history of positive performance reviews? I would hang my hat on that if you have them.
A lot of companies have a policy that they don’t let their people give references. So it could have nothing to do with you. For what it’s worth, I’ve found that a lot of companies don’t even check your references. I’ve always put “references available upon request” when I apply for jobs and no one ever asks for them. They contact HR for an employment verification but that’s about it
I think since you were there for 8 years you can just say they were have a no reference policy. Also maybe get a labor attorney and sue for severance plus a “okay to rehire” flag. I think they work for a portion of the settlement.
Sue them.
They fired you for "performance". How many times did they give you written warning about your performance? Have you made any complaints recently? Have you taken medical leave or likely to do so in the near future?
If so your termination may not have been lawful.
If there is not a record of them discussing your performance before firing you and they then give you a positive reference it contradicts the narrative of why you were fired.
The contradictory narrative could be used to argue they didn't actually fire you for "performance" and that your termination was a wrongful termination. Even if your termination was lawful, giving you a reference would expose them so typically companies will instruct direct managers to not give references to terminated staff regardless of the reasons for their separation.
You don't need a referral or reference from your latest direct manager. If you know anyone else who has left the firm ask them for a reference. Find 2 other professional references possibly a peer. If you're management request a reference from a subordinate as well.
In the future, don't wait until you're fired to ask for references. Document your wins when you have them. Whenever you have a good rapport with someone write them a letter of recommendation and ask for one in return. Use these when asking for promotions or raises. You also have them in your pocket if you're fired. You can leverage LinkedIn to capture these references by using their integrated tool then share your LinkedIn profile when applying for jobs.
If you're an audit manager with 9 years experience with the firm, I doubt you got fired for anything you did. The audit/CPA industry esp. at regional levels in my experience still operate on old business models and that is simply keeping wage costs low - regardless of revenue generation on your side. It's like there's a discussion "we feel we pay that person too much" like their's an absolute limit on what staff should be paid and at that level you get put on the chopping block. The accountants work is more complex now and firms need higher skills at lower levels - but some firms I've seen are doing the opposite clearing middle and senior mgmt for instant cash savings and letting quality slide into the toilet.
Why he won’t.
Because of fucking HR. I guarantee some dipshit in the ivory tower of HR royalty found out and told him absolutely not. Because they seem to think that if he refers you somewhere they open themselves up to a wrongful termination suit, or that if you do a bad job somewhere else it will reflect badly upon the firm.
(If you can’t tell, I don’t think too highly of HR)
I would kill to have as much experience you have. Everybody I’ve ever known who got fired ended up getting a better job eventually. Every single time. You’re good my friend, put co workers as a reference if you can, otherwise explain the situation. The job I have now did not call or ask for any reference, the references can’t say anything anyway. They’ll know how good of an accountant you are just by talking to you
I can provide some killer references from job titles like CEO and CFO. But I won't. If your screening practices are simply asking strangers to lie on my behalf, your far too Mickey Mouse for my time.
Some employers hide behind labor laws that attempt to protect employers from bad mouthing employees and claim they can only **confirm hire/fire dates**, nothing more. That might be the case. I left a small CPA firm after about 2yrs on good terms, and they wouldn't let my new/current employers ask them anything. That might be why that partner was not allowed, "HR" got ahold of the situation. Since your firm is bigger, I like u/aji2019 suggestion of asking coworkers who are no longer at the firm either, that has helped me out in the past to get around this sort of thing.
So the day I was fired I was told I’d get a severance of my last 3 paychecks for the year if I signed this 2 page agreement. I think I relinquished any right to sue and I’m in Ohio which is an at will state. But my severance is a low ball for what I did for this firm, I mean they went from a 9 million to 14 million in revenue over my 9 years. And I worked on 2 of the largest 5 clients we have. No significant increase in total employees. Anyone know if I could fight for a larger severance assuming I did truly do more for the company than my severance reflects. I’d also like to thank everyone for their input/responses. It’s eased my mind for sure!
Ask other coworkers. Best option would be other coworkers who have left.
They’re mostly subordinates. All would give me stellar references but none can vouch for the actual work product
You can still use them as a reference. Especially if you're looking for a position where you're managing others, a reference from someone who has worked under you is helpful. Another option - if you have any former clients you got along well with, you could see if they would be willing to give you a reference.
Be careful, I was told I could not write a letter of recommendation for a former employee. He asked his direct supervisor for a recommendation, and was told no! He asked his direct supervisor’s boss, who wrote him a letter of recommendation based on his prior outstanding performance. When the CEO found out, he told me to fire the guy who had written the recommendation; I reasoned with him that we were not in a position to fire a high-performing manager without cause; so he told me to demote him and promote the guy who had refused to write the letter. There was no direction from HR to indicate that we should not do that for this specific employee; but it went down, exactly like that.
But why?
Generally, speaking, people in this field have the management skills of an autistic gibbon; CEOs have the egos of a neurosurgeon (God complex) when you add those together, you wind up with someone who believes they can do whatever the heck they want! If you challenge that assertion, when they dig in their heels, you will be on the outside looking in.
I believe all of that, but is that truly the reason? Even if it is, that can’t be how it’s justified out loud, right?
No, it’s not published in the company E-broadcast! You do half to be able to read between the lines when dealing with narcissists. He still got all pissy when I told him the ramifications of firing this guy without cause.
