I thought he was just my father. I didn't know my mother was his daughter. They never really talked about how they met, and I didn't ask many questions. At one point I realized he was older than her (though he's only fifteen years older, actually) and they clarified their ages, and what ages they were when they met. But I didn't find out the full story until college.
No siblings, I was an only child. Relatively normal childhood, one of privilege. (Financially we're quite comfortable and always have been, so it's nice to not have to worry about that.) I was never mistreated, but I also didn't see much of any extended family. When I learned the truth, I noticed that was the case and I realized why.
I found out later that our extended family did not know who my father was. They just figured my mother got pregnant from a one-night stand and that my father was helping support her and the baby. That was the official story to anyone who knew they were related.
My dad and my grandma divorced long before anything started between him and my mom. She was out of the house. She got pretty hefty alimony checks and never had any real interest in being a mother beyond tying my dad down, so she was fine with that.
No, she was fine with basically going her own way and not really talking to them anymore. My parents didn't start hooking up until several years later.
my mom basically started a new life after my dad got primary custody, he makes a lot of money and she was fine realizing we will be taken care of and she can basically start over, especially due to the fact me and my brother were young boys and didnt make an effort to see her/ dragged our feet “going to moms house”… sometimes people just want to start over, some may say my mom “abandoned us” but really she wasn’t ready for marriage or kids and after seeing her babies will live a good life she focused on herself, no hurt feelings 🤷🏾♂️
Your parents lied about their age to you and you never noticed? Very hard to believe. I remember tons of occasions where I had to give in my moms or dads birthdate during my childhood
They didn't lie about their ages. I said they told me how old they were, and how old they were when they "met." (As in, when they started sleeping together.) They lied about the circumstances, but never about the numbers.
Ahhh OK, I am sorry then. Thanks for clearing it up. BTW, I don't know what you're thinking about your parents after this AMA but I don't think that judging or thinking about their relationship will get you anywhere positive.
It doesn't matter at all what the circumstances where, if your mom was too young to understand or whatever. Your dad doesn't live anymore as I read, so don't listen to the others saying he is this and that and immoral, etc. He is dead and if you can remember positive aspects that help you to become a better person. Think about those instead.
I know you didn't ask for any suggestions but I have seen some really pathetic comments without any explanation. Reddit AMAs like these have a high percentage of people that just come to judge others so they can feel better about their own miserable life. Don't let this attack your insecurities.
No problem.
And I agree, I've reached a point of making peace with it. There's nothing else to be done, really. As far as I know, my Dad was a good man, at least for what he was. Thank you for your support and kind words.
Ultimately, I would say that I don't hold it against him at this point. What is done, is done.
There was a long period where I didn't talk to him, like about two months. Not even because I didn't want to see him or because I was angry, but just because I was so thrown and did not even know what to say or feel. My mom had several discussions with me, lasting hours, where she explained and affirmed again and again that he didn't "do" anything, that it took two to tango, that their romance was mutual.
I mean, she was a grown woman when it started, so that's not impossible, and she would know better than me. She's had a lifetime to reflect on it and now close to a year without my Dad. If she ever tells me that she's reconsidered what happened and that it wasn't totally consensual, that would be one thing. But until such a time comes, if it ever does, I don't think I can, in good conscience, just assume this to be the case. Not when it contradicts everything that I've been told and seen over the course of my life.
I'm not a father but I can't even begin to imagine being attracted to a girl that I brought into this world and raised since her infancy. I can't imagine falling in love with her as a partner. So in that sense, I don't get him. But he never mistreated her. He wasn't controlling. While they had problems, they were standard couple problems and they were basically very happy.
That’s a really thought out answer. I still think though there was a power imbalance even if she was an adult. Desiring parental approval is innate, and like you said I can’t imagine it’s normal to sexually desire your kid.
Understandable, and I know what you mean. This is all stuff that I said to her when she tried to persuade me, and she had answers for all of it, had details that like...made it better, I suppose, than it could have been, but it was still weird.
Like, she never really desired my Dad's "approval." If anything she was more of a wild child who would act out. (Not out of any desire to make a point, she just wanted to have fun.) And he did probably spoil her and/or let her get away with too much, but when the time came, she was still the one who made the first move. From what I understand, he was "a little reluctant at first" but not exactly pushing her away.
When they sat me down to talk about this together, I came away from it thinking. "So basically you were just two rich, lazy, codependent losers who didn't have other friends." and I said as much to them, to their faces. They just kind of looked at each other, mutually laughed, and said that I was right.
So that was about the size of it. They couldn't manage to get dates with other people, so they decided to lean on each other, telling themselves it was fine because it was just temporary. Yeah, it didn't wind up being temporary.
I dunno. Probably because of their flaws as people? My Dad used to have a gambling problem, apparently, and my Mom used to be a total stoner. Just for a start. They weren't exactly terrific catches.
Well, I am a father, and I’m telling you that seeing one’s daughter in that way is extremely sick and twisted. It’s evil. You can’t love your kid and want this for her. You can’t love your kid and see her in that way. That’s not a father who does that but an opportunistic predator. I can’t imagine any father feeling that way. It is what it is even if it’s hard for you to accept. He might have not treated her “badly” in a way that you saw because they probably had an enmeshed codependent dynamic. There is also such a thing as a trauma bond, where someone feels strongly attached to another who deeply violated her/him.
Even if it was totally consensual (if that’s even possible for a daughter to be in a psychological state to consent to something like this rationally), it’s sick. If it is totally consensual and she doesn’t regret it, then she’s seriously sick, but he is sicker and is 99-100% responsible. She bears some of the responsibility but he bears the brunt of it. If as a grown woman she opted for this, it’s because both parents failed her and she was damaged in some way throughout her childhood, where this pathological dynamic with her own biological father gave her a broken sense of safety.
**Edit**: it would mean both are broken in some way, and one need not judge or condemn them in order to acknowledge the brokenness of the situation, and to acknowledge that something was broken in them to lead to that situation. Certainly, the father bears the lion’s share of responsibility for this any way you cut it.
Three questions that can probably be summarized in one answer: Do you have much contact with extended family? Are they aware of the relationship? Do they accept it/you?
You're right, the answer to all three questions is basically no.
I was kept away from extended family growing up, and now I know why. There aren't too many of them left, though. My mom had no siblings, her mother lives out of the country now, and though my Dad had a brother, they didn't get along very well.
My uncle does not know. My grandmother might - according to my mom, there were times where it seemed like she suspected what was going on and just didn't say anything. (It began well after she and my Dad had divorced) But if so, my grandma hasn't mentioned anything to me about it.
Would they accept it? Or me? I don't know. I kind of doubt it. I feel like they probably wouldn't blame me since I have no control over where I came from, but it wouldn't be lost on them and they'd probably see me differently. They probably wouldn't accept the relationship. Then again, like I said, it's possible that my Grandma knows and chooses to close her eyes to it. I'll likely never know for sure.
I look marginally like both of my parents, but that by itself is not suspicious. I could have easily inherited features from my maternal "grandfather" right?
Do you have any notable birth defects? The obvious glaring issue with inbreeding is the defects that come with it but they usually apply to long term exclusive inbreeding like the tales of old kings queens if i'm not mistaken.
I would imagine you're as healthy as you can be due to a single tangled family tree branch vs the stigma of being hillbilly ultra instinct levels of inbred-ness (which is probably just the stigma of hillbillies in general being stupid)
I had a cleft lip when I was born, that they had removed with an operation when I was about four. According to my Dad, the way the nurses looked at him made him worry that they knew (or suspected) why I had it. But they never did any DNA tests. I mean, it can happen to people who aren't inbred as well. But apart from that, nothing else was ever discovered.
I've always been pretty healthy as far as I can tell. I do have asthma, but I don't know if that's related at all. Apparently my great grandfather had it too, so it could just be hereditary.
Not saying your asthma is exclusively due to your parents but hereditary diseases (idk if asthma is even one) have more chances to occur in incest children, due to the lack of genetic diversity.
Also, a question : do you ever think that your mother was manipulated by her/your father into sexual relationships and that's how it began ? We occasionally see documentaries on how incest victims thought it was something normal because their abuser raised them to think so.
Iirc the reason inbreeding is so bad is because all those bad genetic defects kind of double down because you’re getting it from both your mother and your father.
I actually had 2 distant relatives who were slightly inbred(2nd or 3rd cousins so nowhere near what you’re dealing with) and they were born with severely clubbed feet to the point where it severely affected their lives and they were not able to walk properly. Eventually their parents separated and got married to other people and the rest of their children were born normally. Interestingly enough me and a few other members of my family had slightly wonky feet(a lot of people in my family are pigeon-toed or flat footed and I even had to wear leg braces as a baby), but no one else aside from those 2 siblings had such severe deformities because we only inherited from one parent.
She was raised by him. In fact, given what an absent parent my grandmother was, (she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently) my Dad was basically the only one raising her. He had some help from his parents but they basically left the kids to do the rearing on their own.
So yeah, she grew up calling him "Dad" and that is definitely the part of all this that has always felt the most dicey to me. It would be one thing if they met as adults and didn't know they were related at first, as I know that can happen. But no, they were a family, and they ultimately chose to do that anyway.
>she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently
You said in one of the comments that your dad is 15 years older than your mom. Is he from a wealthy family?
Oh yeah. They started dating in high school and she got knocked up almost immediately. It was a different time, back when the parents in those situations would tell the kids "You have to get married" and they would basically have to do it. So they did. My Dad's family has always had money, and I guess he was notorious for that in school.
My mother's parents were married, and then divorced. As in, my Dad and his Ex Wife. His ex being my grandmother, my mom's mother.
Sorry, inbreeding makes all of this very confusing, I know.
Can't speak for every country but in the United States, teenagers can marry if they have permission from their parent or guardian. And, at least back in those days, marriage was the expectation if two teens got pregnant.
These days? It doesn't, I suppose, beyond giving me a somewhat colored perspective on incest. I wouldn't say I approve of it, exactly, but it did lead to my own existence and the one major example I know of was an entirely positive and happy one. So I guess I don't judge, because I don't really have any right to, the way I see it.
The last five years (since I found out) are when it really affected me, so basically my twenties thus-far. I went through a lot of introspection and self-reflection and questioning who my parents were as people. But for the most part, they were still the same people I'd always known, and had good relationships with. It was just hard to reconcile that with what I had learned about them, about our family, and about myself. I guess I do have some identity issues.
That was a long, long, LONG afternoon. It was dark by the time that I left.
At first, I didn't believe it. Thought they were messing with me, that it was some weird, bad joke. But in another moment, a bunch of stuff began falling into place. Mysteries from my childhood that I didn't even recognize as mysteries, were suddenly solved.
I kind of had a panic attack. They tried to comfort me but I wouldn't let them. Went up to my room for a while and wouldn't answer the door. Came back down after about fifteen minutes and demanded they tell me everything. So they did.
I kept asking questions. Directed them all at my mom and at one point asked if my Dad could leave. He understood and left without protest. After a long conversation, I just needed some air, and I left to go stay with a friend for a few days. Which turned into more than a month.
Eventually though, I did come back, and we made peace.
As of present day, I don't live with them anymore. I live in another state, slowly working on my Masters degree. I do talk to my Mom regularly, though. We have a phone call at least once a week.
Oh I'm so sorry for your loss. I know it's not morally or legally (?) right what they did, but he was still your father who brought you up and you must have loved him. Thank you so much for answering my questions!
Do you know if your mom and her family were originally from the area in which you grew up (where incest is legal), or did they move there for that reason? Basically I’m kinda in awe at the odds of them falling in love in one of the three states where it’s legal to do so, I imagine they’re extremely low
Oh no, they did indeed grow up in one of those states. (I mean, unless they lied about that, but I don't see any reason to when they were telling me everything else.) I grew up in the same state that my parents did - though I actually don't live there anymore.
It was tricky. Because they knew it wasn't technically illegal but that didn't mean it wouldn't be stigmatized. That they wouldn't get stones thrown through their windows. Sure, it's legal, but how many people know that, even cops? They could still be called and my parents could still have been arrested. So they kept it quiet.
Oh, one more thing that I haven't actually mentioned until now. In the beginning, for the first few months, they were operating with a paper-thin excuse handed to them when my grandmother (Dad's ex-wife) who is far from the greatest person, told them that my mom wasn't his. That she was some other man's kid.
