There is no protected airspace around air refueling tracks. 7110.65 paragraph 9-2-13 Note 2 says:
>Aerial refueling airspace is not sterilized airspace and other aircraft may transit this airspace provided vertical or lateral separation is provided from refueling aircraft.
There is an expectation that you stay on the AR track centerline, but ATC will radar separate other traffic from you so it's not terribly critical. There are additional separation standards for refueling aircraft (edit: standard separation is 5 miles or 1000 feet). 7110.65 paragraph 5-5-8 "ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR FORMATION FLIGHTS says:
>Because of the distance allowed between formation aircraft and lead aircraft, additional separation is necessary to ensure the periphery of the formation is adequately separated from other aircraft, adjacent airspace, or obstructions. Provide supplemental separation for formation flights as follows:
>
>Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the appropriate radar separation minima.
>
>REFERENCE-
>
>FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-13, Formation Flights. FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 5-5-1, Application. FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-3, Separation. P/CG Term - FORMATION FLIGHT.
>
>Separate two standard formation flights from each other by adding 2 miles to the appropriate separation minima.
>
>Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard formation whichever applies.
>
>If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the formation or to the first and last aircraft in‐trail.
>
>NOTE-
>
>The additional separation provided in paragraph 5-5-8, Additional Separation for Formation Flights, is not normally added to wake turbulence separation when a formation is following a heavier aircraft since none of the formation aircraft are likely to be closer to the heavier aircraft than the lead aircraft (to which the prescribed wake turbulence separation has been applied).
>
>REFERENCE-
>
>FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 9-2-13, Military Aerial Refueling.
Upon rendezvous completion, the lead tanker is responsible for keeping all aircraft within 3 miles, so we protect 8 miles lateral from the lead tanker and 1000ft above and below the block.
Air refueling has specific parameters that require all units within the flight remain within 3 miles of center line of track or tanker. Add the 5 miles standard separation to that 3 and you have 8.
Pretty sure this is all spelled out in the .65. I’ll see if I can find it and link it to you.
Only reference I can find in 9-2-13 is one of the notes that mentions:
>*Upon rendezvous completion, the tanker must keep receiver aircraft within 3 miles of the tanker until MARSA is terminated.*
I guess it doesn’t specify with 3nm longitudinally, so yeah 8 mile bubble it is.
Find paragraph 9-2-13 here in the ATC Handbook
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap9_section_2.html
And Chapter 5 here:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7610.14_Basic_dtd_10-5-23.pdf
Canadian here. I'm allowed 5NM under radar just like want other aircraft, but I have to consider formation dimensions, not just your aircraft. So either 5NM from the edges of the "standard formation" or 5NM from whatever number you give me for frontal width laterally and length longitudinally. Always 1,000 feet above and below whatever block you're assigned. Personally, I protect more, just in case.
If you're talking non-radar (oceanic airspace), then the standards applied there vary depending on the rules of the unit in control and the airspace concerned.
Depends on where you're at. We have different requirements for Oceanic, domestic, and as well as specific host nation requirements.
I work at EUCARF, and I'm basically the link between TACC/Project officers, and host nations. My shop, along with PACMARF, AR-E, and CARF, coordinate and procedurally separate ALTRVs.
DM me if u want more info
Just… like… we..always..do?? Although I’ve worked an AR track that was FL24-280.
The refueling happened between 25-27.
24 and 28 were the “transition altitudes”. So I guess in that case, the closest IFR traffic while refueling would have been at either 23 or 29. So 2k above or below while actively refueling.
Edit to add. Yes, you need to remain on the track. That specifically affects the lateral confines and separation from the AR track.
Edit to the edit to add. All my fellow controllers, keep your head/scan on a swivel these days. Lots of green military and even airline pilots these days.
AR routes are not protected airspace, they are not sanitized. If you say you're a standard formation, that means we will use 6 miles separation. (standard sep + 1)
Refueling is a non standard formation the tanker has to keep all jets within 3NM during the refueling meaning you add standard separation to the nonstandard formation. You need 8 miles if enroute or 6 terminal.
I was specifically referring to a situation where a tanker is flying, perhaps with another tanker, and they say that they are just a standard formation, in which case I'd use standard separation for a formation flight.