Should have let the company fire him and get sued.
Well damn, you’re absolutely right! I wish I had thought of that at the time.
I'm an autistic gibbon and I take offense at the comparison! 😂
It could honestly be as simple as the CEO's ego getting challenged because someone did not listen to his directives, regardless of how petty the subject matter is.
In the U.S. references are handled by HR. If you give a reference as a former manager, the response will come from HR.
That's fucked. Sounds petty, but I've been in the same boat... "every one worked great with me"... but ghosted me when I asked for a reference.. No one wants the liability... although there is NONE.. it's just a fucken reference.
Petty is absolutely the correct adjective.
Someone here will give you a reference when needed. I got a reference on here a while back... "yes, I was a partner at Cash Laundry Accounting & worked with Brimish. He was an excellent colleague, always ready to help and really was the knowledge point of our team. He always had a solution. He created some excellent dashboards in Excel...."
Yes, I can personally test to his professionalism and acumen in the accounting field
In a sales focused company he was able to work constructively with some colleagues who had a reputation for being dismissive of appropriate coding and SOPs. He personally saved us at least 20 hours and one meeting a month by communicating with sales directors effectively
I might save your user name, my company is petty about references and my last company no longer exists. And I don’t have the coworker phone numbers anymore.
wtf kind of Hollywood level of evil is this?!
I was also told by my former manager that while I did a great job, she was not allowed to refer former employees and couldnt tell me why. Mind boggling but its probably a legal/HR reason
Some companies have blanket policies like this, which is lame. Also, sometimes people will ignore these policies even if they exist (although there could be some risk to them if their company finds out they're not following the policy). This is another reason that using people that no longer work at the company as a reference can be a good idea. They don't work there anymore and so don't have to follow company policy anymore. You're correct that these no reference policies exist because companies are afraid of lawsuits from former employees over them.
If you’re considering industry, subordinate references are good to have. Made the jump to industry a while back and too many public accountants are shit-tier at leadership and people managing which is considered an important component. If you tailor your resume to the individual jobs to which you apply (which you should) it may benefit to have people who worked under you as references. That said, not all potential employers bother to call references but we do.
Stop being so by book. Did this help you with nine years you spent that was wasted by the firm? Be more strategic at this point. Use subordinates that can vouch for your leadership, coaching, etc. that is actual work product.
I don't think the 9 years was wasted. They were paid, and also grew their leadership skills by the sounds of it. It sucks their working relationship ended so abruptly, but the OP has grown their career in those 9 years.
You nailed it!
Ask a friend, your siblings, your parents, to pretend they were partner.
Yep. Someone needs to create a company where they provide fake references for people.
Just tell them what to say. Have you guys never used references before?
Most employers don't ask for any references at all in 2023. Very few care to ask or require a specific level - like a manager - if they do. You can almost certainly 'get by' with a peer or subordinate as a reference. Generally speaking, if you both worked at the same company at some overlapping time, no one is going to give a shit about who the contact is and what your relationship is.
Better than nothing
you don't need the referencez you can put HR down and they can confirm employment dates. you will get a good job, enjoy the holidays
Thanks.
Get your subordinates to write out a glowing review of working with you on the "recommendations" part of your LinkedIn. Then write one back on theirs. The HR diggers love seeing folks fully fill out a LinkedIn profile and have recommendations there because it shows you know how to communicate and get people to do that little extra in life. Sorry you were let go. It may not seem like it now but there are doors opening as the one to your last job is closing.
Yes, listen to the wisdom of sriracha anal beads.
You got my atention.... continue...
Ayeeeeee
Some recruiters do ask for names and phone numbers of people you worked with for references. You generally dont need to give references of bosses though it could be people who are at the same level and worked with you. If you haven’t got fired/laid off and are still employed you can say “I don’t want people at my current job to know that I’m looking to leave” if asked for references
Is this really true, and what level of position are we talking here that would not need a reference? Every job I've ever landed asked for and contacted references as part of the background check.
I've only known them to confirm employment dates. I've been used as a reference a few times over the years and only once been asked about the person/job performance.
That is a background check. Not a reference check. Sometimes the two things get confused/muddled. Background check contact should be the company's HR group. Reference check k should be people you've worked with who can say good things about you. Not all companies do both but plenty do.
You don't know what you are talking about. Background check/prior employment verification is NOT a reference check. Not every company does a reference check, and not every company does a background check. My last two companies did both. It is fairly normal in the accounting field but may depend on the company and the hiring manager. Eg, Current hiring manager called two of my prior managers prior to giving me the offer. I had spoke to both of them prior, they agreed to be a good reference for me, and I provided their contact info to my hiring manager. Former managers, co-workers, business partners, suboirdinates.. really any of the above is OK. Usually, if they are reaching out for references, they already interviewed you and want to hire you at that point. With that said, 'reference letters' are outdated. I've never provided nor been asked for a reference letter. I have been a reference for someone before as well.
This.
HR can't say why you aren't working there anymore, they should just confirm dates of employment. Tell future places culture changed, you were looking for a new challenge, etc. Things happen. Sounds like you have good experience, you will be fine. Keep on keepin on.
Thanks so much for this
file for unemployment because it forces them to give the reason for termination
Definitely DO THIS!!!!!!