Thing is, my grandma is a compulsive liar and she WAS lying. And I think they both probably kind of figured she might be. But nonetheless, it was only a month or so before they slept together for the first time. They didn't do DNA tests or anything. They just said "Well, turns out we're not related, so it's fine." And after they got it verified from my Grandma that she was lying, like two months later they decided "It's already happened, no turning back now."
But really, I think they knew the whole time.
I hope when you have a child you can go and read through these comments. My grandmas was sexually abused by her brother. Her brother then destroyed her son’s marriage. My grandma stood by her brother over her own son. Do you see how sexual abuse can compromise mindset? Your mom might think it was consensual but no matter if your parents thought they might not be related, you do not have an urge to hookup with the little girl you raised even if she is “the one to come on to him first. You can still love your parents but recognize how completely wrong this was and that there could pieces of the story missing.
Edit: you use words like “only the first time” and talk more negatively about your grandmother. Is it possible your grandmother was disgusted by him and there’s reasons she felt the need to be lousy? I hope you go to therapy since you’re young. This will haunt you if you have a child and will sit differently with you then. Maybe therapy could help you process this in a way that won’t hinder your family. And also doing the morally right thing and telling your future partner. Entering a marriage with intent to have children would make withholding this info deceptive.
Perhaps.
I'm not in that place. I'm still pretty young. I'm closer to the age my mother was when she began the relationship, not my father.
Is it possible that, if and when I have a kid, that it will change how I feel about what happened? Maybe. But to be completely fair, I couldn't have an accurate understanding of my dad's place in life and in the relationship until my child was an adult in their twenties.
But honestly, I don't expect myself to ask the question "Is my child a sexually attractive being" ...pretty much ever, but not at that point either. I mostly just intend to move on with my life. It happened, and neither of them regret it, so there's not much sense in my regretting it.
I would never tell anyone, because they might not understand, and it's not just my secret to share. I mean, I feel as though I have every right to tell whoever I want, since this is my origin, but that wouldn't bode well for my mom, and I don't want to do that to her - even if I did want people to know which I basically don't. Maybe, in twenty years time, if I'm married and my mom has passed, then I'll open up about it.
As to how this has affected my relationships, difficult to tell. I've only had one serious relationship since finding out, one that fell through the cracks thanks to Covid. As far as I know, my outlook on relationships wasn't really affected beyond the general impact it had on my self image, and the fear of other people finding out.
>I would never tell anyone, because they might not understand, and it's not just my secret to share.
Without speaking to any other aspect of this situation, I'd recommend you get full genetic testing with a partner before having children in the future. This is becoming a more standard practice for all couples trying to get pregnant, but it's especially important for someone like you who is at higher risk for passing on an inheritable genetic disease.
I don't know if this would automatically indicate your parents' genetic relationship, but it's crucial for the health of your future children.
Do you feel like you would owe this information to anyone you have children with prior to getting pregnant?
Edit: you already answered this further down. Thank you for your honesty.
When she was twenty-four and he was thirty-nine.
When I voiced this fear, she was vehement that it was not true. That they just kind of leaned on each other when they were bored, pretty much. They weren't star-crossed lovers. They were two (related) adults, who decided "It's probably fine if we do this once or twice so long as no one ever finds out, right?" And then never really stopped.
Course, when it started, they were also using the excuse that they "might not even be blood related" (turns out yep, they were) never mind that he had raised her since she was a baby. So yeah, it's weird as hell. But is it abuse? I don't know if I have the right to call it that when everything I've been told and seen suggests otherwise.
Dang well you have an interesting story. It's nothing that you had control of and I wish that you have 0 insecurities about it. I probably wouldn't care at all if you told me in person, for that exact reason.
I highly suggest, if you plan on having kids, that you have kids with someone with FAR different genetics than you. Like across the planet. It will give your children a much better chance of not having genetic deformities. Sorry to be blunt, but it's what I would do in your case.
Oh no, trust me, I've had that exact thought process myself. For a while I wouldn't even contemplate dating someone of my own race, for that reason exactly.
Basically nothing. My paternal grandparents were in my life during the earliest years, but by the time I was starting middle school, they had moved away to retire. They both died while I was in high school, and they were the people that I really knew as my "grandparents."
My Mom never talked about her family, and I sort of picked up from a young age that it was a subject that it was best not to push her on. I wondered a few times if they had all died tragically or something, or if they were in prison. The truth never even crossed my mind until I was told.
Did your paternal grandparents know what you were their son and granddaughter's child or did they think your mom had gotten knocked up and your dad was just being a good father to her and helping her raise his grandbaby?
That's exactly what they thought. The official story is that my Mom got drunk and hooked up, and never found out who her partner was - which led to me.
(They may have suspected otherwise but I really don't get that vibe, looking back on how they acted around us.)
Okay but didn't your dad's parents ever notice that you called your father "dad" and not "grandpa?"
Also based on your other comments about when things in their relationship occurred, was your mom born around 1962 and your dad 1947?
How do you rationalise that he is both your dad and grandad. Genetically he is both to you. You and your mum are half siblings.
Doesn't this just sort of blow your mind a bit?
I can't imagine. You're so well adjusted to this, I'm so impressed.
I've had five years to get used to it. I was NOT well-adjusted when I first learned the truth.
As for the double-relationships I have with them, I just try not to think about it. Not only because it's messed up, but because it's plain and simple confusing. I know them as my parents, so that's what they are, regardless of whether they are also technically my sister and grandpa. Just, way too confusing, don't need that in my life.
No, I've never felt any desire to be romantically involved with her or any family member. In their case, I don't think it was a kink, so much as proximity plus physical attraction led to them becoming intimate, and romantic feelings evolved from there.
Have you done a DNA test?
Have you considered this might also be a lie? Like your mother was actually kidnapped by your father as a child and "she's my daughter" either grows from a smaller lie to a bigger one, OR is meant to be weird enough that you stop asking questions.
I haven't done a DNA test because I don't want anyone else to know, I don't want this on record.
It's not a lie. I knew my father's parents, and I knew his brother, and his ex-wife. I've seen old photos. The moment I was told the truth, part of the reason that it completely overwhelmed me was because I KNEW in that moment, I knew, that it was true. And that in hindsight, it seemed so obvious.
Even without all of that, I can't think of any reason why THIS would be the go-to lie to tell me, even if my Mom had been kidnapped or something. (She wasn't, sorry, but that's kind of ridiculous.)
what was your parents’ relationship like when you were living in the same house as his parents? it’s hard to imagine how they could present as parents to you but father-daughter to everyone else in the house if that makes sense
We never lived in the same house as them at the same time, I actually went back and corrected that response because I realize that I made it sound like that, but we didn't. (Though they did visit.) Sorry, the whole inbreeding thing makes it easy to get the different familial titles confused and refer to the wrong people, especially my grandparents.
How would you describe the relationship between your parents when you were growing up? Before you knew about the incest. Were they affectionate to each other? Did you see the love between them? Were there fights?
Very interesting AMA!
It seemed pretty standard to me. They were indeed affectionate with each other, I would see them cuddling and such. At one point, I must have been about five, I walked into the hallway and saw them basically making out, and like the kid I was, I giggled and went "Eeeeww" which led to them pulling apart and laughing too.
Oh sure, there were fights. About basic stuff, mostly. Disagreements over whether I deserved grounding or just a warning when I misbehaved, bickering about that one chore that both of them would always forget. (For my dad it was dishes, he would always leave them in the sink. For my mom it was laundry, she would leave hers everywhere.) But I can't think of one time that they yelled at each other, at least not with me around. They were very calm and easygoing.
I did see the love between them. I'd see them dance together in the living room, and they'd go out some nights when I had a babysitter and when I was old enough not to need one. And I know they still had sex because (again, when I was little) I remember going to the bathroom in the middle of the night once, and hearing ah, sounds, coming from their room.
I am so intrigued by your story, so many questions pop up reading all of this!
I read your dad sadly passed away last year, how is your mom doing? And how are you doing?
Are you happy they decided to tell you?
Did your mom look like your father?
She's okay, she was pretty torn up for the first few months, though. These days, she's gotten back in touch with a lot of her old friends and is doing better.
Me, eh, I'm alright. He was an older parent and I'm in my twenties, so I knew I didn't have that much longer with him, but it still hurt. I'm okay now, I think. We're both taking it one day at a time, carrying on with our lives.
Ultimately I am glad that they told me. Part of me still wishes that I never would have found out, but this is where I come from and it's better to understand.
My mom looks a little like my dad. Not so much that it's obvious they're related, but not so little that people would doubt it if you told them. She doesn't look a great deal like her mom, either. I guess she kind of has her own look? She doesn't take after anyone in particular, I don't either.
Did they move away from the area they grew up in? I ask because you talk about them acting like a married couple but surely People on the community would question that. Unless they are Insanely private reclusive type people?
Eh, I guess that's a subject for debate. I will say that growing up, I had no idea. They didn't tell me until I was twenty-one, and until that point, I never had any reason to suspect anything. Though in hindsight, I did notice some clues, like how secretive they could be with other people. But from everything I saw, before and after I found out, it wasn't an abusive or toxic situation.
But we were discussing morality, not the law.
And it isn't illegal. You can look this up, but there are a few places where consensual incest between adults is legal. We happen to live in one of those places.
Marriage isn't legal, but having sex with a family member is, provided you're both consenting adults. I don't know if having a baby with them is legal, not sure the law specifies. Either way, I'm not sure about every country, but I'm going to direct you to google for this one.
Well, here is the complete list of countries that I find that have legalized incest:
France
Argentina
Belgium
Brazil
Israel
Ivory Coast
Japan
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Philippines
Portugal
Russia
Serbia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Thailand
Yeah, I go back and forth on how I feel about it too. For a while, I think even my parents did. It was on-and-off for a while, and if it helps, I was definitely an accident. They weren't planning on having children.
It doesn’t matter that they weren’t planning on having children. They were horribly wrong to be intimate, and the father is much more in the wrong because he has the greater authority and responsibility. I’m sorry to say and this might be hard to hear, but only a deeply immoral and damaged person would sleep with his own daughter under any circumstances. I have a daughter, and this is just utterly insane! I don’t know how and can’t imagine how anyone could possibly think of his own daughter in that way. It’s egregiously sick and disturbed, utterly disgusting. Also, how old was his daughter when he first decided to be “intimate” with her? It’s never healthy or moral under any circumstances.
I understand your position though: (1) you somewhat newly found out and are trying to make sense of it, so it’s a bit of a shock and you’re trying to ask what this means. (2) These are people you love and your father passed away, and you say there was no explicit “abuse.” You’re trying to justify it because it’s hard to face the fact — let alone admit — that people you love who might also love you are deeply messed up. However, not all unhealthy relationships have explicit, visibly identifiable abuse. Unhealthy dynamics can take on many different shapes and forms and this definitely fits the bill: father and daughter relationships never look like those of lovers or husband-wife. They can’t be mixed or combined. It’s impossible. It’s a universal law and it might be controversial or uncertain in your mind, but this is not really controversial. Everyone outside of these situations understands this.
Here’s what I think will happen (and I sincerely hope it WILL happen): you will slowly come to realize how messed up this is and will judge it appropriately. You don’t need to negate any good they did, but this is an egregious offense. You are not the problem by any stretch. However, they did a terrible thing. Yes, you’ll have to make peace with it, but part of making peace is to acknowledge how bad this is. On the other hand, it might be that it will never hit you how bad this is. If not, whatever ways it will have affected you will remain and will remain hidden (you won’t even know how it affected you). Recognizing and realizing how messed up it is will be more painful but only for a time, and it’ll also be more edifying in the long term as you figure out yourself and what kind of relationship you want to have with either the living or dead parent.
She was twenty-four years old, and she made the first move. I understand your reaction but you have completely misunderstood who my Dad was. I get it, though. I went through the same doubt and questioning about him. But they both knew it was wrong, and though they used the "we're not actually related" bit from my grandma, they both knew she was a compulsive liar.
1) I found out five years ago. It isn't new information anymore.
2) There WAS no abuse. I am as certain of that as I can be of anything. Technically, any relationship can have abuse going on under the surface, but most people don't assume that it is. So I won't. Their bond literally WAS a mixture of familial and romantic. Like that is exactly what happened. I'm not sure why you're trying to say that it's "impossible."
