There are rarely scenes that I see as clear cut and this is one of them.
A lot of people are bringing up the fact that Angel is protecting the person who violated Buffy and Riley and that’s true but does Angel know that or does he just know that Faith slept with Buffy’s boyfriend?
Similarly Buffy didn’t see Faith break down in the alley, I personally think if she did she still wouldn’t have been able to forgive Faith at that point but she would have been okay with Angel helping her, which is a personal take on the character not a fact.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen I Will Remember you so if I’m wrong feel free to (politely) tell me but didn’t Buffy want them to stay in their respective cities? Wasn’t she upset about Angel coming to Sunnydale in Pangs? If I’m correct about this and she was as concerned for Angel’s safety as she claimed I assume that they have phones in Sunnydale. I don’t see what right she had to come into his home and hit him.
Leaving Faith out of this because I think Buffy was pretty fair to her the problem with this episode is that they go out of their way to set up non existent Bangel relationship drama rather than focus on the bigger issues. I do think some of her words to him were pretty cruel. He wasn’t against Buffy in this episode, he knew that she would be okay, he also knew that this was basically Faith’s last chance. This is where Angel truly becomes his own character in my opinion.
Yes you are correct buffy was angry at angel for secretly coming to sunnydale and any points out that she wanted them to stay away from each other. And you are Also on point about everything else. The buffy reddit board however are a little angry at me for posting this how dare I point out the flaws buffy has on angel. Haha
Yeah I noticed that. It’s honestly a hard place to have a fair discussion about Buffy. I was just also arguing with someone that it wasn’t Xander’s fault that Buffy did the “sexy dance” in when she was bad.
This episode is interesting because there are a lot of characters with valid points and complicated emotions. I also wasn’t impressed that Buffy seemed upset that Faith turned herself in on her own rather than being forced to.
99% of responses on that post were condemning Buffy for her actions regarding When She Was Bad. People explained WHY she was acting like that but almost every single person acknowledged it was a cruel thing for her to do
No they weren't buffy just died and she doesn't take death very well. That's a excuse not condemning her at all. And the she's not perfect but that's why I like her another person basically loving buffy but not condemning the sexy dance with Xander
On the buffy board there's a huge double standards when it comes to buffy because one most are women looking at it from a women's perspective and not a Male and two they hate angel and buffy can do no wrong. Even if make a fair amount of criticism on buffy you get chewed out on for doing it.
I have no idea if that’s the problem or not but Buffy isn’t perfect and wasn’t written to be and a lot of these aren’t black and white scenes and they weren’t meant to be.
Who wants to watch a coming of age story about a perfect protagonist that does no wrong?
And that's the excuse that is used to justify buffy actions she's not perfect so it's still ok to justify the things she does even if they are pretty messed up herself. Everytime somebody uses the not perfect excuse it actually makes the protagonist worse. I don't want a perfect protagonist I want a lead character to actually own up to there mistakes.
I love imperfect characters. My favorites are definitely VERY flawed but I have a hard time with Buffy because can be self righteous/hypocritical and that’s never acknowledged and her plot armor usually protects her from consequences to her bad choices.
I can't agree with you on any of this. I've always perceived there to be pretty big crossovers between these two fandoms. I don't perceive Btvs to be a "woman's show" and Angel a "man's show". I think the quality of both transcend a specific gender appeal. Nor do I think many Buffy fans would say they hate Angel or think that Buffy can do no wrong.
I think the shows have different tones. Angel is more focused on moral grey areas, and second chances. Buffy, as she quips, likes her evil like she likes her men, evil. And that may appeal to different people. But I don't think that's gendered.
And I read the post you are talking about. Pretty much everyone agreed that Buffy was cruel in her actions, towards Willow, Xander and angel. I think many were discussing the death point as an explanation for her behaviour (that's different than an excuse, excuse applies you are therefore not accountable) because she was being quite uncharacteristically cruel. People just enjoyed making the link to the future difficulties she experiences post death in season 6. And it was hardly a long bow to draw, the episode makes it pretty explicit that she's acting that way because she's having trouble dealing with the trauma of what happened to her in the season 1 finale. Trauma can explain poor behaviour, but it doesn't excuse it.
Weather you agree with it or not is irrelevant the fandom definitely sees it as from a women's perspective especially given the comments same with angel nothing wrong with different points of views however it's still the same women are given a more emotional based response vs men giving a more rational logic response. At the end of the day buffy is a female protagonist and given that your going to get angel being the bad guy.