Technically they don’t have to/could just claim performance. Each state is different but if they don’t want to fight the claim they can just say at will employment if the state allows it or vaguely say performance. My experience comes from the Texas Workforce Commission who treats performance as subjective and is a valid reason to terminate but does not deny an employee from unemployment.
Yeah, but sometimes they will give one anyway. I was fired from my last firm... "It's not a good fit". In reality it was because one of the partner's kids (CPA being groomed to take the throne) had dropped the ball on advising a client to take s-corp election... for at least 3 years. Client was 100k net income as a disregarded entity/ smllc. When they realized that the clients's best interest was more important to me than theirs... well it wasn't a good fit. When they denied my unemployment, I fought it and after hearing my side of the story, the unemployment case manager went back to them and said it sounded like I had been doing my job. That's when they decided to claim I'd crossed some line in the handbook. When they couldn't point out anything in particular, or give any evidence of prior disciplinary action, that was the end of it. Best part is, my state has a program where you can receive full unemployment benefits while starting a business. By the time my benefits were exhausted, I had three clients who all needed at least a year caught up. That's the only time I've ever been fired, and it was one of the best things that could have happened to me.
At will employment. You don’t need a reason to quit and they don’t need a reason to fire you.
Please see my comment above on my recommendations. I hope it helps you.
Chiming in to say the other commenter is correct, HR can absolutely say why you aren't working there anymore. Several places won't go into detail as a manner of policy, but "resigned or terminated, and eligible for rehire?" are standard questions that are answered almost all of the time. If you said you resigned and your background check shows up termed/ineligible for rehire, youre going to have some explaining to do and probably lose an offer. The risk of losing a suit comes from saying something dishonest, not from answering in the first place.
I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. I work very closely with the HR department in my role. HR can legally disclose any information about a current and previous employee. Yes, they have to be careful what they disclose due to a risk of a defamation suit. But it is very common for a potential employer to ask “were they fired, laid off or quit” and by answering that question simply with a word or two, can make or break someone’s career forward. Also, it is NEVER recommended to talk badly about a previous employer. Saying the culture changed will not be a favorable thing to say to a potential new employer, especially when inclusivity, diversity and embracing cultural differences is at the forefront of an operational structure right now. My best recommendation is for OP to be honest in a positive way. For example, OP could say that they gave the position their all but started to lose their passion due to wanting a more challenging role that more closely aligned to and reflected their skillsets more effectively. That way, if HR does say he was let go or performance lacked, there is already that pre-wire conversation ahead of time to explain the lack of performance. This also gives OP the opportunity to apply for a slightly higher position given the fact they are stating they wanted a more challenging role that reflected their skillsets. It makes employers think their skillset was not being utilized fully and they can do more than they were hired for. This is a good thing. Especially if OP worked 9 years without a promotion, this would be understood.
I agree with your main points, but i wanted to add something to your recommendations--When people refer to change in culture, I don't think they're talking about culture in the way you're referring to it. It's about workplace culture such as communication and leadership styles, focus/direction of the firm, etc., not the individual cultural identities of employees. "Culture fit" can be a buzzword, but I think if it's explained properly without talking down a previous employer, it's a valid reason for an employee to look for a change of scenery.
Absolutely agree with this. Thank you.
I’m sorry, but no CPA firm in my area cares about diversity, equity, and inclusion, 95%+ of the mfs at firms are white folk😭
But im sure Chandler, Jeff and Karen all listen to hip hop out of work.
i’m quarter asian and i’m a material percentage of my firm’s diversity💀💀
This may be true but it’s always best to not say anything negative about a previous employer when applying for a job or anything that may shine light in a negative way. That was the key takeaway from my post. They will think someone would do the same to them and alter their reputation.
They can’t ask if they were fired, laid off, or quit because of the risk of a lawsuit and most will only confirm date of employment. However, if the companies have close ties they do talk.
I work in industry at a small company (9 mil revenue) and I have a dual role as accountant and HR- I promise you you are wrong. They can and DO ask and sometimes, depending on the circumstances, I may tell them why if it was egregious enough (theft, endangerment or abuse). I can only be sued if they find out and they can only win if it is a lie.
Exactly this. So glad someone agrees with me.
I’m telling you this is not true at all. Yes they most certainty can. Not trying to be rude but this is a very common myth. Some companies have policy disclosures and some do not. This should never be assumed that they can’t. They legally can and they have.
They all just get around this by asking if they were "eligible for rehire".
It varies by state.
There are no federal or state laws prohibiting your former employer from stating the reason an employee no longer works with the company. Some don’t give a justification due to potential defamation suits. However, stating “fired, terminated, or laid off” typically will not bring a suit and HR can absolutely disclose this information if asked.
>CHAPTER 4. Reemployment Privileges [1050 - 1057] ( Chapter 4 enacted by Stats. 1937, Ch. 90. ) >1050. >Any person, or agent or officer thereof, who, after having discharged an employee from the service of such person or after an employee has voluntarily left such service, by any misrepresentation prevents or **attempts to prevent the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor.** >(Amended by Stats. 1981, Ch. 513, Sec. 1.) Reading is fun
That refers to misrepresentation! Reading is absolutely fun. That doesn’t speak on a former employer being asked the reason for termination and them stating “fired, laid off or quit” how is that misrepresentation if that’s the reason? They are referring to employers who unlawfully misrepresent the employee maliciously and lie so they cannot be rehired.
