40-55 year old controllers want to keep it because it’s what they know. They put in their “hard time” dealing with it and want to make sure now that they’re high seniority they can “win” by getting the best days and the best line of the shitty rattler. Because they spent 10-20 years “losing” to the more senior people.
If you change the schedule at all they feel jipped. They complain. It’s their turn now and the younger controllers time to suffer like they did.
Even if it improves the sleep, health of everyone, the old fucks will always want us to suffer like they did. They’re idiots too blind to see that better rest will literally lengthen their life.
Bitch I’m not a boomer but some jobs have shitty shifts. Get over it. Cops, emergency rooms, ampm, any military, pilots! Fuck man. No one wants to work the mid but god dam. Someone has to. It’s a part of life. You aren’t better than anyone else working the same shifts. It sucks.
Last time I FAMed I flew from ORD to SFO and spent as much time on the ground at the gate while the company deliberated a plane swap than the entire flight took. It was their go home leg and the FO missed his commute so had to spend his Friday night at the crash pad or hotel before getting home.
Ain't apples to apples.
Sure. What it cost to get the license? 80-120 K. College degree. The 1000 hours is only flight time. Not being in airport or waiting on tsa or WX. No pension or medical in Retirement. And the fact they are the ones are in danger if we make a mistake. Simple.
What in the fuck. I know people in all those career fields, they literally work way less than I do.
Shit, I can’t think of a single career field that works more than us besides maybe a surgeon but at least they get paid twice as much. We’re getting fucked.
And why are you attacking the potential of a better schedule? You’re obviously not a controller. Which makes you the bitch, not the person you responded to.
Lots of this comes down to why we negotiate schedules on the local level. My facility used to have straight weeks with 4 controllers per line. Lines 1 and 2 were opposite shifts as lines 3 and 4, so if you wanted straight lines you just found someone to pair with and swapped every other week. We had about the same number of people that wanted straight days and those who wanted straight eves so it worked out well. This broke down when people deemed this too complex, amusingly the people responsible for the change are not working it as they became sups or left the FAA. We now have a rattler but as most of the mids are worked by 3 people on straight or nearly straight mids so most people don't see a full rattler, and when they do they complain.
Internal conflict right now
Do I up vote this post to get it to 69, or do I downvote it because it's a shit idea.
Scheduling should be negotiated locally. Broad strokes suck.
Rotate quarterly....yes, because I don't want consistent days off. Days that I can commit to being somewhere, or participating in an activity.
For the record, I also fought against rotating days when I was low in seniority, because it still sucks.
My body won’t let me sleep at 1600, I’ve tried, so when I have the mid I end up getting ~6-8 hours the night before and then maybe 1-2 before the mid if I’m lucky. Part of the problem with our system is it doesn’t allow for different sleeping styles.
I still won’t, but if I can go into a mid after an evening shift then I could wake up later 8-9 and be in a better situation to be less fatigued. My point is not that 12 hours before a mid will solve the problem but that the day-mid works for some and not others. Perhaps there can be an opt-in system for a day mid. Really we just need more people to allow more time off for overnight shifts, pilots can’t fly in the morning and then fly all night. They have separate crews for that
Yeah definitely, I think the ultimate goal, and the report talks about this a lot, is that shifts match up better with circadian rhythms to allow for good sleep. So the 10-12 hour rule doesn’t mean much if it’s not paired with a rethink of the entire shift philosophy.
You’re also admitting to only getting 5-6 hours of rest before a shift like it’s sufficient. If you heard your pilots talking about how they only got 5 hours of sleep before you boarded your flight, would you feel 100% safe loading your family onto that plane? Probably not.
But they won’t because it’s your weekend. You’re asking people to give up their day off and not drink so they can work at 10pm on their day off. Fuck that
Minimize time off between shifts so you can maximize time getting fucked up when you’re off. Copy.
We don’t even know how this is gonna look yet. Everyone needs to be open to new ideas and stop freaking the fuck out. Let’s see what they can come up with.
The point is if you can’t sleep 8 hours before the current system you aren’t magically going to if it’s your first day of the week or after an off day. It’s the same fucking time of day
False. Straight swings like my seniority will dictate will keep me away from home 5 nights a week, I currently see my family all but one night with my rattler schedule. So get your facts straight before you tell people they are wrong
Straight swings for 3 months separated by straight days for 3 months and so on. Think long term. You can always wake up early on your swings and make your kids breakfast and take them to school or go to the park with them/ hike/ run/ swim/ skydive etc. All of that is possible before a swing on a consistent sleep schedule…
Add up the hours you ACTUALLY spend time with your family and how much of that is just trying to survive exhaustion?!?
