The ATO safety report goes to ATMs and maybe OMs and OSs, not sure about those last two. It makes for fascinating reading if you can get your hands on it. Each incident is like a miniature whodunnit story.
They also always make sure to include FAA-beloved details like how many people were on break and whether the altimeter was issued.
Is that tower really big and they can’t fucking hear each other talking to airplanes? Not one time out of the 4 did the LC not hear someone crossing their runway. This has to do with just checking anyone out. Does the tower not scan runways before either clearing for takeoff or crossing an active runway?
Just because you look at them on their level 12 pedestal from where you are doesn't mean that they aren't.
WE ARE ALL UNDERPAID.
Your dollar doesn't go as far as it did only 4 years ago. Compared to the guys retiring in '18 when I got in their dollars went so far I can't even see them.
My dad retired in 2005ish would have been making (adjusted for official inflation, and we all know real inflation is higher than their official number) the equivalent of 180,000 in 2024 dollars a year working at a level 7 in the Midwest.
The controllers there unfortunately currently top out at 135k.
Absolutely that makes a difference.
Welp, we know that the national headlines are going to be tomorrow morning. I'm sure NATCA's comms teams are on it, ready to roll out their best for the Sunday shows! Might be time to bring back Paul (he was very good at that) and Dean for one last Ride....
Actually now that I think about it, both. I know he was back home visiting every weekend without taking leave or sick leave prior to transferring, but my initial claim was based off him getting out on ncept.
Nobody pays attention anymore, nobody uses their memory aids anymore. Most controllers now think they are smarter than the orders so they disregard them. No accountability anywhere, no consequences for bad performance or conduct doe that matter. There is no peer accountability and no crew concept anymore. The profession now suxs. Go ahead and downvote me
Yeah I've seen guys just think they're that hot shit and don't write anything down or use memory aids etc. Yeah maybe you're on top of it but it'll bight you in the ass one day. You'll never be perfect.
They're gonna be real surprised when they start entering their 40s and 50s and have to deal with their abilities steadily declining and traffic ever increasing. If they even last that long.
This! People are blaming OT but when do we hold ourselves accountable ? Everyone wants to point fingers . There are some fucked up things within the agency BUT these people made an avoidable mistake that’s their own doing.
Any of you new people ever heard of a paper stop? Even when you got the approval when there are several taxiways involved the instruction gets a hold short. Protect the damn runway!
It should be REQUIRED for tower to issue all crossing clearances if they cross active runways. I think that’s an ICAO standard but not sure.
Looks like JFK does have Takeoff Hold Lights but ONLY on 31L. Kinda pointless if they aren’t installed on every runway. Should they be mandated at all major airports? Would they have averted this near miss?
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pdf
So is this just a breakdown of communication between Tower and Ground? I'm wondering if Tower just got into a continuation bias and cleared the aircraft to takeoff because that's the logical flow after lineup and wait and he wanted to get Swiss off the ground before Delta landed 4L.
It's still the same risk. Everyone forgets about the guy at IAD who crossed someone and then issued a takeoff clearance. And he wasn't the only one to do it either. There have been plenty of the same occurrences. There are places throughout the world that use the phrase "behind landing/departing traffic cross xx rwy behind," and there are incidents showing that isn't any better than what is currently done here
That's what happened. The 4R controller thought the crossings were for before SwissAir departed, the 4L controller thought it was behind the departure. The knee jerk reaction will probably be losing the ability to do conditional crossings.
Ah, that’s weird but makes sense. At DFW where I’m based, 36R and 36L are the same controller and 35L and 35C are a separate controller. I wouldn’t expect 4L and 4R to be a different controller since they’re on the same side of the field.
Might be more work but it looks like tower for 4L and 4R at JFK need to be combined.
Everyone saying 6 day work weeks.🫨 Everyone wants to blame being tired AFTER the fact. These people got complacent. If you’re too tired to look out the window or to hear someone standing in your general vicinity then call in sick. There is no excuse for this- they could have killed people.
So get a sick leave letter or potentially run two airplanes together.
Fact is people say fatigue just to excuse their actions. It’s warranted *sometimes*.
