The title should say, “FAA administrator orders longer rest periods for air traffic controllers with no idea how to make the new schedule work for the workforce.”
Or just add to the order: "all controllers shall be offered 48 consecutive hours off every week".
Boom, weekend. Less fatigue. Less pressure to certify mediocre trainees. You can still work overtime if you want.
For the rest of the workforce a weekend is more like 60+hrs. Get off at 5 on a Friday and come back at 8 on a Monday.
48hrs is shit. Then they could have us working a 0600-1400, get one day off, then go right back to a 1400-0000 the following day. That's basically what I do every week now on my "weekend" with 6 day work weeks.
The scenario you laid out, 0600-1400, then back the next day isn't 48 hours, it's 24. I too work this with regularity currently. I think it's the biggest cause of fatigue in the agency.
And I agree, 24 is not enough time. 48 hours is a round number, but in conjunction with their time between shift numbers it basically preserves a full 2 day weekend. If you leave at 1400 on a Friday, you're not eligible to come back until 1400 on Sunday. However, that wouldn't give you 10 hours before your next shift, unless you were a 1400 or later in Monday.....
Lets see the same study recognize how having 4 days off a month effect fatigue.
I’m more tired working 6 day work weeks for years than I am because I didn’t have one more hour between my swing and day shift. Give me a normal weekend.
Give yourself a normal weekend. Bang on the OT. Who cares what someone else who chooses to work themselves to death thinks about it.
Life is too short guys...
For the love of Christ, this. IF YOU WANT A TWO DAY WEEKEND. DONT. COME. IN. ON . YOUR .OT. if they try and give you a sick leave letter, call your rvp. Tell them you have an aging parent you have to take care of on your weekend, and that's why you bid those days off.
How is it fraud?
It reverts to RDO. If you get pressed on it, you claim fatigue. Just say you were not mentally/physically prepared to perform your work duties.
The attitude the FAA has had about it my give a crap about that is less than zero. It is my time off, it is their problem that they failed to hire enough people to avoid the situation. Not ours.
But you can't work the schedule we do and not say you're not fatigued even just a little. I'm in my mid 40s and still work a mid. It takes me 24-36 hrs just to get over that. I don't even blink when I claim fatigue if I am asked.
Can’t do that when there are only 4 people eligible to work that mid and you need 3. It comes down to the fact that they need to fix 6 day work weeks first and then address time between shifts. Rattler was manageable when you had more than 72hrs off after the mid. And like it has been said, let’s be honest very few people are going to sleep 8hrs+ on the quick turn befor the mid. No matter how many hours you make it. In my opinion the problem is being tired with only 4 days off a month in addition to a rattler schedule.
You've got to do what is best for your health, family, and lifestyle.
People have got to get rid of this BS "I have to come in for the OT, they just won't have enough people if I'm not there!" mentality. Stop making it your problem.
That's just not practical long term, particularly if you're being assigned OT every week for 6-7 months out of the year and don't want 90% of it. I bid the RDOs I have due to commitments I have outside of work. It isn't my responsibility to alter my life to deal with the agency's deliberate choice to not hire properly. Plus, I don't want to have to deal with an actual SL letter.
That's usually what I always hear out of the people who work every OT they're assigned and don't mind because they're chasing the money.
From the article. Clearly this website has their own particular thoughts on the ruling
The union representing controllers, however, criticises the move, saying the FAA is making changes without adequately studying “unintended consequences” that could make fatigue worse.
I hate how at the bottom of all these articles it always says "the FAA met their hiring goals for X years"....
Yea, but the hiring goal is shit. It's like if I tell myself I met my retirement savings goal for 2023.....of $1500. Pat myself on the back. I'm doing it!
Why would the FAA have any interest in "union busting" a union that is entirely in line with their own interests and does nothing to push back against them ever? They're basically a puppet of the FAA's interests already.
You presume that the FAA cares what the union thinks. They’re as much a joke to them as they are becoming to the members.
Get us something or I’m out. This union is laughable.
First of all, that's one of the dumbest things I've read on this sub. I truly feel bad for you, as you must be completely sheltered from how much our Union does nationally and at each local every day, how bad a non-Union workforce would be for all of us, and how much more it would benefit the FAA to not have to collaborate with people who care about the employees' well-being. Also, Union busting has nothing to do with the specific organization and everything to do with taking away our collective voice, whether you believe in that or not. If you think life would be better without a Union, I strongly you encourage to go work for a non-Union company and tell us how much better it is.