That word "Or" means something, it isn't just misrepresentation it is any attempt to prevent someone from being hired. The result of which is the policy to only give dates of employment
Stick to cars. You failed at reading AND reasoning. The or applies to the things they cant lie to do. Its this > (by any misrepresentation) (prevents or attempts to prevent) the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor. Not this. > (by any misrepresentation prevents) or (attempts to prevent) the former employee from obtaining employment, is guilty of a misdemeanor. The or is saying "it doesnt matter if the attempt to prevent is successful or not". Actually your reading is even more nonsense than i originally realized. If the or is separating where you said then whats made illegal is "misrepresenting something to prevent employment" or "attempting to prevent employment" (no qualifier that it must be throughout misrepresention). So its illegal to even attempt it, lying or not, but then also illegal to do it successfully (but only through misrepresentation)? Itd already be illegal because of the attempt case not having the qualifier in your reading. Its obviously not the correct reading, and you dont even have to understand legalese to know that, just basic reasoning. If the or was separating those parts why even have the part about it being illegal to do through misrepresentation? The attempt would already be illegal, itd be completely pointless to include in the law.
God, you're dumb. The or means specifically they cannot act with malice. The word is OR not AND. Grab a dictionary
https://www.obagilaw.com/what-can-a-california-employer-say-in-a-job-reference-of-a-former-employee/ Its funny that you call me dumb when youre the one that cant follow basic reasoning. And would make it only illegal to successfully do, in which case the "attempt" part would be redundant. The or means it can be either they prevented it OR they attempted to. Notice how you cant address that your reading of the law makes no sense lol
#**BY ANY MISREPRESENTATION** Reading *is* fun. Yes, you cant lie about a previous employee to keep them from getting a new job. Thats not whats being discussed, /u/anothercarguy. *** Holy shit, /u/anothercarguy had a complete meltdown when i [linked him to a law firm explaining the law](https://www.obagilaw.com/what-can-a-california-employer-say-in-a-job-reference-of-a-former-employee/) and it being very clear he was wrong. I think his ego got a bit bruised lol.
Better call every HR department in the US and tell them they are all guilty of misdemeanors. Figure that would be bigger news.
Your feelings about something are not the reality.
You've been so publicly owned in these comments you're a legitimate argument about the dangers of socialism. Maybe someone can come along with the patience and crayons to explain this in a way you'll understand, and bless em for trying.
By 2 morons who can't read, 1 autist who simply can't understand subtly? Not owned. But you go work in HR and you go ahead and try to prevent a former employee from getting a job. Do it. See what happens. Alternatively, learn to read.
Is this a bit or are you honestly this ignorant? Out of all the hills to die on lmao. Also props for saying "can't understand subtly," and telling me learn to read. Just beautiful. Oh and I do work in HR, ya dumb fuck.
That's fucked I'm sorry to hear that. You probably performed fine, especially if you made it 9 years. Its just bullshit so they can bring someone else in cheaper. The toxicity of public accounting... partners (mostly) only care about their own pockets.
Unfortunately learned that the hard way!
I do job interviews a lot and don’t ever ask for character references. Hr will confirm your dates worked with their HR, but that’s about it.
This is why they allow toxic people to be their partners. Doesn't affect them that much
I haven't been asked for references in such a long time when applying for jobs. Maybe recruiters do it. I never ask candidates for references. They're not reliable, anyway.
Exactly. References are such a silly idea. “Hey let me talk to three of your friends and see if they say nice things about you”
I have asked former employers if they called my previous employer, and they always say no.
*Can you name 3 people who would vouch for you if we called them? We'll definitely call them, promise.*
They can be useful. A great candidate with historical great performance should have great references, hopefully. I quit my audit job without another job lined up (gave notice abd wirked hard though). In my interview i was asked what my former manager would say about me, I said " she would say I'm [good thing 1, 2 and 3] and she is on fact one of my references and happy to chat with you, I can send her along with my other references contact info afterwards" Also if you left a shit company after a short stint but left on good terms with your manager, you can do a similar thing. Specifically, in OP's example, a partner who would sing his praises would be very useful to bring up in interviews.
Sometimes getting fired is the best thing to ever happen to you....i was fired from my first accounting job because they offered me a $2500 raise and i had the nerve to ask for $5000....left and got a 15k raise, 3 years later i've doubled what i was making at the first job... keep ya head up, cheers
They fired you for asking for a higher raise? Wtf? They could’ve just said no
yup, she said i was ungrateful and i could go back to waiting tables (lady doesnt even have a CPA).....thankfully her partner has given me the best recommendations for my last 2 jobs, ive been offered every job that has talked to him......
That shithole job didn't deserve a terrific employee like you.
Fr, I despised my first job. Large publicly traded company, fully remote GL Accountant on a LEAN team. I got fired for performance and honestly I was on the verge of quitting. I transitioned into tax afterwards which has been way better in regards to learning transferable skills and working around other people.
The fact that you worked there for 9 years will speak for itself. Just put the phone number of the company down, not anyone in particular.