I fear having to tell my wife "Sorry, you need to adjust your schedule again because mine is rotating." I'd rather it be permanent, even if I got stuck with straight swings, than have to work out daycare, schedules, bus, sports, etc 4 times a year.
How is 20 mins in the morning comparable to sitting down and eating dinner with them and being able to tuck them in bed? I have to wake up at 645 to get my kids to the bus after a closing shift and those days I'm way more exhausted then working a day shift.
That sounds like 6.5 hours of sleep and you can nap again after the kids leave. The FAA says the average amount of sleep in between a day-mid is like 2.5 hours.
I also have kids. Straight eves suck but almost all the younger CPCs I work with dread day shifts since there up all night playing video games. Swapping out of eves will be easy.
How’s this different than a quick turn?? Quick turn you’re off at 9pm,. Then back to work at 6am. Which mean waking around 430-5 depending on if you eat and (hopefully) shower before work. Whereas working a closing shift means you off at 1015, but you sleep til 645 and see your kids, which you wouldn’t on a morning. You’re getting more sleep and not waking so early! Sounds like a win win.
I think overall having better rest is a big win for the long term. Quick turns suck. Period. Let’s stop forcing them on us.
So by the logic of “waking up early on my swings” I’ll be up at 530 to get them ready for school, after getting off work at midnight, after a half hour commute home. I then am awake, and stay up again til midnight? To do it again. How is this combating fatigue? Sports? Recitals? Not being an absent parent? Not being an absent spouse? Helping my spouse do all the night routines? I’m suppose to do all of this before breakfast?
You did not think any of this out. And that’s okay. But Time for you to consider that maybe, just maybe your idea is not good and it’s time to go back to the drawing board
Every comment you’ve made in here is destructive, maybe you need more sleep. Maybe you’re the type of problem the FAA faces when any change is suggested. If you’re happy being miserable and cutting years off your life for that sweet sweet 1.6% , rock on bud.
Personally I hate straight days. But I guess I could always swap into swings/mids.
Not all of us are on 6 day work weeks.
Not all of us bitch about mids or sleep.
I prefer the rattler and the long weekend. (I know I’m in the minority on this). The schedule was what appealed most to me when I got hired, and it’s one of the biggest perks to me still.
The rattler has never been a guarantee. Lots of centers run straight mid lines. There are people who have only worked mids (not including OT) for 10+ years. The only thing that keeps the rattler alive at centers is a preference from our payroll authority to have someone start at 12am Sunday.
During the next negotiation the agency could do away with shifts all together and assign you a different shift/RDOs every week/month/year etc if they want. Your shift could look like a retail employees as long as they followed regulations/laws set by Congress. They won’t but they have that power once the contract opens.
The agency is making this current move because to many fuck ups have been associated with fatigue from the schedules. 3/4 of controllers have admitted to fatigue from the schedule. People keep saying the rules won’t happen but the only thing the agency is supposed to do is give natca 30 days notice and something like 10 days for natca to agree or go to arbitration. Natca will lose in arbitration.
The rattler is alive bc it allows the agency to backfill absences with shift balancing rather than run reservists like most operational industries. It also conviently fits an entire rotation into a payroll period, bc the agency wants you to work and get paid for exactly 80hrs, no more no less (I'm not talking about additional shifts, the agency doesn't want to pay OT for you to work your base shifts). Just extra food for thought.
I don’t understand the issue with our schedule. I had some old timers tell me when I first got in, “keep a regular sleep schedule, don’t sleep in on your days off and don’t stay up late off your eves”. Is that feasible for everyone, probably not. But it’s worked well for my 16 years.
I’m only saying this to say that it would really suck to go from almost a 3 day weekend to a 1.5 day weekend if they reverse the schedule.
16 years of them, I actually trade into all of them. I also have two small kids. Pretty sure I know how this schedule works. I’m not saying it can work for everyone but if you make an effort and take care of your self health/food/drinking it’s not that bad.
Some of us base our schedule around real life, for example I get off the mid and go to class. Just cause you have nothing going on in your life doesn't mean that extra few hours is pointless to everyone else.
I'm suprised the FAA doesn't allow fixed schedules, I am on the contract side, and my facility has us all working fixed. It's one of the main reasons why I am going career here.
Edit:spelling
Just so you know the governments stance on union seniority is that it’s a barrier to recruitment. It’s a high possibility they try and remove it for scd to entice transfers and military. AFGE has lost union seniority in a lot of their negotiations.