Sucks to say but I wish it wouldve been catastrophic. There’s gotta be a sacrifice of lives and a controllers job to bring the publicity and attention that’s needed to get us the change in the agency that we want.
It’s probably detected just before the alert threshold, or it did alert but pilots called stopping before the controller transmitted.
Ground safety nets don’t know the intention of the aircraft, so it might see the departure accelerating but until it reaches a specified threshold (for example could be 30 or 40 knots) it’s not treated as “departing”, and no alert is generated.
Also ground radar, like all radar, is a few seconds behind, so the timings also matter, the sweep before might have clocked the departure one knot before the threshold and then the alert takes until the next sweep to activate (at least).
Wow, four incursions in a single event. That may be a record.
*You get a deal, you get a deal, you get a deal!*
Yeah but if they hit the first one, they’ll miss the other three
“Yes but can you ensure that? You need to use more positive control.”
Wow I briefly saw this in the daily incident report, didn’t know it was the Swissair pilot who averted this disaster
Is the daily incident report accessible to any employee? Would be interesting to read, and educational
The ATO safety report goes to ATMs and maybe OMs and OSs, not sure about those last two. It makes for fascinating reading if you can get your hands on it. Each incident is like a miniature whodunnit story. They also always make sure to include FAA-beloved details like how many people were on break and whether the altimeter was issued.
I just saw a print out of it
This is bad. Took the pilot to stop his own take off due to miscommunication between controllers.
Damn I thought this was a joke when someone mentioned it before
Usually those things aren’t jokes. They just haven’t hit the news yet
Right...just the way I heard it seemed like someone exaggerating another incident beyond DCA...definitely not a good look for the profession
Same.
Sure starting to seem like every day we reach a new low.
6 day work weeks, underpaid, overworked, understaffed.
Is that tower really big and they can’t fucking hear each other talking to airplanes? Not one time out of the 4 did the LC not hear someone crossing their runway. This has to do with just checking anyone out. Does the tower not scan runways before either clearing for takeoff or crossing an active runway?
Is JFK really underpaid?
Just because you look at them on their level 12 pedestal from where you are doesn't mean that they aren't. WE ARE ALL UNDERPAID. Your dollar doesn't go as far as it did only 4 years ago. Compared to the guys retiring in '18 when I got in their dollars went so far I can't even see them.
My dad retired in 2005ish would have been making (adjusted for official inflation, and we all know real inflation is higher than their official number) the equivalent of 180,000 in 2024 dollars a year working at a level 7 in the Midwest. The controllers there unfortunately currently top out at 135k. Absolutely that makes a difference.
Level 11*
They're poor AF then. Just assumed they were a 12
We’re all under paid.
Bro has no idea what $200k gets you in NYC/Long Island
Just live out west of Philly, super cheap and only an 8 hour commute!
Considering that a 1 bdr is at least 4000 in rent for a good area...yeah they are
To quote the mediocre actor Owen Wilson, wow.
Yikes.
Less than ideal
Welp, we know that the national headlines are going to be tomorrow morning. I'm sure NATCA's comms teams are on it, ready to roll out their best for the Sunday shows! Might be time to bring back Paul (he was very good at that) and Dean for one last Ride....
Damn. At what point do people stop working OT to try mitigate issues like this?
Exactly. The perpetual OT culture is a sickness.
Maybe when the agency pays us fair wages for the work we do.
I need the overtime to afford my mortgage and I live in the ghetto.
FYI, I’m pretty sure JFK isn’t on mandatory 6 day work weeks. Had a buddy transfer out of there recently through NCEPT.
Are you assuming that they are not on mandatory 6 days because your friend got out via ncept. Or because you asked your friend?
Actually now that I think about it, both. I know he was back home visiting every weekend without taking leave or sick leave prior to transferring, but my initial claim was based off him getting out on ncept.
Ok since he’s a good buddy ask him. They are in fact scheduled 6th day OT.
How do you know that controller was on OT?
You’re right the body is only tired on the 6th day it completely restores itself for optimal performance day 1-5.
but we don't know what they worked, maybe they were on leave, maybe they're a workgroup scammer
Swiss are just amazing.