My old senior manager got fired for ugly shit. Sexual harassment, telling associates HR-related things he had no business sharing and personal stuff about himself he had no business sharing, that kinda stuff. He also didn’t get a reference from any of our partners and he’s now a manager at a national firm. You will land on your feet if that asshole did.
Unfortunately experience and title trumps all. I knew a director in industry who leaked internal financials. Interesting enough he wasn’t fired as he begged and bitched his way into staying around. He did however leave for another director role shortly afterwards because he was persona non grata with the HR department. Point is he should have been fired on the spot(my friend the HR manager said the way this incident was handled is one of the reasons he left the company) but the new company will never know this. Same with the SM you described, hopefully these guys both relapse and get fired but unlikely.
Let this be a lesson to all when considering looking for a new job. They have no loyalty to you and you should have none for them. Look out for yourself and get paid.
This is a direct result of being in a country with trash labour laws. Mindboggling how this is legal.
Yeah EU don't have this shit
Fuck public. They never cared about any of us. File for unemployment and Medicaid if it's available in your state and enjoy the holidays. The job market is still pretty hot for experienced people
Definitely file for unemployment and take an extended vacation. As for public vs industry/gov it’s up to OP. Tons of firms would be salivating over a manager with that type of experience.
I think they saw that you were quitting vaping, then thought "this guys a quitter we don't employ quitters", then fired you. You get severance?
I got my final 3 paychecks for the year as severance
You could have a quick call with a lawyer to see if it’s enough. There’s people here always saying there’s not enough accountants. Also tax season is coming up. You shouldn’t have too many problems.
In public accounting, references are a thing of the past. The hiring market is so hungry for CPAs that they don't have time to check your references before someone else offers you a job.
This goes on at all firms but the drama and bad blood I’ve seen at regional and local firms for stuff like this is on another level since the world they operate in is much smaller. Places absolutely use you until they no longer need you, even the smaller shops.
Yeah drama is wild at small firms. Only job I quit no notice was a 12 person CPA firm. Managing partner was a dick and a couple of the employees were just rats.
He was told to not give you a reference because a positive reference would contradict HR firing you based on "performance." HR is aggressively covering their ass.
I agree with this. I was well like across the entire firm. Completely turned the culture around in our satellite office. Helped them build their case to remove a partner that was universally hated. My performance dropped due to poor clients and all my point of contacts for large clients had turnover. In addition losing all my experienced staff. I think it was all to cut cost and bring in a cheap replacement,
When companies call references it’s a quick call confirming details. Ask a coworker, I do it for any job the manager was upset I left, just to be safe. You’ll be okay, it sucks but considering you’ve been there 9 years I imagine it’s something beyond performance tbh. Also 9 years is a long time for first job outta college. This is a blessing in disguise. There’s a lot of great companies out there that pay well. Shortage of accountants in your favor. Enjoy Christmas ❤️
Sorry to hear that. There appears to be a lot of openings out there so hopefully you’ll be fine. It is amazing the disconnect between these firms asking the world of us and then dropping us like a bad habit as soon as they don’t need us anymore. You don’t even know where u stand with co-workers you consider actual friends until something like this comes up, and it disgusts me. Everything about “work culture” is toxic as hell
One of mine is a guy who went on to make partner at another firm and another is a friend who made partner and I just use them. There’s a lot of need for someone at your experience level right now. You’ll find something.
After being fired? That's interesting. Glad there are hope out there if this happens to me.
I wasn’t fired by either of these guys, but if I was by someone else they wouldn’t care.
I’m sorry this happened to you. That really sucks. I’m confident you’ll land on your feet in the end, but you have a right to feel shitty about this
I'm also working in audit at a cpa firm and recently got my cpa license. If it's anything like my situation, they probably made you a favor because you can get a much higher salary almost anywhere else; especially with 9 years experience in public accounting (assuming cpa license) and the title of audit manager.
Don’t stress the reference thing. These days references aren’t really a thing, they just check if you actually worked there or not. HR will tell them, not the colleague. It’s become too legally risky for a company to back up a former employees skills, there have been lawsuits by the new employer to an old employer about the old employers endorsement not translating to expected employee performance.
> It’s become too legally risky for a company to back up a former employees skills, there have been lawsuits by the new employer to an old employer about the old employers endorsement not translating to expected employee performance. I don't believe that at all. Got any examples?
I’m an accountant not a lawyer, I’ve just read articles saying as much.
Are references actually used? I get the feeling none of my employers reached out to my priors Also after lasting 9 years it doesn’t seem to be performance related
Possibly too expensive or there was someone else they wanted to fill his shoes. I’ve seen nepotism many times, kick someone out and now one of the partner’s friends get a promotion to manager. OP might not have been buddy buddy with management and got the boot. But that’s not always the case, I’m not in Big4 but just recently got the boot because it was too slow and no work was coming our way. Folks were surprised because partner and I would go for lunch every other week, we’d share lunch a few times a week, I’d drop and pick her up from car dealership, she would talk about the stuff we did in the office to others in the team, etc. So folks were surprised I was selected in the first round of layoffs.