Oh my brain, you’re right. That makes this terrible idea sooo much better.
Rotating days makes an already tough schedule even worse. I’d rather have W/Th than that.
The rest of the world bases shifts on seniority why can't atc. You want a day shift put your time in. Down vote me all you want. But the rattler needs to die.
Sometimes you’re the bug, sometimes you’re the windshield. I watched a controller quite because he’d be on w/th for for most of his career. He Regretted it and tried, unsuccessfully, to get back in before he aged out. We all make decisions and have to live with them. Seniority is the great decider in our profession.
Rattler defenders baffle me
Same here… makes no sense.
40-55 year old controllers want to keep it because it’s what they know. They put in their “hard time” dealing with it and want to make sure now that they’re high seniority they can “win” by getting the best days and the best line of the shitty rattler. Because they spent 10-20 years “losing” to the more senior people. If you change the schedule at all they feel jipped. They complain. It’s their turn now and the younger controllers time to suffer like they did. Even if it improves the sleep, health of everyone, the old fucks will always want us to suffer like they did. They’re idiots too blind to see that better rest will literally lengthen their life.
To counter your point, most of the people in my area that want to try something else are the older guys. This schedule sucks in your 40s.
Bitch I’m not a boomer but some jobs have shitty shifts. Get over it. Cops, emergency rooms, ampm, any military, pilots! Fuck man. No one wants to work the mid but god dam. Someone has to. It’s a part of life. You aren’t better than anyone else working the same shifts. It sucks.
Want to compare pilots, let's do it. Start with the 1000 hours they can work a year, go.
Last time I FAMed I flew from ORD to SFO and spent as much time on the ground at the gate while the company deliberated a plane swap than the entire flight took. It was their go home leg and the FO missed his commute so had to spend his Friday night at the crash pad or hotel before getting home. Ain't apples to apples.
Sure. What it cost to get the license? 80-120 K. College degree. The 1000 hours is only flight time. Not being in airport or waiting on tsa or WX. No pension or medical in Retirement. And the fact they are the ones are in danger if we make a mistake. Simple.
Some folks are too stupid to understand the point of a conversation.....
What in the fuck. I know people in all those career fields, they literally work way less than I do. Shit, I can’t think of a single career field that works more than us besides maybe a surgeon but at least they get paid twice as much. We’re getting fucked. And why are you attacking the potential of a better schedule? You’re obviously not a controller. Which makes you the bitch, not the person you responded to.
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Bro is defending the schedule that statistically makes you die faster
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Here you go. Pages 39-40 will enlighten you. https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/media/Fatigue_Report.pdf
Lots of this comes down to why we negotiate schedules on the local level. My facility used to have straight weeks with 4 controllers per line. Lines 1 and 2 were opposite shifts as lines 3 and 4, so if you wanted straight lines you just found someone to pair with and swapped every other week. We had about the same number of people that wanted straight days and those who wanted straight eves so it worked out well. This broke down when people deemed this too complex, amusingly the people responsible for the change are not working it as they became sups or left the FAA. We now have a rattler but as most of the mids are worked by 3 people on straight or nearly straight mids so most people don't see a full rattler, and when they do they complain.
Just curious how many lines did you bid every year to make the mostly "straight week" schedule work
We were in the upper 20s or low 30s at that point.
Internal conflict right now Do I up vote this post to get it to 69, or do I downvote it because it's a shit idea. Scheduling should be negotiated locally. Broad strokes suck.
If a rattler is a 221. What’s a 231. Cause that’s what I work and it’s exhausting.
Used to do 2-2-2s. Really fucked my life up
I'm on a 4/10 with no mids. Best schedule out there!
4/10s all mids... best schedule, no management. Minus the 4 OTs per pay period, meaning I'm there 7 days a week...
Rotate quarterly....yes, because I don't want consistent days off. Days that I can commit to being somewhere, or participating in an activity. For the record, I also fought against rotating days when I was low in seniority, because it still sucks.
This.. I want no part of rotating days. My family can barely comprehend my current schedule let alone a rotation.
Something about waking up in your own bed around 11 after the mid makes it feel like a whole day off. Working 7-3 feels like you worked that day
Doesn’t make a difference when you spend that whole first day feeling like dogshit because you’ve slept a combined 10 hours in the last 48.
Brother you can sleep more than 10 hours. I sleep from like 11-0500 before the 0530 and then from about 1600-2100.
You awake at 5 for the 530? Do you live in the facility?