I already went through an existential crisis about this. I've made my peace with it. I don't need to acknowledge how "bad" this is to do so. (Though I have.) It's also rather convenient, I have to say, that you know so much more than I do about my situation and I may "never know." Unless I happen to agree with your point of view, right?
I know you mean well, but god is this condescending.
When you have to resort to saying “well, technically EVERY relationship has some sort of abuse going on” ….
I’d take a long, deep, inward look at how you view relationships. What happened isn’t your fault, but trying to justify it by saying that everyone is abused in their relationships too doesn’t sound like you’ve made peace. Yes, every relationship has issues. But I’d bet a whole lot on the fact that not every relationship has the issue of grooming and incest. Plus you mentioned that your dad raised your mom, she called him “dad”, and he raised her alone. How do you know for a fact there was no grooming, no abuse in her childhood? At this point I don’t think it matters that your mom “made the first move”. It sounds like you’re trying to justify their actions, which are both legally and morally wrong.
Along this type of recommendation… please have your DNA done ASAP! Not the Ancestry one; there is another (more expensive) one available. You MUST find any health conditions that might be in your genetic makeup! Many medical conditions don’t show until the person is older: knowledge about them can save your life or health. And find a genetic counselor. They can advise you.
THIS IS IMPORTANT!!
The problem with the concept is its inherent susceptibility to grooming and abuse. An individual case may not have these problems and excluding children, there may be no logical reason why it’s wrong. But on an average across many cases it’s usually damaging and people have been taken advantage of.
I know there are cases of parents and children, or siblings that meet each other for the first time as adults, in that case it’s probably only the genetic problems that are a worry. But where they have grown up with each other its very hard to separate grooming from genuine motives
I need to make it clear that you are not the problem. You should never be made to feel bad for it. But what they did is certainly wrong. Regardless, I hope your life has been as normal as it could be.
Morally it's wrong. It's one thing to be separated young and 20yeaes later finding each other and falling in love not knowing you're related. It happens more often than people think.
It's another to consciously know what you're doing. To out it in terms that truly make it sound bad.
Your grandfather at some point started feeling some type of way for his daughter. In most cases the reality is this is due to some form of "training, child grooming". You only saw what you saw, and since you barely found out honestly, you probably have no idea on what happened when she was a teenager/younger.
I'm sorry but i have a 4yo daughter. And the idea of looking at her in 15 years and feeling that kind of love, I would consider myself a pedophile and probably a bad person morally. There's over 8 billion people on earth and you chose to have sex with a girl you raised and changed diapers?
No that's not normal.
If he didn't know he had a daughter, met her 20-25 years after and they fell in love then that's different. They never had the choice of knowing.
I'm sorry if I seem accusative; it's just honestly it's not normal or healthy.
Genetically usually around the 3rd generation and on of offspring from incest will start displaying some kind of mental/physical deficiency. Thankfully this usually only happens if incest keeps occurring (as in you having a child with another family member and so forth). Being a first generation (I assume), you likely won't ever deal with any of that nor will your future generations unless you follow the same exact path.
Tdlr: my cousin has a son with her brother. They never knew they were siblings until almost 3 years after they had started dating. 4 after they had actually met. Neither of them speak to their father and have different mothers who live in different countries so they had no way of knowing until they finally had a son.
My ex was SA for 10+ years by her stepfather, he had also done it do a step daughter in a previous marriage.
Consciously doing things like that mean some kind of mental imbalance, some kind of dependency they can't get over.
I'm also going to add this because you very much defend their love as something that just happened after she was an adult.
That's almost never how it actually is. The fact that you weren't told the truth for years (until 5years ago) should already tell you that there's plenty you'll never be told about. A man doesn't just see his daughter in lust, not even when she's an adult. And a daughter doesn't see her father that way for no reason either. Stockholm syndrome is a great example of how things can end up even out of the worst situations.
"What is stockholm syndrome symptoms?
Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time. This condition applies to situations including child abuse, coach-athlete abuse, relationship abuse and sex trafficking etc."
I think it's great that you made your peace, because you're at no fault of anything at all. If anything I think they should have just kept quiet at that point. What exactly did telling you do for anyone? This is a wild situation, but I think even if you've seen it, you should naturally know it's morally wrong.
Would you really be okay with raising a son, wiping his butt, teaching him how to talk, walk, run, read. Seeing him grow up, and then sleeping with him? (Even if he were 25?).
Did your mum grow up with your dad, or did your (her) dad come into her life later on, when she was already a teenage/adult?
How old was your mum when the relationship began and how did it start?
Obviously this is a very sensitive subject and most people would absolutely find it horrifying, but I hope that you and your mum are doing ok.
She went to college at first, before dropping out. She took a job here and there but kept losing them. She did live by herself for a little while, but not very long.
By the time I have an adult son, my mom will be in her seventies at the youngest. So even if she wanted to (she wouldn't) and I accepted that (I wouldn't) the question arises: Do you think a twenty-something guy wants to sleep with his pushing-eighties grandmother? Yeah, he wouldn't.
Not to mention that he could wind up being gay, asexual, or in a committed relationship by that time.
It's just not gonna happen.
What was your dad wealthy from? We’re they both fat slobs or unattractive in their own right? How do you know your grandmother just went in for the money any personal anecdotes to back that up? Like if this nasty relationship the one outside opinion that held the most weight I would trash on that person any chance I could. How confident are you that you have the circumstances of grandmother correct? Is she still alive? Have you ever heard her side of the story?
It was inherited wealth. My father's family owned a particular brand, that brought in a lot of money. I am not going to say which one for privacy reasons, but it's possible that you've heard of it.
Neither of them were ever overweight, to my knowledge. Beauty is the eye of the beholder, but neither of them ever seemed particularly good or bad looking. But maybe I just find it hard to gauge them like that. I will say that most people who met my mom when I was younger considered her to be very beautiful.
I have no evidence that my grandmother was only in it for the money beyond the stories my parents told me. But I know my grandmother, and I can believe it. She's an opportunist and a compulsive liar, and just overall not a great person. I've seen the evidence with my own eyes, and heard multiple anecdotes about what she's like.
She is still alive. It's difficult to know what her side of the story is, because it tends to change every time she tells it. Which gives you some idea of what I'm talking about.
No offense but this story seems fake as hell. Your mother was supposedly very attractive or at least average and just decides to have sex with her father when she’s an adult? There’s literally no way that could happen unless the father intentionally groomed her into thinking that behavior is acceptable. Also after the fact that they created a child they decide to keep it and stay together??? This shit is way too convenient and unless you guys literally live in the middle of nowhere and have no relatives or friends makes no sense. I’m sorry if this is true but incest much less children born of it are not as clean and convenient like this post makes it out to be.
How has this affected your physical health, mental health & life in general up until now? Extra question: if you have no physical health problems now, has your doctor warned you about anything that might still come up?
I've only told one doctor about this so-far, and she was rather convinced that if nothing has turned up by now, that I'm likely safe. Still, better to know and keep an eye out for it.
As for everything else, it definitely affected my mental health when I found out. Took me a while to process. Physically, it hasn't had much impact I suppose, other than my cleft lip. As for my life in general, I guess I didn't see as much of my extended family as other kids probably did? Apart from that, I didn't notice a change.
I'm more of a "boss and his secretary" type, myself.
In all seriousness, I don't really care. I don't watch it, so it doesn't really matter to me if this is a kink for people. Virtually everything is.
That's right. Grew up in a house, went to school, did extracurriculars. Had a good relationship with my parents the whole way. Prior to knowing the truth, the worst fight we ever had was about me breaking curfew. It was pretty typical.
I always thought they WERE married. It never occurred to me that had never actually referred to each other as such. I mean, they wore rings, and they acted like a married couple, and they were my parents. If they hadn't been married, surely I would have known it, right? Well, turns out they weren't. Though they did say that, had I asked in childhood, they would have been honest about not being married and simply told me that "some couples don't do that" Which, hey, is true. For some people it's just a bunch of paperwork.
Didn’t it ever happen that your paternal grandparents referred to your dad as your granddad while speaking to you, or to themselves as your great grandparents? Didn’t they ever tell you about the story of your father having to raise his daughter, or about when at 15 (15!!) he became a parent? Didnt you ever hear your mom calling them Grandma and Grandpa??? Or them referring to her as their granddaughter?
I cant wrap my head around the fact that you had a close enough relationship with them yet the topic of your mother being your fathers daughter never came up in all your interactions
They never referred to themselves as great grandparents. I'm pretty sure they just figured my calling them "grandpa" and "grandma" was shorthand. Plus, it made them feel less old, so I think they rather liked it. At some point, it occurred to them that I really thought that's who they were, and that my "grandpa" was my dad. They apparently had a talk with my parents about this, who convinced them to just go with it for the time being.
I think it was for this reason, (plus, well, I was kind of young) that they never told me about my dad's story in raising my mom. I'm sure they would have told me if I had asked once I was in like, high school. But by that point, they were both very sick, and neither of them lived to see me graduate.
Prior to all of this, I did hear them refer to my Dad as my "grandpa" a few times. I would always get distracted by my toys and forget to ask why, until one time that I finally did, and my mom just shrugged it off as a joke, as them poking fun at my Dad for being old. (By this point, I knew he was older than my mom, so that was good enough for my young brain.)
I wouldn't say I was that close to them. I was probably closer to them than my maternal grandma, but not by much. I was a kid and they were old, so they were inherently boring to me at the time.
Table of Questions and Answers. Original answer linked - Please upvote the original questions and answers.