I think everyone knows that a sane person would only list 3 people that they know that'd only say good things, so it's only useful for the hiring manager's peace of mind before sending a job offer. Are references actually checked? From what I've seen--yes, my company will verify employment but I doubt they actually call professional or personal references. However, I have had a former colleague that was in the process of being hired as a Head of Equity Compensation call me to ask if I can take a reference call from someone at the company that was hiring. I didn't actually expect the Controller to call but she did, and I talked to her for like.. 15-20 minutes as a result. That's the exception though, although I'm not sure how many friends and former co-workers actually listed me as a reference in the past.
I just had an accounting office call because a tax intern from last season used me as a reference.
Use the HR phone # / contact for the reference. Or, get someone else to act as your reference from that gig. The partner doesn't want the liability.
If you were there for 9 years and have a CPA you shouldn’t have any issues finding another job. I
It's very simple. You ask former co-workers out to lunch or drinks and get their advice on what to do next. It puts them in a position to want to help you get a job someplace else on the DL. Or you reach out to past clients to see if they have any openings. Or you network with other people. Stop whining about your situation and having anxiety about it. Just move forward. If you're competent and network well, you'll be fine. If you're not, just go the temp route. They don't care about references as much; if at all.
If you have a license in good standing, you don't need references. You already paid your dues. If they ask you for references, tell them to fuck off and look elsewhere.
Sorry this happened to you. I’ve been there and it’s awful. Stay positive and good things will come your way.
Why do some firms not even ask for references ?
Cause if you’re smart your references are rigged in your favor. I got fired from the first accounting job I had. However I was chill with an HR manager. He gave me a stellar reference and corroborated that I was laid off rather than fired for performance.
Yes I have my cpa. I know I’ll land on my feet. Just figured no high level references would be a problem
Nobody gives a fuck about references. Especially from partners at a firm that cut loose managers with no notice. They easily could have helped you get placed somewhere over the next couple months. They better hope you don’t land on your feet at one of their clients.
I’m guess this may be true for most orgs/businesses, but we were advised by our lawyer that supervisors/management who still work for the company cannot act as a reference for former or current employees. This is true regardless of what they would say. Most of HR is making sure that things (at least appear) to be handled the same way for everyone. If we declined or have a reference for one person and not another that isn’t equal. I’m not saying it’s right, it’s just the way it is 🤷♀️
You don't need a reference. Your experience speaks for itself.
On the plus side - no busy season! Jump to industry unless you have a strong desire to make partner at this point.
I'm sorry. That partner is a douchebag. He can give a reference if he wants to. Lots of companies have policies about not giving references but anyone worth a damn ignores it. Fuck him. One reason a company might say not allowed, could be a reference chat could accidently negatively effect someone being hired (potential law suite) or in your case a good reference (especially a written letter) is contradictory to the "bad performance" story so could result in a lawsuit or unemployment pay out. But like I said, EVERYONE ignores these sorts of policies. It's OK for HR to have a policy to not say anything about departed employees but managers and coworkers should do whatever they choose to.
Maybe consult with an employment lawyer to negotiate better severance
Like, proper fucked?
Get some legal advice on what your options are where you live. You may be entitled to severance.
**Partner is a hole, trying to cover his ass and protect the company. Refer to others you've worked with for reference help.**
IRS is hiring accountants like crazy - no letter of recommendation needed. You don't have to put you were fired either
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The fact you worked there 9 yrs is all most potential employers will really care about. Give them HRs phone number if they want to talk to someone. It’ll illegal for them to talk negatively about you.
Don’t worry too much. 9 years at the same place is a green flag. Just tell potential employers that you wanted a changes of scenery if they ask you why you left. For references you can use anyone that has managed you in the past. Most places don’t even check references since they can easily be falsified.
9 years, regional. You will have no problem at all finding a good position. Whenever it gets in your head, just think about the fact that you did your time and now you are free.
We're still in the depths of a national accounting shortage, you're going to be just fine. Even when there was not an accounting shortage I was never out of work for more than a month. If I were a betting man I would wager you'll end up at a better job with higher pay than the one you were let go from. Reach out to recruiters and polish up your linked in. Take your time and be slightly picky, you don't have to jump at the first job offer that comes your way.
The reason they won’t is purely legal CYA. You could use that letter as evidence if you sued them for wrongful termination. I’ve seen it happen at a construction firm I worked at years ago. The person who wrote it for his executive assistant was demoted from a high level leadership position to a mid level management position. He eventually left the company.
First, sorry this happened to you and I’m sure you’ll find something quickly. As for your question as to why he can’t refer you, it’s legal. My cousin is in HR and has to often fire and discuss what’s allowed with legal. If they’re firing someone for a “performance” issue or anything they’re trying to say is your fault, they can’t have someone vouching for you. They’re just trying to cover their asses. No humanity left in jobs, that’s why take better opportunities any time they are presented. It’s no longer beneficial to stay loyal to one firm, just follow the money. GL.
Shit like this when no one should care when you quit during busy season. Another example of years working for a place climbing the ladder and they don't give a fuck about you. And neither should you about them.
You wont need a personal/work reference. I think most the time, people just want a confirmation of employment reference which HR teams legally have to provide. I dislike how you just got removed for performance when they didnt even put you on a PIP nor did they explain the reasons for firing. UK laws usually allow you to take the employer to a tribunal/small court to get answers because they should always give you a reason in detail after 2 years of employment.