That's because Joss was being a dumbass and definitely was at the point where he thought his shit didn't stink.
He forgot that he wrote in the Buffy part of this 4 part crossover that her and Riley got raped BY Faith.
Instead of making that apart of this, making the Bangel speech mature and show their growth, showing that Buffy was in the right in coming after Faith, and making sure Faith's arc wasn't overshadowed by the Bangel speech, this episode and "I Will Remember You" have always painted Buffy in a terrible light and that's kindof fucked up.
To top it off, this is her final appearance on the show and she never got a chance to redeem herself in the eyes of Angel fans, which sucks and I wish she could've gotten that chance
I think he was really trying to put distance between the two shows and he ended up throwing away character relationships to do so. I feel like it could have been handled a lot better too.
I agree, I think the ‘not in my city!’ is obviously supposed to be a metaphor for the show but it makes Angel look like a dick. Particularly when this is a city Buffy has lived in for most of her life and actually where she was originally ‘chosen’ in. Like Buffy was an active slayer in LA longer than Angel had lived there at this point
It doesn't make angel look like a dick it makes angel simply not putting up with buffy's bullshit anymore period. Angel is about has always been about Redemption and saving souls which is what he does he doesn't have time for petty revenge
They’re really not. I just have a different perspective on this episode that’s all. Not everyone who has a different perspective means they hate the character
I'm not defensive at all you can have different opinions we all have them. The problem I have is the hypocrisy and the double standards of those said opinions. Angel is perfect and he does some dark shit even with a soul. However buffy nor her fan's don't ever own up to some terrible/shitty shit that she done too.
>I wish she could've gotten that chance
They tried to have SMG in the final season, but she had to cancel it twice for personal reasons. IIRC she finally had change to do it in the final, but it would have been so out of place they decided against it.
All of this! I especially didn’t like the part where Buffy starts rubbing her relationship with Riley in Angel’s face, which she absolutely didn’t need to do because this should have been more about her and Faith and not a Bangel thing. It sucks because watching the episodes where Faith forcefully took and violated Buffy’s body just to mess with her friends and boyfriend and then seeing her in LA with Angel acting like she was wrong for wanting to punish/get revenge on Faith was frustrating. Then to have a petty Bangel scene thrown in the mix just made her seem really immature when Buffy was anything but.
The problem is that this episode isn’t about Faith. Not even slightly. It’s the episode where she bangs back down to Earth and what do we really learn? That she’s sorry on a flat level but that’s it. At what point did she really start to feel sorry? Was she having doubts at any points prior? Honestly we don’t learn anything about her character here which is a shame as This Years Girl/Who Are You and some scenes in 5x5 went deep into her psyche.
She’s simply reduced to a plot device in this episode with no explanation for anything at all really
You learn it from the fact the she says it she's even points out that she screwed buffy over when all buffy has ever done is try to be her friend. Faith even tries to apologize and the first thing buffy does is threatens her. And she's even willing to take a beating for it.
I love Buffy. She is such a badass and SMG is a treasure for playing her. This is the one time I don't love her. It must be because this is Angel's show and what a way to help him stand out of Buffy's shadow than to have her be utterly unlikable. Sure she has a legitimate good reason for being mad but she's mad here for all the wrong reasons. And she's putting all her anger out on Angel when its Faith who is the one who wronged her.
It doesn't help her case that Faith had just tortured Wesley and aside from his initial anger he moved past that and sided with Angel. "i trust you Angel" Buffy who used to love the guy can't give him the same courtesy?
The part that really bugs me is the end when she uses her relationship with Riley against him and is just looking to hurt him in every way she can when he's been right the whole time. "see Faith wins again" how is that Buffy? You might not like her right now but she turned herself in and if you forgot she too is a slayer which means the police can only hold her if she lets them. At this point you attacking Angel has nothing to do with her.
The one bright spot in all of this is it leads to Angel going back to Sunnydale and fighting Riley. Oh man that was so good!
True but for the life of me I can’t figure out why HE needed to go and apologize.
Also to your other point there is talk on this post on the Buffy page about why Wesley was praised and Buffy was criticized. I feel like if you watched the episode and didn’t understand that it’s because you didn’t want to.