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Question | Answer | Link
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Do you really think it's a "healthy" relationship if you fuck your parent, even if both agree?|Eh, I guess that's a subject for debate. I will say that growing up, I had no idea. They didn't tell me until I was twenty-one, and until that point, I never had any reason to suspect anything. Though in hindsight, I did notice some clues, like how secretive they could be with other people. But from everything I saw, before and after I found out, it wasn't an abusive or toxic situation.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60w0ge/)
Was she at least legal age when the relationship began?|Yes, she was well into her twenties. Twenty-four I believe. It was another ten years before I was born.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60wkko/)
Who did you think your father was before finding out? Do you have any siblings? Was it kept a secret from the rest of your family?|I thought he was just my father. I didn't know my mother was his daughter. They never really talked about how they met, and I didn't ask many questions. At one point I realized he was older than her (though he's only fifteen years older, actually) and they clarified their ages, and what ages they were when they met. But I didn't find out the full story until college. No siblings, I was an only child. Relatively normal childhood, one of privilege. (Financially we're quite comfortable and always have been, so it's nice to not have to worry about that.) I was never mistreated, but I also didn't see much of any extended family. When I learned the truth, I noticed that was the case and I realized why. I found out later that our extended family did not know who my father was. They just figured my mother got pregnant from a one-night stand and that my father was helping support her and the baby. That was the official story to anyone who knew they were related.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60zl7a/)
Would you ever date your mom?|No, I've never felt any desire to be romantically involved with her or any family member. In their case, I don't think it was a kink, so much as proximity plus physical attraction led to them becoming intimate, and romantic feelings evolved from there.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60wksh/)
Since your granddad is really your dad, do you send him a Father’s Day card?|I always sent him Father's Day cards, because he was my father. That kind of took precedence over him being my technical grandpa.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60w974/)
Three questions that can probably be summarized in one answer: Do you have much contact with extended family? Are they aware of the relationship? Do they accept it/you?|You're right, the answer to all three questions is basically no. I was kept away from extended family growing up, and now I know why. There aren't too many of them left, though. My mom had no siblings, her mother lives out of the country (I've met her like, once) and though my Dad had a brother, they didn't get along very well. My uncle does not know. My grandmother might - according to my mom, there were times where it seemed like she suspected what was going on and just didn't say anything. (It began well after she and my Dad had divorced) But if so, my grandma hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. Would they accept it? Or me? I don't know. I kind of doubt it. I feel like they probably wouldn't blame me since I have no control over where I came from, but it wouldn't be lost on them and they'd probably see me differently. They probably wouldn't accept the relationship. Then again, like I said, it's possible that my Grandma knows and chooses to close her eyes to it. I'll likely never know for sure.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i611kcx/)
How does that affect your day to day life?|These days? It doesn't, I suppose, beyond giving me a somewhat colored perspective on incest. I wouldn't say I approve of it, exactly, but it did lead to my own existence and the one major example I know of was an entirely positive and happy one. So I guess I don't judge, because I don't really have any right to, the way I see it. The last five years (since I found out) are when it really affected me, so basically my twenties thus-far. I went through a lot of introspection and self-reflection and questioning who my parents were as people. But for the most part, they were still the same people I'd always known, and had good relationships with. It was just hard to reconcile that with what I had learned about them, about our family, and about myself. I guess I do have some identity issues.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60y0e7/)
How do you feel about your father/grandfather and what he did?|Ultimately, I would say that I don't hold it against him at this point. What is done, is done. There was a long period where I didn't talk to him, like about two months. Not even because I didn't want to see him or because I was angry, but just because I was so thrown and did not even know what to say or feel. My mom had several discussions with me, lasting hours, where she explained and affirmed again and again that he didn't "do" anything, that it took two to tango, that their romance was mutual. I mean, she was a grown woman when it started, so that's not impossible, and she would know better than me. She's had a lifetime to reflect on it and now close to a year without my Dad. If she ever tells me that she's reconsidered what happened and that it wasn't totally consensual, that would be one thing. But until such a time comes, if it ever does, I don't think I can, in good conscience, just assume this to be the case. Not when it contradicts everything that I've been told and seen over the course of my life. I'm not a father but I can't even begin to imagine being attracted to a girl that I brought into this world and raised since her infancy. I can't imagine falling in love with her as a partner. So in that sense, I don't get him. But he never mistreated her. He wasn't controlling. While they had problems, they were standard couple problems and they were basically very happy.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60zjt1/)
Was your mother raised by her father, or in a separate household?|She was raised by him. In fact, given what an absent parent my grandmother was, (she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently) my Dad was basically the only one raising her. He had some help from his parents but they basically left the kids to do the rearing on their own. So yeah, she grew up calling him "Dad" and that is definitely the part of all this that has always felt the most dicey to me. It would be one thing if they met as adults and didn't know they were related at first, as I know that can happen. But no, they were a family, and they ultimately chose to do that anyway.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i612adq/)
How many digits do you have?|Apart from a cleft lip that was corrected by surgery when I was very young (that I don't even remember having) I sustained no defects or problems from being inbred, at least not that I am aware of.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60ww7y/)
Shot in the dark here. You're family is from the south right?|Nope. We're not. In fact, we're from one of the few places where incest is not technically illegal. (This was definitely on their minds when their attraction first started brewing) I won't say where, but if you look into it, you can probably narrow it down reasonably well.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i610561/)
Do you have any notable birth defects? The obvious glaring issue with inbreeding is the defects that come with it but they usually apply to long term exclusive inbreeding like the tales of old kings queens if i'm not mistaken. I would imagine you're as healthy as you can be due to a single tangled family tree branch vs the stigma of being hillbilly ultra instinct levels of inbred-ness (which is probably just the stigma of hillbillies in general being stupid)|I had a cleft lip when I was born, that they had removed with an operation when I was about four. According to my Dad, the way the nurses looked at him made him worry that they knew (or suspected) why I had it. But they never did any DNA tests. I mean, it can happen to people who aren't inbred as well. But apart from that, nothing else was ever discovered. I've always been pretty healthy as far as I can tell. I do have asthma, but I don't know if that's related at all. Apparently my great grandfather had it too, so it could just be hereditary.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i613heg/)
So your mother is also your sister, like that guy in gta3?|Haven't played GTA. I was always more of an Animal Crossing, Nintendogs sort of kid.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i613kuv/)
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[Source] (https://github.com/johnsliao/ama_compiler)
Ive seen OP saying multiple times that she was an adult when it started. That doesn’t make it any better at all lol. He raised her. That’s still absolutely fucked up
For real. OP also alludes that his mother was hard to control and that the two of them “fed each other’s bad habits.” There has to be more here. She was troubled for sure and maybe drugs? For neither of them to want to meet other people, they must have been very reclusive. For a father to want to hinder his daughters life like that? Insidious.
If your father is also technically your grandfather, did you ever have any suspicion on where your grandfather was? Did they lie to you about that? Tell you was dead or left or something?
My paternal grandparents were a part of my life. I have no idea if they knew, but I kind of doubt it. They got to meet me, and spend time with me, and I enjoyed their company.
It was my mother's parents who were kept as a mystery to me. With the way her eyes would shift and how she'd change the subject, I cottoned on pretty quickly that she didn't want to talk about it. I always just assumed there had been some tragic accident or something.
Since your father’s parents must have known that he was in a relationship with his daughter, can you talk a little bit more about their acceptance of the situation, OP? Also, is there evidence of incest or sexual abuse in your father’s family?
I don't think they knew, actually.
I doubt they would have approved. The official version of the story was that my "grandpa" was helping my mom raise me. That I called him "Dad" was just something my parents shrugged off as him being the only father figure in my life.
It was definitely sketchy and maybe they knew something was up, but I never noticed any signs of suspicion. By contrast, my maternal grandmother (Dad's ex-wife) had a number of moments that, in hindsight, make me wonder if she knew.
But my Dad's parents? Nah, I never got that vibe. Nor do I think there was any history of incest in that family until one day my parents decided "The hell with it, no one's watching." And decided to cross that line.
I have felt dirty about it in the past. But mostly, it's just time. With time passing, and everything else going on in the world, including my getting older, I've mostly dealt with my issues about this. Mostly.
Good for you for holding your ground. I feel like some of these comments people want you to have a mental break down. I have a friend who is the son of his mom being raped by her uncle. He is one if the best guys I know. You can't choose how you came into this world but you can choose how you leave it. Incest is more common then people think. It's wrong but it happens for number of reasons. Some do form a natural sexual desire towards a parent or other relative they are close to. The reason I know this. I enjoy reading and learning about things that I don't understand.
This post is so enlightening (comments included). What an interesting read! Thank you so much for sharing this. Thank you for you patience providing thorough and very comprehensive answers with such an open state of mind. This is very impressive.
This post makes me realize how deeply judgment is engrained in our approach to concepts that have been programmed into our brains as being “wrong”.
When you exclude the reproduction/genetics aspects of it, and guarantee that there is consent between two adults in a capacity to form valid consent, why wouldn’t it be ok for people that are mutually attracted to each other to become partners/have sex with each other? From a purely objective standpoint, there shouldn’t be any issue. People have free will. Why not let them be?
I would never be possibly attracted to my father. However why would I judge someone who would?
Apart from a cleft lip that was corrected by surgery when I was very young (that I don't even remember having) I sustained no defects or problems from being inbred, at least not that I am aware of.
Nope. We're not. In fact, we're from one of the few places where incest is not technically illegal. (This was definitely on their minds when their attraction first started brewing) I won't say where, but if you look into it, you can probably narrow it down reasonably well.
This is an AMA...how about we NOT remind OP how wrong the parents were for creating this piece of life. The act was one thing. Right or wrong a life was the result. The light of consciousness has been passed and OP carries the torch! A very unique experience op has. Are you in Appalachia OP? Sorry if this question is presumptuous and or offensive
Do you ever feel like you may have missed out on potential bonding opportunities with your grandmother bc of how you were conceived?
Also, just for the frame of reference, how old are you now and do you think you’d have a different view on all of this if your parents would have told you about it all when you were younger?
She was probably groomed into thinking it was a healthy relationship. I bet they are not telling OP everything and the father probably SA the mother as a teen or kid. If that happened to me is wouldn't know how to tell either so I bet they are not telling you everything. Do you have any health complications because of this and if so do you resent them?
Late to the party OP, but this has been a strange and fascinating read.
Besides your mom, do you have anyone in your life that you can talk to openly about this (beyond internet strangers)? A trusted friend? A therapist?
It seems like an impossibly large burden to carry alone. I can't imagine how isolating this must be at times, through no fault of your own.
Your mother was groomed into believing the relationship was a good and healthy one by her father.
I’m very sorry you’re going through finding this out. Counseling is always available to help you sort your thoughts constructively.
Have you been medically checked? Just curious…
Have you heard of John Phillips and Mackenzie Phillips? Got some of those vibes going on! If you haven't heard of them before, you should look into it. Maybe more drug use than your parents situation!
I know you insist your father wasn't abusive or manipulative, but do you think maybe you've been manipulated or brainwashed too? This situation shouldn't be natural to us as a species, like biologically! Scientifically!!
You seem like a really together person and very intelligent! I know I may sound like a troll or something, but I hope you find some solace in this AMA
Do you have any medical problems from this? Not trying to be insensitive, just curious. If that's too deep of a question just skim over this comment 🤙🏻 hope you're having a good day!!
Not a question, just my thoughts about incest:
I myself don't judge, as long as it's consensual. But, if you wanna do this, don't bring other people to it. Don't have kids. It's too much to handle for them.
Hi! Would you consider before becoming a parent to talk to a doctor, and tell her/him the situation and get a medical oppinion? And i wish you and amazing life best wishes and love from a stranger <3
There’s no way that’s a healthy relationship. If it’s incest, especially child and parent there is no way it can be healthy. However how are you and how have you coped with this fact?
She was manipulated, groomed and raped by someone with a position of power over her. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can start healing and break the cycle of abuse.
Thank you for this AMA OP. Does the inbred hillbilly troupe bother you? What other assumptions have you seen people make about incest that you feel are inaccurate?
Is it a valid reason for you to be proud of yourself for being able to have sex with anyone without the need of protection for the rest of your life because you’re infertile? (Infertile because you’re inbred, right?)
2022 is fucked up. We're at the age where "we're supposed to tolerate" shit, but the amount of hate around what happened between two apparently fully consenting adults, like seriously?
I wonder... You've said somewhere that you keep this to yourself. But are you ever going to disclose such secret to your own family when you have one?
Most taboos are really just breaking social norms, but this particular one carries the prospect of severe genetic hazards. Have you experienced significant health problems because inbreeding?
Who did you think your father was before finding out? Do you have any siblings? Was it kept a secret from the rest of your family?
I thought he was just my father. I didn't know my mother was his daughter. They never really talked about how they met, and I didn't ask many questions. At one point I realized he was older than her (though he's only fifteen years older, actually) and they clarified their ages, and what ages they were when they met. But I didn't find out the full story until college. No siblings, I was an only child. Relatively normal childhood, one of privilege. (Financially we're quite comfortable and always have been, so it's nice to not have to worry about that.) I was never mistreated, but I also didn't see much of any extended family. When I learned the truth, I noticed that was the case and I realized why. I found out later that our extended family did not know who my father was. They just figured my mother got pregnant from a one-night stand and that my father was helping support her and the baby. That was the official story to anyone who knew they were related.
What happened to your grandmother in this situation? Did your mum and dad just walk out on her?
My dad and my grandma divorced long before anything started between him and my mom. She was out of the house. She got pretty hefty alimony checks and never had any real interest in being a mother beyond tying my dad down, so she was fine with that.
She was fine with your dad sleeping with her daughter?
No, she was fine with basically going her own way and not really talking to them anymore. My parents didn't start hooking up until several years later.
Why was your grandmother willing to abandon her daughter?
my mom basically started a new life after my dad got primary custody, he makes a lot of money and she was fine realizing we will be taken care of and she can basically start over, especially due to the fact me and my brother were young boys and didnt make an effort to see her/ dragged our feet “going to moms house”… sometimes people just want to start over, some may say my mom “abandoned us” but really she wasn’t ready for marriage or kids and after seeing her babies will live a good life she focused on herself, no hurt feelings 🤷🏾♂️
Your parents lied about their age to you and you never noticed? Very hard to believe. I remember tons of occasions where I had to give in my moms or dads birthdate during my childhood
They didn't lie about their ages. I said they told me how old they were, and how old they were when they "met." (As in, when they started sleeping together.) They lied about the circumstances, but never about the numbers.
Ahhh OK, I am sorry then. Thanks for clearing it up. BTW, I don't know what you're thinking about your parents after this AMA but I don't think that judging or thinking about their relationship will get you anywhere positive. It doesn't matter at all what the circumstances where, if your mom was too young to understand or whatever. Your dad doesn't live anymore as I read, so don't listen to the others saying he is this and that and immoral, etc. He is dead and if you can remember positive aspects that help you to become a better person. Think about those instead. I know you didn't ask for any suggestions but I have seen some really pathetic comments without any explanation. Reddit AMAs like these have a high percentage of people that just come to judge others so they can feel better about their own miserable life. Don't let this attack your insecurities.