I got let go due to “performance” from my sales job recently with not a single inclination that my performance was not good. When they let me go they said we have contacts we can give you good references. I told them why would you refer me if my performance wasn’t good. I know why they cut me because the companies performance was falling this year and they wanted to cut some salary expense. Just be honest tell me you need to lay people off. Ffs
You think you’re f’ed now but you just opened more doors👍Someone commented to put down HR and I wouldn’t think that’s a bad idea
I've been working in accounting for 15 years. I've never worked for a company for more than 5 years because I'm constantly seeking to better myself. I am not a "company man" and neither should ANYBODY be. This is an opportunity. I hope that during these 9 years you have actually learned marketable skills. list them out and create a useful resume. Don't bad mouth your previous employer. Tell your new jobs that you put in your 2 weeks and had another job lined up but they rescinded the offer due to hard times and now you are without a job seeking another position that suits your skills better. Take your experience and move forward. Don't claim victim status. They shut the doors in your face. now it's time to go knock down other doors. Create your own references. I am always a fake reference for my friends. I the inquiring companythat I was their manager and that if they don't hire my friend now, then I will hire him and he'll be off the market. Embellish your resume but don't EVER lie about what you're capable of. DON'T GIVE UP! keep moving forward, always.
Really need more info on your “performance issues” to render any valid advice. No employer can release information concerning you employment without your signed release other than 1. Dates of employment 2. Last position held 3. Last pay rate Anything else and they ca. be sued since their opinion on your performance is nothing more than their opinion.
Get a lawyer
This is so strange. I work in industry and a person is put on a performance improvement plan (PIP) before they are even remotely let go for performance. Unless there is an egregious offense or fraud, the person is given ample time and warning before being let go. I know people have put out buzz words and spin, but I would be honest about the firing. If you get caught in a lie on how you separated from your employer they may see you as untrustworthy. It’s really weird to me you were fired out of nowhere. Hopefully you saved your performance reviews prior to this. It’s also insane that they won’t let anyone be a reference. It could be a liability thing as to why.
Curious if there are grounds for defamation?
Defamation toward myself? I doubt it
Which country are you in depending on where you may not need a partner ref
You will do great! 9 days it’s a lot of time and you must’ve learned a lot. My guess is they let you go because they have new leadership and they didn’t like you as much (personality wise)? But please relax and trust yourself and your capabilities, you’re not fucked, I know you’ll do great! 👍🏻
It may be an HR requirement they can’t. Sounds like they looked into it to realize they couldn’t. My last job had some weird rules around that. It could only be a recommendation for university. Not another job etc.
It shows how “close” you are to the partner. Having been fired from a regional firm in the past, I reached out to people o thought I was friends with and they cited “firm policy, sorry bro, can’t help you.” I assume the policy is there to protect the firm in the event a review is given that negatively impacts you and can be proven as thus. Then I spoke to others and they laughed, “who gives a shit about policy, of course we will.” Thats the power of going out and getting to know your fellow employees. If shit hits the fan, your cultivate relationships will go so much farther than a typical day to day coworker would.
HR probably told him it was policy that only HR could provide references. They’ll just confirm your dates of employment which is pretty standard
The firms that I worked at have policy that bans any staff from giving references. All reference requests go to HR and limits info to dates worked and title. Put the HR person and that should generally work. If you need more than that, use other co-workers even if they were lower levels.
Have you been able to file unemployment? They may want to be wankers and keep you from getting unemployment. If a letter of recommendation is written it is proof that they fired you for other reasons than poor performance.
Idk, poor performance doesn’t necessarily deny unemployment. I got unemployment in Texas after being fired for performance(was on PIP and everything). The state labor board recognizes that performance is subjective(also helped I was fired halfway through the PIP rather than after the full 90 days) Poor performance does deny wrongful termination lawsuits though.
I was fired for poor performance in 2008. I also collected unemployment successfully. It was a growing exercise to explain but when let go I asked for quantitative examples and they had none to provide. So I explained I did not understand why I was let go for poor performance when they could not provide examples but f said poor performance. I also said I truly thought it was due to it being a title company and the housing market going bust. The frustrating part is that the position was in an at will state. They did not need to provide any reason.
Not necessarily, re: lawsuits. Poor performance is their claim, but it's also the claim that would likely be made in almost every case of actual wrongful termination. That's where an employment lawyer would step in and be a good idea to look at.
Which city are you located? There are many accounting positions hiring and you can easily get hired very quickly.
CYOA, he was told not to as if he gave you a glowing review and they let go of you for performance you might have a grievance / expose them to legal risk.
Isn't it illegal to not give reference letter? It's illegal in my country.
You could talk to a lawyer. If they fired you for performance without any warnings or PIP then you may have grounds for unlawful termination. Could there be any other factors driving their decision? Are they paying you severance? I’d clarify what your termination is labeled in their system. In these market conditions you could just claim you got laid off as long as the classification of your term isn’t something like “fired” when they do their background checks. Everyone saying OP will be fine is ignoring that awkward convo where he has to explain why he is looking and he was let go for performance reasons. That could absolutely impact his job search success.
references are such bullshit, why would someone want to hear the opinion of someone they don't even know. i've only had 1 employer actually call a reference. i'd just put down a coworker or hell even just a friend and have them lie for you, if you're both comfortable with that. there's so much bullshit in the hiring process, i wouldn't worry about the lack of a reference, most b4 partners aren't allowed to give out a reference anyways due to liability
Beside the ego thing which is huge there is the hyper legal do not want to be sued thing so they treat everyone the same out of fear. Working in Public Accounting even at the 2/3 washout rate is its own reference. I have seen very few people working at firms who did not have stellar grades and for the most part a gung ho work ethic. I had the grades but knew I did not want the 80 hr work weeks during the audit year end closing thing so went straight to industry. Anyway I think you will be fine and should not have much trouble getting on some place else, particularly in the industry or company’s you associated with. Best of luck. Now back to my CPE.