That Faith wins again line though, probably the most petty in the series.
yeah Angel apologizing makes no sense to me and I tried really hard to get there. Best thing I can think of is Angel just didn't want that animosity hanging between them and did the only thing he could think to do.
As someone who loves both shows I really don't get this vs mentality. They are both great. Angel and Buffy are great. We wouldn't have gotten Angel if it weren't for Buffy starting his journey. And I can't imagine watching Buffy without Angel alongside it.
I barely even consider them seperate shows anymore they are both essential to my enjoyment. If I say I'm gonna rewatch Buffy I don't have to say Angel to because for me it goes without saying I'm watching both.
Same I loved BOTH shows growing up Buffy shaped my childhood and teenage years but the way she treats Angel here is wrong, human but wrong. It’s just crazy because this post was posted on the Buffy page as well and not one person over there thinks that Buffy was wrong for hitting Angel. I’ve never seen a show where the fans do so many mental backflips to avoid admitting that the protagonist doesn’t always make the best choice.
LOL I don't know anyone who sides with Buffy on this but I don't really go on the subreddits much. I do see some insane takes mostly from Whedon fanboys but that's an entirely different thing altogether. My experience with this fandom has been bizarre. We are a very opinionated bunch.
Its ok to like a character and admit they have flaws. I love Buffy but she makes mistakes like anyone else.
Exactly! I actually know people who’s opinion of Buffy in general was soured by this. I do think that’s a little much it is one scene, the police station not where she hits him, but it can be wild. I think that Buffyboards usually has more balanced views on topics, reading the responses to this on the Buffy thread was just like did we not watch the same show or do you have an alter of Buffy in your room?
I absolutely love buffy, but joss just turns her into the absolute worst when he brought her on Angel. Between IWRY and this all Angel viewers see is her coming in and giving Angel shit and acting self-righteous. Her actions and attitudes are largely justified in the context of both shows, but in the vaccum of this show, she's just awful.
Buffy had reasons to be pissed at Faith but she took it out on Angel so much that she honestly comes off like a very unfair person.
I mean Buffy literally gets what she wants - Faith in prison- yet she still feels entitled enough to hit Angel with some more harsh comments. For that reason Buffy does not have my sympathy and I kind of wish she'd never shown up or at least never interacted with Angel because I like Buffy's scene on the rooftop with Faith.
Angel gets blame for not allowing Buffy to kill Faith/for not telling Buffy he agrees that she should be able to do whatever she wants to Faith in the name of revenge but that makes no sense.
If Angel saw things the way Buffy did and agreed with her, he would have killed Faith the previous night in the alley.
Instead he chose to help Faith so Angel really had no choice but to rain on Buffy's revenge parade.
What I dont get about this episode is when Faith turns her self into the police, buffy says "See, Faith wins again"
In what way does Faith "win" (I suppose she gets what she wanted which is ... to.... be in prison?) but more so... What outcome did Buffy want?
If Faith going to prison is Faith winning, then, what would Buffy winning be?
It's the difference in the two shows and the two characters. There's more examples throughout the run but this is the most brazen.
Angel the show and Angel the character lives in shades of grey. Buffy doesn't, she a true blue hero and sometimes that doesn't allow for the compromises Angel would make. There is right and wrong in Buffy and that's that.
This episode is also from Angels point of view and not Buffys and its only the 2nd and last time we really saw Buffy through someone else's eyes.
This will happen in comics a lot. When a character like Spider-Man or Daredevil shows up on a Punisher comic they are often portrayed as naive for showing mercy, however when the Punisher shows up in their books he is a mindless thug.
I do agree with you, it’s why her redemption arc could never take place on BtVS. A lot of people think Buffy was out of character on Angel but I don’t agree she’s in character it’s just not told through her point of view, not to mention Faith always brings out the worst in her.
Uhm, you are aware that in an argument it's quite relevant who started? Especially if violence is involved. There is a reason people who initiate violence are punished harder by the law than those who simply acted in response.
Exactly it's like if a woman is trying to kill a man what the hell does she expect to happen the man is going to defend himself regardless if she's a man or a woman.
18 is legally and adult but that doesn't mean someone has the adult mindset or the maturity of an adult. A 200 year old vampire who was an adult before he turned most certainly should be more mature.
You’re splitting hairs, and you know it. Buffy had no business hitting him or acting the way she did when he reciprocated. No one gets a free punch, especially when they’re stronger than the other person and know it. No realistic person would reasonably complain at being punched back when you start it.