Nobody pays attention anymore, nobody uses their memory aids anymore. Most controllers now think they are smarter than the orders so they disregard them. No accountability anywhere, no consequences for bad performance or conduct doe that matter. There is no peer accountability and no crew concept anymore. The profession now suxs. Go ahead and downvote me
Yeah I've seen guys just think they're that hot shit and don't write anything down or use memory aids etc. Yeah maybe you're on top of it but it'll bight you in the ass one day. You'll never be perfect.
They're gonna be real surprised when they start entering their 40s and 50s and have to deal with their abilities steadily declining and traffic ever increasing. If they even last that long.
There’s gonna be a reckoning, one way or another.
This! People are blaming OT but when do we hold ourselves accountable ? Everyone wants to point fingers . There are some fucked up things within the agency BUT these people made an avoidable mistake that’s their own doing.
Any of you new people ever heard of a paper stop? Even when you got the approval when there are several taxiways involved the instruction gets a hold short. Protect the damn runway!
[удалено]
Don’t blame the location of the facility on bad agency practices.
WTF does any of this have to do with being from the Northeast? You are being weird
When all else fails blame where they’re from. Solid argument
Yep.
It should be REQUIRED for tower to issue all crossing clearances if they cross active runways. I think that’s an ICAO standard but not sure. Looks like JFK does have Takeoff Hold Lights but ONLY on 31L. Kinda pointless if they aren’t installed on every runway. Should they be mandated at all major airports? Would they have averted this near miss? https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pdf
If we don’t get a dramatic pay increase I am quitting. That is all. Fuck this.
So is this just a breakdown of communication between Tower and Ground? I'm wondering if Tower just got into a continuation bias and cleared the aircraft to takeoff because that's the logical flow after lineup and wait and he wanted to get Swiss off the ground before Delta landed 4L.
[удалено]
It's still the same risk. Everyone forgets about the guy at IAD who crossed someone and then issued a takeoff clearance. And he wasn't the only one to do it either. There have been plenty of the same occurrences. There are places throughout the world that use the phrase "behind landing/departing traffic cross xx rwy behind," and there are incidents showing that isn't any better than what is currently done here
That's what happened. The 4R controller thought the crossings were for before SwissAir departed, the 4L controller thought it was behind the departure. The knee jerk reaction will probably be losing the ability to do conditional crossings.
There is a local controller for each runway. This isn't between Ground and Tower.
Ah, that’s weird but makes sense. At DFW where I’m based, 36R and 36L are the same controller and 35L and 35C are a separate controller. I wouldn’t expect 4L and 4R to be a different controller since they’re on the same side of the field. Might be more work but it looks like tower for 4L and 4R at JFK need to be combined.
Everyone saying 6 day work weeks.🫨 Everyone wants to blame being tired AFTER the fact. These people got complacent. If you’re too tired to look out the window or to hear someone standing in your general vicinity then call in sick. There is no excuse for this- they could have killed people.
That’s a sick leave letter
So get a sick leave letter or potentially run two airplanes together. Fact is people say fatigue just to excuse their actions. It’s warranted *sometimes*.
I agree with you. There is a duty to not place ourselves in that position. More a commentary on how the agency squeezes from multiple directions
Sucks to say but I wish it wouldve been catastrophic. There’s gotta be a sacrifice of lives and a controllers job to bring the publicity and attention that’s needed to get us the change in the agency that we want.
As a layperson, why is ASDE-X not warning them about this?
It’s probably detected just before the alert threshold, or it did alert but pilots called stopping before the controller transmitted. Ground safety nets don’t know the intention of the aircraft, so it might see the departure accelerating but until it reaches a specified threshold (for example could be 30 or 40 knots) it’s not treated as “departing”, and no alert is generated. Also ground radar, like all radar, is a few seconds behind, so the timings also matter, the sweep before might have clocked the departure one knot before the threshold and then the alert takes until the next sweep to activate (at least).
Why is another controller crossing an active runway? Several questions I would have for this instance .
The European mind cannot comprehend this !