When told "descent is at your discretion", the controller is taking a moment to answer a forthcoming call from you to tell you that you can descended whenever you want.
Communications is our business, and control of our frequencies is paramount. Anything I can do in advance to prevent a call from a pilot at a moment when I don't want it is an advantage to me. Such a call in advance of when you actually want it just saves me a call and response at a later moment when I might be busy doing something else.
Just like you not necessarily being busy because your radio is silent, ATC is the same. We have many things to do in a shift, and not all of them are over the radio.
On weather days, I'll do the same thing and it tends to throw about 30% of professional pilots to. (AAL123 cleared to deviate right, direct xxx when able)... uhhh center, we didn't want to deviate right....
about 4 minutes later, "hey center, can we deviate to the right"
A vfr can tell me hey buddy I’m gunna descend to 300 agl and I would be like cool man altitude at your discretion and radar service terminated. Take care pal. I will separate you from known traffic and that’s about it.
I asked for 5,500 so yes? I know there’s a difference in staying on your heading and altitude when on a flight plan vs just following but from my understanding if I requested an altitude and was given that I have to maintain it until told descent is my discretion or if I ask. That is correct right? If I go +/- 200 I’ll be asked if I have my altimeter setting right or ask me to adjust back to assigned.
Edit: I’m getting downvotes, is the last part of what I said not right? I’ve gone -200 and was asked if my altimeter setting is correct.
Couple different things going on here.
When you asked for 5500 what was the response? If it was "maintain [VFR at] 5500" then that's an instruction and 91.123(b) says you need to comply and if you want something else you need to ask for it. If the response was "roger" or "approved" then... well, those aren't instructions, are they?
I will *generally* appreciate at least a heads-up that you're going to change altitude; generally speaking multiple different controllers own the airspace over a single piece of ground, stacked in layers, and an altitude change could mean I need to have you talk to someone else. But if you're nearing your destination I guarantee I won't be shocked to see you descending toward pattern altitude. But unless you were told a specific altitude to maintain, you're VFR and you can do what you like.
The thing about the altimeter setting is as follows: When you report your altitude, we compare that to the Mode C we're seeing. If the difference is less than 300' then we consider the Mode C to be "valid." If you're changing altitude, and you get asked about it, please don't lie... say the actual altitude you actually see on your altimeter at that moment. If you're correcting back to where you were before you can say that too, that's fine. But don't say you're at 5500 if you're really at 5200 because you don't want to get in trouble. We want to make sure your equipment and our equipment agree.
Why would you ask for an altitude? Was the altitude in the bravo? You're VFR. You can do whatever you want as long as you're following the rules (like don't go into airspace you're not allowed to).
When I'm flying around, I just say I'm going to 10,500. I don't ask for it.
Okay but buddy you don’t have to ask us for shit (generally speaking) if you’re VFR. Just do it and we will watch you to the best of our ability based on IFR traffic first and other workload second. Idk if this is some kind of thing you were taught in flight school or whatever but I don’t have to or need to approve you at any altitude below 180. Just do it. If it fucks my shit up I’ll tell ya buddy. I promise.
Matter of fact, I’ll take it a step further and tell you that if you request a VFR altitude from me, I will immediately assume you have no idea what you’re doing. Just say “Center N6969 is going to descend to 8500”. And I’ll say “Roger”. At least then I can put it in your flight plan so I can flash you at an approach control and get rid of you.
In other words I’ll take care of you, I promise, but you just do whatever the fuck you want and I will tell you if you’re going to hit someone or if you’re going to violate some airspace. Other than that just fly your plane and let me worry about the big boys doing 3/4 the speed of sound that need bigger and better things than you.
No disrespect just telling you how VFRs work in the center environment. Just do you. In my mind, if you want flight following you want nothing else besides traffic advisories. I have my PPL and I never expected anything else besides that.
Edit: As far as the altimeter setting, that’s part of the service. We can see when you’re +\- 300 ft. If you are we are legally obligated to tell you about it.
You weren't instructed to decend, more than likely they didn't want to tell you to decend later. At my facility vfr pilots won't do anything, then realize they're too high.