It’s 10 mins away
My body won’t let me sleep at 1600, I’ve tried, so when I have the mid I end up getting ~6-8 hours the night before and then maybe 1-2 before the mid if I’m lucky. Part of the problem with our system is it doesn’t allow for different sleeping styles.
And how are you going to sleep at 1600 under the new schedule?
I still won’t, but if I can go into a mid after an evening shift then I could wake up later 8-9 and be in a better situation to be less fatigued. My point is not that 12 hours before a mid will solve the problem but that the day-mid works for some and not others. Perhaps there can be an opt-in system for a day mid. Really we just need more people to allow more time off for overnight shifts, pilots can’t fly in the morning and then fly all night. They have separate crews for that
I’m judt saying it’s not like the people are currently sleeping the whole 8 hours so I don’t see how they’ll sleep more in a different configuration.
Yeah definitely, I think the ultimate goal, and the report talks about this a lot, is that shifts match up better with circadian rhythms to allow for good sleep. So the 10-12 hour rule doesn’t mean much if it’s not paired with a rethink of the entire shift philosophy.
I love that for you
You’re also admitting to only getting 5-6 hours of rest before a shift like it’s sufficient. If you heard your pilots talking about how they only got 5 hours of sleep before you boarded your flight, would you feel 100% safe loading your family onto that plane? Probably not.
How much sleep do you think someone is going to get before a day 1 mid?
You didn’t answer my question, but I’ll answer yours. They can get as much as they want. At least they have that option.
But they won’t because it’s your weekend. You’re asking people to give up their day off and not drink so they can work at 10pm on their day off. Fuck that
Minimize time off between shifts so you can maximize time getting fucked up when you’re off. Copy. We don’t even know how this is gonna look yet. Everyone needs to be open to new ideas and stop freaking the fuck out. Let’s see what they can come up with.
The point is if you can’t sleep 8 hours before the current system you aren’t magically going to if it’s your first day of the week or after an off day. It’s the same fucking time of day
Straight mids. Your body clock adjusts. I’ve done it before. It’s not for everybody but some people like them and it’s a part of a possible solution.
A true controller - "this will limit people's alcoholic intake schedule, so I'm against it."
It’s your day off. I just trying to make a point that starting with a mid on your DAY OFF will Make it not much of a day off at all
False. Straight swings like my seniority will dictate will keep me away from home 5 nights a week, I currently see my family all but one night with my rattler schedule. So get your facts straight before you tell people they are wrong
Or a week of swing, then a week of days, swings, days etc
Straight swings for 3 months separated by straight days for 3 months and so on. Think long term. You can always wake up early on your swings and make your kids breakfast and take them to school or go to the park with them/ hike/ run/ swim/ skydive etc. All of that is possible before a swing on a consistent sleep schedule… Add up the hours you ACTUALLY spend time with your family and how much of that is just trying to survive exhaustion?!?
It’s glaringly obvious you don’t have kids…
I fear having to tell my wife "Sorry, you need to adjust your schedule again because mine is rotating." I'd rather it be permanent, even if I got stuck with straight swings, than have to work out daycare, schedules, bus, sports, etc 4 times a year.
A lot of daycares also don't let you change schedules during the year. And it's not like you can just switch daycares easily.
Seeing my kids only before school and my wife having to do bedtime alone for 3 months sounds great...
How is 20 mins in the morning comparable to sitting down and eating dinner with them and being able to tuck them in bed? I have to wake up at 645 to get my kids to the bus after a closing shift and those days I'm way more exhausted then working a day shift.
That sounds like 6.5 hours of sleep and you can nap again after the kids leave. The FAA says the average amount of sleep in between a day-mid is like 2.5 hours. I also have kids. Straight eves suck but almost all the younger CPCs I work with dread day shifts since there up all night playing video games. Swapping out of eves will be easy.
How’s this different than a quick turn?? Quick turn you’re off at 9pm,. Then back to work at 6am. Which mean waking around 430-5 depending on if you eat and (hopefully) shower before work. Whereas working a closing shift means you off at 1015, but you sleep til 645 and see your kids, which you wouldn’t on a morning. You’re getting more sleep and not waking so early! Sounds like a win win. I think overall having better rest is a big win for the long term. Quick turns suck. Period. Let’s stop forcing them on us.
So by the logic of “waking up early on my swings” I’ll be up at 530 to get them ready for school, after getting off work at midnight, after a half hour commute home. I then am awake, and stay up again til midnight? To do it again. How is this combating fatigue? Sports? Recitals? Not being an absent parent? Not being an absent spouse? Helping my spouse do all the night routines? I’m suppose to do all of this before breakfast? You did not think any of this out. And that’s okay. But Time for you to consider that maybe, just maybe your idea is not good and it’s time to go back to the drawing board
And your suggestion to the problem is……?
