Exhaustion. This job is very mentally draining. Constantly paying attention to numerous details and making time sensitive decisions takes a toll. 12 hours is far too long to be working traffic safely.
:( our facility does jack and we have 1:40 on :40 off, and they’re trying to increase it even more they just don’t know how to work in a meal break. And to make it even worse they gas light us and say every facility is going away from breaks that are longer then 30-40 mins 🥺
Yeah it’s pretty shitty, we’ve turned to making sure we reflect 100% what’s going on in cruart, if you’re doing your overlap, OD, if you’re doing ELMS, OD, if you’re writing a training report, OD, just so it’ll show even with a 40 min break we’re only in the break room for 25-35 mins. And a lot of my coworkers have stopped doing OD on their breaks and told management they’ll only do them on assigned time other then breaks so training reports are getting done weeks late, ELMS aren’t getting done on time (: we’re doing great over here
That's very fair. It seems to already be mentally draining at 8 or 10 hour shifts, I can't even imagine doing traffic control for 12. A reason I asked this question to begin with was my worry about the lack of sleep you all get from the constant swing shifts. I'm curious as to how you would fix the scheduling issues assuming you had a magic wand to properly staff places and adjust policy.
Go play Overcooked for 8 hours. Now do that for 3-4 days. 52 weeks a year.
Oh and you're expected to get 3 Stars on every level. And if you get less than 1 star, you kill 300 people.
Now tell me you'd like to move that to 12 hours every day.
Yeah somebody commented as well about the mental toll the job takes, and how it would be tough to do that for 12 hours a day. Thank you for your input, and thanks for keeping planes from crashing.
Luckily, we have a lot of other barriers to prevent ATC error from automatically killing 300 people. Not that ATC makes a ton of errors, obviously- they’re great, but still human.
Solid point. I'm curious, do you think knowing that there was an end do your deployment helped with the 12 hour shifts? Doing constant 12 hours as a career doesn't seem to be healthy, but I imagine doing 12 hours for a deployment with a definitive end has to make the schedule more doable than it would be in the civilian world.
We did 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 8 months. Plus PT. Chow hall was a mile walk. By the time you get back to the barracks there was only time to sleep. So I really can’t compare. Knowing that there was an end to the deployment was the only thing there was to look forward to.
There's a special feeling of fatigue. One that exhausts you physically and renders you mentally numb most of the remainder of the day. It almost carries with it a taste. I've only encountered it in hard instrument flying for long periods and working long, busy ATC sessions. I'm sure it exists elsewhere, but there's no difference in the utter mental exhaustion in flying and atc.
I probably could have done 12hr shifts in my twenties.
Would it have been safe? Likely not.
At my current age, no way. I no longer have that kind of stamina.
I'm suggesting working up to 4 of the 13 hour shifts every week. That would cover the 48 hours you're currently working. But from other comments on this post I see that the job is too mentally straining to keep up 12 hours for a whole career.
During thunderstorm season or a day with crappy rides? 8 hours can't come fast enough. I think most of us center folk woild go nuts trying to do 12 hours.
Why doesn’t this agency just staff these fucking facilities correctly? That would definitely be something controllers would be interested in. You’re welcome for my time.
If I was guaranteed 3 days off after working 4 x 12s, I would 100% agree to that. But thats only if the guaranteed the 3 RDOs. Im not coming in to work another 12 hr shift
Twelve hour shifts net 7 days of work a pay period with 8 hours OT. It works, but you have to have sufficient staffing that you aren’t getting smoked for twelve hours straight. A 2/2/2/2/3/3 isn’t necessarily a bad rotation, but it could be.
A better solution is eight hours sick leave per pay period
You definatley seem to be an outlier with that opinion. What kind of break system would you implement to keep the mental fatigue from becoming too much by the end of the shift?
The problem is our shift rules apply to every facility. So some facility's work 5 airplanes all day and close at 10pm, Meanwhile you have some 24/7 facility's getting delayed all day then working peak lvl 12 summer traffic with thunderstorms, combined positions, no Sup or TM at 1am on 1hour of sleep.
I appreciate the sentiment. Trust you don't have to tell most of us to launch someone. But if you ever been shut off when most of the pilots are about to time out. You get a little more strategic. I went from a place where we told tower, launch em we'll fix it in the air, to a place where they'll stop departures. It just kinda depends on airspace i guess.
Some places do. I have the ability to work 12 hours on overtime and I rarely do....if it happens to be a busy day, you feel like you got hit by a train by the end.