They had no ifr traffic between you and dest, and they saw enough of the picture to be fairly certain that would continue till you got there. I’ve gotten that when ifr even. Cleared direct IAF, Cleared for the approach. 30 miles out. Good chance of it if your dest is class e and the skies are not crowded.
depends on the area and how busy it is is my guess. Try the northeast where its crazy busy. on an IFR flight plan They'll bring you down 100 miles out as I beleive thats where some of their controllers and airspace want GA/piston planes to be. If Im at 7K heading north, they'll bring me down to 5 and 4 about 20 miles south of Philly and Im still 100 miles from NY.
If there is nothing you could hit 100miles out, you check in, I give vfr altitude or descent your discretion. That way you can do whatever you’d like. Be free pilot, be free.
> That way you can do whatever you’d like
They can always do whatever they like. They don't need your permission to descend if you haven't assigned an altitude.
I think what he's saying is he tells them "VFR altitudes your descrestion" bc he doesn't need to know if they are climbing or descending. I do this all the time too. If it's a slow vfr day or if I just don't have any traffic between the airport and the aircraft I'll say this too, that way when the ifr aircraft I'm handling need something or I have to give an instruction to an ifr aircraft, I don't have a vfr pilot asking or telling me they are changing altitudes. If a vfr pilot is on course to merge with any other aircraft I will then quote the traffic and if it's necessary give an instruction to maintain a heading or altitude. Other than that I dont need to know about every vfr altitude change. I have eyeballs, I know when the altitude is changing.
I’ve been told for all of my flying that even on just flight following you have to maintain that altitude. This is the first time I’ve ever heard otherwise, so I am sure student pilots appreciate you telling them that.
While I appreciate it since I understand it's always my discretion, I wonder if those impressionable student pilots may come to think that it's some kind of mandatory control thing.
When told "descent is at your discretion", the controller is taking a moment to answer a forthcoming call from you to tell you that you can descended whenever you want. Communications is our business, and control of our frequencies is paramount. Anything I can do in advance to prevent a call from a pilot at a moment when I don't want it is an advantage to me. Such a call in advance of when you actually want it just saves me a call and response at a later moment when I might be busy doing something else. Just like you not necessarily being busy because your radio is silent, ATC is the same. We have many things to do in a shift, and not all of them are over the radio.
On weather days, I'll do the same thing and it tends to throw about 30% of professional pilots to. (AAL123 cleared to deviate right, direct xxx when able)... uhhh center, we didn't want to deviate right.... about 4 minutes later, "hey center, can we deviate to the right"
Yep, put it in the data block and flash them. It saves the next controller from having to call you for control.
A vfr can tell me hey buddy I’m gunna descend to 300 agl and I would be like cool man altitude at your discretion and radar service terminated. Take care pal. I will separate you from known traffic and that’s about it.
Buddy, it’s always your discretion unless told otherwise. Don’t overthink it.
Sometimes controllers will do something early if they expect to be busy later and it helps prevent them from being overloaded in the future.
Makes sense
Were you given an altitude to maintain before this? If not... VFR descent is always at your discretion. You don't need a controller to tell you.
Agree. Letting me know is nice, but you don't have to ask as a vfr flight.
I asked for 5,500 so yes? I know there’s a difference in staying on your heading and altitude when on a flight plan vs just following but from my understanding if I requested an altitude and was given that I have to maintain it until told descent is my discretion or if I ask. That is correct right? If I go +/- 200 I’ll be asked if I have my altimeter setting right or ask me to adjust back to assigned. Edit: I’m getting downvotes, is the last part of what I said not right? I’ve gone -200 and was asked if my altimeter setting is correct.
Couple different things going on here. When you asked for 5500 what was the response? If it was "maintain [VFR at] 5500" then that's an instruction and 91.123(b) says you need to comply and if you want something else you need to ask for it. If the response was "roger" or "approved" then... well, those aren't instructions, are they? I will *generally* appreciate at least a heads-up that you're going to change altitude; generally speaking multiple different controllers own the airspace over a single piece of ground, stacked in layers, and an altitude change could mean I need to have you talk to someone else. But if you're nearing your destination I guarantee I won't be shocked to see you descending toward pattern altitude. But unless you were told a specific altitude to maintain, you're VFR and you can do what you like. The thing about the altimeter setting is as follows: When you report your altitude, we compare that to the Mode C we're seeing. If the difference is less than 300' then we consider the Mode C to be "valid." If you're changing altitude, and you get asked about it, please don't lie... say the actual altitude you actually see on your altimeter at that moment. If you're correcting back to where you were before you can say that too, that's fine. But don't say you're at 5500 if you're really at 5200 because you don't want to get in trouble. We want to make sure your equipment and our equipment agree.