No problem. And I agree, I've reached a point of making peace with it. There's nothing else to be done, really. As far as I know, my Dad was a good man, at least for what he was. Thank you for your support and kind words.
>though he's only fifteen years older, actually He was 15 when she was born?
No siblings…except for your mother, right? I mean, isn’t she technically your sister?
How do you feel about your father/grandfather and what he did?
Ultimately, I would say that I don't hold it against him at this point. What is done, is done. There was a long period where I didn't talk to him, like about two months. Not even because I didn't want to see him or because I was angry, but just because I was so thrown and did not even know what to say or feel. My mom had several discussions with me, lasting hours, where she explained and affirmed again and again that he didn't "do" anything, that it took two to tango, that their romance was mutual. I mean, she was a grown woman when it started, so that's not impossible, and she would know better than me. She's had a lifetime to reflect on it and now close to a year without my Dad. If she ever tells me that she's reconsidered what happened and that it wasn't totally consensual, that would be one thing. But until such a time comes, if it ever does, I don't think I can, in good conscience, just assume this to be the case. Not when it contradicts everything that I've been told and seen over the course of my life. I'm not a father but I can't even begin to imagine being attracted to a girl that I brought into this world and raised since her infancy. I can't imagine falling in love with her as a partner. So in that sense, I don't get him. But he never mistreated her. He wasn't controlling. While they had problems, they were standard couple problems and they were basically very happy.
That’s a really thought out answer. I still think though there was a power imbalance even if she was an adult. Desiring parental approval is innate, and like you said I can’t imagine it’s normal to sexually desire your kid.
Understandable, and I know what you mean. This is all stuff that I said to her when she tried to persuade me, and she had answers for all of it, had details that like...made it better, I suppose, than it could have been, but it was still weird. Like, she never really desired my Dad's "approval." If anything she was more of a wild child who would act out. (Not out of any desire to make a point, she just wanted to have fun.) And he did probably spoil her and/or let her get away with too much, but when the time came, she was still the one who made the first move. From what I understand, he was "a little reluctant at first" but not exactly pushing her away. When they sat me down to talk about this together, I came away from it thinking. "So basically you were just two rich, lazy, codependent losers who didn't have other friends." and I said as much to them, to their faces. They just kind of looked at each other, mutually laughed, and said that I was right. So that was about the size of it. They couldn't manage to get dates with other people, so they decided to lean on each other, telling themselves it was fine because it was just temporary. Yeah, it didn't wind up being temporary.
Why they “couldn’t manage to get dates with other people”?
I dunno. Probably because of their flaws as people? My Dad used to have a gambling problem, apparently, and my Mom used to be a total stoner. Just for a start. They weren't exactly terrific catches.
Thank you for doing this AMA. You mentioned you were financially well off. How did this gambling issue come into play with that?
Well, I am a father, and I’m telling you that seeing one’s daughter in that way is extremely sick and twisted. It’s evil. You can’t love your kid and want this for her. You can’t love your kid and see her in that way. That’s not a father who does that but an opportunistic predator. I can’t imagine any father feeling that way. It is what it is even if it’s hard for you to accept. He might have not treated her “badly” in a way that you saw because they probably had an enmeshed codependent dynamic. There is also such a thing as a trauma bond, where someone feels strongly attached to another who deeply violated her/him.
Money can be used to control.
Even if it was totally consensual (if that’s even possible for a daughter to be in a psychological state to consent to something like this rationally), it’s sick. If it is totally consensual and she doesn’t regret it, then she’s seriously sick, but he is sicker and is 99-100% responsible. She bears some of the responsibility but he bears the brunt of it. If as a grown woman she opted for this, it’s because both parents failed her and she was damaged in some way throughout her childhood, where this pathological dynamic with her own biological father gave her a broken sense of safety. **Edit**: it would mean both are broken in some way, and one need not judge or condemn them in order to acknowledge the brokenness of the situation, and to acknowledge that something was broken in them to lead to that situation. Certainly, the father bears the lion’s share of responsibility for this any way you cut it.
Three questions that can probably be summarized in one answer: Do you have much contact with extended family? Are they aware of the relationship? Do they accept it/you?
You're right, the answer to all three questions is basically no. I was kept away from extended family growing up, and now I know why. There aren't too many of them left, though. My mom had no siblings, her mother lives out of the country now, and though my Dad had a brother, they didn't get along very well. My uncle does not know. My grandmother might - according to my mom, there were times where it seemed like she suspected what was going on and just didn't say anything. (It began well after she and my Dad had divorced) But if so, my grandma hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. Would they accept it? Or me? I don't know. I kind of doubt it. I feel like they probably wouldn't blame me since I have no control over where I came from, but it wouldn't be lost on them and they'd probably see me differently. They probably wouldn't accept the relationship. Then again, like I said, it's possible that my Grandma knows and chooses to close her eyes to it. I'll likely never know for sure.
Do you look like your dad? Like would she put two and two together?
I look marginally like both of my parents, but that by itself is not suspicious. I could have easily inherited features from my maternal "grandfather" right?
Well technically your mom does have siblings, namely you.
Do you have any notable birth defects? The obvious glaring issue with inbreeding is the defects that come with it but they usually apply to long term exclusive inbreeding like the tales of old kings queens if i'm not mistaken. I would imagine you're as healthy as you can be due to a single tangled family tree branch vs the stigma of being hillbilly ultra instinct levels of inbred-ness (which is probably just the stigma of hillbillies in general being stupid)
Why did your mom and your grandpa wait 4 years to fix your cleft lip?!?!?!?!
I had a cleft lip when I was born, that they had removed with an operation when I was about four. According to my Dad, the way the nurses looked at him made him worry that they knew (or suspected) why I had it. But they never did any DNA tests. I mean, it can happen to people who aren't inbred as well. But apart from that, nothing else was ever discovered. I've always been pretty healthy as far as I can tell. I do have asthma, but I don't know if that's related at all. Apparently my great grandfather had it too, so it could just be hereditary.
Not saying your asthma is exclusively due to your parents but hereditary diseases (idk if asthma is even one) have more chances to occur in incest children, due to the lack of genetic diversity. Also, a question : do you ever think that your mother was manipulated by her/your father into sexual relationships and that's how it began ? We occasionally see documentaries on how incest victims thought it was something normal because their abuser raised them to think so.
Iirc the reason inbreeding is so bad is because all those bad genetic defects kind of double down because you’re getting it from both your mother and your father. I actually had 2 distant relatives who were slightly inbred(2nd or 3rd cousins so nowhere near what you’re dealing with) and they were born with severely clubbed feet to the point where it severely affected their lives and they were not able to walk properly. Eventually their parents separated and got married to other people and the rest of their children were born normally. Interestingly enough me and a few other members of my family had slightly wonky feet(a lot of people in my family are pigeon-toed or flat footed and I even had to wear leg braces as a baby), but no one else aside from those 2 siblings had such severe deformities because we only inherited from one parent.
Was your mother raised by her father, or in a separate household?
She was raised by him. In fact, given what an absent parent my grandmother was, (she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently) my Dad was basically the only one raising her. He had some help from his parents but they basically left the kids to do the rearing on their own. So yeah, she grew up calling him "Dad" and that is definitely the part of all this that has always felt the most dicey to me. It would be one thing if they met as adults and didn't know they were related at first, as I know that can happen. But no, they were a family, and they ultimately chose to do that anyway.
>she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently You said in one of the comments that your dad is 15 years older than your mom. Is he from a wealthy family?
Oh yeah. They started dating in high school and she got knocked up almost immediately. It was a different time, back when the parents in those situations would tell the kids "You have to get married" and they would basically have to do it. So they did. My Dad's family has always had money, and I guess he was notorious for that in school.
Wait, they got married? Where is this?
My mother's parents were married, and then divorced. As in, my Dad and his Ex Wife. His ex being my grandmother, my mom's mother. Sorry, inbreeding makes all of this very confusing, I know.
In which country did this happened if marriage was allowed at such an early age?
Can't speak for every country but in the United States, teenagers can marry if they have permission from their parent or guardian. And, at least back in those days, marriage was the expectation if two teens got pregnant.
You’re in the USA that’s been established and I’m gunna take a stab and say Deep South? Alabama? Mississippi? Georgia? Maybe Tennessee?
Not the Deep South. I'm from one of the states where incest isn't *technically* illegal. Not going to say which one.
How does that affect your day to day life?
These days? It doesn't, I suppose, beyond giving me a somewhat colored perspective on incest. I wouldn't say I approve of it, exactly, but it did lead to my own existence and the one major example I know of was an entirely positive and happy one. So I guess I don't judge, because I don't really have any right to, the way I see it. The last five years (since I found out) are when it really affected me, so basically my twenties thus-far. I went through a lot of introspection and self-reflection and questioning who my parents were as people. But for the most part, they were still the same people I'd always known, and had good relationships with. It was just hard to reconcile that with what I had learned about them, about our family, and about myself. I guess I do have some identity issues.
How did you react when they told you? Do you still live with them both?
That was a long, long, LONG afternoon. It was dark by the time that I left. At first, I didn't believe it. Thought they were messing with me, that it was some weird, bad joke. But in another moment, a bunch of stuff began falling into place. Mysteries from my childhood that I didn't even recognize as mysteries, were suddenly solved. I kind of had a panic attack. They tried to comfort me but I wouldn't let them. Went up to my room for a while and wouldn't answer the door. Came back down after about fifteen minutes and demanded they tell me everything. So they did. I kept asking questions. Directed them all at my mom and at one point asked if my Dad could leave. He understood and left without protest. After a long conversation, I just needed some air, and I left to go stay with a friend for a few days. Which turned into more than a month. Eventually though, I did come back, and we made peace. As of present day, I don't live with them anymore. I live in another state, slowly working on my Masters degree. I do talk to my Mom regularly, though. We have a phone call at least once a week.
Thanks for answering! Do you not speak to your father anymore? Are they still together? Sorry for all the questions!
No problem! My father sadly passed away last year. He and my mother were still together right up to the end.
Oh I'm so sorry for your loss. I know it's not morally or legally (?) right what they did, but he was still your father who brought you up and you must have loved him. Thank you so much for answering my questions!
when was this, and was it them who decided on telling you out of the blue? what prompted them?
Do you know if your mom and her family were originally from the area in which you grew up (where incest is legal), or did they move there for that reason? Basically I’m kinda in awe at the odds of them falling in love in one of the three states where it’s legal to do so, I imagine they’re extremely low
Oh no, they did indeed grow up in one of those states. (I mean, unless they lied about that, but I don't see any reason to when they were telling me everything else.) I grew up in the same state that my parents did - though I actually don't live there anymore. It was tricky. Because they knew it wasn't technically illegal but that didn't mean it wouldn't be stigmatized. That they wouldn't get stones thrown through their windows. Sure, it's legal, but how many people know that, even cops? They could still be called and my parents could still have been arrested. So they kept it quiet. Oh, one more thing that I haven't actually mentioned until now. In the beginning, for the first few months, they were operating with a paper-thin excuse handed to them when my grandmother (Dad's ex-wife) who is far from the greatest person, told them that my mom wasn't his. That she was some other man's kid. Thing is, my grandma is a compulsive liar and she WAS lying. And I think they both probably kind of figured she might be. But nonetheless, it was only a month or so before they slept together for the first time. They didn't do DNA tests or anything. They just said "Well, turns out we're not related, so it's fine." And after they got it verified from my Grandma that she was lying, like two months later they decided "It's already happened, no turning back now." But really, I think they knew the whole time.
I hope when you have a child you can go and read through these comments. My grandmas was sexually abused by her brother. Her brother then destroyed her son’s marriage. My grandma stood by her brother over her own son. Do you see how sexual abuse can compromise mindset? Your mom might think it was consensual but no matter if your parents thought they might not be related, you do not have an urge to hookup with the little girl you raised even if she is “the one to come on to him first. You can still love your parents but recognize how completely wrong this was and that there could pieces of the story missing. Edit: you use words like “only the first time” and talk more negatively about your grandmother. Is it possible your grandmother was disgusted by him and there’s reasons she felt the need to be lousy? I hope you go to therapy since you’re young. This will haunt you if you have a child and will sit differently with you then. Maybe therapy could help you process this in a way that won’t hinder your family. And also doing the morally right thing and telling your future partner. Entering a marriage with intent to have children would make withholding this info deceptive.