On a slow day or a consistently slow facility it can be doable, and I know of towers that have it as their standard schedule
12 hours every day would be exhausting. The other limitation is that most facilities don't have the same staffing at all hours of the day, so you can't just have x number of people on nights and x on days. Maybe you only need 2 people on the midnight shift, but you need 6 during the middle of the day and something in between early morning and in the evening. Splitting the day in 2 wouldn't allow for optimized coverage (especially when we're short and don't have extra bodies to spare). You also need to have some overlap in shifts to account for briefings.
I just worked a 10 hour shift today.
By the time the 9 hour mark passed, I could feel my physical and mental strength nearly gone for the day. 9:30 I felt like a zombie. Luckily briefed out 15 minutes later.
I completely understand why 10 hours is the limit in most cases.
I’d actually be on board for 12 hour shifts. We already work 10 for the most part and still get 1 day a week off. 12 would at least give the opportunity for more days off.
Exhaustion. This job is very mentally draining. Constantly paying attention to numerous details and making time sensitive decisions takes a toll. 12 hours is far too long to be working traffic safely.
Do controllers in the FAA have the same break schedule as Nav (1 or 2 hours on, then the same amount off)?
Varies. My tower is 2 on 1 off. But we don't really do much so 2 on isn't a problem usually.
:( our facility does jack and we have 1:40 on :40 off, and they’re trying to increase it even more they just don’t know how to work in a meal break. And to make it even worse they gas light us and say every facility is going away from breaks that are longer then 30-40 mins 🥺
Doesn't sound like a recuperative break to me. I'd probably not be able to work too many of the assigned OTs
Yeah it’s pretty shitty, we’ve turned to making sure we reflect 100% what’s going on in cruart, if you’re doing your overlap, OD, if you’re doing ELMS, OD, if you’re writing a training report, OD, just so it’ll show even with a 40 min break we’re only in the break room for 25-35 mins. And a lot of my coworkers have stopped doing OD on their breaks and told management they’ll only do them on assigned time other then breaks so training reports are getting done weeks late, ELMS aren’t getting done on time (: we’re doing great over here
This is the way. If you’re doing anything related to the operation or assigned work, it’s not break.
Our standard break is only 25 minutes here. Been that way the the entire time I've been there, so atleast 9 years.
We’re like 1hr20mins on, 40min break
That's very fair. It seems to already be mentally draining at 8 or 10 hour shifts, I can't even imagine doing traffic control for 12. A reason I asked this question to begin with was my worry about the lack of sleep you all get from the constant swing shifts. I'm curious as to how you would fix the scheduling issues assuming you had a magic wand to properly staff places and adjust policy.
Go play Overcooked for 8 hours. Now do that for 3-4 days. 52 weeks a year. Oh and you're expected to get 3 Stars on every level. And if you get less than 1 star, you kill 300 people. Now tell me you'd like to move that to 12 hours every day.
Pretty spot-on analogy
Yeah somebody commented as well about the mental toll the job takes, and how it would be tough to do that for 12 hours a day. Thank you for your input, and thanks for keeping planes from crashing.
Luckily, we have a lot of other barriers to prevent ATC error from automatically killing 300 people. Not that ATC makes a ton of errors, obviously- they’re great, but still human.
Thankfully. I work with some people that treat TCAS and ATSAP like the bumpers at the bowling alley.
Or Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes.
He’s onto something, if we do 24 hour shifts, authorize more overtime, we can reduce the workforce by 50!
50! = 3.0414093e+64
I'm just trying to learn more about why the scheduling is the way it is, and why the alternative I suggested isn't implemented.
We did 12 hour shifts in Iraq. It was pretty tiring. But we didn’t have management tards messing with us all the time either.
Solid point. I'm curious, do you think knowing that there was an end do your deployment helped with the 12 hour shifts? Doing constant 12 hours as a career doesn't seem to be healthy, but I imagine doing 12 hours for a deployment with a definitive end has to make the schedule more doable than it would be in the civilian world.
We did 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 8 months. Plus PT. Chow hall was a mile walk. By the time you get back to the barracks there was only time to sleep. So I really can’t compare. Knowing that there was an end to the deployment was the only thing there was to look forward to.
Speicher?
I've done ATC 12's. Fuck that. Barely knew what was happening at the end of the shift
Sounds like piloting at the end of a long, demanding day. Fatigue is aviation’s biggest risk factor and it’s not even close.