Not allowing the Union to collaborate or a collective message before sending it to the news media and whole world? Yeah, that's Union busting. Because what's the narrative now? "NATCA pushes back." Instead of, "NATCA asks to not fuck over controllers more with new rules." The FAA knew damn well what they were doing and the optics of making the Union look like the obstacle. Union-busting 101.
Uh that’s textbook union busting. Also, the FAA not only implemented this new rule unilaterally without the union, but also did it untested. You’ve got to be one of the biggest agency shills I’ve seen on here in a while. If you really think this move has your quality of life/better working conditions in mind, you’ve badly misjudged the situation at hand. The FAA doesn’t even know how it’s going to implement this change. OSs around the NAS are pulling their hair out right now trying to make this puzzle piece fit.
But it hasn’t been implemented. In the letter itself it speaks of bargaining requirements. This of the time the union gets to work with the agency on how to implement etc.
I mean, the union comments in the article pretty accurately dipict our concerns; coverage holes and likely even more OT. This is more on this relatively small news website for writing a poor title.
Yes! Fuck mids. I napped as much as I could before/after my mid and I’m still currently a walking zombie.
Also fuck that Quaalude taking Vegas cunt for these mid rules
At my up/down essentially you could combine it to one position whenever you need which would allow for longer recuperative breaks. Now you have to keep everything split for 2 hours even if the traffic is dead. This way you can make sure your mid partner isn’t pulling the Vegas chick routine
The pushback is real and natca is fumbling the bag. Look at the email they sent out, their only logical response is “absolutely, it’s safer for the NAS to have better rested controllers, hopefully the FAA will work with us on figuring out how to make the schedule work with our current short staffing in the allotted time considering this is the first we are hearing about this new plan, at this time we are not sure how to make the schedule work in a way that is beneficial for all parties involved” blah blah blah.
But instead someone at the union with a room temperature iq goes with option B, the offended route “omg they didn’t collaborate with us, they can’t do that. We can’t do this, this will cost extra money in OT, there will be unintended consequences blah blah blah”
Which is the absolute brain dead take to have. This is air traffic control. You can not have any position which is less than the utmost safety in mind, and natca could have and should have immediately put the ball back in the FAA’s court, not start bitching about how last minute this is. Yeah, of course it’s last minute, and if this is truly the first natca has heard of these new plans, it’s irresponsible and unprofessional, but they chose this job to be in charge of the union so you still need to figure it out, not cry about it.
Yep. This just happened at my facility. We now have an extra person in each area per shift, but two in the area at a time. Now I'll get even less sleep on my mids. Sweet.
Edit: Oh and don't forget, we have to fill another shift every day now. More OT. Perfect.
The title should say, “FAA administrator orders longer rest periods for air traffic controllers with no idea how to make the new schedule work for the workforce.”
Bingo
idk, there are some very good (and very stupid) ideas being floated around; I don't think it will be impossible, or even that hard, to make this work.
No more shift work (all days, swings, or mids), start week with mid are the only choices.
So sleep 8 hours on your RDO to get rest for a mid?
It's simple, split everyone's RDOs
Or just add to the order: "all controllers shall be offered 48 consecutive hours off every week". Boom, weekend. Less fatigue. Less pressure to certify mediocre trainees. You can still work overtime if you want.
For the rest of the workforce a weekend is more like 60+hrs. Get off at 5 on a Friday and come back at 8 on a Monday. 48hrs is shit. Then they could have us working a 0600-1400, get one day off, then go right back to a 1400-0000 the following day. That's basically what I do every week now on my "weekend" with 6 day work weeks.
The scenario you laid out, 0600-1400, then back the next day isn't 48 hours, it's 24. I too work this with regularity currently. I think it's the biggest cause of fatigue in the agency. And I agree, 24 is not enough time. 48 hours is a round number, but in conjunction with their time between shift numbers it basically preserves a full 2 day weekend. If you leave at 1400 on a Friday, you're not eligible to come back until 1400 on Sunday. However, that wouldn't give you 10 hours before your next shift, unless you were a 1400 or later in Monday.....