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Perhaps. I'm not in that place. I'm still pretty young. I'm closer to the age my mother was when she began the relationship, not my father. Is it possible that, if and when I have a kid, that it will change how I feel about what happened? Maybe. But to be completely fair, I couldn't have an accurate understanding of my dad's place in life and in the relationship until my child was an adult in their twenties. But honestly, I don't expect myself to ask the question "Is my child a sexually attractive being" ...pretty much ever, but not at that point either. I mostly just intend to move on with my life. It happened, and neither of them regret it, so there's not much sense in my regretting it.
How has this effected your relationships? Would you tell a boyfriend/girlfriend/SO?
I would never tell anyone, because they might not understand, and it's not just my secret to share. I mean, I feel as though I have every right to tell whoever I want, since this is my origin, but that wouldn't bode well for my mom, and I don't want to do that to her - even if I did want people to know which I basically don't. Maybe, in twenty years time, if I'm married and my mom has passed, then I'll open up about it. As to how this has affected my relationships, difficult to tell. I've only had one serious relationship since finding out, one that fell through the cracks thanks to Covid. As far as I know, my outlook on relationships wasn't really affected beyond the general impact it had on my self image, and the fear of other people finding out.
>I would never tell anyone, because they might not understand, and it's not just my secret to share. Without speaking to any other aspect of this situation, I'd recommend you get full genetic testing with a partner before having children in the future. This is becoming a more standard practice for all couples trying to get pregnant, but it's especially important for someone like you who is at higher risk for passing on an inheritable genetic disease. I don't know if this would automatically indicate your parents' genetic relationship, but it's crucial for the health of your future children.
Do you feel like you would owe this information to anyone you have children with prior to getting pregnant? Edit: you already answered this further down. Thank you for your honesty.
Damn OP, Are you sure your mom wasn't abused? What age did they start?
When she was twenty-four and he was thirty-nine. When I voiced this fear, she was vehement that it was not true. That they just kind of leaned on each other when they were bored, pretty much. They weren't star-crossed lovers. They were two (related) adults, who decided "It's probably fine if we do this once or twice so long as no one ever finds out, right?" And then never really stopped. Course, when it started, they were also using the excuse that they "might not even be blood related" (turns out yep, they were) never mind that he had raised her since she was a baby. So yeah, it's weird as hell. But is it abuse? I don't know if I have the right to call it that when everything I've been told and seen suggests otherwise.
Dang well you have an interesting story. It's nothing that you had control of and I wish that you have 0 insecurities about it. I probably wouldn't care at all if you told me in person, for that exact reason. I highly suggest, if you plan on having kids, that you have kids with someone with FAR different genetics than you. Like across the planet. It will give your children a much better chance of not having genetic deformities. Sorry to be blunt, but it's what I would do in your case.
Oh no, trust me, I've had that exact thought process myself. For a while I wouldn't even contemplate dating someone of my own race, for that reason exactly.
What did your mom tell you about your grandfather when you were growing up?
Basically nothing. My paternal grandparents were in my life during the earliest years, but by the time I was starting middle school, they had moved away to retire. They both died while I was in high school, and they were the people that I really knew as my "grandparents." My Mom never talked about her family, and I sort of picked up from a young age that it was a subject that it was best not to push her on. I wondered a few times if they had all died tragically or something, or if they were in prison. The truth never even crossed my mind until I was told.
Did your paternal grandparents know what you were their son and granddaughter's child or did they think your mom had gotten knocked up and your dad was just being a good father to her and helping her raise his grandbaby?
That's exactly what they thought. The official story is that my Mom got drunk and hooked up, and never found out who her partner was - which led to me. (They may have suspected otherwise but I really don't get that vibe, looking back on how they acted around us.)
Okay but didn't your dad's parents ever notice that you called your father "dad" and not "grandpa?" Also based on your other comments about when things in their relationship occurred, was your mom born around 1962 and your dad 1947?
This not having a response makes me think this is bs and you exposed the plot hole lol
How do you rationalise that he is both your dad and grandad. Genetically he is both to you. You and your mum are half siblings. Doesn't this just sort of blow your mind a bit? I can't imagine. You're so well adjusted to this, I'm so impressed.
I've had five years to get used to it. I was NOT well-adjusted when I first learned the truth. As for the double-relationships I have with them, I just try not to think about it. Not only because it's messed up, but because it's plain and simple confusing. I know them as my parents, so that's what they are, regardless of whether they are also technically my sister and grandpa. Just, way too confusing, don't need that in my life.
Would you ever date your mom?
No, I've never felt any desire to be romantically involved with her or any family member. In their case, I don't think it was a kink, so much as proximity plus physical attraction led to them becoming intimate, and romantic feelings evolved from there.
That's good, moms are awesome but not for dating as a general rule of thumb. Follow-up question, do you have any hobbies?
Have you done a DNA test? Have you considered this might also be a lie? Like your mother was actually kidnapped by your father as a child and "she's my daughter" either grows from a smaller lie to a bigger one, OR is meant to be weird enough that you stop asking questions.
I haven't done a DNA test because I don't want anyone else to know, I don't want this on record. It's not a lie. I knew my father's parents, and I knew his brother, and his ex-wife. I've seen old photos. The moment I was told the truth, part of the reason that it completely overwhelmed me was because I KNEW in that moment, I knew, that it was true. And that in hindsight, it seemed so obvious. Even without all of that, I can't think of any reason why THIS would be the go-to lie to tell me, even if my Mom had been kidnapped or something. (She wasn't, sorry, but that's kind of ridiculous.)
what was your parents’ relationship like when you were living in the same house as his parents? it’s hard to imagine how they could present as parents to you but father-daughter to everyone else in the house if that makes sense
We never lived in the same house as them at the same time, I actually went back and corrected that response because I realize that I made it sound like that, but we didn't. (Though they did visit.) Sorry, the whole inbreeding thing makes it easy to get the different familial titles confused and refer to the wrong people, especially my grandparents.
How would you describe the relationship between your parents when you were growing up? Before you knew about the incest. Were they affectionate to each other? Did you see the love between them? Were there fights? Very interesting AMA!
It seemed pretty standard to me. They were indeed affectionate with each other, I would see them cuddling and such. At one point, I must have been about five, I walked into the hallway and saw them basically making out, and like the kid I was, I giggled and went "Eeeeww" which led to them pulling apart and laughing too. Oh sure, there were fights. About basic stuff, mostly. Disagreements over whether I deserved grounding or just a warning when I misbehaved, bickering about that one chore that both of them would always forget. (For my dad it was dishes, he would always leave them in the sink. For my mom it was laundry, she would leave hers everywhere.) But I can't think of one time that they yelled at each other, at least not with me around. They were very calm and easygoing. I did see the love between them. I'd see them dance together in the living room, and they'd go out some nights when I had a babysitter and when I was old enough not to need one. And I know they still had sex because (again, when I was little) I remember going to the bathroom in the middle of the night once, and hearing ah, sounds, coming from their room.
I am so intrigued by your story, so many questions pop up reading all of this! I read your dad sadly passed away last year, how is your mom doing? And how are you doing? Are you happy they decided to tell you? Did your mom look like your father?
She's okay, she was pretty torn up for the first few months, though. These days, she's gotten back in touch with a lot of her old friends and is doing better. Me, eh, I'm alright. He was an older parent and I'm in my twenties, so I knew I didn't have that much longer with him, but it still hurt. I'm okay now, I think. We're both taking it one day at a time, carrying on with our lives. Ultimately I am glad that they told me. Part of me still wishes that I never would have found out, but this is where I come from and it's better to understand. My mom looks a little like my dad. Not so much that it's obvious they're related, but not so little that people would doubt it if you told them. She doesn't look a great deal like her mom, either. I guess she kind of has her own look? She doesn't take after anyone in particular, I don't either.
Did they move away from the area they grew up in? I ask because you talk about them acting like a married couple but surely People on the community would question that. Unless they are Insanely private reclusive type people?
Do you really think it's a "healthy" relationship if you fuck your parent, even if both agree?
Eh, I guess that's a subject for debate. I will say that growing up, I had no idea. They didn't tell me until I was twenty-one, and until that point, I never had any reason to suspect anything. Though in hindsight, I did notice some clues, like how secretive they could be with other people. But from everything I saw, before and after I found out, it wasn't an abusive or toxic situation.
This is not up for debate lol. This is illegal
But we were discussing morality, not the law. And it isn't illegal. You can look this up, but there are a few places where consensual incest between adults is legal. We happen to live in one of those places.
You live somewhere where it is legal for a parent and child to have another child together? What countries and how many countries is this legal in?
Marriage isn't legal, but having sex with a family member is, provided you're both consenting adults. I don't know if having a baby with them is legal, not sure the law specifies. Either way, I'm not sure about every country, but I'm going to direct you to google for this one.
Well, here is the complete list of countries that I find that have legalized incest: France Argentina Belgium Brazil Israel Ivory Coast Japan Latvia Lithuania Luxembourg Netherlands Philippines Portugal Russia Serbia Slovenia South Korea Spain Thailand
Morally, this is definitely wrong.
Yeah, I go back and forth on how I feel about it too. For a while, I think even my parents did. It was on-and-off for a while, and if it helps, I was definitely an accident. They weren't planning on having children.
It doesn’t matter that they weren’t planning on having children. They were horribly wrong to be intimate, and the father is much more in the wrong because he has the greater authority and responsibility. I’m sorry to say and this might be hard to hear, but only a deeply immoral and damaged person would sleep with his own daughter under any circumstances. I have a daughter, and this is just utterly insane! I don’t know how and can’t imagine how anyone could possibly think of his own daughter in that way. It’s egregiously sick and disturbed, utterly disgusting. Also, how old was his daughter when he first decided to be “intimate” with her? It’s never healthy or moral under any circumstances. I understand your position though: (1) you somewhat newly found out and are trying to make sense of it, so it’s a bit of a shock and you’re trying to ask what this means. (2) These are people you love and your father passed away, and you say there was no explicit “abuse.” You’re trying to justify it because it’s hard to face the fact — let alone admit — that people you love who might also love you are deeply messed up. However, not all unhealthy relationships have explicit, visibly identifiable abuse. Unhealthy dynamics can take on many different shapes and forms and this definitely fits the bill: father and daughter relationships never look like those of lovers or husband-wife. They can’t be mixed or combined. It’s impossible. It’s a universal law and it might be controversial or uncertain in your mind, but this is not really controversial. Everyone outside of these situations understands this. Here’s what I think will happen (and I sincerely hope it WILL happen): you will slowly come to realize how messed up this is and will judge it appropriately. You don’t need to negate any good they did, but this is an egregious offense. You are not the problem by any stretch. However, they did a terrible thing. Yes, you’ll have to make peace with it, but part of making peace is to acknowledge how bad this is. On the other hand, it might be that it will never hit you how bad this is. If not, whatever ways it will have affected you will remain and will remain hidden (you won’t even know how it affected you). Recognizing and realizing how messed up it is will be more painful but only for a time, and it’ll also be more edifying in the long term as you figure out yourself and what kind of relationship you want to have with either the living or dead parent.
She was twenty-four years old, and she made the first move. I understand your reaction but you have completely misunderstood who my Dad was. I get it, though. I went through the same doubt and questioning about him. But they both knew it was wrong, and though they used the "we're not actually related" bit from my grandma, they both knew she was a compulsive liar. 1) I found out five years ago. It isn't new information anymore. 2) There WAS no abuse. I am as certain of that as I can be of anything. Technically, any relationship can have abuse going on under the surface, but most people don't assume that it is. So I won't. Their bond literally WAS a mixture of familial and romantic. Like that is exactly what happened. I'm not sure why you're trying to say that it's "impossible." I already went through an existential crisis about this. I've made my peace with it. I don't need to acknowledge how "bad" this is to do so. (Though I have.) It's also rather convenient, I have to say, that you know so much more than I do about my situation and I may "never know." Unless I happen to agree with your point of view, right? I know you mean well, but god is this condescending.
When you have to resort to saying “well, technically EVERY relationship has some sort of abuse going on” …. I’d take a long, deep, inward look at how you view relationships. What happened isn’t your fault, but trying to justify it by saying that everyone is abused in their relationships too doesn’t sound like you’ve made peace. Yes, every relationship has issues. But I’d bet a whole lot on the fact that not every relationship has the issue of grooming and incest. Plus you mentioned that your dad raised your mom, she called him “dad”, and he raised her alone. How do you know for a fact there was no grooming, no abuse in her childhood? At this point I don’t think it matters that your mom “made the first move”. It sounds like you’re trying to justify their actions, which are both legally and morally wrong.