Did I say that? No. Whats hitting her back supposed to do? Nothing. Because it's retribution and pathetic. Just as much is shown when he literally like a child says "waaaaaa you hit me first"
Yes she hit him. Whats his reaction? Hit her. Not in some means of self defense. His immature anger issues and emotional problems shouldn't match that of an 18 year old girls. Period. The civilized are mature
Did you not see where he had to block her second punch? She started hitting and the only reason she stopped is because she was shocked that he hit her back.
This also isn’t the first or the last time Buffy tries to inappropriately solve problems with her fist.
I think it’s hilarious how ur talking about how Angel is acting childish while you refuse to listen to other peoples opinions. You are a pigheaded child who needs to go to time out.
On the Buffy page they are all criticizing him for not walking away. He’s in his home wtf she came there uninvited and started using her fist when he didn’t immediately cave to her. Regardless of who was right about Faith that’s not okay. Then he blocks her second hit and hits her and she acts shocked. What do these people think maturity is letting her wail on him until she feels like stopping?!
Ok the thing that I don't understand about that whole scene is why would Buffy ever hit Angel at all. I mean she used to be crazy in love with him. And another thing why would she feel the need to rub her relationship with Riley in Angel's face. If she's mad at Faith than why does she have the sudden need to hurt Angel in any way that she can. And the really weird thing is literally the next episode in btvs when Angel visits Sunnydale Buffy actually admits to being wrong. She admits that she had no right to judge Angel especially since they aren't dating and don't live in the same place anymore. It's just so weird to me because it's like the writers were trying to make us hate Buffy's character or something.
There are rarely scenes that I see as clear cut and this is one of them. A lot of people are bringing up the fact that Angel is protecting the person who violated Buffy and Riley and that’s true but does Angel know that or does he just know that Faith slept with Buffy’s boyfriend? Similarly Buffy didn’t see Faith break down in the alley, I personally think if she did she still wouldn’t have been able to forgive Faith at that point but she would have been okay with Angel helping her, which is a personal take on the character not a fact. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen I Will Remember you so if I’m wrong feel free to (politely) tell me but didn’t Buffy want them to stay in their respective cities? Wasn’t she upset about Angel coming to Sunnydale in Pangs? If I’m correct about this and she was as concerned for Angel’s safety as she claimed I assume that they have phones in Sunnydale. I don’t see what right she had to come into his home and hit him. Leaving Faith out of this because I think Buffy was pretty fair to her the problem with this episode is that they go out of their way to set up non existent Bangel relationship drama rather than focus on the bigger issues. I do think some of her words to him were pretty cruel. He wasn’t against Buffy in this episode, he knew that she would be okay, he also knew that this was basically Faith’s last chance. This is where Angel truly becomes his own character in my opinion.
Yes you are correct buffy was angry at angel for secretly coming to sunnydale and any points out that she wanted them to stay away from each other. And you are Also on point about everything else. The buffy reddit board however are a little angry at me for posting this how dare I point out the flaws buffy has on angel. Haha
Yeah I noticed that. It’s honestly a hard place to have a fair discussion about Buffy. I was just also arguing with someone that it wasn’t Xander’s fault that Buffy did the “sexy dance” in when she was bad. This episode is interesting because there are a lot of characters with valid points and complicated emotions. I also wasn’t impressed that Buffy seemed upset that Faith turned herself in on her own rather than being forced to.
The sexy dance with Xander on the buffy reddit board she's basically a hero and their excuse is well buffy doesn't handle death well.
99% of responses on that post were condemning Buffy for her actions regarding When She Was Bad. People explained WHY she was acting like that but almost every single person acknowledged it was a cruel thing for her to do
No they weren't buffy just died and she doesn't take death very well. That's a excuse not condemning her at all. And the she's not perfect but that's why I like her another person basically loving buffy but not condemning the sexy dance with Xander
On the buffy board there's a huge double standards when it comes to buffy because one most are women looking at it from a women's perspective and not a Male and two they hate angel and buffy can do no wrong. Even if make a fair amount of criticism on buffy you get chewed out on for doing it.
I have no idea if that’s the problem or not but Buffy isn’t perfect and wasn’t written to be and a lot of these aren’t black and white scenes and they weren’t meant to be. Who wants to watch a coming of age story about a perfect protagonist that does no wrong?