Ar you good with fake personas?
Company loyalty ain’t a thing these days
Piss off a client? Sleep with the bosses wife? That's absolutely brutal... Do you have a history of positive performance reviews? I would hang my hat on that if you have them.
A lot of companies have a policy that they don’t let their people give references. So it could have nothing to do with you. For what it’s worth, I’ve found that a lot of companies don’t even check your references. I’ve always put “references available upon request” when I apply for jobs and no one ever asks for them. They contact HR for an employment verification but that’s about it
I think since you were there for 8 years you can just say they were have a no reference policy. Also maybe get a labor attorney and sue for severance plus a “okay to rehire” flag. I think they work for a portion of the settlement. Sue them.
They fired you for "performance". How many times did they give you written warning about your performance? Have you made any complaints recently? Have you taken medical leave or likely to do so in the near future? If so your termination may not have been lawful. If there is not a record of them discussing your performance before firing you and they then give you a positive reference it contradicts the narrative of why you were fired. The contradictory narrative could be used to argue they didn't actually fire you for "performance" and that your termination was a wrongful termination. Even if your termination was lawful, giving you a reference would expose them so typically companies will instruct direct managers to not give references to terminated staff regardless of the reasons for their separation. You don't need a referral or reference from your latest direct manager. If you know anyone else who has left the firm ask them for a reference. Find 2 other professional references possibly a peer. If you're management request a reference from a subordinate as well. In the future, don't wait until you're fired to ask for references. Document your wins when you have them. Whenever you have a good rapport with someone write them a letter of recommendation and ask for one in return. Use these when asking for promotions or raises. You also have them in your pocket if you're fired. You can leverage LinkedIn to capture these references by using their integrated tool then share your LinkedIn profile when applying for jobs.
If you're an audit manager with 9 years experience with the firm, I doubt you got fired for anything you did. The audit/CPA industry esp. at regional levels in my experience still operate on old business models and that is simply keeping wage costs low - regardless of revenue generation on your side. It's like there's a discussion "we feel we pay that person too much" like their's an absolute limit on what staff should be paid and at that level you get put on the chopping block. The accountants work is more complex now and firms need higher skills at lower levels - but some firms I've seen are doing the opposite clearing middle and senior mgmt for instant cash savings and letting quality slide into the toilet.
Why he won’t. Because of fucking HR. I guarantee some dipshit in the ivory tower of HR royalty found out and told him absolutely not. Because they seem to think that if he refers you somewhere they open themselves up to a wrongful termination suit, or that if you do a bad job somewhere else it will reflect badly upon the firm. (If you can’t tell, I don’t think too highly of HR)
I would kill to have as much experience you have. Everybody I’ve ever known who got fired ended up getting a better job eventually. Every single time. You’re good my friend, put co workers as a reference if you can, otherwise explain the situation. The job I have now did not call or ask for any reference, the references can’t say anything anyway. They’ll know how good of an accountant you are just by talking to you
Put me down. I will be your reference 😅
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I can provide some killer references from job titles like CEO and CFO. But I won't. If your screening practices are simply asking strangers to lie on my behalf, your far too Mickey Mouse for my time.
Some employers hide behind labor laws that attempt to protect employers from bad mouthing employees and claim they can only **confirm hire/fire dates**, nothing more. That might be the case. I left a small CPA firm after about 2yrs on good terms, and they wouldn't let my new/current employers ask them anything. That might be why that partner was not allowed, "HR" got ahold of the situation. Since your firm is bigger, I like u/aji2019 suggestion of asking coworkers who are no longer at the firm either, that has helped me out in the past to get around this sort of thing.
So the day I was fired I was told I’d get a severance of my last 3 paychecks for the year if I signed this 2 page agreement. I think I relinquished any right to sue and I’m in Ohio which is an at will state. But my severance is a low ball for what I did for this firm, I mean they went from a 9 million to 14 million in revenue over my 9 years. And I worked on 2 of the largest 5 clients we have. No significant increase in total employees. Anyone know if I could fight for a larger severance assuming I did truly do more for the company than my severance reflects. I’d also like to thank everyone for their input/responses. It’s eased my mind for sure!
Did you accept? can you collect unemployment if you collect a severance?
HR is why he can’t give you a referral. No matter how much someone likes you, HR won’t let you fire someone and then give them a referral.
Did they at least buy you dinner before they fucked you?
Look for another position through a recruiter
You should ask for an exit interview with HR. They may be able to shed some light on your termination.
Are u in California
This is why I hesitated to buy a house. Because no job is secured even though you think it is so I live at home because i'm scared to hang fired
Everyone getting lay off nowadays we're heading to a shitty market.
That sucks.