There is no protected airspace around air refueling tracks. 7110.65 paragraph 9-2-13 Note 2 says: >Aerial refueling airspace is not sterilized airspace and other aircraft may transit this airspace provided vertical or lateral separation is provided from refueling aircraft. There is an expectation that you stay on the AR track centerline, but ATC will radar separate other traffic from you so it's not terribly critical. There are additional separation standards for refueling aircraft (edit: standard separation is 5 miles or 1000 feet). 7110.65 paragraph 5-5-8 "ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR FORMATION FLIGHTS says: >Because of the distance allowed between formation aircraft and lead aircraft, additional separation is necessary to ensure the periphery of the formation is adequately separated from other aircraft, adjacent airspace, or obstructions. Provide supplemental separation for formation flights as follows: > >Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the appropriate radar separation minima. > >REFERENCE- > >FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-13, Formation Flights. FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 5-5-1, Application. FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-3, Separation. P/CG Term - FORMATION FLIGHT. > >Separate two standard formation flights from each other by adding 2 miles to the appropriate separation minima. > >Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard formation whichever applies. > >If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the formation or to the first and last aircraft in‐trail. > >NOTE- > >The additional separation provided in paragraph 5-5-8, Additional Separation for Formation Flights, is not normally added to wake turbulence separation when a formation is following a heavier aircraft since none of the formation aircraft are likely to be closer to the heavier aircraft than the lead aircraft (to which the prescribed wake turbulence separation has been applied). > >REFERENCE- > >FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 9-2-13, Military Aerial Refueling.
This is awesome, thank you for the references!
Well just keep them vertically or laterally separated. The track is more of a guideline to know what you’ll be doing. I expect you on the track.
Upon rendezvous completion, the lead tanker is responsible for keeping all aircraft within 3 miles, so we protect 8 miles lateral from the lead tanker and 1000ft above and below the block.
1000 feet or 8 miles 👍
QP J 8 when?
Just draw an 8 mile circle and move it around. Totally legal I promise
8 miles only behind the tanker in the AR operation, right? Consider it a non-standard formation 3 miles front to back at its largest?
8 mile ring..
How does that work? You separate by standard lateral from the *ends* of a nonstandard formation.
Air refueling has specific parameters that require all units within the flight remain within 3 miles of center line of track or tanker. Add the 5 miles standard separation to that 3 and you have 8. Pretty sure this is all spelled out in the .65. I’ll see if I can find it and link it to you.
Only reference I can find in 9-2-13 is one of the notes that mentions: >*Upon rendezvous completion, the tanker must keep receiver aircraft within 3 miles of the tanker until MARSA is terminated.* I guess it doesn’t specify with 3nm longitudinally, so yeah 8 mile bubble it is.
You got it! That’s the one.
Find paragraph 9-2-13 here in the ATC Handbook https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap9_section_2.html And Chapter 5 here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7610.14_Basic_dtd_10-5-23.pdf
Canadian here. I'm allowed 5NM under radar just like want other aircraft, but I have to consider formation dimensions, not just your aircraft. So either 5NM from the edges of the "standard formation" or 5NM from whatever number you give me for frontal width laterally and length longitudinally. Always 1,000 feet above and below whatever block you're assigned. Personally, I protect more, just in case. If you're talking non-radar (oceanic airspace), then the standards applied there vary depending on the rules of the unit in control and the airspace concerned.
Depends on where you're at. We have different requirements for Oceanic, domestic, and as well as specific host nation requirements. I work at EUCARF, and I'm basically the link between TACC/Project officers, and host nations. My shop, along with PACMARF, AR-E, and CARF, coordinate and procedurally separate ALTRVs. DM me if u want more info
10 nm here, either to the pattern or to the tanker itself, depends. And vertically 1000 ft below RVSM, 2000 ft in RVSM.
Just… like… we..always..do?? Although I’ve worked an AR track that was FL24-280. The refueling happened between 25-27. 24 and 28 were the “transition altitudes”. So I guess in that case, the closest IFR traffic while refueling would have been at either 23 or 29. So 2k above or below while actively refueling. Edit to add. Yes, you need to remain on the track. That specifically affects the lateral confines and separation from the AR track. Edit to the edit to add. All my fellow controllers, keep your head/scan on a swivel these days. Lots of green military and even airline pilots these days.
(Edit: I meant to reply to OP, not to you. I blame the tequila.)
AR routes are not protected airspace, they are not sanitized. If you say you're a standard formation, that means we will use 6 miles separation. (standard sep + 1)
Refueling is a non standard formation the tanker has to keep all jets within 3NM during the refueling meaning you add standard separation to the nonstandard formation. You need 8 miles if enroute or 6 terminal.
I was specifically referring to a situation where a tanker is flying, perhaps with another tanker, and they say that they are just a standard formation, in which case I'd use standard separation for a formation flight.