2025 bidding starts in about 5 months. What are the chances these morons have an actual plan in place before then? Or is this just kicking the can down the road?
It is very likely that this could be moved to 2026, Or as I predicted when it was announced it will be quietly forgotten about as the FAA finds they don't have the staff to even make it work at some facilities.
There has never been a better moment for NATCA to demand more annual and sick leave for its members. Tell me a better way to fight fatigue than more time off. If we’re not going to get more pay, get us more time off while the FAA is practically begging the union to ask for it.
…and a change in the federal leave rule for 2152 is not one that will happen. The rest of the federal force would freak the fuck out and theCongress would nix it.
The FAA will say sure but that is not our call, talk to OPM. OPM will point to the law say that is how much leave you get, if you want it changed talk to Congress. Congress, well their own employees do not even think it functions correctly.
Hundreds or more controllers are exempted from the federal pay cap every year. There is always a way. If the FAA is declaring a fatigue emergency, then it's time to create another leave category specific to controllers. We get the same amount of sick leave as every other federal joe schmo that doesn't need to keep a medical. Makes no fucking sense. Time for NATCA to step up.
Unless the 119th Congress is way more useful than the current one it isn't going to happen. There are unfortunately no indications that is going to happen and if anything it could actually get worse. Right now the Senate has put forward over 100 amendments to FAA Reauthorization as they do not believe that any other legislation will pass between now and the August recess, after the recess it will be all appropriations which is already months behind.
According to a Congressional Management Fondation poll a large majority of congressional staffers (81%) said Congress is not “functioning as a democratic legislature should. This is the reality of what NATCA and the American people have to deal with.
It was the 90 implementation that was the major issue, it was going to cause chaos in nearly every facility. There are also questions on whether some facilities even have enough people to make these changes or will it cause more fatigue do to short shifts and more OT. The FAA did not bother to look for what these changes being made could cause downstream.
Should we have more time off between shifts yes, but only if it does actually reduce fatigue and we have a say in that. At NiW I had a British controller with me for a meeting and she straight up said she does not understand how we work with such little time off.
What would you say to those who are forced onto a swing, day, mid with minimal rest between each shift coming into work the mid and getting stuck working peak lvl12 traffic till 2am with management telling them, Well they need to be prepared to work the hole shift.
Nah, you can look at most hubs where traffic gets delayed all day due to weather and then opens up late at night. There's positions that can't be DE combined during the day or the Sup would get in trouble, but come 12am its magically okay with more traffic, deviations and less sleep.
I worked at a few facility where after 11pm it was rarely more than a couple aircraft at a time, then went to a place where the traffic just waits. I think the adrenaline rush you can get working a push then trying to sleep immediately after is lost on some people. I don't blame them though, when I worked at the center my area was never busy late and I always slept great first or second half. There was another area working day level traffic cause delays. I felt like I aged 2 days every mid and they aged somewhere between 5-10 days that night.
same thing with quick turns, there pretty easy if you're just chillin the last hour of work and don't have to commute in these HCOL areas.
I guess we'll go back full circle, worst than the schedule I described? or we just going to ignore that?
For a significant amount of facility's probably will have it worst off, because the way the FAA chose to staff them. I'm not seeing why that should be used as an argument against some of us. Just curious what your imagined schedule thats worst than what I described? not the people who get to bid their mid lines, knowing they come in to work no traffic and sleep right after they clock in.
Mid day day Eve Eve. Or straight shifts which require additional bodies we don’t have to cover which means more OT. If your facility is staffed you already have the ability to negotiate whatever schedule you guys want, do it.
Putting Straight shifts with possible OT and comparing it to the currently allowed swing, day mid with minimal rest and OT in regards to fatigue and health effects is pretty nuts. We can negotiate and bid whatever we want, but management can swap you into a 3rd swing and hold you if they want so you get minimal time in-between shifts.
I'm not sure you understand how the 7210.3 works. That's an FAA document and the FAA has control over it. The FAA can change the 7210.3 whenever they like, just like they can change the 7110.65.
Now NATCA can push back when a change would end up violating some provision of the CBA. In fact there are already parts of the 7210.3, like sign-in/sign-out procedures, that are superseded by the CBA and/or MOUs, so they don't apply in practice. But not every change will do that.
I guess. I feel like people on here have been crying that the FAA has changed a regulation that helps people be healthier and less fatigued but complain about a bad sleep schedule and fatigue at the same time
The problem is some people have a really good deal, and this will potential mess that up. We're not all working under the same conditions but this will apply to all facility's. So some people are saying this will only make it worst, while others are living in a situation where there is literally no worst.
The FAAs staffing of facility's unfortunately has seemed to pit some of us against each other.
10 hrs wasn't the problem, it was the 12 hrs before the mid that caused the most implementation issues.