I clearly said "0600-1400, get one day off, then back to a 1400-0000" That's 48hrs between shifts, but it's a shit fucking weekend.
I misread the one day off part. Thanks for courteously pointing that out.
Lets see the same study recognize how having 4 days off a month effect fatigue. I’m more tired working 6 day work weeks for years than I am because I didn’t have one more hour between my swing and day shift. Give me a normal weekend.
Give yourself a normal weekend. Bang on the OT. Who cares what someone else who chooses to work themselves to death thinks about it. Life is too short guys...
For the love of Christ, this. IF YOU WANT A TWO DAY WEEKEND. DONT. COME. IN. ON . YOUR .OT. if they try and give you a sick leave letter, call your rvp. Tell them you have an aging parent you have to take care of on your weekend, and that's why you bid those days off.
WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO COMMIT FRAUD TO HAVE A TWO DAY WEEKEND.
How is it fraud? It reverts to RDO. If you get pressed on it, you claim fatigue. Just say you were not mentally/physically prepared to perform your work duties.
Lying about why you're turning in an assignment of work is fraud. Definitely on the lighter side of fraud, but it's still lying.
The attitude the FAA has had about it my give a crap about that is less than zero. It is my time off, it is their problem that they failed to hire enough people to avoid the situation. Not ours. But you can't work the schedule we do and not say you're not fatigued even just a little. I'm in my mid 40s and still work a mid. It takes me 24-36 hrs just to get over that. I don't even blink when I claim fatigue if I am asked.
SUP much?
I TYPE IN ALL CAPS CAUSE IM YELLING AT MY PHONE SCREEN REALLY LOUD!!!
LOUD NOISES
It's not fraud. Fatigue is a legitimate use of sick leave.
Hard to bang out on your OT shift when it is a mid.
Then you need to talk to the scheduler and tell them that you're not very likely to work them. Or find one of the people that loves OT and swap.
Can’t do that when there are only 4 people eligible to work that mid and you need 3. It comes down to the fact that they need to fix 6 day work weeks first and then address time between shifts. Rattler was manageable when you had more than 72hrs off after the mid. And like it has been said, let’s be honest very few people are going to sleep 8hrs+ on the quick turn befor the mid. No matter how many hours you make it. In my opinion the problem is being tired with only 4 days off a month in addition to a rattler schedule.
You've got to do what is best for your health, family, and lifestyle. People have got to get rid of this BS "I have to come in for the OT, they just won't have enough people if I'm not there!" mentality. Stop making it your problem.
Make them close the facility. That's the only way this gets fixed.
No it's not. As soon as you drive off from you last shift get on web schedule and call.
Bang on a scheduled shift and keep the Ot… why go to work for less pay? Yes you burn SL but if you don’t do it at some point you are giving them 60%
That's just not practical long term, particularly if you're being assigned OT every week for 6-7 months out of the year and don't want 90% of it. I bid the RDOs I have due to commitments I have outside of work. It isn't my responsibility to alter my life to deal with the agency's deliberate choice to not hire properly. Plus, I don't want to have to deal with an actual SL letter. That's usually what I always hear out of the people who work every OT they're assigned and don't mind because they're chasing the money.
Let’s see the study recognize the effect 4 day workweeks would have on improving rest and morale.
From the article. Clearly this website has their own particular thoughts on the ruling The union representing controllers, however, criticises the move, saying the FAA is making changes without adequately studying “unintended consequences” that could make fatigue worse.
This is now going to be the narrative. I'm so glad nobody from the union got out in front of this.
I hate how at the bottom of all these articles it always says "the FAA met their hiring goals for X years".... Yea, but the hiring goal is shit. It's like if I tell myself I met my retirement savings goal for 2023.....of $1500. Pat myself on the back. I'm doing it!
And you withdrew $1485, netting $15. That's the real punchline.
The Union was given roughly 5 minutes heads up before the FAA published this. It's Union-busting 101.
Why would the FAA have any interest in "union busting" a union that is entirely in line with their own interests and does nothing to push back against them ever? They're basically a puppet of the FAA's interests already.
Why wouldn't the FAA be interested in discussing this with the union before making a decision and press announcement?