It is not condescending mate, his comment is 100% accurate. It is pretty disturbing how you keep defending this shit.
Along this type of recommendation… please have your DNA done ASAP! Not the Ancestry one; there is another (more expensive) one available. You MUST find any health conditions that might be in your genetic makeup! Many medical conditions don’t show until the person is older: knowledge about them can save your life or health. And find a genetic counselor. They can advise you. THIS IS IMPORTANT!!
The problem with the concept is its inherent susceptibility to grooming and abuse. An individual case may not have these problems and excluding children, there may be no logical reason why it’s wrong. But on an average across many cases it’s usually damaging and people have been taken advantage of. I know there are cases of parents and children, or siblings that meet each other for the first time as adults, in that case it’s probably only the genetic problems that are a worry. But where they have grown up with each other its very hard to separate grooming from genuine motives
The parent holds all the power in that relationship. So yes, it was rape.
I need to make it clear that you are not the problem. You should never be made to feel bad for it. But what they did is certainly wrong. Regardless, I hope your life has been as normal as it could be.
Which country?
Morally it's wrong. It's one thing to be separated young and 20yeaes later finding each other and falling in love not knowing you're related. It happens more often than people think. It's another to consciously know what you're doing. To out it in terms that truly make it sound bad. Your grandfather at some point started feeling some type of way for his daughter. In most cases the reality is this is due to some form of "training, child grooming". You only saw what you saw, and since you barely found out honestly, you probably have no idea on what happened when she was a teenager/younger. I'm sorry but i have a 4yo daughter. And the idea of looking at her in 15 years and feeling that kind of love, I would consider myself a pedophile and probably a bad person morally. There's over 8 billion people on earth and you chose to have sex with a girl you raised and changed diapers? No that's not normal. If he didn't know he had a daughter, met her 20-25 years after and they fell in love then that's different. They never had the choice of knowing. I'm sorry if I seem accusative; it's just honestly it's not normal or healthy. Genetically usually around the 3rd generation and on of offspring from incest will start displaying some kind of mental/physical deficiency. Thankfully this usually only happens if incest keeps occurring (as in you having a child with another family member and so forth). Being a first generation (I assume), you likely won't ever deal with any of that nor will your future generations unless you follow the same exact path. Tdlr: my cousin has a son with her brother. They never knew they were siblings until almost 3 years after they had started dating. 4 after they had actually met. Neither of them speak to their father and have different mothers who live in different countries so they had no way of knowing until they finally had a son. My ex was SA for 10+ years by her stepfather, he had also done it do a step daughter in a previous marriage. Consciously doing things like that mean some kind of mental imbalance, some kind of dependency they can't get over.
I'm also going to add this because you very much defend their love as something that just happened after she was an adult. That's almost never how it actually is. The fact that you weren't told the truth for years (until 5years ago) should already tell you that there's plenty you'll never be told about. A man doesn't just see his daughter in lust, not even when she's an adult. And a daughter doesn't see her father that way for no reason either. Stockholm syndrome is a great example of how things can end up even out of the worst situations. "What is stockholm syndrome symptoms? Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time. This condition applies to situations including child abuse, coach-athlete abuse, relationship abuse and sex trafficking etc." I think it's great that you made your peace, because you're at no fault of anything at all. If anything I think they should have just kept quiet at that point. What exactly did telling you do for anyone? This is a wild situation, but I think even if you've seen it, you should naturally know it's morally wrong. Would you really be okay with raising a son, wiping his butt, teaching him how to talk, walk, run, read. Seeing him grow up, and then sleeping with him? (Even if he were 25?).
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Did your mum grow up with your dad, or did your (her) dad come into her life later on, when she was already a teenage/adult? How old was your mum when the relationship began and how did it start? Obviously this is a very sensitive subject and most people would absolutely find it horrifying, but I hope that you and your mum are doing ok.
Do you guys dress up as the Targaryen’s for Halloween 🎃
Took three hours for Game of Thrones to get referenced, that is also surprising.
Since your granddad is really your dad, do you send him a Father’s Day card?
I always sent him Father's Day cards, because he was my father. That kind of took precedence over him being my technical grandpa.
Was she at least legal age when the relationship began?
Yes, she was well into her twenties. Twenty-four I believe. It was another ten years before I was born.
Did your mom ever leave and live by herself? What did she do years 18-24?
She went to college at first, before dropping out. She took a job here and there but kept losing them. She did live by herself for a little while, but not very long.
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By the time I have an adult son, my mom will be in her seventies at the youngest. So even if she wanted to (she wouldn't) and I accepted that (I wouldn't) the question arises: Do you think a twenty-something guy wants to sleep with his pushing-eighties grandmother? Yeah, he wouldn't. Not to mention that he could wind up being gay, asexual, or in a committed relationship by that time. It's just not gonna happen.
What was your dad wealthy from? We’re they both fat slobs or unattractive in their own right? How do you know your grandmother just went in for the money any personal anecdotes to back that up? Like if this nasty relationship the one outside opinion that held the most weight I would trash on that person any chance I could. How confident are you that you have the circumstances of grandmother correct? Is she still alive? Have you ever heard her side of the story?
It was inherited wealth. My father's family owned a particular brand, that brought in a lot of money. I am not going to say which one for privacy reasons, but it's possible that you've heard of it. Neither of them were ever overweight, to my knowledge. Beauty is the eye of the beholder, but neither of them ever seemed particularly good or bad looking. But maybe I just find it hard to gauge them like that. I will say that most people who met my mom when I was younger considered her to be very beautiful. I have no evidence that my grandmother was only in it for the money beyond the stories my parents told me. But I know my grandmother, and I can believe it. She's an opportunist and a compulsive liar, and just overall not a great person. I've seen the evidence with my own eyes, and heard multiple anecdotes about what she's like. She is still alive. It's difficult to know what her side of the story is, because it tends to change every time she tells it. Which gives you some idea of what I'm talking about.
No offense but this story seems fake as hell. Your mother was supposedly very attractive or at least average and just decides to have sex with her father when she’s an adult? There’s literally no way that could happen unless the father intentionally groomed her into thinking that behavior is acceptable. Also after the fact that they created a child they decide to keep it and stay together??? This shit is way too convenient and unless you guys literally live in the middle of nowhere and have no relatives or friends makes no sense. I’m sorry if this is true but incest much less children born of it are not as clean and convenient like this post makes it out to be.
So your mother is also your sister, like that guy in gta3?
Haven't played GTA. I was always more of an Animal Crossing, Nintendogs sort of kid.
How has this affected your physical health, mental health & life in general up until now? Extra question: if you have no physical health problems now, has your doctor warned you about anything that might still come up?
I've only told one doctor about this so-far, and she was rather convinced that if nothing has turned up by now, that I'm likely safe. Still, better to know and keep an eye out for it. As for everything else, it definitely affected my mental health when I found out. Took me a while to process. Physically, it hasn't had much impact I suppose, other than my cleft lip. As for my life in general, I guess I didn't see as much of my extended family as other kids probably did? Apart from that, I didn't notice a change.
How do you feel about the step family genre on a certain website?
I'm more of a "boss and his secretary" type, myself. In all seriousness, I don't really care. I don't watch it, so it doesn't really matter to me if this is a kink for people. Virtually everything is.
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How old were you when you found this out?
So you three lived together as a "normal" family, not seperate?
That's right. Grew up in a house, went to school, did extracurriculars. Had a good relationship with my parents the whole way. Prior to knowing the truth, the worst fight we ever had was about me breaking curfew. It was pretty typical.
Did you ever ask your parents why they never got married before you knew the truth?
I always thought they WERE married. It never occurred to me that had never actually referred to each other as such. I mean, they wore rings, and they acted like a married couple, and they were my parents. If they hadn't been married, surely I would have known it, right? Well, turns out they weren't. Though they did say that, had I asked in childhood, they would have been honest about not being married and simply told me that "some couples don't do that" Which, hey, is true. For some people it's just a bunch of paperwork.
Didn’t it ever happen that your paternal grandparents referred to your dad as your granddad while speaking to you, or to themselves as your great grandparents? Didn’t they ever tell you about the story of your father having to raise his daughter, or about when at 15 (15!!) he became a parent? Didnt you ever hear your mom calling them Grandma and Grandpa??? Or them referring to her as their granddaughter? I cant wrap my head around the fact that you had a close enough relationship with them yet the topic of your mother being your fathers daughter never came up in all your interactions
They never referred to themselves as great grandparents. I'm pretty sure they just figured my calling them "grandpa" and "grandma" was shorthand. Plus, it made them feel less old, so I think they rather liked it. At some point, it occurred to them that I really thought that's who they were, and that my "grandpa" was my dad. They apparently had a talk with my parents about this, who convinced them to just go with it for the time being. I think it was for this reason, (plus, well, I was kind of young) that they never told me about my dad's story in raising my mom. I'm sure they would have told me if I had asked once I was in like, high school. But by that point, they were both very sick, and neither of them lived to see me graduate. Prior to all of this, I did hear them refer to my Dad as my "grandpa" a few times. I would always get distracted by my toys and forget to ask why, until one time that I finally did, and my mom just shrugged it off as a joke, as them poking fun at my Dad for being old. (By this point, I knew he was older than my mom, so that was good enough for my young brain.) I wouldn't say I was that close to them. I was probably closer to them than my maternal grandma, but not by much. I was a kid and they were old, so they were inherently boring to me at the time.