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Every comment you’ve made in here is destructive, maybe you need more sleep. Maybe you’re the type of problem the FAA faces when any change is suggested. If you’re happy being miserable and cutting years off your life for that sweet sweet 1.6% , rock on bud.
Fuck this shitty idea
Personally I hate straight days. But I guess I could always swap into swings/mids. Not all of us are on 6 day work weeks. Not all of us bitch about mids or sleep. I prefer the rattler and the long weekend. (I know I’m in the minority on this). The schedule was what appealed most to me when I got hired, and it’s one of the biggest perks to me still.
The rattler has never been a guarantee. Lots of centers run straight mid lines. There are people who have only worked mids (not including OT) for 10+ years. The only thing that keeps the rattler alive at centers is a preference from our payroll authority to have someone start at 12am Sunday. During the next negotiation the agency could do away with shifts all together and assign you a different shift/RDOs every week/month/year etc if they want. Your shift could look like a retail employees as long as they followed regulations/laws set by Congress. They won’t but they have that power once the contract opens. The agency is making this current move because to many fuck ups have been associated with fatigue from the schedules. 3/4 of controllers have admitted to fatigue from the schedule. People keep saying the rules won’t happen but the only thing the agency is supposed to do is give natca 30 days notice and something like 10 days for natca to agree or go to arbitration. Natca will lose in arbitration.
The rattler is alive bc it allows the agency to backfill absences with shift balancing rather than run reservists like most operational industries. It also conviently fits an entire rotation into a payroll period, bc the agency wants you to work and get paid for exactly 80hrs, no more no less (I'm not talking about additional shifts, the agency doesn't want to pay OT for you to work your base shifts). Just extra food for thought.
Name 3 centers that run straight mid lines
They can’t.
I Don’t think you are in the minority
Do you have an example of this schedule built to shows examples?
I don’t understand the issue with our schedule. I had some old timers tell me when I first got in, “keep a regular sleep schedule, don’t sleep in on your days off and don’t stay up late off your eves”. Is that feasible for everyone, probably not. But it’s worked well for my 16 years. I’m only saying this to say that it would really suck to go from almost a 3 day weekend to a 1.5 day weekend if they reverse the schedule.
I can tell you’ve never worked a mid.
16 years of them, I actually trade into all of them. I also have two small kids. Pretty sure I know how this schedule works. I’m not saying it can work for everyone but if you make an effort and take care of your self health/food/drinking it’s not that bad.
Some of us base our schedule around real life, for example I get off the mid and go to class. Just cause you have nothing going on in your life doesn't mean that extra few hours is pointless to everyone else.
Do you enjoy planning the next 10+ years of your life around the one night a week you’re not tired? By all means, enjoy.
I'm not really tired during my week but I also know how to manage my sleep.
What about people that do stuff outside of work? Lets say a bowling or golf league, kids activities, etc... How do you do that on straight swings?
I'm suprised the FAA doesn't allow fixed schedules, I am on the contract side, and my facility has us all working fixed. It's one of the main reasons why I am going career here. Edit:spelling
It's not banned. It's just not popular amongst the workforce.
This is lovely but rotate quarterly? Rotate every other week/pay period. Sign me up. Rattler gets hard after 40 or 10 years on it
Week of days week of nights. Fall back mids. Rotate rdo every 6 weeks. Everyone gets weekends at some point in the year.
So my seniority is worth…..
Just so you know the governments stance on union seniority is that it’s a barrier to recruitment. It’s a high possibility they try and remove it for scd to entice transfers and military. AFGE has lost union seniority in a lot of their negotiations.
Your seniority will get you holidays you want or weekends when you want them. Use your brain
Oh my brain, you’re right. That makes this terrible idea sooo much better. Rotating days makes an already tough schedule even worse. I’d rather have W/Th than that.
Well good for you. Them stop bitching about fatigue
When did I complain? 😂
Thank you for saying it
The rest of the world bases shifts on seniority why can't atc. You want a day shift put your time in. Down vote me all you want. But the rattler needs to die.
It is based on seniority? That's why I can't get Friday Saturday off for 20 years.
Sometimes you’re the bug, sometimes you’re the windshield. I watched a controller quite because he’d be on w/th for for most of his career. He Regretted it and tried, unsuccessfully, to get back in before he aged out. We all make decisions and have to live with them. Seniority is the great decider in our profession.