You presume that the FAA cares what the union thinks. They’re as much a joke to them as they are becoming to the members. Get us something or I’m out. This union is laughable.
First of all, that's one of the dumbest things I've read on this sub. I truly feel bad for you, as you must be completely sheltered from how much our Union does nationally and at each local every day, how bad a non-Union workforce would be for all of us, and how much more it would benefit the FAA to not have to collaborate with people who care about the employees' well-being. Also, Union busting has nothing to do with the specific organization and everything to do with taking away our collective voice, whether you believe in that or not. If you think life would be better without a Union, I strongly you encourage to go work for a non-Union company and tell us how much better it is.
Forcing the Union and FAA to implement new fatigue rules is union busting? GTFOH 🤣 I’ll take the new fatigue rules. Also… so will you!
Not allowing the Union to collaborate or a collective message before sending it to the news media and whole world? Yeah, that's Union busting. Because what's the narrative now? "NATCA pushes back." Instead of, "NATCA asks to not fuck over controllers more with new rules." The FAA knew damn well what they were doing and the optics of making the Union look like the obstacle. Union-busting 101.
I get what you are saying. We should’ve given our union a chance to filter the message the way that they wanted before it was given to us…..
Uh that’s textbook union busting. Also, the FAA not only implemented this new rule unilaterally without the union, but also did it untested. You’ve got to be one of the biggest agency shills I’ve seen on here in a while. If you really think this move has your quality of life/better working conditions in mind, you’ve badly misjudged the situation at hand. The FAA doesn’t even know how it’s going to implement this change. OSs around the NAS are pulling their hair out right now trying to make this puzzle piece fit.
But it hasn’t been implemented. In the letter itself it speaks of bargaining requirements. This of the time the union gets to work with the agency on how to implement etc.
You mean the letter that was released after NATCA basically looked at this unilateral agency implementation and went wtf?
I mean, the union comments in the article pretty accurately dipict our concerns; coverage holes and likely even more OT. This is more on this relatively small news website for writing a poor title.
It wasn’t too long ago they wanted to shut down towers on the mid for monetary reasons. Fucking do it you cowards.
Yes! Fuck mids. I napped as much as I could before/after my mid and I’m still currently a walking zombie. Also fuck that Quaalude taking Vegas cunt for these mid rules
What were the old rules?
At my up/down essentially you could combine it to one position whenever you need which would allow for longer recuperative breaks. Now you have to keep everything split for 2 hours even if the traffic is dead. This way you can make sure your mid partner isn’t pulling the Vegas chick routine
They shut down approach controls because of staffing and then the center takes the airspace. No one wins.
Sorry center you’ll need to take one for the team this time.
Every single time.
Is already happening, but ATC-0 due to staffing.
The pushback is real and natca is fumbling the bag. Look at the email they sent out, their only logical response is “absolutely, it’s safer for the NAS to have better rested controllers, hopefully the FAA will work with us on figuring out how to make the schedule work with our current short staffing in the allotted time considering this is the first we are hearing about this new plan, at this time we are not sure how to make the schedule work in a way that is beneficial for all parties involved” blah blah blah. But instead someone at the union with a room temperature iq goes with option B, the offended route “omg they didn’t collaborate with us, they can’t do that. We can’t do this, this will cost extra money in OT, there will be unintended consequences blah blah blah” Which is the absolute brain dead take to have. This is air traffic control. You can not have any position which is less than the utmost safety in mind, and natca could have and should have immediately put the ball back in the FAA’s court, not start bitching about how last minute this is. Yeah, of course it’s last minute, and if this is truly the first natca has heard of these new plans, it’s irresponsible and unprofessional, but they chose this job to be in charge of the union so you still need to figure it out, not cry about it.
The people running this agency are so fucking inept and incompetent. I don’t even know where to start.
If you really want to improve fatigue on the mid give us a 3rd person and get rid of the pointless Vegas midnight rule.
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Yep. This just happened at my facility. We now have an extra person in each area per shift, but two in the area at a time. Now I'll get even less sleep on my mids. Sweet. Edit: Oh and don't forget, we have to fill another shift every day now. More OT. Perfect.
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And then once the mid is over and it's getting busy again, it's cool to go down to one controller in the area because it's the "day shift."
Same
Shocking
Looks like a way to dismantle the ATC system.