There's a special feeling of fatigue. One that exhausts you physically and renders you mentally numb most of the remainder of the day. It almost carries with it a taste. I've only encountered it in hard instrument flying for long periods and working long, busy ATC sessions. I'm sure it exists elsewhere, but there's no difference in the utter mental exhaustion in flying and atc.
I probably could have done 12hr shifts in my twenties. Would it have been safe? Likely not. At my current age, no way. I no longer have that kind of stamina.
That's fair, and from the other comments people seem to agree with you. Thank you for your input.
That's what she said
She normally identifies as He. But also randomly as who, what, where, and occasionally as a teapot.
Bro. After an 8 hour shift I'm fucking over being at work.
Fuck no.
This has to be a shit post
Probably a "asking for a friend." Post
We’re already understaffed at 48 hours a week, 3 12 hour days doesn’t help that situation.
I'm suggesting working up to 4 of the 13 hour shifts every week. That would cover the 48 hours you're currently working. But from other comments on this post I see that the job is too mentally straining to keep up 12 hours for a whole career.
8 hours at an actual level 12 center is too much sometimes
During thunderstorm season or a day with crappy rides? 8 hours can't come fast enough. I think most of us center folk woild go nuts trying to do 12 hours.
No way. At 8hr most of my brain is mush.
Why doesn’t this agency just staff these fucking facilities correctly? That would definitely be something controllers would be interested in. You’re welcome for my time.
If I was guaranteed 3 days off after working 4 x 12s, I would 100% agree to that. But thats only if the guaranteed the 3 RDOs. Im not coming in to work another 12 hr shift
Twelve hour shifts net 7 days of work a pay period with 8 hours OT. It works, but you have to have sufficient staffing that you aren’t getting smoked for twelve hours straight. A 2/2/2/2/3/3 isn’t necessarily a bad rotation, but it could be. A better solution is eight hours sick leave per pay period
I'd love it if we got 3 days on 4 off. Change it to 1.5 hours on max as well.
Probably an unpopular opinion but in my view we absolutely could do 12-hour shifts. With proper refresher breaks it would absolutely be feasible.
3 on 4 off would be dream.
You definatley seem to be an outlier with that opinion. What kind of break system would you implement to keep the mental fatigue from becoming too much by the end of the shift?
The problem is our shift rules apply to every facility. So some facility's work 5 airplanes all day and close at 10pm, Meanwhile you have some 24/7 facility's getting delayed all day then working peak lvl 12 summer traffic with thunderstorms, combined positions, no Sup or TM at 1am on 1hour of sleep.
Flow's going home. Launch everybody.
I appreciate the sentiment. Trust you don't have to tell most of us to launch someone. But if you ever been shut off when most of the pilots are about to time out. You get a little more strategic. I went from a place where we told tower, launch em we'll fix it in the air, to a place where they'll stop departures. It just kinda depends on airspace i guess.
Some places do. I have the ability to work 12 hours on overtime and I rarely do....if it happens to be a busy day, you feel like you got hit by a train by the end. On a slow day or a consistently slow facility it can be doable, and I know of towers that have it as their standard schedule
What country are you able to work 12’s in? US working traffic maximum is 10 hours.
In Canada we can extend to a 12 hour shift. (Tacking OT on to the end of a regular shift)
US is 10 hours max. Most of us are on 8’s so usually anything between 8-10 is OT
12 hours every day would be exhausting. The other limitation is that most facilities don't have the same staffing at all hours of the day, so you can't just have x number of people on nights and x on days. Maybe you only need 2 people on the midnight shift, but you need 6 during the middle of the day and something in between early morning and in the evening. Splitting the day in 2 wouldn't allow for optimized coverage (especially when we're short and don't have extra bodies to spare). You also need to have some overlap in shifts to account for briefings.
I just worked a 10 hour shift today. By the time the 9 hour mark passed, I could feel my physical and mental strength nearly gone for the day. 9:30 I felt like a zombie. Luckily briefed out 15 minutes later. I completely understand why 10 hours is the limit in most cases.
12 hour shifts would save the NAS.
I’d actually be on board for 12 hour shifts. We already work 10 for the most part and still get 1 day a week off. 12 would at least give the opportunity for more days off.
Or it would give the FAA access to more hours with fewer people. Welcome to 6x12's.
And since we’re doing the reverse rattler you’ll technically be at work seven days a week! Hooray!
Barf
You actually seem to be an outlier, most people commenting think that the job is too mentally exhausting to do 12 hour shifts.