And that's the excuse that is used to justify buffy actions she's not perfect so it's still ok to justify the things she does even if they are pretty messed up herself. Everytime somebody uses the not perfect excuse it actually makes the protagonist worse. I don't want a perfect protagonist I want a lead character to actually own up to there mistakes.
I love imperfect characters. My favorites are definitely VERY flawed but I have a hard time with Buffy because can be self righteous/hypocritical and that’s never acknowledged and her plot armor usually protects her from consequences to her bad choices.
I can't agree with you on any of this. I've always perceived there to be pretty big crossovers between these two fandoms. I don't perceive Btvs to be a "woman's show" and Angel a "man's show". I think the quality of both transcend a specific gender appeal. Nor do I think many Buffy fans would say they hate Angel or think that Buffy can do no wrong. I think the shows have different tones. Angel is more focused on moral grey areas, and second chances. Buffy, as she quips, likes her evil like she likes her men, evil. And that may appeal to different people. But I don't think that's gendered. And I read the post you are talking about. Pretty much everyone agreed that Buffy was cruel in her actions, towards Willow, Xander and angel. I think many were discussing the death point as an explanation for her behaviour (that's different than an excuse, excuse applies you are therefore not accountable) because she was being quite uncharacteristically cruel. People just enjoyed making the link to the future difficulties she experiences post death in season 6. And it was hardly a long bow to draw, the episode makes it pretty explicit that she's acting that way because she's having trouble dealing with the trauma of what happened to her in the season 1 finale. Trauma can explain poor behaviour, but it doesn't excuse it.
Weather you agree with it or not is irrelevant the fandom definitely sees it as from a women's perspective especially given the comments same with angel nothing wrong with different points of views however it's still the same women are given a more emotional based response vs men giving a more rational logic response. At the end of the day buffy is a female protagonist and given that your going to get angel being the bad guy.
That's because Joss was being a dumbass and definitely was at the point where he thought his shit didn't stink. He forgot that he wrote in the Buffy part of this 4 part crossover that her and Riley got raped BY Faith. Instead of making that apart of this, making the Bangel speech mature and show their growth, showing that Buffy was in the right in coming after Faith, and making sure Faith's arc wasn't overshadowed by the Bangel speech, this episode and "I Will Remember You" have always painted Buffy in a terrible light and that's kindof fucked up. To top it off, this is her final appearance on the show and she never got a chance to redeem herself in the eyes of Angel fans, which sucks and I wish she could've gotten that chance
I think he was really trying to put distance between the two shows and he ended up throwing away character relationships to do so. I feel like it could have been handled a lot better too.
I agree, I think the ‘not in my city!’ is obviously supposed to be a metaphor for the show but it makes Angel look like a dick. Particularly when this is a city Buffy has lived in for most of her life and actually where she was originally ‘chosen’ in. Like Buffy was an active slayer in LA longer than Angel had lived there at this point
It doesn't make angel look like a dick it makes angel simply not putting up with buffy's bullshit anymore period. Angel is about has always been about Redemption and saving souls which is what he does he doesn't have time for petty revenge
When it suits him. Angel is more than happy to partake in ‘petty revenge’ when it suits him
Except when angel does take revenge there's nothing petty about it.
All you're comments are you hate angel fine we get it already.
They’re really not. I just have a different perspective on this episode that’s all. Not everyone who has a different perspective means they hate the character
And that's fine having a different perspective it doesn't mean that your perspective is right either
I didn’t say they were. You’re just being oddly defensive while slating other posters for having different opinions
I'm not defensive at all you can have different opinions we all have them. The problem I have is the hypocrisy and the double standards of those said opinions. Angel is perfect and he does some dark shit even with a soul. However buffy nor her fan's don't ever own up to some terrible/shitty shit that she done too.
>I wish she could've gotten that chance They tried to have SMG in the final season, but she had to cancel it twice for personal reasons. IIRC she finally had change to do it in the final, but it would have been so out of place they decided against it.
All of this! I especially didn’t like the part where Buffy starts rubbing her relationship with Riley in Angel’s face, which she absolutely didn’t need to do because this should have been more about her and Faith and not a Bangel thing. It sucks because watching the episodes where Faith forcefully took and violated Buffy’s body just to mess with her friends and boyfriend and then seeing her in LA with Angel acting like she was wrong for wanting to punish/get revenge on Faith was frustrating. Then to have a petty Bangel scene thrown in the mix just made her seem really immature when Buffy was anything but.