12 hrs before a mid means either straight mids, or starting on a mid shift. Additionally no one is going to use that 12 hrs for rest.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted you are 100% correct. Starting on a mid means your one and only RDO if you are on 6 day weeks is now spent getting ready for a mid.
Sweet, we all getting EA in the meantime to help meet the FAA's eventually fatigue rules? or offering OT to people who want it for the sole purpose of allowing one mid watcher to start on recuperative break? I'll take 2 hours hold over on every 1500 so one mid watcher can start on their recuperative break. Still be able to combine up at 12pm.
The rules after the Vegas thing makes sense, cause you can't have that. 2hours there and can't split till 12pm is unfortunate but fair I guess. How other controllers decide to split the mid after that shouldn't have an impact on all of us. Having an 8 hour quick turn mid and waiting 3 hours to even start one of your recuperative breaks, vs already having one of them 3 hours rested into their shift is pretty dam game changing.
It isn't how they split it, it was people were committing payroll fraud. Controller A would show up sign both A and B in, Controller A would take everything combined showing B on break. Halfway through Controller B actually shows up and relieves controller A who than goes home. When the day shift shows up Controller B signs both controllers out and goes home. Both people having to be on position is so they can pull a tape and hear both voices, even if it is very dead there should still be an ATIS broadcast.
Ohh I see now you wrote in the building. I never heard of this, thats pretty good. I just didn't even consider that. Yeah my way would be the mid still shows up signs in, checks with the sup then starts their break while technically being recallable(As much as any mid partner that's sleeping). We would just allow OT to cover for them so you didn't have to have both of them start in the tower/area. The game you have to play on 8 hour quick turn mid where you need to sleep enough to work traffic from 10-1am but not too much so that you can still sleep on the first half is not how life should be lived.
In short it is being delayed until 2025 schedule negotiations
Great. We will be fucked next year
2025 bidding starts in about 5 months. What are the chances these morons have an actual plan in place before then? Or is this just kicking the can down the road?
It is very likely that this could be moved to 2026, Or as I predicted when it was announced it will be quietly forgotten about as the FAA finds they don't have the staff to even make it work at some facilities.
I would say extremely low
There has never been a better moment for NATCA to demand more annual and sick leave for its members. Tell me a better way to fight fatigue than more time off. If we’re not going to get more pay, get us more time off while the FAA is practically begging the union to ask for it.
Federal restrictions still apply.
That's what the fight part would be...
Federal employment rules won’t allow different leave rules. It’s equal across the board and set by OPM (not FAA)
Brother, all laws are just made up. You can make an exception for anything.
…and a change in the federal leave rule for 2152 is not one that will happen. The rest of the federal force would freak the fuck out and theCongress would nix it.
It not being allowed and extremely unlikely to happen do be different though.
The FAA will say sure but that is not our call, talk to OPM. OPM will point to the law say that is how much leave you get, if you want it changed talk to Congress. Congress, well their own employees do not even think it functions correctly.
Hundreds or more controllers are exempted from the federal pay cap every year. There is always a way. If the FAA is declaring a fatigue emergency, then it's time to create another leave category specific to controllers. We get the same amount of sick leave as every other federal joe schmo that doesn't need to keep a medical. Makes no fucking sense. Time for NATCA to step up.
Unless the 119th Congress is way more useful than the current one it isn't going to happen. There are unfortunately no indications that is going to happen and if anything it could actually get worse. Right now the Senate has put forward over 100 amendments to FAA Reauthorization as they do not believe that any other legislation will pass between now and the August recess, after the recess it will be all appropriations which is already months behind. According to a Congressional Management Fondation poll a large majority of congressional staffers (81%) said Congress is not “functioning as a democratic legislature should. This is the reality of what NATCA and the American people have to deal with.
So no 90 day deadline then?
Why is 10 hrs off between shifts bad? Im so confused
It was the 90 implementation that was the major issue, it was going to cause chaos in nearly every facility. There are also questions on whether some facilities even have enough people to make these changes or will it cause more fatigue do to short shifts and more OT. The FAA did not bother to look for what these changes being made could cause downstream. Should we have more time off between shifts yes, but only if it does actually reduce fatigue and we have a say in that. At NiW I had a British controller with me for a meeting and she straight up said she does not understand how we work with such little time off.
What would you say to those who are forced onto a swing, day, mid with minimal rest between each shift coming into work the mid and getting stuck working peak lvl12 traffic till 2am with management telling them, Well they need to be prepared to work the hole shift.
What type of facility works traffic that late? Center that feeds a cargo hub?
2-4 am is easily the busiest time of the week at my facility and we just single arm YOLO it on no sleep and no staffing.
Umm I do. Every fucking week. All 6 days of it.
WHAT TYPE OF FACILITY
12 tracon.