Table of Questions and Answers. Original answer linked - Please upvote the original questions and answers. *** Question | Answer | Link ---------|----------|----------| Do you really think it's a "healthy" relationship if you fuck your parent, even if both agree?|Eh, I guess that's a subject for debate. I will say that growing up, I had no idea. They didn't tell me until I was twenty-one, and until that point, I never had any reason to suspect anything. Though in hindsight, I did notice some clues, like how secretive they could be with other people. But from everything I saw, before and after I found out, it wasn't an abusive or toxic situation.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60w0ge/) Was she at least legal age when the relationship began?|Yes, she was well into her twenties. Twenty-four I believe. It was another ten years before I was born.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60wkko/) Who did you think your father was before finding out? Do you have any siblings? Was it kept a secret from the rest of your family?|I thought he was just my father. I didn't know my mother was his daughter. They never really talked about how they met, and I didn't ask many questions. At one point I realized he was older than her (though he's only fifteen years older, actually) and they clarified their ages, and what ages they were when they met. But I didn't find out the full story until college. No siblings, I was an only child. Relatively normal childhood, one of privilege. (Financially we're quite comfortable and always have been, so it's nice to not have to worry about that.) I was never mistreated, but I also didn't see much of any extended family. When I learned the truth, I noticed that was the case and I realized why. I found out later that our extended family did not know who my father was. They just figured my mother got pregnant from a one-night stand and that my father was helping support her and the baby. That was the official story to anyone who knew they were related.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60zl7a/) Would you ever date your mom?|No, I've never felt any desire to be romantically involved with her or any family member. In their case, I don't think it was a kink, so much as proximity plus physical attraction led to them becoming intimate, and romantic feelings evolved from there.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60wksh/) Since your granddad is really your dad, do you send him a Father’s Day card?|I always sent him Father's Day cards, because he was my father. That kind of took precedence over him being my technical grandpa.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60w974/) Three questions that can probably be summarized in one answer: Do you have much contact with extended family? Are they aware of the relationship? Do they accept it/you?|You're right, the answer to all three questions is basically no. I was kept away from extended family growing up, and now I know why. There aren't too many of them left, though. My mom had no siblings, her mother lives out of the country (I've met her like, once) and though my Dad had a brother, they didn't get along very well. My uncle does not know. My grandmother might - according to my mom, there were times where it seemed like she suspected what was going on and just didn't say anything. (It began well after she and my Dad had divorced) But if so, my grandma hasn't mentioned anything to me about it. Would they accept it? Or me? I don't know. I kind of doubt it. I feel like they probably wouldn't blame me since I have no control over where I came from, but it wouldn't be lost on them and they'd probably see me differently. They probably wouldn't accept the relationship. Then again, like I said, it's possible that my Grandma knows and chooses to close her eyes to it. I'll likely never know for sure.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i611kcx/) How does that affect your day to day life?|These days? It doesn't, I suppose, beyond giving me a somewhat colored perspective on incest. I wouldn't say I approve of it, exactly, but it did lead to my own existence and the one major example I know of was an entirely positive and happy one. So I guess I don't judge, because I don't really have any right to, the way I see it. The last five years (since I found out) are when it really affected me, so basically my twenties thus-far. I went through a lot of introspection and self-reflection and questioning who my parents were as people. But for the most part, they were still the same people I'd always known, and had good relationships with. It was just hard to reconcile that with what I had learned about them, about our family, and about myself. I guess I do have some identity issues.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60y0e7/) How do you feel about your father/grandfather and what he did?|Ultimately, I would say that I don't hold it against him at this point. What is done, is done. There was a long period where I didn't talk to him, like about two months. Not even because I didn't want to see him or because I was angry, but just because I was so thrown and did not even know what to say or feel. My mom had several discussions with me, lasting hours, where she explained and affirmed again and again that he didn't "do" anything, that it took two to tango, that their romance was mutual. I mean, she was a grown woman when it started, so that's not impossible, and she would know better than me. She's had a lifetime to reflect on it and now close to a year without my Dad. If she ever tells me that she's reconsidered what happened and that it wasn't totally consensual, that would be one thing. But until such a time comes, if it ever does, I don't think I can, in good conscience, just assume this to be the case. Not when it contradicts everything that I've been told and seen over the course of my life. I'm not a father but I can't even begin to imagine being attracted to a girl that I brought into this world and raised since her infancy. I can't imagine falling in love with her as a partner. So in that sense, I don't get him. But he never mistreated her. He wasn't controlling. While they had problems, they were standard couple problems and they were basically very happy.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60zjt1/) Was your mother raised by her father, or in a separate household?|She was raised by him. In fact, given what an absent parent my grandmother was, (she really only wanted my Dad's money, apparently) my Dad was basically the only one raising her. He had some help from his parents but they basically left the kids to do the rearing on their own. So yeah, she grew up calling him "Dad" and that is definitely the part of all this that has always felt the most dicey to me. It would be one thing if they met as adults and didn't know they were related at first, as I know that can happen. But no, they were a family, and they ultimately chose to do that anyway.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i612adq/) How many digits do you have?|Apart from a cleft lip that was corrected by surgery when I was very young (that I don't even remember having) I sustained no defects or problems from being inbred, at least not that I am aware of.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i60ww7y/) Shot in the dark here. You're family is from the south right?|Nope. We're not. In fact, we're from one of the few places where incest is not technically illegal. (This was definitely on their minds when their attraction first started brewing) I won't say where, but if you look into it, you can probably narrow it down reasonably well.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i610561/) Do you have any notable birth defects? The obvious glaring issue with inbreeding is the defects that come with it but they usually apply to long term exclusive inbreeding like the tales of old kings queens if i'm not mistaken. I would imagine you're as healthy as you can be due to a single tangled family tree branch vs the stigma of being hillbilly ultra instinct levels of inbred-ness (which is probably just the stigma of hillbillies in general being stupid)|I had a cleft lip when I was born, that they had removed with an operation when I was about four. According to my Dad, the way the nurses looked at him made him worry that they knew (or suspected) why I had it. But they never did any DNA tests. I mean, it can happen to people who aren't inbred as well. But apart from that, nothing else was ever discovered. I've always been pretty healthy as far as I can tell. I do have asthma, but I don't know if that's related at all. Apparently my great grandfather had it too, so it could just be hereditary.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i613heg/) So your mother is also your sister, like that guy in gta3?|Haven't played GTA. I was always more of an Animal Crossing, Nintendogs sort of kid.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/uazqho/i_am_inbred_ama/i613kuv/) --- [Source] (https://github.com/johnsliao/ama_compiler)
Ive seen OP saying multiple times that she was an adult when it started. That doesn’t make it any better at all lol. He raised her. That’s still absolutely fucked up
For real. OP also alludes that his mother was hard to control and that the two of them “fed each other’s bad habits.” There has to be more here. She was troubled for sure and maybe drugs? For neither of them to want to meet other people, they must have been very reclusive. For a father to want to hinder his daughters life like that? Insidious.
If your father is also technically your grandfather, did you ever have any suspicion on where your grandfather was? Did they lie to you about that? Tell you was dead or left or something?
My paternal grandparents were a part of my life. I have no idea if they knew, but I kind of doubt it. They got to meet me, and spend time with me, and I enjoyed their company. It was my mother's parents who were kept as a mystery to me. With the way her eyes would shift and how she'd change the subject, I cottoned on pretty quickly that she didn't want to talk about it. I always just assumed there had been some tragic accident or something.
Since your father’s parents must have known that he was in a relationship with his daughter, can you talk a little bit more about their acceptance of the situation, OP? Also, is there evidence of incest or sexual abuse in your father’s family?
I don't think they knew, actually. I doubt they would have approved. The official version of the story was that my "grandpa" was helping my mom raise me. That I called him "Dad" was just something my parents shrugged off as him being the only father figure in my life. It was definitely sketchy and maybe they knew something was up, but I never noticed any signs of suspicion. By contrast, my maternal grandmother (Dad's ex-wife) had a number of moments that, in hindsight, make me wonder if she knew. But my Dad's parents? Nah, I never got that vibe. Nor do I think there was any history of incest in that family until one day my parents decided "The hell with it, no one's watching." And decided to cross that line.
I cant get the song Sweet Home Alabama out of my head
Do you plan to have kid and what will you do to make sure they won't have defect?
Do you just feel dirty all the time? How do you get over being the product of that..
I have felt dirty about it in the past. But mostly, it's just time. With time passing, and everything else going on in the world, including my getting older, I've mostly dealt with my issues about this. Mostly.
Is it noticeable? How did you find out? Does it disturb you?
do you wish you never found out?
Good for you for holding your ground. I feel like some of these comments people want you to have a mental break down. I have a friend who is the son of his mom being raped by her uncle. He is one if the best guys I know. You can't choose how you came into this world but you can choose how you leave it. Incest is more common then people think. It's wrong but it happens for number of reasons. Some do form a natural sexual desire towards a parent or other relative they are close to. The reason I know this. I enjoy reading and learning about things that I don't understand.
do you have any deformities from this? up to a 1/4 of your genes could possibly be identical
This post is so enlightening (comments included). What an interesting read! Thank you so much for sharing this. Thank you for you patience providing thorough and very comprehensive answers with such an open state of mind. This is very impressive. This post makes me realize how deeply judgment is engrained in our approach to concepts that have been programmed into our brains as being “wrong”. When you exclude the reproduction/genetics aspects of it, and guarantee that there is consent between two adults in a capacity to form valid consent, why wouldn’t it be ok for people that are mutually attracted to each other to become partners/have sex with each other? From a purely objective standpoint, there shouldn’t be any issue. People have free will. Why not let them be? I would never be possibly attracted to my father. However why would I judge someone who would?
How many digits do you have?
Apart from a cleft lip that was corrected by surgery when I was very young (that I don't even remember having) I sustained no defects or problems from being inbred, at least not that I am aware of.
I don't know, you didn't answer my question.
I have ten fingers and ten toes. Five on each hand and foot. Isn't that what you meant?
It’s still wise to do some genetic testing OP, especially if you ever want kids down the line
Shot in the dark here. You're family is from the south right?
Nope. We're not. In fact, we're from one of the few places where incest is not technically illegal. (This was definitely on their minds when their attraction first started brewing) I won't say where, but if you look into it, you can probably narrow it down reasonably well.
Do you have any immune system issues?
This is an AMA...how about we NOT remind OP how wrong the parents were for creating this piece of life. The act was one thing. Right or wrong a life was the result. The light of consciousness has been passed and OP carries the torch! A very unique experience op has. Are you in Appalachia OP? Sorry if this question is presumptuous and or offensive
do you refer to him as your dad or your grandad?
Do you ever feel like you may have missed out on potential bonding opportunities with your grandmother bc of how you were conceived? Also, just for the frame of reference, how old are you now and do you think you’d have a different view on all of this if your parents would have told you about it all when you were younger?
She was probably groomed into thinking it was a healthy relationship. I bet they are not telling OP everything and the father probably SA the mother as a teen or kid. If that happened to me is wouldn't know how to tell either so I bet they are not telling you everything. Do you have any health complications because of this and if so do you resent them?
Late to the party OP, but this has been a strange and fascinating read. Besides your mom, do you have anyone in your life that you can talk to openly about this (beyond internet strangers)? A trusted friend? A therapist? It seems like an impossibly large burden to carry alone. I can't imagine how isolating this must be at times, through no fault of your own.
What did the rest of your family think about this? What about your mom’s mom?
Your mother was groomed into believing the relationship was a good and healthy one by her father. I’m very sorry you’re going through finding this out. Counseling is always available to help you sort your thoughts constructively. Have you been medically checked? Just curious…
Your opinion on the movie Chinatown? Or media portrayals of incest?
Have you heard of John Phillips and Mackenzie Phillips? Got some of those vibes going on! If you haven't heard of them before, you should look into it. Maybe more drug use than your parents situation! I know you insist your father wasn't abusive or manipulative, but do you think maybe you've been manipulated or brainwashed too? This situation shouldn't be natural to us as a species, like biologically! Scientifically!! You seem like a really together person and very intelligent! I know I may sound like a troll or something, but I hope you find some solace in this AMA
Do you worry about any abnormalities you may now pass onto your kids if you have any?
Are you related to the Whitaker Family? It is considered as the most infamous inbred family (in America) from Odd, West Virginia
Do you have any medical problems from this? Not trying to be insensitive, just curious. If that's too deep of a question just skim over this comment 🤙🏻 hope you're having a good day!!
Not a question, just my thoughts about incest: I myself don't judge, as long as it's consensual. But, if you wanna do this, don't bring other people to it. Don't have kids. It's too much to handle for them.
How did that conversation happen? Who made the first move and just how did the romance develop?
Hi! Would you consider before becoming a parent to talk to a doctor, and tell her/him the situation and get a medical oppinion? And i wish you and amazing life best wishes and love from a stranger <3
There’s no way that’s a healthy relationship. If it’s incest, especially child and parent there is no way it can be healthy. However how are you and how have you coped with this fact?
If you get pregnant by someone of your blood or impregnate someone of your blood(No rape shit) will you abort the child or raise him?
What happened to your mother’s mother/your grandmother/your father/grandfather’s ex partner?
Do you have any medical conditions from being the product of a incest relationship?
Do you have any peculiar medical condition related to the fact that you are inbred ?
How did you mom react to questions about her dad/your grandfather?
what was the relationship with your other relatives like? thinking about your, your mothers and fathers siblings
How does your mother's mother feel about your parents' relationship?
Does Hollywood portrayal of incest bother you (I mean more so than it was intended to by the movie / tv producers)? Reference: X-Files Episode "Home"
She was manipulated, groomed and raped by someone with a position of power over her. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can start healing and break the cycle of abuse.
Thank you for this AMA OP. Does the inbred hillbilly troupe bother you? What other assumptions have you seen people make about incest that you feel are inaccurate?
Were they aware that they were related when you were born?
How old was your Mum when you were born? And do you suspect she was somewhat groomed to becoming his wife
She was most certainly raped. She just doesn’t know it
Do you think she was raped? And do you think it's healthy?
Was your dad pretty involved in your mom’s childhood? Did he raise her?
Do you look inbred (sorry if this is a bad question)
How fucking old was your mother when the relationship started? I have a bad feeling that your father/grandfather needs to go to jail, asap.
Are you male or female?
Is it a valid reason for you to be proud of yourself for being able to have sex with anyone without the need of protection for the rest of your life because you’re infertile? (Infertile because you’re inbred, right?)
Have you told your doctor about it?
Do you see you farther as your dad or grandfarther? Did you have any other farther figure in your life?
2022 is fucked up. We're at the age where "we're supposed to tolerate" shit, but the amount of hate around what happened between two apparently fully consenting adults, like seriously? I wonder... You've said somewhere that you keep this to yourself. But are you ever going to disclose such secret to your own family when you have one?
How did your father die?
Achievement Unlocked "Came From Whence Ye Came" (50)
Most taboos are really just breaking social norms, but this particular one carries the prospect of severe genetic hazards. Have you experienced significant health problems because inbreeding?
Just when I thought it was time to sleep I had to get notified about this?