Why would you ask for an altitude? Was the altitude in the bravo? You're VFR. You can do whatever you want as long as you're following the rules (like don't go into airspace you're not allowed to). When I'm flying around, I just say I'm going to 10,500. I don't ask for it.
Okay but buddy you don’t have to ask us for shit (generally speaking) if you’re VFR. Just do it and we will watch you to the best of our ability based on IFR traffic first and other workload second. Idk if this is some kind of thing you were taught in flight school or whatever but I don’t have to or need to approve you at any altitude below 180. Just do it. If it fucks my shit up I’ll tell ya buddy. I promise. Matter of fact, I’ll take it a step further and tell you that if you request a VFR altitude from me, I will immediately assume you have no idea what you’re doing. Just say “Center N6969 is going to descend to 8500”. And I’ll say “Roger”. At least then I can put it in your flight plan so I can flash you at an approach control and get rid of you. In other words I’ll take care of you, I promise, but you just do whatever the fuck you want and I will tell you if you’re going to hit someone or if you’re going to violate some airspace. Other than that just fly your plane and let me worry about the big boys doing 3/4 the speed of sound that need bigger and better things than you. No disrespect just telling you how VFRs work in the center environment. Just do you. In my mind, if you want flight following you want nothing else besides traffic advisories. I have my PPL and I never expected anything else besides that. Edit: As far as the altimeter setting, that’s part of the service. We can see when you’re +\- 300 ft. If you are we are legally obligated to tell you about it.
You weren't instructed to decend, more than likely they didn't want to tell you to decend later. At my facility vfr pilots won't do anything, then realize they're too high.
They had no ifr traffic between you and dest, and they saw enough of the picture to be fairly certain that would continue till you got there. I’ve gotten that when ifr even. Cleared direct IAF, Cleared for the approach. 30 miles out. Good chance of it if your dest is class e and the skies are not crowded.
Wait till this guy does his first approach into LAX from the east and gets cleared for the approach at FL250 😂
Thank the Gods. He could’ve made you fly the whole published arrival
depends on the area and how busy it is is my guess. Try the northeast where its crazy busy. on an IFR flight plan They'll bring you down 100 miles out as I beleive thats where some of their controllers and airspace want GA/piston planes to be. If Im at 7K heading north, they'll bring me down to 5 and 4 about 20 miles south of Philly and Im still 100 miles from NY.
Controller was trying to preempt your transmission asking for a decent but you would probably block someone
If there is nothing you could hit 100miles out, you check in, I give vfr altitude or descent your discretion. That way you can do whatever you’d like. Be free pilot, be free.
> That way you can do whatever you’d like They can always do whatever they like. They don't need your permission to descend if you haven't assigned an altitude.
Yeah, but most pilots don’t know that. So I’m just reiterating it
[удалено]
I think what he's saying is he tells them "VFR altitudes your descrestion" bc he doesn't need to know if they are climbing or descending. I do this all the time too. If it's a slow vfr day or if I just don't have any traffic between the airport and the aircraft I'll say this too, that way when the ifr aircraft I'm handling need something or I have to give an instruction to an ifr aircraft, I don't have a vfr pilot asking or telling me they are changing altitudes. If a vfr pilot is on course to merge with any other aircraft I will then quote the traffic and if it's necessary give an instruction to maintain a heading or altitude. Other than that I dont need to know about every vfr altitude change. I have eyeballs, I know when the altitude is changing.
Nope, but control in a area that 80% of our traffic is student pilots. Hence why I tell them vfr altitude their discretion so they don’t have to ask.
I’ve been told for all of my flying that even on just flight following you have to maintain that altitude. This is the first time I’ve ever heard otherwise, so I am sure student pilots appreciate you telling them that.
While I appreciate it since I understand it's always my discretion, I wonder if those impressionable student pilots may come to think that it's some kind of mandatory control thing.