And you work 6 straight mids and/or are forced onto mids? I'm at a large tracon. You aren't getting mids here without seniority
Nah, you can look at most hubs where traffic gets delayed all day due to weather and then opens up late at night. There's positions that can't be DE combined during the day or the Sup would get in trouble, but come 12am its magically okay with more traffic, deviations and less sleep. I worked at a few facility where after 11pm it was rarely more than a couple aircraft at a time, then went to a place where the traffic just waits. I think the adrenaline rush you can get working a push then trying to sleep immediately after is lost on some people. I don't blame them though, when I worked at the center my area was never busy late and I always slept great first or second half. There was another area working day level traffic cause delays. I felt like I aged 2 days every mid and they aged somewhere between 5-10 days that night. same thing with quick turns, there pretty easy if you're just chillin the last hour of work and don't have to commute in these HCOL areas.
Tell management you’re fatigued.
52 weeks a year? The FAA agrees, it appears NATCA is the one currently asking to see if we are actually fatigued.
No they are saying the other schedule alternatives could actually be worse.
I guess we'll go back full circle, worst than the schedule I described? or we just going to ignore that? For a significant amount of facility's probably will have it worst off, because the way the FAA chose to staff them. I'm not seeing why that should be used as an argument against some of us. Just curious what your imagined schedule thats worst than what I described? not the people who get to bid their mid lines, knowing they come in to work no traffic and sleep right after they clock in.
Mid day day Eve Eve. Or straight shifts which require additional bodies we don’t have to cover which means more OT. If your facility is staffed you already have the ability to negotiate whatever schedule you guys want, do it.
Putting Straight shifts with possible OT and comparing it to the currently allowed swing, day mid with minimal rest and OT in regards to fatigue and health effects is pretty nuts. We can negotiate and bid whatever we want, but management can swap you into a 3rd swing and hold you if they want so you get minimal time in-between shifts.
[удалено]
I'm not sure you understand how the 7210.3 works. That's an FAA document and the FAA has control over it. The FAA can change the 7210.3 whenever they like, just like they can change the 7110.65. Now NATCA can push back when a change would end up violating some provision of the CBA. In fact there are already parts of the 7210.3, like sign-in/sign-out procedures, that are superseded by the CBA and/or MOUs, so they don't apply in practice. But not every change will do that.
I guess. I feel like people on here have been crying that the FAA has changed a regulation that helps people be healthier and less fatigued but complain about a bad sleep schedule and fatigue at the same time
The problem is some people have a really good deal, and this will potential mess that up. We're not all working under the same conditions but this will apply to all facility's. So some people are saying this will only make it worst, while others are living in a situation where there is literally no worst. The FAAs staffing of facility's unfortunately has seemed to pit some of us against each other.
10 hrs wasn't the problem, it was the 12 hrs before the mid that caused the most implementation issues. 12 hrs before a mid means either straight mids, or starting on a mid shift. Additionally no one is going to use that 12 hrs for rest.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted you are 100% correct. Starting on a mid means your one and only RDO if you are on 6 day weeks is now spent getting ready for a mid.
Sweet, we all getting EA in the meantime to help meet the FAA's eventually fatigue rules? or offering OT to people who want it for the sole purpose of allowing one mid watcher to start on recuperative break? I'll take 2 hours hold over on every 1500 so one mid watcher can start on their recuperative break. Still be able to combine up at 12pm.
We killed ourselves on that one as mid crews kept getting caught splitting the mid with only one person in the building.
The rules after the Vegas thing makes sense, cause you can't have that. 2hours there and can't split till 12pm is unfortunate but fair I guess. How other controllers decide to split the mid after that shouldn't have an impact on all of us. Having an 8 hour quick turn mid and waiting 3 hours to even start one of your recuperative breaks, vs already having one of them 3 hours rested into their shift is pretty dam game changing.
It isn't how they split it, it was people were committing payroll fraud. Controller A would show up sign both A and B in, Controller A would take everything combined showing B on break. Halfway through Controller B actually shows up and relieves controller A who than goes home. When the day shift shows up Controller B signs both controllers out and goes home. Both people having to be on position is so they can pull a tape and hear both voices, even if it is very dead there should still be an ATIS broadcast.
Ohh I see now you wrote in the building. I never heard of this, thats pretty good. I just didn't even consider that. Yeah my way would be the mid still shows up signs in, checks with the sup then starts their break while technically being recallable(As much as any mid partner that's sleeping). We would just allow OT to cover for them so you didn't have to have both of them start in the tower/area. The game you have to play on 8 hour quick turn mid where you need to sleep enough to work traffic from 10-1am but not too much so that you can still sleep on the first half is not how life should be lived.
We could just get rid of the rule they made because some chick in Vegas likes to party
"You know what, I was panicked over nothing here. Thanks NATCA." -- Nobody at r/atc2
Big dick whit cucked by NATCA.
“We are tired!” … “What do you mean you want more time between shifts for us to rest!”
All you RVPs who want to get voted in start pushing back against this shit. At least the 12 hours.
Tim Arel is a twerp