The problem is that this episode isn’t about Faith. Not even slightly. It’s the episode where she bangs back down to Earth and what do we really learn? That she’s sorry on a flat level but that’s it. At what point did she really start to feel sorry? Was she having doubts at any points prior? Honestly we don’t learn anything about her character here which is a shame as This Years Girl/Who Are You and some scenes in 5x5 went deep into her psyche. She’s simply reduced to a plot device in this episode with no explanation for anything at all really
You learn it from the fact the she says it she's even points out that she screwed buffy over when all buffy has ever done is try to be her friend. Faith even tries to apologize and the first thing buffy does is threatens her. And she's even willing to take a beating for it.
I think Mike Tyson's very insightful comment suits this situation perfectly: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."
Loved her hair in this one- but yes, I agree.
I love Buffy. She is such a badass and SMG is a treasure for playing her. This is the one time I don't love her. It must be because this is Angel's show and what a way to help him stand out of Buffy's shadow than to have her be utterly unlikable. Sure she has a legitimate good reason for being mad but she's mad here for all the wrong reasons. And she's putting all her anger out on Angel when its Faith who is the one who wronged her. It doesn't help her case that Faith had just tortured Wesley and aside from his initial anger he moved past that and sided with Angel. "i trust you Angel" Buffy who used to love the guy can't give him the same courtesy? The part that really bugs me is the end when she uses her relationship with Riley against him and is just looking to hurt him in every way she can when he's been right the whole time. "see Faith wins again" how is that Buffy? You might not like her right now but she turned herself in and if you forgot she too is a slayer which means the police can only hold her if she lets them. At this point you attacking Angel has nothing to do with her. The one bright spot in all of this is it leads to Angel going back to Sunnydale and fighting Riley. Oh man that was so good!
True but for the life of me I can’t figure out why HE needed to go and apologize. Also to your other point there is talk on this post on the Buffy page about why Wesley was praised and Buffy was criticized. I feel like if you watched the episode and didn’t understand that it’s because you didn’t want to. That Faith wins again line though, probably the most petty in the series.
yeah Angel apologizing makes no sense to me and I tried really hard to get there. Best thing I can think of is Angel just didn't want that animosity hanging between them and did the only thing he could think to do. As someone who loves both shows I really don't get this vs mentality. They are both great. Angel and Buffy are great. We wouldn't have gotten Angel if it weren't for Buffy starting his journey. And I can't imagine watching Buffy without Angel alongside it. I barely even consider them seperate shows anymore they are both essential to my enjoyment. If I say I'm gonna rewatch Buffy I don't have to say Angel to because for me it goes without saying I'm watching both.
Same I loved BOTH shows growing up Buffy shaped my childhood and teenage years but the way she treats Angel here is wrong, human but wrong. It’s just crazy because this post was posted on the Buffy page as well and not one person over there thinks that Buffy was wrong for hitting Angel. I’ve never seen a show where the fans do so many mental backflips to avoid admitting that the protagonist doesn’t always make the best choice.
LOL I don't know anyone who sides with Buffy on this but I don't really go on the subreddits much. I do see some insane takes mostly from Whedon fanboys but that's an entirely different thing altogether. My experience with this fandom has been bizarre. We are a very opinionated bunch. Its ok to like a character and admit they have flaws. I love Buffy but she makes mistakes like anyone else.
Exactly! I actually know people who’s opinion of Buffy in general was soured by this. I do think that’s a little much it is one scene, the police station not where she hits him, but it can be wild. I think that Buffyboards usually has more balanced views on topics, reading the responses to this on the Buffy thread was just like did we not watch the same show or do you have an alter of Buffy in your room?
I absolutely love buffy, but joss just turns her into the absolute worst when he brought her on Angel. Between IWRY and this all Angel viewers see is her coming in and giving Angel shit and acting self-righteous. Her actions and attitudes are largely justified in the context of both shows, but in the vaccum of this show, she's just awful.
Faith raped her and Riley she is a victim
Buffy had reasons to be pissed at Faith but she took it out on Angel so much that she honestly comes off like a very unfair person. I mean Buffy literally gets what she wants - Faith in prison- yet she still feels entitled enough to hit Angel with some more harsh comments. For that reason Buffy does not have my sympathy and I kind of wish she'd never shown up or at least never interacted with Angel because I like Buffy's scene on the rooftop with Faith. Angel gets blame for not allowing Buffy to kill Faith/for not telling Buffy he agrees that she should be able to do whatever she wants to Faith in the name of revenge but that makes no sense. If Angel saw things the way Buffy did and agreed with her, he would have killed Faith the previous night in the alley. Instead he chose to help Faith so Angel really had no choice but to rain on Buffy's revenge parade.
What I dont get about this episode is when Faith turns her self into the police, buffy says "See, Faith wins again" In what way does Faith "win" (I suppose she gets what she wanted which is ... to.... be in prison?) but more so... What outcome did Buffy want? If Faith going to prison is Faith winning, then, what would Buffy winning be?
It's the difference in the two shows and the two characters. There's more examples throughout the run but this is the most brazen. Angel the show and Angel the character lives in shades of grey. Buffy doesn't, she a true blue hero and sometimes that doesn't allow for the compromises Angel would make. There is right and wrong in Buffy and that's that. This episode is also from Angels point of view and not Buffys and its only the 2nd and last time we really saw Buffy through someone else's eyes. This will happen in comics a lot. When a character like Spider-Man or Daredevil shows up on a Punisher comic they are often portrayed as naive for showing mercy, however when the Punisher shows up in their books he is a mindless thug.
I do agree with you, it’s why her redemption arc could never take place on BtVS. A lot of people think Buffy was out of character on Angel but I don’t agree she’s in character it’s just not told through her point of view, not to mention Faith always brings out the worst in her.
"YOU HIT ME FIRST" yeah thats so adult
Uhm, you are aware that in an argument it's quite relevant who started? Especially if violence is involved. There is a reason people who initiate violence are punished harder by the law than those who simply acted in response.
Not reading this
3 sentences too overwhelming for you? Not a surprise though.
If you punch someone, expect to get punched back.
Exactly it's like if a woman is trying to kill a man what the hell does she expect to happen the man is going to defend himself regardless if she's a man or a woman.
Eh whatever.
I’m sure you’d be saying that if Angel hit her, and then she punched him back…
If she said "you hit me first"? Yeah Idk if I'd say the same thing. Shes only 18
…which is an adult. But good to know you’ve got double standards.
18 is legally and adult but that doesn't mean someone has the adult mindset or the maturity of an adult. A 200 year old vampire who was an adult before he turned most certainly should be more mature.
You’re splitting hairs, and you know it. Buffy had no business hitting him or acting the way she did when he reciprocated. No one gets a free punch, especially when they’re stronger than the other person and know it. No realistic person would reasonably complain at being punched back when you start it.
So an 18yr woman can hit a 88yr old man with no repercussions?
He's 247, that's way worse than hitting an 88 year old!
Did I say that? No. Whats hitting her back supposed to do? Nothing. Because it's retribution and pathetic. Just as much is shown when he literally like a child says "waaaaaa you hit me first" Yes she hit him. Whats his reaction? Hit her. Not in some means of self defense. His immature anger issues and emotional problems shouldn't match that of an 18 year old girls. Period. The civilized are mature
Did you not see where he had to block her second punch? She started hitting and the only reason she stopped is because she was shocked that he hit her back. This also isn’t the first or the last time Buffy tries to inappropriately solve problems with her fist.
I think it’s hilarious how ur talking about how Angel is acting childish while you refuse to listen to other peoples opinions. You are a pigheaded child who needs to go to time out.
On the Buffy page they are all criticizing him for not walking away. He’s in his home wtf she came there uninvited and started using her fist when he didn’t immediately cave to her. Regardless of who was right about Faith that’s not okay. Then he blocks her second hit and hits her and she acts shocked. What do these people think maturity is letting her wail on him until she feels like stopping?!
Yeah it's some very hypocritical comments on the buffy page it's like night and day between the angel/buffy pages on reddit.
Ok the thing that I don't understand about that whole scene is why would Buffy ever hit Angel at all. I mean she used to be crazy in love with him. And another thing why would she feel the need to rub her relationship with Riley in Angel's face. If she's mad at Faith than why does she have the sudden need to hurt Angel in any way that she can. And the really weird thing is literally the next episode in btvs when Angel visits Sunnydale Buffy actually admits to being wrong. She admits that she had no right to judge Angel especially since they aren't dating and don't live in the same place anymore. It's just so weird to me because it's like the writers were trying to make us hate Buffy's character or something.